: Installed LS7 Clutch, Flywheel, etc. - rock HARD pedal...



jclayc
03-13-13, 09:04 PM
2/3 through installing a LS7 clutch, flywheel and LS7 slave in my 05. No big problems during the process. After re-installing the trans, driveshaft & shifter, I pushed the clutch pedal and it is hard. I mean, zero movement. The slave is not connected at all and the bleeder is open.

When I turn the driveshaft by hand, the wheels turn at the back and the rear trans yolk turns too. When torquing the pressure plate bolts, the engine turned over, so I know from the pressure plate forward is turning. That says to me that I've got a problem with the slave or the way the two are mated - I think? Sliding the trans back onto the engine went ok, since I have a fancy trans jack (a must have) so I didn't feel anything go wrong during that process.

Or, of course, I could be prematurely judging things and should just bleed the clutch, etc. and check again, but I seem to have the opposite problem of most people.

Thanks for your help!

darkman
03-13-13, 10:00 PM
I found this
http://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-modifications/1448303-help-hard-clutch-pedal.html
http://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1485505-help-rock-hard-clutch-pedal.html

jclayc
03-13-13, 10:48 PM
thanks, I hooked the slave back up and no change. From those links, there's one saying it's a misaligned clutch fork, another saying it's a problem with the line between the master cylinder and clutch slave...

the misaligned clutch fork sounds possible, which means pulling everything back apart and re-installing the slave/throwout bearing.

darkman
03-13-13, 10:58 PM
Upon re-reading your first post - if the condition exists when the line is not hooked to the slave it would seem the problem has to involve the pedal and/or master cylinder since the pedal is not actually trying to disengage the clutch. Or am I missing something?

jclayc
03-13-13, 11:02 PM
i've tried it both with and without the ls7 slave hooked to the clutch master and the hard pedal is the same... I didn't think I messed with the linkage down there but perhaps it's something binding?

darkman
03-13-13, 11:09 PM
The clutch pedal is an assembly with busings and it apparently can get in a bind based on the service manual which always list it on the trouble shooting charts. Another possibilty is that the rod that the pedal pushes to actuate the master clutch cylinder may be misaligned.

NC-V
03-13-13, 11:10 PM
Are you positive you have the quick connector between the master and slave plugged back in all the way? That connector acts like a quick connect air fitting, when the other half isn't connected, it won't flow any fluid and this is exactly what your problem sounds like. If you just installed a new slave cylinder the pedal should push right to the floor and stay there most likely. It can be a pain in the butt to get that quick connector pushed in all the way, but the clip needs to seat all the way and the "shoulder" of the male connector should be flush with the end of the female connector. If not, it may not allow fluid flow and cause your hard pedal.

jclayc
03-13-13, 11:22 PM
ha - NC-V gets a cookie - tugged at the line and it came apart. once securely re-attached, the pedal goes to the floor... whew

NC-V
03-13-13, 11:29 PM
Bleed that bad boy and enjoy!

jclayc
03-14-13, 12:26 PM
Related question: I put some grease on the input shaft when installing. Thinking about it, that's going to sling grease on the clutch, etc. as soon as I turn the engine over. Worth pulling the trans, pressure plate, and clutch to clean it off before starting for the first time?

darkman
03-14-13, 01:16 PM
I think it depends on how much, and what type of grease. See item 4 in: http://www.exedyusa.com/multimedia/specsheets/InstallInstructions.pdf

jclayc
03-14-13, 02:04 PM
I used "drum/disc break bearing grease", dark red stuff, which is supposed to be high temp. I'd say I put a medium amount, maybe verging on heavy. I'm paranoid enough about it that I'm probably going to pull everything back apart (ugh).

NC-V
03-14-13, 10:55 PM
As long as it wasn't globbing off the input shaft you will probably be fine. If you just put a film on you should be ok, but if you packed the splines full then you may have some contamination issues.

WesH8398
03-18-13, 12:31 AM
OP - would love to hear your feelings on the results once you get things put back together and get her back on the road. This has been on my to do list ever since I started reading about the dual mass issues we have, and troubleshooting to realize that this is probably the cause of the vibrations that drive me absolutely crazy. Did you have any "issues" that you were trying to remedy with this swap, or was it completely voluntary? Also, did you go with a lightweight flywheel, or the original ls7?

jclayc
03-18-13, 01:40 PM
With about 40k miles on it, I developed a small leak between my bellhousing and the engine which I figured was a leaky rear seal. To get to it, I had to take the trans, clutch, etc. out anyway so I figured I'd do the clutch upgrade at the same time I replace the rear cover and seal. I bought my LS7 slave from O'Reiley's but the LS7 clutch, pressure plate and 19lb RAM flywheel from Scroggin Dickey.

I got everything buttoned back up on Saturday and have been out driving a few times. My first impression is that this is the way the car should have always been... it's hard to imagine it being any different. Biggest difference: hit the gas and instead of waiting a beat or two before getting revs, it revs immediately. I don't know that the car "feels lighter" like people have said but the way the clutch is set up (engages really low to the floor) means it's tough not to really launch the sucker from 1st. First and reverse have super short clutch travel but all other gears seem to be ok. The only problem I've run into is that, when coming out of the accellerator from 4th or above, RPMs drop to zero and the engine dies unless I give it a little rev. I think that's because I have a W4M tune that may have set my idle a little low(?)

Other thoughts:

If you're doing this alone like I did, buy a good trans jack - I could not have finished the job without it.

The need for a speed bleeder is overrated and so is the difficulty bleeding the clutch. The bleeder is not tough to get to and, with a 90 degree rubber fitting over the bleeder outlet, you can bleed it yourself w/ a suction.

I went ahead and removed the driver's side header to give me more room to work.

Don't grease the input shaft *L*

The first time I slid the trans back into the engine, it took one try and about 5 minutes. The second time, it took 6 hours - go figure.

odla
03-18-13, 01:59 PM
Good stuff to know. Thanks

WesH8398
03-18-13, 05:02 PM
With about 40k miles on it, I developed a small leak between my bellhousing and the engine which I figured was a leaky rear seal. To get to it, I had to take the trans, clutch, etc. out anyway so I figured I'd do the clutch upgrade at the same time I replace the rear cover and seal. I bought my LS7 slave from O'Reiley's but the LS7 clutch, pressure plate and 19lb RAM flywheel from Scroggin Dickey.

I got everything buttoned back up on Saturday and have been out driving a few times. My first impression is that this is the way the car should have always been... it's hard to imagine it being any different. Biggest difference: hit the gas and instead of waiting a beat or two before getting revs, it revs immediately. I don't know that the car "feels lighter" like people have said but the way the clutch is set up (engages really low to the floor) means it's tough not to really launch the sucker from 1st. First and reverse have super short clutch travel but all other gears seem to be ok. The only problem I've run into is that, when coming out of the accellerator from 4th or above, RPMs drop to zero and the engine dies unless I give it a little rev. I think that's because I have a W4M tune that may have set my idle a little low(?)

Other thoughts:

If you're doing this alone like I did, buy a good trans jack - I could not have finished the job without it.

The need for a speed bleeder is overrated and so is the difficulty bleeding the clutch. The bleeder is not tough to get to and, with a 90 degree rubber fitting over the bleeder outlet, you can bleed it yourself w/ a suction.

I went ahead and removed the driver's side header to give me more room to work.

Don't grease the input shaft *L*

The first time I slid the trans back into the engine, it took one try and about 5 minutes. The second time, it took 6 hours - go figure.

Awesome info, thanks a lot. I'll be bookmarking this into my "need to k now" stuff for when I get to this job. I'm not going to have the time to do it myself, and I have a very reliable and reasonably priced mechanic ($50/hour, which is CHEAP for my neck of the woods). He's also younger and into reading up on jobs like this on the forums and stuff before he does them - which I like. He's read the links I've sent him on this topic and quoted me $350 cash to get the job done. To me, it's worth it to have done by him rather than me learning as I go and taking waaaay longer than he would (not to mention the mistakes I might make, tools I might be missing, etc, etc). I'll do lots of stuff on my own, but I'm not comfortable doing a job like this.

Anyway - great info. From what I've read and been warned about with the RAM flywheel (or any LW flywheel) is that what you're experiencing is definitely a potential issue for anyone that does this and doesn't have/get a tune to compensate for the drastic reduction in rotating mass. I spoke with a guy from East Coast Performance (he's on LS1 forums) and he warned me of exactly this. I don't have a tune, and wont be interested in getting one done since the cost of the parts and labour (I'm canadian, that's how we spell it! lol) is going to be my budget - no more. So while I've been trying to save the $$ for this, I've been wrestling with the choice of going with the RAM and taking my chances that it wont stall out (I've asked around and many did NOT have this issue, while a few did), or just going with the whole GM setup (which is still lighter than ours).

If you wouldn't mind, would you keep me/us posted as you drive the car more, and the new-ness factor wears off a bit? :thumbsup:

Dan_Gurney
03-21-13, 02:26 AM
Awesome info, thanks a lot. I'll be bookmarking this into my "need to k now" stuff for when I get to this job. I'm not going to have the time to do it myself, and I have a very reliable and reasonably priced mechanic ($50/hour, which is CHEAP for my neck of the woods). He's also younger and into reading up on jobs like this on the forums and stuff before he does them - which I like. He's read the links I've sent him on this topic and quoted me $350 cash to get the job done. To me, it's worth it to have done by him rather than me learning as I go and taking waaaay longer than he would (not to mention the mistakes I might make, tools I might be missing, etc, etc). I'll do lots of stuff on my own, but I'm not comfortable doing a job like this.

Anyway - great info. From what I've read and been warned about with the RAM flywheel (or any LW flywheel) is that what you're experiencing is definitely a potential issue for anyone that does this and doesn't have/get a tune to compensate for the drastic reduction in rotating mass. I spoke with a guy from East Coast Performance (he's on LS1 forums) and he warned me of exactly this. I don't have a tune, and wont be interested in getting one done since the cost of the parts and labour (I'm canadian, that's how we spell it! lol) is going to be my budget - no more. So while I've been trying to save the $$ for this, I've been wrestling with the choice of going with the RAM and taking my chances that it wont stall out (I've asked around and many did NOT have this issue, while a few did), or just going with the whole GM setup (which is still lighter than ours).

If you wouldn't mind, would you keep me/us posted as you drive the car more, and the new-ness factor wears off a bit? :thumbsup:

I have been running the RAM flywheel with no tune for awhile and it runs great, no stalling issues at all. It seems like some of the talk on the forums says their may be problems with a light flywheel and a cam (but then again that might be forum talk after a number of us with them had no issues.) Maybe one day i can put a nice lumpy cam in and tell you better.

lollygagger8
03-21-13, 09:45 AM
I for one am very grateful to have a remote line. I don't have to get under the car, and it's nice that I don't have to be triple jointed in order to get to the stock bleeder.

I didn't have a trans jack, but I had a helluva time getting the trans mated back up with the engine. That was the worst part of the whole deal.

If you are worried about the grease, you could always take that flywheel cover piece off and spray some brake-kleen up in there and that would probably take off the film (if any)

Hopefully you used this badass writeup..... :lildevil:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/181141-monster-clutch-install.html

jclayc
03-21-13, 09:50 AM
yep, that Monster Clutch install thread was the most helpful online... thanks!

and I did end up pulling the trans back out just to wipe off the grease... glad I did

WesH8398
03-21-13, 04:48 PM
I have been running the RAM flywheel with no tune for awhile and it runs great, no stalling issues at all. It seems like some of the talk on the forums says their may be problems with a light flywheel and a cam (but then again that might be forum talk after a number of us with them had no issues.) Maybe one day i can put a nice lumpy cam in and tell you better.

And herein lies my dilemma. Last year sometime, I had a thread going (here or ls1) about who's had these issues and who hasn't. I'd say the majority said the LW FW was no prob withOUT having to do a tune. Others said the LW FW was fine, bu neglected to report that they ran a tuned vehicle. Then others reported stalling issues with the LW FW and a mixture of other mods (from stock, to cammed, to maggied).
One things almost for sure... If it comes to a roll of the dice, I will lose. lol When it comes to things like this for me, if it can go wrong, it usually does. Thus, I'm having a hard time deciding.

rand49er
03-21-13, 05:48 PM
And herein lies my dilemma. Last year sometime, I had a thread going (here or ls1) about who's had these issues and who hasn't. I'd say the majority said the LW FW was no prob withOUT having to do a tune. Others said the LW FW was fine, bu neglected to report that they ran a tuned vehicle. Then others reported stalling issues with the LW FW and a mixture of other mods (from stock, to cammed, to maggied).
One things almost for sure... If it comes to a roll of the dice, I will lose. lol When it comes to things like this for me, if it can go wrong, it usually does. Thus, I'm having a hard time deciding.When I first did the LW FW (UUC), my car was tuned with the OEM FW. I had no problems at all with the UUC FW. I've subsequently gone to the LS9 kit and also have no issues.

Wes, are you running the stock tune and are you saying that there could be problems going to the LW FW without being tuned afterward?

WesH8398
03-21-13, 07:11 PM
Wes, are you running the stock tune and are you saying that there could be problems going to the LW FW without being tuned afterward?

Precisely, my friend. Thanks for offering your experiences!

rand49er
03-21-13, 07:19 PM
Precisely, my friend. Thanks for offering your experiences!I wonder if there's a difference between the LS6 and the LS2 with regard to this. Guess I'd think it would be more likely with the LS6 and its high-strung nature, whereas the LS2 can use its slightly greater displacement to achieve the "400 hp" peak rating thus isn't tweaked as much. Just guessing, though.

jclayc
03-21-13, 10:44 PM
I didn't expect to have a stalling issue at all (with out a cam) but I do... so the only other thing involved would be my mail order tune(?) if so, it's time for a good tune but, in the meantime, I'm thinking about re-installing my OEM ECU to see what happens...

WesH8398
03-22-13, 12:29 AM
I didn't expect to have a stalling issue at all (with out a cam) but I do... so the only other thing involved would be my mail order tune(?) if so, it's time for a good tune but, in the meantime, I'm thinking about re-installing my OEM ECU to see what happens...

Do you have a Maggie or any other major mods? If not, I would REALLY like to see the results of that little experiment. If you decide to try swapping the OEM ECU in there, please let me know what happens. I'd imagine you'd need to go through a few drive cycles to be sure that the "results" are reliable though...just a thought.

jclayc
03-23-13, 08:48 PM
Interesting... I had my VSS and reverse solenoid wires crossed my past 2 test drives (no big deal) and had stalling. This AM, I corrected the wiring and didn't have any stalling issues. Perhaps it's because the ECU learned a little bit more or the VSS has something to do with signaling the shut off.

Only engine mods are a FAST 92 intake & 90mm throttle body - no internals, heads, cam, blower, etc.

izcain
03-24-13, 02:10 AM
Is your 90mm tb a ls2 one? or a different one?

WesH8398
03-25-13, 06:35 PM
Interesting... I had my VSS and reverse solenoid wires crossed my past 2 test drives (no big deal) and had stalling. This AM, I corrected the wiring and didn't have any stalling issues. Perhaps it's because the ECU learned a little bit more or the VSS has something to do with signaling the shut off. .

Sorry, just making sure I'm following... You HAVEN'T swapped the OEM-tuned ECU in yet, right? So even with the W4M tune, you're no longer having stalling issues now that the VSS/Reverse wires aren't crossed anymore...right? Have you had it out for any more rides?

jclayc
03-25-13, 06:40 PM
Correct, I have not swapped in the OEM ECU and my stalling issue seems to be solved.

With the W4M tune in my first two rides out I had my VSS wire crossed w/ the reverse solenoid lock out. (No speedo working during this time.) During those 2 rides, I had stalling coming out of 4th or above into neutral. Before trying the OEM ECU, I figured I'd connect the VSS and reverse soleniod correctly and put a few more miles on it. I swapped the wires to where they're supposed to be and, when I was out, the stalling problem was gone. W4M ECU still in.

WesH8398
03-25-13, 10:12 PM
Well, if you happen to swap the OEM-tuned ECM in there anyway, report back with results please. Be curious to see if any issues arise.

Jeff James
03-27-13, 12:48 PM
I just spent some time on LS! tech and "Holy Crap" is all I can say about the T-O spacer issue. Did you go with the New T-O for any particular reason?. Everything I have read on THIS forum is that We DO need to use the spacer if using the OE V-1 T-O. Please someone chime in here. I just got a new ,Yes NEW, LS7 C&F for 100 bucks and want to put this in soon. I also have seen the bleeders in different lengths and this is the first thread where someone said We don't need them. Perhaps a short one is the way to go.
Thanks Guys

jclayc
03-27-13, 01:18 PM
I think the spacer is needed if you use the old slave instead of a new LS7 slave. I used the LS7 slave and didn't need a spacer.

?Want to buy a spacer? *L*

WesH8398
03-28-13, 03:25 PM
I just spent some time on LS! tech and "Holy Crap" is all I can say about the T-O spacer issue. Did you go with the New T-O for any particular reason?. Everything I have read on THIS forum is that We DO need to use the spacer if using the OE V-1 T-O. Please someone chime in here. I just got a new ,Yes NEW, LS7 C&F for 100 bucks and want to put this in soon. I also have seen the bleeders in different lengths and this is the first thread where someone said We don't need them. Perhaps a short one is the way to go.
Thanks Guys

The spacer is only necessary if you try to use an ls2/6 slave cylinder with the ls7 clutch package. From all that I read, you don't want to bother screwing around with the spacer and ls2/6 slave. You're going to be in there anyway, so replacing the slave would make sense, and the ls7 slave is only $90 from O'reilly.

Jeff James
03-29-13, 11:15 PM
Thanx Wes, I am reusing the LS2 T-O as I found a screaming deal on a Katech Spacer (Thanx Clay).
No offense intended but You couldn't pay me to use an O'Reilly piece or any other aftermarket T-O.

NC-V
03-30-13, 06:46 PM
LS7 clutch setup with LS7 slave should not need a spacer, but always measure to be sure. And the LS7 slave ordered from Oreilly auto is from the same manufacturer as OEM.