: Northstar cam timing and chain problem



ffemt702
02-08-13, 04:01 PM
Dealer states I need a new rear exhaust cam and possible lifters and tapets. How hard is this to change? Local junk yard has quit a few devilles with northstar engines.

MoistCabbage
02-08-13, 04:33 PM
What's their reason? That's pretty unusual.

basscatt
02-08-13, 05:33 PM
Dealer states I need a new rear exhaust cam and possible lifters and tapets. How hard is this to change? Local junk yard has quit a few devilles with northstar engines.
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How hard is this to change?
that's everybody's first question -

WE don't know anything about your skill level -
or tool collection - or place to work -

while it's not brain surgery - it's not just popping a pimple either -

do you have a Factory Service Manual -

floor jacks - jack stands - engine hoist - hand tools - any experience -

if nothing else -
go to the junk yard that has a Northstar powered car - and practice -

good luck - and keep us posted -

Submariner409
02-08-13, 07:04 PM
Also, what car, year, engine you have has a LARGE bearing on what you may need. Update your profile.

ffemt702
02-10-13, 01:04 PM
My 99 deville concourse northstar motor has been ticking every since oil change 2 months ago. i took to the dealer and they charge 400 to troubleshoot. The price to fix is crazy 4500 to repair or 10000 for new engine. I told them to leave the engine mounts disconnect and don't put it back together.

This is was they told me and how hard is it for me to repair. I am a decent mech but not use to working on northstars.

1. dealer stated they found 5 lifters worn thru tappets and rear exhuast cam worni
2. fix repalce rear exhuast cam replace all lifters and carbon efi cleaning.


Questions
1 How hard is it for me to replace lifters and cam?
2.Is the exhaust cam the same in regular northstars vs the concourse non roller?

I can get the parts from local junk yard which has about 20 + northstar caddys and a few concourses.

Submariner409
02-10-13, 02:08 PM
Deville Concours - The 8th character of the car's VIN is the engine designation - Y is a somewhat different engine from 9. Your engine uses direct contact hydraulic cam followers. Unfortunately, cam followers (lifters) wear in to a specific cam lobe and are NOT interchangeable - as in: pick-a parts won't work (for long).

To change the right bank (rear) exhaust cam is a bit of work - the cam cover comes off, you use tiny tools and laproscopic surgery to pin the cam chain tensioner down in the chaincase, remove the cam and all followers. replace it all with new parts - hard to find and expensive. Problem is, if the right bank followers are wearing through (the case hardening face) then the other cams/followers are not far behind. Welcome to the government-mandated reduction of anti-scuff anti-wear additives in the SM and SN motor oils.

Bottom line: If you are not intimately familiar with a Northstar and don't have a fairly comprehensive set of tools and a shop, don't even try.

There are several threads with scary pictures of your type of cam/follower wear in Northstar Performance and in Discussions, Cadillac Tech Tips.

For the pre-2000 flat tappet cam engines I would recommend using 10W-30 HD fleet conventional oils with their more robust additive packages.


Please do not multiple post or bump posts - wait for answers.

basscatt
02-10-13, 02:26 PM
there was another thread from December -



http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/277136-1999-deville-concours-engine-tick-after.html

ffemt702
02-10-13, 04:22 PM
The valve covers are off and I can see the tappets have worn thru the lifters on the exhaust side in the rear. SO if I can get replacement used cam with matching lifter out of a junkyard engine wouldnt be a good idea. the only other thing i could do is a complete head job both sides or replace/rebuild engine.

Submariner409
02-10-13, 04:31 PM
IF the engine has never had a top overhaul - using Norm's Inserts or studs to repair the cylinder block bolt hole threads - now is the time to tackle the job. Once you get into the engine you may well uncover other worn parts and that's not good.

Look at Engines, Northstar Performance and read through the sticky posts just above the member threads to find out what you're up against. (and a mid to high mileage used engine is NOT a good choice) - rebuild what you have. Your engine - high mileage - total rebuild by yourself with help - $2,500 to $3,500 and a LOT of personal time and labor.

Look at these sites - www.northstarperformance.com (http://www.northstarperformance.com) , www.carrollcustomcadillac.com (http://www.carrollcustomcadillac.com), www.huhnsolutions.com (http://www.huhnsolutions.com)

basscatt
02-10-13, 07:21 PM
The valve covers are off and I can see the tappets have worn thru the lifters on the exhaust side in the rear. SO if I can get replacement used cam with matching lifter out of a junkyard engine wouldnt be a good idea. the only other thing i could do is a complete head job both sides or replace/rebuild engine.
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then you MUST ask this question -

WHY -

why only the exhaust cam and tappets - on the right side?

the entire engine shared the same oil - has the same mileage -

I bet - if you look carefully at the intake side closely - you will see wear also -
and like Sub suggested - I bet the further you get into that motor -
the more problems you will find -

personally - I wouldn't spend another penny on that motor -
you'd be better off with a good used one -
and do the head-bolt repair before installing it -

Ranger
02-10-13, 09:03 PM
I have to agree. If the right bank exhaust cam & lifters are worn the others can't be far behind. Changing that one set is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol. :emocide: Do 'em all or swap motors.

ffemt702
02-11-13, 09:48 PM
I must agree, something must be out of wack to rear a cam into lifters down into the tappets. I think I gonna let AAA Engine put a rebuilt engine in the caddy.

http://www.aaaengine.com/cadillac1.php

Any opinions good or bad? Only thing, they don't mention concouse

basscatt
02-11-13, 10:47 PM
I must agree, something must be out of wack to rear a cam into lifters down into the tappets. I think I gonna let AAA Engine put a rebuilt engine in the caddy.

http://www.aaaengine.com/cadillac1.php

Any opinions good or bad? Only thing, they don't mention concouse
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the Concours model uses a VIN "9" motor -
and they DO list the 96 -03 STS - which also uses the VIN "9" motor -

but $2300 for a rebuilt Northstar motor sounds way too cheap -

just to PROPERLY timesert the motor is going to cost several hundred -
and I don't see any reference to that -

I would call and ask if that got done - and how did they do it -

there are some really cheap repairs going on lately -
where they are only using helicoils with the original head bolts -

and of course - that will NOT be a permanent repair -

ffemt702
02-16-13, 07:12 PM
I have 99 deville concourse 9 on Vin not X. The delear pulled off both vavle covers, 5 lifters worn to tappet. Caddy delear recommends swamping rear cam and all 32 lifters. They blame the 5 worn down lifters on carbon build and not getting top carbon throttle body done. My question is this.

Can the rear cam be changes and lifters without special tools or droping engine out? I need a temp fix, this car is pimping me out. I'm gonna get rid of it. Has any one done this job before and any recommendations. I need a cheap fix to sell. Besides that car run perfect.

ffemt702
02-16-13, 07:19 PM
Ok, I need the cheap temp fix to get rid of this thing- it's pimping me out.

has any one changed the rear exhuast cam without pulling motor and is that possible? the vavle covers are off, I can see the worn 3-5 lifters, which is why motor been tapping. Goal is to swamp cam without lower motor out of car. Is that possible? Worn down per dealer because carbon recommend fix from dealer rear cam swamp, and replace 32 lifters.

basscatt
02-16-13, 07:49 PM
Ok, I need the cheap temp fix to get rid of this thing- it's pimping me out.

has any one changed the rear exhuast cam without pulling motor and is that possible? the vavle covers are off, I can see the worn 3-5 lifters, which is why motor been tapping. Goal is to swamp cam without lower motor out of car. Is that possible? Worn down per dealer because carbon recommend fix from dealer rear cam swamp, and replace 32 lifters.

----------------
WE don't know what your skill level is -
or your knowledge about engines -
or your collection of tools -

with that said - here is the best advise I would offer you -

go to the junk yard - find a '99 Cadillac WITH A VIN "9" MOTOR -
and try to pull out the camshaft and tappets from the FRONT of the motor -

you will quickly discover whether or not YOU can do it -

basscatt
02-16-13, 08:00 PM
you have two threads going on the same problem -

ask one of the moderators to merge them -

Submariner409
02-16-13, 08:26 PM
............ Done.

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I have 99 deville concourse 9 on Vin not X. The delear pulled off both vavle covers, 5 lifters worn to tappet. Caddy delear recommends swamping rear cam and all 32 lifters. They blame the 5 worn down lifters on carbon build and not getting top carbon throttle body done. My question is this.

Can the rear cam be changes and lifters without special tools or droping engine out? I need a temp fix, this car is pimping me out. I'm gonna get rid of it. Has any one done this job before and any recommendations. I need a cheap fix to sell. Besides that car run perfect.

NONE of that statement is possible or even close to true.

ffemt702
02-23-13, 08:35 PM
well, pulled the rear exhaust cam and found 2 worn down lifters and cam is shot.I got all replacement parts. I think 2 valves were sticking close and wore done thru the lifters, probably a carbon issue or bent valves. In the process of getting everything all back together.

Submariner409
02-23-13, 09:00 PM
Unless you removed the head and checked all the valves (and if the problem WAS actually sticking valves) all your work is for naught.

A new (used) cam and a few followers (lifters) are not going to cure stuck or bent valves............ and if you DO pull the head, the cylinder block head bolt holes must be drilled and tapped to accept inserts: Simply installing the old bolts in the old holes is certain failure.

Worn cam and flat tappet cam followers in a pre-2000 Northstar............. the temptation to start yet another oil war is great.

ffemt702
02-27-13, 01:42 AM
had to replace a cam in my northstar

How you get the chain back on the gear? Do I need GM Northstar V-8 Cam Tool Kit OTC6686

I got everything marked up, just can't get the chain back on. Also, want to make up sure timing marks are all lined up as well.

Manic Mechanic
02-27-13, 07:39 AM
Obviously engines are much more complicated than you thought. There's a lot more to it than putting a chain back on a Huffy. You will need a factory service manual as this couldn't be explained adequately with a few internet posts. You'll find one on Ebay. You could also buy an online subscription to Alldata if you can't wait for the book. After you get that information and fully read and study it several times you might have a few questions or come across something confusing and need some advice. When you do the first thing you should do is update your account information so that we can see your car's year and model, because that's very important to know when answering complicated questions about them. Only after doing all of that come back and ask on the sub-forum of this site called "Northstar Performance and Tech". because it's a better fit for internal engine questions for Northstar powered vehicles. We'll be glad to help and you probably could find many answers posted there already.

Vernon

Submariner409
02-27-13, 07:50 AM
Yeah that ^^^

Did you pin the cam chain tensioner and wire-tie the chain to the cam sprocket BEFORE you unbolted everything ?? The tensioner ratchets out as soon as chain tension is released and you'll never get the chain back on now ................ because

The front timing cover has to come off and everything checked for wear, the tensioners reset, and then all 4 cams/crank need to be timed.

As Manic Mechanicposted, get a GM/Helm service manual set and/or a subscription to www.alldatadiy.com (http://www.alldatadiy.com). Without reference materials you're lost. I merged your earlier thread on WHY you replaced the cam.