: Bore heads for larger headbolts or stud/insert ?



stoveguyy
03-01-13, 11:24 AM
Local shop use larger headbolts and drills/taps block to accept them. Enlarges holes in head to fit. Did not say what they do for alignment dowels? Seems to me dowels are pretty thin wall? Says bolts are "custom"? I think they are just sourced from another brand/make vehicle? If GM went with simple threaded bolt holes in block, what's wrong with tapping the next size larger? Ya, I know there is a limit to bolt diameter?

Ranger
03-01-13, 11:51 AM
Nothing. That's essentially what "Bigserts" are and what Jake's studs are as well. Not sure about CCC's, but I suspect they are as well. It's not so much the diameter as much as the coarser thread pitch.

P.S.
I believe the same holds true for Norms NS300L inserts.

stoveguyy
03-01-13, 12:17 PM
A big sert has larger OD threads than a standard sert but still uses stock headbolts? The studs I see here are stepped? Larger diameter into block but standard diameter up thru head? I was wondering about how much clearance work u can do on head thru holes? Not many folks here talk about enlarging head thru holes

Submariner409
03-01-13, 01:46 PM
Don't try to bore out the cylinder head bolt holes to accept larger bolts. There are very good reasons why GM, Cadillac, Jake, Tim, Joe, Norm, TimeFastener, and a host of others make and use the proper studs and inserts.

RippyPartsDept
03-01-13, 01:46 PM
Don't try to bore out the cylinder head bolt holes to accept larger bolts. There are very good reasons why GM, Cadillac, Jake, Tim, Joe, Norm, TimeFastener, and a host of others make and use the proper studs and inserts.
....................... :yeah:

stoveguyy
03-01-13, 02:33 PM
I know the head thru hole is bigger than bolt. Bolt is M11. Is hole 12mm? I am not planning on trying larger bolts. Just reporting on local shops process.

Ranger
03-01-13, 04:05 PM
A big sert has larger OD threads than a standard sert but still uses stock headbolts?
Correct.



The studs I see here are stepped? Larger diameter into block but standard diameter up thru head?
Correct again.



I was wondering about how much clearance work u can do on head thru holes? Not many folks here talk about enlarging head thru holes
The holes through the head? No need for that. The gripping is done at the block threads. Those are the threads that failed. Those are the threads that are made larger and coarser. There is simply no reason (or advantage that I can think of) for a larger diameter bolt or stud through the head.

stoveguyy
03-01-13, 04:26 PM
The shop does over counter fix or drive in-turn key work. He says they do in car jobs so they must be handy.

RippyPartsDept
03-01-13, 04:40 PM
so they must be handy.

or sloppy/cut corners

Submariner409
03-01-13, 05:00 PM
The shop is mistaken - No such Northstar block work as "over the counter" or "turnkey" - too many hoops to jump through.

Studs and inserts remove the failed/corroded bolt threads, replace them with threaded steel parts ..................

Here - see if you can figure out what an "insert" really does, then what block studs do .................

http://www.huhnsolutions.com/

http://www.carrollcustomcadillac.com/Pages/default.aspx

stoveguyy
03-01-13, 10:49 PM
They said they can do ANY repair. U bring in motor alone. They fix it. Or u can use ur motor as core and they give u another. That is what I meant by over the counter. Turnkey means u drop off car.

mmidyette
03-02-13, 01:44 AM
Just a guess, but, if you dramatically change the diameter of the section of the bolt (non threaded area) that needs to expand and contract as the engine goes through its heat cycles, will you not also have to recalculate the initial torque values during installation to allow for this change? If you try to put a larger diameter bolt section up through to the head, I think that it would "stretch" differently than those selected by the GM engineers, causing new problems.

Ranger
03-02-13, 12:18 PM
:noidea: BTSOM! Now you're getting into engineering and metallurgy. WAAAY beyond my knowledge.

Manic Mechanic
03-03-13, 09:27 PM
I've recently repaired my Northstar car using Carrol's stud kit. I haven't mentioned it yet but fitting the heads down onto the installed studs was a PITA. I've been "handy" with metal objects since I was a kid and do this for a living quite well but despite all my best efforts the studs weren't "perfectly vertical" (Tim Carroll) after free hand drilling just like he does in his videos. Most were close enough but a few on each side required some minor bending with the hoist's jack handle slipped over them for leverage. Even after all were pretty strait up it was still next to impossible to get the heads down. Every time I got them somewhat started there were metal shavings being developed by the studs scraping against the head holes. So after several attempts and some thought I started drilling out the head itself to make more room for the stud to pass through. First drill was actually the same diameter of the studs and it removed some material in spots but not all the way through. I attribute this to corrosion and shifting of the metal over the 130K in service under pressure. The head still wouldn't slide down as cleanly as I like so I went the next 1/64th over. Same thing so I went another 64th and that was enough to get the head to slide onto the deck reasonably, it could be set down and lifted with a slight drag and wiggle. I just got it running last week and have only put about 130 miles on it with only one short WOT blast through a yellow light this morning but so far so good. At the 1/32 level of head hole enlargement there was not an issue and the stud nuts and washers still blanketed the hole. It was not an issue with the alignment dowels because it was still way under that diameter step.

BTW I'm not complaining about Tim's kit because it is an aftermarket repair part and it's doing what I need it to do with some mild massaging but I would love to see an uncut video of him drilling, tapping, studding, and then just sliding some un-drilled heads down onto the decks. It's not going to happen. His prices, service, and personal technical advice over the phone were great.

Vernon

PaleAle
03-04-13, 01:39 AM
Stoveguyy,
If the shop you're referring to is in Mahtomedi, they are legit. They have done a lot of them. I had them do a 98 SLS for me a while back before I learned to do it myself. A friends Mom bought the car and put 43000 miles on it before she sold it over a year ago. They give a 1 year unlimited mileage warranty.
I've only done a dozen of them and haven't attempted one in the car yet. I'm tempted to try it though. If you add up removing and reinstalling the cradle, recharging the AC, bleeding the brakes, etc. It might be worth a try, especially on a Deville where the front cross brace unbolts. Unfortunately, my next one is a 2002 STS but I might try it anyway. I can always pull it if I run out of patience.

daveyhouse
03-04-13, 11:07 PM
I've recently repaired my Northstar car using Carrol's stud kit. I haven't mentioned it yet but fitting the heads down onto the installed studs was a PITA.

Vernon

It was a PITA for me also but I then used a small 3" sqaure that came with my compound miter saw to square up the studs with the deck. I used a handle from a hydraulic jack and put a shirt over the stud to prevent damage to the threads and tweaked it the direction needed to get it square with the deck.
Once they were all square the head slid right on with hardly any resistance.

Manic Mechanic
03-04-13, 11:48 PM
That sounds like the best approach Davey. I had thought of using a square but we didn't have any at the shop and I didn't think of a mini sized one to get under the threads and against the shank. I was just in my back yard work shop yesterday looking at my squares and trying to remember why I had thought about taking one to the garage and that was it, you just reminded me. If I ever do that again I'll have a small one at the ready.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one.

Vernon

daveyhouse
03-05-13, 12:13 AM
Actually I think a simple speed square will probable work just fine, compared to our first attempt, because I believe the threads are are the same diameter as the shank. Even if they are not, eyeballing would be better than not using a square at all. A square is the ticket to save 200 simoleons. :D
Just remember to check both 90* sides to square up.

Carroll Cadillac
03-05-13, 01:32 AM
Alright fellas,

My technique out performs a false sense of security using a Jig.
I will do a uncut video for you all! I promise, I have a '05 DTS I will be doing some high performance on in about a week and since you asked I will do a uncut short film.
I really did not do cut films they were just of the different steps, But I understand?
I will do a complete side of drilling, tapping, installing the head and torqueing it down, I will keep you all posted.
It will be about a week and a half from now before I go live with it.

I am very busy as most of you are aware, and to add to my time? I am in the middle of relocating to Dallas Texas, so hang in there!
If any of you would like to learn about the engineering aspects of the Northstar our phone lines are always open for discussion.

Thanks, Tim Carroll

daveyhouse
03-05-13, 03:03 AM
:food-snacking:

By the way, are you gonna be alright in that heat going from Washington to texas?:D

----------

By the way, I don't doubt you, or I wouldn't have tried your studs. I just gotta finish.

Carroll Cadillac
03-05-13, 03:25 AM
Yes, we will be just fine, we are originally from the south so going back is a welcomed change.
As you may be aware, classic auto restorer and a pro auto painter, this weather up here is not easy to paint in without working double time trying to dry our systems, and water still makes it through, the cold don't help either.

Some people tell me their here because the seasons, excuse me? You mean season? Because the only season here is called the raining season, LOL
I wear long johns almost ten months out of the year, the most scarce thing here is a sun break!
Yeah, I have never been more ready to go home where we belong.

Besides, the 12 acres my shops are on has a small lake full of black bass! When I want to take a break I can walk out back and enjoy some fishing.
Oh how I miss the heat!

I want you all to remember this?? The number one thing about our Head Studs is the proper depth allowing the use of the dowel pins.
In no application of Head Studs should the Studs ever be near the deck surface this is your first clue, this can crack you block and distort the cylinders.
If you would like a second opinion? Ask Alan Johnson with CHR, he is likewise an engineer who has always known this.
It is the law of physics in automotive mechanical engineering.

So rest assured you have used the only correct Head Studs for the Northstar.
Thanks to all of you who have experienced our Head Studs, here is to many years behind the wheel of your Caddy's!!

Texas or Bust! Tim

stoveguyy
03-05-13, 10:32 AM
"studs near the deck surface"? What does that mean? I know how studs thread into block. Are u referring to exposed threads on studs?

Submariner409
03-05-13, 10:37 AM
Tim, A couple of old submarine friends were stationed out of Bremerton - they used to say it was the only place they'd ever been to where moss grows on windshields.

Good luck on the Texas relocation - you, Phil Mickelson and most of the U.S. gun/ammo manufacturers .................

Manic Mechanic
03-05-13, 11:28 AM
"studs near the deck surface"? What does that mean? I know how studs thread into block. Are u referring to exposed threads on studs?

Yes that's what Tim was saying. See if you can get ahold of a copy of Carrol Smith's book "Engineer to Win". It will tell you more about designing and building automotive things concerning metaluragy, joining planes of metal, fasteners, and welding properly than you thought you needed to know. You don't want threads pulling at the deck surface, you want the load pulling from further down beneath the deck.

Tim, you being from Texas and moving back is great news to me. I spent my childhood up there and still make a trip up there from time to time. I would love to meet you and your guys and check out your cool projects and work. The only thing better would be if you were coming to Houston.

Vernon

daveyhouse
03-05-13, 12:18 PM
I did set mine so that exactly 4" was exposed above the deck as per Tim Carroll's website. My motor is a 96 block. http://www.carrollcustomcadillac.com/Pages/BlockStudding.aspx I took a grinder to the tip of my drill bits so they would stop at the bottom of the hole.

Pre '99
All Studs are to be set at 4" above block surface and 2-3/4" below.

2000 and Newer
Studs should be placed 2-1/2" below block surface for the intake upper bank and 3-1/8" for the lower bank.

The torquing I followed his specs but when I got to the 75 lb mark I went though a couple times more following pattern until I got zero movement on all nuts at 75 lb's.

Manic Mechanic
03-05-13, 12:51 PM
Just to be clear I'm refering to the threads on the bottom half of the studs. You want them to end up a bit below the deck. I don't know if Tim's main competetor's studs have threads that at all the way up to the deck surface but that seems to be one of his main arguments as to why his are better.

Vernon

daveyhouse
03-05-13, 01:01 PM
Yeah mine were definitely below deck surface. Didn't measure but probably at least 1/2". Tim would have to answer that one.

RippyPartsDept
03-05-13, 01:03 PM
http://www.northstarperformance.com/img/studkitphoto2.jpg

And CCC's studs
http://www.carrollcustomcadillac.com/siteimages/My%20studs.jpg


i don't know of any studs with threads all the way ...

Ranger
03-08-13, 12:15 AM
You are misunderstanding Chris. They are talking length of the lower threads, when installed in the block and where they end in relationship to the deck surface (even with or below).

daveyhouse
03-08-13, 12:48 AM
Well with Tim's, they would have to be defiantly be below the surface in order to get the dowel pins to set right, because all the the studs are the same. At least for the studs we bought for the 98'

04GrandAmGT
03-08-13, 03:37 PM
Here at Northstar Performance, we strive for the best quality studs around. Our studs are accurate to a Tenth of a Thou (.0001) clearance any thing more or less are thrown into the scrap metal pile, you will never see nicks or flat spots in our studs, the threads are always smooth but pointy. if you would like proof i can take a macro shot of our studs to show the threads. With our New X-Plate design drilling and tapping couldn't be more accurate, or straight, it is also lighter, and easier to handle. We strongly recommend, never drilling or tapping free hand, the slightest error in hand movement can cause a hole to either be drilled or tapped crooked.

Have A Nice Day.

P.S. Our new shipment of steel has come in (Delayed Due to Severe Weather). Studs Will be Restocked By Tomorrow. Also Shipping Location in Batavia, New York Projected to be up and running by the end of June this year.

RippyPartsDept
03-08-13, 03:55 PM
You are misunderstanding Chris. They are talking length of the lower threads, when installed in the block and where they end in relationship to the deck surface (even with or below).

yeah i misread what he said ... or just stopped reading after the 'threads all the way up' bit

figured it would be good to illustrate what we're talking about at least