: Custom Intake Finished!



playaman
02-03-03, 10:39 AM
After many hours of pondering what to do w/ my intake as far as upgrading it, I came up with what I think is an awesome idea for and intake, and it's free :)

Ok, so, remove all the piping of your intake from the airbos and on. By this I mean, silencer and the other portion that snakes around the car (on my 94 seville STS, anyways). Then, take out your airbox and grab a saw. Cut the bottom of the airbox out so it's just a huge open area to the air filter. The surface area is just as much if not MORE than a cone filter. The air filter still fits inside the desired place. So... in summary, take the bottom half of the airbox and make it completely open to air by cutting off part of the plastic. I'll see if I can get a pic sometimes today and post it. But, I have class right now. Lemme know what you guys think. Lata.

Katshot
02-03-03, 11:49 AM
Unless I'm missing what you're saying, that will lead to a lot of high temp engine compartment air being drawn into the filter won't it?

kcnewell
02-03-03, 02:53 PM
Funny.....I was thinkin' the same thing!

Katshot
02-03-03, 03:20 PM
That's not funny, it's scary ;)

Devil_concours
02-03-03, 08:43 PM
what about running a longer pipe to move the intake towards the front fender? That will help bringing in lot more cold air.

kcnewell
02-03-03, 11:23 PM
I'd be looking for a way to get the cooler outside air in the quantitys you're looking for into the airbox. Possibly fabricate an intake tube to route air from outside the engine compartment to where you need it to go! The thing that you need to remember is that these cars are already engineered to run very well and the systems you're playing with are pretty delicately balanced if you mess around with one you can throw something out of whack on down the line. It is NOT uncommon to see a guy LOSE power by changing things he does not FULLY understand. Be careful what you change.

Dead Sled
02-04-03, 12:13 AM
well said KC. the idea of modifying your filter and intake is to get it away for the engine heat. So idealy you would either get it through a scoop through the fender or down under the front air dam area. You improoved the flow to the filter but Im afraid you got the air from the wrong place

Devil_concours
02-04-03, 12:15 AM
i also heard that ram air nearly useless unless you travel at high rate of speed. I've had some good result on my gtp when i moved the intake down near the front fender.

Dead Sled
02-04-03, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Devil_concours
i also heard that ram air nearly useless unless you travel at high rate of speed. I've had some good result on my gtp when i moved the intake down near the front fender.

true, the real advantage of Ram Air is to get fresh cool air in there, Not force air in like a blower even though its marketed like that

Devil_concours
02-04-03, 12:31 AM
i guess only way to increase large amount of power is by forced induction system.

Dead Sled
02-04-03, 12:49 AM
the internal combustion engine is a large air pump the more air you can move in and out the more power you make. so make the intake flow and exhaust flow and you have power

Blowers have the disadvantage of using power form the engine to turn

Turbos use exhaust to power it self as long as you dont creat too much back presure

N20 itself doesnt burn but it cools the incomming air making it more dense and adding another molecule of oxygen

these methods are the most popular way of gettin gbang for the buck

Katshot
02-04-03, 08:12 AM
The easiest thing for you to do is to construct a box around the filter that seals to the underside of the hood when closed. This will make the filter draw through the OEM path and NOT from the engine compartment. This is basically what the K&N kit does around the cone filter.
As for Ram-Air effect and/or forced-induction systems, Passive types such as standard ram-air can be effective as long as the duct is placed in the proper area. You need to have it in a "high-pressure" area such as the cowel area, or the front facia.
Turbos are nice because it's basically free energy but they bring high heat loads to your motor oil, and engine compartment. And they are of little use at low throttle angles.
Superchargers on the other hand pose a substantial parasitic load on the engine but are power builders at ALL throttle angles and don't substantially increase heat loads beyond the actual combustion chambers.

kcnewell
02-04-03, 09:51 AM
The point being, DO IT RIGHT or DON'T DO IT at all. Custom isn't always better, Sometimes it's better, Sometimes it's just different and Sometimes it's worse. It's not like throwing a set of headers on your old Chevelle anymore, Now you have to put a little more thought into engine mods....No matter how minor!

Devil_concours
02-04-03, 10:29 AM
what about heatshield below the intake? would that help any?

kcnewell
02-04-03, 10:54 AM
Maybe a little...But it doesn't really address the ambient air temperature in the engine compartment. If you want cooler intake air you have to go outside the engine compartment to get it! when I refered to fabricating a tube or something like that earlier I was more interested in getting at the cooler air than at any kind of ram air benefit.

playaman
02-04-03, 11:22 AM
Well, I've ran w/o an intake at all before and it helped a LOT. So, I'm not sure it's hurting too much. Also, haven't you seen the stock intake set up? The air isn't exactly cold using that setup :)
It works, it feels a lot better when driving, and I'm happy w/ it. I understand the principle of cold air induction, however, how is the K&N cone filter idea draw any colder air than my setup?

ljklaiber
02-04-03, 01:46 PM
I know this will strike out with young hotrodders, but hacksaw tech and airflow were done to no avail, many years ago. The stock 95 sls air box draws from the LF behind the lower bumper. The chamber is shaped to 'quiet' or 'still' .and present cool air prior to engine demand. Also airflow does not like abrupt changes in direction. Radiused shapes are best for sure. I may be an old man, but I have been porting for 30 years and currently use a SF 600 bench to mod and improve. The engine sees fuel as well as air and how well they blend as they enter combustion chamber is 'muy importante'. Just cause it sounds better..i.e (big moaning noise) does not mean more power. Also, buying long cam profiles from people who run 1500 lb sand buggies, won't work well in 2 ton sedans. Best mod is still putting your sled on a diet. Lose 500 pounds and see.


Old Racer

Katshot
02-04-03, 03:05 PM
The K&N setup seals the cone filter in a box that then is forced to pull air in through the OEM hole in the body. Unless you hadn't noticed the OEM box doesn't just sit in the engine compartment and suck in hot air, it pulls it from a hole in the body that leads OUT of the engine compartment.
Yes, you will see a HP improvement by running NO filter at all BUT, I don't think you want to run like that all the time. Plus, as soon as you removed the air inlet completely, you threw the PCM a curve that it will "learn" out to a degree over some time.
The secret is to modify the inlet/exhaust combination to maximize the engine's performance WITHIN the tuning parameters setup in the PCM. Beyond that, you're just wasting your time and money unless you can get the programming changed.

elwesso
02-04-03, 03:23 PM
http://discussions.gmforums.com/sho...hlight=cold+air

Look at that, i think that is the best way to do it. I dont think that cutting off the entire bottom of the airbox is a good idea.

Katshot
02-04-03, 04:01 PM
Yo Homer!
That link won't work for Non-registered people (like me).

elwesso
02-04-03, 04:11 PM
ok, let me get it! Try this one:

http://discussions.gmforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=28697

In my opinion, that is most effective, it doesnt screw up the airbox, and it only takes a few minutes!

playaman
02-04-03, 08:34 PM
Ok, ok. You all have spoken and shown me the way. I completely ditched the airbox and went w/ a custom cold air intake setup. First I cut some of the tubing that connects the throttle body to the airbox to make it more circular. Next, I stuck a small 3" or so PVC pipe into the tubing and clamped it. I then bought a 90 degree plastic elbow at Home Depot. Connected that to the PVC pipe. Used a piece of metal tube that I had from the intake on my previous car and connected that to the other side of the elbow. I ran that pipe down the hole where the original intake "snakes around" and stuck a filter on it that draws fresh cold air from outside the car. Now, what do you all have to say about that? :) Improvement? I think so. :) I'll see if i can get pics momentarily. Peace.

Edit: Sorry, can't get digital camera workin. No pics for now. :) maybe tomorrow :)

elwesso
02-04-03, 08:54 PM
Well, im not sure, im having a hard time picturing it. What kind of filter are you using. If i understand correctly, it doesnt sound like a bad setup, but kind of a waste. The airbox is just fine, there is no need to take it out and put in all that other stuff. If you got a KN panel filter and did that mod. that i posted up there, you would have the same if not more power than your setup. It makes sense when you set it up, but in reality putting in a KN filter alone will only give you about 5 extra horses. The "cold air intake" only adds a nominal amout of power.

Please get some pics, i am having a hard time envisioning how it is setup.

playaman
02-04-03, 09:19 PM
I'm using a K&N cone filter but I ran teh piping down and out the car through the hole where the "snake" part normally is, but I removed it.

elwesso
02-04-03, 09:23 PM
Ok so let me get this straight: You completely scrapped the airbox, hooked a hose right from the air intake, and have another hose with the KN in it going down to the "snake" hole? Am i correct? This doesnt sound like too bad a setup, but kind of a waste of time, IMO. Please post pics, i wanna see this !!!

playaman
02-04-03, 09:29 PM
That's exactly what I did. Sorry... pics prolly tomorrow night, when I borrow girlfriend's camera. :(

elwesso
02-04-03, 09:37 PM
OK. Funny, i was thinking about doing the EXACT same thing, almost to the letter. Is your KN an open end filter, becuase if not you could be having more restriction then if you would have the stock filter. Something you may consider, i looked on KNs website and found that there are ROUND panel filters. Something that may interest you.....

If i made you feel bad about the setup, i am sorry. IMO though, i think you could have gotten the same results using different methods. But i will say that it does sound like a good setup.

playaman
02-04-03, 09:52 PM
Yes, it's an open-end filter. a ROUND filter DOES sound like something I should look into. Thanks. Thanks for the interest as well. I realize my 1st setup (cutting off bottom of airbox) was inefficient but this one should prove much more efficient.

Dead Sled
02-04-03, 10:02 PM
good luck with the new mod

elwesso
02-04-03, 10:06 PM
I have been doing a lot of research on this topic, but found that in this case the easiest is the best. Since you have already done away with the airbox, i guess you have the next best thing. I would recommend running another hose to the outside somewhere, either behind the grille or in the air dam. Either or.

jadcock
02-05-03, 05:03 PM
Do realize that if you run an open element air filter, and have the PCM located inside your engine compartment, that part of the functionality of the airbox was to draw air around and over the cooling fins of the PCM. You'll notice that the airbox (on many models) draws air right from the PCM's surface, in effect creating airflow across those cooling fins. Keeping the PCM cool is important, especially when running in very hot weather.

This isn't to say that your PCM will overheat if you run a cone filter(it probably will not), but by re-routing the intake air, you'll be losing that protection that was designed into the system.

elwesso
02-05-03, 05:58 PM
something i did not realize. But i did know that taking out things like the airbox seems harmless, but if it wasnt needed then they wouldnt have put it there in the first place! Thats why i was against taking out, or even messing with the airbox to that extent.

Allante North *
02-05-03, 06:14 PM
I'm a beliver that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

elwesso
02-05-03, 06:19 PM
did you copy and paste it into your address bar?

Here is another link to it, it worked fine for me: CLICK HERE (http://discussions.gmforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=28697)

Allante North *
02-05-03, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the update Wes. I did see that thread before and it sounds much better than butchering the airbox.

elwesso
02-05-03, 06:37 PM
I was thinking about some other form of that....

I was thinking about putting something over the air dam (something as wide and high) that would funnel down to about a 3.5 in flexible hose, which would lead to the airbox. What do you think about that, would it mess up the aerodynamics?

ljklaiber
02-05-03, 06:45 PM
PVC!
Caddy engineers will love this one. ...ROFLMAO!

playaman
02-05-03, 06:59 PM
Umm.... all they use is hard plastic.... not sure what you meant by that but I HOPE it's not an insult. BTW, I have noticed MUCH MUCH MUCH better throttle response w/ this system over the stock one. In the future, I'll be sure not to post modifications to my car w/ the hope of educating the board seeing as how you all have the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" methodology.

Who knows? This may spark someone else to come up w/ an even better idea. Sorry for wasting all of your time w/ my personal experiences.

*flame suit on*

"Why make your chevy small block 350 a blown 427 stroker? Don't you think Chevy would have done that if it increased performance?"

I guess that's the reason you guys own cadillacs. You're a bunch of old people who have lost the true spirit of the automobile.

*flame suit off*

Thanks to all those who have true interest in modifying their cadillacs and are interested in other people's setups.

Edit: Jadcock, I think drawing the air in from outside the car will make it cooler than anywhere under the hood.

ljklaiber
02-05-03, 07:13 PM
I B 62, and old for sure. Check your shorts JR! We invented 'HOT ROD' Been racin for pay for 35 years. From my 56 chevy to my current caddillac...I ai't slack! You just invent the wheel Son! Carry on!

Allante North *
02-05-03, 08:09 PM
playaman,

Please don't take too much offense to constructive criticism. Yes, some of us Cadillac owners are of advanced age. I'm 43 and feel more like 24. I grew up with hot rods and while not as much of a motor head as some, I would research a bit on a project prior to actually doing some work that I might regret later. A wise man learns from his mistakes and hopefully will not make the same mistake again. We are all here for the same reason......to learn and share. You might want to keep that flame suit handy if you feel the need, but I think you could retire it and and just take things with a grain of salt.

The Old Fart

jadcock
02-05-03, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by playaman
Edit: Jadcock, I think drawing the air in from outside the car will make it cooler than anywhere under the hood.

Absolutely. Any air you get from outside the car will be cooler than under the hood. Re-read my post. It doesn't say that drawing the air over the cooling fins of your PCM will keep the air cooler, it says it will keep the PCM cooler -- to prevent a situation where it might overheat (like in 105F weather and stop and go traffic).

If you don't draw the air across the PCM, that computer is subject to the intense heat underneath the hood -- with no air moving across it to cool it off. Again, you probably won't have any problems -- I just wanted to point out the possibility.

playaman
02-05-03, 08:35 PM
But the stock airbox draws in air from behind the FR headlight, nowhere near the PCM. As far as I understand it, and can see, the stock intake doesn't draw air into the engine at a position which would cool down the PCM. Also, I'm not blocking the grille or air dam w/ my intake so I'm not sure as to what you're saying. Please clarify as overheating IS a concern for me. Thanks.

elwesso
02-05-03, 08:47 PM
I was talking about an idea i had about the air dam.

playaman
02-05-03, 08:52 PM
Is that what jadcock is referring to?

elwesso
02-05-03, 08:54 PM
no, it was just an idea of mine. I just wanted to see what you all thought about it. I didnt really think it was necessary to start a new thread, because it was already in the custom intake.

jadcock
02-05-03, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by playaman
But the stock airbox draws in air from behind the FR headlight, nowhere near the PCM. As far as I understand it, and can see, the stock intake doesn't draw air into the engine at a position which would cool down the PCM. Also, I'm not blocking the grille or air dam w/ my intake so I'm not sure as to what you're saying. Please clarify as overheating IS a concern for me. Thanks.

You probably have an earlier model Seville. Sometime in the mid 1990s (not sure of the exact year), they moved to the PCM to the underhood area. Fewer wires this way, plus the PCM stays cooler...as long as its in the flow of intake air.

http://jadcock.oldsgmail.com/cadsls/images/intake3.jpg

That's a picture of the setup with the PCM under the hood. That large silver metal hunk visible through the hole is the PCM's cooling fins. You wouldn't believe that the Northstar can suck 300 horsies through that hole, but it really does work! They spend lots of time and money to perfect the system.

Note, that picture was taken when I had the cone filter. I've since took it off and put the airbox back on and have been happier overall with it.

playaman
02-05-03, 09:10 PM
Ah ha. My 94 does not have the PCM located there. Thanks for clarifying.

BeelzeBob
02-06-03, 06:50 PM
It didn't work for me either - and I'm registered...

elwesso
02-06-03, 08:30 PM
sal, are you talking about the link i posted earlier. I dont know whats wrong, i havent had any problems. One thing, if it isnt working, you may have to log in. Try that. Sometimes in order for it to stay logged in, you will have to enable cookies.

playaman
02-09-03, 01:08 PM
Pics of the cold air intake. Sorry they took so long.

Edit: Also shows a good pics of the nitrous setup.

playaman
02-09-03, 01:09 PM
More pics...

playaman
02-09-03, 01:10 PM
More again...

playaman
02-09-03, 01:11 PM
Say hi to the filter outside the car :)

elwesso
02-09-03, 01:49 PM
Not bad. Although i dont agree with the filter outside the car, your gonna have to constantly clean it, and if it got punctured, you could get some nasty crap in the engine.

Dead Sled
02-09-03, 05:04 PM
Id say it would work fine it just might get a little grimeier from road spray but will work good

elwesso
02-09-03, 05:30 PM
Just make sure you check it often to make sure it doesnt get clogged.

jadcock
02-09-03, 08:46 PM
And WATER! Watch those PUDDLES! That thing is right inline for spray from other vehicles, driving rain, and worst of all, puddle splash from your own tires! I hope your engine doesn't hydrolock! The quality of your system looks good, but I'd seriously consider relocating that filter.

elwesso
02-09-03, 08:49 PM
Or you could put some sort of screen over it.

playaman
02-09-03, 09:07 PM
The solution to that problem is simple: don't drive in the rain. :) Which I don't. :)

kcnewell
02-09-03, 09:10 PM
What if you run out of Twinkies just as a storm comes in? OH my God! What will you do? LOL!

Katshot
02-09-03, 09:17 PM
Real bad place for a filter dude.
BTW, am I nuts or do you have a nitrous kit on this car?

elwesso
02-09-03, 09:19 PM
I cant think of a worse situation, KC!!

kcnewell
02-09-03, 09:24 PM
I.......Am Speechless!

elwesso
02-09-03, 09:26 PM
Is your makeup running again?

kcnewell
02-09-03, 09:27 PM
Tears from the laughter!

elwesso
02-09-03, 09:30 PM
Thats right. What could be worse than running out of twinkies on a rainy day?

playaman
02-09-03, 11:16 PM
Well... I'll just have to run w/ an umbrella to the store. hehe. I guess I'll need the running after eating a box of twinkies :)

Edit: You are correct. I'm currently running a 100 shot wet kit nitrous set up.

Katshot
02-10-03, 08:53 AM
Have you ever gotten any E/T's with and without the kit? I'd be interested to see what kind of improvement you got.
Also, I hope you're preparing for the head gasket R&R that is surely coming ;)

playaman
02-10-03, 10:04 AM
No E/T's yet. :( I'm hoping for mid-high 13's on the spray. The ultiamte goal for the car is high 12's so I need some more mods to get me there still :) Any ideas anyone? Maybe custom heads/cam work :)

kcnewell
02-10-03, 10:58 AM
Earlier in this thread I made a remark that people should not try to change what they do not fully understand. This is a perfect example of what I was referring to! Having seen the photos of this intake I see NOTHING there that will improve this vehicle at all! To the contrary this car now has an intake outside under the car directly in the path of anything that bounces off the wheels or the wheels of the car in front..Great idea! Congratulations! You are now the proud owner of a fine american luxury car that you take a chance of destroying simply by the act of driving it under normal circumstances. These forums are partially here as a tool to use to learn about what will and will not work to improve your car and make it more user friendly. We've almost all said in one way or another that this IS a BAD idea! All I can say at this point is....Good Luck! Let us know when it grenades! I for one will be on record as having already said "I told you so"

jadcock
02-10-03, 11:13 AM
Hey, can I get in on that "told ya so" action too? :banghead2

playaman
02-10-03, 02:37 PM
That's fine. :)
As such, you should not try to modify your car, because it is clear you do not understand the underlying principles of cold air induction. :)
However, if I have to do a little more maintenance of my car in order to assure it's running properly, it bothers me not. :)
It's a bad idea b/c I have to be more careful and maintain my car more often? Doesn't sound like a bad price to pay for the advantages it gives me.
If you don't like what I do, don't respond.

jadcock
02-10-03, 03:09 PM
No, but I do understand the principles of rock induction, road grime induction, and induction of other road surface anomalies and know that I don't want those types of intakes on my car.

Dude, we're not saying that the idea sucks -- just that there might be a better place for the filter as opposed to suckin' ants off the road surface. If it works for ya, that's all that counts.

:D

Katshot
02-10-03, 03:12 PM
I understand what you're saying. BUT, I'd be VERY careful with an air filter positioned so low and in such a position. The dirt etc. is no biggie as you said. So you keep a closer eye on the filter, so what? The real problem is what happens to your engine if it were to ingest a significant amount of water (which can happen pretty easy with your filter location). Suddenly hydro-locking your engine would be disasterous.

elwesso
02-10-03, 03:21 PM
I do have a suggestion that would make this work better. Raise the filter higher, and then put a hose over the filter going down to the road level. Then at the end put some sort of screen over that. That wouldnt necessarily eliminate the possibility for hydrolocking, but it would certainly help.

playaman
02-10-03, 03:38 PM
Great idea elwesso. Only problem I see is how to do it :( I don't drive in the rain, there is a filter to protect from "rock induction" and it wasn't really my choice to have the filter that low. That's just the way the piping that I had already happened to be. Sorry. I think it's a fabulous setup for what it cost me (5 bucks). Please don't talk to me about spending more money on the intake, unless you want to donate me the money :)

elwesso
02-10-03, 03:41 PM
Ok...... But would you rather spend 5 or 10 dollars now or 8000 for a new northstar later????

playaman
02-10-03, 03:45 PM
If you plan on giving me that 5-10 bucks.... :)

jadcock
02-10-03, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by playaman
If you plan on giving me that 5-10 bucks.... :)

Ha! :D

Does the metal work of the car itself prohibit you from moving the filter up and out of the way? Maybe simply shortening the pipe somehow will allow you to move the physical filter up and farther out of harm's way...unless of course the car itself and the size of the filter is prohibiting you from moving it up farther. It's true that a rock may not get through the filter that way, but it would suck to hit a piece of debris (even as small as a pebble) at 60 mph and dent the filter badly.

playaman
02-10-03, 05:51 PM
Omg, crap. I think I'll cut the pipe. Lol. Why didn't I think of that? :( Seriously, thanks, that's the kinda help I was looking for. :)

Dead Sled
02-10-03, 06:51 PM
I think it should work ok

I've seen much worse bootie fab

kcnewell
02-10-03, 11:50 PM
AMAZING!

elwesso
02-11-03, 03:16 PM
VOILA!

playaman
02-11-03, 03:49 PM
I feel stupid. :banghead2
Let's all stop bickering and have a group hug :grouphug:

kcnewell
02-11-03, 05:37 PM
We're not bickering Dude, We're just trying to save you a LOT of headaches later! Don't feel stupid look at all the brains you have to pick here!

elwesso
02-11-03, 05:45 PM
^^^^ what he said^^^^^^^

ljklaiber
02-12-03, 01:25 AM
Elwesso.
I just noticed where you live. Used to love your racetrack in Anderson. It was a noisy 'Bullring' and the Hoosier 400 would make us all deaf. This was earlydays of the ASA; late 70's.

Love the tracks in Indiana. Winchester was ,and probably still is.......... .Awesome!

....and I agree with what KC said.

elwesso
02-12-03, 03:24 PM
Anderson speedway, ah yes. Been there many times. I usually go to the little 500, which is a race with midget cars. Also, i have been to the figure 8, that is fun to watch.

ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC.......

playaman
02-12-03, 11:32 PM
Hi-jackers!! :)