: Anyone with similar mods? trying to get a HP range where I should be?



topend22
03-20-13, 02:32 PM
I have a 2009 CTS V SEDAN AUTO. Previous Dyno was with a air raid CAI and conservative tune. I was at 475 RWHP on a mustang dyno. I ran an 11.7 on stock tires at 119.8 MPH with just a tune and air raid, so it's seems to be a strong car. My current set up is the following...

New era. CAI
Green long filter
Brake duct mod-Ram air directly into the air filter
Brand new stock blower, new everything, snout.
v hat, blower, etc...courtesy of the dealer to get rid of marbles.
LPE solid isolater
Kooks coated headers
Full kooks mid pipes with high performance cats
SLP loud mouth mufflers
2.35 upper pulley-13-14lbs of boost IM GUESSING.
Weapon X track attack HX
Dual catch cans
93 octane fuel

GOING IN FOR A FULL DYNO TUNE ON A DYNO JET MONDAY. What do you guys think the RWHP will be when my tune is complete? I'm looking for a range so I have something to just give me an idea.. Also, any chance with the new set up I could break into the 10.99 at the track. I was doing 11.77 to 11.91 all day last trip to the track on stock tires.

wait4me
03-20-13, 03:59 PM
My guess 566.

Stillborn
03-20-13, 04:20 PM
do you have injectors? i'm guessing you will run out of fuel way before 566rwhp.

wait4me
03-20-13, 04:35 PM
do you have injectors? i'm guessing you will run out of fuel way before 566rwhp.

that is no way near accurate.

Stillborn
03-20-13, 09:03 PM
that is no way near accurate.

i guess we'll all know monday. ;)

and so we are in complete understanding, i didn't mean what the fuel pump can deliver, but rather what the stock injectors
are capable of. capiche?

wait4me
03-20-13, 09:05 PM
The stock injectors are EXACTLY THE SAME ONES ON THE ZR1 corvette. But I guess they don't make 638hp.... lol

topend22
03-20-13, 10:09 PM
I was told I do not need injectors unless I'm going to go with e85. Otherwise I'm good will room to spare. As jessie stated we have the same injectors as the ZR 1

1997BlackETC
03-20-13, 10:21 PM
I wonder if it's possible to put smaller injectors on a stock 2013 CTS-V and get the same HP due to leaning it out a little bit and get better gas mileage? Maybe low end throttle response might be a little better too due to it running so pig rich stock?

wait4me
03-20-13, 10:40 PM
I wonder if it's possible to put smaller injectors on a stock 2013 CTS-V and get the same HP due to leaning it out a little bit and get better gas mileage? Maybe low end throttle response might be a little better too due to it running so pig rich stock?


Injector size is changed by fuel pressure on our engine setup in THIS car.
It lowers the Actual injector flow rate at low hp and at idle by modifying the pulse width of the fuel pumps to make it a lower desired fuel pressure, in most cases 30psi, down from the 65-72 it does at full throttle.

this way the injector always stays in its sweet spot where it has a lot of resolution and control/accuracy.

Changing to a smaller injector would be a waste of money.

Stillborn
03-21-13, 01:30 AM
i think you're blowing smoke. the zr1 is 630 hp and or 530rwhp.(same as my car and i'm at 90%) with added boost, headers, & intake he's gonna be over 95% on those injectors. i dont give a crap, it's not my car but it's silly to play around in the most important aspect of tuning IE: fueling. mike maz, who's doing your tune?

wait4me
03-21-13, 08:47 AM
Instead of saying I'm wrong, call the dealer, ask them the part numbers for both injectors, then come back to this post and apologize...

If you are at 90% injector, your "tuner" didn't set up to request more fuel.. People have been making 600 rwhp with stock injectors since the cars have come out in 2008. My red one was on the Dyno the second day I had gotten it making 600 rwhp.. On stock injectors. The "fuel injector" issue is just a sales thing for some one to be selling expensive injectors to people that don't know better... 600 hp and higher is when you will run out of injector.. Do some reading...

topend22
03-21-13, 10:48 AM
Instead of saying I'm wrong, call the dealer, ask them the part numbers for both injectors, then come back to this post and apologize...

If you are at 90% injector, your "tuner" didn't set up to request more fuel.. People have been making 600 rwhp with stock injectors since the cars have come out in 2008. My red one was on the Dyno the second day I had gotten it making 600 rwhp.. On stock injectors. The "fuel injector" issue is just a sales thing for some one to be selling expensive injectors to people that don't know better... 600 hp and higher is when you will run out of injector.. Do some reading... thanks Jessie..

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i think you're blowing smoke. the zr1 is 630 hp and or 530rwhp.(same as my car and i'm at 90%) with added boost, headers, & intake he's gonna be over 95% on those injectors. i dont give a crap, it's not my car but it's silly to play around in the most important aspect of tuning IE: fueling. mike maz, who's doing your tune? my tune is being done by Alternative Performance. Been tuning for over 25 years.

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i think you're blowing smoke. the zr1 is 630 hp and or 530rwhp.(same as my car and i'm at 90%) with added boost, headers, & intake he's gonna be over 95% on those injectors. i dont give a crap, it's not my car but it's silly to play around in the most important aspect of tuning IE: fueling. mike maz, who's doing your tune? I'm confused, are you 530 HP or 634?

wait4me
03-21-13, 10:53 AM
According to his mod list in the header, he has a 2.55 pulley, which would be 530-550hp. NOT 634, he is probably posting his at engine numbers which are still a bit high. Even though recaros probably add at least 50 butt dyno hp...

topend22
03-21-13, 11:19 AM
According to his mod list in the header, he has a 2.55 pulley, which would be 530-550hp. NOT 634, he is probably posting his at engine numbers which are still a bit high. Even though recaros probably add at least 50 butt dyno hp... I have the charcoal Recaros, they put out 75hp, you must be quoting the saffron ones. Those are 25hp less. Or, he could have installed a Flux Capaciter.

Stillborn
03-21-13, 02:53 PM
i dont have headers, just a 2.5 and cai. i listed hp as all manufactures do. do your own math to determine rwhp/tq. i never said the 52lb injectors werent on both cars. all i said was good luck with your tune. ;) and your smart ass know it all replies are why you will never get my business you knuckle dragging hillbilly.

wait4me
03-21-13, 03:37 PM
i dont have headers, just a 2.5 and cai. i listed hp as all manufactures do. do your own math to determine rwhp/tq. i never said the 52lb injectors werent on both cars. all i said was good luck with your tune. ;) and your smart ass know it all replies are why you will never get my business you knuckle dragging hillbilly.

You are being silly.

Read your posts, the first one in post 3 said that the stock injectors where not going to work. Yet, as I posted, the same ones are used in the ZR1 making that same horsepower...

Secondly, you said I was "blowing smoke" which again a quick call to your local dealer will prove that I was correct.

Third, When I said "that is no where near accurate" I was saying that the limit for the stock injectors has been PROVEN to be way over 550 and still supply fuel and be controllable, well within range of control. 600hp is the limit for safety on them.

Injector duty cycle will change depending on what the actual fuel ratio is as well, a car that someone tunes to be 11.7 air fuel "which is still safe" will have a lower duty cycle that being tuned to 10.8.. So, if the fuel is in the right spot, and you have the fuel pressure correct and stabilized, then you are good.

Not all tuners mess with the right stuff to allow for more fuel pressure and voltages..

So, Instead of being a negative person, and making yourself look childish, lets just all be adults and be more accurate with your information...

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One more thing to add, if you re read my last post, I said this "According to his mod list in the header, he has a 2.55 pulley, "

It said you had a 2.55 pulley. I did not say you had headers.

Stillborn
03-21-13, 04:07 PM
stop back peddling. you go run some poor fools afr at 11.9/12.3 (depending on weather and a possible bad batch of gas) and hope they dont fry a ringland. my a/f is set at 11.4 at the time of tune, once winter came it went up to 11.8.(and an additional lb of boost) that is enough reason to go with larger injectors if i had more mods. I'll trust what guys (like g-force) are doing instead of a guy who just wants to be right all the time. you drew first blood, not me.

mike maz has headers and a smaller pulley.(2.3) he will need injectors. mark my words.

wait4me
03-21-13, 04:15 PM
stop back peddling. you go run some poor fools afr at 11.9/12.3 (depending on weather) and hope they dont fry a ringland. my a/f is set at 11.4 at the time of tune, once winter came it went up to 11.8. that is enough reason to go with larger injectors if i had more mods. I'll trust what guys (like g-force) are doing instead of a guy who just wants to be right all the time. you drew first blood, not me.

mike maz has headers and a smaller pulley.(2.3) he will need injectors. mark my words.

Again, you are adding more words that im not saying. Where in the posts have I put or even said those air fuel ratios. 11.9 is not going to kill a supercharged engine sorry to say, even though I never said that value..
The reason why YOURS might have went to a different air fuel ratio was from a setting in the tune based on iat or on coolant temp. Sounds like YOUR tuner just didn't compensate for that. :(

How many cars have you built? How many cars have you tuned?

Stillborn
03-21-13, 04:20 PM
this is my 28th car... 2/3rd of which were modified. this isn't my first rodeo. i said all i have to say on this as i dont have a dog in the fight. mike maz i hope you are happy with the tune and your new mods. you'll be very happy when it's all squared away. keep us posted on what's what. :)

wait4me
03-21-13, 04:23 PM
I read farther into your last post, and it isn't the fuel injector size that is manipulating your actual air fuel ratio sorry to say from summer to winter....

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Also one more thing. Your saying about me back peddling, how the heck is that if i'm telling others to go somewhere local. LOL Not sure what your problem is. All I was doing here is posting FACTUAL data. Not hearsay and you get all pissed about it..

Stillborn
03-21-13, 04:27 PM
I read farther into your last post, and it isn't the fuel injector size that is manipulating your actual air fuel ratio sorry to say from summer to winter....

you're exactly right, but as i stated if he's maxed out at 95% at 11.7ish and gets a bad batch of fuel and denser air from colder temps,...i think you know whats going to possibly happen. i would never be happy with any afr that high on a daily driver. 11.2-11.4 is as high as I'd personally take it. if you want an additional track tune per sct and adding torco blend then thats another ballgame. but for a set dd tune, 11.7 or above is just plain dumb. we aren't even talking timing here either, but again 17* is max for a dd in my book. you can do what you want. I'll keep my investment safe.

bottom line, why make excuses for afr and injector size safety, if you cant safely reach a target afr via stock injectors than it's time to get larger injectors.
end of story.

so the story goes, can you? i guess you can. would i? absolutly not.

wait4me
03-21-13, 04:34 PM
You also haven't answered the question clearly. How many 2009 up cts v have you PHYSICALLY MODIFIED with your own hands with parts, and in the second answer, How many CTSV HAVE YOU PERSONALLY TUNED.

From your answers in the previous responses, you don't have a real clue about anything of it and are just making stuff up.. The forums are supposed to be for people to have exact real answers. With not some made up he said she said stuff..

Sorry if you get mad about being wrong on it. But that is the way it is..

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you're exactly right, but as i stated if he's maxed out at 95% at 11.7ish and gets a bad batch of fuel and denser air from colder temps,...i think you know whats going to possibly happen. i would never be happy with any afr that high on a daily driver. 11.2-11.4 is as high as I'd personally take it. if you want an additional track tune per sct and adding torco blend then thats another ballgame. but for a set dd tune, 11.7 or above is just plain dumb. we aren't even talking timing here either, but again 17* is max for a dd in my book. you can do what you want. I'll keep my investment safe.


You are ignoring the fact that the cts v has a fuel pump control module with pwm fuel pumps, that can adjust fuel pressure.

As long as the fuel pressure is higher and can maintain the desired fuel pressure, then the fuel injectors are good. The problem I see is, that the fuel pressure cant keep up with the demand as it approaches the 600rwhp mark, so all you have to do is add a higher desired fuel pressure, in this case 72psi up from the 60-65 and then modify the applied voltage up from the 12 stock to 16-18 at wot.. It is that simple.

At that point, your injector is physically a larger lb per hour.

Just like in the zr1.. Same injector, and can go much larger than what you are saying..

GM wouldn't use it in the car if it couldn't handle the horsepower the stock engine is producing. A stock zr1 on my dyno here which is a mustang 250hd with eddycurrent makes 560-580 BONE stock without a pulley change, It does just fine after putting on the smaller pulley and tune which brings it up past 600, however, it has an advantage of 85psi at wot..

Stillborn
03-21-13, 04:44 PM
ask g-force if the would run those figures. you make it much more involved than it is. if the injectors are over 95% at over 11.4 afr, you need larger injectors. period. your right, im wrong. happy? next.

topend22
03-21-13, 07:45 PM
Stillborn, I hate to say this but you really should not be putting words in Gforce Mouth. How do you know what he would say? If my tuner says I will need injectors based on the numbers he sees, i will by all means add injectors to the list. There are 3 local tuners here in Michigan, 1 being Livernois Motorsports. Very big company. All three tuning shops told me I should not need injectors, as well as Jessie, who I never met personally but has never steered my wrong and seems like a great guy. I have also been told by several others that my injectors, the same as the ZR1 can be adjusted to be safe with my mods. on another note, I have also seen some tuners that have said. "You Must have bigger injectors" my personal feeling it they dont have the experience and dont know how to set up the current injectors so they just have the customer buy larger ones because thier lack of knowledge. Anyways, I just though I would drop in and mention that it is not cool to put words into another vendors mouth. (G-Force). As far as HP numbers, I have not seen anyone on any forum list thier Engine HP numbers. Thats what confussed me. All I ever see on the forums and I belong to several is the actual measured HP numbers from a dyno, not a mathmatical number that people have to trig out just to see what you real HP numbers are. one last thing, My tuner has 25 years experience tuning cars and if Jessie was closer to me, he would be my number 1 choice. I dont think you can deny his expertise. Last point I want to make, we are all adults here, it would be nice if you can keep the name calling to yourself, there is no reason for that, Jessie nor myself called you any names, he simply stated facts based on his experience with tuning probably over 1000 CTS V's. if not more. Just talk to what YOU know from experience, not what you think "GForce" may or may not say. No hard feelings man, just chill out.

FastMatt
03-21-13, 08:13 PM
ZR1's have been pushed over 700 rwhp on stock injectors and fuel pumps...... just saying....

Stillborn
03-21-13, 10:39 PM
Stillborn, I hate to say this but you really should not be putting words in Gforce Mouth. How do you know what he would say? If my tuner says I will need injectors based on the numbers he sees, i will by all means add injectors to the list. There are 3 local tuners here in Michigan, 1 being Livernois Motorsports. Very big company. All three tuning shops told me I should not need injectors, as well as Jessie, who I never met personally but has never steered my wrong and seems like a great guy. I have also been told by several others that my injectors, the same as the ZR1 can be adjusted to be safe with my mods. on another note, I have also seen some tuners that have said. "You Must have bigger injectors" my personal feeling it they dont have the experience and dont know how to set up the current injectors so they just have the customer buy larger ones because thier lack of knowledge. Anyways, I just though I would drop in and mention that it is not cool to put words into another vendors mouth. (G-Force). As far as HP numbers, I have not seen anyone on any forum list thier Engine HP numbers. Thats what confussed me. All I ever see on the forums and I belong to several is the actual measured HP numbers from a dyno, not a mathmatical number that people have to trig out just to see what you real HP numbers are. one last thing, My tuner has 25 years experience tuning cars and if Jessie was closer to me, he would be my number 1 choice. I dont think you can deny his expertise. Last point I want to make, we are all adults here, it would be nice if you can keep the name calling to yourself, there is no reason for that, Jessie nor myself called you any names, he simply stated facts based on his experience with tuning probably over 1000 CTS V's. if not more. Just talk to what YOU know from experience, not what you think "GForce" may or may not say. No hard feelings man, just chill out.


go to the "other forum" (see tee s vee owners) and you'll find out from the horses mouth (g-force). just search "injector size" threads. i hope we're done here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYzrj2sHYEg

"Added a 2.50" Metco Upper Pulley to the headers/CAI combo. The injectors maxed out at 125% DC on the first run at 537 rwhp (DynoJet). The car had another 20 rwhp in it easily. Tuner had to back it off a little bit so the car can remain drivable until I get ID850's. More videos to come when that happens! Tuned by RPM Motorsports in Garner, NC.

Car has Stainless Works Headers w/Cat-less down pipe, SW X-Pipe, Stock Axle Back exhaust, New Era Performance CAI, Metco 2.50" Upper Pulley, LPE Solid Isolator, Metco 100mm Idler Pulley, 160 T-Stat"


make sure you come tell me how your stock injectors do on monday mike maz. hope you got the added 800+ for those bad boys. lol

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you will need new injectors, Ya JACKA**! LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAyZZoalEaE

thebigjimsho
03-22-13, 01:37 AM
I'm running headers, a 10% overdrive harmonic balancer pulley and a CAI and am on stock injectors. 3 years with no issues...

topend22
03-22-13, 07:41 AM
Talk to my tuner today. He said do NOT buy injectors. He said it the worst thing you can do is buy injectors when you don't need them. He said many variables can be modified first before you go out and buy injectors. So again, I will wait till Monday and if I need injectors I will have them shipped next day air. No problem.

wait4me
03-22-13, 08:12 AM
Well. Sorry to say but I have seen a few tunes made by rpm because the people are having shut down issues and transmissions errors, and the tunes have not been modified to allow for more fuel pressure. So theproblem as I stated, it is a tune error if they can't make it work. Simple as that.

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He is changing some tables in that fuel segment, but they are for the wrong thing that isn't even being used, so it makes no change to the calibration,

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Lol. 33 shops so far can make them work since 2008 so far and more counting as I'm going thru posts... 4 can't... Hmmm

Betiwin
03-22-13, 08:21 AM
Man this really has me thinking. I have been scared into injectors on my LPE 630 kit as so many ppl said I would be in the "danger zone" on a cool day or may be close even on the dyno. LPE says I could be close but still be in spot that is not above 90%. This thread has taught me alot on how the fuel system works on the V. So Jessie what is the average stage one car automatic say 540 RWHP at on stock injector? 85% with tune for fuel pressure changed?

wait4me
03-22-13, 08:33 AM
Low 80s

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You can do the math to get Real injector duty cycle. Maybe the software they are using is reporting it incorrectly.

topend22
03-22-13, 08:40 AM
I found this info. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-performance-mods/217343-cts-v2-fuel-system-warning-important.html

kwilson
03-22-13, 10:18 AM
Thread jack....Jessie what are the torque specs on the strut tower brace on a 2013?

On a side note.....I am kinda in the middle. I installed the LPE 650 kit with ported TB and Blower snout, plugs, wires, SW headers into SW exhaust, D3 CAI and tune. The car put down 607 RWHP and 597 ft.lbs torque on a dyno com.

Anyway, we installed the Bosch 028015187 56 lbs injector or whatever it is and my tuner stated that my duty cycle was above 95% and that I may want to look at a larger injectors. Me being me and not wanting to risk anything I went and bought ID850's and am now around 65% duty cycle. Did I have to have ID850s...no. Do I feel good about it....yes. He had nothing in the injector sale and wanted me to buy fast 85. Plenty of room for growth!!!!

I found the best tuner (IMHO) around me...one that I felt comfortable with and went with it. If I were to take my car to another tuner they would do it differently then he did and different from anyone else.

If I were by Jessie that's where it would have went or perhaps out in CA to D3...hell I even thought about going to Hennessy down in TX but damn I'd have 100k in this thing had I gone that route

My point being everyone tunes differently!!!

Torque specs on strut tower anyone???

topend22
03-28-13, 12:18 AM
stop back peddling. you go run some poor fools afr at 11.9/12.3 (depending on weather and a possible bad batch of gas) and hope they dont fry a ringland. my a/f is set at 11.4 at the time of tune, once winter came it went up to 11.8.(and an additional lb of boost) that is enough reason to go with larger injectors if i had more mods. I'll trust what guys (like g-force) are doing instead of a guy who just wants to be right all the time. you drew first blood, not me.

mike maz has headers and a smaller pulley.(2.3) he will need injectors. mark my words. Stillborn, I "marked your words" and you were correct. I'm am sorry if I doubted you. I DO NEED INJECTORS. My car ran out of injector at 565 on the DYNO. 85 pounders are being next day shipped to my tuner. He could not finish the tune. I'm a big enough man to own up when I'm wrong and I was wrong. Look like car will make 580 to 590 when he can finish the tune with injectors Friday.

kwilson
03-28-13, 08:39 AM
Stillborn, I "marked your words" and you were correct. I'm am sorry if I doubted you. I DO NEED INJECTORS. My car ran out of injector at 565 on the DYNO. 85 pounders are being next day shipped to my tuner. He could not finish the tune. I'm a big enough man to own up when I'm wrong and I was wrong. Look like car will make 580 to 590 when he can finish the tune with injectors Friday.

580 to 590 are some sweet numbers.....congratulations on your build!!!!

wait4me
03-28-13, 09:44 AM
Have your tuner email me, and I can give him the instructions on how to add more pressure to your tune. It isn't hard...

c55asleep
03-28-13, 10:28 AM
Have your tuner email me, and I can give him the instructions on how to add more pressure to your tune. It isn't hard...

Jesse, just a question. You can add more pressure via voltage if I understand correctly but wouldn't the
Flow become an issue and the reason why going to bigger injectors.

wait4me
03-28-13, 10:48 AM
When you up fuel pressure via voltage and or PWM, the flow capability "which is HP limit" of the injectors are increased.


The fuel pump Volume "the amount of fuel it can possibly flow" is not a problem at this horsepower level either, and changing injectors does not effect this limit either.


The Fuel pump driver can also learn and does learn.

It has a duty cycle and a "TRIM LEARN" system just like the fuel system on our cars have.

So, when tuning, it is a must to log this information. Which most people do not do.


An example of what happens, and why tuning changes sometimes for customers that are tuned at shops.

Say the tuner has the car on the dyno, and does a change to something fuel related or adds a part that adds horsepower.

The cars Fuel pump driver had previously stored a value in its trim settings that at full throttle, it needed 72% duty cycle on the pumps to maintain 65psi that was requested during the whole run from 2000-6000rpm. As the car had been driven, it has learned that it needs to do that to maintain that pressure as commanded vs actual.

So, fast forward to you adding hard parts, which lets just say 80rwhp.

Well now, the fuel volume needed to maintain the 65 psi has changed drastically, so the fpdm has to relearn what it needs to do via pwm to achieve a steady fuel flow at that psi for the new mods.

What most people will do though, is they will tune the file based on what they see before the trims have been reset or relearn. "You can do this with a tech 2"

So for example, customers car did a pull, it was 11.1 air fuel, the fuel pressure commanded was 65, actual was 57. Duty cycle on the fuel pump driver was about 75% because it didn't still yet register that it needed to change the trim values. So you get done tuning, you had the fuel set at 11.4 air fuel. Well now, you let the car out of the shop and customer drives home. As the customer continues to drive, the fuel pump driver module is still learning and has now moved the trims to make it close to actual commanded again. Which in this case was 65. So, now real duty cycle of the pump is 88% to achieve that pressure. However now the customer car is richer than it was when it left, "or leaner depending on what way the trims went" after it has learnt what it needed to do to be back to commanded vs actual.

The same system is in your transmission, also in your engine for fuel trims, It is just a learning thing that makes things closer to actual values that are being commanded.

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So, I guess it is going to rest at this.

Tuner error is the cause for not being able to supply enough fuel..

Some tuners can make stock injectors work just fine for 600 and less hp.
Some cant. I can live with that...

Stillborn
03-28-13, 03:06 PM
it's nice to watch mickey mouse squirm with his other worldly mindset. in reality you can NOT make smaller injectors flow more fuel no matter how much pressure you add. what a bozo. if that was the case they would make universal injectors adjusted with line pressure. but they dont, they come in flow sized increments. mickey mouse eat crow you "know-it all" cliff clavin.

i just went back to pg1 and how glorious it feels to be right. this thread should should have a trophy next to it instead of stars. lmao.

mike glad to see you are making good power, no need to feel any which way about this thread as you were in the learning curve,...
mickey mouse should have know better but his ego runs his mouth. ego is the cock blocker of all wisdom.

Hocky
03-28-13, 05:31 PM
it's nice to watch mickey mouse squirm with his other worldly mindset. in reality you can NOT make smaller injectors flow more fuel no matter how much pressure you add.

uh... injector flow rate is 100% dependent on the pressure behind them.

topend22
03-28-13, 06:07 PM
Bought 85 pounders

Stillborn
03-28-13, 07:38 PM
uh... injector flow rate is 100% dependent on the pressure behind them..

the restriction is the injectors themselves, not the pressure in the line. hence the 90+% rule.
once you hit the margin of safety you will need to increase injector size. end of story.
why ask more from the fuel system (stress the pumps) when it will all work synergistically with larger injectors?

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Bought 85 pounders

did you get the ID850'S? ( Injector Dynamics )

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topend22
03-28-13, 08:09 PM
No, I went with Bosh or Siemens I think. I left it up to my tuner on what ones he like to use. Not really sure exactly. He is a vet respectable LS tuner in Michigan. His name is Dr. Phil

kwilson
03-28-13, 11:15 PM
.




did you get the ID850'S? ( Injector Dynamics )

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Hard to beat the data that comes with the ID's

ExpatMedic
03-29-13, 12:23 AM
Wait4Me is correct regarding this topic.

Stillborn
03-29-13, 01:39 PM
if he was then the dozens of top tuners would still be using stock injectors. 90% are all using id850's when making 14+psi. you cant re-write the script because you dont want to unlearn bad/false information. i think i made my point. enjoy the truth & beware the lies.

Wannago
03-29-13, 01:59 PM
Either way, I'm glad I went with the ID850s. Small price to pay for peace of mind.

BlownV
03-29-13, 04:37 PM
Lot's of hostility but the fact is that this entire conversation is elementary level physics. Your fuel injectors provide a mass flow rate of a liquid into the combustion chamber. Mass flow rate is a combination of velocity, density and cross sectional area (m/s X kg/m^3 X m^2). Asssuming that your fluid is incompressible, good enough for liquids at these low pressures, then density is no longer a variable. All you have left is velocity and area. Velocity in this case is generated by the pressure differential between the fuel pump and combustion chamber. So, if you want more fuel you can increase pressure OR increase flow area OR both. Injector 'size' is the cross sectional flow area in this equation and velocity is equivalent to your fuel pressure in terms of linear relationship...this is why injectors are rated at a specific pressure. If you need to get more fuel in the combustion chamber to maintain your desired AFR then you can increase the fuel pressure alone to do so as long as the rest of the fuel system components can keep up (think KB BAP). If you get the point that the fuel pressure cannot be increased then you need larger injectors. Or if you would prefer to not increase the fuel pressure to place excess strain on the pump/etc then you need larger injectors. I guess what I don't understand here is that I did not see anyone stating what FP is needed to keep the stock injectors and support 600hp and can all the other components handle that without concern?

topend22
03-29-13, 10:47 PM
Yes, the cars other components can handle every bit of 600 HP no problem. My car is done and if a monster. everything looks and sounds stock till you get on it and all hell breaks loose. She made 607 RWHP and 627 of Torque Un-Corrected. Corrected it made 585 RWHP and 606 Torque. 16 PSI of boost. Id runs just perfect. Love the new power. I hope I can do a 10.99 1/4. Before these mods I did 11.77 on stock tires. Yes, its an Automatic.

BlownV
03-30-13, 06:12 PM
Maybe my post was not clear. I was asking if the other components in the fuel system were capable of supporting 600hp while maintaining stock injector size....in other words can the pump support the increase in pressure? What is the required voltage to reach this? What is the draw on the pump under high load at this voltage such that you won't be slowly burning out your pump? How accurate is the stock fpr above the intended operational range? Can all the fittings take the increased pressure? I have no doubts that the other components in the drivetrain can take 600hp. That was not my intent. I'm sure the gm engineers designed everything to a minimal 1.2 fos and probably closer to 1.5-2.0 for critical components. I'm not sure why you rattled off a bunch of timeslip information....I don't think this post is about measuring who has the longest... If that is where you want to go then I'm sure plenty of people on here can jump in and one up you...myself included with my 9.89 timeslip in my old car which was only a 2.0 liter.

topend22
03-31-13, 11:00 PM
Maybe my post was not clear. I was asking if the other components in the fuel system were capable of supporting 600hp while maintaining stock injector size....in other words can the pump support the increase in pressure? What is the required voltage to reach this? What is the draw on the pump under high load at this voltage such that you won't be slowly burning out your pump? How accurate is the stock fpr above the intended operational range? Can all the fittings take the increased pressure? I have no doubts that the other components in the drivetrain can take 600hp. That was not my intent. I'm sure the gm engineers designed everything to a minimal 1.2 fos and probably closer to 1.5-2.0 for critical components. I'm not sure why you rattled off a bunch of timeslip information....I don't think this post is about measuring who has the longest... If that is where you want to go then I'm sure plenty of people on here can jump in and one up you...myself included with my 9.89 timeslip in my old car which was only a 2.0 liter.. I have no idea on the components you mentioned. Others have much more power without making those component changes since 2009 with no issues. I just was saying I hope I can get into the 10's that's all, no doubt there are plenty faster then I..

kwilson
04-01-13, 08:53 AM
. I have no idea on the components you mentioned. Others have much more power without making those component changes since 2009 with no issues. I just was saying I hope I can get into the 10's that's all, no doubt there are plenty faster then I..

Mike,

Congratulations on the car!!!

Wannago
04-01-13, 09:38 AM
. I have no idea on the components you mentioned. Others have much more power without making those component changes since 2009 with no issues. I just was saying I hope I can get into the 10's that's all, no doubt there are plenty faster then I..

Hey, it's your thread Mike; you cited a target ET in your first post and there is nothing wrong with posting a target ET in a subsequent post (even though I have a 9.88 timeslip in my old car that was only a 1.0 litre). :halo:

Congrats on the numbers.

BlownV
04-01-13, 10:01 AM
I'm sorry...I guess I misunderstood the meat of the argument that was going on from post #3 to post #46 concerning fuel pressure vs. injector size where I saw a lot of 'he said' 'she said' 'my tuner said this' 'well my tuner said this' arguing where no one besides wait4me actually wanted to take the time to crunch the numbers and provide some useful information which is what the purpose of the forum is all about. Congrats on the car and I hope you can get into the 10's with it. Definitely going to want DRs though.

Guessing there was some miscommunication here since based on your last post you were only posting numbers and timeslip info as an update to your dyno tune rather than as a response to what I was asking in the previous post...which is what I took it as at first. In other words, sounded like you were trying to say 'shut up, my car is fast.' Apologies if that wasn't the case.

I am still curious to hear information about our fuel pumps though. Can someone chime in on what they can reliably support or is it just best to go off the manufacturer's data sheet? I am seeing guys run 700-750 bhp on the stock pump but curious how much that is overdriving the design.

Torxila
04-01-13, 04:28 PM
No, I went with Bosh or Siemens I think. I left it up to my tuner on what ones he like to use. Not really sure exactly. He is a vet respectable LS tuner in Michigan. His name is Dr. Phil

END OF STORY...PERIOD You made the right choice in chossing Phil. Glad you saw the light!

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MIKE clear your PM inbox buddy.

topend22
04-01-13, 05:19 PM
Just cleared, thanks..

thebigjimsho
04-04-13, 09:57 AM
it's nice to watch mickey mouse squirm with his other worldly mindset. in reality you can NOT make smaller injectors flow more fuel no matter how much pressure you add. what a bozo. if that was the case they would make universal injectors adjusted with line pressure. but they dont, they come in flow sized increments. mickey mouse eat crow you "know-it all" cliff clavin.

i just went back to pg1 and how glorious it feels to be right. this thread should should have a trophy next to it instead of stars. lmao.

mike glad to see you are making good power, no need to feel any which way about this thread as you were in the learning curve,...
mickey mouse should have know better but his ego runs his mouth. ego is the cock blocker of all wisdom.

Funny how the last statement contradicts the rest of the post.

Just an observation...

Stillborn
04-06-13, 12:42 PM
Funny how the last statement contradicts the rest of the post.

Just an observation...

mike was open ended, mickey mouse aka w4m picked a fight, insulted my posts & was hell bent on being right...when in fact he was wrong.
just my observation. :) there is only one winner in a factual argument and that winner was me. from the 1st
post to the last, i stood my ground and emerged victorious. all else (opinions) are just semantics.

CTSV4now
04-10-13, 01:16 PM
Sounds like Phil doesn't know how to alter fuel pressure in his tune, so he goes the larger injector route.

If the customer is happy, then it was a sucessful tune, regardless of the methods used to get the end result.

All this bickering makes me question if I need to get a more expensive car to avoid the childish behavior in this forum.

BlownV
04-10-13, 02:12 PM
CTSV4now...amen

Stillborn
04-10-13, 04:46 PM
Sounds like Phil doesn't know how to alter fuel pressure in his tune, so he goes the larger injector route.

If the customer is happy, then it was a sucessful tune, regardless of the methods used to get the end result.

All this bickering makes me question if I need to get a more expensive car to avoid the childish behavior in this forum.

yah, that should be a reasonable solution. i say, do it! do it! or spell sucessful the right way and you'll be far better off. you c?
i would suggest not belittling yourself to post in such a "childish thread" would be a more mature way to handle it, instead of
pointing out whats wrong instead of whats right. people like you (always whining about others) can never be satisfied by
buying /acquiring new things, its the same thing as taping sandwiches all over your body in an attempt to stop hunger.

thebigjimsho
04-11-13, 03:41 PM
wut.

gOt BoOsT
04-13-13, 11:57 AM
just wasted 30 minutes reading through this bickering and thought id point out o few basic rules of tuning efi...
Injectors can only flow so much fuel before they become unstable/unpredictable (90%+ idc)
You can raise fuel pressure to compensate for too small of injectors, but that only safely works until you hit 90% idc
The fuel pump will loose efficiency the higher the volt draw on the pump and you will run out of fuel up top at some point no matter what you do
You need to datalog in order to know what is happening or your just guessing

Point is, if you want to play, you gotta pay. Dont skip on the basics when trying to modify efi...you need fuel.
Congrats to the op, sounds like you made good power with basic mods.

Stillborn
04-16-13, 12:50 AM
i got tired of being right from the first post. some people need added attention to understand logic.
i'm glad my truth ended up being co-signed,... albeit the truth needs no co-signer.
give me one choice of love, fame, fortune, or truth... and i'll take the truth every time.

dwbowen
05-04-13, 02:15 PM
For Stillborn, you really need to get over your self. W4M has way more knowledge on CTS-V's than you do and is correct in saying that 600 RWHP is possible on stock injectors. Here's the proof. I make 603 RWHP and 587 FT POUNDS torque [14 pounds boost] with my 2012 CTS-V on a DynoJet with a W4M tune with STOCK injectors. A/F ratio 11.3 during pulls on a cold day. BTW, your statement that increased fuel pressure doesn't make for more flow is so wrong. Flow through any injector is increased by added pressure to that injector. It appears that your tuner hasn't the knowledge to make stock injectors work at 600 RWHP and you take that as proof that larger injectors are always required at 600 RWHP.

Stillborn
05-04-13, 11:01 PM
For Stillborn, you really need to get over your self. W4M has way more knowledge on CTS-V's than you do and is correct in saying that 600 RWHP is possible on stock injectors. Here's the proof. I make 603 RWHP and 587 FT POUNDS torque [14 pounds boost] with my 2012 CTS-V on a DynoJet with a W4M tune with STOCK injectors. A/F ratio 11.3 during pulls on a cold day. BTW, your statement that increased fuel pressure doesn't make for more flow is so wrong. Flow through any injector is increased by added pressure to that injector. It appears that your tuner hasn't the knowledge to make stock injectors work at 600 RWHP and you take that as proof that larger injectors are always required at 600 RWHP.

replacing your fuel pumps prematurely is now your worst nightmare. i sure hope they dont fail at wot. lol you got it all figured out w4m fan club member. btw, if my tuner told me he was going to raise my voltage on my pumps to band-aid my need for added fueling, i would tell him to gtfo of my car and leave his shop.

dwbowen
05-05-13, 10:29 AM
You do understand that the Corvette uses the same pumps to fuel 636 HP, same injectors too. GM just raises the voltage. Guess there are a lot of Corvettes out there with failing fuel pumps??? I'd sure like to line our cars up on the strip and show you what stock injectors can do. 125 mph @ 11.09 so far. At 513 RWHP you surely didn't need to spend the money on bigger injectors. But I will say, it can be tuned that way if you want to spend the money.

Stillborn
05-05-13, 11:23 AM
gm also has the proper software and know how. i would not want an outside source (while voiding the warranty) doing any voltage changes to compensate for
a lack of fuel issue. the majority of shops "getting it done" at the track change out the injectors once 90+% dc has been reached....it's been this way across the board (for those that tune) for a long time now. is there another way to skin a cat? i guess so, but i'll be more comfortable with the voltage being unchanged as i've seen (on other forums) some of the best shops frown on such activities. can you get away with it? sure, but you can also get away with murder,...until karma has it's way with you. my car makes the same hp as the zr1 with my mods and has stock injectors with 90% dc at 11.4 afr. any more hp mods and i need injectors as the indicators indicate. =]

PremierJosh
05-06-13, 10:03 PM
We install injectors on all ctsv's we upgrade. I'm not a fan of running parts at max. Truely I prefer to not get over 85% but some get bumped up just over 90% before we go up from 850's.

blaine321
05-06-13, 10:46 PM
Im going to chime in: Ive been modifing cars from Vipers to Mustangs for the last 20 years. YOUR BOTH Right!!! Its a matter of preference. Gt500's owners have been increasing fuel pressure for years via boost a pumps to allow higher limits of stock injectors. The downside is some say it stresses the fuel pumps over time which could lead to engine failure. Tuners have their preferences. Id only increase the voltage to a point.. I dont like to take chances with my luck.

BlownV
05-09-13, 03:30 PM
Ok...so everyone that is arguing on here does realize that the IDC% is seperate from fuel pressure right? As in an IDC of 80% at one fuel pressure equates to a different amount of fuel at a different fuel pressure. This is an over-simiplification but you could run 50% IDC at 40PSI fp and get the same amount of fuel as 100% at 20PSI fp. Stillborn and gotboost either don't understand this or have made the decision that they aren't comfortable increasing the voltage going to their fuel pumps.

----------

ctsv4now, w4m, dwbowen and blaine 321 have all tried to explain this over and over again...I guess it is liking talking to a wall guys. You tried.

Stillborn
05-11-13, 02:38 AM
why are you comparing different size injectors flowing at different rates via pressure? as in doing so you just upended your own debate. thanks.
so you would be happy if a tuner down sized your stock injectors in favor of a higher voltage output? thats the kind of logic we have going on here
folks. you shouldn't look one way down a two way street buddy... you'll get crushed sooner or later. :thehand:

maybe you should try going snorkeling with a swizzle stick and maybe you'll understand the physics of it all. you can breath
at normal capacity with a larger diameter tube (snorkel) vs straining to get air with an instrument not designed for ideal conditions
to get the life saving air you so desperately need. could you survive with that swizzle stick? sure, but for how long?

BlownV
05-11-13, 05:07 PM
Stillborn, thank you for explaining elementary school physics to someone with a PhD in fluid dynamics who works on supersonic projectile aeroballistic design for a living. I am sorry that the majority of discussion and 'facts' stated by people on the forums comes from those who are not educated in the subject they believe they are 'experts' in...but I am not one of those people and that is the only reason I state my profession. I will not provide advice or information on topics that I neither have first hand knowledge of or an understanding of the physics or mechanics behind. I have absolutely no problem carrying on a debate with someone, having a technical conversation, or even simply agreeing to disagree when the other person can actually sit down and crunch the numbers instead of blabbing about over-generalizatons and comparisons to situations which offer no benefit to the conversation.

Based upon your response above, I have no choice but to think that you simply are unable to grasp the concept that half a dozen people in this thread have tried to explain to you time and time again. Statements like 'get crushed sooner or later" or trying to draw a one to one comparison to a human being pulling vacuum through a pipe does not provide any benefit to anyone on the forum in terms of technical knowledge. If you go back to my original posts on this thread you will see that I was asking questions about the voltage ranges for our fuel pumps, the safe ranges to operate in, questions about a kbbap, if our injectors were the same as the Zr1, and questions about the safe ranges for the rest of fuel system equipment (FPR, etc).

All that aside, we all understand that you went the route of getting larger fuel injectors and not raising your fuel pressure. That was your choice. And that is one way to get the job done. No one is arguing that...at all. That method will give you the greatest potential when you do more mods down the line. You do not need to defend your actions by making negative statements about the alternative method. All everyone is trying to say is that the injectors can be made to flow more fuel by increasing the fuel pressure, maintaining a safe IDC% and maintaining the same AFR. And you are only increasing fuel pressure above the intended range of the pump during WOT. I also have no doubts that the pump can handle another 10-20% in voltage and therefore provide another 50-100hp of potential just in fuel pressure increases...I doubt the pump was engineered with a FOS of less than 1.2.

Stillborn
05-11-13, 06:41 PM
just for the record i have stock injectors at 90% dc. at 11.4 afr and 17* of timing. any more hp mods and injectors will be needed. but this was never about me, it was in fact about the op saying he would 'NOT' need injectors via the advice of w4m. i was only informing the op he would in fact need injectors and a voltage increase was the jerry rig way...his tuner opted for injectors as the majority of tuners who understand "fueling" and all that implies will attest to going that route. i dont want to take another bow, but since you called me back for yet another encore i will. gratzie, gratzie.

and you're right about another 50-100hp available on the stock injectors, all us guys with just an upper pulley and cai are living proof of said increase...
but once you add headers or more psi to said equation, you WILL NEED INJECTORS.

BlownV
05-11-13, 07:06 PM
You said you have stock injectors at 90%idc making roughly 630hp, correct? Did your tuner raise the fuel pressure as well?

Purevil
05-11-13, 09:44 PM
I know I am close to my comfort limits on my stock injectors at 550whp, with my 2.55" upper and New Era CAI. I agree that you can sadly up pressure as we do with imports, but it's more of a band-aide than a fix. If it were so safe GM would have just left the same pump in the ZR1 also, or those with return style systems would just use FPU's to up their pressure to trick the injectors to more spray.

BlownV
05-13-13, 10:35 AM
BAP's have been around for decades and were not started by the import car scene. I understand completely that boosting the fuel pressure is the not the 'ideal' way of going for a daily driven car and from GM's perspective it would be dumb because they have to plan for the worst possible idiot to be driving the car. The entire point of this debate was to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat and depending on your application and budget as well as intended future mods, going larger on injectors may not be necessary. I had 1250cc injectors on my last vehicle and chose not to boost the fuel pressure bc of its' specific application. If stillborn is running 90% IDC on his stock injectors at stock FP and making ~630bhp then it would follow that a 10% bump on fuel pressure voltage (well within the limits of the pump) would give him another 60hp on stock injectors. That 10% bump on voltage, only being applied at WOT and in the upper RPM band, is not going to break the pump. And that is the only point that w4m was trying to make from my viewpoint.

Stillborn
05-17-13, 03:39 PM
this should make it simple. we all agree that after 90% idc is reached, adding larger injectors would be the proper method of attaining more fuel, not adding more voltage draw to the stock pumps. a cai, and 2.5 upper (13psi) is the limit for stock injectors as the 90% wall is immediately hit, now if you add headers or more boost to that equation then injectors are needed. that was my entire point and there is nothing more to add.