: premium gasolene



mrkymrk65
05-06-13, 09:33 PM
I am sure this has been addressed too many times - so once more cannot hurt, I have a 2008 CTS 3.6 direct inject and just had the inject service done. It really has some squat and go now, I bought the car with 17500 0n it and now it has 34500 and I have had it for just over 14 months. Is is worth moving to the BP ultimate and staying away from the WAWA or like ....... or would a branded 93 such as shell, exon, sunnoco, and add BG every 5000 be good to go.

Mark

arw1510
05-06-13, 09:46 PM
What kind of gas was recommended as per the owners manual? I know for 2012 it's regular, so 87 does fine for me

like2drive
05-06-13, 09:50 PM
87 is recommended for me with the 3.6 non-di. I go with that and seems fine for me as well. The owners manual recommends Top Tier gasoline. On my behalf, I have been fueling at Costco so far since the car is new and now at 52k miles, no problem in this regard.

Black'10CTS4
05-07-13, 04:10 AM
When I took the '08 in for an engine light, it turned out to be a clogged injector. The GM techline guy said the direct injection engines really should be running Top Tier gas. Hit www.toptiergas.com and it lists all the brands that GM recommends. Personally, after dealing with the injector issue, we only go to Mobil or Shell.

As far as octane, the same tech said that it really doesnt matter, these engines were actually designed to run on 87 octane and the computer adjusts the timing if you run mid or premium. That being said, I run mid because thats what the owners manual recommends.

ROC OUT
05-07-13, 12:12 PM
87 is recommended for me with the 3.6 non-di. I go with that and seems fine for me as well. The owners manual recommends Top Tier gasoline. On my behalf, I have been fueling at Costco so far since the car is new and now at 52k miles, no problem in this regard.

That is correct, the owner's manual on my 2008 recommends Top Tier fuel brands. I run Chevron, Texaco, and Shell. All these have either detergent additives (Techron for Chevron and Texaco) or nitrogen-enriched additives (for Shell) that supposedly help keep the fuel system and valves cleaner. I like this idea. As for higher octane fuel, the owner's manual recommends 87 or higher octane. I have the DI system on my car and am experimenting with 87, 89, and 92 or 93 octane levels. So far, I have not seen much of a difference with 87 versus 92 or 93 octane but will keep changing until I am convinced that there is not the slightest difference in running one grade of octane fuel over another. Now, one other issue that you did not ask but I will offer my opinion on is which oil brand to use. GM recommends Mobil 1 full synthetic at 5W 30. I have been reading about a comparison of Mobil 1 versus the relatively new Pennzoil Ultra Synthetic 5W 30. This Pennzoil synthetic is supposed to keep the pistons and engine up to 25% cleaner than Mobil 1 synthetic. So, next oil change, I will be switching to Pennzoil Ultra in my '08 CTS (which I have only been owning for 1 month). I use it in my 2000 Camaro SS 5.7L LS1 engine and like it so far. I may have been sucked into the advertising-hype with the additives, etc. of gasoline and oil fluids but there should be some merit to the oil company claims. I know, all gasoline comes from the same place. But, it is how the fuel is refined and enhanced that allows me to justify spending a few more cents a gallon for a better quality fuel for my vehicles.

mrkymrk65
05-07-13, 01:43 PM
thank you, i do sometimes get caught up in the octane race days of old...... those days of youth and all, BP seems to be the fuel of choice from what i hear its just so many, the only consistency is stay away from convenience stuff (cheap)

The_Judge
05-07-13, 06:25 PM
Search the forum for Top Tier Gas -- many people believe it's nothing more than advertising hype. The primary claim has to do with detergents in the gas, which ALL manufactures use, whether or not they choose to PAY to join the consortium behind the name so they can use it in their advertising.

Wikipedia has a pretty good article on it, pro and con: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

Sandy Eggo
05-08-13, 01:48 PM
The term "Premium", when referring to gas is a misnomer. What makes it different than "Regular" is that it can withstand a higher compression ratio without pre-detonation, or pinging. Since the compression ratio on the 3.6DI engine is as low as it is, spending the extra money on Premium doesn't benefit you. To your car, the only thing "Premium" is the price.

dreiloft
05-08-13, 01:55 PM
The term "Premium", when referring to gas is a misnomer. What makes it different than "Regular" is that it can withstand a higher compression ratio without pre-detonation, or pinging. Since the compression ratio on the 3.6DI engine is as low as it is, spending the extra money on Premium doesn't benefit you. To your car, the only thing "Premium" is the price.

So it doesn't improve performance? I have run mid grade in my last two caddie's even though they recommend 87 octane.

The_Judge
05-08-13, 02:03 PM
The term "Premium", when referring to gas is a misnomer. What makes it different than "Regular" is that it can withstand a higher compression ratio without pre-detonation, or pinging. Since the compression ratio on the 3.6DI engine is as low as it is, spending the extra money on Premium doesn't benefit you. To your car, the only thing "Premium" is the price.

You're only half right. True, "premium" gasoline has additives that enable it to be compressed more than "regular" or lower octane gasoline, which would ignite prematurely due to the compression. Such premature ignition causes knock and reduces the effective power of the engine.

However, the compression ratio in the 3.6DI engine is very high -- 11.5 to 1. Despite that, it can run on regular without prematurely igniting the fuel because of the direct injection system, which squirts the fuel into the combustion chamber under very high pressure at the precise moment of intended ignition.

arw1510
05-08-13, 03:16 PM
So it doesn't improve performance? I have run mid grade in my last two caddie's even though they recommend 87 octane.

short answer: no it wont.

The_Judge
05-08-13, 04:37 PM
So it doesn't improve performance? I have run mid grade in my last two caddie's even though they recommend 87 octane.

Longer answer: no, it won't; what matters is that the gasoline not ignite prior to maximum compression. Because the 3.6DI engine's design allows that to happen with 87 octane gas, using higher octane gas -- that is, gas that can be compressed more without exploding -- won't improve the engine's performance nor will it increase the power the engine produces.

There MAY be exceptions -- IF your engine is knocking, especially under hard acceleration, either switch to higher octane or, better, try a different brand or a different gas station. Older stations tend to sell more contaminated fuels as water and dirt build up in their underground tanks over time, and there may be variation between the fuels produced by different refineries or at different times.

ROC OUT
05-08-13, 06:24 PM
Search the forum for Top Tier Gas -- many people believe it's nothing more than advertising hype. The primary claim has to do with detergents in the gas, which ALL manufactures use, whether or not they choose to PAY to join the consortium behind the name so they can use it in their advertising.

Wikipedia has a pretty good article on it, pro and con: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

Judge, this article covers the relevant issues pretty thoroughly and confirms my thinking on what Top Tier fuels contribute. This article also makes the point that Top Tier fuel companies provide much more detergent additives in their fuels (whether minimum or maximum octane content) than the minimum required by the EPA - "Typically, Top Tier gasolines will contain two to three times the amount of detergent additives currently required by the EPA. The extra additives are estimated to cost less than a cent per gallon. According to its auto industry research and to automotive journalists, all vehicles will benefit from using Top Tier Detergent Gasoline over gasoline meeting the basic EPA standard. New vehicles will supposedly benefit by keeping their engine clean and running optimally, older vehicles may benefit with increased engine performance and prolonged vehicle life."

So, I think that if an individual is concerned about the efficiency and longevity of the fuel injection/system and engine damage and repair, the point is well made here that Top Tier fuel from the companies qualified to provide same is and should be the fuel of choice.

like2drive
05-08-13, 06:48 PM
Actually this is interesting - "Typically, Top Tier gasolines will contain two to three times the amount of detergent additives currently required by the EPA."
I always fill-up at Costco and use their Clean Power gasoline. Costco provides gasoline with Clean Power (selected locations only) which according to their own words, contains five times EPA detergent requirements. Does this means that it could be considered as a Top Tier gasoline seller?

The_Judge
05-08-13, 06:59 PM
Other points of view:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2007-06-13-bad-gas-usat_N.htm?imw=Y&loc=interstitialskip

http://money.msn.com/saving-money-tips/post.aspx?post=8fa3733f-ab56-4bc7-afe7-893358cdc8b6

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Actually this is interesting - "Typically, Top Tier gasolines will contain two to three times the amount of detergent additives currently required by the EPA."
I always fill-up at Costco and use their Clean Power gasoline. Costco provides gasoline with Clean Power (selected locations only) which according to their own words, contains five times EPA detergent requirements. Does this means that it could be considered as a Top Tier gasoline seller?They can't call it "Top Tier" unless they pay the fee to the consortium that owns the brand name.

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BTW, it's kinda hard NOT to buy Top Tier gas these days. Below is a list of the manufacturers that have paid the extortion --I mean the fee to avoid NOT being on the list. And one of these companies undoubtedly makes the gas sold at any of your local independent stations, which, as noted in the USA Today article, buy their fuels from whichever of the big boys is charging the least at the time they need it.



TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers:





USA
Canada


76 Stations
Chevron Canada


Aloha Petroleum
Esso


Chevron
Petro-Canada


Conoco
Shell Canada


CountryMark



Entec Stations



Exxon



Hawaii Fueling Network (HFN)



Holiday Stationstores, Inc.



Kwik Trip / Kwik Star



MFA Oil Co.



Mileage Stations



Mobil



Ohana Fuels



Phillips 66



Quik Trip



Rebel Oil



Road Ranger



Severson Oil



Shell



Texaco



Tri-Par Oil Co.



U.S. Oil

Cadillac Cust Svc
05-09-13, 10:56 AM
Hi All,

I love seeing and reading all these interactions. These forums are a great way to share input and knowledge, such as gasoline. If anyone has questions or concerns on vehicle issues, please reach out to us!

Sincerely,

Laura M.
Cadillac Customer Service

ROC OUT
05-09-13, 01:15 PM
Thanks, Judge! Good information to have especially when traveling and certain favorite fuels are not available.

CTSCHICK
05-09-13, 02:46 PM
Though I wouldnt go way out of my way to get top tier brand fuel and it isn't like you are paying more money for it since most gas stations are priced either the same or within pennies of each other depending on when they have restocked their fuel.
I wouldnt refill tank after tank after tank with the none top tier fuel brands just do to the fact they you do not know what you are getting.

I have seen my b.f. fix to many GM vehicles due to fuel quality problems or contaminants in fuel because the wiper boards on the GM sending units appear to be more problematic than other makes due to those reason's and why a lot of GM's have erratic or incorrect readings on fuel gauges that are directly caused by the amount of contaminants in fuels without the additives.

GM Tech NY
05-09-13, 05:49 PM
from a GM tech of 8 yrs, the son of a World Class GM Tech and a Cadillac owner. putting premium or anything above 87 octane is doing NOTHING for you performance wise. and If you feel it is, well your mind is playing tricks on you.

These motors are designed to run on 87. I'm not gonna get into a debate but same goes for adding a CAI and thinking you feel this power boost sorry junior but you don't its in your head. and then i see some articles on people removing what they are calling a resonator from the intake box, this has to be the DUMBEST thing I have ever seen done to a car if ANYTHING your confusing the ECM and LOSING performance. not gaining crap.

The_Judge
05-09-13, 05:58 PM
Ah, yes -- 21st Century versions of the proverbial chrome-plated dipstick! ;-)

As P.T. Barnum observed in the 19th Century, "There's a sucker born every minute!"

gohawks63
05-09-13, 06:35 PM
from a GM tech of 8 yrs, the son of a World Class GM Tech and a Cadillac owner. putting premium or anything above 87 octane is doing NOTHING for you performance wise. and If you feel it is, well your mind is playing tricks on you.

These motors are designed to run on 87. I'm not gonna get into a debate but same goes for adding a CAI and thinking you feel this power boost sorry junior but you don't its in your head. and then i see some articles on people removing what they are calling a resonator from the intake box, this has to be the DUMBEST thing I have ever seen done to a car if ANYTHING your confusing the ECM and LOSING performance. not gaining crap.

My understanding is that it is worthless to add a CAI without reprogramming or replacing the mass air flow sensor to take advantage of the increased airflow. The MAF is what is regulating the airflow into the throttle body based on the engine management programming. If you don't modify the programming (read: a tune), the engine is still going to take in the same amount of air through the throttle body, no matter how large the opening in the intake is.

GM Tech NY
05-09-13, 11:35 PM
My understanding is that it is worthless to add a CAI without reprogramming or replacing the mass air flow sensor to take advantage of the increased airflow. The MAF is what is regulating the airflow into the throttle body based on the engine management programming. If you don't modify the programming (read: a tune), the engine is still going to take in the same amount of air through the throttle body, no matter how large the opening in the intake is.

you are correct you can stick a huge fan into the intake its only going to take what is needed to mix correctly with the fuel, etc.

CTSCHICK
05-10-13, 01:57 PM
And to think GM sold a cold air kit through GMPP for my last car that required no pcm reflash to change any of the paremeters but provided a little more power that was proven on a dyno and retained the factory warranty.

The only GM cars I have seen that need to be tuned with a cold air kit is the ones that use the tune version of the Vararam kits.

gohawks63
05-10-13, 02:18 PM
And to think GM sold a cold air kit through GMPP for my last car that required no pcm reflash to change any of the paremeters but provided a little more power that was proven on a dyno and retained the factory warranty.

The only GM cars I have seen that need to be tuned with a cold air kit is the ones that use the tune version of the Vararam kits.

You might get a few horsepower that might be measurable on a dyno'ed, but I don't think there is anything that would make a seat of the pants difference.

CTSCHICK
05-10-13, 02:40 PM
You might get a few horsepower that might be measurable on a dyno'ed, but I don't think there is anything that would make a seat of the pants difference.

You might not feel it but it is measurable on a dyno or even better yet data logging the cars acceleration times
Dunno about you but a 10th of a sec is a 10th of sec faster regardless if I can feel it or not it is still faster

gohawks63
05-10-13, 02:59 PM
You might not feel it but it is measurable on a dyno or even better yet data logging the cars acceleration times
Dunno about you but a 10th of a sec is a 10th of sec faster regardless if I can feel it or not it is still faster

I guess that's true.

He is my personal experience.

We bought a Mustang convertible a few years ago as a summer car. Our desire was for a convertible first. We found a nice clean CPO model with low miles. The only issue was that it was a loaded V6 as opposed to a GT.

As I said, our desire was for a convertible first so we bought it. I then got the bug.

I added a K&N CAI that is supposed to add 5-6 HP. That may very well have been the case, but I couldn't feel it. Like before the mod, I couldn't even break the tires loose. Added an after market freer flowing axle back exhaust too. It also may have helped (it sure sounded better), but I couldn't feel it.

The car truly transformed when I bought and applied a tune to the car. THAT truly transformed the car. Much quicker and faster off the line. It will break the tires loose and lay a nice streak of rubber. The tune itself added about 15 horsepower or so, but it made a huge difference as the programming now allowed the car to leverage the increased airflow into and out of the engine.

CTSCHICK
05-10-13, 03:20 PM
Yeh but as far you know they might not have even changed the maf tables they might have just added some timing, pulled some fuel to lean out the rich factory tune then corrected the transmission shift points.

My G5GT picked up 27hp and 23 ft lbs with a tune, header and down pipe on the dyno the power increase wasn't immediately felt until the shift points in the transmission programming was corrected to match the power band of the engine during the road tune and some 1/4 mile runs
Even with the stock GM programming the transmission shift points were a couple 100 rpms to soon with the stock power band.

EVH5150
05-10-13, 03:58 PM
from a GM tech of 8 yrs, the son of a World Class GM Tech and a Cadillac owner. putting premium or anything above 87 octane is doing NOTHING for you performance wise. and If you feel it is, well your mind is playing tricks on you.

These motors are designed to run on 87. I'm not gonna get into a debate but same goes for adding a CAI and thinking you feel this power boost sorry junior but you don't its in your head. and then i see some articles on people removing what they are calling a resonator from the intake box, this has to be the DUMBEST thing I have ever seen done to a car if ANYTHING your confusing the ECM and LOSING performance. not gaining crap.

Nail on the head!

I have thought this for years. I truly believe that ;CAI, Cat Back Exhaust, and various other bolt on's are useless on factory tuned vehicles. All these performance parts were popularized when the first Fast & the Furious movie came out, and that's when all these companies pushed sales of CAI, and loud exhaust systems etc. In my mind all this crap is just the power of marketing & advertizing, and people still fall for it.

gohawks63
05-10-13, 04:01 PM
Yeh but as far you know they might not have even changed the maf tables they might have just added some timing, pulled some fuel to lean out the rich factory tune then corrected the transmission shift points.

My G5GT picked up 27hp and 23 ft lbs with a tune, header and down pipe on the dyno the power increase wasn't immediately felt until the shift points in the transmission programming was corrected to match the power band of the engine during the road tune and some 1/4 mile runs
Even with the stock GM programming the transmission shift points were a couple 100 rpms to soon with the stock power band.

The tune allows you to specify whether you're running a factory Intake or have an after market Cold air intake. I have to assume that is to remap the MAF tables.

...and yes I was able to change the sift points too.

OMG
05-10-13, 04:54 PM
Nail on the head!

I have thought this for years. I truly believe that ;CAI, Cat Back Exhaust, and various other bolt on's are useless on factory tuned vehicles. All these performance parts were popularized when the first Fast & the Furious movie came out, and that's when all these companies pushed sales of CAI, and loud exhaust systems etc. In my mind all this crap is just the power of marketing & advertizing, and people still fall for it.

All those things are were around long long before F&F. lol

CTSCHICK
05-10-13, 05:33 PM
Apparently GM thought one was necessary for the 2014 Z28

http://i41.tinypic.com/aakaxy.jpg

RippyPartsDept
05-10-13, 05:46 PM
the 1993-2011 run of NorthStar engines had a CAI also ... just wasn't really fancy lookin'

gohawks63
05-10-13, 06:24 PM
Apparently GM thought one was necessary for the 2014 Z28



No one is saying that it isn't necessary or does not add any value. In your example, the car was designed to take advantage of the CAI. The same goes for the Mustang Shelby Cobras that come with a CAI from the factory.

What we're saying is that swapping out the stock air box for a CAI without reprogramming the engine management system to take advantage of the increased air flow will yield minimal, if any benefits.

CTSCHICK
05-10-13, 06:29 PM
No one is saying that it isn't necessary or does not add any value. In your example, the car was designed to take advantage of the CAI. The same goes for the Mustang Shelby Cobras that come with a CAI from the factory.

What we're saying is that swapping out the stock air box for a CAI without reprogramming the engine management system to take advantage of the increased air flow will yield minimal, if any benefits.

Like I said GM made kits available through GMPP for cobalts, G5, Soltice, Sky that did not require a reflash or reprogram to compensate for the kits yet provided gains.

The only kits for Gm Cars that I have seen that specifically state tuning is required in order to use the kit has been Vararam but they also offer none tune required kits and those kits are the only ones I have seen requiring a tune after install.

gohawks63
05-10-13, 09:19 PM
Like I said GM made kits available through GMPP for cobalts, G5, Soltice, Sky that did not require a reflash or reprogram to compensate for the kits yet provided gains.

The only kits for Gm Cars that I have seen that specifically state tuning is required in order to use the kit has been Vararam but they also offer none tune required kits and those kits are the only ones I have seen requiring a tune after install.

A Cold Air Intake, as the name implies, is supposed to direct colder, denser air into the engine that is supposed to offer more power. Things such as placement of the inlet, whether it is sufficiently distanced from engine heat, the tubing material and the amount of bends in the tubing all are factors on the effectiveness of a CAI, especially one that doesn't require a tune.

The tubing material I have read is a bigger factor than you might think. Many people go for the CAIs that have the polished metal tubes because of the appearance. The reality is that metal tubes tend to retain heat and in actuality those systems with a plastic tubing do a better job of delivering "cold" air. As cold as you can get under the hood.

Since the MAF sensor really controls how much air is sucked into the engine, I would imagine that the "tuneless" CAIs deliver whatever power that they do because of the colder air they deliver.

EVH5150
05-12-13, 04:58 PM
All those things are were around long long before F&F. lol

Ha ha LOL!

I know that, but it seems as though it really took off after that movie especially with the ricer/tuner crowd LOL!

WRXtranceformed
05-12-13, 08:34 PM
and then i see some articles on people removing what they are calling a resonator from the intake box, this has to be the DUMBEST thing I have ever seen done to a car if ANYTHING your confusing the ECM and LOSING performance. not gaining crap.

If you are referring to a DIY post I put up in the performance section, you might want to read through the entire post to see that I mentioned that there was absolutely zero performance gain or loss. That mod wasn't meant for a performance gain. It is meant to add a little more noise when you hit the go pedal. You might have been a tech but you're definitely not an engineer. Intake silencers / snorkuses / resonators are just that. With the ram air/resonator removed, the air in an otherwise stock CTS is still being pulled in from the same square hole in the same intake box and going through the same filter and hitting the same sensors. Hence there is no performance gain or loss.

Just so I don't muck up this thread like everyone else rabbit-trailing on intakes and exhausts, on a stock CTS you are not going to notice a bit of difference running higher octane fuel. The only exception to that is if you are running a Trifecta tune as confirmed by BNR, since those tunes were optimized for 93 octane (they still run fine on 87). I personally wouldn't worry about running "top tier" gas in a non-forced injection car. If you are worried about keeping the fuel system clean, buy a $6.00 bottle of Seafoam and dump it in your gas tank every couple of months or so.

RippyPartsDept
05-12-13, 11:05 PM
Stay away from the seafoam and use techron instead. Theres even a gm branded version available at your dealer. No more often than once every 5000 miles ... Truthfully it should only be used if needed (or there's reason to believe it might be needed).

JackB
05-13-13, 09:08 PM
In other discussions on this forum there were statements made that Techron is a waste of money in a DI engine. Would be interested to hear any comments to the contrary.

gohawks63
05-13-13, 09:53 PM
In other discussions on this forum there were statements made that Techron is a waste of money in a DI engine. Would be interested to hear any comments to the contrary.

Techron will still help to keep the injectors clean, but it will have no effect on the intake valves.

MoFex
05-13-13, 11:25 PM
Techron will still help to keep the injectors clean, but it will have no effect on the intake valves.

Exactly!

OMG
05-14-13, 02:40 AM
Seafoam is the only thing that works on the intake valves but it is more preventive has to be from new and done every oil change. There was much speculation whether it would work because of the mixed results. But a member on the Cobalt SS Turbo forums (which have the same Carbon build up on the valves as we do) seafoamed his CBSS every oil change and took pics at 60k mi and it look damn good.

RippyPartsDept
05-14-13, 11:56 AM
How is seafoam going to 'work' on the intake valves when it is directly injected into the combustion chamber?

you know it's basically just lacquer/paint thinner, right?

C "T" ess
05-14-13, 12:14 PM
I think one thing that should be understood is the fact that modifications to intake and exhaust will be compensated for by the ECM. Unless you change the control module for a more aggressive set up, all you are doing is confusing the ECM as it tries to keep all of these factors with in the parameters of the factory settings. You may add additional seat of the pants feel but you may likely loose mpg's.

CTSCHICK
05-16-13, 05:48 PM
Since the MAF sensor really controls how much air is sucked into the engine, I would imagine that the "tuneless" CAIs deliver whatever power that they do because of the colder air they deliver.

Except the Maf doesn't control or regulate the amount of air or temperature of the air entering the engine since the Intake air temperature sensor is built into the Maf it only reads the amount of air entering and the temperature of that air and then sends it to the PCM so that the PCM can make the proper adjustments to compensate for those readings.

It is not different than how the engine is able to run properly during the change of weather temperatures during the seasons and changes in elevation with help of the Map sensor.


*Edit and about the tune required version's of the Vararam kits that I mentioned previously I asked my b.f. about why the tune versions require a tune he said it is because they change the diameter of the MAF housing to a larger size to accept more air for those version's and since the factory calibration is based off of the stock diameter housing the MAF tables have to be readjusted to compensate for the larger housing and that is the only reason.
The None tune version is the same intake kit with a stock sized Maf housing so no tune required

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In other discussions on this forum there were statements made that Techron is a waste of money in a DI engine. Would be interested to hear any comments to the contrary.

Besides keeping the injectors clean Techron Concentrate Plus has an additive that will clean and supposedly put a protective film over the fuel pump sending unit wiper board that is used for your fuel tank level readings.
For some reason that I forget the GM's are more susceptible to contamination and the reason why a lot of GM's fuel gauges read inaccurately

RippyPartsDept
05-16-13, 06:36 PM
Yeah techron often will fix screwy fuel gauges in our cars

gohawks63
05-17-13, 12:27 AM
Except the Maf doesn't control or regulate the amount of air or temperature of the air entering the engine since the Intake air temperature sensor is built into the Maf it only reads the amount of air entering and the temperature of that air and then sends it to the PCM so that the PCM can make the proper adjustments to compensate for those readings.

It is not different than how the engine is able to run properly during the change of weather temperatures during the seasons and changes in elevation with help of the Map sensor.

*Edit and about the tune required version's of the Vararam kits that I mentioned previously I asked my b.f. about why the tune versions require a tune he said it is because they change the diameter of the MAF housing to a larger size to accept more air for those version's and since the factory calibration is based off of the stock diameter housing the MAF tables have to be readjusted to compensate for the larger housing and that is the only reason.
The None tune version is the same intake kit with a stock sized Maf housing so no tune required

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Don't mean to be argumentative but you first said that the MAF doesn't control or regulate the amount of air, and then later you mention that in the Vararam kits, a tune is required to remap the MAF to allow it to benefit from the larger intake.

In the end the MAF measures the air coming in (Hence Mass Air Flow sensor) and communicates to the throttle body that actually does regulate the air that the engine ingests. At least that's how I understand it.

CTSCHICK
05-17-13, 02:14 AM
Don't mean to be argumentative but you first said that the MAF doesn't control or regulate the amount of air, and then later you mention that in the Vararam kits, a tune is required to remap the MAF to allow it to benefit from the larger intake.

In the end the MAF measures the air coming in (Hence Mass Air Flow sensor) and communicates to the throttle body that actually does regulate the air that the engine ingests. At least that's how I understand it.

Good try with trying to twist around what I said
Like I said already the only reason for the tune in the tune version is needed is because of the change in size to the larger Maf housing which like I already said isn't needed for the None tune version that is the exact same kit as the tune version minus the change in the Maf housing size, The rest of the cold air kit is the same..
Do you not understand that??
The tune version of those kits are made to support Cylinder head, intake manifold and Camshaft changes that require more air intake air flow to support the higher horse power than the none tune version.

So In the end does the MAF regulate air flow like you said or does it measure incoming air like I said you keep changing what you are saying :hmm:

C&C
05-17-13, 05:47 AM
The MAF sensor measures whatever air passes it, the ECM then controls how much fuel is injected; the MAF can't regulate air, it is just part of the stream and records what's entering the engine (the butter-fly, in the throttle body regulates the incoming air).

gohawks63
05-17-13, 08:14 AM
Good try with trying to twist around what I said
Like I said already the only reason for the tune in the tune version is needed is because of the change in size to the larger Maf housing which like I already said isn't needed for the None tune version that is the exact same kit as the tune version minus the change in the Maf housing size, The rest of the cold air kit is the same..
Do you not understand that??
The tune version of those kits are made to support Cylinder head, intake manifold and Camshaft changes that require more air intake air flow to support the higher horse power than the none tune version.

So In the end does the MAF regulate air flow like you said or does it measure incoming air like I said you keep changing what you are saying :hmm:

I wasn't trying to be a dick. I just saw what I thought was a contradiction in what you were saying.

Understand perfectly why tunes are needed. I have installed a CAI and tuned our Mustang. When I did, there were a few choices. A K&N which didn't require a tune because the size and diameter were similar to the stock air box or others that required the tune otherwise they would trip the CEL. The ones that required a tune changed the engine mapping to expect increased airflow and if the MAF didn't get that airflow, it would light the CEL.

I installed the K&N for one main reason, I wanted to be able to return the ECM back to stock programming when I would take the car in for service or warranty work. If I would have used any of the others that required a tune I could not have done that without causing the CEL to light, and the only way to avoid that would be to swap the air box every time I took it in. A bit of a hassle.

The trade off in that is that my tune most likely does not take full advantage of the CAI.

While the tune you mentioned is made to support engine modifications (cylinder head, manifold and camshaft), not all CAIs that require tunes need physical internal engine modifications.

When I tune (SCT tune) my Mustang I can go into the settings on the tuner and specify what intake is installed on the car (stock, JLT, or others). If pick the wrong one the CEL will light. Since I haven't changed any of the internals of my car, it has to be because the engine mapping is expecting a certain airflow through the MAF which it isn't getting because of the mismatched intake specified.

So in the end I am not sure what you said (again not being a dick). The MAF controls nothing as far as I know. It does measure the airflow coming in and communicates to the ECM so that the proper air and fuel mixture is set per the tune. If the ECM (tuned or not) is expecting a certain amount of air and it's not getting it, it will trip the check engine light.

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The MAF sensor measures whatever air passes it, the ECM then controls how much fuel is injected; the MAF can't regulate air, it is just part of the stream and records what's entering the engine (the butter-fly, in the throttle body regulates the incoming air).

That's what I was trying to say, although you said it in much fewer words than me. :)

MoFex
05-17-13, 08:38 AM
Can someone please correct the title of this tread? CTS owners should know how to spell “gasolene” ;)

“Gasoline” is the proper one ;

C&C
05-17-13, 12:37 PM
Can someone please correct the title of this tread? CTS owners should know how to spell “gasolene” ;)

“Gasoline” is the proper one ;

except no capital G :)

MoFex
05-17-13, 01:35 PM
except no capital G :)

It depends, if this is the first word of a sentence............ ;)

ajazolino
05-17-13, 01:48 PM
Can someone please correct the title of this tread? CTS owners should know how to spell “gasolene” ;)

“Gasoline” is the proper one ;

**thread**

Lol

CTSCHICK
05-18-13, 04:01 PM
I wasn't trying to be a dick. I just saw what I thought was a contradiction in what you were saying.

Understand perfectly why tunes are needed. I have installed a CAI and tuned our Mustang. When I did, there were a few choices. A K&N which didn't require a tune because the size and diameter were similar to the stock air box or others that required the tune otherwise they would trip the CEL. The ones that required a tune changed the engine mapping to expect increased airflow and if the MAF didn't get that airflow, it would light the CEL.

I installed the K&N for one main reason, I wanted to be able to return the ECM back to stock programming when I would take the car in for service or warranty work. If I would have used any of the others that required a tune I could not have done that without causing the CEL to light, and the only way to avoid that would be to swap the air box every time I took it in. A bit of a hassle.

The trade off in that is that my tune most likely does not take full advantage of the CAI.

While the tune you mentioned is made to support engine modifications (cylinder head, manifold and camshaft), not all CAIs that require tunes need physical internal engine modifications.

When I tune (SCT tune) my Mustang I can go into the settings on the tuner and specify what intake is installed on the car (stock, JLT, or others). If pick the wrong one the CEL will light. Since I haven't changed any of the internals of my car, it has to be because the engine mapping is expecting a certain airflow through the MAF which it isn't getting because of the mismatched intake specified.

So in the end I am not sure what you said (again not being a dick). The MAF controls nothing as far as I know. It does measure the airflow coming in and communicates to the ECM so that the proper air and fuel mixture is set per the tune. If the ECM (tuned or not) is expecting a certain amount of air and it's not getting it, it will trip the check engine light.

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That's what I was trying to say, although you said it in much fewer words than me. :)


I am not taking what you are saying as being a dick and hope you don't take what I say to be the same either,
I was just saying that you were the one that first said it regulated air, Go back and read what you said previously that is what you said.

That is why I mentioned it previously that it only read the amount of air passing through it along with the temperature of that air passing through it.

I have to deal with alot of vendors for orders for my b.f. and those kits are the only ones on the market that I have ever seen that require a tune with GM vehicles.
They sell one none tune version to properly support the air flow for horse power levels of cars that just go headers,exhuast and cold air kit.
Then the other kit that requires the tune doesn't fully require internal engine modifications but it provides the additional air flow to support those modifications.
You can use either kit for either purpose except the tune is need in the tune version because of the larger maf housing and the maf tables have to be changed to properly read that increased airflow.
Thats is all there is to it sorry I do not know why you do not understand that.