: Tune - Dyno - Vendors



bravnik
04-15-13, 10:58 AM
There are a lot of people on the forums that would like to see the actual dyno sheet for before/after tunes. To date there are none that have been posted and not sure why.

So here is my deal. If a vendor wants to send me a tune I will pay for 3 dyno pulls at a local shop (Dynojet). I will drive there and do a baseline pull. I will then load up whatever tune is provided and I will then do 2 more pulls on said tune. This will be done in uncorrected mode, on the same day with time between pulls to alleviate any heat-soak issues. This will be done on 91oct in CA and I can guarantee I will have the dyno results posted up within an hour of the pulls as well as I will video all pulls.

If the vendor needs to do some custom work to the tune then I will do what is needed for this then remove the tune completely once done before the baseline pull. I will then reinstall the tune so we get a clear picture of the results.

The end result will be to get a good honest example of what we can expect from a tune from said vendor/s. If you want to take me up on this just PM me.

rocco11189
04-15-13, 06:34 PM
In complete agreement. I want to know what I am buying before I go and make the purchase

Hoosier Daddy
04-15-13, 10:04 PM
There is something wrong about this. The purpose of a tune is to increase power and anyone selling tunes must know that. Buying a tune without knowing the power is like buying a house without knowing how many rooms or sqare feet it has. Any businessman knows this. I can't think of ANY reasons not to publish the dyno sheets first other than they don't have a clue themselves what it produces OR they know its less than their customers would expect. Both are reasons for a prudent customer to stay away.

ripped
04-16-13, 08:51 AM
It's in the bnr thread there's vids and dyno sheet

ripped
04-16-13, 08:52 AM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280940

Hoosier Daddy
04-16-13, 10:16 AM
It's in the bnr thread there's vids and dyno sheet


http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280940

I'll say the same thing I did in the other thread you posted that in:


.... that video was on E85, which the car is not designed or tuned for (not to mention 95% of all ATS owners would NOT be using), meaning the base is completely irrelevant, which means the whole thing is useless for making an informed decision.

Then a customer took his car in for back to back dyno runs with and without the tune. He posted stock results and immediately disappeared from the face of the earth. Why? Did his car blow up with the tune? Did it make bad numbers?

I get it that BNR may be gear heads that don't have a clue about marketing. Maybe this is a great product. But they have not answered customer questions or provided information necessary for an INFORMED buying decision. Maybe they are happy with the sales numbers from people willing to take a leap of faith but they are obviously (from the questions and posts and common sense) losing out on sales to people who want to know what they are getting for their money.

bravnik
04-16-13, 10:33 AM
Actually it's not in the thread you posted as that dyno was done using E85 (or mix) which an ATS untuned should never run thus the very low number. Then they did a tuned run which of course tuned will be a very high number because it's again E85 and now tuned for it.

Look I don't expect huge numbers without supporting mods. My guess is that with a tune we will see a modest 30HP gain give or take followed by another 20hp gain with a CAI. After that the HP per mod will decrease. Based on my experience with a tuned DI engine, we will never see 300WHP on 91oct without the supporting mods. That's just unrealistic expectations to me and to be honest not what I want to do. For me the purpose of a tune is to have the car simply run better throughout the entire band. That would make me happy.

The issue is that thus far there has not been one Dyno sheet posted with a valid baseline and tune run on everyday gas. This is what I'm willing to help with if a vendor wants to have it done by a non-biased person. If I can show a solid 30WHP gain on 91 OCT crappy CA gas, then the rest will be even happier on their 93. Simple as that. People should not expect a 50+ WHP gain without supporting mods as it's not realistic on such a small motor.

What I want to see most is a CAI as that will/should give a nice HP upgrade. On my old Mazdaspeed 3 we saw a 20-30WHP gain with just a CAI and no tune. However, on the Downpipe side on the DI engine we actually saw a loss of power due to no back pressure (at least that was the thinking). Weird I know but the DI engines are strange but the MS3 didn't use a twin scroll turbo like the ATS so maybe that will not be the case. On my Mazdaspeed 3 with full bolt-on support (CAI, Turbo Inlet, FMIC, DownPipe, Fuel Pump, Tune) the most I ever saw on a dyno was 298WHP and 327TQ running a mix of 91OCT and 100OCT race gas (probably around 93-96OCT overall).

Hoosier Daddy
04-16-13, 02:13 PM
Miksul emailed me his dyno sheet and text files. Thanks, Mike. This is what a lot of people want to see before buying.

I resized the dyno sheet to display better on forums. Here it is, text values for anyone wanting to convert to a spreadsheet or see precise numbers for an RPM are below.

The first run is stock and the others are with the tune and around 5 minutes apart. I'll let Mike post any other data such as fuel used, etc..

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8122/8656041796_c99d597d7e_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31881823@N06/8656041796/)
Here are the detail numbers:


Dynojet Research Inc.
Run Name: C:\DynoRuns\miranda\RunFile_017.drf
Run Title:
Run Notes:
Run Date: 5/6/2002 3:18:11 AM

RunFile_017.drf: 77.75 F 30.05 in-Hg Humidity: 5 % STD: 1.00 Average Gear Ratio: 59.69

s RPM x1000 hp mph ft-lbs
0.32 3.30 47.51 55.80 75.65
0.74 3.40 88.05 57.03 135.99
1.04 3.50 119.56 58.64 179.40
1.27 3.60 150.03 60.12 218.87
1.52 3.70 154.87 61.85 219.84
1.76 3.80 157.95 63.54 218.32
2.00 3.90 165.18 65.19 222.46
2.23 4.00 169.12 66.83 222.06
2.47 4.10 174.83 68.53 223.97
2.71 4.20 179.49 70.21 224.45
2.96 4.30 180.55 71.94 220.54
3.20 4.40 181.93 73.60 217.17
3.42 4.50 193.51 75.13 225.85
3.65 4.60 206.58 76.85 235.88
3.89 4.70 205.20 78.58 229.30
4.13 4.80 203.59 80.29 222.76
4.38 4.90 203.44 82.02 218.06
4.63 5.00 205.64 83.72 216.01
4.89 5.10 205.68 85.43 211.82
5.14 5.20 211.36 87.11 213.48
5.38 5.30 217.65 88.76 215.67
5.63 5.40 222.19 90.45 216.11
5.89 5.50 222.43 92.17 212.40
6.15 5.60 224.87 93.90 210.90
6.41 5.70 225.23 95.63 207.54
6.68 5.80 223.04 97.37 201.97
6.97 5.90 220.31 99.14 196.13
7.26 6.00 217.99 100.87 190.82
7.55 6.10 217.78 102.59 187.52
--------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
MAX: 7.55 6.10 225.23 102.59 235.88
MIN: 0.32 3.30 47.51 55.80 75.65

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dynojet Research Inc.
Run Name: C:\DynoRuns\miranda\RunFile_020.drf
Run Title:
Run Notes:
Run Date: 5/6/2002 3:23:34 AM

RunFile_020.drf: 77.04 F 30.04 in-Hg Humidity: 5 % STD: 1.00 Average Gear Ratio: 59.93

s RPM x1000 hp mph ft-lbs
0.52 3.50 48.90 58.85 73.34
0.87 3.60 104.29 60.27 152.13
1.13 3.70 131.97 61.67 187.29
1.29 3.80 169.05 62.81 233.57
1.50 3.90 195.02 64.52 262.63
1.70 4.00 200.22 66.22 262.90
1.90 4.10 202.19 67.90 259.00
2.11 4.20 206.15 69.63 257.79
2.31 4.30 208.37 71.28 254.50
2.53 4.40 209.15 73.02 249.66
2.74 4.50 216.81 74.67 253.05
2.95 4.60 219.68 76.35 250.83
3.16 4.70 223.02 78.05 249.22
3.37 4.80 228.89 79.70 250.45
3.59 4.90 232.30 81.44 249.00
3.80 5.00 233.73 83.12 245.51
4.02 5.10 239.90 84.79 247.05
4.24 5.20 244.45 86.51 246.90
4.46 5.30 244.95 88.22 242.74
4.69 5.40 244.86 89.97 238.16
4.93 5.50 243.66 91.75 232.69
5.18 5.60 241.56 93.53 226.56
5.43 5.70 234.86 95.32 216.41
5.72 5.80 224.10 97.21 202.94
6.00 5.90 218.74 98.93 194.72
6.29 6.00 221.64 100.69 194.02
6.60 6.10 214.25 102.49 184.46
6.92 6.20 212.22 104.34 179.72
--------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
MAX: 6.92 6.20 244.95 104.34 262.90
MIN: 0.52 3.50 48.90 58.85 73.34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dynojet Research Inc.
Run Name: C:\DynoRuns\miranda\RunFile_019.drf
Run Title:
Run Notes:
Run Date: 5/6/2002 3:22:36 AM

RunFile_019.drf: 77.04 F 30.05 in-Hg Humidity: 5 % STD: 1.00 Average Gear Ratio: 54.00

s RPM x1000 hp mph ft-lbs
0.39 3.20 91.19 53.70 149.60
0.67 3.30 114.79 55.23 182.68
0.86 3.40 143.34 56.48 221.36
1.06 3.50 163.86 58.07 245.87
1.25 3.60 180.72 59.61 263.64
1.43 3.70 194.33 61.17 275.83
1.62 3.80 203.75 62.87 281.62
1.81 3.90 206.97 64.57 278.72
2.01 4.00 206.67 66.30 271.36
2.20 4.10 209.12 67.98 267.89
2.40 4.20 214.31 69.66 268.00
2.61 4.30 215.82 71.40 263.61
2.80 4.40 218.61 73.04 260.94
3.00 4.50 225.73 74.72 263.46
3.21 4.60 229.77 76.40 262.35
3.40 4.70 236.26 78.06 264.02
3.61 4.80 239.93 79.75 262.53
3.81 4.90 242.79 81.45 260.24
4.02 5.00 245.31 83.16 257.68
4.23 5.10 249.01 84.87 256.44
4.44 5.20 253.36 86.55 255.89
4.66 5.30 251.50 88.34 249.23
4.88 5.40 253.70 90.03 246.75
5.11 5.50 250.05 91.81 238.79
5.36 5.60 245.78 93.61 230.51
5.61 5.70 240.59 95.42 221.70
5.87 5.80 236.18 97.21 213.87
6.15 5.90 229.55 98.98 204.35
6.44 6.00 222.40 100.79 194.67
6.73 6.10 216.20 102.51 186.17
7.03 6.20 221.03 104.25 187.22
7.35 6.30 217.55 106.06 181.04
N/A 6.20 N/A N/A N/A
N/A 6.10 N/A N/A N/A
7.79 6.00 -20.85 106.50 -17.53
7.85 5.90 -21.17 106.46 -18.89
7.92 5.80 -20.22 106.41 -18.49
7.99 5.70 -19.41 106.37 -17.69
8.06 5.60 -18.93 106.33 -17.87
8.13 5.50 -19.19 106.29 -18.30
8.20 5.40 -19.02 106.24 -18.47
8.27 5.30 -18.90 106.20 -18.79
8.35 5.20 -18.90 106.15 -19.04
8.42 5.10 -18.72 106.11 -19.33
8.50 5.00 -19.05 106.06 -19.99
8.58 4.90 -18.96 106.01 -20.33
8.65 4.80 -18.88 105.97 -20.67
8.73 4.70 -18.89 105.92 -21.10
8.82 4.60 -18.80 105.87 -21.49
8.90 4.50 -18.84 105.82 -21.97
8.99 4.40 -18.74 105.76 -22.38
9.09 4.30 -18.95 105.70 -23.14
9.19 4.20 -18.90 105.64 -23.64
9.28 4.10 -18.81 105.59 -24.10
9.38 4.00 -19.05 105.53 -25.03
9.48 3.90 -19.02 105.47 -25.62
9.58 3.80 -18.88 105.41 -26.10
9.68 3.70 -18.88 105.35 -26.81
9.79 3.60 -19.35 105.28 -28.23
9.90 3.50 -20.18 105.21 -30.29
10.01 3.40 -20.03 105.14 -30.95
10.12 3.30 -20.29 105.07 -32.29
10.23 3.20 -20.08 104.99 -32.95
10.35 3.10 -20.12 104.92 -34.09
10.47 3.00 -19.98 104.84 -34.97
10.59 2.90 -20.16 104.77 -36.54
10.70 2.80 -20.14 104.69 -37.61
--------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
MAX: 10.70 6.30 253.70 106.50 281.62
MIN: 0.39 2.80 -21.17 53.70 -37.61

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dynojet Research Inc.
Run Name: C:\DynoRuns\miranda\RunFile_018.drf
Run Title:
Run Notes:
Run Date: 5/6/2002 3:19:50 AM

RunFile_018.drf: 77.61 F 30.05 in-Hg Humidity: 5 % STD: 1.00 Average Gear Ratio: 56.02

s RPM x1000 hp mph ft-lbs
0.20 3.10 N/A 52.47 N/A
0.66 3.20 75.24 53.65 123.48
0.97 3.30 105.43 55.18 167.77
1.18 3.40 137.32 56.52 212.08
1.39 3.50 159.00 58.07 238.58
1.59 3.60 174.27 59.60 254.22
1.78 3.70 189.04 61.21 268.33
1.97 3.80 197.04 62.87 272.34
2.17 3.90 200.34 64.59 269.81
2.37 4.00 201.16 66.30 264.13
2.57 4.10 203.80 67.98 261.07
2.78 4.20 206.72 69.67 258.50
2.98 4.30 210.68 71.37 257.34
3.19 4.40 212.49 73.06 253.64
3.40 4.50 218.23 74.73 254.71
3.60 4.60 223.46 76.36 255.13
3.82 4.70 226.02 78.11 252.57
4.03 4.80 226.52 79.82 247.85
4.25 4.90 229.17 81.51 245.63
4.47 5.00 234.41 83.21 246.24
4.69 5.10 233.93 84.96 240.91
4.92 5.20 236.61 86.64 238.97
5.15 5.30 235.77 88.38 233.65
5.39 5.40 237.47 90.11 230.98
5.63 5.50 236.10 91.85 225.45
5.88 5.60 234.04 93.63 219.51
6.16 5.70 225.22 95.45 207.52
6.43 5.80 221.57 97.19 200.66
6.72 5.90 219.14 98.95 195.05
7.03 6.00 211.27 100.76 184.94
7.34 6.10 205.60 102.53 177.09
7.66 6.20 206.89 104.25 175.27
8.01 6.30 197.96 106.06 164.99
8.41 6.40 173.49 108.03 143.30
N/A 6.30 N/A N/A N/A
N/A 6.20 N/A N/A N/A
N/A 6.10 N/A N/A N/A
N/A 6.00 N/A N/A N/A
9.13 5.90 -33.90 108.58 -29.05
9.20 5.80 -33.58 108.51 -30.55
9.26 5.70 -32.99 108.44 -30.73
9.33 5.60 -32.79 108.38 -30.35
9.40 5.50 -32.38 108.31 -31.22
9.47 5.40 -32.04 108.24 -31.04
9.55 5.30 -31.39 108.18 -31.08
9.62 5.20 -31.09 108.11 -31.52
9.70 5.10 -31.54 108.04 -32.34
9.77 5.00 -31.40 107.97 -33.11
9.85 4.90 -31.05 107.90 -33.19
9.93 4.80 -30.76 107.83 -33.71
10.01 4.70 -30.87 107.76 -34.49
10.09 4.60 -31.07 107.68 -35.46
10.17 4.50 -30.81 107.61 -35.98
10.25 4.40 -30.62 107.53 -36.52
10.34 4.30 -30.19 107.46 -36.92
10.43 4.20 -30.41 107.38 -38.00
10.52 4.10 -30.69 107.30 -39.34
10.61 4.00 -30.08 107.21 -39.47
10.70 3.90 -29.92 107.13 -40.33
10.80 3.80 -30.20 107.04 -41.61
--------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
MAX: 10.80 6.40 237.47 108.58 272.34
MIN: 0.20 3.10 -33.90 52.47 -41.61

BNRacing
04-16-13, 04:30 PM
We actually found some issues with our tune since he did his dyno runs- we had a few guys that would hit ECM calculated 360+TQ and then fall flat on their face and make 250-270TQ the rest of the pull. I think this is what happened with mikesul's logs as the car wouldn't make full power in 2nd and 3rd. We have resolved that issue. I've contacted mikesul since he does not have that update yet.

In other words, don't put too much faith in that sheet as we've recognized and corrected a problem since then and will be updating his tune shortly.

Hoosier Daddy
04-16-13, 04:47 PM
We actually found some issues with our tune since he did his dyno runs- we had a few guys that would hit ECM calculated 360+TQ and then fall flat on their face and make 250-270TQ the rest of the pull. I think this is what happened with mikesul's logs as the car wouldn't make full power in 2nd and 3rd. We have resolved that issue. I've contacted mikesul since he does not have that update yet.

I suggest you pay Mike for new dyno time with the update unless he has free access to a dyno. Many of us potential customers won't buy until we see customer dyno sheets that verify any claims. You may be honest as the day is long but there are reasons for best practices. When my old man was a bank manager he would tell customers he trusted them explicitly, but they still couldn't go in the vault and make their own withdrawals. ;)

I'm getting the impression you may have known about this "bug" for some time now based on the fact that your said the video dyno run was done in 2nd gear. Someone even asked in this thread on Feb 8 why the run was done in 2nd gear and you never answered. Maybe you could answer now why the dyno run was done in 2nd gear. Thanks.

BNRacing
04-16-13, 05:38 PM
I suggest you pay Mike for new dyno time with the update unless he has free access to a dyno. Many of us potential customers won't buy until we see customer dyno sheets that verify any claims. You may be honest as the day is long but there are reasons for best practices. When my old man was a bank manager he would tell customers he trusted them explicitly, but they still couldn't go in the vault and make their own withdrawals. ;)

I'm getting the impression you may have known about this "bug" for some time now based on the fact that your said the video dyno run was done in 2nd gear. Someone even asked in this thread on Feb 8 why the run was done in 2nd gear and you never answered. Maybe you could answer now why the dyno run was done in 2nd gear. Thanks.

Actually I paid for mike to dyno the first time and the second time and will pay for a third time if he wishes to spend the time to get it done. We're selling several tunes per day as it is, so maybe someone will post a sheet soon. And this issue did not occur on our test car as it was limited to M6 cars and ours is automatic. We did second gear to keep heat soak down since we were doing back to back pulls to demonstrate the selectable tune feature without shutting off the camera.

Hoosier Daddy
04-16-13, 06:32 PM
Actually I paid for mike to dyno the first time and the second time and will pay for a third time if he wishes to spend the time to get it done.
That's very good to know. Thanks for doing that.

----------

Did I read that for manual trans the tune is activated based only on whether cruise control is off or on?

I haven't taken delivery yet (should arrive this week); are you saying manual trans cars don't have a sport mode? And if they do have Sport mode, why is the tune activated/deactivated by cruise control? And does this mean the car will always start with the tune activated and you have to manually turn cruise control on to revert to factory tune? Again, I haven't taken delivery yet but on every car I've ever owned I had to manually turn cruise control on and often never did.

bungee91
04-16-13, 08:16 PM
Did I read that for manual trans the tune is activated based only on whether cruise control is off or on?
Optional, you can choose the sport button OR the cruise control. I chose the cruise as my preference.


I haven't taken delivery yet (should arrive this week); are you saying manual trans cars don't have a sport mode? And if they do have Sport mode, why is the tune activated/deactivated by cruise control?

They have a sport mode. Because you have a choice. For me with MRC, I don't always want stiff suspension + tune, however I'd like the choice to have it off also. The cruise is perfect for this.



And does this mean the car will always start with the tune activated and you have to manually turn cruise control on to revert to factory tune? Again, I haven't taken delivery yet but on every car I've ever owned I had to manually turn cruise control on and often never did.

The cruise in our cars seems to stay in the previous state, so if on previously, it stays on. The tune is setup as cruise on = tune off.

Hoosier Daddy
04-16-13, 08:41 PM
Optional, you can choose the sport button OR the cruise control. I chose the cruise as my preference.

They have a sport mode. Because you have a choice. For me with MRC, I don't always want stiff suspension + tune, however I'd like the choice to have it off also. The cruise is perfect for this.

The cruise in our cars seems to stay in the previous state, so if on previously, it stays on. The tune is setup as cruise on = tune off.
Very nice. Thanks for the explanation. If the car remembers the cruise state, I will be doing it that way. I agree that being able to control the other Sport settings separate is a plus.

sd vidiot
04-25-13, 07:29 PM
If you have the tune activated with cruise control, does cruise control still work?

Groomie
04-25-13, 09:00 PM
All,
I just installed my tune today from bad news racing and as I have no Dyno results the car seems more spunky and has a little more get up and go. I have just sent in my data logs and look forward to some fine tuning and I could not be happier with the support and communication BNR has shown. Overall
impressed and you will be too.

bungee91
04-26-13, 08:46 AM
If you have the tune activated with cruise control, does cruise control still work?

Yes, the cruise works fine and in this way of selecting the tune while using cruise the tune is off.

Psykostevo
05-09-13, 02:59 AM
On the tune is there anyway to increase the pressure factor so that the turbo doesn't dip off at higher RPMs?

I haven't seen the config files for the ATS ECU so I don't know what's in there. I wouldn't think that the stock turbo is so over worked that it struggles so hard up top.

Are you using the Trifecta tuning? If so, as a dealer are you able to see the parameters and tables of the files?

If you aren't using Trifecta for writing the calibration, what software are you using?

ripped
05-09-13, 08:24 AM
All these small turbos run out of steam up top , only way to fix this is upgrade to bigger turbo

JoeyCts
05-09-13, 09:21 PM
My question which I feel like I have ask before .. Being my only car which I tuned..how long do you guy usually ride out in sport mode meaning full tune? getting on the car ?? ( no not beating the thing to death but having some fun) I don't want any problems over abusing the engine .. When I had my CTS (no tune) I would beat on it all the time AND NEVER Had a problem.. If I had no tune in the ATS I fell I would do the same , but the extra hp is so enticing !! I have read posts with people saying just for short bursts ( getting on highway etc..) or not to use it to long when it's to hot ... I am not going to check the temperature outside to see if I can go into sport mode or not lol

BNRacing
05-09-13, 10:33 PM
You won't have any problems. We don't mess with the knock sensors any so as soon as it starts to knock from getting too hot the ECM will automatically kill timing and lower power levels. I don't know if we've mentioned it or not yet but you guys don't HAVE to run the full powered tune. We are happy to lower the power to whatever you want

BLitzkrieg
05-22-13, 09:48 PM
I installed the Trifecta tune on my 2013 ATS Performance 2.0T RWD AT. I have a cold air intake that I built and am prototyping. There were noticeable gains with this intake on the stock vehicle. The weather here is about 86*F and humid.
After installing the tune I have to admit that it wasnt really noticeable at first. As I kept driving and the temps got cooler, it became more noticeable. Below are the results I put together from my datalogs using the Rev App on my iPhone. I used this app because I wanted accelerometer info along with OBDII PIDs. I have the tune setup so that the stock tune resides in the "Touring" setting and the Trifecta tune resides in the "Sport" setting. I used this setting to designate which tune is which in the datalogs below. The datalogs are a 3rd gear pull from 2500 RPMs. Traction control was turned off for these pulls and both runs were done on the same stretch of road.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l247/agennello/TrifectaTunewithCAI_zpsbfbc0d62.png (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/agennello/media/TrifectaTunewithCAI_zpsbfbc0d62.png.html)

YoshiFD3S
05-22-13, 10:05 PM
You won't have any problems. We don't mess with the knock sensors any so as soon as it starts to knock from getting too hot the ECM will automatically kill timing and lower power levels. I don't know if we've mentioned it or not yet but you guys don't HAVE to run the full powered tune. We are happy to lower the power to whatever you want

LOWER the power? Pssh! LOL

By the time I end up buying my tuner module from you guys I'll hopefully have full bolt-ons to support a more AGGRESSIVE tune than what you're generally offering right now! buwahaha! ;D