: Death of my V? Opinions?



TERP V
04-30-13, 01:23 PM
Sad story, cover your eyes, but need some opinions.

Bought my '04 V about 2 years ago for 17k (no engine mods) and enjoyed it greatly till Saturday evening. Got on the highway and just settled into 6th at about 75 when there was a metallic ratcheting type sound from the motor, looked down in time to see I had like 45 psi oil pressure then it died. On the shoulder I looked for any obvious problems, couldn't find any. Motor had oil, wasn't overheating. Tried to start and still had the metallic ratcheting. Tow truck time.

My mechanic called, said they tried to start it and motor is seized up, telling me I need a new motor. I asked if the timing chain let go or valve spring broke or something? Apparently they didn't investigate further, just decided "new motor." I'm thinking of getting it back from these guys and trying to investigate myself.

In the mean time, quick searches seem to show LS6's going for around 6k new. ugg. Don't particularly want to put a new motor in, but the only used I found was also 6k, but did include trans and was a complete package.

Believe me I'm all for breaking it is upgrade time, but the wallet can't handle too much. What are my options other than a new LS6 if it comes to that? LS2? LS3 seems to cost about the same, makes more power... I've seen all the LS#'s thrown about, but again cost IS a factor, and a complicated conversion/install is over my head I imagine... Also throwing major upgraded horsepower at my whiny rear diff worries me as well.

Saw an interesting remanufacturer called ProMar Precision Engines in NJ that offers an LS6 long block package for 3K (with 3 year unlimited mileage warranty), but I assume they wouldn't want my core, so not sure what the upcharge would be...

Sadly welcoming opinions...

darkman
04-30-13, 01:33 PM
I think you may have broken a timing chain and now the mechanic has spun the motor enough to really jam it up. Even if my guess is wrong, there are a number things the could "seize" the motor that are repairable. I would investigate the condition of the motor a little further before I pronounced it dead.

FuzzyLogic
04-30-13, 01:42 PM
If the motor wasn't a write-off before it died on the road, it sounds like your attempt to start it and (I suspect) the abuse that the mechanic probably layered onto it guarantees that the block is toast.

With luck, you might be able to salvage your heads and most (if not all) of your accessories. If you found a stock LS6 shortblock, you might be able to rebuild the engine in a couple of days for about $2000.

If your need is less immediate, I will be upgrading to a 416 CID LS3 and will be putting my upgraded LS2 on the market in the $4000 range.

AAIIIC
04-30-13, 01:50 PM
The LS6 was discontinued back in 2009ish, and I had to search for a couple of months to find a new one back in 2011, so I'm curious where you're finding a new one for $6k.

I concur with darkman that you owe yourself some more investigation before deciding to throw in the towel.

Part of me wishes that I had gone the LS3 route when I replaced my dead LS6, as I could have easily afforded to do so. There are so many different options out there from all sorts of vendors that it's kind of overwhelming, so I just kept it simple and stuck with a new LS6 long block from GM.

H-town_V
04-30-13, 02:07 PM
[/COLOR]Couldn't you just buy a junkyard ls1 fairly cheep and swap over all the necessary ls6 parts that are still good.

HAMSTAR
04-30-13, 02:53 PM
Talk to a good LS mechanic. Give Jeff Lowry at PSI at call. He's scrappy and will bring your motor back from the dead if it can be done without costing too much.

Bacon V
04-30-13, 05:06 PM
Where are you located? There's a LS2/T56 combo with 78k miles from a gto on craigslist here locally. You could deal on the motor and ship it. I think he's asking 6k, but it's been on a while. You could sell one of the transmissions on top for 1200 i would think

TERP V
04-30-13, 09:41 PM
I would investigate the condition of the motor a little further before I pronounced it dead.
Yes, agreed.


If your need is less immediate, I will be upgrading to a 416 CID LS3 and will be putting my upgraded LS2 on the market in the $4000 range.
No, not immediate. This is interesting, whats your timetable?


There are so many different options out there from all sorts of vendors that it's kind of overwhelming
Thats for sure!


Give Jeff Lowry at PSI at call.
Thanks, that is only about an hour from me. Anyone ever deal with Tony's Corvette in Gaithersburg, MD? I've heard they are good and are also close.


Where are you located? There's a LS2/T56 combo with 78k miles from a gto on craigslist here locally. You could deal on the motor and ship it. I think he's asking 6k, but it's been on a while. You could sell one of the transmissions on top for 1200 i would think
Near Frederick, MD. That sounds like one I saw on Ebay. Funny, I clicked on watch the item yesterday, and when I look back today its like $600 higher. Hmmm...


Couldn't you just buy a junkyard ls1 fairly cheep and swap over all the necessary ls6 parts that are still good.
Well, that is pretty much the meat of my question. Could I? You hear the "hey throw this or that in" but with my lack of expertise I'm trying to figure out what is really feasible. When it gets down to the nuts/bolts, does a LS1 just drop in nice and easy? LS2 I assume would, since its in the 05-07? LS3? With something other than LS6 are my costs going way up due to new computers/etc or are they plug & play? Is this all just simple for an experienced mechanic?

Thanks for all the quick responses guys.

HAMSTAR
04-30-13, 11:19 PM
Never dealt with them, but I have heard complaints about their tunes. It's hearsay, though. I have to tell you I've never run into a mechanic as resourceful as Jeff, and as honest with clients money. The guy charged me a quarter hour once for a job that books for an hour, just because he's fast and honest. Honestly, don't go anywhere else. I'll PM you his email.

AAIIIC
05-01-13, 12:05 AM
Well, that is pretty much the meat of my question. Could I? You hear the "hey throw this or that in" but with my lack of expertise I'm trying to figure out what is really feasible. When it gets down to the nuts/bolts, does a LS1 just drop in nice and easy?
You could put your heads, cam and intake manifold in/on an LS1 short block and basically make an LS6. There are some improvements to the LS6 block relative to the LS1, but for a daily driver it wouldn't really matter. The LS6 H/C/I are significantly better than the LS1 bits, so you would need to swap that stuff over or you'd take a pretty big hit in performance (and would need to retune the ECU).


LS2 I assume would, since its in the 05-07?
The LS2 is actually just 06/07, but whatever. It's not a straight swap, as the LS6 is a Gen III engine and the LS2 is Gen IV, which means there are some differences in the cam and crank triggering and a couple other electrical things.


LS3? With something other than LS6 are my costs going way up due to new computers/etc or are they plug & play?
Here's a pretty good summary (http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-external-engine/1380556-ls3-swap-into-ls6-cts-v.html) of what it takes to put an LS3 into an LS6 car. I think that all of that would apply to an LS2 as well; someone will correct if I'm wrong, I'm sure. :)

robojesus
05-01-13, 12:21 AM
Terp, the LS1 shortblock would work fine. Depending on what exactly is broken on your motor, It could very easily be a fairly cheap repair. If there was oil, and you were at lower RPM, I sincerely doubt it's a rod or main bearing. Was your A/C on during when it seized? I've seen A/C compressors seize up and the motor was unable to turn over because of the seizure (to the point that a garage pulled a northstar out of a 99 deville). I'd start by pulling your a/c drive belt off and examining that. proof i am not lying btw/ (http://www.f150forum.com/f6/c-compressor-seized-16005/) at a low enough RPM, (assuming 700-2000), the compressor can definitely stop your engine.

The LS2 and LS6 have different reluctor wheels. You will need to replace that if you go LS2. You would also need a tune for the different cam duration and increased displacement of the LS2.

Personally, if I'm you, I pull the A/C drive belt off and try cranking it over. If nothing, I pull the serpentine belt off and do the same thing.

After that, if it's not turning over, I pull the valve covers off and put a square over the springs, make sure none of them are stuck down (showing that they are bent). If they are, then you need to pull the heads and make sure there's no damage to your pistons. You can get a set of 243 heads very reasonably priced.

I cannot envision a scenario in which an LS6 is completely destroyed, barring a hole in a block from a broken crank/rod etc. Especially cannot see a motor just "seizing up" in 6th with 45 psi of readable oil pressure.

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You could put your heads, cam and intake manifold in/on an LS1 short block and basically make an LS6. There are some improvements to the LS6 block relative to the LS1, but for a daily driver it wouldn't really matter. The LS6 H/C/I are significantly better than the LS1 bits, so you would need to swap that stuff over or you'd take a pretty big hit in performance (and would need to retune the ECU).


The LS2 is actually just 06/07, but whatever. It's not a straight swap, as the LS6 is a Gen III engine and the LS2 is Gen IV, which means there are some differences in the cam and crank triggering and a couple other electrical things.


Here's a pretty good summary (http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-external-engine/1380556-ls3-swap-into-ls6-cts-v.html) of what it takes to put an LS3 into an LS6 car. I think that all of that would apply to an LS2 as well; someone will correct if I'm wrong, I'm sure. :)

you pretty much beat me to it. the reluctor wheel is among the biggest (24x vs 58x, iirc)

the LS3 swap is pretty much MAF/MAP/CrankPS (and I think cam ps is the same - could be wrong)

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You could put your heads, cam and intake manifold in/on an LS1 short block and basically make an LS6. There are some improvements to the LS6 block relative to the LS1, but for a daily driver it wouldn't really matter. The LS6 H/C/I are significantly better than the LS1 bits, so you would need to swap that stuff over or you'd take a pretty big hit in performance (and would need to retune the ECU).


The LS2 is actually just 06/07, but whatever. It's not a straight swap, as the LS6 is a Gen III engine and the LS2 is Gen IV, which means there are some differences in the cam and crank triggering and a couple other electrical things.


Here's a pretty good summary (http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-external-engine/1380556-ls3-swap-into-ls6-cts-v.html) of what it takes to put an LS3 into an LS6 car. I think that all of that would apply to an LS2 as well; someone will correct if I'm wrong, I'm sure. :)

you pretty much beat me to it. the reluctor wheel is among the biggest (24x vs 58x, iirc)

the LS3 swap is pretty much MAF/MAP/CrankPS (and I think cam ps is the same - could be wrong)

HAMSTAR
05-01-13, 01:12 AM
Just found out Jeff re-opened his shop, which had burned down in a fire. This number goes to his cell phone: 410-766-7PSI Best thing to do is to email him, though, and I sent you his email address.

TERP V
05-01-13, 06:07 PM
I cannot envision a scenario in which an LS6 is completely destroyed, barring a hole in a block from a broken crank/rod etc.[COLOR="Silver"]
And there we have it. The guys that have the car took a closer look today, and sure enough its clearly visible that a rod has apparently attempted escape through the bottom of the block and nearly succeeded. :(

Thanks for all the detailed answers and links above, I need to catch my breath and take it all in before I decide what to do. Luckily its not a daily driver. This whole work thing sure gets in the way too.

Hamstar - Thanks for Jeff's number/email, I'm sure he'll be on my contact list. Sucks his shop burned down, too bad my car wasnt in there when it did :bang2:

FuzzyLogic - do you know when you'll be upgrading? Mileage/mods on your LS6?

FuzzyLogic
05-01-13, 06:23 PM
Sorry to hear about your motor, Terp. Getting the motor swap done on my V keeps getting pushed back due to the difficulty in coordinating a 3 day weekend and a location where I can have the motor shipped to and do the swap. Having someone that's interested in taking this motor off my hands (or even doing the swap simultaneously) would make the logistics vastly easier.

The LS2 motor has 28,000 miles. 422 RWHP/383 RWTQ on a Mustang dyno with a TRuTorq L3 cam. Cam and Comp 26926 dual springs / Trunnion upgrade / hardened 7.425" Comp pushrods have about 6,000 miles on them. Would like to include the alternator, oil pump, water pump, fuel injectors, and professionally ported LS2 intake manifold (LS2 Port Works) with the motor. I have extra K&N and Lingenfelter intake tubes if you still have your old one. You can also grab the tune if you have HP Tuners or want to take your car for a tune at Slowhawk, where they'll be managing the initial startup and tune of the LS3 (I'll have to rent a trailer).

johnashleyv
05-01-13, 06:40 PM
Terp, I hate to say this but I wish this would happen to me, haha. Im looking for a excuse to get a new motor and the one I want does cost right around the $6,000 mark. Look up a company called Wegner Motorsports out of Wisconsin. Otherwise call West Bend Dyno tuning. That motor with your motor as a core will get you to where you may want to be and will put you at about 600hp to the crank. This is what my plan is but need to motor to go first cuz the other half thinks that is to expensive right now haah

robojesus
05-01-13, 08:54 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ls1-ls6-aluminum-short-block-clevite-main-cam-rod-bearings-New-TMS-pistons-/270998456713?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f18c44989&vxp=mtr

That's the guy I bought my engine from, his name is Kyle Thompson, the owner of Thompson Motorsports, I would suggest you give him a call before you spend a dime. 1-972-853-0518

He's based in texas. I would never deal with anyone else. Tell him Kevin Z sent you.

AAIIIC
05-02-13, 11:51 AM
Pretty crazy that the engine ate itself while just cruising along on the highway. Do you have any idea what sort of history the car had before you bought it? One would think it wasn't beat on too much if it was completely stock, but I guess you never know.


Believe me I'm all for breaking it is upgrade time, but the wallet can't handle too much. What are my options other than a new LS6 if it comes to that? LS2? LS3 seems to cost about the same, makes more power... I've seen all the LS#'s thrown about, but again cost IS a factor, and a complicated conversion/install is over my head I imagine... Also throwing major upgraded horsepower at my whiny rear diff worries me as well.

Saw an interesting remanufacturer called ProMar Precision Engines in NJ that offers an LS6 long block package for 3K (with 3 year unlimited mileage warranty), but I assume they wouldn't want my core, so not sure what the upcharge would be...
Based on what you've told us thus far, it seems like these ProMar guys may be your best bet. I took a look at their website and it almost sounds too good to be true! If you can find some independent verification that they're legit (and that their warranty is legit, just in case) I would probably suggest you go that route.

Obviously it really depends on what your plans for the car are and what the ol' wallet can afford if you do decide to upgrade now.

TERP V
05-06-13, 12:39 PM
Having someone that's interested in taking this motor off my hands (or even doing the swap simultaneously) would make the logistics vastly easier.
Wow, sounds like a good buy, however I have to agree the logistics are pretty tough - being in Maryland sure doesn't help me...


Terp, I hate to say this but I wish this would happen to me, haha.
Know exactly what you mean bro!


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ls1-ls6-aluminum-short-block-clevite-main-cam-rod-bearings-New-TMS-pistons-/270998456713?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f18c44989&vxp=mtr

That's the guy I bought my engine from, his name is Kyle Thompson, the owner of Thompson Motorsports, I would suggest you give him a call before you spend a dime. 1-972-853-0518.
Thanks for the link/info! What did you buy from him?


Pretty crazy that the engine ate itself while just cruising along on the highway. Do you have any idea what sort of history the car had before you bought it? One would think it wasn't beat on too much if it was completely stock, but I guess you never know.


Based on what you've told us thus far, it seems like these ProMar guys may be your best bet. I took a look at their website and it almost sounds too good to be true! If you can find some independent verification that they're legit (and that their warranty is legit, just in case) I would probably suggest you go that route.

Obviously it really depends on what your plans for the car are and what the ol' wallet can afford if you do decide to upgrade now.
As far as history, my understanding was that it had been a GM "program" car, however I bought it from a small used car dealer who had picked it up at auction. Ran fine from the day I bought it till it died. Sure didn't seem beat up to me.

I took the car back from my mechanic and brought it home till I figure this out. One of the guys there told me their GM guy had stopped by, and said when this happens its always with the stick shift. um, duh, though I guess in the Vette you could get an automatic... He also implied it was always from a driver mistake/abuse, over rev or missed shift or something. Not the case - I'd admit it. He also knew which cylinder it was, which is aggravating in that it means "known problem" to me.

Also, I noticed one of the motors I was watching on eBay came back down in price ($6200), I messaged them to see about deleting the transmission to save $$, though I realize I could try to sell it myself...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111047587406?item=111047587406&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

Will be making contacts this week hopefully re: the many ideas from the thread.

AAIIIC
05-06-13, 01:34 PM
Looks like that one (item #111047587406) has sold - did you pick it up?

I found my new LS6 long block through www.newgmengines.com a couple years ago. I don't know if they would be able to scounge one up now, but it can't hurt to give them a call.

If you've got some place to work on the car, then you might see about pulling the intake manifold and heads to check them out. If they look good (or can be fixed), then you can shop for just a short block, which will be quite a bit more economical. In my case, cylinder #5 was the source of the failure, and the head had taken a pounding in that cylinder (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Blown%20Engine/cyl%20head%20no5%20damage1.jpg), but TEA was able to fix the head (and I also had them port the heads). I had to scrap the intake manifold, but that gave me a reason to find a used FAST 92 to upgrade. :)

TERP V
05-06-13, 03:40 PM
Looks like that one (item #111047587406) has sold - did you pick it up?

I found my new LS6 long block through www.newgmengines.com a couple years ago. I don't know if they would be able to scounge one up now, but it can't hurt to give them a call.

If you've got some place to work on the car, then you might see about pulling the intake manifold and heads to check them out. If they look good (or can be fixed), then you can shop for just a short block, which will be quite a bit more economical. In my case, cylinder #5 was the source of the failure, and the head had taken a pounding in that cylinder (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Blown%20Engine/cyl%20head%20no5%20damage1.jpg), but TEA was able to fix the head (and I also had them port the heads). I had to scrap the intake manifold, but that gave me a reason to find a used FAST 92 to upgrade. :)
No, it wasn't me, I guess one of the other watchers saw the discount kick in and went for it. They replied that they wouldn't delete the transmission at this time.
Checked in with newgmengines, he replied that at one time he had 185 of them going for $2500 ea but they are all gone. Yup, agreed on that last part, gotta determine if the heads/etc are any good...Didn't realize the intake manifold could've received damage :helpless:
Promar has responded that they can't help without a good core.
Powertrain Products has also responded with a no go.[COLOR="Silver"]

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LS6Steve
05-06-13, 05:53 PM
Similar happened to me; but I cracked a piston at 70K and engine was toast.

Being in CA, I didn't have many options for a power rebuild, so I ended up going with a Jasper rebuild. They will remanufacture your LS6 with your core, and warranty it for 100k. You can upgrade parts too if you want. They did a great job on mine, motor is perfect now. It was just over $5k.

Since you're in a state with nicer smog laws, may as well find a local builder and have some fun. I wish I could have.

robojesus
05-06-13, 10:12 PM
TERP V, an iron block 408.

AAIIIC
05-07-13, 12:47 AM
Didn't realize the intake manifold could've received damage :helpless:
Mine had a lot of shrapnel in it (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Blown%20Engine/intake%20surprise1.jpg), but then my engine failed at about 6300rpm, so there was quite a bit of energy to throw bits and pieces everywhere. Depending on what happened, you may find yours is fine.

Here's the full story (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/262866-how-replace-upgrade-your-ls6-only.html) on my engine failure and subsequent replacement.

TERP V
05-08-13, 11:47 AM
They will remanufacture your LS6 with your core, and warranty it for 100k. You can upgrade parts too if you want.
Still waiting to hear back from them, but I don't think they'll want my core...


TERP V, an iron block 408.
Oh ok, is that a common upgrade? Sounds like your happy with it, any Pro's/Con's to share?


Mine had a lot of shrapnel in it (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Blown%20Engine/intake%20surprise1.jpg), but then my engine failed at about 6300rpm, so there was quite a bit of energy to throw bits and pieces everywhere. Depending on what happened, you may find yours is fine.

Here's the full story (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/262866-how-replace-upgrade-your-ls6-only.html) on my engine failure and subsequent replacement.
Wow, that was quite a project, good for you! Great pictures, I'll be sure to get some when I get mine torn apart. So I guess they figured the tune out when you finally got the car back. Ever get that radiator on?