: This VSport trim thing on the new CTS is LAME



khoeysr
04-02-13, 01:52 PM
I wish that they would not have even thought up this thing. The mere mention of V in a trim level cheapens that actual V experience and undoubtedly will cause a lot of confusion among the uneducated.

There is only one V and we will have to wait to see what it looks and acts like.

Of course, this is only my opinion. I am interested in what my brothers and sisters here have to say.

RGaret
04-02-13, 01:55 PM
+1 on this. They should change this right away. Bad idea to have a V Sport designation.

pat2t2f
04-02-13, 02:00 PM
I don't know that "Vsport" is bad but I am not happy about the V logo with the flag even if the flag is different. If it said Vsport that would be fine.

stl_ls1gto
04-02-13, 02:27 PM
since BMW has the M sport.....you know Cadillac needs the V sport

as long as Cadillac can make more profit on it, and keep on producing the true V cars, I am all for it.

USAFRET
04-02-13, 02:40 PM
I can see posts popping up on the various forums about some hero in a "fill-in-the-blank" trashing a CTS-V at the track.

youknooow
04-02-13, 02:44 PM
I wish that they would not have even thought up this thing. The mere mention of V in a trim level cheapens that actual V experience and undoubtedly will cause a lot of confusion among the uneducated.

There is only one V and we will have to wait to see what it looks and acts like.

Of course, this is only my opinion. I am interested in what my brothers and sisters here have to say.

I'm with you and I do like the suggestion Vsport instead of a modified V badge, but I am glad it is on a high-performance vehicle. I remember the first time I saw a SRT Design vehicle, had to look closer to realize it was not an SRT-8.

drios
04-02-13, 03:39 PM
I used to have an F sport Lexus about 2 weeks ago before I made the jump to the V, and im with you guys on this. It just confuses people. My brother had the IS-F and people(dumb people) would think we had the same car. Its a cheap way for people to fake the real thing. Ill admit to it.. lol

Xaqtly
04-02-13, 03:40 PM
Yeah that is really annoying. I saw an SRT Design Charger a couple weeks ago, same thing. I thought it was an SRT8, had to get really close to see that it wasn't. I think the CTS Vsport will be a good car on its own merits, it's not like it's just a badge and some side cladding, I just think they should have kept it separate from the V. Call it the CTS TT or something instead.

stl_ls1gto
04-02-13, 05:05 PM
the people who are truly into cars are going to easily tell the difference between the cars.....to the rest of the people, who cares - they dont know what a cadillac V series is anyway

RobF300
04-02-13, 06:12 PM
you guys really care that much what people who have no idea are thinking?

its a way for people to get a nicer optioned car you think I care of some random idiot confuses it with something else???

neuronbob
04-02-13, 06:58 PM
I LIKE the idea of a middle trim between the regular CTS and the V-series. THAT is a good idea. The 3.6TT seems like a pretty good powerplant with perhaps some modding potential. I only have an issue with the badge. Badge it "Vsport". End of story.

#1stworldproblems :)

NonGoggleGuy
04-02-13, 07:01 PM
This bothers me mostly because they didn't even come CLOSE to matching the specs of the former V. If it had more HP, but was still a TT, it wouldn't bother me. I'm wondering if they're even making a true V for 2014... And 8-speed auto without even optioning a manual!? Are you kidding? Just using the "V" in its name is disgraceful to the breed. It's like when Pontiac decided to badge the G8 with "Firehawk." A nice product, yes... but it ruined the heritage that came with the badge. There's NO SUCH THING as a 4-door Firehawk. Sorry. And also, "Vsport" sounds queer.

If you ask me, an acceptable "upgrade" to the V (besides the facelift) would've been offering a convertible.

usafg8gt
04-02-13, 07:32 PM
Who cares what the "uneducated" think about our cars? And if some dumbass pulls up in his "INSERT DODGE" R/T or Mustang GT thinking he has a chance...then just embarrass his/her ass. Last Thursday I had some dumbass pull up to me in a 2013 Challenger R/T telling me that my "CTS" was heavy and slow...at the next light he didn't even look at me. My favorite thing to do is make the "uneducated" feel stupid...and slow. What's even better is when that person doesn't know how to drive their car.

We had a dyno night at a local speed shop that mostly works on Fords and Mopars...they put mine on the dyno and everyone was taking bets at what it would put down. The guy who RUNS the shop and does most of the work said it would make 280hp...I looked at him and asked if he was serious. He said yes, I told him I would bet my payment for the dyno runs that it would make over 450...it put down 478hp and he had no idea how it did that.

The G8 Firehawk thing was sad though. Really it just came down to SLP trying to make a buck off the Firehawk name.

hulksdaddy
04-02-13, 07:40 PM
Your local speed shop dude is a moe-ron.

JimmyH
04-02-13, 09:05 PM
It's a Jeep thing. You wouldn't understand.

hulksdaddy
04-02-13, 09:14 PM
Thank Thanos I don't.

JimmyH
04-02-13, 09:17 PM
Maybe it was an April fool's joke. After all, google didn't really shutdown Youtube.

usafg8gt
04-02-13, 09:32 PM
Your local speed shop dude is a moe-ron.

LOL he's not MY local speed shop. There aren't any in this area worth taking my car to. If I were to go to one, it would be Redline 3 hours south or one in Orlando my buddy keeps talking about.

ptrd
04-02-13, 09:43 PM
^redline is good.

Trapspeed
04-02-13, 10:14 PM
or one in Orlando my buddy keeps talking about.

Which is that? And do you know how much money you could have made at that dyno day??!! And who gave that Dodge guy a vote? Idiot. Clearly, he's been sleeping under a rock.

usafg8gt
04-02-13, 10:30 PM
Which is that? And do you know how much money you could have made at that dyno day??!! And who gave that Dodge guy a vote? Idiot. Clearly, he's been sleeping under a rock.

I think they're called Performance Race or something like that. Apparently they do a lot of exotics also.

Yeah, I could have made a little bit of money...but at least I got a free dyno out of it.

Funny part is there was a Dodge Viper in our group and this guy was drooling all over it. It made 4hp more to the wheels than the V. The dumbass owner bought headers for it a few months ago and never got a tune and wondered why he didn't see any better hp gains. And it made it sound like shit...at least to me. My buddy with a 06 GTO with a TVS 2300 on it sounded gorgeous. He ran out of fuel at 4800rpm and made 540rwhp...so once he gets his fuel issues worked out, he'll make even more hp that he can't keep control of. That damn thing has NO kind of traction.

Trapspeed
04-02-13, 11:23 PM
Sweet. Not a bad problem to have!

JimmyH
04-02-13, 11:35 PM
I know you guys are not going to be holding hands and singing kumbaya with the V-sport guys, but please at least be civil to the inevitable n00b that stumbles in here. kthx.

ClarkkentCTSV
04-03-13, 01:10 AM
I completely agree on the Vsport badge being a bad idea. Imagine walking into a ford dealer to buy a new Shelby GT500 and right next to it is the new Shelby edition V6 mustang. Cowl hood, big wheels, custom seats, but no real performance. It's going to kill the value of the GT500 and take away a lot of the exclusivity. Lets face it the majority of V owners are not out doing 180mph or track days. Part of why we pay a premium aside from performance is exclusivity. I don't want to pull up to a cars and coffee and be told to park next to the other V that just happens to be a non car guy parked in the handicap stall just getting coffee. Don't want to listen to a bunch of guys telling me how they took out a V at the track running 13's when I know what a V series car can really do. Call me vain, but keep the badge exclusive for Cadillacs flagship performance line not the Vsport 3.6.

RaVeNous
04-03-13, 01:14 AM
Car guys know the difference.

If a v "light" badge helps sales, and therefore the company makes money, that only means good things for future performance cars. Performance cars are not the bread and butter of car manufacturers.

Jinx
04-03-13, 01:50 AM
I completely agree on the Vsport badge being a bad idea. Imagine walking into a ford dealer to buy a new Shelby GT500 and right next to it is the new Shelby edition V6 mustang.

This is not what the Vsport is. The Vsport is a legitimate performance upgrade from the CTS.

Imagine walking into a Ford dealer to buy a new Shelby GT500 and right next to it is a naturally-aspirated Shelby American GT350 and a Mustang Boss 302.

Are these killing the value of the GT500 and take away a lot of the exclusivity?
Does the S5 kill the value and take away a lot of the exclusivity of the RS5?

Don't bother to answer, because it doesn't matter.
Have you noticed that numerous manufacturers use this approach? Are they all dumber than you? Or do they maybe know a thing or two about selling automobiles and making lots of customers happy?


Part of why we pay a premium aside from performance is exclusivity. I have really bad news for you. That CTS-V you bought? You didn't buy any exclusivity, you bought performance. if there was exclusivity, quantities would be limited and it would cost thousands more without an ounce more performance and it would be German. And they'd STILL sell most of the trimmings on lesser cars. D'oh.

You want a badge that won't be put on a lesser car? Get a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini. No, wait, Ferrari sells the California and the Lamborghini V10 (shared with a mere Audi for crying out loud!) brought out the butthurt in the real Lambo owners... for a while. Porsche 911 Turbo? No, every generation's Turbo styling cues get handed down to lesser models over time. Seriously, come up with an example of a brand that's kept to a level of purity that you're demanding.

And then go buy it. If you can afford it.


I don't want to pull up to a cars and coffee and be told to park next to the other V that just happens to be a non car guy parked in the handicap stall just getting coffee.

So you want a car that only cool people buy. No such thing.

.Jinx

ClarkkentCTSV
04-03-13, 02:41 AM
Well thank you for completely bashing my opinion on how I feel. You also forgot
call me vain, but I guess the cool people comment comes comes enough. Many major car manufactures have made costly mistakes and for some have completely destroyed a car model by just making small changes to its design. I aleady went to the bathroom so can't participate in this pissing contest with you and win. My main point is Cadillac car go in many directions for the new CTS. CTS-T, CTTS, T-sport, turbo edition. Just to naname a few let them start building 370z with the GTR Badging. I just don't like it. Maybe Cadillac will knock it out of the park with its new idea. Personally I don't like it. Reminds when I owned a terminator and kids would go Around with there body kit and cobra emblems and called it a cobra.

IBMike
04-03-13, 02:58 AM
I'm just a dumbass n00b who doesn't even have a V yet, so I'm sure I'll take some grief, but I gave up crying myself to sleep because people said mean things about me on the internetz long ago. Most people looking for THE V aren't going to be confused (and if they are, the price should clear up that confusion). Those who don't know any better, as owners or competitors will figure it out pretty quickly In the end, Caddy pays folks a lot of money to figure out how they can make MORE money; sometimes they hit a homerun and sometimes they strike out. Only time will tell where in the range of possibilities the Vseries will fall, but all GM cares about it how to sell more cars and if offering one more trim level will get them a few more customers that may have gone somewhere else, they're gonna go for it. They know those looking to spend the money for a "real" V know how much bang for the buck it offers, so they're not going to loose anyone over this.

Jinx
04-03-13, 03:18 AM
Notice that Cadillac never put the CTS-V grille on lesser CTS's.

Notice that the 2014 CTS Vsport doesn't have a mesh grille.

Complaining about the similarity of the little badge on the back almost seems greedy.

hulksdaddy
04-03-13, 09:10 AM
I don't like the similarity of the VSport badge to the V badge. Bait and switch tactic IMO.

dqw1
04-03-13, 10:43 AM
I can't wait for someone to buy the VSport and actually thinks he has a V until he gets schooled. They will be on this site soon. This is gonna get good.

ClarkkentCTSV
04-03-13, 11:20 AM
Notice that Cadillac never put the CTS-V grille on lesser CTS's.

Notice that the 2014 CTS Vsport doesn't have a mesh grille.

Complaining about the similarity of the little badge on the back almost seems greedy.

I guess placing a cobra emblem on a v6 is alright then

Kluch
04-03-13, 12:24 PM
I can't wait for someone to buy the VSport and actually thinks he has a V until he gets schooled. They will be on this site soon. This is gonna get good.

Idk. 420 horses on a lighter car going 0-60 in 4.6 seconds? Not many other cars taking her to "school."

Jinx
04-03-13, 01:09 PM
I guess placing a cobra emblem on a v6 is alright then

This is not what the Vsport is. The Vsport is a legitimate performance upgrade from the CTS.

Don't make me get out the big font.

The entire auto industry engages in the practice of leveraging their brands. (Google 2012 Shelby GTS.) You don't have to like it, but if you want to play the betrayal card like a Coup-fourre, consider: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

.Jinx

1997BlackETC
04-03-13, 01:23 PM
I don't really see what the big deal is with the Vsport, most people would know once the car is out it's a different car than the V, of course you will get people who get them bragging and telling people it is the advanced replacement for the V, but who cares, they will make asses out of themselves.

Xaqtly
04-03-13, 01:50 PM
I know you guys are not going to be holding hands and singing kumbaya with the V-sport guys, but please at least be civil to the inevitable n00b that stumbles in here. kthx.

I hope it's not going to be like that, I love the idea of the Vsport. Reduced weight, MRC, Brembos, and 420 HP? That thing is gonna be awesome to drive. The only thing I have a problem with is the inevitable confusion based on how GM decided to brand it with essentially the same CTS and V badges that the CTS-V has. It's not the car's fault, and I imagine it's going to be just as much of a driving enthusiast's car as the V is, just on a slightly smaller scale. I just think GM borked the badging and naming.

Zhariak
04-03-13, 02:03 PM
I hope it's not going to be like that, I love the idea of the Vsport. Reduced weight, MRC, Brembos, and 420 HP? That thing is gonna be awesome to drive. The only thing I have a problem with is the inevitable confusion based on how GM decided to brand it with essentially the same CTS and V badges that the CTS-V has. It's not the car's fault, and I imagine it's going to be just as much of a driving enthusiast's car as the V is, just on a slightly smaller scale. I just think GM borked the badging and naming.

And this is going to be the big problem...

Right now you drive a V and it's easily distinguishable. There's no confusing it. Once the V-Sport is released, it will dilute the idea of the general population as to what a Cadillac V is. I can just see it now, me driving around in my 13 V Coupe, and people thinking that because of my age, it's probably just one of those "V-Sport"s that no one has seen but have actually heard about.

Often right now, I have people come up to me and say "Is that a CTS-V?", simply because they don't know... I've also had people come up and say "That's a slick ride, but have you heard about the one with 560hp?", I answer, "yes, this is that one your talking about".

Adding the V-Sport it'll just cause confusion. They should have called the new V-Sport, the Z-Sport or something....

RippyPartsDept
04-03-13, 02:10 PM
I don't like the similarity of the VSport badge to the V badge. Bait and switch tactic IMO.

The whole point of the Vsport is to extend the Vseries branding down a notch to allow a stepping stone between the regular CTS and the V
Vsport expands the brand
if they didn't make the badge similar then the brand imaging wouldn't be cohesive

i understand it's your opinion that it's a bait-and-switch tactic, but isn't all marketing? (kinda?)

it's my opinion that the badge is different enough that anyone who's actually paying attention will know the difference
plus the grille, bumper and hood are going to be different on the Vseries which makes it look way different than the Vsport

----------


Once the V-Sport is released, it will dilute the idea of the general population as to what a Cadillac V is. I can just see it now, me driving around in my 13 V Coupe, and people thinking that because of my age, it's probably just one of those "V-Sport"s that no one has seen but have actually heard about.

first, the general population has no idea what the Vseries is ... the Vsport is actually going to help expand the V brand into the general population consciousness

second, if you're worried what someone else (who apparently doesn't a thing about cars) thinks about your car that's your problem ... not Cadillac's

Xaqtly
04-03-13, 02:22 PM
[b]Imagine walking into a Ford dealer to buy a new Shelby GT500 and right next to it is a naturally-aspirated Shelby American GT350 and a Mustang Boss 302.

Nope, you missed the point and made a bad comparison. Here's a more accurate picture based on your example:

Imagine walking into a Ford dealer where they have a GT500, and then right next to it is a GT-500, which is a GT with a supercharger that's not the same thing as a GT500, but looks almost exactly like one, and here's the part you missed: the badge on the back of the GT-500 actually says GT500, just like the GT500 does. In fact it's the same badge.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at these pictures.

http://www.cadillac.com/content/dam/Cadillac/Global/master/nscwebsite/en/home/Vehicles/Future_Vehicles/CTS/Model%20Overview/01_images/2014-cts-future-vehicle-page-overview-car-960x634.jpg

http://media.caranddriver.com/images/13q1/509267/2014-cadillac-cts-vsport-photo-509967-s-986x603.jpg

See the badges? Despite the fact they they called the car a Vsport, they're using the same badges, in the same relative location, as the CTS-V. THAT is where the model confusion is going to come from. I'm aware that the V badge isn't *exactly* the same as the CTS-V badge, but it's similar enough that even in relatively close up pictures of the badge it's still hard to see the difference.

The point is that if they're calling the car a Vsport, the badge should say Vsport rather than trying to make it look exactly like the CTS-V badging, which is going to cause confusion. I believe that the car is good enough to stand on its own without the V badging. This just feels like GM doesn't have a lot of faith in this car, as they're trying to leech off the rep the CTS-V built up rather than letting the car stand on its own. In fact calling it a Vsport is almost doing it a disservice because it brings to mind the BMW M sport models which are more about looks and/or options than actual performance, where the Vsport is all about performance.

That's why the Boss 302 is called the Boss 302, and not a GT Sport or a GT302. That's why the Z28 isn't a ZL1 Sport. I think GM really got it wrong on this one. Not the car, the car is great. I think they got the naming/badging wrong.

Smokin80
04-03-13, 02:34 PM
I think it's cool. Whatever they call it.

Now......I have dreams of a cts4 vsport...... Awd 420 hp car that would compete directly with audi? That would be unreal. I would own the v and an awd v if they built it!

Cheers

----------

Fwiw however, I don't really like the styling of the new cts...

RippyPartsDept
04-03-13, 02:44 PM
not the same badges... Vseries badge is large and has more colors

http://stwot.motortrend.com/files/2010/01/27770326.jpeg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/quangty/2014-cadillac-cts_100423108_l_zpsfe8df722.jpg

If you can't tell the difference between those two badges then there's something wrong with your eyesight

it is very clear to me that those are different ... yes similar but not "exactly the same"

plus the Vseries car will look different with different hood, grille, bumper, wheels, etc

the Vsport is a true performance package and not utilizing the brand recognition that has been built by the Vseries would wrong

hulksdaddy
04-03-13, 02:44 PM
Not a huge fan of the car's looks, and the TT V6 is an unknown, but my problem is not with the car.

Badge. Is. Lame.

Xaqtly
04-03-13, 03:08 PM
If you can't tell the difference between those two badges then there's something wrong with your eyesight


I'm aware that the V badge isn't *exactly* the same as the CTS-V badge

Please read before replying next time, thanks.

baabootoo
04-03-13, 03:21 PM
Is this the new V that will have the 5.3 twin-turbo engine?

hulksdaddy
04-03-13, 03:22 PM
Is this the new V that will have the 5.3 twin-turbo engine?

No, this is the V with the 2.0 Turbo. :D

Jinx
04-03-13, 03:23 PM
Nope, you missed the point and made a bad comparison. Here's a more accurate picture based on your example:

Imagine walking into a Ford dealer where they have a GT500, and then right next to it is a GT-500, which is a GT with a supercharger that's not the same thing as a GT500, but looks almost exactly like one, and here's the part you missed: the badge on the back of the GT-500 actually says GT500, just like the GT500 does. In fact it's the same badge.

You got that backwards. I got the point, and amazingly you both missed it and made it for me.


I'm aware that the V badge isn't *exactly* the same as the CTS-V badge, but it's similar enough that even in relatively close up pictures of the badge it's still hard to see the difference.

Disproved your own point and made mine. Also, see an optometrist.

Also, read a book about branding. Your every comment suggesting Cadillac is screwing up by making the butt badge similar demonstrates your ignorance of the subject.

BTW, the Boss 302 isn't called the GT Sport or GT302 because Boss 302 has established brand value. Ditto the Z/28. They didn't just make up those names last year.

.Jinx

1997BlackETC
04-03-13, 03:46 PM
All in all to me it sounds like the V might be a thing of the past come 12 more days. The top of the line performer will more than likely be the ATS-V with the same TT Motor they are going to put in the new CTS Vsport maybe with a little more boost or something to make it closer to 500 HP plus with the lighter weight and maybe AWD it will be faster than our current V's. Thats my theory and I'm sticking to it:)

Xaqtly
04-03-13, 03:50 PM
You got that backwards. I got the point, and amazingly you both missed it and made it for me.

Right, we're going to just take your word for that then.


Disproved your own point and made mine. Also, see an optometrist.

And again we're just going to take your word for that I guess. By telling me I have bad eyesight, you're saying the badges or the placement are not similar at all to the CTS-V's badges. Is that the point you're trying to make? Because anybody capable of looking at pictures will tell you that the Vsport's badges look remarkably similar to the CTS-V's badges. The CTS part is, in fact, exactly the same and it's in the same location. The V is very slightly different, but it's in the same location, it's the same size, uses the same font and is pretty much only missing the flag part.

And you're going to tell me that is in no way similar at all to the CTS-V's badging? Really? Are you sure I'm the one that needs to see an optometrist?


Also, read a book about branding. Your every comment suggesting Cadillac is screwing up by making the butt badge similar demonstrates your ignorance of the subject.

Just because words are coming out of your mouth doesn't make them true. Explain it to me in detail, then we'll talk. Oh and use facts, not opinions. You'd think you would have learned to do that by now rather than being vague.

JimmyH
04-03-13, 04:17 PM
I have to agree that, while the two badges are not the same, they are not different enough. Many folks are going to confuse the two. The amount of informed car enthusiasts who buy cars aren't even a fraction of the uninformed consumers who buy cars. And with a few exceptions, dealer salesmen are not going to make it any easier for them.

I also agree that V-sport is watering down the "V" name. Not that I planned on buying another V (too expensive for me) but V-sport makes me want one even less.

Yes, all the brands are doing it. F-sport, M-sport etc. They leverage the brand to the consumers at the expense of the enthusiast. That doesn't mean it's right. Especially when the enthusiast, not the consumer, is the one who talks up the brand, both on the internet and in the media.

austin
04-03-13, 04:27 PM
I'm also not a big fan of the 2014 V-Sport looks vs my 2011 CTS-V Coupe..... But I bet it will be a fun car and with a few mods even more fun... Something to grab the M3 crowd.

When the real 2014 "V" Coupe shows up... Hopefully it will be a V8 monster to take on the GTR and new M5... And also have the iconic hood and front grille we have all grown to love. :)

V2 BRAWN
04-03-13, 04:36 PM
Let's look at this very simplistically. The average person is going to look at this picture and identify it as a Cadillac CTS V. How are they going to differentiate a CTS-V from a CTS V? There's nothing on there that says Sport or that it's not a V series.
http://media.caranddriver.com/images/13q1/509267/2014-cadillac-cts-vsport-photo-509967-s-986x603.jpg

tinman
04-03-13, 04:51 PM
With a quick look at the above picture, which is what most people will see while driving...it looks like every V on the road today. I don't have a dog in this hunt, so don't get on me, but I am not happy with the logo at all. Hell, I don't even have a V, just a garden variety CTS, but I don't like the logo. Too similar. I do like the "in between" performance offering. I bet in a lighter ATS this would be quite a ride.

RippyPartsDept
04-03-13, 05:21 PM
that's not the same thing as a GT500, but looks almost exactly like one, and here's the part you missed: the badge on the back of the GT-500 actually says GT500, just like the GT500 does. In fact it's the same badge.


See the badges? Despite the fact they they called the car a Vsport, they're using the same badges, in the same relative location, as the CTS-V. THAT is where the model confusion is going to come from. I'm aware that the V badge isn't *exactly* the same as the CTS-V badge, but it's similar enough that even in relatively close up pictures of the badge it's still hard to see the difference.

The point is that if they're calling the car a Vsport, the badge should say Vsport rather than trying to make it look exactly like the CTS-V badging, which is going to cause confusion. I believe that the car is good enough to stand on its own without the V badging. This just feels like GM doesn't have a lot of faith in this car, as they're trying to leech off the rep the CTS-V built up rather than letting the car stand on its own. In fact calling it a Vsport is almost doing it a disservice because it brings to mind the BMW M sport models which are more about looks and/or options than actual performance, where the Vsport is all about performance.

I was reading what you wrote ... for someone who knows that the emblems aren't the same you seem concerned about how similar they are.
and you don't like that (for whatever reason)

that's fine - you're allowed to have opinions
i'm just trying to help you see the forest for the trees

the similarity is the point

by expanding the V brand and adding the Vsport we now have a similar vehicle that serves like a baby-V
why not use similar naming and badging? the message that is being conveyed is that this car is similar to the Vseries
this car aspires to be the Vseries
this car deserves to have a V on the trunk lid
it won't have the same grille, bumper, hood, wheels, or engine ... but one little almost the same badge on the trunk is going to confuse people?
i don't think so

if it confuses some people that is their fault for being confused - GM/Cadillac have been very clear that this is not the CTS-V and that it is basically the car for those who want more performance but aren't looking to take it to the max

....

i get your point about the Msport being more about making a non-M look like an M without actually adding anything to make it perform like and M
that is going to be where Cadillac differentiates themselves from BMW
Cadillac means business ... they're not about image in the sense that the Msport package is about looking like an M
the Vsport is all about performance and looks just the same as the regular CTS (besides the Vsport badge)
if you want a car that looks like a Vseries you'll have to buy a Vseries
or do the bumper/hood swap that a bunch of people have done
(which i bet will become harder or impossible in the 3rd Gen)

...

The bottom line is that all of you who are concerned with the Vsport branding and how other people are going to confuse it with your Vseries or how the Vsport waters down the V branding and all of this nonsense just need to relax and worry less about what other people will think.

You know what you have, and if other people don't' know or don't appreciate it because they're ignorant that is not your problem or concern - or at least, it shouldn't be.

....

i will play my own devil's advocate and say that if the Vsport actually ends up hurting the brand and sales suffer then maybe y'all have a point
that's the only way that this Vsport branding thing goes sour
but if sales are good and profits are up then the Vsport branding will look genius in a few years

JimmyH
04-03-13, 06:10 PM
It's not going to hurt sales. It will help them. But from a V-enthusiast's point of view, that doesn't help me, or make me feel good.

But, I am probably in a very small minority that liked Cadillac before it became so successful. I really, really liked my niche-car first gen CTS. Now that Cadillac has become a mainstream luxury contender, that is quite competitive with BMW and Mercedes, I have lost interest in Cadillac for the same reasons I never had interest in BMW or MB.

pat2t2f
04-03-13, 06:12 PM
If its a "Vsport", why can't the badge say "Vsport?" It still has the V monicker but shows a distinct difference. I agree with a vehicle in between the CTS and CTSV.

JimmyH
04-03-13, 06:25 PM
There is an almost carbon copy of this thread going on over in the 2014 CTS forum.

I am starting to think GM has finally come to the conclusion that they can no longer compete in the luxury segment with pushrod engines. I think they still do a wonderful job with them, but if they are looking to grab more and more BMW and MB buyers (who view, with great derision, pushrod engines as dinosaurs) they need to have multi-overhead cam engines.

It's looking more and more like the ATS-V is going to have this same TT3.6. So I am starting to wonder if the 3rd gen CTS-V will still carry on with a SC'd ohv V8. GM has managed to keep secrets before. I wonder if they have an entirely new engine stashed away somewhere. Does GM have a skunkworks operation anywhere?

RippyPartsDept
04-03-13, 06:34 PM
It's not going to hurt sales. It will help them. But from a V-enthusiast's point of view, that doesn't help me, or make me feel good.

But, I am probably in a very small minority that liked Cadillac before it became so successful. I really, really liked my niche-car first gen CTS. Now that Cadillac has become a mainstream luxury contender, that is quite competitive with BMW and Mercedes, I have lost interest in Cadillac for the same reasons I never had interest in BMW or MB.

sounds like the 'sell-out complex' that people get when their favorite band gets popular and the old fans feel like the new fans don't deserve to bask in the success because they weren't there from the beginning

----------


GM has managed to keep secrets before. I wonder if they have an entirely new engine stashed away somewhere. Does GM have a skunkworks operation anywhere?

i think they do ... but of course if we knew about it then it wouldn't be that good at it's main job of being stealthy

JFJr
04-03-13, 06:45 PM
I guess marketing hype is more effective with German car buyers and doesn't speak well for their car knowledge. How can a more compact, less complex, lighter (same cylinder count) and highly efficient push rod engine be considered a dinosaur? Maybe those same buyers need a history lesson to find out how long 4 valves per cylinder, turbocharging and supercharging have been used in auto and/or aircraft internal combustion engines.

Jud

1997BlackETC
04-03-13, 11:02 PM
Yep, nothing wrong with a pushrod engine, infact I'd much rather have that than a DOHC motor like the Northstar was, less to go wrong, more low end torque, I had a Northstar, and ya, it was a great motor, but not very much torque down at the lower RPMS.

I actually am little surprised that Caddy did not write the word "sport" next to V logo. This would then make perfectly clear that this car is different than the V. All in all though it does not bother me either way, infact the way I think it may be a good thing for us V owners because our V's are much more mighty than the Vsport and it might make our V's hold their value better, especially if they never do make the Supercharged 556 hp motor ever again after this model year.

On another note, I had some guy at the gas pumps drooling over my car today, he asked if he could please see the motor, I popped open the hood and showed it to him. He said, "wow that would make a great motor for my boat" All the way back home from the gas station I was looking in my rear view making sure he was not tailing me, thoughts of the movie Hit and Run came to me and was nervous he might follow me back home and swipe my motor, lol. I took a couple of extra turns going back home just to be safe.

RaVeNous
04-03-13, 11:26 PM
Considering the power/mpg of late model GM LSx and Chrysler Hemi 6.1/6.4, I'd say the pushrods work just fine. I still think Americans make the best motors!

Kluch
04-04-13, 12:00 AM
Who cares whether the average joe on the street will know whether you have a V or a V-sport? A fellow enthusiast will know and more importantly YOU will know. I drive a V because I like it and I think it is cool. I care to impress no one.

Look at the Camaro now. I am a huge fan of that car and i know the difference between the V6, RS, SS, ZL1, and now the Z/28. Do you think the average joe can tell one from the other? No way! But I guarantee most auto enthusiasts can. And that is the way it should be.

Good for cadillac to expand the V brand. The badges are different enough for me. But I wouldn't care even if they were exactly the same.

Jinx
04-04-13, 04:52 AM
Right, we're going to just take your word for that then.
No, you're going to apply reading comprehension to the posts I've already made and connect the dots. Well, you aren't, but I bet others did.


And you're going to tell me that is in no way similar at all to the CTS-V's badging?
No. You've again failed to comprehend what you've read. Why do you think I provided examples of badge similarities within a model line? Think it through.

The badges are similar, but not the same. That's the point. Here's how you flubbed it. You scoffed at an example of similar (but not identical) branding as if it didn't apply to this discussion, made a chest-puffing deal of badges that were exactly the same, and then acknowledged that Cadillac has two badges that are similar but not the same. FAIL. All you have left is quibbling over the degree of difference between the badges, while fully acknowleding that you can see the difference.

Cadillac has made the Vsport badge similar to the CTS-V badge on purpose. Gosh, it's really close. Gosh, if all you get is the rear view of a car from fifty yards away, you're wondering whether you saw a Vsport or a V. Explain in detail how this is bad. Don't be vague.

.Jinx

hulksdaddy
04-04-13, 06:19 AM
Cadillac has made the Vsport badge similar to the CTS-V badge on purpose. Gosh, it's really close. Gosh, if all you get is the rear view of a car from fifty yards away, you're wondering whether you saw a Vsport or a V. Explain in detail how this is bad. Don't be vague.

.Jinx

I'll take this one.

I spent my money on an expensive, badass, 550+ hp, CTS-V, and I keep getting asked how I like my VSport. Takes time out on my day having to explain I don't have a lame VSport, I have the King of the Hill V, and now my sense of superiority over having a V has been shattered, leading to more therapy and having to find other outside means of finding my self worth.

Damn you Cadillac! :want:

tinman
04-04-13, 09:49 AM
I actually am little surprised that Caddy did not write the word "sport" next to V logo. This would then make perfectly clear that this car is different than the V. All in all though it does not bother me either way, infact the way I think it may be a good thing for us V owners because our V's are much more mighty than the Vsport and it might make our V's hold their value better, especially if they never do make the Supercharged 556 hp motor ever again after this model year.

I completely agree

On another note, I had some guy at the gas pumps drooling over my car today, he asked if he could please see the motor, I popped open the hood and showed it to him. He said, "wow that would make a great motor for my boat" All the way back home from the gas station I was looking in my rear view making sure he was not tailing me, thoughts of the movie Hit and Run came to me and was nervous he might follow me back home and swipe my motor, lol. I took a couple of extra turns going back home just to be safe.

I just spent $20000 on rebuilding my pushrod engine for my boat - a classic mahogany hulled 17' Century Resorter with a 352 Ford FE engine. Damn, I coulda had your 556 hp mill instead for lots less. lol!

Paul

thebigjimsho
04-04-13, 10:26 AM
With a Vsport you can get within 50 yards. With a V, you can't. See, no problems!

tinman
04-04-13, 10:38 AM
There isn't even a real V offered in the new Gen 3. Why are we getting bent out of shape?

thebigjimsho
04-04-13, 10:46 AM
There isn't even a real V offered in the new Gen 3. Why are we getting bent out of shape?

There isn't even a Gen 3.

garfin
04-04-13, 10:51 AM
Does GM have a skunkworks operation anywhere?

Heh, heh... have you read All Corvettes are Red by James Schefter?




On another note, I had some guy at the gas pumps drooling over my car today, he asked if he could please see the motor, I popped open the hood and showed it to him. He said, "wow that would make a great motor for my boat" All the way back home from the gas station I was looking in my rear view making sure he was not tailing me, thoughts of the movie Hit and Run came to me and was nervous he might follow me back home and swipe my motor, lol. I took a couple of extra turns going back home just to be safe.

Save the guy a whole bunch of angst. Go back there and show him this:
http://www.outlaweagle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2352

Best regards,

Elie

Xaqtly
04-04-13, 01:48 PM
No, you're going to apply reading comprehension to the posts I've already made and connect the dots.

So even after a direct request for you to be more specific, you're still not going to be? Well now you know why I can't take you seriously.


The badges are similar, but not the same. That's the point. Here's how you flubbed it. You scoffed at an example of similar (but not identical) branding as if it didn't apply to this discussion, made a chest-puffing deal of badges that were exactly the same, and then acknowledged that Cadillac has two badges that are similar but not the same. FAIL.

And this is how I know you're not paying attention. My example used a GT500, and a fictional GT-500. You obviously missed the difference there, so let me point it out for you - it's the hyphen. See it? See it right there in the GT-500? That's right, the only difference in badging in my example was the hyphen.

The only difference badging on the CTS Vsport compared to the CTS-V is the slight extension to the right of the "V" with the flag. It is an absolutely minuscule difference. And frankly I'm not surprised that you haven't yet figured out that if you read the badges on the Vsport from left to right it very literally says "CTS V". Yes, LITERALLY. Are you still going to try to argue that the badging is so dissimilar that nobody will ever get them confused? And that anybody who does has eyesight problems?

Really?

The point I was making has already been reiterated by a bunch of other people in this thread, you seem to be the only person who still doesn't get it. They're making the Vsport look almost exactly like a CTS-V in terms of badging. It would be like having two versions of the Escalade, but one of them has smaller wheels and a smaller engine, and GM calls it an Escaladé, which is pronounced differently. Rather than trying to fool people into thinking it's a CTS-V, why didn't GM just makes the badge say Vsport? That would have solved this problem.

The problem is not the car. I think the car is great, with what I know about it so far. The problem is with GM trying to make people think it's a CTS-V. You want to leverage the V brand, then call it by its name, the Vsport. That way nobody could possibly confuse it with the CTS-V and it still has the V branding. They could even use the red-striped V badge that they're using in those pics, just put the word "sport" after it. If they don't change that, then they will have a car that is not a CTS-V but that literally says "CTS V" on the back.

Jinx
04-04-13, 01:52 PM
I spent my money on an expensive, badass, 550+ hp, CTS-V, and I keep getting asked how I like my VSport. Takes time out on my day having to explain I don't have a lame VSport, I have the King of the Hill V, and now my sense of superiority over having a V has been shattered, leading to more therapy and having to find other outside means of finding my self worth.

Damn you Cadillac! :want:

This is a specious complaint, because the CTS-V is the one with brand recognition. But if you honestly start to get asked if your second-gen CTS-V is a third-gen CTS Vsport, you're talking to someone whose ignorance isn't going to be fixed by a less-similar badge. And is it really such a heartbreak to tell someone who's taken an interest in your car that it's actually not the cool Cadillac but the really cool Cadillac? If so, maybe you should get an explanatory license plate frame or a vanity plate to help stave off such public humiliations. And if you're worrying about a situation two years hence with your imaginary third-gen CTS-V, maybe you should wait to see how it's differentiated before complaining about its lack of differentiation.

But I must apologize for not being quite explicit enough: explain in detail how it's bad for Cadillac.

.Jinx

hulksdaddy
04-04-13, 02:26 PM
This is a specious complaint, because the CTS-V is the one with brand recognition. But if you honestly start to get asked if your second-gen CTS-V is a third-gen CTS Vsport, you're talking to someone whose ignorance isn't going to be fixed by a less-similar badge. And is it really such a heartbreak to tell someone who's taken an interest in your car that it's actually not the cool Cadillac but the really cool Cadillac? If so, maybe you should get an explanatory license plate frame or a vanity plate to help stave off such public humiliations. And if you're worrying about a situation two years hence with your imaginary third-gen CTS-V, maybe you should wait to see how it's differentiated before complaining about its lack of differentiation.

But I must apologize for not being quite explicit enough: explain in detail how it's bad for Cadillac.

.Jinx

I commend you on your vocabulary. :thumbsup:

I was actually being a bit caustic.

However, it's bad for Cadillac if their customer base doesn't like it. That remains to be seen, and this forum is actually a very small sliver of said base, but it seems that overwhelmingly, posters here do not like it.

What the world at large thinks will be known later.

Jinx
04-04-13, 02:48 PM
So even after a direct request for you to be more specific, you're still not going to be? Well now you know why I can't take you seriously. And then you directly quoted where I was more specific. Again your reading comprehension has failed you. Try again.


And this is how I know you're not paying attention. My example used a GT500, and a fictional GT-500. You obviously missed the difference there, so let me point it out for you - it's the hyphen. See it? See it right there in the GT-500? That's right, the only difference in badging in my example was the hyphen.

And this is how we can all see why you're having such a hard time. You can't even read or remember what you wrote. Let me quote it for you:


Nope, you missed the point and made a bad comparison. Here's a more accurate picture based on your example:

Imagine walking into a Ford dealer where they have a GT500, and then right next to it is a GT-500, which is a GT with a supercharger that's not the same thing as a GT500, but looks almost exactly like one, and here's the part you missed: the badge on the back of the GT-500 actually says GT500, just like the GT500 does. In fact it's the same badge.

Emphasis added, because clearly you need it. You said the same badge. You made a bad comparison. You are not paying attention. You contradicted yourself. Or perhaps you're just being really sloppy and imprecise in attempting to ignore the overall picture and obsess over one precise detail. Any way you look at it, you are having a bad time.
But this is really just a MacGuffin anyway.


Are you still going to try to argue that the badging is so dissimilar that nobody will ever get them confused? And that anybody who does has eyesight problems?

No. That's your straw man, not my point. Or perhaps it's your honest attempt and failure to understand what I've written. If you can't tell the badges apart given a good look at and awareness of both, then yes you have eyesight problems. If you can't tell them apart at a distance, or if some ignorant people who don't really pay attention to Cadillac's marketing or press reviews of the car get them confused, Cadillac still wins because the V has positive connotations. This is the part that you don't get and haven't addressed. This is the halo effect in action.


The point I was making has already been reiterated by a bunch of other people in this thread, you seem to be the only person who still doesn't get it. Obviously not the only person, unless you've completely ignored our friendly neighborhood parts expert. Not a good idea IMHO.


They're making the Vsport look almost exactly like a CTS-V in terms of badging. It would be like having two versions of the Escalade, but one of them has smaller wheels and a smaller engine, and GM calls it an Escaladé, which is pronounced differently.

Nice bait and switch, but I'm on to you. You say "in terms of badging" in the first sentence and then expand it to an entire car in the next. Misdirection attempt rejected.

They're making one badge and one angle of the car look very similar to the previous generation CTS-V. They're calling the car by a different name, and they've not duplicated any of the other previous-generation CTS-V's identifying marks: V badges on the side, unique wheels, or unique front fascia and grilles. The press material clearly associates the Vsport with the CTS-V, but also clearly indicates that they are not the same thing.


Rather than trying to fool people into thinking it's a CTS-V, why didn't GM just makes the badge say Vsport? That would have solved this problem. Because it is not a problem. It is putting the halo effect to work.

Explain how a strong visual association between the Vsport and the CTS-V from the rear, even an inability to tell there's a difference at a quick glance, is bad for Cadillac.

.Jinx
Nobody has seen the next-generation CTS-V.

tinman
04-04-13, 02:57 PM
Jeezus, Gentlemen. Enough. :thehand:

SoCalCTSV
04-04-13, 03:03 PM
I don't give a shit. This is like when I owned a 99 Cobra. The 2000 V6s came out with the Cobra hood. Someone call the Waaaaaabulance.

Xaqtly
04-04-13, 03:15 PM
Jinx, clearly you are unwilling or unable to understand what I'm telling you, even though plenty of other people here are having no problems understanding and reiterating it. This is your problem, not mine. Like the escalade example which you called a "bait and switch" - two Escalades in different trim levels with almost completely similar but not exactly similar badging. Two CTSes in different trim levels with almost completely similar but not exactly similar badging. The fact that you can't even understand that simple example is telling.

So rather than have you misunderstand and/or misinterpret another round of posts, I'm just going to point out that you are still claiming that people with normal eyesight will never get these two cars confused, and that's hilariously wrong. It literally - LITERALLY - spells out CTS V - using the same typeface, font, size, spacing, kerning, placement and logos with the exception of the slightly different V - on the back of the car. If you've decided to ignore that fact, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise, will it?

Jinx
04-04-13, 03:51 PM
I was actually being a bit caustic. I thought you might be, but you understand I had to be safe and take it at face value. No offense intended.


However, it's bad for Cadillac if their customer base doesn't like it. That remains to be seen, and this forum is actually a very small sliver of said base, but it seems that overwhelmingly, posters here do not like it.

What the world at large thinks will be known later.

This is a good point, and it deserves further comment. It's not necessarily bad for Cadillac if the old customer base doesn't like it, because the move may get them new sales that make up for losses.

A bunch of CTS-V fans aren't happy, but they're a small contingent of the luxury car buying market. The Z06-GrandSport is actually a good example. Sure, GM riled up Z06 owners when they "whored out" its wide fender look, and maybe they lost a few, past and future. But very quickly half of base Corvette sales became GrandSport sales. For those who don't know, that's a $5K bump in starting price.

There's another example -- remember the Bangle butt? BMW turned the clean BMW 7-series into a monstrosity. Propellerheads everywhere were outraged. And it wasn't just styling, the car was big and fat and soft... and iDriven. But the new car sold well and brought new buyers to the brand. Risk, but rewarded. Was it just a short-term gain that damaged the brand long-term? Well, not so far. BMW is constantly under pressure for drifting from its image and perceived mission... but they keep building cars that get damned good reviews and selling them in good numbers. The company seems pretty healthy, doesn't it? So it's possible to make fans angry and trigger widespread worry and predictions of doom and still come out well-regarded and financially successful.

Which is good news for GM, because have you seen the new Stingray? ;)

Brands like CTS-V are tricky. Buyers can be making a huge emotional investment in them. It's fair to say that the car a person owns reflects upon him, and what a person buys is often influenced, sometimes a great deal, by how he thinks that car will affect his image. (Sometimes to an unhealthy degree.) And man, it really sucks when people make fun of my Nickelback t-shirt... So any perceived shift in the meaning (or value) of the brand is a big deal. So I get why people see that little red-striped V and don't like it. But Cadillac needs to sell cars and build a brand, not just foster a really cool little car cult. Buy the car at the tip of the sword, be prepared to be used to further the cause. Can you really blame people for wanting to be a little more like you, and blame Cadillac for facilitating that? :)

And let's be honest, CTS-V fans are about as passionate as car buyers get... but if the new CTS-V shows up and kicks butt, it'll be really hard to stay mad.

.Jinx
You know you want it

----------


So rather than have you misunderstand and/or misinterpret another round of posts, I'm just going to point out that you are still claiming that people with normal eyesight will never get these two cars confused, and that's hilariously wrong.

No, it was hilariously wrong the first time you tried shoving those words in my mouth. Now it's offensive. Stop lying.

RippyPartsDept
04-04-13, 06:24 PM
anyone remember when the V-badge was on the left and the CTS on the right?

http://www.roadfly.com/new-cars/wp-content/uploads/gallery/2009-cadillac-cts-v-first-drive/2009-cts-v-trunk.jpg

and Jinx, i 'liked' your last post for the nickelback reference ... perfect analogy ... well the rest of your post was really good too

...

this whole dust-up over badging and branding is just so silly
the wheels are in motion and there's nothing we can do about it
(except complain, i guess)

i, for one, can't wait to start getting some 2015 CTS-V spy shots and info leaked (and 2014 ATS-V too!)

Jinx
04-04-13, 06:31 PM
What the heck is a V-CTS? It LITERALLY says that on the back of the car, so it can't possibly be anything else.

Xaqtly
04-04-13, 07:10 PM
Right, which is the same thing as a car LITERALLY saying CTS V on the back and you claiming that nobody will ever confuse that for a CTS-V. Unless they need to see an optometrist, of course. Seriously, do you live in bizarro world? :cookoo:

Jinx
04-04-13, 07:32 PM
I was making fun of you, genius.


you claiming that nobody will ever confuse that for a CTS-V... Also, that is at least the third time that you have flat out lied and put those words in my mouth, immediately after being called on it. Something is seriously wrong with you. Seek treatment before your compulsive lying gets you in serious trouble.

hulksdaddy
04-04-13, 07:40 PM
Right,


I was

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r211/czargun24/love-connection-logo.jpg

:hide:

Trapspeed
04-04-13, 08:46 PM
anyone remember when the V-badge was on the left and the CTS on the right?


Sure do. I see it every day. :)

JFJr
04-04-13, 08:56 PM
Sure do. I see it every day. :)

I have one of those. I'm sure it's very confusing to those that watch these things.

Jud

neuronbob
04-04-13, 09:13 PM
I used to have one of those. Now I have one of those new-fangled Vs that has the V on the wrong side. What the hell?

vfaninva
04-04-13, 09:50 PM
That way on my '09.

thefox1
04-04-13, 09:52 PM
I'm mainly disappointed by the new design. Like I saw somewhere, it looks like it's made for the AARP generation.

Smokin80
04-04-13, 10:29 PM
I took all the badging off the car so now no one knows what I'm driving!!!!!! Oh no!!!!!

The only people that know what a cts v is know what it is without the badges so who cares.

JimmyH
04-04-13, 10:38 PM
This thread is getting as long as war and peace. If anyone actually read all of it, 10000 imaginary rep points.

Xaqtly
04-05-13, 03:26 PM
I was making fun of you, genius.

And I was being sarcastic in response. Did you not pick up on that? Should I type slower? :alchi:


Also, that is at least the third time that you have flat out lied and put those words in my mouth, immediately after being called on it. Something is seriously wrong with you. Seek treatment before your compulsive lying gets you in serious trouble.

Oh no, internet threats! Congratulations, you've proven you're smarter than me because as we all know, threatening people on the internet is the easiest way to prove you have a high IQ. :worship:

So by calling me a liar, you're saying you DO think people will be confused by seeing a car that LITERALLY says CTS V on the back when it's not a CTS-V? Because that's different from what you were saying earlier. Now you're going to have to explain it all over again. Do you or do you not believe that people will be confused by seeing CTS V on a car that is not a CTS-V? At which specific point would you say they would need an optometrist? Give me a number in yards. Let's call it the "O-factor", and it will take the mean visual acuity of the human populace into account. From there you can plug in a static number like 15 yards, and that will be the distance at which somebody would need an optometrist before they would be able to correctly identify this as a CTS Vsport instead of a CTS-V from the rear. I'll let you do the math on that one.

Jimmy, I'm going to put those 10000 rep points in the bank where they'll gain interest, and eventually I will become king of the internet, at which point I will also be able to threaten people when they disagree with me. Right now I'm only a squire of the internet, which doesn't count for much, and involves dealing with a lot of horse shit. But my day will come. Oh yes... my day will come. *steeples fingers*

Jinx
04-05-13, 03:58 PM
Yes, you are a liar. You've attributed words to me, multiple times, which I did not say and which do not agree with what I've said. Your straw man has been burned to ashes. You don't even know what that is, do you?

I didn't threaten you (again you can't understand what you've read), but I did point out that your behavior of repeatedly lying can have negative consequences in the real world. People lose their jobs and go to jail for some lies. They get sued and lose everything for others. Here on the internet it just makes you look like someone whose words can't be trusted and whose posts should be disregarded out of hand.

Now you're throwing up more questions because you cannot understand what you've read. The phrasing of your questions continues to try shoving words in my mouth and stand up straw men and fashion contradictions that exist only in your mind. You just can't stop lying, can you? I suppose it's difficult when you can't grasp the truth. Yes, retreat further into imagined details and split hairs, that's served you so well this far.

I apologize to other readers for the following, but Xaqtly (no irony in that moniker) seems unable to find earlier messages in this thread.


The badges are similar, but not the same. That's the point. Here's how you flubbed it. You scoffed at an example of similar (but not identical) branding as if it didn't apply to this discussion, made a chest-puffing deal of badges that were exactly the same, and then acknowledged that Cadillac has two badges that are similar but not the same. FAIL. All you have left is quibbling over the degree of difference between the badges, while fully acknowleding that you can see the difference.

Cadillac has made the Vsport badge similar to the CTS-V badge on purpose. Gosh, it's really close. Gosh, if all you get is the rear view of a car from fifty yards away, you're wondering whether you saw a Vsport or a V. Explain in detail how this is bad. Don't be vague.
(Italics changed to boldface in quoted material to retain emphasis.)

.Jinx

yaymitch
04-05-13, 04:29 PM
I like the new V-Sport. I think it's a great move for Cadillac especially since it's sales dropped 9% last year while most all of it's competitors sales went up. Yes, the new CTS is not as angled and makes less of a statement than the current models, but it will appeal to the folks buying Audi's, Merc's, Jags and BMW's. BMW has the 528i, 535i and the 550i and now Cadillac has three CTS models that compete directly with those cars, similar to the A6 line and the E-class line. Then the V will be released to of course compete with the M, S and AMG models. We all asked for years why we Americans couldn't build good quality performance cars to compete with the Germans, and now we are complaining when we make an effort to not only compete but steal market share. Stop whining and be more supportive!

This new model is a good way to gain market share. Let's hope the new ATS and CTS can help Cadillac improve sales otherwise there goes the V series cars altogether. Then what will we buy?

Trapspeed
04-05-13, 04:48 PM
And now up to seven pages of this crap. Let's go for the record.

RippyPartsDept
04-05-13, 05:00 PM
i'm still on page1 ... superior forum settings FTW

JFJr
04-05-13, 06:56 PM
Guys, calm down, the TTV6 in the standard CTS is a good thing. But it would be interesting if a couple of years from now, a non-car guy bought a real "V" thinking that he has a V Sport. Imagine the surprise when he floors it. Ha haa!

Jud

JimmyH
04-05-13, 08:06 PM
7 pages of crap isn't even close to a record. Sorry.

hulksdaddy
04-05-13, 09:00 PM
The year is still young...

JFJr
04-07-13, 09:35 PM
The TTV6 is the cat's as*. Let's imitate the Germans and pipe in LS7 noise to placate the old car guys like me and tinker with the mpg computer to make us believe that it is more efficient; and give us increased "inspections" to make us feel more European. It's only marketing, right?

Jud :lildevil:

repenttokyo
04-08-13, 02:31 PM
This bothers me mostly because they didn't even come CLOSE to matching the specs of the former V. If it had more HP, but was still a TT, it wouldn't bother me. I'm wondering if they're even making a true V for 2014... And 8-speed auto without even optioning a manual!? Are you kidding? Just using the "V" in its name is disgraceful to the breed. It's like when Pontiac decided to badge the G8 with "Firehawk." A nice product, yes... but it ruined the heritage that came with the badge. There's NO SUCH THING as a 4-door Firehawk.

they are definitely making a true V. I talked with Ed Welburn in New York after the unveiling, and he said that a V was coming, and that it would be full of features that the Vsport will not have. There's no need to think this is in any way replacing the CTS-V.

tinman
04-08-13, 02:46 PM
they are definitely making a true V. I talked with Ed Welburn in New York after the unveiling, and he said that a V was coming, and that it would be full of features that the Vsport will not have. There's no need to think this is in any way replacing the CTS-V.

Bring it on.

I wonder what the badge on the back of the that car will look like! :stirpot:

RaVeNous
04-08-13, 05:33 PM
I still think the v sport is worthy of the badge regardless of the confusion by car enthusiasts. The fact is on paper the v sport performance is really good. We take for granted how fast a sub 5 second 0-60 really is, and how most modern cars, regardless of size handle VERY well. The car isn't going to be THAT much slower than the current CTS-V. I'm not saying that a "real" v shouldn't be a priority, but the sport package does fill a need of performance without going to upper tier pricing and gas hogging supercars. Lots of companies do this with trim packages. GM needs to sell cars - they are still struggling financially. As I've said before if this trim sells cars, it's better in the long run for top tier performance models that are not the bread and butter of any major manufacturer. Why do you think v6 Camaros and Mustangs sell? The v6 models aren't even slow anymore.

tinman
04-08-13, 05:54 PM
I agree with all you stated except the comment that the car companies are struggling, which is a minor point.

MacBuster
04-08-13, 06:28 PM
In order to make the "Vsport" have any value to the brand...they NEED to leverage off of the main V. Furthermore they have to make the main V batsh!t crazy in order to confer that value onto the Vsport sub-brand.

In other words, this all translates in a guaranteed crazy genuine V model. Perhaps its will be even more outrageous as a result: they know they don't have to appeal at all to a marginal buyer, whom they can put into a Vsport. The Vsport sub brand makes a "magazine cover" halo car a worthwhile exercise for Cadillac - a more difficult point to make otherwise.

clevay
04-08-13, 09:20 PM
I had the opportunity to drive the all-wheel drive ATS 2.0L turbo when my V went in for service. I did not want to turn the ATS in when it was time pickup my V. This lightweight 276hp Caddy was that good. Quicker in and out of a turn, better handling & braking. It was nothing like my 10-sec V in a straight line however.

I think this 50/50 all-wheel chassis with 420hp/430tq will be Wicked at 3600 lbs. I also think this CTS Vsport might be faster than a stock V2 on a road course.

I see alot of similarities with this package to the GTR when it came out in 2007 with around 480hp/430 tq at 3900 lbs. We all thought that car was going to be a pig and it ran high 11's bone stock and ran circles around damn near everything on a road course.

repenttokyo
04-08-13, 09:28 PM
I've driven the 3.6 and the 2.0 ATS on the track, and I liked them, but they weren't the equivalent of my first-gen V from a performance standpoint on a road course. I am surprised that you felt that way about the ATS.

thebigjimsho
04-08-13, 09:55 PM
I've driven the 3.6 and the 2.0 ATS on the track, and I liked them, but they weren't the equivalent of my first-gen V from a performance standpoint on a road course. I am surprised that you felt that way about the ATS.

A tuned MTX 2.0 ATS would give a stock V1 a very tough time on a road course...

RoketRdr
04-08-13, 10:11 PM
i wish that they would not have even thought up this thing. The mere mention of v in a trim level cheapens that actual v experience and undoubtedly will cause a lot of confusion among the uneducated.

There is only one v and we will have to wait to see what it looks and acts like.

Of course, this is only my opinion. I am interested in what my brothers and sisters here have to say.

what he said!!!!

repenttokyo
04-08-13, 11:35 PM
A tuned MTX 2.0 ATS would give a stock V1 a very tough time on a road course...

I don't think it's fair to compare a tuned car to a stock car... And stock for stock, after pushing the 2.0 hard at Mosport, it's easier to drive than my V1, but it's not close to being as fast.

I actually liked the V6 with the autobox much more on the track. Powerband was sweeter.

Bonnell
04-09-13, 08:21 AM
This is similar to GM introducing the Corvette Grand Sport. It had the looks of a Z06 without the full performance. It sells very well.

RaVeNous
04-09-13, 12:14 PM
I still can't quite figure out why this is such a huge issue for people; although I have to admit there is a part of me that can understand a certain amount of irritation. One of the reason I wasn't completely happy with my 2012 SRT 300, was that it was being treated as an inbetween model. They released it, then within a year were already upgrading with launch control, better NAV, more SRT modes for the handling. On top of this they were already confirming a future 8 speed and ultra-supercharged special edition for some or all of the SRT models. Granted, I'm SURE these special editions are going to be expensive and more than I'm wiling to pay, but its just irritating that the model years are getting outdated as fast as an Apple iPad.

The 2009-2013 V Series CTS is going to be a permanent icon. It doesn't matter what comes after it. Because of the way it took the performance world by storm, and really put it to the Bohemian snobs ( I say this in jest) was stuff of legend. Every criticism I have read in the reviews is why I love the car. Every rough edge, the polarizing looks, the blend of raw power and civility with some fun shoved in is second to none. It is a "put the world in check" kind of car, just like the corvette continues to do. Without this car, M's and AMG's wouldn't be pushing the power out to get the sub 4 second 0-60 times. The best part is, GM does this in an platform that can still be wrenched on by anyone in their garage with some good mechanical background and tools. No way I'd mess with a $100,000 German supercar...sorry...they have enough issues on their own impressive as they may be.

As new models come out, no matter if its a Vsport or some "true" 'V' badged vehicle, its not going to diminish what the 2009-2013 car is. The Vsport is going to be a true performer anyway, even on paper it looks good. The new cadillac interiors continue to challenge the high end cars, and I would put my 2011 against any BMW or Benz. Anyone who says otherwise is just in blind denial.

The Vsport is only good things for GM assuming they sell. It won't do anything to diminish what the current V series will continue to be, nor will anything cadillac produces ever look like them in the future.

shchow
04-09-13, 01:01 PM
Growing up, half the fun was being able to differentiate each car from another.
All the enthusiasts are able to tell a M, AMG, RSx, ZR-1, Z06, Gransport, MC Stradiale, etc from their respective generic counterparts.
So I don't see an issue...

Chrispy
04-09-13, 01:47 PM
The 2009-2013 V Series CTS is going to be a permanent icon. It doesn't matter what comes after it. Because of the way it took the performance world by storm, and really put it to the Bohemian snobs ( I say this in jest) was stuff of legend. Every criticism I have read in the reviews is why I love the car. Every rough edge, the polarizing looks, the blend of raw power and civility with some fun shoved in is second to none. It is a "put the world in check" kind of car, just like the corvette continues to do. Without this car, M's and AMG's wouldn't be pushing the power out to get the sub 4 second 0-60 times. The best part is, GM does this in an platform that can still be wrenched on by anyone in their garage with some good mechanical background and tools. No way I'd mess with a $100,000 German supercar...sorry...they have enough issues on their own impressive as they may be.

As new models come out, no matter if its a Vsport or some "true" 'V' badged vehicle, its not going to diminish what the 2009-2013 car is. The Vsport is going to be a true performer anyway, even on paper it looks good. The new cadillac interiors continue to challenge the high end cars, and I would put my 2011 against any BMW or Benz. Anyone who says otherwise is just in blind denial.

The Vsport is only good things for GM assuming they sell. It won't do anything to diminish what the current V series will continue to be, nor will anything cadillac produces ever look like them in the future.

Very well written...the 09-13's are an iconic car and represent the General handing it to the Germans. Personally I'd prefer the badge to actually say what the car is (VSport) but regardless I think Cadillac has plans for the "real" V that are going to be truly insane.

baabootoo
04-09-13, 02:20 PM
I had the opportunity to drive the all-wheel drive ATS 2.0L turbo when my V went in for service. I did not want to turn the ATS in when it was time pickup my V. This lightweight 276hp Caddy was that good. Quicker in and out of a turn, better handling & braking. It was nothing like my 10-sec V in a straight line however.

I think this 50/50 all-wheel chassis with 420hp/430tq will be Wicked at 3600 lbs. I also think this CTS Vsport might be faster than a stock V2 on a road course.

I see alot of similarities with this package to the GTR when it came out in 2007 with around 480hp/430 tq at 3900 lbs. We all thought that car was going to be a pig and it ran high 11's bone stock and ran circles around damn near everything on a road course.

Yes, exactly. Less weight is always good......along with better mileage. If I see one on the track with the plate, "REAL V KLR", I'm jettin'!

thebigjimsho
04-09-13, 03:14 PM
I don't think it's fair to compare a tuned car to a stock car... And stock for stock, after pushing the 2.0 hard at Mosport, it's easier to drive than my V1, but it's not close to being as fast.

I actually liked the V6 with the autobox much more on the track. Powerband was sweeter.

Well, you said performance in a general term. And while the V1 has a distinct power advantage, its not monumental with the weight consideration. And as someone who has driven an ATS, I can attest to its handling being better.

When flogging my '04 at V-Day I in '08, I got to run in Advanced with two V2 test mules. While they spanked me on any straight, I held them at bay(even pulling a few feet) on the very tight turns of Summit Point Shenandoah. Weight can be masked, it can never be irrelevant.

Oh, and fine. A tuned 2.0 ATS against a tuned V1. Happy now?

austin
04-09-13, 03:47 PM
A V-Sport AWD with the right front/rear axle gearing would be wicked fast... I would like to see that. :)

RaVeNous
04-09-13, 04:30 PM
I will agree - why not call it:

CTS-S (Sport)

CTS-SS - they beat the SS horse to death already, why not continue.

RippyPartsDept
04-09-13, 06:05 PM
I will agree - why not call it:

CTS-S (Sport)

CTS-SS - they beat the SS horse to death already, why not continue.

because the V brand is Cadillac's and the SS is Chevy's
it just makes sense to expand the V brand
many previous posts have explained why

JFJr
04-09-13, 07:04 PM
I'm not sure this is a huge issue with car guys. We all like high performance engines. Whatever makes Cadillac more profitable and keeps the real "V's" coming. We help them sell cars to a different kind of buyer and Cadillac should give us what we want. A symbiotic relationship?

Jud

JimmyH
04-09-13, 07:44 PM
Not an issue for me. CTS-V, CTS-V-sport. One is way overpriced. The other soon will be.

CavemanB52
04-09-13, 09:25 PM
Well... I didn't get in on this thread from the begining. So I had to sit down and read the damn thing from start to finish. Some of you I am not sure are women or men... Due to all the bitching of course.

GM if you are listening please disreguard your own past stupidity and the US government and continue your current progress in capitalist country to make money. Otherwise we are all just screwed.

So here is Caveman's 2 cents:

The more we get people to start buying American and to stop buying that European trash the better I say. But that's not my main point.

Who the hell is going to confuse a V6 TT with a Supercharged V8.? There are some hard of hearing out there but ill give them a pass and then learn sign language and explain it to them later.

How do you say rumblerumblerumble with a supercharger whine in the background in sign or brail.? This might take a while to get to those few that are deaf.

BTW thebigjimsho still owes me a keyboard for making me spit rum and coke all over my computer.:)

hulksdaddy
04-09-13, 10:35 PM
Seems peeps are losing sight of what this thread is about.

No one has a problem with there being a "VSport".

For some, it's the "V" in the name.

For most, it's the badge, which looks to similar to a true V badge.

CavemanB52
04-09-13, 10:55 PM
Seems peeps are losing sight of what this thread is about.

No one has a problem with there being a "VSport".

For some, it's the "V" in the name.

For most, it's the badge, which looks to similar to a true V badge.

No. I think some of just understand both the want of exclusivity but didn't pay for exclusivity. We didn't pay $200, 000 for the car to buy exclusivity. We paid $70, 000 for a car that is faster than some $250, 000 cars. Get over it you all. Its a car company that gave us a great car for a great price. And for GM to continue to do this... they are going to have to associate this awsome car to as much of their other cars as much as possible. I hope they continue to do so. In the hope that when I need a new true V or the future equivalent or improvement its still there made by GM and not an overpriced peice of Eurotrash.

hulksdaddy
04-09-13, 11:33 PM
No. I think some of just understand both the want of exclusivity but didn't pay for exclusivity. We didn't pay $200, 000 for the car to buy exclusivity. We paid $70, 000 for a car that is faster than some $250, 000 cars. Get over it you all. Its a car company that gave us a great car for a great price. And for GM to continue to do this... they are going to have to associate this awsome car to as much of their other cars as much as possible. I hope they continue to do so. In the hope that when I need a new true V or the future equivalent or improvement its still there made by GM and not an overpriced peice of Eurotrash.

Possibly, time will tell. There is also a chance they dilute the brand, which is not good for Caddy going forward.

And, V's are pretty exclusive, especially coupes and wagons. They are all CTS, but a V is a V. BMW has their M Series, and the M3, M5, and M6 are different models, not the same. I don't think an M5Sport would be that well received by the Bimmer set(could be wrong).

IMO, make this car, but call it a CTS Sport, to fit in between the base and the V Series. Nothing wrong with that, a great idea I think. But, keep a V a V, and this thread wouldn't exist, which is a good thing.

CavemanB52
04-10-13, 12:09 AM
If they dilute the brand then they are a car company that will eventually fall to the wayside of the Europeans. And this new car isn't a V its a Vsport V6 TT. Its pretty easy to tell the difference. I think it will be an awsome answer to the M3 when they put that engine in the ATS V. I might get one for my wife. Althought she just got a 2013 SRX sport out of me. Not sure she deserves that unless I get more sandwiches on demand.

Jinx
04-10-13, 12:11 AM
There's also a chance they extend the brand and sell more cars more profitably, which is good for Caddy going forward.

hulksdaddy
04-10-13, 12:25 AM
Obviously, Cadillac thinks there's a market for the car, and it will boost sales.

It will be a few years before we see how that plays out. As I'm not a fan of the new CTS(unless they design a kickass coupe), it's not a big deal for me personally. An ATS-V Coupe would be very interesting.

1997BlackETC
04-10-13, 12:57 AM
I just wish GM was going to have a Vsport wagon, I might eventually really consider that because it would still have pretty good performance but much better fuel economy. I've already got 8000 miles on my Vagon and only had it a little over 3 months, at this rate I'd be driving over 30K miles per year in this car, thats a lot of money spent at the gas pump. I would definately trade this car I have for a Vsport Wagon if one were available.

Jinx
04-10-13, 01:27 AM
Is over 2,000 miles a month normal for you? Or is that just the honeymoon phase?

austin
04-10-13, 07:50 AM
I talked to my local dealership's manager yesterday, he was informed of the following. I am just passing this on. He seemed very confident of the following information;

(1) There will be an all new CTS-V Sedan in 2015 with the corvette's 605HP engine.

(2) There will no longer be a CTS Coupe / CTS-V Coupe produced. Only a Sedan.

(3) The New 3.6 TT CTS V-Sport will come in AWD.

(4) There is a New ATS Coupe & ATS-V Coupe on the way.

(5) No more CTS Wagon / CTS-V Wagon.

RippyPartsDept
04-10-13, 11:37 AM
1) probably partially correct ... it would be a surprise if they use the exact same engine as the corvette but like the LSA/LS9 it will be similar
2) that's what GM has said although one of the execs did say recently that they're thinking about a coupe, so that might be in the works for later years
3) that's news to me ... definitely not officially confirmed/announced
4) also news to me, but i wouldn't be surprised
5) yeah that's what they say

Jinx
04-10-13, 12:28 PM
When are dealers not confident about what they think they know? Hesitancy doesn't sell cars.

Xaqtly
04-10-13, 01:11 PM
Isn't the 605 HP Corvette engine the upgraded 7 liter NA replacement for the LS7? Or is the Z06 going forced induction now? Not sure how I feel about the CTS-V going back to NA, but 605 HP would still be pretty ridiculously awesome in a lighter CTS-V. Or maybe it's a twin turbo now? Not sure how they're going to get another 100 hp out of the LS7 just by adding direct injection and variable valve timing.

RippyPartsDept
04-10-13, 01:46 PM
When are dealers not confident about what they think they know? Hesitancy doesn't sell cars.

that's why i could never sell cars
i know too much about what i don't know

Jinx
04-10-13, 02:11 PM
Over the course of C7 development, there have been plenty of suggestions that there will be no big-cube replacement for the LS7, and nothing but wishful thinking to the contrary.

We don't even know if there will be a Z06 in the same sense that there is now, i.e. a lightweight track monster with a much-more-powerful NA motor. GM has been silent on future variants of the C7, which is what we should expect since the Stingray's debutante ball isn't over yet.

The only leaked image I've seen that doesn't correlate to the Stingray base or Z51 variants is that of a supercharged engine in the C7 engine bay, leaked by "keeks" late last year and which you can see here:

http://www.corvetteonline.com/news/more-leaked-renderings-of-c7-corvette-revealed/

Note the LT1 on the right, and the supercharged engine on the left.

Maybe that's the next ZR1, and there's still something completely different for the next Z06. Maybe there will only be one C7 above the Stingray.

Anyway, I'm guessing that supercharged engine is what ends up in the V3, and that the horsepower will be just enough for Cadillac to mount a credible effort to recapture the "fastest sedan at Nurburgring" title.

.Jinx

Chrispy
04-10-13, 03:27 PM
I can't see them not doing a detuned version of a direct injection turbo or blown V8 for the V3 cars. 650 horsepower would be a breeze to hit that setup.

The big question is if the General is going to go the turbo route or the blown V8 route. Personally I like the differentiation the blown V has over a turbo'd German car.

quikag
04-10-13, 04:26 PM
I took the V badges off my ' 12 CTS-V sedan to lower the profile a bit. I didn't buy the car to look cool, I bought it to haul a** at will. I don't care about a VSport. They are just copying Lexus on their F-sport stuff. Mercedes puts AMG badges on any of their cars where the buyer buys the AMG sport package (mostly body trim and wheel/tire package). It's still not a true AMG by a long shot.

I can't wait to see what the General has in store for the C7 Z06 and ZR1 as well as the V3 CTS-V. Last I heard was they had turbo and supercharged V8 applications that they were validating to determine how to proceed. I wouldn't mind turbo too on the CTS-V, but then it wouldn't be that differentiated from the E63 AMG and the BMW M5 which both sport twin turbo V8's now. Maybe a next gen roots blower strapped to a 5.5L DI LT1 derivative with a bit over 600hp in the CTS-V. Then, do a 2.6L TVS next-gen set-up on the 5.5L spinning about 15psi on a fully forged LT9 for the C7 ZR1 and have it make 695hp (because 700hp would scare the insurance companies). :D I'd buy them.

V2 BRAWN
04-10-13, 09:34 PM
Color me as a skeptic that GM will put a power adder on another V8 car that isn't extremely limited production. The current and V3 CTS-V's both have approx. 49 sq ft of footprint. Therefore the CAFE standard goes from ~32 mpg for 2013 to ~35 mpg for 2015 and higher thereafter.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/CAFE_Fuel_Economy_vs_Model_Year_and_Footprint_with _2017-2022_Proposals.png
They must pay the piper on fuel economy. Even the announced turbo 4 is not making the grade at 19 city and 30 highway. See footnote 6 at http://www.cadillac.com/future-cars/all-new-cts-sedan.html

Investing in more power for the future is the wrong corporate move. I'm not against it. I just don't see it happening.

Jinx
04-10-13, 10:05 PM
The pain of CAFE escalation hasn't hit the mainstream yet. When non-enthusiasts end up in an expensive new car that isn't as good as their old one, political sentiment may shift.

And remember, manufacturers can choose not to meet the target for a particular car if they exceed the target on other cars... or they can choose not to meet CAFE and pay penalties and pass the projected cost of those penalties on to buyers of those target-missing cars.

Finally, be careful comparing Monroney fuel economy numbers with CAFE numbers -- they're not the same. CAFE is still based on the older "uncorrected" formula for fuel economy which is higher than what we get on window stickers (and at fueleconomy.gov) today. So that turbo-4 probably exceeds the CTS CAFE target for the next three model years.

.Jinx

Chrispy
04-11-13, 10:41 AM
Good points but with the volumes they are looking at for Halo cars (V and ZR1) the general gives a flying fock about CAFE. They can make that up in other lines or pass the cost onto customers...imho of course :)

RaVeNous
04-11-13, 12:10 PM
This Cafe stuff looks like Greek

Jinx
04-11-13, 12:46 PM
Good points but with the volumes they are looking at for Halo cars (V and ZR1) the general gives a flying fock about CAFE. They can make that up in other lines or pass the cost onto customers...imho of course :)

It's a good thing Cadillac is building the Vsport -- the V1 owners who couldn't make the jump to V2s again have a quick Cadillac they can aspire to. (Seems to me the new Vsport will be as quick as or even quicker than the V1, yes?) It's a good bet that some V2 owners are going to learn what those V1 owners felt like.

Man it's going to suck if CAFE succeeds in killing affordable horsepower.

RaVeNous
04-11-13, 01:21 PM
I disagree ^^^

The jump from V1 to V2 is almost a full second 0-60 1/4 mile times and the V2 has way better mod potential. The V2 also was the first car to really put it to the BMW, Benz, and Audi folks. The V3 won't be as groundbreaking. But it will probably be insane.

The Vsport TT probably won't be that much slower than the V2 in daily driving because of AWD, new transmission, and more modern technology. It will weigh around 200lbs less. It will also probably respond to tuning. I will also guarantee that the 2014 Vsport is going to cost as much as the V2 fully loaded.

Whatever the V3 is....whatever the setup, its going to cost over 80k and be way out of my price range probably for the rest of my life. It will be faster than the V2 for sure, but its not going to trounce it like the V2 did to the V1. In addition, you will still be able to mod a V2 to compete with the V3. Thats pretty tough to do with a V1, and you don't get all of the extra goodies that really makes the V2 special (ride control, comfort, interior trim, looks). As far as the looks for the V3 only time will tell if they make it distinctive. I really like the new front on the CTS, but the rear and overall car looks very grandpaish. I like it a lot, its just not that sporty edgy look that the current CTS-V has.

I think you all will be coughing when you see the MSRP on these new Cadillac just based on how they are pricing the ATS....which is to say way overpriced if you ask me.

tinman
04-11-13, 01:26 PM
Dunno if anyone saw yesterday's Wall St. Journal. Picture of a Gen 2 V Sedan with the caption that a Coupe will be available in '14. The article it was paired with talked how MB has the AMG and BMW has the M, that Caddy will have the V (kinda referring to a skunkworks type of thing, but it was watered down for the casual dumbass reader). It stated how there are all of these different "hot" models with high HP that people will spend money on.

RaVeNous
04-11-13, 01:31 PM
^^^There is going to be an ATS coupe. The future ATS-V is probably going to be close to the V2 in performance at least in 0-60 if it gets that TT of the CTS and AWD. That setup might lose some of the light weight handling though that everyone likes about the ATS. We will see. I bet the price of an ATS-V will be about $65k as well. Thats a lot for a very smallish car, but it will probably be a monster performance wise, perhaps M3'ish.

Jinx
04-11-13, 03:19 PM
Seems to me the ATS should get a coupe and the CTS should get a wagon.
I'm not just saying that because I really love roomy asshauling luxury wagons.

.Jinx
Okay, maybe I am.

tinman
04-11-13, 03:37 PM
A five year old AMG E Class Wagon would beat an Audi R8 in 0-60 mph back then.