: Jag XF or CTS?



MaxBuck
05-09-13, 12:23 AM
I'm right now looking at options - 2009-10 CTS or 2009-10 Jaguar XF. The two cars are more similar than one might think. I'd be able to get AWD in the CTS, but not the XF (was introduced by Jaguar in 2013). Both can be found in good condition for under $30k (2010 Jag it's a stretch). Much easier to find nav in the Jag, and that's an option I will want. The CTS won't allow me to Bluetooth stream audio from my Android phone, but thinking I can simply use the USB hookup for that purpose. From what I can tell the CTS with 3.6L GDI performs on a par with the 4.2L base Jaguar V8, while the 5L Jag will blow those two cars away (at a price that's getting outside my budget).

I'm thinking service will be substantially more expensive on the Jag, but not sure about overall reliability or ownership experience. I'm looking to get input from anyone who may have owned both, or had experience with both. Any help out there? Thanks in advance!

snofun3
05-09-13, 01:56 AM
Owned an '08 CTS AWD Premium (whatever it was - had everything). Now have 10 Jag XF Portfolio. There is no comparison whatsoever between the two vehicles. None.

First, the CTS was a garage queen, constantly at the dealer. The Jag has been so refreshing, in that it's had a couple of issues, but nothing at all like the CTS. No ultra-squeak roof, no exploding lumbar support, no air bag lights flashing, no timing chain replacements, no seat ventilation not working, no rattling back deck, no dash full of squeaks, no rotors constantly needing replacement, it just went on and on and on. Even if the Caddy hadn't always been in for repair, there still isn't a comparison in the real world.

Cost of repair? Don't know - Jags have 6 year warranty, so everything's been on the house, and the CTS was also under warranty (thank goodness)
Service - My Caddy dealer (Bayview in Fort Laud) was very good, but Alpine Jag in F.L. takes it to another whole level. Imagine an XK loaner - (yes, really)

Remember, you're looking at a mass produced luxury car versus a somewhat limited piece that competes in the big leagues. Some differences:

Real Leather dash,
Suede a-pillars and headliner,
Heated steering wheel,
The old world smell of real leather when you open the door,
The feel of real quality leather when you sit on it
A bellowing V8 that actually hauls butt when you hit the gas instead of just making noise, with BETTER (by 2-3mpg) fuel consumption. I had the 3.6di and was always surprised at what a slug it was, while sucking gas, and after having (too many) loaners and rentals, I know it wasn't necessarily different than the norm.
A B&W sound system that sounds like music versus noise, (even the Jag base system is light years better than the Blose system in the CTS) Take your own CD's or ipod and confirm, (it should take about 10 seconds)
Paddle shifters that really work and let it run like a performance vehicle,
Much longer wheel basethat makes it much more of a GT car
World class brakes that slow in relation to pressure versus feeling like you're pressing harder or softer against a wall (nothing wrong with the Caddy's brakes, in fact they're good, but these are in Porsche, BMW league)
A GPS that can actually find an address,
Exclusivity versus seeing yourself on every street. Much less prone to "urbanizing" with dubs and other atrocities.
Paint quality, interior finish and materials not comparable - the real materials versus a good imitation
So cool when you press the glowing start button and the vents twirl open and the shifter rises out of the console

Caddy - Caddy controls laid out better, versus the screen you have to go though on the Jag. Outward rear visibility better in the Caddy. Although the Jag's longer, the Caddy has a bigger rear seat.

At the end of the day, no comparison whatsoever, and probably no better illustration of the phrase "you get what you pay for". I loved the CTS in spite of it being a giant PITA, and even took pictures of it the last morning I had it, but would I go back - not a chance for all of the reasons above and more (still smile everytime I see it - it's beautiful).

That being said, go for a 10 XF and not a 09, as the 4.2 is a leftover, but the 5.0L is the real deal. Great engine, and sounds so beautiful if you happen to like V8 noises :yup:.

If you really are interested in the XF, just drive both cars back-to-back, and your decision will be made instantly. Not even close, not even close.

(awaiting RAB's predictable fan boy hissy-fit)

Jagillac
05-09-13, 09:56 AM
I love my CTS coupe but I did take along hard look at the XF. Unfortunately I wanted new and I could have stretched the extra to get the Jag with the options I wanted (almost all :-( ) but then I couldn't stretch the insurance. The yearly cost for my coupe when I got it was $2,100 but the Jag was $5,400.

I LOVE the Jag and always will. It is an amazing ride and drive. Looks gorgeous too but in the end I couldn't afford it. That being said I love my coupe a lot but if you can afford it grab the Jag. But if you can't you still won't go wrong with the CTS. Both of them are great cars and the 08s had problems because its the first year but in the same boat so did the 09 Jag.

Your opening an unmarked box you don't know what's inside until you have it. Oh and don't skimp out. Get as many features as you can get on both. The more you have I find the happier you are. :-P

Good luck

angelbones
05-09-13, 11:30 AM
Maxbuck, you are sort of answering your own questions about cost and other issues, but let me add my 2 cents. First, I have not driven a newer Jag, but have only explored a build of one on their website (more interested in an XK but that price is out of reach for now). I'm actually very surprised that there is not more discussion about Jags on here and everyone seems to compare our cars to the Germans when complaining about or praising the CTS, when Jaguar should be in the mix as well with those discussions.

Anyway, here's my take. Snofun brings up interesting points, but my only quibble with his argument is that he owned a 2008 CTS and 2010 XF. I don't think it's a fair comparison not only for the two year difference in technological updates, but more importantly the well documented issues that the 2008 had. If snofun had a 2010 CTS, it would at least be a closer comparison. He also makes other great points that I can't argue with and that should be considered. And if it were based on looks alone between these two sedans, I'm afraid I'd choose the Jag. Ah, but looks aren't the only thing in this equation as shown by your original post. Bang for buck, features, reliability, seem to be major considerations, as well they should be. Jagillac brings up a great, often overlooked issue: insurance. I know when I was comparing the various luxury brands, the Cadillac insurance was always the cheapest. I can also tell you, anecdotally, that if you're buying a used Jag, expect to pay more for parts and labor. Finally, on reliability, you may be aware that Jaguar has a terrible reputation for reliability and having known a couple owners of older ones, there's a good reason for that. However, I believe that Jaguar reliability as well as 2010+ Cadillac reliability are at least even with each other at this point, although I'm sure you'll find a couple semi-lemons with either brand you choose.

arw1510
05-09-13, 03:41 PM
I could not fit in the Jag, center console was too high. no way i would drive 25,000 miles a year in that car so ti was an easy decision for me

jeffc83
05-09-13, 04:02 PM
To each his own...I disliked the interior layout of the jag but the rest of the car is very nice. I'm satisfied with my 08 knowing its a first year and has had less than half the issues the other 08s are running into! Will be trading soon but am having a tough time making up my mind...may wait to see the 2014 CTS.

snofun3
05-09-13, 07:12 PM
No doubt there's validity that my '08, being an early model was apparently more problem prone, but mine was just off the hook as far as problems.

Also, just for full disclosure, the Jag has had an issue with a rattling sunroof mechanism (locktighted all the screws - 6 months later still fine), a radiator hose that failed (replaced), and an overhead light that turns on/off by itself (twice - apparently chronic problem with the proximity "feature"), but that's it. It's been great. I see what CR says about the reliability, but honest, my problems have been like stupid small.

Regarding insurance, I went from $1,200 for the Caddy, to (get ready), $1,300 for the Jag. No biggee. You guys are really looking at big numbers. I didn't think south FL was necessarily cheap, so I'm surprised. Mid 50's clean record.

I don't buy new, so pricewise, if you're looking at a newish CTS, you might be surprised how close the difference is. I paid $41,000 for an 18 month old, 22,000mile CPO car, in "Portfolio" trim (EVERYTHING!), with additional upgrades of Bowers and Wilkins (B&W) 2,200watt sound system (really good, but still sometimes lacking - the new Meridian is better), and 20 inch (factory upgrade) wheels that seem to scrape on every corner. You could pay that for a year old CTS, and there's truly no comparison.

jeffc83
05-09-13, 08:50 PM
No doubt there's validity that my '08, being an early model was apparently more problem prone, but mine was just off the hook as far as problems.

Also, just for full disclosure, the Jag has had an issue with a rattling sunroof mechanism (locktighted all the screws - 6 months later still fine), a radiator hose that failed (replaced), and an overhead light that turns on/off by itself (twice - apparently chronic problem with the proximity "feature"), but that's it. It's been great. I see what CR says about the reliability, but honest, my problems have been like stupid small.

Regarding insurance, I went from $1,200 for the Caddy, to (get ready), $1,300 for the Jag. No biggee. You guys are really looking at big numbers. I didn't think south FL was necessarily cheap, so I'm surprised. Mid 50's clean record.

I don't buy new, so pricewise, if you're looking at a newish CTS, you might be surprised how close the difference is. I paid $41,000 for an 18 month old, 22,000mile CPO car, in "Portfolio" trim (EVERYTHING!), with additional upgrades of Bowers and Wilkins (B&W) 2,200watt sound system (really good, but still sometimes lacking - the new Meridian is better), and 20 inch (factory upgrade) wheels that seem to scrape on every corner. You could pay that for a year old CTS, and there's truly no comparison.

I wish you hadn't received such a crappy CTS but am pleased to hear that you found what you wanted and went for it! The sound system in the Jag is just plain sick when compared to the CTS "premium" Bose sound system. (in a good way of course) Granted, I do think the CTS sound system is adequate for my needs BUT would love it if Cadillac switched to a better brand.

Regarding insurance rates, that's not a bad increase at all. When I had my insurance company run rates on a 2013 ATS 2.0T AWD Performance, it came up just about the same at 85 dollars more per year. (a similar quote was provided to me on a 2013 CTS 3.6 AWD Performance...95 dollars more)

Thanks for your honesty as well throughout all your posts. (not trying to stir the pot with others here) Hope to see ya around the forum!

MaxBuck
05-09-13, 10:57 PM
Drove a 5.0L Jag today. Wow. Incredible power; connected to the road even better than my old Bimmer 545i. If it were closer in price to the CTS it would be a no-brainer, but I'm looking at minimum $12k additional to get into the 2010 5.0L Jag vs. a nice 2009 GDI AWD CTS with nav. And honestly, the Caddy's Bose system was better than the B&W in the Jag (I was very disappointed in the sound system, though everything else was just incredible). Neither one allows Bluetooth streaming of music from my Android phone, but both have USB so no probs there.

Probably will pull the trigger on the CTS tomorrow (per wife's likely direction), but will think in 3 years about that Jag again. No bad decision possible in this one, I'm thinking. Thanks loads for all the valuable thoughts!

Twentybucks
05-10-13, 10:04 AM
I just read an article the other day that identified cars that depreciate the fastest and the Jag, I forget which model, is at the top of the list. The Jag they looked at cost ~$60,000 new and in five years was basically worthless. The cost of ownership for 5 years was something like $80,000. I'll see if I can find the article and post a link to it.

snofun3
05-10-13, 10:49 AM
I just read an article the other day that identified cars that depreciate the fastest and the Jag, I forget which model, is at the top of the list. The Jag they looked at cost ~$60,000 new and in five years was basically worthless. The cost of ownership for 5 years was something like $80,000. I'll see if I can find the article and post a link to it.

Whish is why you can buy a used one and get twice the car for the same money. Simple really.

Twentybucks
05-10-13, 11:11 AM
Maybe so snofun but a car that depreciates that fast and by that much makes me want to think it turns into a POS very quickly.

Tbbt
05-10-13, 01:26 PM
Doesn't look like Jag's have really changed from past problems. Cost as much to maintain as it does to buy them.:stirpot:

Your mileage may vary though!

snofun3
05-10-13, 05:21 PM
Maybe so snofun but a car that depreciates that fast and by that much makes me want to think it turns into a POS very quickly.

Well at least that's better than the CTS I had that was a POS from day 1.

And if they depreciate so quickly, then how come we have guys here saying they can't afford? Maybe time to check what the facts are, and maybe look at it from a % point of view. My 08 CTS sold for 53k new, and only had a 24k residual, or less than half 3 years later. Sorry to burst your bubble, but a 09 (or 10) XF is % wise, holding much better. Sorry.

RAB
05-10-13, 06:51 PM
I like almost everything about the Jaguar XF. Not loving the look of its front grille, but could probably learn to live with it.
If I was in the market for another car I'd consider the Jag XF along with the BMW 5 series and upcoming 4 series Coupe.
My '11 CTS hasn't given me any trouble so far, and I still like/enjoy the car - therefore see no reason to change vehicles at this time.

OMG
05-10-13, 07:02 PM
I like almost everything about the Jaguar XF. Not loving the look of its front grille, but could probably learn to live with it.
If I was in the market for another car I'd consider the Jag XF along with the BMW 5 series and upcoming 4 series Coupe.
My '11 CTS hasn't given me any trouble so far, and I still like/enjoy the car - therefore see no reason to change vehicles at this time. Whatever you get hope you'll consider a 3rd gen CTS, the community needs helpful people like you. Although the current gen 5 series is a wonderful car and I wouldn't mind one but it will be a long time I replace my CTS.

angelbones
05-10-13, 08:07 PM
Since we're talking about cars we would consider, I thought I'd post this link about 25 cars worth waiting for.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/25-cars-worth-waiting-for-20142017-feature

Since I'll be sticking with a coupe regardless, I've narrowed my choices down to the BMW 4 series, the SRT Barracuda, and two Cadillacs, the ELR, and the ATS coupe (not listed but we know it's coming). Since most of those in the article are "renderings" I'll wait and see what piques my interest in a couple years. (Truth be told, my first choice would be the Alpha but that's too far out of the budget). Also, as a former Grand National owner, I'll be keeping my eye on that as well, but I fear it may not live up to expectations.

MaxBuck
05-16-13, 10:58 AM
Ended up with the CTS! A 2009 AWD, 21,000 miles, direct-injection with premium luxury package and Blue Diamond tricoat for $22,900. Absolutely pristine.

As my wife said, this may be the single greatest bargain purchase I have ever made. I expect the police to be at my door any day with a felony warrant.

jeffc83
05-16-13, 01:32 PM
Ended up with the CTS! A 2009 AWD, 21,000 miles, direct-injection with premium luxury package and Blue Diamond tricoat for $22,900. Absolutely pristine.

As my wife said, this may be the single greatest bargain purchase I have ever made. I expect the police to be at my door any day with a felony warrant.

Congrats! You made an excellent choice!!!

Twentybucks
05-16-13, 04:52 PM
Congrats! Here is the statement about the JAG depreciation rate:

The Jaguar XJ may not only be pricey to buy, but it turns out it is also expensive to own. According to IntelliChoice, the 2013 Jaguar XJ loses $52,014 of its value in five years and has a complete cost of ownership of $92,175 for five years.

Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/car-depreciation-models-lose-value-1.aspx#ixzz2TUFxqsT9
Follow us: @Bankrate on Twitter | Bankrate on Facebook

----------

How about a picture!

snofun3
05-16-13, 11:20 PM
Probably should be careful how far you want to get on this- this is what Forbes says regarding resale, and yes, there's two Jags, and, oh, oh my, 3 Caddys:

Forbes List Of 10 Worst Residual Valued Luxury Cars - Kelley Blue Book Values

10. Cadillac SRX V8
MSRP: $43,870
Residual Value After Five Years: 27 percent*

9. Ford Expedition V8 4WD
MSRP: $32,895
Residual Value After Five Years: 27 percent

8. Cadillac DTS V8
MSRP: $41,990
Residual Value After Five Years: 26 percent*

7. Cadillac STS V6
MSRP: $42,765
Residual Value After Five Years: 26 percent*

6. Lincoln MKZ AWD
MSRP: $31,765
Residual Value After Five Years: 26 percent*

5. Mercedes-Benz E550
MSRP: $59,775
Residual Value After Five Years: 26 percent*

4. Jaguar S-Type V6
MSRP: $49,000
Residual Value After Five Years: 25 percent*

3. Jaguar X-Type Sedan and Wagon
MSRP: 34,995
Residual Value After Five Years: 25 percent

2. Mercury Grand Marquis LS
MSRP: $30,320
Residual Value After Five Years: 23 percent*

1. Lincoln Town Car
MSRP: $42,985
Residual Value After Five Years: 17 percent*

And, let's be careful regarding exactly what year CTS' are POS. Sure my horrible '08 was first year, but check out all the 09, 10 and 11's that continue to have myriad problems here. You'd figure after 3 or 4 years they'd have figured out how to cure the vibration problems. Let's see, here's the top thread from Wagonhead: 2010 CTS Front End Vibration!!! I need it to Stop!!, Oh, a 2010, that's third year of production - right?

or maybe DaPurpleRT's pleading in: "Please Read, Please Help", where the car is captioned as "Automobile(s): 2009 Cadillac CTS4 (Quality & Reliability Nightmare)", and we could go op and on. That would be second year, eh?

I loved my CTS while I had it, but it was a really miserable experience, and spent as much time in the dealer bay as in my garage, and being first year doesn't seem to matter much from what I see here, with 09, and 10 ++ well represented.

The Jag has been refreshingly dealer and service-free in comparison to the Caddy, and the level of performance, quality of materials and fit and finish aren't even close to being in the same world.

Look at what the guy here got - "A 2009 AWD, 21,000 miles, direct-injection with premium luxury package and Blue Diamond tricoat for $22,900"

So, what kind of drubbing do you think the seller took if this fellow bought it for $23k! Before getting too snooty about other resale values, start thinking about YOURS is worth ( :helpless:).

Twentybucks
05-17-13, 09:05 AM
Maybe you're the one who should have been careful when you came out and bashed the CTS right off. Anybody who thinks $92,175 to own a car for 5 years must like taking it in the shorts.

Tbbt
05-17-13, 09:12 AM
It's obvious that snofun3 is just having too much fun bashing the CTS. I suggest that we IGNORE his posts and maybe he will crawl back under his Jag and leave this site.

Just my 2 cents. I'm guilty of responding to his posts too.

Marv

MaxBuck
05-17-13, 09:54 AM
I really don't care how much the previous owner of my car took it in the shorts. I've taken it in the shorts myself, on a car that was phenomenal (BMW 545i). So the quality of the car and the amount it depreciates are essentially unrelated.

Look at the Toyota Camry. Hardly depreciates at all, but I'd never want to own one. Both the CTS and the Jag are terrific autos (and honestly I think the Jag is more terrific), but there are lemons in both populations. So what? I'm happy with my choice.

MoFex
05-17-13, 10:08 AM
During my 30+ years of car ownership I purchased many cars, most of the brand new. The depreciation was never factor in my decision making process. NEVER! I always went for a car I liked and could afford. Period.

gohawks63
05-17-13, 10:18 AM
During my 30+ years of car ownership I purchased many cars, most of the brand new. The depreciation was never factor in my decision making process. NEVER! I always went for a car I liked and could afford. Period.

Ditto that.

Twentybucks
05-17-13, 10:38 AM
It's obvious that snofun3 is just having too much fun bashing the CTS. I suggest that we IGNORE his posts and maybe he will crawl back under his Jag and leave this site.

Just my 2 cents. I'm guilty of responding to his posts too.

Marv

I can never understand why people who no longer own a particular vehicle enjoy coming back to a forum and bash their previous car on a forum dedicated to people who happen to like and are enthusiastic about their vehicles.

gohawks63
05-17-13, 12:10 PM
I can never understand why people who no longer own a particular vehicle enjoy coming back to a forum and bash their previous car on a forum dedicated to people who happen to like and are enthusiastic about their vehicles.

Ditto that too. No one asking you to be a fan boy, but if you can't add anything constructive to the conversation then move on. I still participate on the Acura forums. I will be critical when need be, but also try to add positive contributions to a debate or discussion. If you can't do that then I wonder why do you return?

Ramv
05-18-13, 01:07 AM
Add to the list pos cars that hold their value, Late model civics. Total carp yet they seem to be the same price through out the cycle. I don't think it's a reason to buy. The Cts is a bargain if you buy slightly used as most of the deprecation is year one.

I have yet to see a jag that has the visual impact and uniqueness of a CTS coupe.

gohawks63
05-18-13, 06:48 AM
Add to the list pos cars that hold their value, Late model civics. Total carp yet they seem to be the same price through out the cycle. I don't think it's a reason to buy. The Cts is a bargain if you buy slightly used as most of the deprecation is year one.

I have yet to see a jag that has the visual impact and uniqueness of a CTS coupe.

How can you say a Civic is total crap? It has been consistently been one of the most reliable vehicles while offering a reasonable amount of sportiness and value compared to the other econoboxes out there? Even when Honda took some heat and cut some corners in the redesign a couple of years ago, specifically with the interiors, Consumer Reports bashed them for it, but said "it will still run forever". Honda took the criticism to heart and quickly made updates to it in the following model year. These are reasons why the Civic consistently maintains it's value over the years. It has built a reputation that has endured over all the redesigns.

You may not like the styling of it and it may not be a car that you would drive, but it is one of the most venerable cars ever made. It is far from crap.

On the flip side, while I agree with you that the CTS coupe is one of the most visually impactful cars out there, that alone does not make it a great car. It has been rated as one of the most reliable domestic cars on the road along with providing a decent amount of value, but GM and especially Cadillac, while getting better, has a long way to go to build a consistent and proven track record like Honda and especially the Civic has. You know they will be getting there when reviewers no longer put qualifiers like "best domestic model", on the accolades.

For the record, I own a CTS coupe and have never owned a Civic.

angelbones
05-18-13, 12:15 PM
Ditto that.

I'll also ditto that. I still end up getting what makes me happy. Case in point. In 2011, I was looking at the CTS coupe but it was a little too far out of my price range at that time to buy new. I ended up buying (settling on) a 2011 Altima coupe fully loaded (in fact it had most of the same luxury features as my present Caddy). I realized after 8 months that I really wanted the CTS coupe. I knew I was going to take a beating on an 8-month old car with low miles on my trade (about $7K loss), but my heart wanted the CTS and I haven't regretted it since.

pdetti
05-18-13, 12:47 PM
Just wanted to add that I considered the Jag when I purchased my '12 CTS-V. It came down to performance for me. I mean the V looks great as does the Jag. But man is the interior a mish mash is crap plastic that is almost worse than an econo car. It is so creaky and cheap inside. Hate that!!