: Is the BMW 328i really so much faster?



ATScape
04-30-13, 01:13 AM
Hi I am new to the forum but I am a long time gear head. In fact the ATS 2.0t 6M I just leased is my first new car ever because all my other cars are home built modded street monsters.

My question is based on the fact that even though the beemer is underrated, both cars produce about the same power at the wheels. Also they weigh about the same and are geared pretty short. In most of the magazines they are pretty even 0-30 but then the beemer runs away by as much as .5s to sixty and has 0.3s and 2 mph higher trap in the 1/4. The 0-60 is affected by the extra shift but the trap should be closer. Even the Vtuned ATS barley ran faster than the BMW with 291hp and 300+ ft.lbs at the wheels. What is up with this? :confused: I figure its either a power band advantage or a lack of power in the pre-production cars the mags tested. Anyone have some insight? Has anyone run a 328i?

Thanks

SLA
04-30-13, 09:58 AM
I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith into magazine tests. Manufacturers have been known to send tweaked testers out.

That extra shift makes a huge difference. In my LGT, I could do about 5.5 to 60 in it stock, but with just a reflash that raised the rev limiter and added about 25hp/30tq, that number dropped to 5.0.

ATScape
04-30-13, 10:15 AM
Thanks SLA. Yea Im aware of the whole magazine ringer car deal, but I figure both manufacturers would do it so it would be a fair comparison. That's why I was asking if anyone has run one on the track or maybe a short street run to see if it is really that much faster. The 0-60 difference is understandable do to the extra cog, but the 2mph trap advantage should not be the case if the power is so similar and aero is not hugely different.

Wow half second off with a tune that's pretty awesome. Who tuned it and how did you measure those times?

Thanks again.
Laz

SLA
04-30-13, 12:28 PM
Another thing to consider is that many of those early tests were done with the pre-sale 6MT that magazine testers highly criticized due to vagueness and high effort shifts. I've seen the difference in traps at 1.3 mph with the pre-sale shifter. That's really not too far off. It's certainly a driver's race at that point. If you figure the increased time they're off the accelerator due to focusing on not missing a shift, one could see where they were losing some mph on the back end.

I have a Cobb Accessport for my LGT. I achieved those numbers with Cobbs off the shelf 93 Stg 1 tune. It's a lot more tuned now, but I hardly drive it anymore.

xtheunknown
04-30-13, 12:59 PM
This could be anything. I'm assuming they didn't test head-to-head and we're comparing numbers from different days. I would think that if the weather conditions were very different, the results could be skewed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a car run better (and faster?) on a cool day versus a hot day?

ATScape
04-30-13, 01:15 PM
Yea I mean they are not far off enough that a good driver cant make up the difference, but doesnt seem right that the cars are so closely matched and the beemer has an advantage at all. Always hear good things about Cobb.

Well usually the comparisons are done on the same day when they are head to head. One in particular was done on the same day at Road Atlanta (C/D I think). Hopefully they will do a rematch with production car soon.[COLOR="Silver"]

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blue_skies
04-30-13, 02:57 PM
Thanks SLA. Yea Im aware of the whole magazine ringer car deal, but I figure both manufacturers would do it so it would be a fair comparison. That's why I was asking if anyone has run one on the track or maybe a short street run to see if it is really that much faster. The 0-60 difference is understandable do to the extra cog, but the 2mph trap advantage should not be the case if the power is so similar and aero is not hugely different.

Wow half second off with a tune that's pretty awesome. Who tuned it and how did you measure those times?

Thanks again.
Laz

It can be, depending when the up-shift occurs. If you 'optimize' for 0-60 and 1/4 mile, than you select different ratio's than if you optimize for fuel economy or car responsiveness.

Having 2 extra gears helps here.

What I remember from the reviewers is that acceleration and drive-ability are not the same. The acceleration difference has to be large to overcome drive-ability issues, like road holding, cornering, weight distribution, stability at speeds.

The ATS seems to match the BMW-3 for lap times, in different comparable trims, showing that the extra gears do not really help here.

In real traffic however, you seldom run a 1/4 mile (as you would exceed posted speed limits), and acceleration from a traffic light doesn't really change by a great deal - a 1/10th of a second is nothing compared to the other cars that may be a full second slower.

Besides, reaching the posted 0-60 time is not all that easy - go try it. You need launch control, brake/gas interplay, etc.

Bragging rights of course trump everything :)

And yes, knocking off 0.5s is quite impressive!

ATScape
04-30-13, 03:19 PM
The test I was referring to was between the 6M 328i and 6M ATS but I get what you mean. The good news is I just found out a co-worker has a 328i sedan with the sport package and he has agreed to a friendly run. His is auto though. Im more of an autox and motox guy but I'll try my best to get a good launch and represent for caddy. I'll keep you posted.

donavo
04-30-13, 03:40 PM
The test I was referring to was between the 6M 328i and 6M ATS but I get what you mean. The good news is I just found out a co-worker has a 328i sedan with the sport package and he has agreed to a friendly run. His is auto though. Im more of an autox and motox guy but I'll try my best to get a good launch and represent for caddy. I'll keep you posted.


cant wait to see how this turns out.

ATScape
05-02-13, 08:08 PM
Update: My co-worker and I have been trying to set something up after work but everyday has been pouring rain down here in Miami around 4:30pm. As luck would have it today was pretty dry around my job but he brought his wife's Hyundai Genesis to work. So I ran the genesis (4.6 V8) from a 20 roll and we stayed door to door till about 80. This occurred in an abandoned warehouse district with no posted limits behind an airport so I didn't wanna get crazy with the speeds (getting old I guess). Not sure what this says about the car but Im pretty happy...
Has anyone run anything else?

donavo
05-02-13, 08:24 PM
Update: My co-worker and I have been trying to set something up after work but everyday has been pouring rain down here in Miami around 4:30pm. As luck would have it today was pretty dry around my job but he brought his wife's Hyundai Genesis to work. So I ran the genesis (4.6 V8) from a 20 roll and we stayed door to door till about 80. This occurred in an abandoned warehouse district with no posted limits behind an airport so I didn't wanna get crazy with the speeds (getting old I guess). Not sure what this says about the car but Im pretty happy...
Has anyone run anything else?

dam a v8. doesnt taht thing have like 400+ hp? either way thats good i think.

blue_skies
05-02-13, 09:19 PM
Update: My co-worker and I have been trying to set something up after work but everyday has been pouring rain down here in Miami around 4:30pm. As luck would have it today was pretty dry around my job but he brought his wife's Hyundai Genesis to work. So I ran the genesis (4.6 V8) from a 20 roll and we stayed door to door till about 80. This occurred in an abandoned warehouse district with no posted limits behind an airport so I didn't wanna get crazy with the speeds (getting old I guess). Not sure what this says about the car but Im pretty happy...
Has anyone run anything else?

Looks like you are beginning to match the 3.6L then:

http://www.zeroto60times.com/Hyundai-0-60-mph-Times.html


2009 Hyundai Genesis 4.6 Sedan 0-60 mph 5.5 Quarter Mile 13.9 ★ Editor's Choice ★



http://www.zeroto60times.com/Cadillac-Caddy-0-60-mph-Times.html


2013 Cadillac ATS Performance (3.6L, Auto) 0-60 mph 5.3 Quarter Mile 13.8



http://www.zeroto60times.com/BMW-Bimmer-0-60-mph-Times.html


2012 BMW 328i Sedan Sport (Auto) 0-60 mph 5.5 Quarter Mile 14.0

ATScape
05-02-13, 11:12 PM
His is a 2011
Here:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1104_2011_chrysler_300c_hyundai_genesis_comparison/viewall.html

And it was from a roll so I got a slight jump while it kicked down a few gears

ATScape
05-11-13, 04:06 PM
FTI. Finally ran the 328i. No dig cause he didn't want to but did a 20 roll along with a buddies Altima 2.5. He honked it off, (I brake boosted a little if I'm honest) and jump out a fender to half car on the 328i. Stayed there till I shifted to 3rd where he came up to my front tire and we had to let off. It kinda felt like the car fell into some lag from 2nd to 3rd, but maybe. Its the the fact he crept up. Altima was left behind. After he claimed to be in comfort mode...don't know how much difference it makes but he says it shifts slower.
Now he says he's getting a Berger or (burger...?) tune.

cdp
05-12-13, 02:05 PM
Having test driven both, I have to say the 328 felt stronger to me. If I had decided to get another BMW I was actually going to get the 328 because it felt nearly as fast as the 335 with less weight up front. With the ATS, the 2.0 seemed quite a bit slower than the 3.6 (turbo lag was pretty noticeable) so I went with the latter, even though that meant switching to auto trans after 30 years of manuals. All test driving was done with autos...no manuals on either lot.

thebigjimsho
05-12-13, 03:23 PM
Turbo motors need to break in more than NA. If I were to get an ATS 2.0T, I'd be asking for rides in current owner's cars...

ATScape
05-12-13, 04:37 PM
I believe the 328 is faster, it definitely stopped my pull and and even crept up in just a one gear pull. But I really think the difference is not much and is mostly up to driver capability if they are both manuals.

donavo
05-12-13, 05:20 PM
Turbo motors need to break in more than NA. If I were to get an ATS 2.0T, I'd be asking for rides in current owner's cars...

then ur car wouldnt break in.....it would just sit there....
also, i heard nowdays cars are sold pre-broken in. regardless of that, i take it very easy the first 3k miles on a new car.

ATScape
05-15-13, 08:16 PM
Well guys I drove the Beemer today at lunch time and...I am must say 328i with the sport pkg is a superior vehicle in almost all driving aspects over my base suspension ATS. Also the motor is so much smoother and pulls harder everywhere, even with the auto. No lag and sounds sweeter. The only gripes with car include the start/stop engine function and the bland interior. The only thing that made me feel better about this experience is the fact that I'm paying about $150 less a month than him. He drove my car and agreed on all points. But definitely getting a Beemer over a caddy for my next car unless Cadillac does a way better job with the ATS-V.

donavo
05-15-13, 08:19 PM
well guys i drove the beemer today at lunch time and...i am must say 328i with the sport pkg is a superior vehicle in almost all driving aspects over my base suspension ats. Also the motor is so much smoother and pulls harder everywhere, even with the auto. No lag and sounds sweeter. The only gripes with car include the start/stop engine function and the bland interior. The only thing that made me feel better about this experience is the fact that i'm paying about $150 less a month than him. He drove my car and agreed on all points. But definitely getting a beemer over a caddy for my next car unless cadillac does a way better job with the ats-v.


noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :'(

ATScape
05-15-13, 10:06 PM
Sorry man hurts me too, I still have 3 yrs left with this car....but gotta be honest. I really tried not to like it cus I'm usually anti Beemer fan boy but I would just be fooling myself

Siren05
05-15-13, 10:44 PM
I believe the car has been underrated I'm referring to the 328 I'm pretty sure
The actual hp and Tq numbers are
270 hp and 290 tq another factor is the close ratio 8 speed transmission which keeps you in boost all the
time.
The 335 is underrated aswell dramatically.

ATScape
05-15-13, 10:54 PM
Yea well the HP under rating is no secret. The tranny is wonderful, I've never owned an auto in my life and refused to give into them, but I would own this one. The car just felt better. Maybe if I drove an ATS with the Mag-suspension it would turn the tables handling wise, but....

thebigjimsho
05-15-13, 11:34 PM
Meh, whatever.

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Sure, just compare a base ATS to a Sport package 3. Just about every review declared the ATS a more competent, and fun, car in the handling department.

donavo
05-16-13, 12:02 AM
Yea well the HP under rating is no secret. The tranny is wonderful, I've never owned an auto in my life and refused to give into them, but I would own this one. The car just felt better. Maybe if I drove an ATS with the Mag-suspension it would turn the tables handling wise, but....

this is blasphemy....this is MADNESS! BNR CANCEL HIS TUNE PURCHASE! he doesnt deserve it anymore......hes no longer one of us.

ATScape
05-16-13, 08:08 AM
I thk it def had to do with the sport package thats why i wanna drive a MAS ATS.

@Donavo Lol believe it or not i was on the fence and this is what convinced to get the tune cus I knew this will keep bugging me, and now I'm looking into suspension upgrades.

Hohums
05-16-13, 09:41 AM
I test-drove a the 328i and the other German sedans before going for the 2.0T ATS.

The power delivery in the 328i felt a little stronger, but the numbers (and your own tests) would indicate real-world differences are very minor. I actually preferred the handling characteristics of the ATS to the 328i by quite a long way.

Are you sure it's not buyer's remorse?? The grass is always greener, as they say... :)

ATScape
05-16-13, 12:07 PM
Don't get me wrong, for what Im paying Im happy with the car, Im just saying I wouldn't mind paying a little more if I can for that car. I really think it was the sport pkg/trans combo that made it feel so nice. I was rounding a wide sweeper while accelerating, getting pushed back in the seat and flipping thru the gears and I just thought to myself....wow. I still like the caddys looks better and the interior, and if the ATS-V comes out with a good gear box/engine combo I would prob get it over the beemer. I have a feeling the next iterations of the ATS will be more refined.

gohawks63
05-17-13, 12:12 AM
I test-drove a the 328i and the other German sedans before going for the 2.0T ATS.

The power delivery in the 328i felt a little stronger, but the numbers (and your own tests) would indicate real-world differences are very minor. I actually preferred the handling characteristics of the ATS to the 328i by quite a long way.

Are you sure it's not buyer's remorse?? The grass is always greener, as they say... :)

Glad to see that it wasn't just my imagination. See my comments in the ATS vs BMW thread as I got the chance to drive both an ATS Performance 2.0T and a BMW 328xi loaner.

ATScape
05-17-13, 08:01 AM
Well you had the opposite experience driving the performance ATS vs a heavier awd loaner 328xi non sport. So I guess it could be the sport pkg on each car hat makes a difference. However i believe the 328xi should not feel more powerful than the ATS with the extra heft unless it really is that much more powerful. What did you think of the AWD system on that car?

gohawks63
05-17-13, 08:36 AM
Well you had the opposite experience driving the performance ATS vs a heavier awd loaner 328xi non sport. So I guess it could be the sport pkg on each car hat makes a difference. However i believe the 328xi should not feel more powerful than the ATS with the extra heft unless it really is that much more powerful. What did you think of the AWD system on that car?

Given that I only drove it a few miles and it's sunny and 80 degrees out I am not sure i noticed anything unique on the 3 series. I am assuming that it is a similar setup as what I have on our X5 which we have driven for much longer.

I have had a few AWD cars over the years. I will exclude our past Toyota Landcruisers which is a different type of vehicle altogether as that legendary AWD system is meant for rock crawling as opposed to street performance.

In addition to the X5 which we currently own, I also had a 2006 Acura RL with SH-AWD and my current AWD CTS coupe.

SH-AWD in my RL was pretty slick, but it was FWD biased (but would would shift power to the rear) and in order to get the full handling benefits you really had to power through curves to get the torque vectoring system to over drive that rear outer wheel. Most people driving those kids of cars don't really toss their cars around like that. It's one of the reasons why I don't thing Acura got enough credit with their system.

The AWD system in the Caddy is a bit more simple IMO. Even though it's RWD biased, I think it's more of a fouls weather aid than as opposed to a performance enhancer like SH-AWD or xDrive. I. Find that if you cut the wheels too much you can feel the transfer case binding a bit. something I have never felt in my old Acura or in the X5.

xDrive in the BMW is almost invisible. You never really are aware that it is an AWD vehicle. For foul weather, it worked fine in a few Michigan snowstorms we had, and the car handles great in the dry weather. It's unobtrusive and you are never aware that you have an AWD system unless you get to extremes. Now X5s all have xDrive and I haven't driven a BMW RWD sedan to compare so I am not sure I am a reliable source to provide an accurate assessment of the benefits of xDrive in a BMW over one without.