: What mods next? Maggie? Cam?



Johnson
03-25-13, 09:46 PM
I have a 2005 CTSV (Kooks, Cats, Magnaflow, K&N CAI, Shifter, Axles, all bushings). I am looking to add a maggie and ls9 cam, What other items should I do at the same time? What throttle body will work and is best NA now and with the maggie, any other suggestions? Thanks

OneFast V
03-25-13, 10:15 PM
Depending on how much your willing to do I'd do an edelbrock eforce

robojesus
03-25-13, 10:32 PM
i'd do better heads and a larger cam plus the E-Force. C6 guys are getting 600+rwhp out of LS2's.

philistine
03-25-13, 10:59 PM
I've thought about something similar myself...heads, cam, supercharger (E-Force FTW). Has anyone spun a bearing pushing 600whp? That's about, hmm...750hp at the crank. Can the transmission handle that?

Those 2 items keep my bank account safe :) The "clunk" is dangerously approaching my funds for the CS rear-end mod though!

izcain
03-26-13, 01:24 AM
I have a 2005 CTSV (Kooks, Cats, Magnaflow, K&N CAI, Shifter, Axles, all bushings). I am looking to add a maggie and ls9 cam, What other items should I do at the same time? What throttle body will work and is best NA now and with the maggie, any other suggestions? Thanks

I think this would make nice power!

Naf
03-26-13, 10:16 AM
if you are gonna leave all the internals stock i wouldnt push for too much, then it will an expensive rebuild...Stroke her to a 383 and try and hold that power down, then if you feel the urge slap a SC ontop and love it...

rand49er
03-26-13, 12:50 PM
... I am looking to add a maggie and ls9 cam, What other items should I do at the same time? What throttle body will work and is best NA now and with the maggie, any other suggestions? ThanksNot sure what impact the LS9 cam would have, but assuming you're committed to a maggie, the next step could involve doing an LS2 throttle body (you'll need an adaptor and harness) then possibly an eight-rib, over-size (8") crank pulley with smaller (2.7" or 2.6") drive pulley, finally a nice dyno tune. I was poised to do this after my maggie, but chickened out. My car runs so well and is so reliable at present, I just didn't want to risk mod hell.

I hate MH.

izcain
03-26-13, 01:32 PM
Not sure what impact the LS9 cam would have, but assuming you're committed to a maggie, the next step could involve doing an LS2 throttle body (you'll need an adaptor and harness) then possibly an eight-rib, over-size (8") crank pulley with smaller (2.7" or 2.6") drive pulley, finally a nice dyno tune. I was poised to do this after my maggie, but chickened out. My car runs so well and is so reliable at present, I just didn't want to risk mod hell.

I hate MH.

Hey Rand do you know where the adapter is for the harness or who makes it? Im lookin to swap to the 90mm myself as well. Gotta get a 90mm snout for magnacharger also.

OneFast V
03-26-13, 02:43 PM
Hey Rand do you know where the adapter is for the harness or who makes it? Im lookin to swap to the 90mm myself as well. Gotta get a 90mm snout for magnacharger also.

Snout comes from Magnuson. Casper electronics for the adapter.

rand49er
03-26-13, 04:45 PM
Hey Rand do you know where the adapter is for the harness or who makes it? Im lookin to swap to the 90mm myself as well. Gotta get a 90mm snout for magnacharger also.Got my adaptor from Hendrix, but I'm sure he doesn't stock them on any regular basis. I'd take OneFast V's suggestion and call Magnuson directly. My 90mm TB and harness was a takeoff I got from Katech, again not something they'd normally stock I'd think. You might have to search around a bit for those, but I'm sure they're out there.

Skidmarcx
03-26-13, 06:43 PM
The money involved with switching to a 90mm TB isn't worth the 10hp you'll gain if you go the Maggie route IMO...

DMM
03-26-13, 06:56 PM
The 90mm throttle body has been proven to not be worth the expense...5-7whp for $500 throttle body and a $200 adapter. The throttle body is not the restriction on FI that everyone seems to think it is. Take the $700 and put it towards a 100 shot instead.

A Maggie and LS9 cam is a really good choice for a nice reliable setup. I moved on to an E-Force but you have to know what you are doing and have a bit of vision and fab skills to pull it off. I did mine for less than the cost of a Maggie, although I am still refining it.

The Maggie is nearly maxed out on stock cubes so no need to waste money on a crazy cam and/or heads.

izcain
03-26-13, 11:16 PM
Have you run the LS9 cam DMM?

I have spent alot more then that chasing less then 10 hp lol

Skidmarcx
03-27-13, 12:49 AM
I think the LS6 cam is fine for a Maggie... The fact that its a furnace is the limiting factor... Unless your dead set on changing the cam or have a reason to open up the motor then I'd leave it... Again it's cost versus gain... I'm at 475/472 with overdrive lower and 2.75" upper... I doubt much more could be had with a cam/TB upgrade... Now if you run e85 or nitrous... Then it's a different story

OneFast V
03-27-13, 01:04 AM
The 90mm throttle body has been proven to not be worth the expense...5-7whp for $500 throttle body and a $200 adapter. The throttle body is not the restriction on FI that everyone seems to think it is. Take the $700 and put it towards a 100 shot instead.

A Maggie and LS9 cam is a really good choice for a nice reliable setup. I moved on to an E-Force but you have to know what you are doing and have a bit of vision and fab skills to pull it off. I did mine for less than the cost of a Maggie, although I am still refining it.

The Maggie is nearly maxed out on stock cubes so no need to waste money on a crazy cam and/or heads.

I gained 25 rwhp (correction: 15 rwhp) off an LS2 throttle body alone (on a maggie LS6) with the dyno sheets to show that. Also got my throttle body for rough $200 and adapter for $50

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/276467-dyno-results-90mm-tb-upgrade-maggie.html

izcain
03-27-13, 01:14 AM
There is power to be had from changing the cam.

Many have done it and seen nice gains. Not that big of a deal to change a cam. Depends on if you mind swinging a wrench or not.

I was just wondering since I have not seen many peoples increase with a ls9 cam so just wondering who has installed one and how did it turn out.

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I gained 25 rwhp off an LS2 throttle body alone (on a maggie LS6) with the dyno sheets to show that. Also got my throttle body for rough $200 and adapter for $50

Those are nice gains!

Skidmarcx
03-27-13, 01:00 PM
I think a lot depends on how fast you're spinning the Maggie... I think once you reach the 500 mark that's about it for the Maggie LS6 unless you go e85 or spray... so, in my case a cam most likely isn't worth the work...

OneFast V
03-27-13, 03:02 PM
I think a lot depends on how fast you're spinning the Maggie... I think once you reach the 500 mark that's about it for the Maggie LS6 unless you go e85 or spray... so, in my case a cam most likely isn't worth the work...

A cam would definitely help you better utilize the extra air you are pushing in the motor. the LS9 cam was designed with a blower in mind and I wouldn't be surprised if you saw close 15 whp or more with it.

Skidmarcx
03-27-13, 03:47 PM
A cam would definitely help you better utilize the extra air you are pushing in the motor. the LS9 cam was designed with a blower in mind and I wouldn't be surprised if you saw close 15 whp or more with it.

I agree it'll yield gains, but for all that money and work no thanks... cam, valve springs, oil pump, etc... all adds up

DMM
03-27-13, 09:25 PM
Have you run the LS9 cam DMM?

I have spent alot more then that chasing less then 10 hp lol

I personally have not, although many have with good results. There are better cams to run, but the Maggie is the limiting factor so in all honesty it really doesn't make a difference.

I'd continue with the (cheap) LS9 cam and valve springs, LS2 front cover and timing chain, OD crank balancer, 1 7/8" headers, DW300 fuel pump, and a custom tune. It will be reliable and make about the most power possible from a Maggie.

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I gained 25 rwhp (correction: 15 rwhp) off an LS2 throttle body alone (on a maggie LS6) with the dyno sheets to show that. Also got my throttle body for rough $200 and adapter for $50

Not likely at all. I can see 10-12whp from changes to the tune and maybe 3-5whp from the throttle body, but you didn't get 15 whp from the throttle body alone. Too many people have done this swap with little to no gain for you to be the exception. And your dyno sheet looks suspiciously odd.

Granted, your LS6 throttle body died and you had nothing to lose since you got everything dirt cheap, I would have done the same. It's just not worth it if you are trying to upgrade and are paying full price.

OneFast V
03-27-13, 10:02 PM
Not likely at all. I can see 10-12whp from changes to the tune and maybe 3-5whp from the throttle body, but you didn't get 15 whp from the throttle body alone. Too many people have done this swap with little to no gain for you to be the exception. And your dyno sheet looks suspiciously odd.

Granted, your LS6 throttle body died and you had nothing to lose since you got everything dirt cheap, I would have done the same. It's just not worth it if you are trying to upgrade and are paying full price.

How can it be the tune? this was the same tuner who previously tuned it. I took it back to him with the new throttle body and he updated the tune with the new throttle body. The only delta was the throttle body unless I'm missing something

Johnson
03-28-13, 12:19 AM
Thanks guys, I dont want to go through the hassle of pulling the heads and making the tvs fit, so I will be adding the Maggie, I thought the cam would be a good addition and give me an opportunity to check and upgrade the springs, valve train etc I am now at 90,000miles

The mods I will be adding are below, anything else I should add or missing?
Magnusson MP112
LS9 Cam
Comp Cams Trunion Upgrade
Texas Speed Dual Valve Springs
Cloyes/C5R timing chain
LS2 Throttle Body/Harness

izcain
03-28-13, 12:20 AM
How can it be the tune? this was the same tuner who previously tuned it. I took it back to him with the new throttle body and he updated the tune with the new throttle body. The only delta was the throttle body unless I'm missing something

Do you know how far off the tune was after changing the throttle body? just curious.

tommy compton
03-28-13, 12:34 AM
Thanks guys, I dont want to go through the hassle of pulling the heads and making the tvs fit, so I will be adding the Maggie, I thought the cam would be a good addition and give me an opportunity to check and upgrade the springs, valve train etc I am now at 90,000miles

The mods I will be adding are below, anything else I should add or missing?
Magnusson MP112
LS9 Cam
Comp Cams Trunion Upgrade
Texas Speed Dual Valve Springs
Cloyes/C5R timing chain
LS2 Throttle Body/Harness

Most would say oil pump, while your there.

Johnson
03-28-13, 12:37 AM
Most would say oil pump, while your there.

Any suggestions? Katech? Melling? Is there one vendor that carries everything for our cars or do I need to piece this together from different vendors.

izcain
03-28-13, 12:41 AM
I would also invest in a quality aftermarket balancer. The stock ones suck and they suck worse when they are already pinned.

tommy compton
03-28-13, 12:44 AM
I went with Melling hi pressure, you can get all your after at texas speed, minus the ls9 cam (they could probably get one for you?)
Katech are known for their pumps too, but I opted for Melling because I was already getting parts from Texas speed.

danrob0123
03-28-13, 12:45 AM
Thanks guys, I dont want to go through the hassle of pulling the heads and making the tvs fit, so I will be adding the Maggie, I thought the cam would be a good addition and give me an opportunity to check and upgrade the springs, valve train etc I am now at 90,000miles

The mods I will be adding are below, anything else I should add or missing?
Magnusson MP112
LS9 Cam
Comp Cams Trunion Upgrade
Texas Speed Dual Valve Springs
Cloyes/C5R timing chain
LS2 Throttle Body/Harness

I think this is a given but pushrods? Everything else sounds good.

Skidmarcx
03-28-13, 12:50 AM
I would also invest in a quality aftermarket balancer. The stock ones suck and they suck worse when they are already pinned.

I agree... Might as well get the Innovators West overdrive balancer... Their pinning kit is easy to install too

OneFast V
03-28-13, 01:19 AM
Do you know how far off the tune was after changing the throttle body? just curious.

Drove it to the tuner with the new throttle body and no new tune. It ran great so I assume it didn't need much adjusting.

izcain
03-28-13, 01:24 AM
Drove it to the tuner with the new throttle body and no new tune. It ran great so I assume it didn't need much adjusting.

Good to know.

DMM
03-28-13, 07:06 PM
How can it be the tune? this was the same tuner who previously tuned it. I took it back to him with the new throttle body and he updated the tune with the new throttle body. The only delta was the throttle body unless I'm missing something

If the only value changed was the throttle scaler you are reinforcing my point. If he didn't have to touch the MAF and VE tables that reinforces the notion that it did not provide any additional airflow. Also, I saw that this was on a Dynapack...anyone can get those things to read just about anything they want. Hell, I have a Dynapack sheet that says a stock LS6 with a 112 Maggie @ 7 PSI and 1 7/8" headers made 487whp...that didn't happen either in case you're wondering.

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Thanks guys, I dont want to go through the hassle of pulling the heads and making the tvs fit, so I will be adding the Maggie, I thought the cam would be a good addition and give me an opportunity to check and upgrade the springs, valve train etc I am now at 90,000miles

The mods I will be adding are below, anything else I should add or missing?
Magnusson MP112
LS9 Cam
Comp Cams Trunion Upgrade
Texas Speed Dual Valve Springs
Cloyes/C5R timing chain
LS2 Throttle Body/Harness

You're dumping a lot of coin for absolutely no reason. The COMP trunion upgrade is no longer recommended b/c they're crap and have recently been puking the bearings more so than the OE units...COMP Cam's materials and QC are so bad that just about everyone is dumping them for Cam Motion. I believe Geoff at EPS just made the jump due to poor quality as well. There is an entire thread about not doing the COMP trunion upgrade over on LS1 Tech...I'll try to dig it up.

Brian Tooley racing has the best set of LS springs available and the entire kit is $219...for everything. Really good dude to deal with also.

The Cloyes chain is overkill, stick with the LS2 and save a few bucks. You'll have to get an LS2 front cover and a Trailblazer SS LS2 cam gear to make the LS9 cam work since the cam sensor has been moved to the front cover on GEN IV and later engines. A new cover comes with the sensor and you have to extend the cam sensor harness and swap the outer wires to make it work.

V1 fuel pumps are historically weak and with the age I would get a new in tank DW300 (or Walboro 255) and do away with the BAP. Much more reliable and the OE pump can get to the point where it doesn't flow at all above a certain pressure no matter how much voltage you throw at the thing.

As stated, LS2 TB won't get you anything. I really recommend to ditch it for either an IW or Summit (cheaper) overdriven crank balancer and make sure to pin it during reassembly. A set of 1 7/8" headers will add power throughout the RPM range while adding a distinctive growl.

In all reality, you don't need anything more than a stock replacement oil pump. You can spend more but it won't get you anything. If you're at the point where you actually need an aftermarket HV/HP pump you likely have deeper issue's like a spun cam bearing or something.

Most importantly, go to a well known tuner. A Maggie tune using the OE OS is not hard at all, but the MAF and VE table need to be adjusted using a wideband. Do not settle for someone raping the PE (power enrichment) value's and calling it a day. Try to see the before and after tune to see what was changed...this can be done quickly and easily.

My $0.02. Take it or leave it.


Found the COMP Trunion thread: http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1632094-comp-cams-trunions-worth.html

OneFast V
03-28-13, 07:06 PM
If the only value changed was the throttle scaler you are reinforcing my point. If he didn't have to touch the MAF and VE tables that reinforces the notion that it did not provide any additional airflow. Also, I saw that this was on a Dynapack...anyone can get those things to read just about anything they want. Hell, I have a Dynapack sheet that says a stock LS6 with a 112 Maggie @ 7 PSI and 1 7/8" headers made 487whp...that didn't happen either in case you're wondering.

I guess.. I did not ask the extent to which he modified my tune however I don't know why he would fabricate numbers and give them to me? Either way in my case it was the logical path, may not be that way for everyone but it worked out for me and if/when the ls6 tb craps out I would definitely recommend it.

DMM
03-28-13, 09:48 PM
Here's one thread I was looking for...upgraded to 90mm and got 3whp. The search sucks donkey balls on this site...lucky I found anything at all.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/212125-maggie-ls6-90mm-tb-dyno.html

brngrhd
05-29-13, 08:17 PM
I really recommend to ditch it for either an IW or Summit (cheaper) overdriven crank balancer and make sure to pin it during reassembly. A set of 1 7/8" headers will add power throughout the RPM range while adding a distinctive growl.

I have looked for this summit OD pulley that everyone talks about with no luck anyone have a part number on this thing?

DMM
05-29-13, 11:41 PM
I have looked for this summit OD pulley that everyone talks about with no luck anyone have a part number on this thing?

My bad man, it's Jegg's that has one for about $300. Their catalogs are a little ambiguous stating an "Overdriven balancer for use with superchargers" although it says it's the standard 7.5". One has to be a typo...I'll call tomorrow and see if I can get some more info.

OneFast V
05-30-13, 10:57 AM
My bad man, it's Jegg's that has one for about $300. Their catalogs are a little ambiguous stating an "Overdriven balancer for use with superchargers" although it says it's the standard 7.5". One has to be a typo...I'll call tomorrow and see if I can get some more info.

I believe you are looking at this part:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/516253/10002/-1

Last time I talked to Jegs they said ti does fit the CTS-V also.

brngrhd
05-30-13, 02:02 PM
Perfect. Now to make sure it is actually 10%OD not 7.5inches thanks guys. Anyone have problems running OD on the other accessories?

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Called Jegs talked to Ed he didn't have the info but said he will call me back after he gets the actual measurement. I'll post as soon a I get the call.

OneFast V
05-30-13, 02:36 PM
Perfect. Now to make sure it is actually 10%OD not 7.5inches thanks guys. Anyone have problems running OD on the other accessories?

This is why innovators west offer all the other pulleys. They are 10% undersized to accommodate the 10% overdrive balancer.

brngrhd
05-30-13, 08:26 PM
This is why innovators west offer all the other pulleys. They are 10% undersized to accommodate the 10% overdrive balancer.

I understand what and why but are they really NEEDED?

brngrhd
06-03-13, 04:11 PM
Confirmed by jegs size is 8.25"