: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed



krummel21
02-17-13, 10:09 AM
I ran across this article this morning so I thought that I would post it here. They talk about the ATS-V in the 2nd paragraph.

http://wot.motortrend.com/we-hear-next-cadillac-cts-v-to-get-force-fed-lt1-engine-cts-coupe-wagon-future-uncertain-328909.html#axzz2LABiMuax

mikesul
02-17-13, 04:55 PM
That's just what I expected. Everyone's trying to pare weight off the vehicles to improve gas mileage. Does a twin turbo V6 with all the plumbing/intercooler weight less than an aluminum block V8, I wonder. GM has a 5.5L V8 in development that could easily put out 400+HP and with DI and cylinder deactivation probably get better mileage that the TTV6. Nothing beats the sound of a V8 with a good exhaust system!!

marktanner
02-17-13, 05:19 PM
The previous LS3 weighed about the same as the 3.6 V6, as the DOHC valvetrain weighs more than the heads on the simpler V8. The LT1 weighs about 30 lb more, due to the variable valve timing, DI plumbing, and apparatus/computer for the cylinder deactivation. That would still be lighter than adding a turbo and intercooler, so the new V8 could still be lighter than the turbo V6.

I believe the selection of the V6 Turbo is based more on what BMW will be offering, unless they found some other magic in this engine. The LT1 would weigh the same, or even less, probably make more power, have equivalent fuel economy, a lower center of gravity, and no turbo lag. Not to mention a great V8 soundtrack, and something unique in the class (if MB dumps the V8 in the C Class AMG). Chevy kept the displacement for the C7 at 6.2 L for improved economy, as it could run more often in four cylinder mode at that displacement, and it also allows more power to boot! The C7 Vette weighs only a couple of hundred pounds less than the ATS-V will weigh, so it would certainly have scintillating performance of 0-60 in the low 4s. The ZO6 engine would be even better. Hope they both find their way into the ATS.

thebigjimsho
02-17-13, 07:27 PM
I'm fine with both...

krummel21
02-17-13, 10:31 PM
Would it be worth the wait though? I would assume with some aftermarket tunes that v6 TT could have some real good power

rand49er
02-18-13, 06:19 PM
Beat you by a day: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-general/282161-old-news.html

RippyPartsDept
02-18-13, 06:26 PM
and i wouldn't necessarily say 'confirmed'
someone has leaked this info to MT
maybe even a sanctioned leak, still a leak nonetheless
confirmation would come from GM not the press

just sayin'

Posaune
02-21-13, 01:18 AM
Wasn't the 5.5L gen V rumor debunked a while ago?

rand49er
02-21-13, 08:02 AM
I found this statement quite interesting:

"But V-8 fans shouldn’t despair, because the ATS was designed with room for a V-8 as big as the 7.0-liter Corvette Z06’s; that plan isn’t dead. Some kind of ATS-V “plus” could feature V-8 power, possibly at the end of the first-gen ATS’ lifecycle as a special model."

Does MT know what they're talking about? I'm not too confident.



EDIT: Just got back from taking my wife's SRX to the dealer to get the oil changed. Got back and told my wife how I was drooling over the ATS models on the showroom floor. Told her (again) how I'd like to get the V version when it comes out. Getting her warmed up to the idea every chance I get. :lildevil:

bruff1977
03-01-13, 09:28 PM
The LT1 with AFM will weigh in at 465 pounds. Not sure how much the LFX is, or the LLT for that matter, but if there will be a TTV6, it has to weigh less than 465.

Posaune
03-08-13, 06:00 PM
LLT is about 370 dry. LFX redesigned heads with integrated header saved about 20lbs so about 350lbs dry. Add the plumbing, turbos, IC and I would bet the TTV6 and LT1 are very close in weight.

M5eater
05-06-13, 09:38 AM
LLT is about 370 dry. LFX redesigned heads with integrated header saved about 20lbs so about 350lbs dry. Add the plumbing, turbos, IC and I would bet the TTV6 and LT1 are very close in weight.
Agreed, actually, I would stretch to say that with 110lbs to play with it could easily come slightly under an LT1 in weight. The turbos are very small MHI units and given that their manifolds are integrated into the heads, that's your second largest source of weight removed. With just the turbos to deal with we're only talking between 20-35lbs a pop there. IC piping is all cast aluminum or plastic these days, there's *maybe* 5 lbs worth collectively. The Water to air IC bricks are relatively small units but the support system for the coolant res and associated hardware I would bet is another 20lbs.

Pure estimates based on my past experience with twinturbo V6 units of course, but adding turbo's isn't a 150lb dead horse that comes to mind whenever it's mentioned.


Would it be worth the wait though? I would assume with some aftermarket tunes that v6 TT could have some real good power
I think you would find that given it's introduced into enough cars, and possibly a Camaro or Corvette, an LF3 would be more capable than an LT1 until you start talking about crazy-stupid numbers.

Making power in an LS3 isn't the 100hp on a dime engine that it's touted to be. It costs a lot of money to make an additional 100HP and remain N/A, and if you're wanting to go F/I, you're easily into 7-10K territory. What's great about it compared to sale, a 5.0L ford is that it's in a lot more than a Camaro, so your customer (and by extension supplier) base is exponentially larger.

I would bet you could make an additional 100HP in an LF3 for less than a set of heads for an LS3. Even after Cadillac/Low production engine taxes, and if it makes it's way into a real sports car (ie the maro or vette) I think you'd find it could turn into an amazing platform simply by virtue that cars which have employed this configuration in the past with core enthusiast owners-- the B5 S4, 335i and 300ZX for example, have demonstrated that they can easily spawn aftermarket to push those engines into the 5,6 even 800hp relms.

While being available in an affordable platform will surely increase it's popularity. I think really all the LF3 needs to be able to exist as a potent platform is a non-locked ECU and a decent amount of breathing room from the connecting rods.

rand49er
05-06-13, 05:33 PM
... a decent amount of breathing room from the connecting rods.Can't recall ... did they say they were forged ... or not?

M5eater
05-06-13, 08:15 PM
Can't recall ... did they say they were forged ... or not?

the best technical article I've found comes from GM's news outlet on their site, however, they don't mention how they made the changes, only that they exist.
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2013/Mar/nyas/0318-lf3-engine.html



he new engine is a comprehensive upgrade on the 60-degree, 3.6L DOHC V-6 offered in today’s SRX, XTS and ATS. However, almost every component is unique. New features include:

All-new cylinder block casting
All-new cylinder head castings
Strengthened connecting rods
Machined, domed aluminum pistons with top steel ring carrier for greater strength
10.2:1 compression ratio
Patented, integrated charge air cooler system with low-volume air ducts
Two turbochargers produce more than 12 pounds of boost (80 kPa)
Vacuum-actuated wastegates with electronic control valves
All-new direct injection fuel system
Tuned air inlet and outlet resonators, aluminum cam covers and other features that contribute to exceptional quietness and smoothness.

rand49er
05-06-13, 10:25 PM
"Strengthened ..."

Hm-m ...

Hoosier Daddy
05-07-13, 12:01 PM
ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed
Anyone know what will be in the specialer and specialest editions?

Jinx
05-09-13, 05:24 AM
Motor Trend has said a lot of things that didn't pan out.

RippyPartsDept
05-09-13, 10:41 AM
i was going to say that too... since when does motor trend confirm GM future plans that GM hasn't even announced yet?

JFJr
05-17-13, 03:23 PM
I hope the upcoming availability of the TTV6 in the XTS indicates that it won't be a "V" engine, especially considering the problems that Ford is having with its over-hyped Ecoboost V6. Besides, how much more power could we expect in a streetable TTV6 and still maintain good durability?

Jud

wilmo
05-17-13, 04:26 PM
Have you driven a ttv6 ecoboost? They are very quick even in a 4300 lb taurus sho.. And the tuning possibilites would be endless. It could be worse..

----------

Also look at the nissan gtr.. 530hp from a reliable stock ttv6.. Which can reach well over 1000 tuned.. Plus ford ran baja with the ecoboost, there is plenty of durability there, but all new engines have growing pains.

M5eater
05-17-13, 04:29 PM
I hope the upcoming availability of the TTV6 in the XTS indicates that it won't be a "V" engine, especially considering the problems that Ford is having with its over-hyped Ecoboost V6. Besides, how much more power could we expect in a streetable TTV6 and still maintain good durability?

Jud

I would welcome a TTV6 over a LT1 purely for it's tuning potentional and power band. The Car I came from used a 2.7TT powertrain and people easily double or triple that engine's stock output for very little cash. The single remeaming quality of the LT1 would be that V8 noise and maybe simplicitiy of design possibly leading twoard lower long-term ownership costs. It'll likely also have a vast aftermarket eventually, but the LF3 I'm sure will be able to get a tune and tweak to 500Hp easily.

The fact that
a) this brand has essentially 0 aftermarket outside of the LS engines which essentially mooch off the camaro/vette owners
b) the LF3 is in the CTS- Vsport and XTS
both reinforce that should it get a TTV6, we may not be totally blacked from aftermarket like some german sedans are. Given that the engine is avaliable in other vehicles.

JFJr
05-17-13, 05:22 PM
Look at it from GM's perspective, not potential owners' interest in aftermarket "tunes" or whatever. Most people aren't interested in mods. Cadillac has had great success using V8's in the "V's" and doesn't need the "me too" attitude and copy the Japanese or the Germans. Doing it the American way makes a better statement. Also, don't underplay the simplicity, efficiency, power and compact size of the LSx V8's. Dumping essentially the same TTV6 available in other Cadillac models, in a "V," dilutes the exclusivity of the "V's" and makes them more mundane. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

Jud

RippyPartsDept
05-17-13, 05:38 PM
both great points ... i wonder if this same conversation/discussion happened 6 months to a year ago in some conference room in one of the upper floors of the Renaissance Center

M5eater
05-17-13, 06:45 PM
Look at it from GM's perspective, not potential owners' interest in aftermarket "tunes" or whatever. Most people aren't interested in mods. Cadillac has had great success using V8's in the "V's" and doesn't need the "me too" attitude and copy the Japanese or the Germans. Doing it the American way makes a better statement. Also, don't underplay the simplicity, efficiency, power and compact size of the LSx V8's. Dumping essentially the same TTV6 available in other Cadillac models, in a "V," dilutes the exclusivity of the "V's" and makes them more mundane. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

Jud

One could argue in favor of the LF3 in many ways, from an economy standpoint, from a car cohesion standpoint in that it's used in other vehicles, and from a standpoint that a higher-tech engine may attract tech-savy interested buyers that would otherwise be looking at tri-tubro I6's in an F80 M3 or an M156 in a C63, or even the wonderful 4.2 in the Audi. I mean.. those are beautifully hand-crafted engines that ooze class by simply looking at them. Have you seen an LS? It's utilitarian by comparison. the LF3 though makes an impression, and that's the direction I'd like Cadillac to eventually take. The LS will always be a GMstaple, but that doesn't mean it needs to dominate every aspect of the company. GM is capable of engineering very capable engines, and I'd like them to apply that power more often to their luxury cars where they don't want to listen to piston slap, or suck gas at a rate of 15mpg combined.


Also, don't underplay the simplicity, efficiency, power and compact size of the LSx V8's.
I don't see where I was underplaying it? I openly admitted it's strengths?

What I will say is, if Cadillac is fine with offering it in the CTS and XTS, which will both push more volume than any variant of an ATS-V, I'm certain a much lower volume vehicle such as the ATS-V won't even register as blip on their cost/ risk ratios.


Dumping essentially the same TTV6 available in other Cadillac models, in a "V," dilutes the exclusivity of the "V's" and makes them more mundane. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.
If Cadillac is emulating the Germans(which they are-- to a T so far), then they will have no problem with re-tuning an LF3 for duty in an ATS-V
Audi, BMW and Mercedes *all* have re tuned the engines in their respective 'v sport' models.
Audi with the 4L biturbo V8 (which they tuned for 420hp in the S6, 560HP in the RS6 and 520HP in the S8)
BMW did it with the 4.4L biturbo in the X5M, X6M, M5, and 550/650i
Mercedes has six different variants of the M157 in their various models, which is basicly a version of the M278 found in a plethora of upper-tier E-class and various niche models.


A V8 would appease only pure enthusiasts, and even among enthusiasts there's a niche that wants the V8 and nothing else- such as yourself. The reality is, there are far more strengths in the LF3 than there are in the V8, and while the ATS itself makes a good case to core enthusiasts, I can easily see this one going either way. More importantly, I can see it going either way and being completely satisfied, and that's the difference between us and the vette crowd. Audi's proven that they think there's still a market for a compact V8 wagon with the B8 RS4 at least, but clearly, Forced induction is the way of the future, and it's advantages are simply too noticeable to ignore in a sports sedan that's supposed to offer duality of a daily driver and track-attack weapon. If Cadillac is going to beat the M3 by the numbers, the LF3 is the engine to do it for them, not the LT1(or worse a detuned/destroked version of it), because a car can not win on it's engine's soul alone.

JFJr
05-17-13, 07:23 PM
If "tech savvy" buyers will gravitate towards a TTV6 as opposed to an LT1, then they are ignorant as car guys and may not appreciate a "V." What higher tech does the TTV6 have that the LT1 doesn't have? Four valves per cylinder, turbocharging and supercharging have been around since the early 1900's. So I guess that hype is more important than reality? Again, why care about the Germans? They have had a lot of problems with their blown engines. I realize that blown technology is desirable to get a lot of torque in a heavy car like mine, but don't think that it's high tech, only refinements to nearly a century old technology.

Jud

M5eater
05-17-13, 07:43 PM
Again, why care about the Germans?
If Cadillac cared nothing about what the germans did, there would be no ATS, infact there would be no modern day Cadillac.

They're after 3 series buyers, not corvette V8 loving buyers. Now, it's true that traditionally BMW has been about high revving N/A engines, but with the S63tu wooing buyers into the F10 over the S85, I'm not so certain their core fanbase will be so quick to shun a F/I M3. BMW's certinally betting on a bright F/I future. Nearly their entire lineup is F/I. Clearly Cadillac is willing to follow in their stead with the 2.0T and LF3.


If "tech savvy" buyers will gravitate towards a TTV6 as opposed to an LT1, then they are ignorant as car guys and may not appreciate a "V." What higher tech does the TTV6 have that the LT1 doesn't have? Four valves per cylinder, turbocharging and supercharging have been around since the early 1900's. So I guess that hype is more important than reality?
Appreciation means nothing. Sales do.

and you can't look at it from a pure technology perspective. Tech buyers, like new and exciting products. The LF3 is new and exciting. I don't look at the engine and say ' what a refinement of 100 year old hardware that is' I look at it and say 'hmmm I wonder what 600hp from this thing would feel like'
That's what makes euro-people get all happy in their pants about. Individuality. There's a shocking lack of that in the LS powered world where if you're not making 1000HP you're a no body.

Someone that's made 700whp in a B5 S4 though... he's a crazy maniac, and he's my idol that I might drive up 400 miles to waterfest and see though.

That's what the CTS-V misses. A community like that. We have comparatively nothing, and seek to mooch off other chevrolet events that are numerous to the point of laughability. I mean, we're all nice and friendly here on the forum and such, but it's different for certain.

I'm not saying that a single engine would change the entire brand into something like the VAG empire of GTI's and slamed A4's, but having our own unique, tunable engine would go a long way to brining the enthusiast community together to help each other out when the cars age a bit and need TLC. When we can't run to LStech or corvette forums for help.

Also,

Most M3 buyers don't drive their cars past road-racing and grocery getting-- which the LF3 is ideal for.

M3 owners don't typically track their vehicles to 'appreciate them', I've seen 10 times as many E46 3 series cars than I have any make or model M3 at the local autocross days. They don't pack LS engines, they pack 200hp I6's, so to bring up appreciation would be over-reaching as an aspect that the normal M3 buyer posses.

In my opinion, they're looking a pretty fast car that also is easily driveable every day, and maybe a badge, but to say that the M3 isn't a great car would not be doing it justice either.

If they think that they're going to attract more customers with a fuel-efficient powertrain that also happens to output better numbers than whatever the M3's packing, they're going to take it, and the LF3 has the best chance of that.

The only chance the V8 has is if GM decides to have a boblutz moment at the last second at throw the corvette LT1 in there. I rather doubt that will happen, considering they want to not just win over N/A but win globally where gas is $9 a gallon. So I'm betting on an LF3.


Don't get me wrong.,

I completely understand and partially agree with your logic.

I love the idea of an LT1 ATS, it retains some american values in a compact platform. However, where our fantasies and reality come together the truth is that Cadillac has never been about using up what GM has to offer from the small block.There have been only 2 'mistakes' of this occurring in Cadillac's past, and it's only within the last decade where the northstar simply wasn't sufficient to provide the power they needed (because they used it in the STS)

They have throughout the decades intentionally gone out of their way to produce anti-LS engines. Be it the northstar, using the 3.6 LFX, or the various caddy- branded V8's from the 50s-80s. Cadillac has always been about doing it's own thing and trying to differentiate itself from the laymans corvette/truck motor. All of that was prior to them aggressively taking on europe.

JFJr
05-17-13, 07:50 PM
If Cadillac cared nothing about what the germans did. There would be no ATS, lets go further and say there would be no modern day Cadillac.

They're after 3 series buyers, not corvette V8 loving buyers.

Appreciation means nothing. Sales do.

Most M3 buyers don't drive their cars past road-racing and grocery getting.

I've seen 10 times as many E46 3 series cars than I have any make or model of M3 at the local autocross days.

You have the last word, as usual, but I hope that Cadillac is monitoring.

M5eater
05-17-13, 08:10 PM
You have the last word, as usual, but I hope that Cadillac is monitoring.
I don't mean to try getting the last word in. I simply enjoy talking with you!

and then editing my post to death..of course.

this definitely doesn't count as the last word.

nor this. Nevermind.

JFJr
05-17-13, 08:59 PM
I rest my case and adjourn to happy hour!

Jud

rand49er
05-17-13, 11:31 PM
both great points ... i wonder if this same conversation/discussion happened 6 months to a year ago in some conference room in one of the upper floors of the Renaissance CenterMy guess is that this argument/discussion has been going on longer than that and, if it's not still actively going on, it's still festering within those who've been overruled and are now silent.

As I read the posts above, I'm even more convinced the ATS-V motor will be the LF3. For those who have no intention on modding the motor, it should be very serviceable and satisfy 95+% of them. For those who intend to mod the motor, they will find it very easy just to increase the boost alone to get very nice power thereby satisfying 95+% of them. Let the Camaro crowd and the Vette crowd have the LSx motors. I'm not much of a Camaro fan, but an LSx powered Vette would be outstanding to me. Then, if technical improvements can stay ahead of CAFE standards, the ATS-V2 should knock your socks off.

thebigjimsho
05-18-13, 09:10 AM
Less words!

M5eater
05-18-13, 09:50 AM
Less words!
Shall I remind you of whom you're talking to?

thebigjimsho
05-19-13, 12:57 PM
wut.

Jinx
05-19-13, 06:06 PM
M5eater,

The VW GTI and Audi B5 are not comparable to the CTS-V, or even the upcoming ATS-V. You know why the tuner kids love those cars? Cheap speed, that's why. The B5 is 11-16 years old. Of course Cadillac doesn't have a comparable street scene -- the only thing it had then was the Catera. Also consider that Audi now is more upmarket than it was then. A new ATS-V with the LT1 would gather its own devoted following -- yes, overlapping with the rest of the Chevy smallblock marques, as if that's a bad thing. Of course the Caddy's following will be smaller and more well-heeled, not unlike the first-gen CTS-V following was... and over time, as the cars go second-hand and third-hand, it'll go from aspirational to affordable for the young turks who make street scenes vibrant and interesting. It doesn't need a blown V6 to do that.

Indeed, you seem to make this point yourself later, indicating the relative dearth of M3s in places "past road-racing and grocery getting." That's what happens when you go beyond the $50K mark -- fewer cars, and fewer of them knitted together in garage-mechanic crazy maniac communities. They exist (for Cadillac too), just not so thick as cars that younger guys with fewer obligations build up.

As for the supposed lack of individuality in the Chevy smallblock world, you need to get out more. First there's the fact that the Chevy smallblock is the go-to transplant engine. Visit YouTube and type in LS1 and see what you get. Next, consider how many different ways the Chevy smallblock can be tweaked. If you're not making 1000hp you're a nobody?? That's an elitist attitude; maybe you get that if you hang out with hardcore tuners with deep pockets, but come on, that's hardly the only experience out there. Most of us respect our fellow gearheads wherever they are on the tuning scale. Now it is true, if you want to be a big fish it's easier in a small pond, but fame is fleeting, and fun is more easily shared.

As for Cadillac's desire for exclusive powertrains, what can't be ignored is that the three products that brought Cadillac back from the dead are all powered by Chevy smallblocks -- Escalade, CTS-V 1, and CTS-V 2. When Cadillac insisted on having its own engine it didn't do as well: witness STS-V, XLR and XLR-V, and their last V6 turbo, the one-and-done 2.8L in the SRX.

I'm not saying the LF3 won't be successful under the hood of Cadillacs, but GM should beware choosing a less-powerful and less-proven engine for a performance halo car. No one will question the performance cred of a Cadillac with a Corvette engine.

Of course, GM Powertrain has been doing great things lately -- would it be too ironic to say they're firing on all cylinders? -- and a TTV6 ATS-V would be fun to drive and make the boost-nut 1% positively giddy. It just seems like an unnecessary risk on a product that cannot afford to come up short.

.Jinx

thebigjimsho
05-19-13, 06:11 PM
Mouthy.

M5eater
05-19-13, 06:22 PM
Mouthy.

no. that's how you post a response.

JFJr
05-19-13, 07:31 PM
My God, you young men eventually will learn that less words and more succinct argument will win the day, not rambling.

Jud

thebigjimsho
05-20-13, 09:16 AM
Surly.

M5eater
05-27-13, 06:34 PM
you know, I've had a change of heart, this thing really needs a V8. If It ends up with the LF3, I don't know, I might really just look for a used German V8 bruiser. Which is a shame because I want a damn american sports sedan with a damn american V8.

rolling on the stock mufflers with the V, I really just miss that noise way too much.

bruff1977
05-29-13, 04:03 AM
I don't like the notion of two ATS-Vs... And here's my reasoning. Because it should be unique and desirable from the launch (pun intended). Let the 'V' speak for itself. Look at the C63 coupe for example. I live in the Metro DC area and I have seen exactly ONE C63 coupe since its release. Simply put, they don't sell (here at least). But Daimler is aware that some want want more power/exclusivity. Hence the Black Series. If GM wants these to sell (no smallish true American performance sedan on market) it should be EXCLUSIVE and POWERFUL from the get go. Like it has always been.

M5eater
05-29-13, 07:54 AM
I don't like the notion of two ATS-Vs... And here's my reasoning. Because it should be unique and desirable from the launch (pun intended). Let the 'V' speak for itself. Look at the C63 coupe for example. I live in the Metro DC area and I have seen exactly ONE C63 coupe since its release. Simply put, they don't sell (here at least). But Daimler is aware that some want want more power/exclusivity. Hence the Black Series. If GM wants these to sell (no smallish true American performance sedan on market) it should be EXCLUSIVE and POWERFUL from the get go. Like it has always been.

The catch is that, a V8 version would (presumably) be no more powerful than the LF3 given that power estimates for this car are between 420-450 HP and the LT1 (in the corvette) was ratted for exactly 455/460 a few days ago.

a V8 ATS-V would simply a preference, not a performance trim package. Yes it might be an all-inclusive package that packs lots of options with it, but following those lines, I'd be fine with it, even thought I share you concerns in precisely the same manner; I really don't like the idea of owning a car that's not as great as it could have been.

JFJr
05-29-13, 05:34 PM
It will be very interesting in a year or so to find out what the real world mpg difference there is between the TTV6 and the LT1. I would bet that there's none or very little because TTV6 drivers will spend a lot of time in the significant boost range.

Jud

M5eater
05-29-13, 06:01 PM
There should be some difference but probably not as much as we think

The lt1 in a 3200lb vette has been estimated at 26mpg

The 3700-3800# vsport is rated for 17/25

My guess between 1-3mpg favoring the lf3

JFJr
05-29-13, 06:53 PM
There should be some difference but probably not as much as we think

The lt1 in a 3200lb vette has been estimated at 26mpg

The 3700-3800# vsport is rated for 17/25

My guess between 1-3mpg favoring the lf3

Well, we're talking about expectations for both engines. We have to compare equal total weights for both vehicles. I still think that the TTV6 will be worked harder than the LT1, reducing any actual difference. Anyway, I'm glad the TTV6 has been developed and it should be a success for the non-car "enthusiasts."

Jud

thebigjimsho
05-30-13, 11:45 AM
Maybe one will be an ATS-V V-sport and the other will be an ATS-V...

M5eater
05-30-13, 12:21 PM
Maybe one will be an ATS-V V-sport and the other will be an ATS-V...

It would be interesting to see where they take this new 'badge'. If it'll remain with the CTS( a waste) only or carry over to the ATS in some way.

the 3.6 RWD is already pretty performance packed.

I'm also surprised that they're shovelling 410 HP into the XTS. That's fantastic.

Jinx
05-30-13, 12:23 PM
The lt1 in a 3200lb vette has been estimated at 26mpg

But not officially rated yet. The outgoing Corvette does 16/26 -- you can bet your bottom dollar that, at the very least, the highway rating for the Active Fuel Management direct-injection seven-speed manual radiator-shuttered C7 will go up. I bet the city mileage goes up too.


The 3700-3800# vsport is rated for 17/25

With an eight-speed automatic.

I don't think we'll get close to apples-to-apples for these two powerplants, at least not until the new Camaro arrives.

thebigjimsho
05-30-13, 02:55 PM
What if there is AWD and an 8 speed auto tuned for efficiency? If using terminology like BMW, we could have...

The ATS-V.
The ATS-V V-Sport.
The ATS-V V-Sport x-drive.
The ATS-V V-Sport x-drive eco.

JFJr
05-30-13, 07:21 PM
What if there is AWD and an 8 speed auto tuned for efficiency? If using terminology like BMW, we could have...

The ATS-V.
The ATS-V V-Sport.
The ATS-V V-Sport x-drive.
The ATS-V V-Sport x-drive eco.

Ha haa! God help us from kraut salad!

M5eater
05-30-13, 08:25 PM
What if there is AWD and an 8 speed auto tuned for efficiency? If using terminology like BMW, we could have...

The ATS-V.
The ATS-V V-Sport.
The ATS-V V-Sport x-drive.
The ATS-V V-Sport x-drive eco.
http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/byo/lineslanding.aspx?namodelcode=133N
Don't forget about the Luxury, Base, Modern and regular sport lines.


There are acutally >5 different front fascias for the 328i alone.

KXAM
06-08-13, 12:30 PM
Rumors are rumors. Look how wrong so many were regarding the Corvette C7. I am a Corvette C6 owner as well as a new ATS owner. If GM is going to be making new engines for the C7, where else do you think they MAY USE THEM! If you look to to the ATS, it is a natural for it. Small, light in weight per hp produced with direct injection, etc. All the things a new ATS coupe could use to sell cars. GM is not going to drop and old school LS generation motor in a new ATS-V! LS motors will continue to do stout work in other GM cars and trucks. There will be a new LS7 put in the C7 ZO6 model and if they do a new ZR1, it will most likely be the new C7 motor but supercharged. They have great experience at that..!! My two cents... Keep in mind, the C7 will only sell 20,000 to 25,000 cars per year to begin with. That is not enough motor production for GM. Therefore, they stick them in other cars, like the ATS-V! That way they get to use more like 100,000 motors per year. That GM could most likely live with....

Jinx
06-08-13, 05:40 PM
The new-generation pickups will provide plenty of volume for the new smallblocks. The LT1 itself will surely wind up in the next-generation Camaro (about 42K my2011, 27K in my2012).

The ATS-V is probably not going to sell a lot of volume. It will owe a debt to its engine, moreso than the other way around.

Chrispy
11-26-13, 10:04 AM
If he ATS V is going to be competitive against the Germans it needs a 7 speed DCT minimum and a 450+ hp turbo 6 cylinder. It should also have some sort of AWD option as well.

If I was a betting man I'd guess a ZF sourced DCT and a 450-500hp turbocharged six will be offered. The big question is if they go long stroke 7k rpm redline) or short stroke (closer to 8K rpm redline)

AWD, 450hp plus, DCT, latest mag ride control tech and light weight will be a M3 killer on the track and street.

rand49er
11-26-13, 05:11 PM
AWD? Don't hold your breath.

Avery323
11-26-13, 10:36 PM
ATS Coupe announced for NAIAS. But what about the V?! The LA Auto Show is here and almost gone, NAIAS is right around the corner and it is CRICKETS as far as the V announcement hints...

rand49er
11-28-13, 11:43 AM
Just like back in late '07 prior to when the '09 V2 engine (LSA) was announced ... "crickets."

Yup ... unless we can believe that 3.2 TTV6 rumor. :bouncy:

bluecrayon
12-05-13, 01:10 AM
AWD? Don't hold your breath.

Really!?? Is this true? I just assumed they would offer awd. I really need awd in buffalo. I really want an ats-v next. The cts-v is not awd, while the cts vsport is, the cost is 70k.

rand49er
12-05-13, 09:01 AM
... I really need awd in buffalo ...Buffalo? You need a Jeep-V.

Seriously, I'm just assuming no AWD availability for an ATS-V based on GM's past offerings (CTS-V, STS-V, XLR-V, Vette, etc). Probably more likely with AT than MT, but let's hope for a full offering. With effective launch control, it's possible.

roadpie4u
12-05-13, 12:51 PM
Really!?? Is this true? I just assumed they would offer awd. I really need awd in buffalo. I really want an ats-v next. The cts-v is not awd, while the cts vsport is, the cost is 70k.
I have a RWD M6 ATS and I was fine last winter with dedicated snow tires. I'm also of the opinion that if you can buy a $45k car (which comes with dedicated summer performance tires) you can either afford a winter car or winter wheels/tires. The ATS-V is going to be a much more expensive car, so the rule applies double.

There's a GOOD reason the "V" series and Corvette dont have AWD, just ask Nissan - the GTR is pretty much $50,000 more than a Corvette.


Seriously, I'm just assuming no AWD availability for an ATS-V based on GM's past offerings (CTS-V, STS-V, XLR-V, Vette, etc). Probably more likely with AT than MT, but let's hope for a full offering. With effective launch control, it's possible.
It's possible but notice how Nissan's 500hp car with AWD costs $100,000 and doesn't really have any outrageous equipment or a crazy elaborate interior with exotic materials.

The problem is reliability with AWD systems and high power - they just don't handle it all that well - and thus the manufacturer needs to price the car in order to recover the inevitable warranty costs (notice the GTR's sticker price shot up by $30,000 in a few years?).

If they included AWD in the ATS-V, it'd end up being a much more expensive car and I dont think GM wants to do that right now. Maybe by the 2nd gen ATS-V...

rand49er
12-05-13, 04:46 PM
... There's a GOOD reason the "V" series and Corvette dont have AWD, just ask Nissan - the GTR is pretty much $50,000 more than a Corvette.


It's possible but notice how Nissan's 500hp car with AWD costs $100,000 ...Nissan had some big issues with their GTR in the beginning with guys launching the car (presumably to match the 0-60 times Nissan advertised) and destroying the tranny. I don't know much about Outtie's experience (i.e. failure rate) with their Quattro.

Truly, that's one hell of jolt to the drivetrain when you dump the clutch at, say, 5k RPM and ask all four tires to respond.

roadpie4u
12-06-13, 12:40 PM
I don't know much about Outtie's experience (i.e. failure rate) with their Quattro.
It's hard to do good data comparisons because of how few AWD cars have over 400hp, but in general AWD transaxles fail more frequently than transmissions - how much depends on the manufacturer and vehicle weight/power of course. Audi's high end stuff has the engineering advantage of being part of the VW/Audi/Lambo family, and that means they've got more high power vehicles to deal with and the budgets to match - Nissan pretty much just had the GTR.


Truly, that's one hell of jolt to the drivetrain when you dump the clutch at, say, 5k RPM and ask all four tires to respond.
No kidding. In my younger days with AWD Eagle Talons and such you could do that but you had to realize you'd blow out a CV joint every few times you did it. The solution was to buy axles with lifetime warranties and get REALLY good at swapping them. :)

jmm95
12-14-13, 11:17 PM
the new lt1 is lighter than the bmw 4.4 v8 tt and has smaller external dimensions, comparable economy and is simpler. the lower height also makes for lower center of gravity.

caddy_ats
03-01-14, 02:18 PM
Good read thanks for posting!

BeltlessBoost
03-17-14, 01:11 PM
the new lt1 is lighter than the bmw 4.4 v8 tt and has smaller external dimensions, comparable economy and is simpler. the lower height also makes for lower center of gravity.

You forgot +100hp less too. My buddy has a new M5 and just got it dyno'd with a tune and catback, 650rwhp/590rwtq thru a manual trans. BMW underrated them from the factory, a lot dyno at 550rwhp when they're rated at 560 fly wheel. Huge gains from just a tune and little exhaust, that's the beauty of booster cars, you'll never get that from an NA car.

M5eater
03-17-14, 06:54 PM
You forgot +100hp less too. My buddy has a new M5 and just got it dyno'd with a tune and catback, 650rwhp/590rwtq thru a manual trans. BMW underrated them from the factory, a lot dyno at 550rwhp when they're rated at 560 fly wheel. Huge gains from just a tune and little exhaust, that's the beauty of booster cars, you'll never get that from an NA car.
How much did that cost him though?
People are forking over $2K+ for tunes and $2-5K for exhausts in Audi land, and that's with an equally capable 4.0T in a ''cheaper'' S6/S7/RS7 with a larger enthusiast aftermarket

The LT won't be able to match pure value per dollar, but given the LS's success as an enthusiasts platform(probably the most potent and widely used platform for the last decade) , I'll take the titanic sized cheap aftermarket support(from the trucks and camaro sales) over an expensive quickie boost job from a low volume motor that has a 50% luxury tax, LF3 included( but may be offset from use in other GM vehicles, hopefully like the camaro)

rand49er
03-18-14, 11:09 PM
You forgot +100hp less too. My buddy has a new M5 and just got it dyno'd with a tune and catback, 650rwhp/590rwtq thru a manual trans. BMW underrated them from the factory, a lot dyno at 550rwhp when they're rated at 560 fly wheel. Huge gains from just a tune and little exhaust, that's the beauty of booster cars, you'll never get that from an NA car.That is pretty incredible!

But, I have to echo, at what cost? What about BMW's warranty, i.e. how are the dealers with a tune like that?

You're right about NA. Tweaking a boosted motor is so much more rewarding.

DiabloMike
03-21-14, 10:17 PM
Did everyone see the potential engine lineup for the new Camaro that will be built on the ATS current chassis?
2.0t, 3.6, 3.6tt, 6.2, 6.2SC, AND a new 7.0 LS7 replacement. If it's true, and it will fit in the next gen Camaro, it would be really cool to see it in an ATS variant. Food for thought ;)

mikesul
03-22-14, 01:50 PM
The 7.0 is the Corvette Z06 engine put into the new Z28. Won't use it in the Corvette in the future, and I guess they don't want to stop production on it yet.

DiabloMike
03-22-14, 08:33 PM
The 7.0 is the Corvette Z06 engine put into the new Z28. Won't use it in the Corvette in the future, and I guess they don't want to stop production on it yet.the LS7 in the current z/28 is the same as the C6 Z06 based LS7 as far as I have seen. This sounded like a new 7.0 to replace the existing LS7. A direct injected 427 LS would indeed be sick.

JFJr
03-22-14, 08:53 PM
the LS7 in the current z/28 is the same as the C6 Z06 based LS7 as far as I have seen. This sounded like a new 7.0 to replace the existing LS7. A direct injected 427 LS would indeed be sick.

And sick enough to be the ATS-V engine. That's it. Imagine the performance and the great support from car guys.

krummel21
04-11-14, 04:09 PM
Cadillac lost me, I'm going with the c7

JFJr
04-11-14, 07:29 PM
Cadillac lost me, I'm going with the c7

Can't blame you for that if we are presented with an ATS-V with a V6. I might do the same.

listrats
04-14-14, 09:09 PM
What's the issue with a TTV6 lol. This car already has decent pickup in a 2.0T I see a 3.6TT as way beyond capable

JFJr
04-14-14, 09:21 PM
What's the issue with a TTV6 lol. This car already has decent pickup in a 2.0T I see a 3.6TT as way beyond capable

Well LOL yourself. Have you ever owned a V2, much less driven one, longer than around the block. A V6 is not appropriate for a true V, but maybe a Vsport is ok for the country club set. Unless you know the difference, you have no clue.

M5eater
04-14-14, 10:15 PM
What's the issue with a TTV6 lol. This car already has decent pickup in a 2.0T I see a 3.6TT as way beyond capable
Mercedes C63 507.

That is all.

listrats
04-15-14, 04:44 AM
Well LOL yourself. Have you ever owned a V2, much less driven one, longer than around the block. A V6 is not appropriate for a true V, but maybe a Vsport is ok for the country club set. Unless you know the difference, you have no clue.

We'll if this m4 is supposed to be setting standards and BMW gets all the rave reviews they managed it with a V6. No I have not owned a CTS V but I own an ATS and between that, driving the v8 cam ark and some research and reviews I came to an educated guess that a twin turbo v6 ATS is far from "slow"

----------


Mercedes C63 507. That is all.

Isn't that car a special edition of the regular AMG. I would consider that an equivalent to the rumored ATS V+... And yes in that cAse if they want to compete you have to throw a supercharged v8 in there.

M5eater
04-15-14, 07:57 AM
Isn't that car a special edition of the regular AMG. I would consider that an equivalent to the rumored ATS V+... And yes in that cAse if they want to compete you have to throw a supercharged v8 in there.[
Ehh, I would call the 507 an ATS-V ++
The AMG performance pack C63 adds ~ 30HP and some SLS parts with an increased top speed limiter

The black edition was of course the race prepped version.

The 507 uses Black edition parts in a more streetable car.

GM could make a 507 competitor out of an LT1 with a hot cam and tweaking, but by the time they're ready to introduce such they'll have a new powertrain to deal with.

Guy.Seminerio
04-15-14, 09:46 AM
Let's not forget that as of right now, BMW is the only one who has abandoned the almighty v8 in this segment.

M5eater
04-15-14, 09:51 AM
Let's not forget that as of right now, BMW is the only one who has abandoned the almighty v8 in this segment.

Yup, and let's not forget about the RCF, with it's tweaked 480HP 5.0L V8.

JFJr
05-01-14, 11:54 AM
If you go to the Hennessey site you will find a slot for the ATS-V and mention of mods to come for the TTV6. Do those folks have advance knowledge? If so that moves me even closer to a 2015 Z51 C7.

Jud

roadpie4u
05-01-14, 01:37 PM
If you go to the Hennessey site you will find a slot for the ATS-V and mention of mods to come for the TTV6. Do those folks have advance knowledge?
They're just mentioning the common theory they've read elsewhere - GM isn't sharing any details with anyone. Even a lot of tier 1 suppliers are in the dark.

rand49er
05-02-14, 11:50 AM
... GM isn't sharing any details with anyone. Even a lot of tier 1 suppliers are in the dark.I love that there's no news. Means it's going to be better than we had hoped ... even if it is going to be a TTV6.