: Thinking about trading for a 67 Fleetwood...new to Cadillac with a couple questions



shiner2001
02-19-13, 03:16 AM
I stumbled across what looks to be a pretty decent deal on what looks to be a pretty decent Cadillac and am considering pulling the trigger on it. It's a 67 Fleetwood that the owner says he drove until the master cylinder recently went out. Obviously without that I can't test drive it, which is never a good thing, but speaking in generalities, is there anything in particular about this can I should be aware of? Mechanically, I can do anything I need to to it, but I don't really want to get in over my head and am particularly concerned about the availability of parts for it. I have some vehicles that can be built straight out of a catalog and some that you have to get lucky with used parts and wasn't sure where this particular car might fall. If anyone can point me to any websites or catalogs that might help in a build of a car like this, that would be fantastic.

In good running and driving condition with a decent interior, what are similar 67's like this going for? I know that's a broad broad question, but I am brand new to Cadillacs and trying to get my bearings straight before I dive into a trade and a new project.

Many many thanks in advance for any quick Cadillac knowledge yall can throw at me!!

FoxRodder
02-19-13, 02:49 PM
I hope for your sake its rust free unlike mine. They make quarters and fenders for every other GM vehicle out there except late 60's 'lacs. I'm not yet sure which parts are all available. Pretty sure you can get master cylinders and boosters, etc but body parts, interior parts, stuff like that is all ebay and internet searching. If you plan to garage it, measure your garage because my coupe barely squeezes in and many garages are smaller. The collector car companies don't want to insure un-garaged cars. See if you can't get some pics of it

Andrew224
02-19-13, 04:21 PM
I have a '66 Fleetwood that I purchased last Fall and I'm restoring it now. '67 Caddys have the 429, same as what I have. Parts are relatively easy to find and relatively cheap. I've gotten a good majority of my parts from RockAuto.com.

The forums at the Cadillac LaSalle Club site are very useful.

With no detail, I'll say that a '67 Fleetwood that has been used as a daily driver until the brakes failed is worth about $2,000 tops (without looking at it). The engine is 45 years old. Expect a lot of leaks. Expect a lot of broken bolts when you go to do repairs. The mid '60s is a time when the bolts and such weren't over-engineered like they were in the '50s and before. I've become very well versed in how to extract broken bolts over the past few months. On the plus side is that there are many parts that fit Cadillacs / GM well into the late 70s.

I agree with FoxRodder to check your garage. As a guide, my Fleetwood 75 series (longer than the standard Fleetwood is just shy of 21 feet long).

If you hunt around, you can find parts easily. If you don't want to hunt around, you can get them from Caddy Daddy or the like. They have just about everything but you pay through the nose.

Personally, I got tired of working on it with the engine in the car. I pulled it out to make things easier. Of course, I'm doing a full restore, so access to replacing the brake lines and trans lines is much easier as well as everything else.

104099

104100

Good luck. Also, my rule of thumb is to multiply whatever you think it will cost to get your car on the road by three and how long it will take by 5 and that's more accurate. Then take everything you have invested into the car and divide by two to get a good estimate of the car's value! :D

And for a comp., I paid $2,200 or thereabouts for my car last Fall and I drove it home 60 miles. Just something to compare it to.

CADforce69
02-19-13, 06:28 PM
Also, my rule of thumb is to multiply whatever you think it will cost to get your car on the road by three and how long it will take by 5 and that's more accurate. Then take everything you have invested into the car and divide by two to get a good estimate of the car's value! :D

And for a comp., I paid $2,200 or thereabouts for my car last Fall and I drove it home 60 miles. Just something to compare it to.

I can testify the above written is true :D

Welcome to the forum, shiner.

As Andrew said, Rockauto.com is a good and cheap source of the most commonly demanded parts. For what you can not find at Rockauto, look on http://www.usapartssupply.com/cadillac.php They have a huge parts catalog. For many body or interior missing parts you will have to look on Ebay and you can also check for used parts http://www.cadillacsonly.com/

1967 was a special year so not the best year for body or interior reproduction parts but I have to say Iīve been able to find everything I needed to restore a friendīs 1967 caddy (used parts) from Spain so living in the States makes it even more easy for you.

Check rust points, specially floor pan, trunk pan and lower fenders. Itīs one of the headaches of these old caddies. Look for transmission leaks that could make you take off tranny to replace seals and gaskets. Another typical headache of these years is electrical gremlins due to a lot of old wires running into these old beasts and faulty fixings. Check accessories work properly and there is no electrical shorts or drawnings.

I would try to carefully drive the car. You should test transmission and engine running. At a low speed you can always use the emergency brake. If the owner donīt want to get the car moving you should lower the price as much as possible. Itīs a car that can not move after all and apart from the master cylinder there could be many other hidden problems. Check Ebay for prices of 67 caddies in similar condition.

Good luck and waiting for your feedback of the car.

shiner2001
02-19-13, 08:27 PM
Thanks for the responses, guys. The car is listed at $4500, which I assumed might be a decent price on it, but sounds like they might go for a little less than that. I was looking at a trade and I don't get the feeling this guy would add cash to the table (since he's not even fixing the MC, which is cheap and easy), so this might be out. Here are the pictures that I've seen of the car so far. The interior looks to be in great shape, other than a couple spots in one door panel and on the driver seat (which he mentioned in the ad). It's vehicle-specific parts like interior, badging, etc that worry about availability, not so much the general mechanical stuff. I am already a big fan of Rock Auto and spent some time last night seeing what all they had available. I'm also very well versed in the cost-returns of projects like this, as well as the time frame involved. I have several other projects in varying stages of completeness, so I don't even know why I am considering this, other than it looks like a pretty sweet car (minus the rims, those gotta go).

Anyway, here are some pictures that he's sent me. Not very high res, but you can get a decent idea of what I am looking at. I am out of town for work this week, but am going to try to go look in person this weekend if I can arrange it.

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-29-1595858_zps07c95601.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-29-3695541_zpsff79c0b9.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-29-049598_zpse9d11cc8.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-28-52953121_zpsdc8717cd.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-14-5795955_zps8551a78f.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-29-5595828_zpsead3cee8.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-30-3695725_zps1f6300b7.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-25-4895799_zps4a9920c6.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-26-3195867_zps2a8084bb.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-25-3795232_zps81b5feb7.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-25-1895766_zpsa3006eda.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-25-0695530_zpsf6b97a98.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr208/derekmayfield/Cadillac/2013-02-139511-27-0095672_zps02a57e40.jpg

77CDV
02-19-13, 10:29 PM
Fleetwood Brougham, which is very good, as it's more desireable than the base Fleetwood Sixty Special. Huge rims are making me nervous as to what else may have been done to the car. Check thoroughly for rust and rust repair, esp in the lower fenders, rocker panels, under the top and around the backlight. Use a magnet (that car's clearly been repainted and who knows what's lurking underneath) to see how much filler's been used. The trans in these cars can be a weak spot, as they use a one-year-only switch pitch stator on the torque converter to compensate for the extra strain all the options put on the 429 (performance is a bit sluggish).

But, you get rear foot rests, rear seat fold down picnic tables, and rear seat reading lights! This was truly Cadillac's top owner-driven car, and cost $7000+ when new (in 1967 dollars!). Very excusive, very special cars.

Good luck! :)

shiner2001
02-19-13, 10:53 PM
"One-year-only switch pitch stator on the torque converter" is just about enough to make me run the other direction. I'll tackle anything under the hood, but I am fairly convinced that automatic transmissions run off of fairy dust and black magic. But...is that an easily fixable problem if it goes wrong?

In swapping text messages with the seller, he told me there were two rust spots that seemed easily fixable, but that's all I know. Not sure where they are or if it's surface rust or something deeper. Popping the hood of this car might be enough to make me walk away immediately, as there's nothing I hate worse than dealing with shoddy work from a previous owner, especially the wiring.

By the way, what trans does this car come with?

talismandave
02-19-13, 11:05 PM
That is a beautiful car. Be careful not to become intoxicated by it's beauty and blinded to the faults and problems. (It is easy and we all know that from personal experience!):shhh:

The good news is the seller may think the wheels/tires are worth at least a quarter of that price. You could sell them yourself if you buy the car "as is" but may have a hard time finding someone who feels they are worth a third of what he thinks they are worth. you may be able to make a deal on the car where he keeps the wheels.

When going to look at it you may want to involve your most critical friend to act as a "sober buddy" to act as the angel on your shoulder.:angel:

As for all of us....we would say BUY IT! :lildevil:

Welcome and I hope it turns out to be a straight clean classic Cadillac that is just right for you!:cloud9:

shiner2001
02-19-13, 11:15 PM
you may be able to make a deal on the car where he keeps the wheels.



That was one of my questions that got asked via text and seemed to have been lost in the shuffle...if he had the stock rims or not. I don't really feel like paying cash for this because I certainly don't need another project, but instead I was thinking about swapping my 98 Mark VIII for it since I don't drive it too much. However, I think his trade value is a little lower than mine, so I don't know what I'm gonna do. Like I said, gonna hopefully lay my eyes on it in person this weekend. Bad news is I go under the knife for shoulder surgery next Tuesday, so if nothing is done by then, it's definitely gonna be back burner at that point. Maybe that's a good thing. If it's still around in a month or so when I am back out and about he will be willing to take a lot less for it. Although he's looking for a daily driver in trade, so something else could come along soon for him I suppose.

Another line of thought...how common are engine/tranny swaps in these old classic Cadillacs? I'm thinking specifically of a 5.3 LS and a 4L60E.

77CDV
02-20-13, 01:54 AM
1967 uses the TH400 IIRC. People swap any number of engines into these cars, and heaven knows you have more than enough room to work with under the hood. It all depends how much money and time you want to invest.

shiner2001
02-20-13, 04:14 AM
1967 uses the TH400 IIRC. People swap any number of engines into these cars, and heaven knows you have more than enough room to work with under the hood. It all depends how much money and time you want to invest.

Hmmm...I wonder if the Caddy TH400 bolt pattern is the same as the Chevy. I know that my AMC TH400 is different, but if this one was the same, that opens up a whole world of possibilities for an engine swap. Although it'd be sweet to have it all stock. Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself here though...

CADforce69
02-20-13, 08:13 AM
The right hand one is a 1967 bolt pattern (429 engine). The left hand is a 1968-76 (472-500 engine). Be careful as in 1968 it changed and not many people is aware of it:

http://s4.postimage.org/x8rvdqedl/PA170022_1.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/x8rvdqedl/)

As for the switch pitch converter, itīs frequently swapped for a TH400 Trans for a 472 engine. As far as I know itīs not a difficult conversion.

Definitely I would try to lower the price, maybe leaving the fancy truck rims (You only have to get another 15x5 rims maybe from a junkyard caddy; a lot of years are equivalent for rims). Leaving the car stopped just because a Master cylinder seems suspicious to me

shiner2001
02-20-13, 06:11 PM
The right hand one is a 1967 bolt pattern (429 engine). The left hand is a 1968-76 (472-500 engine). Be careful as in 1968 it changed and not many people is aware of it:

http://s4.postimage.org/x8rvdqedl/PA170022_1.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/x8rvdqedl/)

As for the switch pitch converter, itīs frequently swapped for a TH400 Trans for a 472 engine. As far as I know itīs not a difficult conversion.

Definitely I would try to lower the price, maybe leaving the fancy truck rims (You only have to get another 15x5 rims maybe from a junkyard caddy; a lot of years are equivalent for rims). Leaving the car stopped just because a Master cylinder seems suspicious to me

Thanks for the tranny info, good stuff. And I concur about the MC being reason enough to park it/sell it. It's definitely one that I will scrutinize more than normal since it's apparently undriveable. The more I think about it, the more I think I might just ought to wait to find a convertible of some vintage, as that's what my real desire to have is. But...I'm not too good at turning down a new project.

FoxRodder
02-20-13, 09:17 PM
You can afford to take your time and be choosy with your purchase as these are not 69 camaros or shelbys. Don't be like me! HA

talismandave
02-20-13, 09:44 PM
Thanks for the tranny info, good stuff. And I concur about the MC being reason enough to park it/sell it. It's definitely one that I will scrutinize more than normal since it's apparently undriveable. The more I think about it, the more I think I might just ought to wait to find a convertible of some vintage, as that's what my real desire to have is. But...I'm not too good at turning down a new project.

The last line of this post has a lot to offer.

When you say you are not one to turn down a project, does that imply that you are used to doing mechanical work and body work? If you are and are looking at this as a one or two year driver and selling it, you had better get it very cheap!

Otherwise just pass on the car. You would be better off finding the car you want than settling on a sedan. There is nothing worse than spending a lot of time/money on a car that is almost​ your dream car. In the end you will end up selling it at a loss and not being a happy camper.

shiner2001
02-20-13, 10:18 PM
The last line of this post has a lot to offer.

When you say you are not one to turn down a project, does that imply that you are used to doing mechanical work and body work? If you are and are looking at this as a one or two year driver and selling it, you had better get it very cheap!

Otherwise just pass on the car. You would be better off finding the car you want than settling on a sedan. There is nothing worse than spending a lot of time/money on a car that is almost​ your dream car. In the end you will end up selling it at a loss and not being a happy camper.

All very very good points indeed. And I'm certainly not short on projects at the time, getting into this one doesn't really bring anything to the table I guess.

Andrew224
02-21-13, 01:59 AM
For $4,500, I'd pass. That's a $2,000 car.

shiner2001
02-21-13, 02:15 AM
For $4,500, I'd pass. That's a $2,000 car.

That seems to be the general consensus so far. I think I will still go take a look just to file some knowledge away in my noggin for future reference. And like I said, if it sits for awhile, he may get desperate and it might be worth revisiting later. Many many thanks for all the honest info and opinions and not falling into the the "it's not my money...go buy it!!" line of thinking.

talismandave
02-21-13, 02:52 PM
We'll wait to hear what you find when you see it. Always good to practice on a few first!