: 472, how to boost fuel economy?



3dfx
12-19-12, 02:05 PM
Hi

I have -69 De Ville. When i bought it, car was not maintained in ages and it had very bad fuel economy, 12MPG in road drive.

Well, I replaced old airfilter and oilfilter (+oil of course) with new ones and economy went little better (13MPG).

Is there any way to lower the MPG? I have heard some people get 17 or even 18MPG fuel comsumination? With todays gas prices (1,7€/litre here in Finland, if i calculated correctly, that would mean, 8,6$/gallon:bonkers:)

Maybe I should change some ignition components such as spark plugs and breaker points. At least those looked pretty old. Are there any differences between different sparkplugs? Can I get any benefit from sparkplugs like iridium or platinum with my mechanical ignition system, or should I just buy traditional plugs like AC Delco?

I think my ignition timing is too early (something like 30-50 degrees early). Does this effect much to fuel consume?

Second thing is the carburetor. I think I'm going to do some mainteance in there too and change at least the float needle valve. I checked my cars emissions in local garage, and they were very nice, so air/gas mixtures are fine. What other things I should change there?


Are there any other things what would affect to fuel economy? I dont have EGR, Pulse air systems or any other emission control equipment.

PS. Sorry if my english was bad

j2rossit
12-19-12, 03:20 PM
Welcome to the forum.
What kind of driving are these values calculated from?
12-13mpg city driving would be fantastic.
if it's on the highway, what speed? What are your driving habits?
How are the tires? bald or low pressure tires use a lot more gas.
Timing will most certainly affect fuel efficiency.
If your ignition components look old, they would be one of the first things I'd replace regardless of efficiency considerations.

bigm57ict
12-19-12, 04:34 PM
You may be able to achieve small improvements in fuel economy, but for the car you have, 12-13 is about normal.
By all means, perfect the timing, tire pressure, etc, but don't expect great gains from it.

drmenard
12-19-12, 05:29 PM
I am a old school type of guy. And a lot of guys with these motors use old style copper plugs, and I did for many years... But a year and a half ago I put in a set of denso iridium... They have been working great and would recomend using the denso plugs...I would also recomend a HEI distrubtor with the vacume advance hooked direct to manifold vacume.. do not go through the temp switches.. Make sure that the distrubtor weights are free and working correctly.. I would set the timing like this... disconnect vacume advance vac hose... rev the motor to 2500rpm or till you are at max centrifical advance and setr te timing to 35 degrees... If it pings back it off till it stops... but with 93 octane it should be ok.. If you are forced to use 87 octane it is going to be very hard with a carb... A bit eazier with fuel injection..

talismandave
12-19-12, 05:33 PM
Drive downhill?:noidea:

Actually 12 -13 sounds pretty good as the guys were saying. If you know someone who go 17 I would doubt he was being honest with you. Or he had a different newer car with an overdrive transmission.

77CDV
12-19-12, 10:49 PM
On the open highway, in perfect tune and under optimal conditions, your car will *maybe* hit 16mpg. In mixed driving, 12-13mpg is pretty standard. Fuel efficient, these cars are not. :D

carnut
12-20-12, 02:08 AM
All you can do is make sure the tires are at proper pressure, points and vacuum advance are new, distributor weights free. Points dwell at 30 degrees. Timing at spec or 2 degrees advanced. Wheel alignment to spec. Drive like you have an egg under your foot! If the smog readings are good then the carb float and needle and seat are good. Make sure the 4 bolts holding the carb are tight, most are 2 turns loose. You will get many opinions regarding spark plugs. In my opinion, use A/C Delco's as recommended.

Aron9000
12-20-12, 03:06 AM
12-13mpg sounds about right for that engine. Also keep in mind that you need to put a lead additive in the gas if the car still has its original valve seats. I know if you ever have the heads rebuilt they'll put in hardened valve seats like modern cars have so it will run fine on unleaded gas.

CADforce69
12-20-12, 07:25 AM
I have a '69 Sedan de Ville: New tires with right pressure, new points, sparks, rotor, points, distributor cap... The best mileage I did is 11 mpg during my first travel from the city I bought it to home. 80-90 Kmph. before changing all the components above mentioned. Now at 100-110 Kmph never better than 10 mpg. (Sorry, I can´t enjoy it going slower :D)

Things I could improve on my car: better spark plugs (Now I have Motorcraft, that I don´t think are the best for this car) and carburetor, though I don´t have any driving or starting problems with it, but the mechanic advised me to change it when I can afford it.

I know it´s hard driving these cars here in Europe: 1.37 € / Liter in Spain but lower salaries (and keep lowering due to the rampant crisis).

Welcome to the forum and please, upload some pics of your car. This is my resto thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/232166-69-sedan-de-ville-official-restoration.html You may take a look when you have some time ;)

By the way, You can rent your car for weddings or other events. That way you will drive your caddy on these occasions without any worry about mileage. Some weeks ago I did 225 kilometers during a wedding transportation. Gas paid and some profit to help maintenance :D

Cady70
12-20-12, 09:30 AM
Pull the motor out and put it into a Honda Civic. You might pick up a few MPGs.
Maybe you could pull off the quadrajet and put a 2 barrel carb on.

deVille33
12-21-12, 10:54 AM
Pull the motor out and put it into a Honda Civic. You might pick up a few MPGs.
Maybe you could pull off the quadrajet and put a 2 barrel carb on.

You have to realize these are heavy cars and the engine produces the torque necessary to move it smoothly, with little effort. The Rochester Quardrajet front two venturi are most efficient and offer better fuel economy than most 2 bbl carbs on the market. In fact the two rear venturi are only in use on demand, when the air flow exceeds the capacity of the front venturi. They are subject to wear at the main throttle shaft bores.
To check throttle shaft bore wear, remove the air filter and with the engine at idle, gently lift the main throttle shaft on the driver side of the carb at the lever for the throttle linkage. If worn excessively, the excess air drawn in arount the shaft and bore may cause the engine to lean out. If there is little free play here, your carb body/shaft is in good condition.

Alscad56
12-21-12, 04:27 PM
If you want to keep the original engine, in my opinion, the only way to significantly increase gas mileage is to get a transmission adapter for your engine, and bolt up a 700R4 automatic transmission behind it. That way, you'll at least get overdrive. That should bring up the mileage a few notches.
My 1956 Cad has one and I get between 19-21 mpg/ highway driving...and this car weighs over 5000 pounds.

cadillac kevin
12-21-12, 07:15 PM
If you want to keep the original engine, in my opinion, the only way to significantly increase gas mileage is to get a transmission adapter for your engine, and bolt up a 700R4 automatic transmission behind it. That way, you'll at least get overdrive. That should bring up the mileage a few notches.
My 1956 Cad has one and I get between 19-21 mpg/ highway driving...and this car weighs over 5000 pounds.

Thats pretty good mileage for a large vehicle. Wonder what mileage a 500 would get with an overdrive trans.

Fleet
12-21-12, 09:18 PM
Motor Trend's test car (a '69 Coupe de Ville) gave 9.2 to 11.8 mpg. The low figure was obviously recorded during acceleration tests and the high figure was probably mixed driving but not 100% highway driving.

jayoldschool
12-21-12, 09:33 PM
If you want to keep the original engine, in my opinion, the only way to significantly increase gas mileage is to get a transmission adapter for your engine, and bolt up a 700R4 automatic transmission behind it. That way, you'll at least get overdrive. That should bring up the mileage a few notches.
My 1956 Cad has one and I get between 19-21 mpg/ highway driving...and this car weighs over 5000 pounds.

This will not work without changing the rear gears. The gears are very high (low numerically), so OD will be useless. Cadillac was already doing everything they could to get mileage out of their cars by this point. The 56 Cad benefited because it has a gear set in the mid 3s, while the car in question will have a low 2 gear set.

In my opinion, just make sure everything is in top running order. It is good that you can have your exhaust gas emissions monitored, this will greatly help with tuning. Fresh plugs, properly gapped, wires, cap, rotor, set timing. If still running a cat (and in Europe, I suspect you are), you will see a benefit to going to a modern monolith cat instead of the old restrictive pellet type. A little more efficiency can be gained by a freer flowing exhaust. If you can't do full duals, you can do a very nice two into one into duals:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/jayoldschool/13.jpg

The best to hope for

Ranger
12-21-12, 10:05 PM
Been a looong time since I've had (or even seen) an 472, but I has two and I do remember being happy when I got mine "UP TO" 12-13 MPG. Those puppies where not made for economy.

Alscad56
12-22-12, 01:41 AM
This will not work without changing the rear gears. The gears are very high (low numerically), so OD will be useless. Cadillac was already doing everything they could to get mileage out of their cars by this point. The 56 Cad benefited because it has a gear set in the mid 3s, while the car in question will have a low 2 gear set.


Actually, my '56 has 3.07, which is the original gear. What are the gears of a 69? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but FWB, Roadmaster and Caprice's have 2.56 and 2.93 gears as hwy option for better mileage, with a 700R4 or 4L60E (same basic trans.). This combination gives the best highway mileage than with mid-3's and higher gears. You only lose out a little on acceleration. Since I've changed to 3.23 gears (from 2.56) in my 94 Fleetwood, the mileage dropped slightly,but performance increased. You also have to put the correct torque converter with the proper lock-up.[COLOR="Silver"]

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I just looked it up and apparently, the 69 Cadillac has a 2.94 ratio, so putting a 700R4 with proper torque converter lock-up should improve mileage.

Aron9000
12-22-12, 02:42 AM
This will not work without changing the rear gears. The gears are very high (low numerically), so OD will be useless. Cadillac was already doing everything they could to get mileage out of their cars by this point. The 56 Cad benefited because it has a gear set in the mid 3s, while the car in question will have a low 2 gear set.

In my opinion, just make sure everything is in top running order. It is good that you can have your exhaust gas emissions monitored, this will greatly help with tuning. Fresh plugs, properly gapped, wires, cap, rotor, set timing. If still running a cat (and in Europe, I suspect you are), you will see a benefit to going to a modern monolith cat instead of the old restrictive pellet type. A little more efficiency can be gained by a freer flowing exhaust. If you can't do full duals, you can do a very nice two into one into duals:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/jayoldschool/13.jpg

The best to hope for

Jay, his car is a 1969 with the 472, no cat converters. I looked it up, the standard rear gear ratio for a 1969 is a 2.94:1(I'm sure other shorter ratios were optional), so no need to swap rear ends if he installs an overdrive tranny. In 1969 Cadillac didn't give a damn about such things as emissions or gas mileage. That's why I love the old 1960's Caddys, you couldn't buy a car that screamed louder "F you damn dirty hippies!!!"

As far as overdrive trannies go, a stock 700R4 might be a bit weak, this car made over 500lb-ft torque stock. I'm sure a built 700R4 would hold up, but I'd go with a 4L80, that's GM's heavy duty overdrive they put into 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and vans. Very hard to break a 4L80, they are way more durable than a 700R4 or 4L60e. Also of note that Bentley used the 4L80e on its Arnage, that car had a 6.75 liter twin turbo v8 making 450hp and 646lb-ft torque. Like I said, you aren't going to break a 4L80e

cadchris
12-22-12, 03:13 AM
Wow, everyone already posted some of my ideas and I give them credit. Your getting very good advice here.

This turned out to be a long post of info! I'm sure there will be those who wish I didn't post it because its' so long, but it should be very informative for all.......
Grab some coffee's, tea's, or beers because by the time everyone gets through this long post your going to be WIRED :banana: and DRUNK!:alchi: or a little Brain Fried! :bulging:

I just like to post back-up info and links to what I'm talking about so everyone can make better decisions......I love new automotive technology and apply it to old cars!

I'd stay with the Delco plugs, and go 1-2 ranges colder then bump up timing to see what you can get without detonation and lean out the carb.....Old saying "Lean Is Mean"!

One of the best ways to tune even a carburated engine on the road is with a WideBand O2 sensor. They're pretty affordable now. The best one is made by INNOVATE:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/


Here's one for $167 U.S. Ebay has many listed.
http://preracing.com/product_info.php/innovate-dbred-gauge-lc1-kit-wideband-oxygen-sensor-p-1573

Definitely do an HEI Distributor! Maybe with an adjustable vacuum advance....I think Crane makes them.


Here's some very good info on 472 HEI Conversion!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/41240-68-472-hei-conversion.html

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/30891-hei-installed.html

"Look for a 74-79 Cadillac with a 472/500/425 for the HEI Distributor".......
http://caddy500.com/index.php?topic=1047.0



HEI Distributors 472:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/year/1969/make/cadillac/model/deville/department/ignitions-electrical/part-type/distributors

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8363/overview/year/1969/make/cadillac/model/deville


Transmission:

Go with the 700R4 transmission if it can be adapted but it will need to be built stronger to handle the power/torque of the 472 engine. Transmission Center lists many upgrades for a 700R4 also known as the 4L60.

Maybe post your question here: http://forums.500cid.com/showthread.php?t=636

Ask these guys at Transmission Center:
http://transmissioncenter.net/700R4_Swap_Info.htm

Maybe go from the 3.94:1 gears down to 3.08's or lower...not sure what will fit that rear axle.


There is also a transmission device called "Gear Vendors" which will give you an external over-drive on your TH400 Transmission. It will actually turn your 3 speed into a 6 speed automatic! See videos for explanation especially the video titled "Two Guys Garage" on this page:
http://www.gearvendors.com/videoclips.html

Carburetor:

Edlebrock Manifold with an Edlebrock Carb: That should increase fuel efficiency.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/cadillac/performer.shtml

Edlebrock Carbs:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/carbs_access_main.shtml

As mentioned before, you could always do fuel injection. There are many aftermarket easy to install and self learning performance fuel injection kits on both port injection or a "Throttle Body" setup which would improve fuel efficiancy. Edlebrock sells EFI kits, including full crate motors, HEI ignitions, ect.......

Or you could always put a fully built LS Motor in, and is already tuned with and ECM controller from GM Performance Parts::worship:
http://www.gmperformancemotor.com/category/ERODE.html


Sorry..........got carried away.........this stuff cost a lot of money!:bouncy: :duh:


Anyway, back to basics...just like you were advised to replace many of the tune-up parts, My rational that I'm a huge advocate of:

"Clean the motor out to improve on its efficiency then use a high end Synthetic Oil."

Below are some basic cleaning procedures to perform on your engine. Maybe you already have done this to some extent......

#1. What is the health of your motor?

#2. Does it burn oil?

#3. Have you performed a compression test both hot and cold and have you ever had a leak-down test?

#4. Have you ever had this motor run on an Ignition Scope which will tell you almost everything of the condition of the mechanical, fuel system, and ignition system?

It would be great if you could find a repair shop with either an old fashion Ignition Scope or even a modern day fancy scope like these. One is called a ACE Misfire and the other is popular in Europe called a Pico Scope that can do everything from compression test, to ignition scope and is very simple. For a small shop fee, it can give you a wealth of info very quickly about your motor both mechanical and ignition:
http://acemisfire.com/D_Kit

http://www.picoauto.com/engine-diagnostics-sensor.html

http://www.picoauto.com/automotive-software.html


#5. Have you ever had the heads off to see if the valves and piston tops are loaded with thick carbon?

Carbon on the backs of valves and on the tops of pistons really affects fuel efficiancey. The carbon on the tops of the pistons raises the compression ratio which requires more fuel to stop detonation or, you will find yourself retarding the ignition timing to stop the detonation which greatly affects the motors efficiency. Carbon on the back of the intake valve will act like a sponge and soak up your fuel charge and again cause inefficient combustion.

#6. Have you ever de-carboned this motor?

Here in the U.S., there are a few ways to de-carbonize an engine. The first and slowest way is to use a fuel tank additive that contains a high concentration of PEA (Poly Ether Amine) which was developed by Chevron in the 1970's when the U.S switched to Un-leaded fuel with this additive to help eliminate the carbon problems. This product was called and trademarked as TECHRON. Gas that contained lead actually left a coating on the valves, pistons, combustion chamber which prevented carbon from hardening and building up. Here's a good explanation:
http://www.techron.com/what-does-it-do/default.aspx#

Today, many fuel tank additives contain PEA to break down combustion chamber/intake valve carbon, but most are proprietary in concentration. One additive that has the highest in by RedLine SI-1 which is the strongest detergent with PEA available at around 45%-50%. Techron by the bottle has been rumored to only have around 30%.

Fuels around the world use low concentrations of PEA like Shell, Texaco, Chevron with a concentration of around 3-5% or more at the pump depending on what other countries require. Here's an explanation called TOP TIER GAS: http://www.toptiergas.com/

All about the effects of Carbon:
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/052008_09.pdf
or
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1317

There are also products to quickly de-carbon a motor that are slowly poured into the Carburetor/Throttle Body. The most popular product in the U.S. is called Sea Foam. The best product was sold by GM and Cadillac Dealers for years and has been discontinued due to environmental laws since it created toxic fumes/smoke: "GM Top End Cleaner" was a very popular treatment for almost every car being serviced in the dealership and was used for years. Maybe your GM dealer in Europe still sells it: (GM Part# 1050002) or (part# 12345089).
Maybe try E-bay in Europe!

If you do a search on "GM Top End Cleaner", you will see many forums talking about its use. Here's one popular forum using other known good products like Amsoil Power Foam, Mopar cleaner, Johnson-Evenrude cleaner for decarbonizing boat motors.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1630937&page=1


Basically when using a "pour-down-throttle body/carb" product, the engine must be warm, then raise the engine to 1500-2000 RPM then slowly pour the product down the carb. and it will smoke heavily. When your almost finished with the product, pour last 1/4 of can in quickly to stall the motor and let it sit for 24-48hrs +. Then start it up, and rev it.....the exhaust will really smoke ....then fill the can with water, and raise the RPM's and slowly pour water down the carb while revving the motor. This is an old trick that even GM advocated in order to steam the carbon off the pistons.

There are also other alternative "pour in throttle body/carburetor" type cleaners that maybe you are familiar with called Lubro-Moly Ventil Sauber made in Germany. See here:
http://blog.bavauto.com/5000/bmw-mini-ventil-sauber-hot-soak-engine-carbon-cleaning/

Liqui-Moly also has other very good products like their oil additive called MoS2 but you may not be able to use it and should ask them if you should use only an additive with ZDDP to protect your old camshaft.
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_1011.html?Opendocument&land=GB&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf

Pg.1 http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_additives_nt0001e4fe.html?Opendocument&land=GB&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf

Pg.2 http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_additives_nt0001e4fe.html?Open&land=GB&site=2&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf

I would even consider using a product to clean the oiling system up and which supposedly cleans the pistons ring packs. An old and popular product sold in the US is called Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) and another product that seems to be advocated is called AutoRX. Many people talk about it on an Oil Review Forum called "BOB IS THE OIL GUY" .
http://www.auto-rx.com/instructions.shtml

Recently, I purchased this machine here in the U.S. for fuel injection called Terra Clean after reading about it in that "MOTOR Magazine" article I posted above. I got a new $1000 machine for $125 on Ebay!!!!! A few years ago, it was reviewed on our automotive TV shows but never caught on but is very popular in Canada. This de-carbonizing machine is very different from other machines on the market and they can also do this treatment on a carburated engine:

TerraClean U.S.A site: http://www.terraclean.net/news.php
TerraClean U.K. site http://www.terraclean.co.uk/

Here are some pretty intelligent people who discuss lubricants ect and another good product to clean the motor is called KREEN:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2250864&page=1



Synthetic Oil with ZDDP:
Amsoil synthetic engine oil, trans fluid, axle fluid or some other high end synthetic available in Europe but use one with high levels of ZDDP which is needed and protects older motors camshafts ect.

http://classiccars.about.com/od/maintenancetips/a/Zddp-Debunking-The-Urban-Legend-This-Motor-Oil-Additive.htm

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/z-rod-10w-30-synthetic-motor-oil/

Amsoil Nano Air Filters to keeps the oil very clean and are high flowing vs. K&N:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/filters-and-by-pass-systems/air/amsoil-ea-carbureted-engine-air-filters-and-kits/

http://www.hotrodhotline.com/pr/2009/09zzdpoilmarch/

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_engineoils4stroke_nt0001edae.html?Open&land=GB&site=1&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf



Again: My rational, is to try and clean the motor out to improve on its efficiency then use a high end Synthetic Oil including a small amount of Redline Si-1 Fuel cleaner or other additive with PEA in every tank full of fuel to keep everything clean and/or even a lead substitute in the fuel.


I hope some of this info helps,

Regards,
Chris

cadchris
12-22-12, 03:34 AM
There are so many ways to increase fuel efficiency of an old motor..........

Another idea that I'm doing on my 91 Brougham is to convert over to electric fans to decrease the load on the belt drive. My 91 Brougham uses a HUGE mechanical fan but with a fan clutch. I bought the Flex-A-Lite #294 which is their quieter version fan with an "S" Blade design.
http://automotive.flex-a-lite.com/dual-15-inch-s-blade-electric-fan-system-with-full-shroud-and-variable-speed-controller.html

From different articles I read mostly with Trucks that do the conversion, there is a small gain in Horsepower/Torque and small gain in fuel efficiancy.

It states the #480 electric fan on this page will fit the 1969 Deville, but I'd check to see if you could install the larger #294 for better cooling and lower A/C temps by moving more air past the condensor which is another reason I bought that fan since I converted my a/C to 134a freon that does not blow as cold.
http://automotive.flex-a-lite.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=1969%3ACADILLAC%3ADeVille

Here are some other links:
http://www.truckinweb.com/tech/engine/0809tr_ford_f150_radiator_fan_install/viewall.html

http://flex-a-lite-blog.com/2012/02/24/battle-higher-fuel-prices-with-an-electric-fan/

http://flex-a-lite-blog.com/2010/08/05/real-world-fuel-economy-gains/

http://www.off-road.com/diesel/tech/dodge-cummins-flexalite-electric-fan-install-23682.html

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I totally agree with you.............The 4L80 is the best transmission. I need to have my 700r4 built up, but if I go with a larger motor someday, it will have the 4L80!


Jay, his car is a 1969 with the 472, no cat converters. I looked it up, the standard rear gear ratio for a 1969 is a 2.94:1(I'm sure other shorter ratios were optional), so no need to swap rear ends if he installs an overdrive tranny. In 1969 Cadillac didn't give a damn about such things as emissions or gas mileage. That's why I love the old 1960's Caddys, you couldn't buy a car that screamed louder "F you damn dirty hippies!!!"

As far as overdrive trannies go, a stock 700R4 might be a bit weak, this car made over 500lb-ft torque stock. I'm sure a built 700R4 would hold up, but I'd go with a 4L80, that's GM's heavy duty overdrive they put into 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and vans. Very hard to break a 4L80, they are way more durable than a 700R4 or 4L60e. Also of note that Bentley used the 4L80e on its Arnage, that car had a 6.75 liter twin turbo v8 making 450hp and 646lb-ft torque. Like I said, you aren't going to break a 4L80e

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This site says the 69 Deville had 3.94:1.................where did everyone else find their info?
http://www.oldride.com/library/1969_cadillac_deville.html
I would think that car had the 3.94's with the 472 to Haul' A.S.S. back then before the fuel crisis.....:burn:


2.94:1 here:
http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/prod1969cadi.html

Also 2.94:1 here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/180491-1969-deville-rear-axle.html

Wow....7.3mpg:
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/cadillac/de_ville_1965-1970/de_ville_1965-1970_hardtop_coupe/1969.html

2.94 again:
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

He should verify it anyway to see what's in that Deville.


Performance Specs. 0-60 8.1? 1/4 ml. 15.8? :hmm:
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_perf1.php

Alscad56
12-22-12, 12:24 PM
[QUOTE=cadchris;3172858]




[/COLOR]This site says the 69 Deville had 3.94:1.................where did everyone else find their info?
http://www.oldride.com/library/1969_cadillac_deville.html
I would think that car had the 3.94's with the 472 to Haul' A.S.S. back then before the fuel crisis.....:burn:


2.94:1 here:
http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/prod1969cadi.html

Also 2.94:1 here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/180491-1969-deville-rear-axle.html

Wow....7.3mpg:
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/cadillac/de_ville_1965-1970/de_ville_1965-1970_hardtop_coupe/1969.html

2.94 again:
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

He should verify it anyway to see what's in that Deville.


QUOTE]

I have a 1967 Cadillac shop manual and it says (for 1967 anyways) the diff ratios are: 2.94:1, 3.21:1, and 3.36:1.
So I tend to agree with the specs of the 69 being 2.94:1.:yawn:

jayoldschool
12-22-12, 12:45 PM
Oops, I read the original post a few days ago, then responded later. Somehow I was thinking of later mid 70s 472s when I posted. Yes, if the rear ratio is in the 3s, OD will help. OR, swap in one of the high gear sets from a mid 70s-81 car. Your acceleration will not be as brisk, but you will see the same effective final drive ratio as the OD swap. It will also cost less, and will swap right in with no mods to the car.

carnut
12-22-12, 12:53 PM
IMO the cost and labor of an electric fan will never be realized at the gas pump. Adding electrical parts over pure mechanical operation is just bragging rights. You still must use the shroud to direct the air to the motor by the way.

Aron9000
12-22-12, 06:06 PM
IMO the cost and labor of an electric fan will never be realized at the gas pump. Adding electrical parts over pure mechanical operation is just bragging rights. You still must use the shroud to direct the air to the motor by the way.

I'm thinking the main reason to do an electrical fan would be to reduce noise. The mechanical fan on my old 91 with the 350 was LOUD!

3dfx
12-22-12, 07:08 PM
Thanks for all for your answers!


If still running a cat (and in Europe, I suspect you are), you will see a benefit to going to a modern monolith cat instead of the old restrictive pellet type.

I don't have cat in my car. In Finland, cat became mandatory as late as 1992. In older cars, you don't have to have catalytic converters. Every year emission measurements came mandatory in 1978 and that gives old car tuners some freedom to built engine. Usually all emission control components are taken away from cars before tight emission standards in 1992.


A little more efficiency can be gained by a freer flowing exhaust. If you can't do full duals, you can do a very nice two into one into duals:I have free flowing dual exhaust in my car.






Definitely do an HEI Distributor! Maybe with an adjustable vacuum advance....I think Crane makes them.I have to check condition of my stock distributor. If It is in bad shape, I will change to HEI. They have a test bench for old distributors here in local techical school, so I take my distributor to them.



There is also a transmission device called "Gear Vendors" which will give you an external over-drive on your TH400 Transmission. It will actually turn your 3 speed into a 6 speed automatic!
Does this thing really work in tranny with no lock-up torque converter?

That thing makes engine run slower->more slippage in torque converter= heat problems and not much better mileage.

Personally I think that only way to get better mileage from tranny is to change the whole thing to another. 4L60 or 4L80 would be an option if my original transmission starts to wreck in some point. The big question is: Does it make any sence to buy new tranny (3500-4000$ or even more) when I can get over 1800 liters of gas with the same money? I think yes if I had some extra money and no if I don't have. Right now I don't have that much extra money so I make that tranny change in future.

By the way, does those 4L60 and 4L80 (and 4L85) trannys chage gears as smooth as the original TH400?


Edlebrock Manifold with an Edlebrock Carb: That should increase fuel efficiency.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...erformer.shtml
Here people have pretty much those Edelbrocks in old american cars, so It should not be difficult to find one used. And of course we have Ebay:2thumbs:


#1. What is the health of your motor? It runs smoothly and emissions were good. Motor does not have any oil leaks.


#2. Does it burn oil?
Yes, about 1 liter/1000miles.


#3. Have you performed a compression test both hot and cold and have you ever had a leak-down test?No I haven't. I think I'll do those in spring when I start to drive with my caddy again.


#4. Have you ever had this motor run on an Ignition Scope which will tell you almost everything of the condition of the mechanical, fuel system, and ignition system?No I haven't. I should ask local shops if they have that kind of systems.


#5. Have you ever had the heads off to see if the valves and piston tops are loaded with thick carbon? No, but I think they are full of carbon. When I bought this car, It was not maintenanced in ages so, why would someone remove the carbons if they even haven't changed the oil?


#6. Have you ever de-carboned this motor?
Nope. In Finland, we put some water in sprayer bottle and run engines on "high" rpm (rpm is dependent to engine) and spray some water fog in carburetor. That should clean the engine from carbon. Water is sprayed in carburetor as long as carbon comes out. This thing is easy to do in winter, when there is snow on the ground. You can look at the snow and if its black, engine is still dirty, if its white, engine is clean.


I would even consider using a product to clean the oiling system up and which supposedly cleans the pistons ring packs. Does this have any risks?

I've heard that those products can block oil channels (wrong term??) when all that crap starts to move in engine. Of course in Finland, we have lots of smaller engines which have smaller oil channels. Does those products have any risk in bigger engines?


Amsoil synthetic engine oil, trans fluid, axle fluid or some other high end synthetic available in Europe but use one with high levels of ZDDP which is needed and protects older motors camshafts ect.I have used Valvoline Turbo 10W-40 oil which should have ZDDP. I think I gonna change to VR-1. Is VR-1 good stuff? It has high grades of ZDDP, It's easy to get (many stores got that stuff in shelves) but its 5W-50 racing oil.

What oil I should pour into my transmission when I change tranny oil? Dexron II or A-type or what? Some pepole say that todays Dexron II oil will slip more than before when they made this stuff from whale oil? Is this true?

carnut
12-22-12, 08:49 PM
All DEXTRON fluids are compatable. I use Synthetic blend in my 84 sedan.

drmenard
12-23-12, 12:20 AM
Hey Jay... this is a 69, they did not put on a cat until 75.. They don't make you put a cat on old cars, do they?

cadchris
12-23-12, 01:01 AM
I'm thinking the main reason to do an electrical fan would be to reduce noise. The mechanical fan on my old 91 with the 350 was LOUD!

Yeah, my 305 is loud also which is why I'm doing the Electric Fan Kit. Maybe I'll see some gain in HP/TQ/MPG's on that small motor, but it'll be quieter and better A/C performance. A few years there was a few magazine articles and they also showcased it on some of the TV Car/Truck Shows bragging about the gains. But, I just read the 472/500 pistons are the same size as an old 1qt Oil Can!

So the fan isn't going to show much of anything in with big-a ss displacement!:histeric:

cadchris
12-23-12, 04:29 AM
Well, I just spent the whole evening reading through 10 different forums and 20 threads about the 472/500 including transmission swaps and gears. For now; it's going to take some time to post this info with the links......but from what I've read, its from very genuine and authentic sources who know the 472/500..................

.......HOW DOES 22 MPG's SOUND FOR THE RECORD ON A 472 WITH A SPECIALLY DESIGNED CAMSHAFT SWAP?!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure there is more to it and you'll have to contact these manufactures and post on these different forums that I'll list.

Apparently, a lot guys are seeing 15-18 mpgs from matched gears to cams and transmission ect. Doesn't sound too expensive from what I've read. But, there is definitely a HUGE following of the 472/500 and a lot of research and design/ development in performance parts for those motors.

I'll try to post it all logically soon.


Anyway, I just wanted to comment on some of what you posted:


#1. Definitely put an HEI (High Energy Ignition) Distributor in this motor. It's solid state technology far surpasses the conventional points setup and will improve how this motor runs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor

HEI was a huge step in ignition technology from previous points design:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_energy_ignition

Although, HEI's do have some inherant problems. I've reserched this and have come up with many mods. to do on my 91 Eldo's HEI. One of the best things you can do for an "In cap Coil HEI" is to get that coil out of the cap! This reaquires a "Cap-Adapt" kit which allows you to run an external coil. The internal coil design gets really hot and is hard on the module. Also, there is a lot of EMI created by the "In-Cap" High Energy Coil which affects the module to false trigger which is why GM started to put a small metal shield over some HEI modules. Its just better to convert over to an external oil filled coil and not epoxy filled so it stays cool for stable output which is heavily debated by one expert in the industry by the name Dave Ray of Daves Small Body HEI's who also advocate the Large Cap HEI's that Ford used and improved on the GM HEI design which has wider spaces between terminal to prevent cross firing in the HEI Cap that the GM HEI's have problems with.

In addition, a module mounted under an "in cap coil", will heat up and it requires a special heat sink compound grease to transfer the heat out of the module and into the distributor body. Many use "Dielectric Grease" which is the wrong stuff and will insulate the module and not allow it to transfer the heat. The best heat sink grease to use is the same stuff used for your home computer's heatsink for the processor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_grease

I can do a whole write-up on the best greases and the right and wrong way to apply it........it should be applied in a long straight line and push the module into it and let the module spread the grease.........there are some good YOUTUBE Videos on the subject, but many say it's over-kill, but I've gone through some of the Accel junk performance modules and have learned my lesson. All internal distributor parts, including the module should be AC Delco!

Also, these HEI's require good clean power and should be wired with a quality relay and 10-8 awg wire. There is so much tech info I can post on modifying an HEI that many are not aware of.

In addition to all my research and the mods I'm going to do on my own HEI, I just found some EXCELLENT info. and one of the members is from a well known fuel injection service company, so this guy, if it's Jim Linder, definitely knows his stuff on GM HEI's, coils, and modules and this info would apply to any HEI setup.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=617596



#2. Regarding the Gear Vendors. From what I've read this evening, I was surprised it came up many times in different threads. Some say "yes", some say "no". The concensus is to go with a 700R4 but it definitely needs to be built stronger and it starts to get expensive. Other people have said to go with the 200R4. Some even say with the right cam and gears, the TH400 is still the strongest and can also get good fuel economy.......... I'll post those links for you soon.

You posted the 4L60. That is the same as the 700R4. Did you mean the 4L60E but many have also stated on those other forums to go with the 4L80E with an aftermarket transmission controller.


#3. I've read that some say Headers are a definite improvement on the 472/500's.


#4. As far as an Ignition Scope, many of the old guys were the true experts at reading the patterns. For the past 15 yrs, most factory technicians never used a scope and were not trained how to use them as they were old technology and they relied on their scan tools. In the recent years, there is been a lot of training ect. on how to use and read a scope pattern on new cars to help diagnose misfire ect. problems. Snap-On is a major manf. of scanners for newer computer controlled cars. They have integrated a scope in 2 of their newer scanners called the Modis and Versus.These handheld scopes are great for reading ignition patterns while driving just like those other scopes I listed previously. Originally, the scopes back in the 1960's 70's and 80's were made by SUN Electronics. They can be found in some old repair shops but were the most valuable diagnostic tool..here's what they look like:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-and-c2-corvettes/2184759-picked-up-a-few-sun-machines-this-weekend-pics.html


#5. Some people on those forums also spoke about the Edelbrock upgrades, but others said to go with even better set ups that you'll see in the followup posts that I'll put together.


#6. There is a lot more to Decarboning a motor other than only using water. Unless you have a "Fiber Optic Borescope" and can verify that only water works, I can tell you with great certainty, water alone does not work. I have a borescope and have verified many different products and how each works including water. The only thing you are removing is mostly "rich soot" and maybe some softer carbon by just using water alone. If you can see small chucks, then yes its working somewhat but you need a chemical to heatsoak into the hard layer of carbon to soften it before using the water. Also, its going to take a lot more water than a spray bottle. If you mist the water in, it will have already vaporized way before it even gets down the runner to the intake valve, combustion chamber and piston. Many times, I have trickled in 1-2 liters of water down a carb or throttle body on newer cars and have never hydrolocked a motor or bent a rod. It's not going to happen on that 472! You just trickle (just a little less than a steady stream) and enough to get the water to the valves and combustion chamber where it vaporizes and cracks the carbon off. This is how the old GM Caddy mechanics taught me how to do it.

Funny, I remember stories these guys told that they used to throw hand fulls of rice down the carb's of Flat Head Fords to get the carbon out! Many years ago, there was a system that used crushed Walnut Shells under forced air and vacuumed out to de-carbon motors!

Hmmm, I bet a hand full of snow could do wonders to decarbon an engine!:hmm::histeric:

You just need a chemical process to heat soak and soften the carbon, and the fuel additive with the highest PEA like Redline SI-1 to really break down the carbon.



#7. As far as cleaning the oil system; have you ever had the valve cover off or the oil pan? If the sludge is greater than 4mm or 1/8 inch. Then aggressive cleaning could clog the screen. If it is that thick, you could do a 10min flush with a kerosene type cleaner purchased at the parts store, drain the oil through a house "window screen" to see if there are any large chunks of sludge and/or cut open the oil filter. Then, pour 6-7 quarts of diesel fuel into the crank case and let it sit for 24-48 hrs. Throughout this time, shake the cars front end really hard for a few minutes by pushing against the fender in order to agitate and mix that solution in the crank case which would possibly loosen it from the pump pick up screen then drain the diesel fuel through a screen to see if you see chunks of debris, or if the diesel fuel is black and thick, or clear. Diesel fuel is high in detergents and I've even run a quart in the oil for a quick flush which is an old technique. Many also use a quart of trans fluid to do the same. You may want to see how your oil pressure is before doing this then check it after.

You'd be surprised how these old mechanics used to treat these engines back then.........even in the dealerships!:hammer:

But using a very good synthetic oil with its detergent package will slowly break down the sludge. Have you ever performed an Oil Analysis? Many diesel marine/truck repairs shops even have these oil analyses in their shop. My local Diesel/Marine/Heavy Equipment repair center only charges $15 per sample and tells a lot about what's going on in the engine and the condition of the oil life.


#8. Here's a little on what I found on Valvoline VR1 and NOT to use RACING OIL in a street car since it does not have the detergent packaged needed for a street car. When you read these forums, they often refer to conventional (non-synthetic oil) as "Dino" which means Dinosaur, which means its oil from the ground of the left over extinct Dinosaurs.....something like that!
:histeric:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1712458

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2135252&page=1

More info on Valvoline Products:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2843728&Searchpage=1&Main=188345&Words=Valvoline+vr1&Search=true#Post2843728

Race oils are for short use and drain periods.



#9. Good info here on TH400 Fluid. I'd probably use DextronIII which is good advice from one of the better known members. Some of the members on that Forum are chemists and are really knowledgeable:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2631594&page=1


I'll work on that other info regarding the fuel efficency of the 472/500, Transmissions Info, and Rear Axle Gears recommendations.

Regards,
Chris

The Ape Man
12-23-12, 11:00 AM
Oops, I read the original post a few days ago, then responded later. Somehow I was thinking of later mid 70s 472s when I posted. Yes, if the rear ratio is in the 3s, OD will help. OR, swap in one of the high gear sets from a mid 70s-81 car. Your acceleration will not be as brisk, but you will see the same effective final drive ratio as the OD swap. It will also cost less, and will swap right in with no mods to the car.

None of the rear axle stuff fits in these older cars. After '76 Cadillac became a lot more like the rest of GM.

IIRC there was also a 3:15:1 rear axle ratio for trailer towing or limo back in the day.

A 4L80e would help a lot on highway driving but so little or nothing around town. It would take a long time to pay for itself. That swap needs a computer to go along.

4L60 I can envision broken parts everywhere after a few full throttle takeoffs.

cadillac_al
12-23-12, 12:23 PM
Well, this thread has gone all over the place. Whenever I contemplate spending large amounts of money in the name of efficiency I like to figure out how long it will take for the mods to pay off. If you spend a lot of time and money you may get 18 mpg out of the car. If it gets10-12 mpg now it will still take a lot of miles before your fuel savings will pay for the mods. The gear vendors unit is a proven reliable unit but it isn't cheap either. 4L80's aren't that cheap to retrofit either. I think most people just pay the penalty at the pump and enjoy it as is. I have lived over 50 years without needing Seafoam so I don't get it's popularity. Synthetic oil will keep any engine clean by itself. I would give any old 472 an HEI with a good tune up and call it good.

3dfx
12-23-12, 12:59 PM
#8. Here's a little on what I found on Valvoline VR1 and NOT to use it in a street car since it does not have the detergent packaged needed for a street car. When you read these forums, they often refer to conventional (non-synthetic oil) as "Dino" which means Dinosaur, which means its oil from the ground of the left over extinct Dinosaurs.....something like that!

Ok.

Amsoil products are pretty difficult to get in Finland. No one drives every day with these cars nowadays and that's why we don't have very much those products.

It's difficult to find synthetic oil with high ZDDP too. I have searched some information, and Valvoline Turbo which I have used in all engines, has 1300ppm of zinc, but that oil is mineral.

I've heard Red Line uses ester technology in their oils? Does Red Line have any high ZDDP oils?

They would be synthetic and nice, especially in winter.




I'll read the rest of your message later and answer then

cadillac_al
12-23-12, 09:54 PM
There must be some kind of diesel truck oil with the extra zddp available over there that should work fine.

cadchris
12-24-12, 01:13 AM
There must be some kind of diesel truck oil with the extra zddp available over there that should work fine.

Actually, I've been doing major researching on this topic just to post for this thread, and of course, saved about 20 Links of Threads to post back here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, but its true and I really don't want to post that much stuff, but the only way to learn is read, Read, READ! And I'm still learning! :shhh:

Anyway, I came across some info from some intelligent sources regarding your thoughts exactly that others have also concluded, and the experts say, NOT to use diesel oil in a gas motor even though many diesel oils do have high ZDDP levels. Apparently, from what was said, Diesel Oils additive package needs high heat to activate the additive package, and those oils also have different additives and low Ash content ect. which will only benefit diesel motors......and a bunch of other technical reasons that I can't remember!:bonkers:
It was also said, the ZDDP acts differently in diesel oil and does not work until it is exposed to the high heat of a diesel motor.

Also, many have discussed the same Valvoline VR1 oil that "3dfx" is currently using which has been reforumulated with an addivtive package for street cars. Looks like VR1 oil is a good choice. I would maybe go synthetic and add a ZDDP additive like ZDDP Plus or even Redlines ZDDP additive to an acceptable calculated concentration whatever that may be......
http://www.zddplus.com/

ZDDP Plus Tech Paper:
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief2%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Cam%20Wear%20-%20Just%20Another%20Engine%20Oil%20Myth.pdf

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121

I'm sure there are many company's in Europe who sell a ZDDP additive also known as "Break In Additive".

Here's Mobil 1's answer on the topic:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/ZDDP_Levels_Classic_Cars.aspx


Finally, here's some excellent info on "Everything you want to know about ZDDP" from a GM Tech Bulletin with some very good conclusions that were made about the GM Tech Bulletin!
:hmm:
It was info from 2007, so I wonder if this info has changed any as oil technology has also changed over the past 5yrs. I'll ask for an update to see what they say................
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812

I still feel that this 472 and any neglected motor should have some supplemental cleaning performed. I've been reading some very good info on the KREEN Oil Flush and it looks like that's what I'm ordering soon because of its very different and unique formulation vs. Marvel Mystery Oil, Sea Foam, and Auto RX. I wish I knew about it back in the early 90's when we had some bad bulk oil from a local supplier totally gunk up my Fleet of delivery trucks and my 91 Brougham that I foolishly used that oil in a few times before find out what was happening!
:gah:


I'm going to order some KREEN and give it a try on some of my cars. I sent them an e-mail to see if it's distributed to Europe or if they know of a product over there with the exact formulation. I'll post some interesting and promising stuff I found about it. Their web-site is pretty basic for such an old product line that mainly is known in the Fire Arms and Aerospace Industry.


I'm still gathering tons of stuff to post to the thread in addition to that Camshaft upgrade for the 472 which was developed by some BIG BLOCK CADDY GURU'S and has been proven to improve economy of the 472/500 motor. Bare with me.

Regards,
Chris

deVille33
12-24-12, 10:24 AM
Problem with most of these chemical oil strippers is just that, they strip the oil of it's lubricating properties. That is why you can only run them for short periods of time. Also they help contaminates to run throught the oiling system. If you have ever torn down an engine, you should be aware of the pockets of fine metal deposits that these cleaners allow to get back into suspension and they are fine enough to pass through most pick-up screens. At this point it relies on how efficient you oil filter is. WIX makes one of the best. Some of the others will allow minute particles through them. There is no known rating of oil filters. They all allow some contaminates through, and all systems have a bypass valve that allows oil passage when trapped particles offer too much resistance.

3dfx
01-19-13, 05:45 PM
I have read about camshaft thing, and maybe in autumn I dissassemble the engine and change all bearings, pistonrings, etc. and buy a new cam. In autumn I can get my car into warm garage.

I have read about those camshafts, here is one site which provides them: http://www.500cid.com/cams.htm

They say I can get 22MPG fuel consumption, that sounds pretty amazing, huh?:suspect:

Has anyone here replaced your own cam with MTS#3 series mileage cam?

What else I must change? Do I have to change lifters, pushrods, or anything?

They say this cam works best in low-compression engines, how doest it work in my engine, which is high compression? Do I get better results than ones with low compression engine?

cadchris
01-19-13, 10:38 PM
Hi "3dfx",

Very very sorry 3dfx I didn't get back to you. Been sick for a while, but almost on a daily basis, I've compiled literally a library and database of links for you to review about the 472/500 modifications surrounding fuel economy..... About a whole winter's worth of reading!!!!!
:bonkers:

Ton's of info on the 472 and how to achieve the fuel economy gains. I'm glad you posted a message and are still interested in this subject, so my research can at least be of interest to you or others. Since you already found the MTS site, you probably have been also doing research and may have already seen the many links I've already compiled, or maybe not!
:hmm:

I've also become very interested in the 472/500 and may put one in my 91' Brougham if my little 305 TBI dies some day. I also found a guy who put one into a beautiful red concourse 1980 Fleetwood Brougham that gets 12mpg (city?/Hwy?) and does the 1/4 mile in 12.92 at 106mph and is an every day street car! This motor was built by the old famous owner of MTS "Al Betker" who built the motor to be 500 hp / 600 tq. for Matt Garrett who is a major car collector here the U.S. and has a huge website of all his cars:
http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/MAVICA.HTM

Here's his main web-page with all of his collection. His Cadillac Collection is really unbelievable:
http://www.mcsmk8.com/cadillacs/mycads.htm :yup:

I've also e-mailed Matt Garrett about his 1980 Fleetwood and how to get in touch with Al Betker. I may call him tomorrow also.

I've been thinking a lot about your engine and have been researching and talking to experts on some diagnostics and very specific and unique procedures/treatments to do on your engine to basically save its life from an unnecessary rebuild and to try and revive it so you can hopefully take this project on without a lot of expense or doing a rebuild.

I have been in contact with Marty at MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties www.500cid.com ) a few times about your 69' Deville who is now one of the new owners of the company. Today he sent me the "TOP SECRET CAM SPECS" in order to be able to start to get advice on matching axle gears, transmission, torque converter, and spark advance to get this engine to run properly on that cam or even with your stock cam. Basically, MTS only builds engines but will try and help give advice beyond engine building. Many forums have said MTS is the best and most well known company to deal with on the 425/472/500 performance parts ect.

After doing a lot of research on that cam and other economy improving tricks for the 472/500, I've been trying to get the history straight about their [U]MTS#3 "22 mpg. Economy Camshaft"
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-Valve-Train/s/17/Categories

The company "MTS" has gone through 3 owners and Marty (new owner) had said he does not have the detailed info about that famous "76' Sedan DeVille 472 that got 22 mpgs." because he said the client database and other info was all lost after a computer crash after they bought the company from Al Betker. I "THINK" that camshaft along with all the MTS cams were developed by the 2nd owner Al Betker who developed and did a lot of research and design on those cam, but sold his business (MTS) to Marty around 2007 who merged and also bought out Torque Inc. another Cadillac Perf. company along with Bull Dog Cadillac Performance Heads.

I'm presently trying to track down "Al Betker" through some of my auto industry contacts and will let you know if I can find him and get him to join in here to discuss his expertise on these motors........

As far as the info I've compiled, ITS HUGE! I've tried my best to organized it with a description of each link. I think I may do a write-up about what I believe you should try to do with the motor first in diagnostics and some procedures, then post all of those links to better understand my rational of how I would proceed with your car if it were mine.

Not real sure how I'm going to do this.......I have to think a little more but since no one else has posted any ideas in a few weeks, I guess the next few HUGE posts won't bury anyone's posts on the subject.

Regards,
Chris

deVille33
01-20-13, 10:14 AM
Has anyone here replaced your own cam with MTS#3 series mileage cam?

What else I must change? Do I have to change lifters, pushrods, or anything?

They say this cam works best in low-compression engines, how doest it work in my engine, which is high compression? Do I get better results than ones with low compression engine?[/QUOTE]

Any time you install a new cam it is best to install new lifters. The lifter faces and the cam lobes have to "wear-in". Cam manufactures generally sell these in kits with some moly-disulfide and oil additive, to aid with the break-in. If you plan to use a previously used cam, it is advisable to install lifters in the same location in relation to the lobe due to the resulting matched surfaces.
Push rods, rockers, rocker shafts, valve stem tips, locks, and spring retainers, should all be examined with scrutiny. My rule, New cam = new valve springs, or at least check the static spring pressure and replace as needed. Sometimes you can get away with replacing just the exhaust valve springs, as they are exposed to more heat than the intakes.
Cams designed as "mileage" cams are basically low lift/short duration cams which do not promote proper dynamics for most high compressioned engines. The stock cam for a 472 is already of this design. Compression in these engines is the result of the large diameter/stroke of the pistons, similar in design as a lot of diesel engines. These engines reach peak efficiency around 2000 rpm. Use of one of these cams, may neccessitate rejetting your carb to improve off idle performance.

Submariner409
01-20-13, 10:49 AM
It's always fun to get into an engine and work toward better economy/more power.

But, keep careful accounts of money and time spent, bounce that against any claimed gas mileage increase and your present mileage; then figure how many gallons of gas you need to burn to begin to break even.

I build a LOT of Olds 455 and GM 454 engines for marine use. Different cams, rocker arms, timing - all have very little effect (in the order of things) on fuel consumption. Advancing a cam 4 degrees brings the power curve down a bit in the rpm range and MIGHT net you a small fuel economy gain at cruise, but that's doubtful.

Perhaps a good Quadrajet overhaul and some careful primary jet work would be the way to go. Find Doug Roe's HP Books 8 X 11 paperback on how to repair and tune Quadrajets. Google.

3dfx
01-20-13, 03:11 PM
But, keep careful accounts of money and time spent, bounce that against any claimed gas mileage increase and your present mileage; then figure how many gallons of gas you need to burn to begin to break even.


Yeah, I really have to keep this in mind. Thats why I have to find out does someone REALLY got mileages as low as 22MPG. We in Finland have lots of 80's and 90's Turbo Volvos and Saab 900 Turbos and they get mileages like that. Saab 900, and Volvos are smaller cars with smaller, 2 liter engines. It sound very unbelieveable that bigger car with 60's huge carburator engine could do the same mileages than those Saabs and Volvos with fuel injection (crappy bosch K-jettronic...I don't know is it much better than carburator...) and turbos.

I'm only changing the cam if I decide to do some serious engine repairs and replace all piston rings, bearings and all worn parts with new ones, hone cylinders, "hone" (I don't know is this the right word?) valves, machine my cylinder head with MIRA.

I have to do this decision about engine repairs after I have done pass-leak test and pressure test to my engine. I'll do them as soon as I can. Maybe in spring when weather warms up.


I have been in contact with Marty at MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties www.500cid.com ) a few times about your 69' Deville who is now one of the new owners of the company.I sent E-mail to them yesterday and asked about prices, cam options, and can they ship their products to Finland.

cadchris
01-20-13, 06:10 PM
From all the links I saved on the 472/500's: the factory cam had a very bizarre and strange profile since it was the beginning of emissions control in the U.S. The peak intake lift was said to be 17 degrees After Top Dead Center!!!!!! Very bad for power or efficiency of combustion and I can't imagine how it gave lower emissions. There was so many other strange issues with those factory cams on slow ramp speed ect. ect. and have been said to be very bad cam designs from the factory, and ANY performance cam will really bring that engine alive from what others have experienced and studying the factory cam profile. They also have said these cams and even aftermarket regrinds need to be degreed in because most of them are off by 4 degrees +++.

"This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?"
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php?topic=5836.25;wap2

Full Forum: "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?"
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php?topic=5836.0


From what I've read a few times now, the 425/472/500 engine blocks were casted with high nickle alloy content which made them very hard and durable and was great protection from cylinder wall wear. So that's in your favor if the engine was not well maintained. I've read that many people were surprised to see the original cross hatch still on the cylinder walls after 200,000 miles and didnt' need to touch the cylinder walls.


The original springs were not made well from Cadillac, and it has been said, you can actually compress the springs by hand because they were so weak!

Also, you definitely want to purchase the MTS#3 or #5 Kit with the lifters along with the valve spring kit:
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-330/Complete-MTS-Valve-Spring/Detail

MTS#3 Cam Kit: http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-237/MTS-%233--dsh--472-fdsh-500/Detail

MTS#5 Cam Kit: http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-236/MTS-%235--dsh--472-fdsh-500/Detail


I may as well let you in on a major flaw of this motor right now, that I discovered.

First, the valve spring seals/retainers on the 425/472/500 motors were made of Nylon (plastic), as were the teeth on the timing gears had Nylon! The Nylon gets very brittle and breaks off from both area's and ends up on the oil pump pickup screen! When the Nylon coating breaks off the timing gears, it accelerates the timing chain wear and totally screws up valve timing along with ignition timing which will make matters worse for efficiency of the combustion event! If it gets bad enough, the chain jumps a tooth +, you will have valve piston contact! That's what I was told and couldn't believe it........

I believe that is why you are having a MAJOR oil problem as I have confirmed that 1 liter/600km is far too much oil being burned for that motor and any of these Big Cadillac Motors using more than 1qt/3000 has these problems which need to be explored and ruled out.

In addition, you will need to buy a new Timing Set by Cloyes:
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-92/Cloyes-Street-full-roller/Detail Street Set

http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-93/Cloyes-Super-HP-timing/Detail HP Full Roller Set

I know one of technical guys at Cloyes I can talk to about this in the next few days and which "Timing Set" to go with. He coincidentally sent me an e-mail the other day about something else so I'll be sure to ask him what he knows about the 472/500 because he is an absolute authority on GM.


The 2nd reason that I've been doing a lot of research about your oil consumption problem, is that I firmly believe all that oil in the combustion chambers has most certainly carboned up ring-packs/ ring-lands and are not allowing the rings to move freely and seal, along with bad maintenance of previous owners and long oil change intervals with cheep oil over the years......so your oil consumption problem over the years may have caused the rings to seize up fromoil entering from the top through the valve seals, and from the bottom through a stuck oil ring..........more on how to resolve that later by a hot chemical soak and pressurizing the cylinder to dissolve the carbon with out taking the motor apart!

One of the first things to do after a chemical soak, is to take that oil pan off and inspect/clean it out from all the Nylon material!

SEE POST #4 and enlarge the photo of all the Nylon timing gears and valve springs seals!:shocked2:
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/425-ci-cadillac-198642.html

After I post up all my research along with any other advice from other members here, you are going to want to join the Forums that specialize in the 472/500 motors like the 500CID Forum and there are a few others. Just post the links on this thread so others can get linked to those other forums threads on building an efficient 472/500 because I'm sure some very good advice will be given!
:2thumbs:


Essentially, from the info I will post, in order to get the best fuel economy from that MTS#3, it will need to be carefully matched to the proper gears, trans, torque converter, and spark curve of a new HEI and you may as well go with a MSD/Crane/Mallory CID spark box which will give you multiple sparks to improve the combustion efficiency of those HUGE combustion chambers!

There is another spark box technology that is mostly unknown, but was developed by a very well known German Electronics Engineer by the name of Ulf Arens and some in the OEM/Aftermarket Spark Box Industry consult with him for product development while other shun his expertise and knowledge. Here's his technology he licensed to this company which is big with the Asian Tuners: http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm

This system was also tested by David Vizard who is the famous automotive technical journalist who writes all the "GOOD" articles for the car magazines like Hot Rod ect...and has written a few performance books. He did a write up on a very good race industry forum that no longer exists but here is the old archived website. Unfortunately, the photos of the Ignition Scope Pattern are not shown on this site which was proof of how it worked:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080413094458/http://www.gofastnews.com/board/technical-articles/689-plasma-ignition-promo-parley-pratical-power.html

Here is an excerpt on the same article about the Plasma Booster from David Vizards book: "HOW TO BUILD HORSEPOWER". Pg. 90 is not shown but here is pg. 91:
http://books.google.com/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=DAVID+VIZARD+PLASMA&source=bl&ots=CZgs5T0vRU&sig=YIxtmvr3CmVvhH2Lkj9GEUJ-YCU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Aqr8ULjhKYL48wTPhYCACQ&sqi=2&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=DAVID%20VIZARD%20PLASMA&f=false


Industry News on Ulf Arens's invention:
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/spark-of-anger

But David Vizard is now testing the Blue Phoenix Plasma Ignition so I'll have to read about it more but these guys are discussing it:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28187&start=45


This is why you need at least an HEI Distributor/Ignition to light off that high compression and huge cylinders which are as big as an old oil can! Like this one: http://www.retroplanet.com/PROD/13370
Even David Vizard states the same on large big block cylinder capacities in that book.
:burn:


If you think this post was long..............the info I will post is about 10 of these pages!!!!!! :wisdom: But I believe is well worth the read.

More to come soon!

Regards,
Chris

3dfx
01-21-13, 10:05 AM
I've read that many people were surprised to see the original cross hatch still on the cylinder walls after 200,000 miles and didnt' need to touch the cylinder walls.One Cadillac mechanic here said this same thing when I started to talk about honing the cylinder walls. Well, that's good for me.


First, the valve spring seals/retainers on the 425/472/500 motors were made of Nylon (plastic), as were the teeth on the timing gears had Nylon! I'm familiar with this problem, my Saab 96 (with 1,5 liter Ford V4) has nylon timing gears and valve spring seals. I haven't got any problems with that yet but my friend has lots of problems with them and he replaced the original nylon gears with ones made from steel. Luckily, bad timing doesn't to any heavy damage in Ford V4.

Well, replacing the nylon gears is the first thing I'll have to do when I dismantle my engine. Those nylon things just suck and can cause lots of problems.


There is another spark box technology that is mostly unknown, but was developed by a very well known German Electronics Engineer by the name of Ulf Arens and some in the OEM/Aftermarket Spark Box Industry consult with him for product development while other shun his expertise and knowledge. Here's his technology he licensed to this company which is big with the Asian Tuners: http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm One Finnish car magazine had article about that plasma ignition. There were pictures about it and spark seemed lot brighter than test cars original spark. Test car was pretty new VAG group car, Audi perhaps. The difference between those two sparks was huge, I can't imagine how huge the difference will be between break-point ignition and plasma ignition.

The only question is, how reliable this plasma ignition system is. It's mainly used in high-end racing cars for a short perioids of time and there isn't very much street experience about it. How does the system work after 100 000km or 200 000km of street driving? Or how this plasma ignition device work in -20 degrees celsius?


Essentially, from the info I will post, in order to get the best fuel economy from that MTS#3, it will need to be carefully matched to the proper gears, trans, torque converter, and spark curve of a new HEI and you may as well go with a MSD/Crane/Mallory CID spark box which will give you multiple sparks to improve the combustion efficiency of those HUGE combustion chambers!

This could be pretty expensive if I have to take my car to some gearbox workshop for adjustment and go to some other workshop to adjust my ignition or sparkbox.

The MTS#5 cam is more like the stock cam but how much it will affect to fuel economy? Is it possible to get anything like 18-20 MPG with this cam?


This is why you need at least an HEI Distributor/Ignition to light off that high compression and huge cylinders which are as big as an old oil can!HEI distributor could be good. Is it any difference if I buy used old Delco-Remy distributor from some old 70's 472 based Cadillac or new high quality distributor? Of course, if I buy old distributor, I will overhaul it.


If you think this post was long..............the info I will post is about 10 of these pages!!!!!! But I believe is well worth the read.
I'll read it, this is very interesting topic. I'ts good to study these engines and make them more affordable to drive with todays gas prices.

cadchris
01-25-13, 03:00 AM
Hi 3DFX,

What Plasma system did they review in that magazine article?

Over the past few years, there have been quite a few ignitions that have developed a "Plasma" type ignition, but only a few few who truly developed the better technology. The system built by Ulf Arens and now sold through Okada Projects, or maybe by his old company in Europe, are for street cars and built to last for every day use. I've read that they are a simple 2 or 3 wire connection to the distributor/coil and if the box should fail, it resorts back to the OEM ignition where the MSD/Crane CDI box's will totally shut down the igntion if it should fail. I believe its because those system replace the distributor module where this Plasma box by OKADA does not.

I've been reading a lot about that other system called Blue Phoenix Plasma Ignition and that system needs to be used with non-resistor plug which will interfere with modern day electronics or radios from a lot of EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference) that is generated with a non-resistor plug and amplified by this spark box, but some users have talked about installing shielding devices like the old style metal end capped euro spark plug boots that are then run to a ground wire. They've also said plugs don't last long on that system due to erosion of the plug tips because the system is so powerful. Although, Non-resistor plugs on a MSD Box or other boxes will also show a huge spark discharge but then again, that is at normal atmosperic pressure and not under vacuum or within a combustion chamber under extreme pressures. But makes a good marketing show!

They were also talking about custom made "Duel Tungsten" plugs which are hand made to run on this system.......very interesting.:hmm:

The Plasma technology is very real and one system I read about was developed by reserchers at M.I.T. (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) around 1999 and they formed a private company called SmartFire Plasma Ignition. The company has since been bought and sold by some industry giants like Motorola and Woodwards. It was developed for F1 Race engines and it used the spark plug also as a harmonic device listening for pre-igntion/detonation/misfires and would adjust the spark event accordingly!

This system was about $22,000 U.S.!!!!!!!!!! :shocked::shocked2:

But I think the BIG OIL COMPANY's suppressed the technology through influence of Motorola and Woodwards who now own the SmartFire System!
:bricks:

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/oct06/burckmyer.html

http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analysis/sparking-interest

There was even a brief merger of the company that makes my injector carbon cleaning machine "TerraClean" before they were sold off::hmm::hmm::hmm:
http://guideauto.com/terralogix-and-adrenaline-form-alliance-to-commercialize-their-complementary-low-emission-technolo/actualite

Here's the latest on Plasma Ignition Technology from Federal-Mogul:
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1066976_michigan-company-develops-fuel-saving-corona-ignition-system

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/breakthrough-federal-mogul-advanced-corona-ignition-system-acis-technology-enables-significantly-improved-fuel-economy-reduced-emissions-extended-service-life-129714558.html

I BET THESE IGNITION TECHNOLOGIES WOULD GET THE OLD CADDY UP TO 50 MPG'S!!!!!!:dance:

But, I think this technology has ALSO been somewhat exploited by the lower end devices that are available bragging about "Plasma". The only 2 devices I'd trust is the ones tested by David Vizard. I'm sure there maybe other company's too and some in Europe, but I'll have to talk with Ulf Arens someday soon to and ask him about these technologies or any others in Europe that are reputable..............maybe he was the first to duplicate the plasma technology or they stole it from him!


Anyway, here's a little bit more info on the cam that I wanted to pass along to you and the e-mail from Marty at MTS and who was nice enough to actually give me the secret cam specs. Not sure if he also sent you this info too. But here it is for everyone to read..... In addition, here is some old info from the old MTS owners website further below:


E-mail from MTS on exact cam specs:

"#3 cam specs using stock rockers
-This is a single pattern cam so both intake and exhaust lobes are the same
Valve lift .472"
-Advertised duration at .006" lift is 267*
-duration at .050" lift is 210*
-LSA is 112* and the cam is ground straight up. With early higher compression engines this is the way we recommend it be installed so the engine doesn't want to ping as easily.

With the later low compression engines the cam can be advanced 4*

-#5 cam specs with stock rockers
-Valve lift .486"
-Advertised duration at .006" lift is 279*
-duration at .050" is 214*
-LSA is 112 + 4"


WEB ARCHIVED PAGES FROM OLD MTS WEBSITE: I'll post the websites in that HUGE research I've been doing to post here maybe this weekend.

#3 Series Grind
RPM Range: Idle - 4200
This Cam is all Bottom end and Toque. Its excellent for heavy tow use. It will get a very heavy package moving from dead stop easily. It makes a great replacement for the stock cams in stock Fleetwood and Eldorados. This cam provides a stock idle with good vacuum. Its perfect for use with 2 to low 3 series rear gears. it works with stock valve springs and provides good fuel economy.

#5 Series Grind
RPM Range: 1000 - 4600
Use of this Cam Requires a performance vale spring kit. This cam moves the power band up a notch. Still a good M.P.G. economy with a stock type idle. For use with 2 to 3 series rear gearing. Excellent towing power. This cam will move the Cadillac power curve to match your vehicles low to 3 series rear end gearing. A good choice for your daily driven street car or street rod. Excellent M.P.G. that improves with edelbrock intake and headers. Perfect choice for low compression 427 or 500 cads.

I'm also in contact with a well known custom torque converter company called YANK converters. They are a company who highly engineers torque converters beyond the other well known companies. There are only a few of these custom converter company's that seem to share the same engineering technologies, but they are not cheep due to how well they built. I'll ask this guy what he recommends to see if they have a history on what works for custom converters for the Cadillac's for fuel efficiency to be matched to the MTS#3 Cam Profile and other recommendations of gearing/trans.

More to come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
Chris

cadchris
01-25-13, 04:17 AM
Hi again 3Dfx,

Did you read this link to the forum "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?" that I posted previously?

It talks about the 472/500 & 429/360 and detail info on the factory cam specs..... That forum has 4 pgs and easy to miss the pg. display on the upper left/lower left side of the pg. See the 8th post on that page below by "John Baker" who gives the OEM cam specs and from what they discuss, the OEM cams were 17 deg. retarded on intake opening!
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,5836.15.html

The MTS#5 Cam is definitely not like the factory OEM cam from what they've discussed there.....

Getting the correct axle gear set, trans., torque converter, and bringing in all the timing advance of 30-36 degrees at 2000 rpm is what MTS said. Not a big deal, but just picking the best rear gears to match that cam is important to get your fuel economy...

Good info in that 4pg thread......

You can do a rebuilt Delco. I'll post some stuff on that tomorrow......:yawn:

Regards,
Chris

jayoldschool
01-25-13, 12:00 PM
Has anyone noted that the 429 is a completely different engine than the 500/472/425/368 family?

Bro-Ham
01-25-13, 12:50 PM
My 425 is still smooth as silk at 124k miles, it does, however, use about a quart of oil each thousand miles. Since I intend to keep the car, I have kept in the back of my mind a rebuild of the engine, carb and transmission too, and the MTS #3 mileage cam will go in so I can maybe go 3 days between fill ups instead of 2.

cadchris
01-26-13, 02:37 AM
Since were talking about cams, here's some basic info about cam specs:

Popular HotRodding Article:http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0606em_camshaft_specs/viewall.html

Monte Carlo Forum on LSA ect:
http://www.firstgenmc.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=62451

LS1 Forum on Cam Advancing Specs:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/894483-cam-lsa-explanation.html


The specs that MTS e-mailed me are still only basic specs and not the complete cam profile. Probably so people can't duplicate the cam by another mfg. without having the profile measured on a "Cam Doctor" machine.
http://powermechanics.com/camdoctor.html

A little on Camshaft integrity here by NC Cams, when measuring on a "cam doctor machine" that a camshaft supplier uses...funny thread but informative on measuring cam defects also!
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/home-made-cam-doctor-149679.html

When you get a new cam, it must be degreed just in case the keyway is off and it needs to be corrected by drilling the cam sprocket alignment hole and installing a offset shim or an adjustable cam sprocket!:thumbsup: .

Anyway, I went looking on YOUTUBE for their old "Cam Degreeing" video, which I have in their old kit they sold in the early 90's with a classroom tutorial and teacher using a classroom chalkboard. I asked Comp Cams to upload it but here is their newer less informative video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNoVRLb73c

Here's the kit they sell through Summit Racing:
http://www.powerhouseproducts.com/ph/valve-train-tools/camshaft-tools.html

A few years ago, a company called CamLogic developed a digital cam degreeing kit and it was bought out by Comp Cams-Powerhouse Tools, and may not be available any longer:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1626/camlogic_digital_degree_system_revolutionizes_cams haft_degreeing.aspx

http://powermechanics.com/camdoctor.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bWoULkiRDU


Here's a good 5 part video on Camshaft Design:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnfdYc2GAz0


From what I read on the old archived MTS site that I will post along with many other links: "MT Series Cams are custom ground for MTS by Comp Cams" and the "VT Series are custom ground for MTS by Erson Cams"

The new owners of MTS could have their cams ground by other grinders in the industry.

Hopefully, Comp Cams will upload their original cam degreeing video.

3dfx
01-26-13, 09:19 AM
Did you read this link to the forum "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?" that I posted previously? Yeah, I have read John Baker's post about horrible cam design.


What Plasma system did they review in that magazine article? I'm not sure but I think it was the Okada project ignition system.

I have to look for that magazine, maybe I can find one from library. I think they store some old magazines in there.


Not sure if he also sent you this info too.I haven't got an answer from there yet, I'll have to send a new message to them, maybe my message went to their spam folder.


Not a big deal, but just picking the best rear gears to match that cam is important to get your fuel economy... I'm not sure did I ask this before but If im lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torqueconverter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems.

cadchris
01-26-13, 01:53 PM
Arron9000 in post #18 said most likely you have 2.94:1 gears. Since you were not the original owner, have you ever verified what gears you have?

Here's one way to check...see post#9:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11303

I'll get you a definite answer from that tech at the company who builds custom converters.

Just found another site for the 1969 Cadillac Specs:
http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/prod1969cadi.html

By the way, in Finland, you are paying $8.60 U.S. for a gallon of gas!!!!!!!!!!!:mob:

Basically, 1.6 Euros per liter. That's $2.15 US per liter or a quart! There are about 4 liters or quarts to a gallon.
http://www.mytravelcost.com/Finland/gas-prices/


So what's the more severe punishment, stealing petrol or stealing a draft horse to tow your Caddy around?!:shifty

I think you may want to consider the "Electric Car Conversion Forum"! I don't know how you guys can afford to drive those cars over-there........................

3dfx
01-26-13, 05:58 PM
Arron9000 in post #18 said most likely you have 2.94:1 gears. Since you were not the original owner, have you ever verified what gears you have?No I haven't. I think I have original gears because this car is pretty much in original condition. I'll check them tomorrow if the weather is good and reply about my gears.


By the way, in Finland, you are paying $8.60 U.S. for a gallon of gas!!!!!!!!!!!

Basically, 1.6 Euros per liter. That's $2.15 US per liter or a quart! There are about 4 liters or quarts to a gallon.
http://www.mytravelcost.com/Finland/gas-prices/Gas has been always expensive in Finland. Gas is taxed much and the government will tax it more and more...:arghh: Currently there is The Green party (some kind of environmental extremist..) sitting in government among other parties and those Greens would like to stop private cars (heavily taxed new cars (nowadays if I buy a car worth 50 000Euros, taxes are something like 15000 to 25000 Euros so the final price is like 70 000 euros...) and heavily taxed gas..) from Finland and indirectly force everyone to use public conveyance...That's good in cities but in countryside it's bad...Luckily those Greens aren't very strong party..

Now the gas prices have come down a little. In spring gas prices were something like 1.7 and 1.8 Euros per liter..Now prices are something like 1.55 and 1.6 Euros per liter.



I think you may want to consider the "Electric Car Conversion Forum"!Electric cars are bad because they don't work in low temperatures. I would need to steal that that draft horse anyway:D

Well, maybe pressurized natural gas conversion is an option in future. The conversion itself isn't very expensive but the availability of natural gas is bad. Hope there will be more gas stations in future. Of course problems with natural gas prices begin when there is more natural-gas powered cars in the streets and when the government starts to tax heavily natural gas...:annoyed:


I don't know how you guys can afford to drive those cars over-there........................ That's why I'm here to talk about getting more economical cadillac:2thumbs:


I think there was more politics than Cadillacs in this message:D

cadchris
01-26-13, 11:56 PM
There are also LPG (Liquid Propane Gas) conversions that many fleet trucks convert to which is cheaper than gasoline here and burns cleaner. There are inexpensive kits available also for personal cars/trucks...infact, many internet forums devoted to it. I've been reading about an additive for LPG that increases BTU's of the combustion.Not sure if Finland has LPG filling stations.

You need to get the "h-ll" out of Finland with your Caddy and not look back! We are all very lucky to be able to buy gas at what seems to be much more reasonable prices here in the U.S. versus other countries.

Here's something that should make all of us pretty mad...........CITCO in Venezuela is around .18 cents a gallon U.S!

Here are the 10 Ten Cheapest gas prices in the world.....you'll need to move there or drive there to fill up the Deville!!!!!!!!!!!!:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2012/0229/World-s-cheapest-gas-Top-10-countries/Venezuela-0.18-per-gallon-0.05-per-liter

Last time the U.S. saw .18 cents per gallon was 1931-1941:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2005/fcvt_fotw364.html

Of course, there is always the alternative type of gas to run the Caddy on: :farting: Lets see our governments tax that!

jayoldschool
01-27-13, 12:01 AM
Can we try to get the discussion back to RWD Cadillacs, please?

talismandave
01-27-13, 12:03 AM
After reading the choices on the list.....I would move to Finland and pay the price first!

3dfx
01-27-13, 11:44 AM
.Not sure if Finland has LPG filling stations.We don't have those for, but I think LPG is pretty easy to get and store in some big gas tank. Of course, there can be some law which denies that or something...


You need to get the "h-ll" out of Finland with your Caddy and not look back! We are all very lucky to be able to buy gas at what seems to be much more reasonable prices here in the U.S. versus other countries.
Well, this country has some flaws (maybe biggest flaw is traffic, the condition of roads and all those EU things which are ruining everything...) but there are pretty much things which are perfect in this country.:thumbsup:



And back to Cadillacs, I checked my back gears and they were a bit under 3. When I rotated my wheel two times round, the driveshaft rotated a bit less than 3 times. So, I think I have those 2.94:1 gears. The mark in driveshaft started to "retard" when I rotated my wheel 4 or 6 times.

Could it be possible that my stock torque converter could work with longer back gears?


Few days ago, I heard one rumour from american car mechanic. If I mix classic Dexron II atf and some wet brake oil 50%/50%, I could get an oil mix which doesn't slit as much as todays Dexron II. Has anyone else heard this kind of information?

cajutila
01-31-13, 11:41 PM
Tervetuloa

3dfx
02-14-13, 08:28 AM
Kiitos




Cadchris, have you asked about torque converters from YANK yet?

I have 2.94 gears now.

cadchris
02-14-13, 01:15 PM
Sorry I didn't get back to you 3dfx, I've been working on a "huge deal" to purchase prototype performance parts that were developed for the early Cadillac Motorsports Program for the 4.5/4.9 Cadillac's 88-96. I made the deal to save these parts and race motors from being throw out and made into scrap metal !
:dance:

I've been wanting to send a different e-mail for another opinion on this converter; just get second opinion. I just sent the e-mail and hopefully will hear back today or tomorrow. I was hoping that others would post, but I'll get that huge researched posted up I did way back on this topic and have even more to add.......

Stay tuned!
:burn:

Regards,
Chris

cadchris
02-16-13, 02:44 AM
O.K. I'm going to try the best I can writing this one up as I'm no expert on Transmissions or Torque Converters! But I can give you my best feeling and educated guess on what to do based on my conversations with some of the experts of "High End" built converters unlike the regular known "Performance Brands" like TCI, B&M ect. ect........

The converters I'm going to talk about are really high end quality, all new billet designs, with a little secretiveness between each company's technology!

I spoke to both Terry Hedrick at Precision Industries Converters http://www.converter.com/ who built my converter based on my intensive research a few years ago for my 700R4 but haven't had my trans rebuilt yet. I also spoke to Mike Senia at YANK Converters http://www.converter.cc/ who gave me more favorable info on how he would build a Non-Lockup Converter for the TH400.

There are only a few company's out there who build high end converters and the average price is around $900. Many forums I've researched all say not to buy a cheep so called "Performance Converter" because you really get what you pay for and is a necessity for both efficient function and performance of the transmission.:yup:

These are full billet designs that are precision balanced, furnace brazed double-backed fin to avoid "fold over" from high engine torque, and the welds don't have globs of brass solder on the vanes which interrupts fluid dynamics and flow like seen on Precision page that all 3 companies do:
http://converter.com/why.htm

Just a few of these well known "Billet Converter Companies" are Precision "Vigilante", YANK, and Art Carr.

Here's some background on both Precision and YANK:

Terry Hedrick of Precision worked for Art Carr many years ago from what I read on other forums, and started his own company building high performance converters with improved designs from Art Carr and he is well respected in the industry. I've also heard, his company is small, but does build proprietary private label parts for other converter companies with his trusted technology and he is mostly known to build special converters for Diesel Trucks and is known to have proprietary clutch frictions .

YANK converters was started by Mike Senia and I know for a fact that Mike has close ties with GM Engineering and GM even turns to his company and him for consulting work on converters. Mike and his father have had a long history with GM as they were involved in factory custom coach building with GM back in the 60's thru 80's and being sponsored by GM's Motorsport race program for NHRA. Mike has factory GM transmission/converter testing dyno's along with a lot unlimited access to GM's Engineers ect. which I suppose helped him develop his technology in high performance converter designs. Mike is also head of product development/consultant for Cloyes Timing Chains/Gears! Mike also said to go with the Cloyes Race Billet Kit which will give you the ability to advance the MTS#3 cam 2 degrees on the crank sprocket which is better for low end torque. I say to also always degree the cam in with a degree wheel kit so you know exactly how the cam is installed.

Although Marty at MTS said the cam should be installed at 0 degrees (straight up) on the early high compression motors to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, it really got me thinking about other technology I've hear about in coolant and that cam timing can actually be advanced by using a special coolant called Evans Coolant which is a Non-Aqueous Proplyene Glycol NPG+ and cools cylinder temperature so well to avoid detonation. Their technology states more horsepower, better fuel efficiency and less wear on components since you can run a low pressure radiator cap or zero pressure radiator cap all when using this special highly efficient coolant!

I have a very good article about using this "not well known coolant" which allows an engine to run very high ignition advance and it cools the cylinders so well it avoids detonation! A turbo pickup truck was able to gain 75 hp with this coolant and advanced timing! So this might be something you want to consider in controlling cylinder temps when running advanced timing and running lean carburation for better fuel efficiency without detonation.
:2thumbs:
I'll have to figure out how to attach this article, but here's the website:
http://www.evanscooling.com/

Basically, for better fuel efficiency and power, you want to advance timing, and valve timing to move the torque curve low in the RPM range, lean out the carb. and the Evans Coolant will allow you to do it without detonation. All racers and turbo guys use this stuff to avoid detonation. Hopefully I can get in touch with Al Betker as he's the authority to know what to do with the Big Block Cadillac Motors.


I don't know much about Art Carr Converters and Transmissions, http://www.cpttransmission.com/index.htm but the name is very well known in the early years of performance converter manufacturing and is also mentioned in the racing scene and forums along with Precision and YANK Converters being the better technology and design.

I asked a series of questions to Terry and told him I was going to post his answers on the forum. He gives some straight forward advice and opinions, but I was hoping for something more but he did try to answer each question, but did not give a price quote when I asked him in question #1.

************************************************** ********************************
Here's my questions/answers to Terry Hedrick at Precision Converters after giving him the MTS#3 Cam Specs, Trans, Gear ratio, car info ect. :

#1. Can you build a custom converter for this car and send it to Finland Europe ....any est. on price for domestic sales also?...................HE DID NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

This "Forum Member" is located in Finland and there is a huge vintage Cadillac ownership there in Europe paying $9 a gallon to drive these cars so any converter improvement in fuel efficiency through a converter design will hopefully help.

From what I've been researching on many other forums, many people have said to stay with the TH400, but he wants fuel economy and its been debated if a 200R4 will hold, even if its built up. The 4L80 is probably the way to go for the high hp/tq of the 472 and fuel efficiency, but is an expensive conversion. Many have said not to use the 700R4 even if its built-up which apparently costs a lot to beef it up.

He wants the best fuel economy as possible and does not know what the best gears would be to match up to the cam, tq. conv., and trans. for best fuel economy. He currently has 2.94 rear gears.

#2. What is your advice for his set up?
To get the best fuel economy I would suggest using a transmission with a lock up torque converter and overdrive such as a 2004R.

I've read that there "IS and IS NOT" a lockup converter for the TH400 and I think I read that YANK did make a lock-up in the past along with some other mfgs.

#3. Does the trans need heavily modded for a lockup conversion?
We used to make a lock up 400 transmission kit and converter but do not any more because no one would spend the money.

I've read about the "Switch Pitch" TH400 also but don't really understand how it works and how to operate it. The transmission has the capability to alter the blade angle of the stator allowing for more or less torque multiplication.

Here is one of the concerns posted from that Cadillac Forum Member in Finland :

"If I'm lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torque converter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, will I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems?"

#4. Can you answer this question for him?
The lower gears will cause more slippage on take-off but slippage will be the same as before at road speed.


#5. Can there be a similar problem if he went with a Gear Vendors on the TH400 and non-lockup?
The slip on take-off will be less.

BEST TO ALWAYS USE A TRANS. COOLER.


#6. Do you know how to get in touch with Al Betker who was the old owner of MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties) who developed that camshaft line years ago?
No

I did find a home phone number to Al Betker the old owner of MTS Maximum Torque Inc and his advice should be the best on everything to get that 22 MPG's from the cam he developed! I'll try calling him tomorrow....


#7. What benefits can your custom billet Converter do for this or any Big Block Caddy economy application? Without lockup capability there are not any.


Also, I see so much positive talk on the "Guys Who Know What Their Talking About Race Forums on Converters" and the only ones they mention without debate are your converters and Yanks, Art Carr.....no others!

#8. Do you guys do anything different in your custom billet converters vs. Yanks or are you guys basically using the same build/technology?
All different converter builders have their own theories of how converters work.
************************************************** *********************************

Maybe I should've just spoke to Terry off the record for better info... I think he may have some limitations in his converter technology.

Here's what Mike from YANK said:

He can also have a custom billet NON- LOCKUP Converter built specifically for your 69' Deville's weight, MTS#3 Cam Specs, 2:94 gears which was the same info I gave Terry at Precision. Mike said this would be a custom designed 258 mm billet converter with higher Torque Multiplication. A 2.73 STR (Stall Torque Ratio which equals less throttle to get the car moving and will have a better efficiency in design. It will have totally different internals for quick coupling at low RPM with 97% efficiency vs. the factory design of 83% efficiency which will result in 8-12% + performance increase and 7% gain in fuel millage. $895+$115 Shipping.

He said as an example, if your car currently gets 10 mpgs. It will now gain 11 mpgs. Or if you currently get 15 mpgs from optimizing your ignition, carburation, cam ect. you will then get 17mpgs. The highly efficient converter is a way to optimize the transmission and is an area that can be greatly improved over the factory design and other performance converters.

He said they did make a Lockup Converter for the TH400 but you would need a whole custom trans. at $4000 + $2000 for the special converter and would only gain 3-4% fuel millage. They made this lock-up conversion many years ago, because there was no high horsepower lock-up transmission available until performance parts were eventually developed for building up 200r4's and 700r4's including the development of the 4L80 which all made the specially designed lock-up 400 obsolete. It was an ingenious but expensive design that was not very popular due to the expense :yup:

Then there is the rare GM designed "Switch Pitch TH400 Transmission" which was a incredible design in converter/transmission technology.
http://www.google.com/search?q=switch+pitch+transmission&rlz=1C1LAVF_enUS383US415&aq=1&oq=switch+pitch+&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Mike also said he has a few pumps, turbine heads, input shafts for the "Switch Pitch TH400" which worked by being able to adjust the pitch of the stator vanes inside the converter and decreased torque multiplication when coming to a stop and was hooked up to either a manual switch or the brake pedal switch and had a high stall at 1900-2200. This was a very unique and limited transmission and still advanced technolgy to todays standards, but is also antiquated and very expensive when a 200R4 can be built-up cheaper according to these Art Carr Article's which I believe you should really now consider doing a built up performance 200R4 and using a YANK lockup converter:
:2thumbs:

SEE 3 MAGAZINE ARTICLES HERE ON BUILDING UP A PERFORMANCE 200R4 :
http://www.cpttransmission.com/media.htm

I will have to see if Art Carr will provide me with a parts list for building up the 200R4. I'm certain they do not develop their own parts so with some research, I may be able to find out who they are buying from.

Most of their high performance parts are probably developed by SONNAX and if not, then Sonnax should know who.
http://www.sonnax.com/

This company called PACT Transmission has a huge mega website. They've been actually known to develop their own performance parts for the 700R4 and other transmissions and maybe selling to Art Carr or vise versa.:noidea:

You can actually spend days reading their site but I believe many of the same parts can be found through other suppliers. I've heard good and bad things about their built transmissions, but some of their custom parts are their own unique designs.
P.A.C.T. 200R4 Tip Sheet: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/2004RTIP.htm

PACT 200R4 Parts Page:
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/200-4r.htm


Those pages above will at least give you an idea of the performance parts list, along with the Art Carr articles on building up a 200R4. :yup:

If you go with a 200R4, I would rely on a YANK converter because now that I know about Mike Senia's history with GM and from what I read what all another forums say about his company and converters. However, when I was was worried about my decision with the Precision Converter I bought for my 91 Brougham t00r4 but he said not to worry that I got a good converter from Terry at Precision. I just have a feeling that the YANK converters are better in design.

If you get a non-lockup for the TH400 or a lock-up for a 200R4, definitely get a Trans Cooler to protect that expensive converter and the transmission. It's just a good thing to have as cheep insurance.

Video/Article on YANK Converters:
http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/drivetrain/track-testing-yanks-trailblazer-ss-converters/


Hope this helps a little!

Regards,
Chris:smilewide:

cadchris
02-16-13, 06:11 PM
I forgot to add the price from YANK and I added it above. I had to Edit like 20 times because I went over the "15,000" character/letter limit because my post was so long!
:bonkers: :rofl: :duh:

It's $895 + $115 shipping to Finland Europe for a Non-Lockup Converter on the TH400 Transmission...

I'll have to call Terry at Precision Industries and ask why he didn't quote a price, unless they don't ship to Europe.

3dfx
02-21-13, 10:29 AM
Ok, I read your post and It was very interesting to read.


"If I'm lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torque converter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, will I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems?"

#4. Can you answer this question for him?
The lower gears will cause more slippage on take-off but slippage will be the same as before at road speed.This is great news, My driving is 85% highway driving so, these "take-off problems" don't affect me. Of course, If I'm going to put higher gears to lower my rpm, I will install tranny temp. meter and tranny cooler as well. First I have to find out does my car have any stock cooler in it.


Although Marty at MTS said the cam should be installed at 0 degrees (straight up) on the early high compression motors to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, it really got me thinking about other technology I've hear about in coolant and that cam timing can actually be advanced by using a special coolant called Evans Coolant which is a Non-Aqueous Proplyene Glycol NPG+ and cools cylinder temperature so well to avoid detonation. Their technology states more horsepower, better fuel efficiency and less wear on components since you can run a low pressure radiator cap or zero pressure radiator cap all when using this special highly efficient coolant!

I have a very good article about using this "not well known coolant" which allows an engine to run very high ignition advance and it cools the cylinders so well it avoids detonation! A turbo pickup truck was able to gain 75 hp with this coolant and advanced timing! So this might be something you want to consider in controlling cylinder temps when running advanced timing and running lean carburation for better fuel efficiency without detonation.

I'll have to figure out how to attach this article, but here's the website:
http://www.evanscooling.com/

This coolant seems interesting. One thing which was unclear is the freezing point of this stuff. In Finland, the freezing point should be at least -30 degrees celsius.



I think I will first focus to my engine. First thing in the spring I will do pressure test, pass-leak test and the de-carbonising with some kind of chemical. I don't know do we have Seafoam here in Finland, but we have some (very expensive) Forte-chemicals. They should be professional quality stuff. I have used their radiator cleaner with my Saab, and it did the job very well. Now my coolant is good looking green and not dirty, rusty red. I think I use that same radiator cleaner with my Cadillac. The radiator seemed pretty dirty (that white stuff which comes with the water was everywhere, I dont know what that's stuff's name in english)

I will adjust my points and ignition, when I checked my ignition basic timing in last summer, it was something like 30-40 degrees BTDC. I tried to adjust it but my distributor was so jammed that it did not move...I hadn't been adjusted in ages:crying:

I must change oils in the spring too. I'll take my oil pan off and check if it has any sign of worn timing chain gears in it. If I find some of those gear parts, I'll take my engine out of the car and do complete engine repair and change all worn parts, bearings, piston rings etc. I replace the stock cam with MTS economy cam as well.

If I can't find any traces of broken timing gears, I will drive next summer and start engine repairs in fall when I got warm place to do those things.



By the way, I went to try if my Cadillac still starts easily. It has been in place for 3 to 4 winter months. The starter revolved the engine couple of rounds and BOOM, the engine was running!:D Some people here say that old american motors don't start in winter because it's too cold. I wonder if thats true...At least my motor started, and it was -10 degrees celsius when I started it..

3dfx
03-11-13, 03:20 PM
I had some spare time today and I checked some pointless ignition conversion things.

Petronix has Ignitor branded ignition systems. They are just replacing the points in ignition system and I could use same distributor as before.

Is that Petronix ignitor as good as HEI conversion? That Ignitor costs here 170 euros ( sounds very expensive, I think its lot cheaper in US). Will it worth the price? Petronix system would be more easier than some other HEI system with different advance curves. If I convert to ptronix, should I buy different ignition coil, some kind of "high power"?

"Real" HEI would cost a bit less than 300$ (230 euros?). Does those HEI distributosr have problems with getting spark advance curves right? Or doest it even fit my cadillac? I heard somewhere that power steering pump must be replaced too if I want to use HEI distributor?

Some people here say that converting to Petronix ignitor will give 5litres/100km boost to consumption. That would be great!

Does anyone have any experience about those ignition systems and their affects to MPG?

What about those double point distributors? How will they work?

Submariner409
03-11-13, 03:45 PM
I have used over 30 Pertronix conversions in the Olds 455 marine engines I build. The absolute cat's meow for updating a points distributor. I would suggest that you use the companion Pertronix ignition coil for your system and ballast resistance.

You need to do the conversion, then accurately set timing. As old as your distributor is, there may be additional work needed - vacuum advance trim or actual canister replacement.

deVille33
03-13-13, 02:44 PM
The Pertronix work very well and you do not have to mess with changing pulleys or pumps. they were the answer to worn out shafts in old distributors, which affected dwell times.

cadchris
03-17-13, 02:52 AM
Hi 3dfx,

I sent you 2 "Private Messages" on the HEI. I'll post up the info when I hear back from some of the expert distributor re-builders and what their thoughts are.

Regards,
Chris

----------

3dfx,

I tried to send some other info to you by Private Message, but it will not go through until you clear some of your messages in your "Inbox". I sent you 2 messages, but the 3rd message gets rejected.

Regards,
Chris

3dfx
03-20-13, 11:13 AM
I have cleared my inbox and now it is empty.

Did you get my reply to your private messages?

cadchris
03-20-13, 04:35 PM
----------

No......I didn't get your reply. My box only has 10 messages of 55 allowed.
Maybe try sending it again.

Did you get my first 2 messages that included a few different links on the HEI?

3dfx
03-21-13, 03:29 PM
Did you get my first 2 messages that included a few different links on the HEI?

Yes I did.

SWEENDOG1969
03-22-13, 11:08 PM
cadillac is not for economy.Especially a big v-8,my 69 sedan deville gets about 8 (carb is junk) due to many w.o.t. occurances.

cadchris
03-23-13, 03:52 AM
Hi 3dfx.

I'm just posting this info here and will also send you the 3rd private message on the HEI. I was told that this junkyard in Sweden is the largest American, GM, and Cadillac junkyard for parts in Europe. When going to their site, do a search for "Cadillac". There are a lot of new cars and some old cars. They probably have many old parts in stock for the older Cadillacs.

Here is their website: http://www.bildelarosby.se/

I hope to remember to try and call Al Betker tomorrow because his old e-mail does not work as he was the old owner of MTS and should know about the details of the MTS #3 cam he developed and the 22 mpg 76' Sedan Deville with a 500! The new owner Marty said they lost the info on that car in a computer crash when they bought the company from Al Betker a few years ago..

Here is that link again for other members in case they don't know about it. This cam was developed because the factory cam was said that the intake opening event was 20 degrees After Top Dead Center for the beginning of emmisions regulations back then, and this cam totally woke this motor up with a conventional updated performance/economy grind:
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-245/MTS-%233--dsh--472-fdsh-500/Detail

Regards,
Chris

3dfx
03-25-13, 04:20 PM
I'm just posting this info here and will also send you the 3rd private message on the HEI. I was told that this junkyard in Sweden is the largest American, GM, and Cadillac junkyard for parts in Europe.I must contact them if I can't find HEI parts in Finland.


I hope to remember to try and call Al Betker tomorrow because his old e-mail does not work as he was the old owner of MTS and should know about the details of the MTS #3 cam he developed and the 22 mpg 76' Sedan Deville with a 500!
It would be very interesting to know what modifications Al Betker had made to that Cadillac and how those modifications are compatible to my high compression engine. 76' did have HEI ignition, emission systems and low compression didn't it?

I think my high compression should help me to get better mileage results. Here gas has been always expensive and many older car (80's and older) ran with Premium gas and have high compression engine to get better economy results. All "better" european cars (mercedes, volvo, saab, BMW...) used 99 octane fuel, and soviet cars used 92 (or even lower)octane gas. I don't know what octane USA cars used because no one couldn't afford big, luxurious gas guzzler. Only presidents (btw, one finnish president in the seventies had 69' cadillac) and very wealthy people could afford one. In eighties and nineties, people started to import used big estate wagons like chevy caprice and olds custom cruiser for family cars.

By the way, Why car manufacturers started to make low compression engines in USA?

jayoldschool
03-25-13, 04:39 PM
Why car manufacturers started to make low compression engines in USA

Two reasons: for no lead fuels, and emission requirements.

cadchris
03-25-13, 09:56 PM
I also agree about the beginning of emission requirements but the fuel crisis and the whole OPEC Oil Embargo had to have something to do with it and Detroit had to de-tuned these cars to aim for fuel efficiency.

I'm sure insurance requirements had a little to do with it too, since Detroit lied about HP ratings all those years to keep insurance rates down during the muscle car wars..............a car was cheaper to insure with a reported rating of 200 hp, rather than 500 HP....or so I've heard! Yes a little exaggerated but you get the idea.

cadillac kevin
03-25-13, 11:50 PM
I also agree about the beginning of emission requirements but the fuel crisis and the whole OPEC Oil Embargo had to have something to do with it and Detroit had to de-tuned these cars to aim for fuel efficiency.

I'm sure insurance requirements had a little to do with it too, since Detroit lied about HP ratings all those years to keep insurance rates down during the muscle car wars..............a car was cheaper to insure with a reported rating of 200 hp, rather than 500 HP....or so I've heard! Yes a little exaggerated but you get the idea.

200hp? A buddy of mine had a 400 powered GTO that was rated at 64 hp on the title!

cadchris
03-26-13, 04:01 AM
That's funny.......and I thought I was being conservative!

3dfx
04-01-13, 03:54 PM
Hi, CadChris

Have you been in touch with Al Betker yet?


I've come to think of last summer, and my driving, I remember now one, carburator problem I had. When I shut my warm engine off, and started it again after short perioid of time, the starter roteted the engine but it "jammed" about ½second after I have started starting. Then, ½-1 second silence and after that, the engine started immeatedly.

Try to find out what I tried to mean. I'm not good at explaining these things in english.:(

My friend (who had chevy in the eighties) said leaking needle valve or leaking plugs on the bottom of the carb could cause this. He wasn't sure about that because it has been long time since he has done anything to that carburetor.

The Ape Man
04-01-13, 07:03 PM
Hi, CadChris

Have you been in touch with Al Betker yet?


I've come to think of last summer, and my driving, I remember now one, carburator problem I had. When I shut my warm engine off, and started it again after short perioid of time, the starter roteted the engine but it "jammed" about ½second after I have started starting. Then, ½-1 second silence and after that, the engine started immeatedly.

Try to find out what I tried to mean. I'm not good at explaining these things in english.:(

My friend (who had chevy in the eighties) said leaking needle valve or leaking plugs on the bottom of the carb could cause this. He wasn't sure about that because it has been long time since he has done anything to that carburetor.


Vapor lock. You pointed out the major cause with Cadillacs using Rottenchester carbonators. Leaking fuel well plugs.

cadchris
04-02-13, 12:13 AM
3dfx.........I'll definitely know tomorrow about Al, if not, I tracked down some of his family so I'll start calling them to find out where he is.

I just hope he's not driving those "Big Cadillac's in the Sky" :angel: :caddy: :angel:

Or he's "Down South".:devil:....!

Does this translate correctly in Finnish? If not, Let's all hope he's not dead! :preach:


Any way, when I read your post about the engine locking or stopping for a brief second it makes me think you could have a burned spot on the starter's armature, or a high resistance circuit.......which is very common when any engine has this sort of problem when warm and turned off then restarted. If it doesn't do it all the time, most likely the starters brushes are stopping on a bad spot on the armature and it will keep doing this until the car won't start. The fix is to then beat on the starter and if it starts then when attempting to start the motor, then you know.

Here's a more precise explanation:

Starter motor problems usually are indicated by the following symptom: Turn the key to the START position and you hear a loud click, or sometimes you hear nothing. The headlights are bright and don't dim when you turn the key to START, and everything else electrical seems to work fine. It could be a bad starter neutral switch or a bad key switch but about 99% of the time it's a bad starter or starter solenoid. Here is the procedure for checking out a starter motor and its solenoid.

Problems in a starter motor normally involve a "bad spot" on the commutator, the electrical section of the armature that contacts the brushes. They get dirty and worn down. The brushes sometimes wear out but not normally. Open circuits can occur in the armature or in stator windings. You could fix these problems but the normal procedure is to replace the starter with a rebuilt. If the starter motor armature just happens to stop on a "bad spot" the circuit is open and the starter won't turn. Sometimes you can "rock" the engine by hand (be careful - make sure the ignition switch is off) or in a standard transmission car you can put it in gear and "rock" the car by pushing it forward or backward a few inches - this can move the starter motor off the "bad spot" and get you on your way, but it's a crap shoot as to when it will happen again. Sometimes rapping the starter with a hammer can make temporary contact where the contact was flaky, but you can do more harm to the starter than good if ya hit it too hard!!

Unless this is indeed a Q-Jet problem, but I'm not one to know very much on Carbs........Fuel Injection yes.......carbs very little.

This could also be the starter solenoid going bad, or a bad high resistance internally corroded positive or negative battery cable wire or a bad ground, like an engine ground or the transmission housing ground, or even the starter case does not have a good ground......maybe even an ignition/starter switch problem......even a shorted cell in the battery will do this when the battery is hot, but will still start the car.

Hot components create high electrical resistance which leads me to believe it could be electrical but like the previous poster said, it could be fuel related.:thumbsup:

All of these circuits will need checked by doing Voltage drops and resistance checks but it's better to start using high quality 1600 strand OFC (oxygen free cable) 4 gauge power/ground wires commonly used in high-end stereo systems and to also always use high quality soldered type zinc coated copper battery connectors and ring terminals. That big motor needs a lot of power to start the engine, and will need more as static compression rises with the future Cam/Ignition modifications.

Only solder connectors.......no crimping especially battery cables.....here's how:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDkNMDDrBs

http://www.nationalstandardparts.com/sealedsoldersystemforbatteryterminals.html


High strand cable can be found at a Boat/Marine Store, stereo shops or suppliers on the internet....high strand cable is very flexible....the more strands, more electrons and current getting to the device, but that is common knowledge for the big stereo amps and systems......always use the same gauge wire for the ground as used for power and run additional grounds to the block, body, transmission, and each head of the motor........you can never have enough grounds on a car.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=100-194

There is even a concern when going to an HEI distributor on a high compression motor with a lot of "needed" ignition advanced dialed in, and I need to get better info on when talking to one of the distributor guys or experts on the HEI Modules. There are 4 Pin GM Modules of different types that I need to get a full understanding of the differences, but many guys just use any 4 Pin Module, then there is are some "GM 5 Pin Modules" which has a unique feature that was utilized as an ignition retard when used in the early pre-computer GM Carburated cars with a spark ignition retard module or it may be a primitive ECM used just to retard ignition timing with a knock sensor.

From what I've read I became very curious about the 5 Pin, and started researching regarding the whole HEI topic. The "5 Pin version" of the GM Distributor Ignition Control Module (ICM) was a very early attempt to control knock or pre-ignition on a carburated engine. I read that some people find these controllers in the junkyard, and use the GM 5 Pin Modules for a remedial knock control set-up but there are concerns of harmonic knock frequencies that differ from engine to engine, but some other people use the 5 Pin Ignition Module to retard spark up to 10 degrees only when starting a high compression motor since the starter will have a hard time turning over (starter knock back) with a well advanced HEI both mechanical and vacuum. These people will just hook up the "R" terminal of the module to the "Start Side" of the ignition switch or starter circuit to only briefly retard spark when starting so the engine turns over easily.

I hate to drop everyone into the middle of my HEI research, but lots of good info and links here.....enjoy the benefits of having a GM High Energy Ignition (HEI) Performance...this is only 1 trick of many upgrades and modifications that can be done to improve an HEI Distributor:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/50062-gm-hei-mod-improved-power-fuel.html

COPY AND PASTE THIS LINK AND CLOSE THE SPACES......THIS FORUM WILL NOT ALLOW ME TO POST THESE LINKS:

www . cadillac power . com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=142595

www . cadillac power . com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=142595


I've read about other reason's why GM made that special design which was debated, and it was used to also to retard timing on some GM's around the 70's 80's???? due to inductive starter wire EMF that could advance timing when starting the engine....kind of confusing and complex, but that was just 1 modification I read about doing to an HEI. There's so much out there on the HEI that I've read through over the past month, that I have probably saved over 100 good links and I've probably read 100 bad sites also!

You very well could just use the 4 Pin HEI (ICM) module, and even with a well tuned ignition advance your starter may not have a problem, but since you have a higher compression motor, and will go with the MTS#3 some day, that will add to static compression when starting the engine, and your starter may kick back from all that compression and the trick would be to then use the 5 Pin HEI Module which is no big problem and should be available at any auto parts store around the world or a better Delco one ordered on the internet.

Maybe some others can add to this discussion on the 5 Pin Modules with the ignition "Retard (R)" terminal.

Just another question to ask Al Betker if I can get to speak to him.

I'll give you an update tomorrow.

Regards,
Chris
:salute:

cadchris
04-02-13, 02:41 AM
Something I saved about HEI's written from the famous Automotive Performance Author "JIM HAND" who is a Pontiac Builder.

He states: "Some experimentation with the size of the secondary metering rods on the Q-Jets can significantly improve performance. We do not recommend the metering kits that several Pontiac parts vendors are selling. It is unlikely they will be correct for your application and they are very expensive. All parts are available at a GM dealer. The primary metering system will usually work very well with stock components. On most carbs (especially the Q-Jet), the float can be set about 2/32" lower which will improve economy and hot soak starting problems.

This is a recovered dead website using WAYBACK MACHINE that can recover old dead webpages:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041231074134/http://www.1968firebird.org/jharticles/jharticles3.html

CADforce69
04-02-13, 09:08 AM
I've come to think of last summer, and my driving, I remember now one, carburator problem I had. When I shut my warm engine off, and started it again after short perioid of time, the starter roteted the engine but it "jammed" about ½second after I have started starting. Then, ½-1 second silence and after that, the engine started immeatedly.

Try to find out what I tried to mean. I'm not good at explaining these things in english.:(

My friend (who had chevy in the eighties) said leaking needle valve or leaking plugs on the bottom of the carb could cause this. He wasn't sure about that because it has been long time since he has done anything to that carburetor.

This is what happens to my '69 when engine is hot and you stop it and start it short after (engine temp. 84ºCelsius -183ºF- or more). I´ve been told that this happens when ignition is too advanced, so I´m trying to reduce advance carefully as if I reduce advance too much the engine does not run well when cold. Not easy as I have no strobe gun. I think I´m close to get it by trial and error.

cadchris
04-02-13, 01:47 PM
Which again reflects on a weak starter or bad battery cables, connections, grounds.......maybe even in the distributor.....not sure if burned points could do it, or a coil going bad when hot, or not enough power to the coil through the ballast resistor.

I think it should have around 9 volts to the coil which is why when installing an HEI, it gets a full 12 Volts with out a ballast resistor, and uses a more powerful ignition coil which is why spark plug gaps are set at .060 from the factory on many factory HEI's. Points and ballast resistor 9 volt coil is around 18,000 volts max, where HEI coil can deliver over 40,000 volts but that voltage is never used on a street car.

If you have to retard ignition timing, then you are also reducing static cylinder pressure because something electrical is reducing power and affects the cranking of the motor normally.......hopefully your carburator is not dumping tons of fuel and your raising static pressure that way by filling the cylinder with fuel!

Does your oil have a lot of fuel in it?

CADforce69
04-02-13, 06:13 PM
If you have to retard ignition timing, then you are also reducing static cylinder pressure because something electrical is reducing power and affects the cranking of the motor normally.......hopefully your carburator is not dumping tons of fuel and your raising static pressure that way by filling the cylinder with fuel!

Does your oil have a lot of fuel in it?

No, oil has a normal look. Carb has known far better days but it does not seem to be overfeeding the intake. There would be a strong gas smell and abnormal fuel consumption.

----------


Which again reflects on a weak starter or bad battery cables, connections, grounds.......maybe even in the distributor.....not sure if burned points could do it, or a coil going bad when hot, or not enough power to the coil through the ballast resistor.

I think it should have around 9 volts to the coil which is why when installing an HEI, it gets a full 12 Volts with out a ballast resistor, and uses a more powerful ignition coil which is why spark plug gaps are set at .060 from the factory on many factory HEI's. Points and ballast resistor 9 volt coil is around 18,000 volts max, where HEI coil can deliver over 40,000 volts but that voltage is never used on a street car.


But ballast resistor is supposed to be by-passed until engine is running and alternator is producing electricity. When engine is running (current through ballast resistor) there is no problem :bigroll:

cadchris
04-02-13, 11:25 PM
Forgot about how that ballast works......... I'll admit, no experience with points style distributor, only HEI, and Fuel Injection. I still think it's electrical/starter motor related if you think your condition is similar to what I posted above.

I planned on asking your question to this expert Cadillac guy named Al Betker, but I can't get in touch with him.

----------

3dfx,

Al Betker is a very hard guy to find these days!

His e-mails no longer work, and now all of Al Betker's phone numbers no longer work, I also tried some phone number's I found for his family, and 1 number worked, so I left a message and no answer on the other number. I hope that was his family I called, but I left a detailed message. I also left a message for one of his old well known customers who Al did a lot of work for, so hopefully he can put me in contact with him.

I just found some more phone numbers to try tomorrow........... If that does not work, then I have 2 definite home addresses for him, and I'll write a letter and send it by mail !

I'm sure that will work! :bang2:

I've also done many different searches for Al on other forums, and it looks like his last posts were all around 2008. Also did searches for the "1976 22mpg Cadillac Sedan Deville 500" and only MTS sites come up and a few other forums talking about it but no detailed info.

:hmm:


Regards,
Chris

----------

I remember reading a while ago about Q-Jet leaking problems and using JB Weld epoxy as a fix.

Maybe this will work for certain "Hot Restart Problems with the Q-Jet"

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_1107_home_remedy_quadrajet_carburetor/viewall.html

More links on sealing Q-Jet's plugs, with epoxy:

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204400

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/leaking-quadrajet-138013.html

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/115293/post/803916/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202866

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=116800

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/quadrajet-welch-plugs-supplier-143359.html

http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/parts.html

3dfx
04-03-13, 04:25 PM
Does your oil have a lot of fuel in it?

My oil doesn't have much fuel in it. Of course, my engine burns pretty much oil. So, 1/5 of the oil are fresh in every 1000 kilometers.

MY engine has pretty strong gas smell when I open the hood and the car has ran recently. Also my car accelerator pump leaks from somewhere and sprays some gas over the secondaries. When I rebuild my engine, I'll have to rebuilt carburator too.


I've also done many different searches for Al on other forums, and it looks like his last posts were all around 2008. Also did searches for the "1976 22mpg Cadillac Sedan Deville 500" and only MTS sites come up and a few other forums talking about it but no detailed info.I have tried to search that too. I have tried to search for "MTS #3 cam experiences", but this far, I only got one experience from some forum with that cam. Most of the results are some thing like "What cam I should buy for my Cadillac 500 engine. I need lots of low rpm torque" and people are answering what cam could fit his needs the best. No one is talking about how was the car after the cam swap. When I have done the cam swap, I will definitely post some experiences:dance:



Today I bought new distriburor cap, rotor, points, and spark plugs. Points were 24€:shocked:

I bought some brake parts too. I had to buy whole new brake caliper because brake pistons weren't avainable here:banghead:


Hey, one question about crankshaft wear. Does crankshaft wear much in these engines? I'm just thinking if I'm lucky, I don't have to get my crankshaft honed. I'm not sure if I have only heard rumours but honing is pretty expensive in here.

cadchris
04-03-13, 05:25 PM
Wow.....I hope they were AC Delco points/condensor which would be a great price, but they probably sold you the $2.00 points which would be the 24 Euros or $30.

What was wrong with the points? Was the spring worn, or were they burned? Could you not have sanded the points smooth with very fine sand paper?
Many articles on restoring points:
http://www.glenngoodspeed.com/volvo/POINTS.HTM

Just until you get yourself an HEI to drop in unless their were other problems with the points.

Points are too archaic and draconian for me! :hmm::bonkers::stars:

I also work on Residential and Commercial Air Conditioning Heating Systems, and distributor points remind me of the contactor controller and those contacts are made from Silver Cadmium-Oxide. Most of the time, the contacts just get burned from 220 volts arching and it burns the silver out of the contacts and leaves behind a burned carbon crust. We just disassemble the controller and sand the contacts to a nice shiny surface with very fine sand paper to get the AC up and running quickly during the South Florida summer heat.
http://www.central-air-conditioner-and-refrigeration.com/the-air-conditioner-condenser.html

I'm sure many people do the same with ignition points contacts that are made from tungsten to get a new clean contact surface.

Have you ever heard of RockAuto.com? It is a well known internet parts company here in the U.S. You can see how the price varies from better quality to lower quality points. Hopefully you got the better quality points for that price.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1025356,parttype,11337

I wonder if ROCKAUTO ships to Europe......were there any listings on Amazon Europe or E-bay Europe for those parts?
How are you buying your parts over there for these Cadillacs?

I'm going to try a few more phone numbers again for Al Betker........

CADforce69
04-03-13, 07:19 PM
Have you ever heard of RockAuto.com? It is a well known internet parts company here in the U.S. You can see how the price varies from better quality to lower quality points. Hopefully you got the better quality points for that price.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1025356,parttype,11337

I wonder if ROCKAUTO ships to Europe......were there any listings on Amazon Europe or E-bay Europe for those parts?
How are you buying your parts over there for these Cadillacs?



I buy most common parts for my caddy (and my Dodge) from Rockauto. Yeah, they ship to Europe and provide a good service. I think the best points are AC Delco but those which come without integrated condenser. It´s better buying the condenser separately. These contact-condenser sets are causing some problems with the condenser. Originally the 69 cadillac used the points as one individual part and the condenser with its own wire attached to the distributor plug.

As refers to points I use to choose quality, as it´s a critical part that could leave you stranded. It´s good having always a spare in the car.

cadchris
04-03-13, 08:05 PM
:gah:Well, I just tried another number for Al at his other home, and that number no longer works, I tried the same relative again, and that number just rings.......or nobody home!

I finally got in touch with Matt Garret who had Al build his motor for this beautiful Fleetwood http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/MAVICA.HTM that was sold to Bob Lutz of GM, but he hasn't heard from Al in years and will try to ask around and find some old contact info to him.

I'm going to send 1 more e-mail to a possible family member, and also try Comp Cams and Erson Cams who made those MTS Cams for Al and hopefully they know about the "Legend of the 22 mpg MTS #3 Cam" or maybe someone there knows how to get in touch with Al Betker!

If that doesn't work, I'm going to send 2 letters by regular mail to his homes in hopes he will call me....and maybe I can get him to join here. :worship:

I also left a message for one of the old guys with Erson Cams just now, so I'll wait to see what he says. I'll try Comp Cams tomorrow.
:helpless::violin:

I've done this type of stuff before and won't give up until I find o'l Al !

----------

Just got off the phone with Eric Bolander at Erson Cams, and they only make the VT series for MTS which he said is just a standard "HOTROD" cam. He reviewed the info on the MTS#3 and said he can't make any conclusions on the 3 different sets of specs/numbers of this cams profile so it seems like it has been kept very vague and a secrecy surrounding this cams grind..........
:canttalk:

I'm surprised no one ever put it on a CAM DOCTOR or other machine to measure it and post the info......

Well........Comp Cams tomorrow.

cadillac_al
04-03-13, 08:29 PM
It sounds like we aren't talking fuel economy any more.... If an old v8 turns over hard when hot, and you think the timing is too far advanced, a quick and easy work around is to give the accelerator a couple pumps before turning the key. That usually makes them kick right over. If it has no effect then you can start diagnosing the starting circuit or possible bad starter.

cadchris
04-03-13, 08:42 PM
:thumbsup:

cadchris
04-03-13, 10:49 PM
I thought I'd post this just as a joke.

I wonder if that 76' 22mpg Deville used these old radioactive spark plugs::ohnoes:

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer%20products/sparkplugs.htm

:wacky:

talismandave
04-03-13, 11:55 PM
Cool!:D

3dfx
04-04-13, 03:43 PM
What was wrong with the points? Was the spring worn, or were they burned? Could you not have sanded the points smooth with very fine sand paper?
Many articles on restoring points: Well, the points looked pretty bad. I had a chat with this cars last owner (who had owned this car for ower ten years) and he said that he only drove this car. He didn't do any maintenance etc.

I want my car to be reliable and I think any trics with burned points won't turn them into new. I'll leave the old points to my car drunk if the new ones will burn or something else happens to them.


Have you ever heard of RockAuto.com? It is a well known internet parts company here in the U.S. You can see how the price varies from better quality to lower quality points. Hopefully you got the better quality points for that price. Yes I have.

I have compared those prices with Finland prices and the problem is that shipping to Europe is very expensive and with shipping cost added to original price, the price could be even higher than prize in Finland. Only way ordering becomes cheaper is "group ordering". For exaple, if I can get something like 4 to 10 people to order from there and split the shipping cost, ordering could be reasonable.

cadchris
04-04-13, 07:46 PM
Cool!:D

I forgot to add this tid-bit! Polonium-210 is used by assassin's too!
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/11/polonium_poisoning_if_yasser_arafat_was_murdered_h ow_will_they_know.html

But, I bet it made a good spark plug. There were some very innovative scientist back then, and I wonder if that plug today with active Polonium could have made serious fuel mileage gains.......maybe the idea was to make the combustion chamber into a nuclear reactor then blow out the spent by-product out the tail pipe! I wonder what the E.P.A. would say today!

Taken from another Forum: The radioactive plugs, made by Firestone, were researched by a national testing lab. The lab found that the claims by the Firestone Company were in fact correct. For about 30 days! Aparrently the radiation did break down the fuel into smaller particals, making combustion more effecient, but the short half life of the Polonium made it inneffective after about 30 days.

Like Marty McFly said in the movie: Back to the Future: "Doc, Are you telling me that this sucker is nuclear?" :bulging:

cadchris
04-06-13, 02:05 AM
3dfx,

Eric Bollander of ERSON Cams told me to call Gene Donnell COMP Cams who has been there for many years and I called him today. He did not know that COMP is/was making the cams for MTS, but will find out next week and have someone who specializes in the old Cadillac's call me next week.

Tomorrow, I'm going to send a letter by mail to the 2 different home addresses of Al Betker and that should work, because I have never received any phone calls from family members that I left messages for....unless they were not related to him.

For the past 2 months, I've been reading a lot of information about the GM HEI's, GM Points Distributors, Pertronix conversions, and recently found some very complex articles from another distributor expert about theses 2 different distributor types especially about how to recurve each type of distributor to obtain the optimum advance. It's much more complicated than the past 100 links of forums, magazine articles that I saved that talked about it. It is a highly specialized art that many distributor companies most likely do not do......I'm actually over-welmed from what I've read and even more confused now, but will pass this info on, but hopefully Al Betker will answer all questions!

I think that again, most of the power and economy is going to be achieved by the modifications to the distributors advance of either a points or HEI style distributor, and then matched with carb tuning with the MTS#3 Cam. This recent forum had the most technical discussion about recurving any distributor either HEI, or Points type, and they all agreed that the advance needs to match the cam, converter stall, car weight, transmission, gears, and combustion chamber/heads efficiency.......so the advance needs adjusted methodically and not in general like many company's do or what is written in the car magazines.

When you replace your points, it would be a good idea to note and write down for future reference, ALL numbers or stampings on the centrifugal weights and center shaft weight and distributor housing? The numbers on the weights may be stamped on the under side of the weights and is probably not worth taking it apart now and risk loosing a spring if it flies off when taking it apart......so be careful, unless you also bought a new spring kit. But all the experts agree NOT to use aftermarket distributor weights because they are too light, and are not made to the correct shape and dimensions and are even drilled wrong from China. This includes the performance kits by Accel/Mr. Gasket. If you don't have the original weights in the distributor, you may want to find original New Old Stock weights.......hopefully that distributor is the original that came on the engine.

Also, note and write down the distributor housing numbers, vacuum advance number on the shaft that connects to the base plate and make sure your "vacuum advance" holds vacuum with a vacuum pump to be sure the diaphram is o.k. Make sure you can see the advance working when doing this.

I went crazy on my friends Mustang, (which did have a Pertronix unit), because so many other idiots had their hands on the car goofing around with it. The vacuum advance would hold vacuum but would not advance the distributor......found out eventually, that someone put a small ball bearing deep inside the vacuum line to stop the vacuum advance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:banghead: :gah:

Since he worked for the government, that 65 Mustang went around the world, and some expert Mustang mechanic out of Melbourn Australia even missed this and couldn't get the car to run good......the builder/restorer even had missmatched parts from the PAW Engine Kit, and torque converter. I spent months going through his paper work which was all lies of what he supposedly had.


Also, make sure the weights and base-plate moves freely and has some kind of appropriate grease on the advance weights and base-plate.

Since you payed so much money for the Points, here is some very good advice on using the correct grease and lubrication so you don't damage your new points:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=261131

Maybe you can find this Distributor Cam Lube over in Europe:
http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=16866

Then there's this conversation by the Ferrari Guy's debating on that grease if the points have a "felt wick" that is used for oil! :hmm:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/153950-point-cam-lube-whats-best.html

But you still need to use a lighter lubricant on the weights and pivots.

Just so you know, if you can find a Petronix I or II somewhere over there for a good deal and cheap, maybe even used, it maybe worth it as a quick upgrade and just keep the old point in the car like many do..

But, only get the Pertronix Ignitor I #1181 and NOT the 1181 LS or if you can find an Ignitor II #91181.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyk22-sVRhE

Here is what 1 expert said who likes to use the Pertronix Ignitors:

"Two different versions of this are manufactured. The good one has the magnet ring which bolts under the rotor and weight assembly, and uses a "hall effect" sensor for triggering...very reliable.

The bad one fires off the lobes of the point cam. It has the "LS" designation in the part number denoting "lobe sensor". Any wear on the lobes will show up as inaccurate cylinder to cylinder timing variations. Also, the signal strength generated to trigger the circuit is far less reliable than the neodymium magnets used in the other version.

Interestingly, they sell both units for about the same price........................"


If you can find either a used or new Pertronix Ignitor that is really cheap, then it may be worth trying out before upgrading to an HEI, or CDI ignition some day.

You may want to make a list from the Pertronix Catalog of what other cars/trucks used the #1181, and check out distributors in salvage yard cars or at parts swap meets....you may get lucky some day!:thumbsup:
http://www.pertronix.com/catalogs/pdf/ptx/2012/ptx2012_ignition_conv.pdf

Regards,
Chris

jayoldschool
04-06-13, 12:29 PM
You two need a Skype account.

:D

cadchris
04-06-13, 01:24 PM
You should really see what I collected and have debating on posting!!!!!!!!! A lot of in depth HEI mods, form and function of the transistorized module and different pickup coils and other mods vs. Pertronix that most do not know about because I had to sort through hundreds of b.s. websites and forums.

I think I'll start different threads on a few of these in depth topics with tons sources/links and just post the threads links back here to try and keep the this thread a little cleaner than I made it!

I don't think Skype would work in this case, because I'm not sure if 3dfx speaks English, and I haven't brushed up on my Finnish! He's probably using the auto translator! But I must say, he's doing a great job at posting!

I just spent the last few nights correcting and re-writing a legal complaint from broken Russian/English to lega'eez English for my of my old neighbor who is a Russian Engineer. I'm glad I knew from an engineering standpoint of what the hell he was talking about!

By the way, I'm certainly not the "King of One Liners"! Google it! I'm kind of "Older Schooled" than you!

I have to get this letter out to Al Betker today..........I hope he responds.

jayoldschool
04-06-13, 04:39 PM
I would say that he probably speaks English fluently.

I was joking about Skype. Keep posting here, I'm sure others enjoy reading it.

3dfx
04-07-13, 08:00 AM
I don't think Skype would work in this case, because I'm not sure if 3dfx speaks English, and I haven't brushed up on my Finnish! He's probably using the auto translator! But I must say, he's doing a great job at posting! I agree. Skype would not work.

In forum like this, I have plenty of time to read posts and answer them. In chat type discussion, I would not have much time to answer and I think that would be the main reason why Skype wouldn't work.

About auto-translators. I think they work with two languages very similar to each other. Finnish and English are two very different languages and auto translator doesn't work. It's a great tool but I can't fully rely on that.

For exaple we don't have any strict word order in sentences. We can pretty freely put words to any order in sentence. That's why Yoda's speak in Star Wars doesn't work at all when translated to Finnish. This is one reason why my word order in english sentences can be wrong and funny.:)

Finnish language doesn't have any prepositions. For exapmple, if we take word "car", "auto" in finnish. If something is in the car, english says "in car" but in finnish it's "autossa". We put letters in to back of the word instead of using separate prepositions. We also don't have this " ' " letter in our language, so finnish people may forget it often when writing english. We often write "dont" instead of "don't".

And one thing I would you to know about finnish language. We don't use word "please" like engish speakers use. In finnish language we say word please only in the situations like if someone is pointing someone with a gun. Then we could say "Please put the gun down". "Please" is used only if begging for mercy. Many finnish people who donät speak english daily forget to say "please" because it's so abnormal in our language to use that word everywhere and this can lead to awkward situations. We don't mean to be rude if we don't say please. I'm sorry if I have forgotten to say "please" in some point of the conversation.

One language expert told me that finnish language is writing-based and english is speaking-based. Many finnish can remember how english words are written but not how it's pronounced.

I'm no language expert but I think these are to main reasons why auto-translators don't work and why some of my texts may be funny in your opinion :bwahaharoll4vu:

Okay, and back to cadillacs:bonkers:


Yesterday I drove a little bit with my cadillac and I noticed that my gas tank is leaking dramatically. Something like 30-50 liters of fuel had evaporated from the gas tank in the winter:gah: well, I'll have to fix that before I'll start driving with cad again. This can be one reason why I have bad economy. In summer gas evaporates even more because it's hotter. Hope I can squeeze out one or two mpg just by fixing that leaking gas tank.

talismandave
04-07-13, 09:46 AM
Very interesting explanation of the language. Thank you.
I have been following this thread and enjoying the conversation.
You manage very the language problem well.:thumbsup:

jayoldschool
04-07-13, 11:32 AM
That's why Yoda's speak in Star Wars doesn't work at all when translated to Finnish

This made me laugh!

cadchris
04-07-13, 03:01 PM
Very interesting 3dfx,

You don't have to put the gun down:gun: , but can you "PLEASE" :lol:tell me this?........I guess you learned to speak and write English...right? If so your doing very well. Now you just have to teach us the "bad words" in Finnish you say every time you go to fill the gas tank or when something goes wrong with your Caddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does the "Please" word apply to Sweden......if so, I'll have to start joking with my Swedish neighbor and tell him he didn't say "PLEASE"!

Is your car physically leaking liquid fuel like a fuel line leak or hole in the gas tank, or maybe that problem with the Q-Jets plugs that leak and cause the hot start problem, or is it just evaporating?

I don't know the fuel systems well on this car, but did the 1968 have a EVAP system or a sealed or vented tank.....I guess not according to ROCKAUTO.... I wonder if adding one of the simpler EVAP systems would prevent further evaporation Anyone?

I checked out ROCKAUTO, and it looks like that the gas cap is a "non-vented" style cap which should prevent the quick evaporation of the butane and other components. Did you use a fuel stabilizer additive before putting this car in storage?

Did you have summer fuel in that tank or winter fuel? I'm sure Finland also changes formulations like the U.S. so the gas does not evaporate during the summer months, but 8-13 U.S. gallons of fuel is a lot of fuel missing from your tank!:hmm:

Was the tank full when you stored it and how did you come up with that much fuel missing?

Unless, someone "borrowed" some of your fuel? I hope you have a locking gas cap with those prices !!!!
Like here:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1025356,parttype,5900

Most likely, your fuel tank cap check valve is defective and allowing tank vapors to vent from the tank quickly.

Here's some good and straight forward background on the subject of "Summer versus Winter Gas" and it's evaporation characteristics:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/March-2012/Why-Gas-Is-So-Expensive-During-the-Summer-And-Especially-in-Chicago/

http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/winterGas/winterGas.html

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/summer-fuel1.htm


Here's how the early GM EVAP system worked and contained vapors for emmisions reasons....I wonder if it would further assist in evaporation for slight improvement in economy.....you could always put an old early GM EVAP system on!
http://www.aa1car.com/library/evap_system.htm

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/294

http://www.diycardoctor.com/automotive_evap_system.htm


Every teaspoon of fuel saved will help at those prices!:D

3dfx
04-07-13, 04:12 PM
.I guess you learned to speak and write English...right? Well, my english speaking isn't very good because I don't need it anywhere in my everyday life. Writing is much better because everything in internet is in english and all cadillac service manuals are in english. Before I bought cadillac, I had only Saab cars. Saab's shop manuals were written in finnish (maybe because some of them was made in Finland). I haven't found any cadillac manuals in finnish, I even asked one garage which had sold and repaired cadillacs in the sixties and they didn't have any manuals left.:( No one didn't remember has there ever been any finnish cadillac manuals.


Now you just have to teach us the "bad words" in Finnish you say every time you go to fill the gas tank or when something goes wrong with your Caddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

They don't work if I write them down. You have to pronounce them right. Then they really to the job (My opinion is that they do the job better than english ones :lol: You can really unleash all you anger to those words). Finnish "bad words" sounds like some old two-stroke single cylinder motorcycles on idle without silencer:rofl:

Filling gas tank isn't as bad as every year vehicle inspections. That inspection engineer finds always some little fault in peoples cars and and gives fail and one month time to fix it. I'll have to pay something like 70 euros from that inspection and more if my car fails...Last week I drove one toyota to vehicle inspection and hope that the inspector wouldn't stab his iron stick throught that toyotas floor. Luckily he didn't found the weak spot. That floor really had lots of weak spots...


Is your car physically leaking liquid fuel like a fuel line leak or hole in the gas tank, or maybe that problem with the Q-Jets plugs that leak and cause the hot start problem, or is it just evaporating?
My car is physically leaking liquid too. First it only leaked when the tank as full. I thought that was normal because my friend has some old tractors and they all leak a bit gas out from "overflow" line when tank is filled.

I smelled strong gas smell under the car yesterday, so guess it's leaking.



Did you have summer fuel in that tank or winter fuel? I'm sure Finland also changes formulations like the U.S. so the gas does not evaporate during the summer months, but 8-13 U.S. gallons of fuel is a lot of fuel missing from your tank!I'm not sure about this. I know that we have summer and winter diesel, but I don't have any clue do we have summer/winter gas. I'll have to find out.


Was the tank full when you stored it and how did you come up with that much fuel missing?The tank was quater or half full. Now it was empty (according to fuel gauge).


Unless, someone "borrowed" some of your fuel? I hope you have a locking gas cap with those prices !!!!Fuel "borrowing" is pretty uncommon in finnish countryside and I would have seen the footprints in snow if someone would have walked near my car. But this doesn't mean it couldn't be possible. I'll have to buy locking gas cap.

cadchris
04-08-13, 02:03 AM
They don't work if I write them down. You have to pronounce them right. Then they really to the job (My opinion is that they do the job better than english ones You can really unleash all you anger to those words). Finnish "bad words" sounds like some old two-stroke single cylinder motorcycles on idle without silencer

That's really funny! :histeric::rofl: I bet the woman over there can really let you have it! :duck: :dummy:

From how you describe the Finnish swear words, it must sound a lot like "KLINGON"!


Filling gas tank isn't as bad as every year vehicle inspections. That inspection engineer finds always some little fault in peoples cars and and gives fail and one month time to fix it. I'll have to pay something like 70 euros from that inspection and more if my car fails.

Here in the U.S. there are known tricks to beat emissions...and eventually, I was going to do an big write-up on different fuel additives and mixtures. It sounds like the "Finnish Emissions Police" are really hard-asses so here's some U.S tricks to play on them.
:stirpot:

A known trick is adding "Methanol" to the fuel before a test which burns very clean and hot, and after the test, fill the fuel tank to dilute it since Methanol is hard on older seals and lines. Many people will put a few bottles of "HEET" (YELLOW BOTTLE) to around 6 gallons of fuel. HEET is used as a fuel anti-freeze and is purified methanol not ethanol. (Methanol, is also known as methyl alcohol, wood alcohol, wood naphtha or wood spirits, which is a chemical with the formula CH3OH (often abbreviated MeOH) and can be bought at your local paint store or where RACE GAS is sold and they will give you the best known mix rate for gasoline).

ISO HEET RED BOTTLE is a different formulation and only contains isopropanol/isopropyl alcohol and not the same as Methanol. http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3D0E.aspx

An old product here in the U.S. is RxP Gas Kicker and is mostly forgotten about since the original inventor died. http://www.rxp.com/ Not sure if its available in Europe or if its under a different label. This stuff came out years ago to beat emissions testing and the auto parts stores had to place it behind the counter because people would steal it since it worked great for only $7 a bottle to pass emissions!
:dance: :nyanya:

This company also got in trouble with the EPA because they were marketing it to "cheat emissions testing" and they had to change their advertisements because many owners would use it then never fix their cars.

I recently was researching these products and spoke to the company a few times and their technical guy. RxP has a very strange corporate structure that seems non-existent! The original owner died http://www2.rxp.com/ who I guess originally established the company and the industrial accounts along with the automotive accounts, and left the business to his daughter. They have an industrial product line http://www.flamex.com/Page2.htm that has a similar additive technology for welding fuel and propane which is in fact methanol based according to their MSDS sheet. The RxP is a secret formulation and very vague. I nor other's can figure out what it really contains...but I have a feeling it does contain Methanol. Some day soon, I'm going to join a forum that cost $100 per year to discuss all of these additives with industry experts: chemists, tribologist, and physicist. There are even a few technologies I want to run by them which will put their expertise to the test!
:hmm:

I guess the "RxP" works and can be used in every tank for fuel efficiency, and de-carbonization of the combustion chambers and to cheat the emissions testing just like Methanol, but it must have a chemical "buffer" in it, which is not the word I'm looking for, but if it has Methanol, it must be combined with something else to lessen the solevancy and corosiveness of the Methanol is on seals. I'm going to do some test when I get my boro-scope fixed or buy a new one and also find someone local with a 5 gas analyzer since Florida has not had emission testing for 15 yrs!

There are some interesting Youtube videos about RxP. Go to Youtube and search for "Ed Wallace RxP" who is well known and has a radio talk show on car repairs. I'm sure that this was not a payed advertisement for Rxp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzanzSwUZ2A


I smelled strong gas smell under the car yesterday, so guess it's leaking.

You could have a hole in the top of the tank or just a bad seal where the sending unit goes into the tank.

Here is a great way to find all kinds of different leaks. UV Dye added to the coolant, oil, trans, A/C, fuel and it floureses or glows under UV light along with the use of special yellow glasses and to use in the dark to look for leaks.
http://www.amazon.com/Oil-Fuel-Dye-oz-374CS/dp/B000OIAQLQ

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=uv+dye+oil+fuel+&rh=n%3A15684181%2Ck%3Auv+dye+oil+fuel+



The tank was quater or half full. Now it was empty (according to fuel gauge).

There is also a possiblity that your fuel sending unit could be defective from high sulfur fuels that got into the fuel supply over the years. There was a huge controversy here in the U.S. in the southern states when a fuel refinery called MOTIVA that sold fuel to Shell, Texaco, Marathon and others "accidentally" was sold fuel that contained too much sulfur. Many cars were suddenly coming into the dealerships that ran out of gas, but the gauge still indicated the tank still had fuel.....! GM and other manufactures use a silver coated finely wound wire for the sending unit and the sulfur contamination in the fuel coated this wire and screwed up the fuel gauge. There was a huge Class Action Lawsuit against the fuel refinery "MOTIVA", and I had 3 claims at $800 per car and I did get payed for my fuel sending units to be replaced on my two 91 Cadillac's and 87 Corvette.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2004-06-18/news/0406180110_1_gas-gauge-texaco-stations-gas-stations

Also:
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/03/autos/hy-wheels3

It was alleged that Motiva tried to cheat the consumers and not further refine a lot of high sulfur crude they had purchased and intentionally sold off the high sulfur fuel instead of refining it and took a chance to send it out to gas stations.........GM was not going to warranty million's of dollars of fuel sending units on new cars, so GM, Ford, Chrysler went after MOTIVA and initiated the Class Action.

Even low levels of sulfur will affect the fuel gauge's accuracy over time. So after this big problem, Chevron then developed a special fuel additive that cleans the fuel sending units because the Sulfur will still slowly build up on the "silver coated sensor". It's called: Techron Concentrate "PLUS" not their regular Techron additive which contains PEA which is a carbon cleaner. The compound in the Techron Concentrate PLUS cleaner is a combination of a certain poly(oxyalkylene) amine and a thiadiazole compound. It was also packaged for GM by Chevron: "GM Fuel System Treatment Plus (#88861011)" and is 3 times the cost at the dealer for the GM Brand rather than the Techron Plus brand which can be purchased at the auto parts stores or on-line.

Advance Auto just had it on sale "buy one get one free" $12.

Use it occasionally, until they take out ALL sulfur in the fuel.

Hopefully they will just remove all the sulfur from gas which would be better than the addition of ethanol, would drastically lower pollution, and would increase combustion efficiency, but of course will be at an inflated cost:crybaby: This was just in the news:
http://fuelfix.com/blog/2013/01/21/governors-make-pitch-for-low-sulfur-gasoline/


In case you wanted to know more.......here's an in depth discussion on "Summer Blend Fuels":
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2374


Sorry for the long dissertation..........

:preach:

3dfx
04-09-13, 03:20 PM
Here in the U.S. there are known tricks to beat emissions...and eventually, I was going to do an big write-up on different fuel additives and mixtures. It sounds like the "Finnish Emissions Police" are really hard-asses so here's some U.S tricks to play on them. Emissions aren't problem. Emissions aren't checked in cars made before 1978. Allmost every car beats that first emission standard if all cylinders will work right. Strict emission standards came as late as 1991 or 1992. Then catalytic converter is a must if you want to pass.

What kinds of emission standards you have in U.S? Here in Finland, emissions must be checked every year in cars made later than 1978. We check HC (hydrocarbons), CO and O2 from cars. First emission standards ( cars made between 1978 and 1986) are pretty easy to beat, You can have max. 1000ppm HC and 4,5% CO on idle. O2 value doesn't have any official value. Many vehicle inspectors keep 5% as limit. If O2 is more than 5%, the exhaust will leak and car fails. Only exeption is old amrican cars with air pump. They can have more than 5% O2.

Second standards (cars made between 1986 and 1991) is bit more difficult to beat than the first standard. You can have max. 600 ppm HC and 3,5% CO on idle, if the car isn't equipped with catalytic converter or registered as low-emission vehicle.

Third standards are pretty strict and because of them you'll have to repair fine running engine just because it doesn't pass the emission test:banghead: Those late 80s and early to mid 90s cars with fuel injection just suck... In third standard which applies on cars made between 1991 and 2000 and on cars which are registered as low-emission vehicles, you can have max. 100ppm HC and 0,5% CO on idle, and 100HC and 0,3% CO on "intercreased idle" (something like 2000 to 3000 rpm)

From 2000 on idle test is replaced with OBD scan and emission test from "intercreased idle" is same as before but CO standard is lowered to 0,2 %.

Those test apply only on gas powered cars. Diesel cars have their own test where throttle pedal is pressed to floor and kept there for something like two seconds. The dieseltester will measure how much smoke came out from the exhaust.

What kind of emission tests you have on U.S?


Corrosion is the biggest problem in old cars (and in some new, for example, some mazda6 cars failed first inspection (made two years after new vehicle is bought) because there was a hole in their floor) Here roads are kept unfrozen by spreading salt all over the highway and salt dramatically speeds up the corrosion. Salt only works if temperature on the outside is more than -6 degrees celcius. I don't know whats the point in spreading salt because when salt is spreaded all over the highway on the day time it unfreezes the road. When night comes and temperature goes down, liquid salt-water-combination starts to froze and makes very slippery black ice on the road. It's way more sippery than the road before spreading salt. The road is unfrozen only couple of hours in the day, but most of the time its very slippery and frozen...







A known trick is adding "Methanol" to the fuel before a test which burns very clean and hot, and after the test, fill the fuel tank to dilute it since Methanol is hard on older seals and lines. Many people will put a few bottles of "HEET" (YELLOW BOTTLE) to around 6 gallons of fuel. HEET is used as a fuel anti-freeze and is purified methanol not ethanol. (Methanol, is also known as methyl alcohol, wood alcohol, wood naphtha or wood spirits, which is a chemical with the formula CH3OH (often abbreviated MeOH) and can be bought at your local paint store or where RACE GAS is sold and they will give you the best known mix rate for gasoline). I'll have to keep these things at mind if I ever buy a car newer than 1992 or some of my cars doesn't pass emission tests.


You could have a hole in the top of the tank or just a bad seal where the sending unit goes into the tank.I'll have to check that out when I start to fix brakes on my car. I just bought some high jack stands to get more space to work under the car:)

cadchris
04-09-13, 05:37 PM
I haven't had to deal with emissions testing for years. Florida has no safety or emissions testing which I'm really against. So many junk unsafe cars on the road, but our air quality is wonderful! All of our pollution gets carried by the on shore ocean breeze and blown to the Gulf of Mexico and Texas suffers from our smog and has the highest pollution in the country!

From what I remember, California and Arizona always had the strictest emissions program called the IM240 which is a much different test and measures the quantity of gases in "grams per mile" and the car is driven on a dyno. I'm sure they use an even more strict program today. Any cars sold in California also have additional equipment and devices added to the cars for better emissions control. If you buy a car outside of California, and move there, it is a big problem since the car does not have this additional equipment.........was like that for years unless all new cars are now California approved.

http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/16-hitec.pdf

Other states here in the U.S. use more of the traditional testing standards:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

I really can't find a list for limits here in the U.S.. Not sure if this applies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_standard

Here is a list per state but you will have to click on each state to see what the limitations are:
http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?content=emissions&g=semaga

Maybe others know........

I missed the call from COMP CAMS today and left a message again........maybe they know something.

3dfx
04-10-13, 04:56 PM
Florida has no safety or emissions testing which I'm really against. So many junk unsafe cars on the road, but our air quality is wonderful! All of our pollution gets carried by the on shore ocean breeze and blown to the Gulf of Mexico and Texas suffers from our smog and has the highest pollution in the country!

Some kind of safety checking is good. I think the best solution would be every year safety check for cars that are max. 20 years old. Over 20 year old cars should have safety check about every second year. I donät know how much people drive with old cars in U.S, but here in Finland most of the daily-driven cars are newer than 20 years old. Almost no one drives with old cars. Every year safety inspection is just nonsence with old cars.

Here air quality is great too. I think Finnish towns haven't ever had any smog problems. Maybe it's because we only have small towns here. Our biggest town, Helsinki, has about 600 000 people living there in the heart of the city.

In Finland, those pollution checks and car pollution tax is nonsence. We don't have any smog problems. Every year "vehicle tax" is paid by how much CO2 emissions does car have (exept old cars, they are taxed by weight). The more CO2 emissions your car has, the more you will pay. This is just nonsence. CO2 is one of the non-harmfull gas which comes out from the exhaust. Of course, it's a greenhouse gas but we in Finland are so small nation that we can't influence anything what comes to greenhouse gas pollution. Pollution standards are becoming more strict too fast and car manufacturers have to use systems like EGR in their cars. Those EGR really suck and manifolds look often the same as old twostrokers exhaust. One diesel car I fixed had so much oil/carbon inside manifold that my little finger was too big to fit the hole. There was something about quater inch hole in it.....:bonkers: These kinds of systems are just irrational..

As long as we are on EU, and as long as there is The Green party and EU enthusiasts in government, we can't wait anything good to happen. People in Green party thinks they are saving the world etc. They should stop thinking their fantasies and start being realistic. Many international companies have left Finland because our taxing isn't long-term (suddenly some taxes will rise and some taxes will come down), we have high tax rates and high wages, pretty strong labor union and we have too strict pollution standards. For example, there's coming the "sulphur directive" (about in year 2014), which denies ships using traditional and cheap diesel and forces them to use expensive low-sulphur diesel. Something like 90% of our export is based on ships. This directive may cause from hundreds to thousands (or even tenthousands) of people to lose their job because shipping is so expensive. The stupidest thing in this directive is that south EU states doesn't have to start using this low sulphur diesel before 2020. So, Finland is paying the developement of technology for low-sulphur diesels and the others just copy it when year 2020 comes.

Can you imagine that our government accepted this kind of crazy directive and one of our representative in EU (from the green party....) was recommending and advocating this directive??:helpless:


Any cars sold in California also have additional equipment and devices added to the cars for better emissions control. If you buy a car outside of California, and move there, it is a big problem since the car does not have this additional equipment.........was like that for years unless all new cars are now California approved.
Couple of my frinds have cars from california, and they have lots of those pollution stuff. Usually that stuff are just thrown away from cars:D

cadchris
04-17-13, 11:58 PM
3dfx,

I sent you a private message.....please let me know if you got it?

Regards,
Chris
:thumbsup:

3dfx
04-18-13, 02:28 PM
I answered your message.


Okay, today I got those stuff I ordered couple of weeks ago. Plugs were AC-Delco. I'll have to check the accurate specs of those spark plugs later. The points were not AC-Delco, they were Standard. Is that a good manufacturer? I forgot to buy new distributor cap and rotor. Well, guess I just clean them properly and put them back in. I got some brake parts too, but I didn't get any brake calipers. The seller said that they were out of stock because they all are re-manufactured and there were no old ones to remanufacture. Brake pistons weren't avainable at all. One of my friend has a CNC-lathe at work so he could machine new brakepistons to me from stainless.

I know couple of guys who have made this kind of things and they got them to work better than the original chrome coated pistons. I should ask them more.


Maybe next week, I can get my car pressure tested, pass leak tested and emission tested. That should tell a lot about the engine condition.

3dfx
05-14-13, 04:45 PM
Today I took my gas tank down and it was in pretty good contidion althought there was strong gas smell. Well, guess I'll have to replace those old fuel hoses and hose clamps with new ones. Old hose clamps looked pretty bad..

3dfx
05-22-13, 03:55 PM
I took pass-leak test and pressure test from my car.

Pass leak's were something about 30% and all leaked from piston rings.

All my cylinders has over 10 bar pressures in pressure test.

I'll post some more spesific results tomorrow.

cadchris
05-22-13, 09:43 PM
I should've posted an exact and precise procedure for these tests that I put together. Sorry.........

Did you do the compression check both with a cold engine, and then a hot engine, throttle plate wide open and fuel pump disconnected and carb. bowls empty, with a fully charged battery along with even a battery charger connected to keep the engine rotating consistently?

There is a whole methodical sequence on doing this test that many don't do.

I always even do a video of the cranking pressure of each compression stroke to the maximum pressure of each cylinder. It's just good to do to go back and compare numbers after doing a ring soak to see if compression increases.

Also after each test, did you put a squirt of heavy duty 40 weight oil in each plug hole and do the compression test again to see if compression increases. If the compression increases, then it's directly related to the rings not sealing but it's still possible that the rings nor the cylinder are not worn.....I always suspect its carboned rings that are stuck and not expanding freely.

I think all your rings are probably heavily carboned due to the neglect from the former owner who didn't change the oil and the cylinders just need a good chemical hot soak which would not hurt and would soften the carbon to allow the rings to expand to increase compression. Every car can benefit from a ring soak which can be performed without taking the heads off or doing a rebuild.

10 bars equals 145 psi here in the U.S. Probably a little low for that high compression motor. 10% leakage is about the rule of being normal. Not sure what others have to say is really normal on these Big Block Cadillac Motors. I think I saved a website which gave the specification on a compression test for your motor.

Not sure if I sent you this one of many articles I've saved on the subject, but they do the leak down test also at BDC:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/viewall.html

What this article misses as do many articles on the subject is any engine can benefit with a chemical ring soak to soften any carbon in the ring lands.

There are also many chemicals that can be used and I can post more in detail.

Sorry I didn't get that together sooner for you.

By the way, I got a message from the person who runs the "CADDY 500 Forum" and have been in contact with him about your car putting some info together for you and I was hoping he could find Al Betker. I'm very disappointed that I could never find him after doing a lot of research. He did tell me that someone from Fineland joined their forum a few weeks ago and he thought it may have been you.......did you join over there also?

Regards,
Chris

3dfx
05-23-13, 12:07 PM
Here are the specific results of pass-leak test and compression test:

Pass-leak results:
Cyl. 1 24%
Cyl. 2 20%
Cyl. 3 28%
Cyl. 4 40%
Cyl. 5 36%
Cyl. 6 30%
Cyl. 7 26%
Cyl. 8 30%

Compression test results:
Cyl. 1 13 Bar
Cyl. 2 13 Bar
Cyl. 3 14.5 Bar
Cyl. 4 11 Bar
Cyl. 5 12.5 Bar
Cyl. 6 11.5 Bar
Cyl. 8 11 Bar

I couldn't get any results from 7th cylinder because there was some air condition stuff in my way. My engine was cold when I did this test. I didn't have time for test with hot engine. I put some oil into cylinder when I did pass leak test and pass leak somewhere near 10%.

I should get something to de-carbon my rings. I should ask my local USA-parts dealer does he have any Seafoam etc. What chemicals exacly are in Seafoam?


I tried to adjust my ignition too, but my distributor was jammed. It doesn't rotate at all. I have heard I should mix atf and acetone 50-50 and put that stuff all over the foot of distributor.

How much do you inflate your tires? I inflated something near 40 psi. I'm going to test how much does inflating affect mpg. I will drop my inflate to 33 psi when I get some mpg calculations with 40psi inflated tires.

cadchris
05-23-13, 04:03 PM
Here's a site that converts "Bar to PSI" so everyone can interpret your readings:

http://www.convertunits.com/from/bar/to/psi

Your basically getting 150psi - 210psi. That's a big difference but I expect the reading should be closer and more accurate on a hot motor.


Just found this doing a quick search, and is close to my my legnthy procedure that I do when doing a compression test but I also take a video to record each compression stroke especially before I do a decarbon or piston soak so I can see if there is any improved benefits:
http://www.gregsengine.com/cylinder-compression-testing.html


Found this on another forum:

"The minimum compression in any one cylinder should not be less than 70 percent of the highest cylinder. No cylinder should read less than 690 kPa (100 psi). For example, if the highest pressure in any one cylinder is 1035 kPa (150 psi), the lowest allowable pressure for any other cylinder would be 725 kPa (105 psi). (1035 x 70% = 725) (150 x 70% = 105)."

Normal -- Compression builds up quickly and evenly to the specified compression for each cylinder.

Piston Rings Leaking -- Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression then builds up with the following strokes but does not reach normal. Compression improves considerably when you add oil.

Valves Leaking -- Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression usually does not build up on the following strokes. Compression does not improve much when you add oil.

If two adjacent cylinders have lower than normal compression and injecting oil into the cylinders does not increase the compression, the cause may be a head gasket leaking between the cylinders"


Sea Foam is well known, but does NOT really work. It only puts on a smoke show of the Pale Oil burning off making tons of smoke which is NOT carbon being broken down. It does NOT have a strong chemistry to break down and dissolve hard carbon.

I have been researching different chemistry's of different products for the past few years. Sea Foam is Pale Oil, Naptha, and ISA Isoproply Alcohol. Just do an internet search of the CAS# of any MSDS sheet. There are also many other products that have secret ingredients and are hard to figure out whats in them by looking at the MSDS.
http://www.mta.ca/administration/facilities/safety/msds/Grounds/Seafoam%20Auto%20Marine%20Engine%20treatment%20-%20SeaFoam%20Sales%20Co.%202010.pdf

Sea Foam is NOT what you want. But there is a huge debate that if its good or not and many different forums discuss it including other products used for cleaning carbon.

I have been trying to find some very good and strong products that are available in Europe for you to use because I knew your engine would need a ring soak, unfortunately, they don't export or sell these products in Europe due to "REACH Compliance Laws for Chemicals". One very strong and unique product that has been sold in the U.S. for 90 yrs is called "Berryman B-12 Chemtool". http://www.berrymanproducts.com/
I doubt you will be able to find it unless someone is buying it and shipping it over. Northern Tool on e-bay said they would then said they could not ship it to Finland.

I spoke to the chemist at Berryman and I'll give him a call again. I asked him if Berryman B-12 Chemtool was repackaged for the European market or sold under another name but he said no. He did tell me that a mix of 2 parts Tolulene, and 1 part Acetone or 1 part MEK ( Methyl ethyl ketone) should be easily found at paint stores or hardware / home improvement stores and would be a similar formulation to B-12 to dissolve carbon. Here's their MSDS:
http://www.berrymanproducts.com/products/gasoline/b-12-chemtool-carburetor-fuel-system-and-injector-cleaner/

After the treatment, I would then use a spray lubricant to re-coat the cylinders before turning motor over without the plugs in to get rid of any residual fluid.

I'll post more on the subject but don't waste your money on Sea Foam.

There are some chemicals that are made for marine/boat engines to decarbon and also for rings soaks and are generally much stronger chemistry's and don't have a lot of environmental restrictions. Do you have Yamaha, Mercury, Johnson-Evinrude marine/boat dealers in Finland? Possibly the big diesel marine engines have a strong ring/decarbon treatments. That's just a quick idea to think about, but I'll post more.

At the top of the list is a GM recommended product called "GM Piston and Ring Cleaner" #12378549 , that was used on late model Saturn's and Cadillac North Star Motors that had ring carbon problems. You don't need the special tool or kit. There is a lot of info on many forums that use this product successfully to disolve carboned ring packs due to excessive oil use:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/735102933

Personally, I would first start to use heated diesel fuel to do the ring soak which is cheap. My family had a company with a lot of fleet trucks and our old mechanics used to do that. I took it a step further and would pressurize the cylinder with compressed air by using the compression tester and removing the valve so air could come out of the end of the compression tester hose then hook up to shop air to pressurize the cylinder. This would force the diesel fuel into the ring pack then they would refill the cylinder with hot diesel fuel and do this a few times and drain the oil. I used to heat the diesel fuel in an electric coffee pot but would do this on a hot motor and would even let the mixture sit over night. This was an old procedure but there are now chemicals that specialize in dissolving carbon in different ways.

Stuck and Rusted Distributor Removal:

Last month, I saved a link to where someone was having trouble getting his distributor out! Lots of discussion. But now I can't find it. I even tried to do internet search to see which forum would've been hi-lited and can't find it. From what I remember, this person eventually had to remove the oil pan, and oil pump, and either used a piece of wood or a long brass drift or I think a piece of concrete metal re-bar (reinforcing bar) and ground a groove in it to interlock with the bottom of the distributor so it would not slip off and damage anything. Then he beat on it with a hammer but did finally get the distributor out.........

I wish I could find that exact thread but did find a few others that may help.

Here's a different technique. In the last post, the person heated the engine, then "super-cooled" the distributor housing base. That might work well if you can find the CRC or LocTite Freeze spray, or even computer cleaner CO2 compressed air and hold the can upside down which would spray out the liquid CO2! But, you will need to heat the can in hot water to get a lot of CO2 out before the can freezes up then you need to re-heat the can in hot water.

What is happening is the iron block is hot, and the aluminum distributor housing is quickly super-cooled with from the liquid spray and the aluminum distributor body shrinks. Hopefully that works for you.

#1. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/249060-1968-472-disty-completely-frozen-now.html

Check out post#9 here and the other link on making a very ingenious tool and drilling 2 holes the distributor and hopefully the distributor could still be used leaving 2 large vent holes in the bottom... There is another link to funny "Military Slang Abbreviations" they use: :rofl::lol:
#2. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/203707-removing-distributor-stuck-help.html

The thread above talks about CRC's Industrial Product Line: "Knocker Loose" that I never heard of.....somewhere there's a sexist joke in the choice of what the named the product! :rolleyes::
#3. http://crcindustries.com/ei/whats-new.aspx

Looks like they did a comparison to Kroil by Kano Labs which is supposed to be a good product:
#4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VM7NxPXRDY


#5. http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/classiccadillacchat/message/25108?threaded=1&p=3

#6. http://forums.500cid.com/showthread.php?t=1256

#7. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/231702-stuck-distributor-69-a.html

#8. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/100502-distributor-stuck.html :rofl::lol:




I have heard of the ATF or Marvel Mystery Oil with Acetone but never tried it.....

A little more debate here on ATF/Acetone but is said to need another carrier oil like kerosene and shows comparision to other penetrating oil brands:
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/penetrant-oil/29920/page1/


The Gun industry used it and was called "Ed's Red": http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=9

There are also products that freeze the bolt with a penetrating oil.
http://www.loctitefreezeandrelease.com/

CRC Freeze Off Super Penetrant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BaowQvL6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgUwiaRhFc


Or you may need to just heat the area up with a propane torch.


Regards,
Chris

cadchris
05-24-13, 12:04 AM
I did some editing above. Try your mixture of ATF and Acetone and keep soaking it for a week when driving it around. Maybe loosen the distributor hold down clamp. I'd also use a few cans of computer cleaner compressed air spray and spray it with the can up side down to get the liquid CO2. I'd finally use the Computer Spray liquid CO2 with the ATF/Acetone and lightly tap the distributor base with a large "drift rod" and try to use a pipe wrench or oil filter band wrench around the distributor but be careful as you will see many people have broken the distributor's housing in the above links.

Using the freeze technique and penetrate oil seems most logical.....unless you can find the CRC Freeze Off in Finland, I'd use a whole can on it so as not to risk breaking the distributor. I have a tech. contact at CRC who is a girl who is very knowledgable. I have a feeling that the "Freeze-Off" has the "Knocker Loose" integrated in that product. I'll e-mail her now to see what she says and suggests if you can find that product over there or some substitution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BaowQvL6c

I just saw this product by CRC called "Freeze Spray" that gets down to -60F. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=14086

Its just 134a Freon A/C Refrigerant, so emptying a whole can of 134a freon on the distributor base after spraying the distributor base with penetrant might break it loose!
http://www.crcindustries.com/faxdocs/msds/14086.pdf:yup:

Just put a A/C refrigerant hose on it and let it go for one heck of a loud and cloudy show but don't breath the stuff!:shhh:

You don't want to break the distributor especially with some of the great "distributor advance tuning info" I'm going to post to help your mileage and fuel efficiency!:thumbsup:

Regards,
Chris

The Ape Man
05-24-13, 08:34 PM
If the distributor is frozen like mine was it is going to die. It will not come out alive. I've been through this twice. Both were in internally clean engines.

It is not a sludge thing it's a dissimilar metal thing.

Penetrating oil can't hurt but it isn't going to do anything because the binding occurs far below the block's surface. There's a second round surface on the distributor shaft a few inches down.

My post was linked and describes the second frozen 500 distributor I removed. The first one was many years ago and it came out in many pieces.

Warming the engine may be the secret.

cadchris
05-25-13, 03:13 AM
Hey Ape Man,

Was there another thread here or maybe on another forum of a guy who used a piece of re-bar (I think) and cut a notch in it, pulled the pan or oil pump to get on the distributor shaft bottom and hammered it out without damage?

Here's some more "OUT THERE" ideas: :eyebrow:

Mount some sort of "Ultrasonic Transducer Vibrator" to the distributor housing with the right frequency to break up the corrosion...... See E-bay for those devices. "Ultrasonic Transducer Cleaner +1PC Power Driver Board"

I know there are scientific ways to reverse corrosion and rust through low current electrolysis but the item must be submerged in an electrolyte solution like Na2CO3 (Sodium Carbonate) or Washing Soda. Probably have to drain the oil, and fill the crank case up to the distributor housing with that solution to get it work! NO, DON'T DO IT.:bonkers:
Just a far reach of the imagination!

I wonder if it could still be done without an electrolytic solution (electrolyte) and through the block for the negative charge and distributor with a positive low current DC charge.......:hmm:

I do know of industrial applications of "Cathodic Protection" using a power supply that changes the amount of charge on a metal surface in order to stop re-bar in concrete structures from corroding, but I'd have to ask around if it would reverse corrosion. Would be cool to reproduce it on a smaller scale.

Anybody know any Chrome Plating shops or in the electroplating industrial industry who may known if corrosion could be broken down electrically without being submerged in a solution???????? I'll hit those guys up too just for the h'll of it to see what they have to say.There must be a scientific way to do this other than the "caveman way!"

I'm still thinking about if freezing that "sucker" (entire length of the distributor shaft) with a can of 134a Freon, or maybe liquid nitrogen, or even packing the distributor base with powdered dry ice -109F would work! 134a should do it by dropping the distributor body to at least -50F which should shrink that aluminum 1 or 2 "sub-microns" to break the corrosion bond! Who knows, may take until next summer to thaw out!
:rofl:

I don't know............! :bang2::duh:

I'd like to see him get that stupid "dip-sht-it-er" out in one piece so he can do the distributor tuning techique's I found for his mileage gains.

And yes.....I'm thinking on deleting all of my long posts and re-post them in separate threads with links back here to clean up my mess so this thread can be put back on track of the original subject !:bonkers:

I got a bunch of interesting stuff to throw out here..........

The Ape Man
05-25-13, 08:40 AM
I think the guy who removed the oil pump may have done that after destroying the distributor up top first. Not sure.

Electrolytic processes take time. Most folks with a broken distributor, a pile of parts and a car that does not run would not want to consider it. Many of these distributors need to come out due to a bad HEI pickup coil lead. A very interesting suggestion nontheless.

Next one if there ever is a next one I'll overheat the engine just a little and find a better way to cool the distributor.

cadchris
05-25-13, 01:49 PM
I'm thinking all of the above. Penetrant, super-cool the distributor, while heating the motor first or the opposite, but super-cooling the distributor should shock it and break the corrosion bond. Maybe do it with the engine running but with the hold down loosened slightly because I have visions of the distributor shooting out through the hood like a rocket and taking someone's eye out or head off!!!!!!!!!!!
:duck::histeric:Who knows....but stuff like this happens to me all the time....!

Even also using a large pipe wrench on the distributor housing like I read before, and use some regulated (not at full power) air hammer on the pipe wrench end for torsional/twisting vibrations or to send vibrations into the distributor shaft body with a flat chisel attachment on the lower base by the hold down to send lateral harmonic vibrations down the distributor shaft with a little tension back on forth on the on pipe wrench...may need 2 pipe wrenches for each direction of twisting back and forth.

Definitely will need a few people for each task! Guy spraying Freon, someone revving the motor, another twisting the pipe wrench back and forth, and another with the air hammer, and the 5th guy sitting there laughing at the orchestra symphony of this sheer circus act of idiocy!

But it might just work! I hope he takes a video of this and posts it if it works or not!:histeric: At least we will all know if it's a solution.

And if something breaks, there's going to be a lot of blame and finger pointing!:whistle:

Once again:

I wonder if the CRC Knocker Loose could wick down the entire length of the shaft. Many people like Aero Kroil but I'm surprised with this demo from CRC actually comparing their product with Aero Kroil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VM7NxPXRDY


CRC Freeze Off looks like it does wick up in this demo, so I wonder if over time, it could wick the entire length of the shaft to get to the corrosion on the lower ring like at :58-1:08 in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BaowQvL6c

Hopefully the acetone mix will break down the paper distributor base gasket so the other penetrant oils can wick down the shaft. Permatex used to make a potent gasket remover that dissolved paper gaskets, but any spray paint stripper with methylene chloride ect... will dissolve gaskets. Maybe that would work to get the paper gasket out of th way.

Where on the distributor is the corrosion happening? Is it on the 2nd ring below the hold down collar like you mentioned?
Not sure if the photo will be inserted so here is a link of a 472 Cadillac GM Distributor:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1123800&cc=1025367

110193

cadchris
05-25-13, 02:50 PM
Just got an e-mail from CRC. They only make the product for the U.S. but gave me the address of CRC Marketing for Europe so I sent an e-mail to see if the products can be purchased there or some similar product.

cadillac_al
05-25-13, 08:37 PM
I like the tips in the last few posts. Overheat the engine as much as possible, spray some super penetrating oil, pipe wrench with impact to send some vibrations through it, freeze the shaft, more pipe wrench, more vibration. It still may not work, but that sounds like the best plan of attack that our great minds can come up with. I never had success yet in removing a frozen distributor without ruining it. Good luck.

3dfx
05-26-13, 07:32 AM
We have some CRC sprays in Finland, and we have some freezing sprays too. I think I have some freezing spray in my garage. I think my freezing sprays are made by Certified Laboratories. Those had pretty big nozzle, so I can get lots of spray coming out from the bottle fast.

Guess I'll have to find a spare distributor before I start taking my distributor out. I have small liquid gas burner, would it be OK if I take my AC compressor out of the way and then start to heat the distributor base and engine block with this small burner, and then use freezing spray to freeze it?

I'll have to borrow or buy an air hammer somewhere.




Now my car runs pretty well only if I don't use secondary throttles. When I open my secondary throttles, huge pinging/knocking is coming out from my engine. With primaries open, my car doesn't ping at all.

I start looking for spare distributor in monday. I have some contacts who might know where to get a distributor. I think I'm not converting to HEI yet because point distributor are way too cheaper.

cadchris
05-26-13, 05:01 PM
Today, I got an e-mail from:

Nic Baetslé
Director of Sales European Distributors
CRC Industries Europe
Nic Baetslé (Nic.Baetsle@crcind.com)

He said "Yes" their products are available in Finland.....that's good. :2thumbs:

He said if you need to find these specific products, contact Mr.Kaunismaki (Hannu.Kaunismaeki@crcind.com). Reference my name and Nic and tell him how big this problem is and many people end up breaking the distributor. Tell him that the penetrant oil needs to get down the length of the distributor, and they might even give you FREE SAMPLES of different products to try! Or just ask them for some stuff to try so you can do a write up on the forum about it......they like free advertising. Sometimes the representatives give out free samples. I'll send them an e-mail to see if they'll give you some products.

Try the penetrant oil or ATF/Acetone mixture for a week and drive it around or whatever penetrant oil you have. Spray it constantly when the engine is cold, warm, at the stop light in traffic get out and spray it again!:rolleyes:

I would only warm the engine up for a while by running it. Don't use a propane/burner torch yet. Maybe pack ice around the upper portion of the distributor housing in a cloth bag with zip ties or a some kind of freeze pack tied to the distributor just too keep it cool and from getting heat soaked too much. This will allow the freeze spray to work to freeze the entire distributor quicker. I would then really consider blasting that distributor base/shaft area under the distributor with a can of 134a Freon to quickly drop the core temperature of the distributor housing shaft and keep spraying the penetrant oil also while doing this.

You want to shock cool/freeze that aluminum shaft fast and the aluminum should quickly conduct the freezing action down the length of the shaft and maybe carry the penetrant oil down also, if it doesn't freeze and thicken the penetrant oil first. Hopefully this will shrink that aluminum slightly since aluminum does have a high thermal expansion rate over iron....see chart:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

Maybe try the penetrant oil for a week driving around, then on a cool engine, freeze the distributor first without heating anything...along with a pipe wrench attached to the distributor body to gently twist the distributor back and forth....you might get lucky.

Or do all of the above from what I posted previously and have a little fun.

Maybe a smaller version of an electric hammer like this one. You can usually rent these:
http://www.directindustry.com/prod/hitachi-koki/electric-chipping-hammers-24059-1119950.html

A cheep Chinese junk one would be better and less powerful. All you want is shock/vibration and not cut/crack that distributor in 2 pieces!

I'm also thinking which one would give more of a solid harmonic shock vibration. I think electric would vs. air hammer.....not sure. You would have to try it on a piece of solid metal or somewhere on the engine block and feel the metal with your hand for sharp harmonic vibrations. Would be interesting if you could fabricate something to attach a cheep electric impact wrench that has low toque output and attach it to that distributor housing to also send a twisting shock vibration down the shaft. They even make 12v car impact wrenches. I just don't know how to make a solid attachment to the body of the distributor unless you made that tool that one person made in the link I posted above. But that could also create a stress crack in the bottom of the housing using an electric or air impact wrench..a lot to think about!:hmm:

I will also be speaking to a chemist from Permatex next week and meeting with the local Representative. I got "rust problems too"!
I have body rust since my poor Fleetwood sat by the ocean for a few years. I used their Rust Dissolver Navel Jelly that made a mess because I accidentally let it dry, now we have to figure out how to break down the dried "Jelly" substance chemically.

I'm going to ask the chemist about your problem, and I'm wondering if some form of acid could dissolve the rust/corrosion and wick down the shaft. I don't think HCL or (Muriatic Acid) would be right because it would leave behind chlorine ions which would get into the iron and cause more rust. Not phosphoric because it would leave a coating of ferric phosphate, FePO4......HF and Nitric Acids are pretty dangerous but should work, Sulfuric Acid is battery acid...I wonder if that could break the bond between the iron block and aluminum.........I'm just thinking here.......:bigroll:

The penetrants, including DEEP-Freezing are indeed safer along with some form shock treatment. :shocked: I could use a little of that!

As far as the pinging. We discussed that somewhere here! Lean condition vacuum leak sucking air past the carb. or carb shafts worn or other carb problems, lean secondary circuit/ jets, timing too advanced/vacuum advance, combustion chamber carbon, hot oil getting past the rings/valves "ring pack seized up" and needs soaked. Coolant Temps too high and stuck thermostat, radiator clogged and internal flow problems, clogged cooling jackets which would require a hot acid or inorganic acid flush.

What AC Delco Spark Plug# number did you install?

Make sure you have a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and put on a new 16lb radiator cap. NOT the one with a red lever pressure relief. A STANT Engineer told me they are not as accurate as a regular cap and have a wider range and fail easily. You want to make sure you have pressure to raise the boiling point of your coolant so not to boil it in the cooling jacket which will cause detonation and hot spots in the cylinder.

Do you have any organic scale or rust in the cooling system? The cooling system was also probably neglected by the former owner. I had to do a Google of this threads title to quickly find where I posted about EVANS COOLANT which you could benefit from running a lot of ignition advance and lean fuel curve but the cooling jackets need to be able to transfer the heat out of the heads for the EVANS to work. I found the old archived webpages with years of great articles on EVANS. I also talked to them and they have a European site: http://evanscoolants.co.uk/

But even their tech. guy agrees with me that the old site and tech info is much better than the new consumer friendly info. I will post all those links soon back in post #58.


Anyway, I know a lot about how to treat each type of cooling system contamination with industrial products. I'm actually going to use a totally safe product that is an organic calcium scale remover for a 28 story hi-rise commercial building's water cooling tower scale problem because the water cooled a/c condensors have internal scale buildup creating a barrier and stopping liquid thermal heat transfer to cool the hot high side refrigerant tube. A BIG PROBLEM with "calcium based scale" which has built up on the pipes and causing slow transfer of heat out of the water just like a cars cooling jacket.

This is what were going to use which is a very unique non-acid that is only made by this company for the U.S market and safe for copper condensor tubes and only calcium organic scale and not rust...I wonder if this product or something similar is available in Finland!:
http://www.nucalgon.com/products/water-treatment/scale-removal/eco-lyme#prettyPhoto/0/

Or here's a very good older automotive aggressive product here in the U.S.::: "Permatex® Heavy Duty Radiator Cleaner" which is Hydrochloric Acid based:
http://www.permatex.com/products/product-categories/cleaners/speciality-cleaners/permatex--heavy-duty-radiator-cleaner-detail

If you use this, it will most likely uncover leaks. Bypass the heater core when running this stuff, then if you leak somewhere else in the system, use a "Sodium Silicate" based product that creates a very strong seal like:
http://www.irontite.com/

http://www.crcindustries.com/files/Nanotechnology%20Blockseal%20Tutorial.pdf

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=22005

These are permanant sealers that requires all anti freeze to be flushed out, circulate the sealer, then drain and allow to dry. Or there is always the powered GM/Bars Leak dry tabs for small radiator leaks.

GM's old aggressive discontinued radiator flush/procedure was a 2 stage powered product in a can made for GM by Prestone #AS100. It was used many years ago for rusted cooling systems and then for the Dex-Cool sludge problems... It is a 2 part powder. 1 side of the can had Oxalic Acid (Wood Bleach) found at Hardware Store, and the other side of the can had Sodium Carbonate neutralizer (Arm & Hammer Washing Soda) found at Grocery Story by the laundry detergents. Its a powerful flush vs. what is on the market at the Autoparts stores:

If you do a search on the internet, there are many forums that talk about these old products and GM's Procedure. Here is only a few of many forums that talk about it. The Corvette guys also have a lot of discussion about it

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f107/dex-cool-sludge-rip-radiator-green-vs-orange-413018/

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c3-technical-performance/24337-cooling-system-question.html

Do a search on "GM bulletin tsb 99-06-02-012D"

Tech Procedure:
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f31/dexcool-2659/

Shorter Version of TSB:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?122206-Oxalic-acid-flush-created-something-when-neutralized..


This is why I always advocte to get a motor totally cleaned out before any performance mods......


I know.....another long post.
:preach::preach::helpless:

cadchris
05-26-13, 09:12 PM
We have this stuff here in the U.S. and is availbable in Europe. You probably heard about it. "WURTH Rost Off ICE" Many of the Euro Garages here use these products.

http://www.wurth.co.uk/data/productdocuments/070186.pdf

http://www.wurth.co.uk/technical-chemicals1/lubricants-and-rust-removers/rust-removers/rost-off-ice-400ml

WURTH USA:
http://www.wurthusa.com/web/en/website/produkte_1/chemicals/lubricants/lubricants.php

230 pg. Catalog of specialty chemicals: :bonkers: Some I recognize from other mfgs. like Stabilant 22 electrical conductive contact liquid:
http://www.wurthusa.com/web/media/downloads/pdf/pdf_catalog/04_Chemicals_Nov2012.pdf

You will need a few cans of these types of products in order to super chill the entire length of the distributor shaft which is why I said to use 134a Refrigerant/Freon first with some other penetrating oil in addition to using some of these penetrating oil products . :2thumbs:

cadchris
05-27-13, 01:29 AM
3dfx.

Hold off heating or freezing anything!

Especially DO NOT do both at the same time!

I've been thinking about this more especially the thermal expansion rates of each metal and the possibility of them not being completely isolated from each other from a corrosional bond so its really bothering me now......
:ohnoes:


I have posted this info on an Engineering Metallurgy Forum and are discussing it with a metallurgist and will post the info and link soon.

Regards,
Chris

outsider
05-27-13, 08:00 AM
My distributor was stuck on my 69's 472. I sprayed it with PB Blaster every day (basically 2 whole cans) and then tapped on it with a chunk of wood and a hammer. After a long while it finally started to move a little. I then put a large adjustable wrench on the distributor (there's a square part on the head where the cap clips on to.) and was able to turn it. It's still really tight but it's loosening up!

Good luck.

cadchris
05-27-13, 11:32 AM
Outsider,

Good to hear you had success,

Where on the your distributor did you see the problem was? Under the hold down flange of the distributor body, or boar ring under the hold down collar or on the middle bore collar of the distributor or the last bore collar down by the gear?

As seen here: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1123800&cc=1025367

Is this what a 472/500 Distributor looks like?

Was is it corrosion, galling, or hardened carbon or all 3 causing the problem on yours?

Thanks,
Chris

3dfx
05-27-13, 05:06 PM
We have this stuff here in the U.S. and is availbable in Europe. You probably heard about it. "WURTH Rost Off ICE" Many of the Euro Garages here use these products.
I have seen those bottles in many stores, even in small supermarkets. I should try one of those.


He said if you need to find these specific products, contact Mr.Kaunismaki (Hannu.Kaunismaeki@crcind.com). Reference my name and Nic and tell him how big this problem is and many people end up breaking the distributor. Tell him that the penetrant oil needs to get down the length of the distributor, and they might even give you FREE SAMPLES of different products to try! Or just ask them for some stuff to try so you can do a write up on the forum about it......they like free advertising. Sometimes the representatives give out free samples. I'll send them an e-mail to see if they'll give you some products.

I should contact Mr. Kaunismäki some day and tell him about distributors jamming problems and how great it would be for old car hobbyists if we can find some solution for these jamming distributors.

Well, this distributor problem can wait a little, I have some problems with my propeller shaft. Universal joints in front started to make some bigger "clap clap clap" noise than before and both of my front universal joints were bad. I went under my car and started to push and pull that u-joint, it moved many millimeters up and down, making this "clap clap clap" noise. I have new u-joints waiting for installation and hopefully I can instal them tomorrow. If I can't install them tomorrow, I will instal them in the weekend. One of my friends has gas welding systems and with those I can get some heat to bolts. They were pretty stuck when I dried to open them today. Chaging u-joints is urgent. It can ruin my tranny, driveshaft and rear axle if that u-joint gets destroyed.


Coolant Temps too high and stuck thermostat, radiator clogged and internal flow problems, clogged cooling jackets which would require a hot acid or inorganic acid flush. This car has one big con. It doesn't have a engine temperature meter. With that I could easily see if my thermostat is stuck. Maybe I should change it too and install a thermometer.


What AC Delco Spark Plug# number did you install?I think they were basic black AC-Delco plugs. There was 44 or 45 in somewhere of its model number.


Make sure you have a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and put on a new 16lb radiator cap.I bought a new cap in last summer. Old one leaked. Only problem is that those radiator caps in these cars are inch system sizes and all normal cars here have metric system sized radiator caps. So, the range of inch-sized radiator caps is poor in here. In last summer I would prefered too an radiator cap without pressure release lever. I couldn't find one easily, so I bought one with a lever. Im not sure if it's 16lb, I'll have to check that out too.


Do you have any organic scale or rust in the cooling system? The cooling system was also probably neglected by the former owner. There was lots of rust in system. I emptied the system in last summer and flushed it many times with fresh water. It helped and now my coolant is pretty clean. I have some calcium in my system and It should be flushed with some chemicals. I have not dared to put any chemical in there because those often make radiator leak. Maybe I'll try those chemicals in fall, when I have whole winter time to look for new radiator if my old one starts to leak dramatically.


o you have any organic scale or rust in the cooling system? The cooling system was also probably neglected by the former owner. I had to do a Google of this threads title to quickly find where I posted about EVANS COOLANT which you could benefit from running a lot of ignition advance and lean fuel curve but the cooling jackets need to be able to transfer the heat out of the heads for the EVANS to work. I found the old archived webpages with years of great articles on EVANS. I also talked to them and they have a European site: http://evanscoolants.co.uk/Im very interested about this coolant. They say in their websites that It will work in very low temperatures. This is extremely important. I don't want to wake up and see my cars engine block cracked because my coolant is frozen solid. I have to test myself about that low temperature protection. I will buy some Evans coolant and put it into can and take it into freezer and see what happened.

I found this kind of product from Sweden: http://www.ec1.se/index2.html I think this is some kind of waterless coolant too? They got nice websites but there is no exact info about the product.


This is why I always advocte to get a motor totally cleaned out before any performance mods......I agree. I think its waste of time and money to mod engines in bad condition.

cadchris
05-28-13, 03:06 AM
I also meant to say in order for the best fuel efficiency, the engine needs cleaned out too and tuned as best as possible before we start trying to make gains in fuel efficiency!
:bouncy:

I did ask Mr. Kaunismäki to kindly assist in this problem, but he stated it would be easier for you to find the products yourself, so it looks like CRC's marketing is not very consumer oriented in Europe nor do they need the exposure on this topic. I'm dissapointed that they wouldn't send you samples.

Time for some of those "Finish Bad Words" to call him!!!!!
:rant2:

I deal with factory representatives all the time in the U.S. and they always give away free stuff for me and others to try.

Here's what he sent me by e-mail:

This is the wrong product.......it's for freezing electronics semi conductors for diagnostics. He must not have understood or bothered to read my e-mail regarding the issue:
http://www.motonet.fi/web/guest/muut#query=crc%20kylm%C3%A4spray

And to use this product if you get the distributor out to prevent the corrosion again. :helpless: I wished he would've helped more:
http://www.motonet.fi/web/guest/muut#query=crc%20metallivapaa-keraaminen

This is the European product I found on my own:
http://www.crcind.com/wwwcrc/tds/CRC_GREEN-ROST_FLASH_IND-25TDS.PDF

You will just need a lot of it which is why I recommend using a can of 134a Freon along with a separate penetrating oil...........


I think you will need a lot of freeze spray to "cold soak/freeze soak" it so the entire length of the distributor's housing's core temperature drops to contract the aluminum in the block bore.

For now, wait until I get my questions answered by the Metallurgist Forum were I posted a few concerns with sub-freezing and heating of alloys.


By the way; -50C. in Finland. Are you kidding me?!!!! That's -58F! You should've tried to remove that distributor during the winter! The iron and aluminum would've been equally deep freezed and the distributor would have probably popped out like a Popsicle! Which is a frozen treat!:smilewide:

But then you would've lost the use of your hands for about a year!

Anyway, try the Freeze Spray on the U-bolts!

#1. Let us know exactly what plugs you used. Did all of your detonation/pre-ignition start after installing those plugs? When did this engine start pinging...recently, or did it ping last year when opening your secondaries?

The 69' 472 calls for a AC Delco R44XLS which I'm surprised is an "extra long reach and extended tip" which is good to get that plug deep into the cylinder. See Delco CODE I.D. CHART:
http://www.gonzomotorsports.com/?page_id=528

The do make a hotter plug 45, 46. The colder plugs are 44, 43, 42.

Were the old plugs oil fouled? What was the plug numbers that you removed?


Good video from NGK. You want colder plugs to run lean mixtures to prevent detonation and pinging. The larger ceramic shell transfers more heat into the cooling jacket that may be clogged and coated on your engine preventing heat transfer out of the combustion chamber and into the head.

But if you have oil entering the combustion chamber or rich mixture, the plug will foul and not self clean if too cold which is why then you would use a hotter plug but then the plug end will run hotter and could cause pinging and not pull heat out of the combustion chamber. 45 is the middle heat range for AC Delco Plugs.
http://ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/p2.asp?mode=nml

#2. Are you using a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol coolant or have you checked the concentration and specific gravity with coolant hydrometer?

I'm not sure how sensitive these big blocks are to boiling coolant in the heads cooling jackets to cause detonation which is why the correct cooling mix and pressure cap to raise the boiling point of the coolant is important, but detonation problem is most likely fuel, ignition, or carbon related or a combination of many problems.

#3. Are you using organic acid technology (OAT) Dex-Cool or hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT) formulation like ZEREX anti-freeze coolant in your cooling system?

Since you had so much contamination in the system, the cooling jackets certainly have a thick layer of rust/calcium build up which prevents heat transfer out of the head causing high combustion chamber temps., and a coolant gauge will not indicate this, but will show if the radiator or thermostat is not working correctly.....that's only 1 scenario.

Yes, I've aggressively cleaned systems and always anticipated leaks, but I've always got these leaks sealed with the better multiple step cooling system sealants. I accidentally poked a huge hole in one of the radiator's core tubes removing my radiator fan on my Fleetwood. That was a huge hole/slice and too big for any cooling system sealants. So I bought the correct 2 part high temp. / high pressure epoxy I could find at the hardware store.

Fixed it with no problem, and I ran every caustic cleaner through that radiator to clean my cooling system out really good,( using Muratic Acid HCL, Oxalic Acid, Sodium Carbonate, Baking Soda, TIDE Powdered Laundry Det., Cascade Dishwashing Machine Detergent.......can't remember what else I threw in there) then I drove on that radiator for a few months before changing to a better more efficient aluminum core radiator and the 2 part epoxy held with no problem. I can take a picture if any want to see it, MODINE Radiators used to be made really good! Only in the USA.

#4. Does the 472/500 have block drains at the bottom like Chevy engines do? Yes they do..just found some info:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/274288-hole-block.html

YES... they do have coolant drain plugs as seen in these links. Most of the time, like on my 91 Fleetwood 305, I removed the coolant drain plugs and nothing came out. I stuck a screwdriver into the hole and pushed it around and broke up all the sediment then all kinds of rusty junk came out. I flushed the system while running and reving the motor with these plugs out and draining into a white plastic tub/ bucket until all the water was clear.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/274288-hole-block.html


Definitely want to remove those drain plugs if the Caddy's have them when flushing and running the engine.....you would be surprised at how much sediment gets trapped in the lower block and can't get flushed out any other way...sometimes pressure can do it...........:thumbsup:

I reviewed the "EC1 Coolant" site you posted........this is really not something you want to try.:helpless::cop::thumbdown: The site is does not have tech info, nor any history from what I could tell. Looks very suspicious to me.

The new Evans U.S. site, and U.K. site is too fancy. I will post the old Evans site with 18 yrs of technical industry articles and test data. Very impressive info. and even their Tech guys said the same but have no say in the website design...... we had a very long conversation about it. For years, Evans was only marketed to industrial applications and for race cars, but over the past few years, the company has gone though major changes and is now concentrating on the consumer market which is why their website is now more consumer oriented marketing..................:yup:

Here's some history about Evans Cooling: it was developed by Jack Evans who not only designed this specialized coolant but was an inventor and consultant to the U.S. factory automotive industry. Around the late 80's, he designed and patented a reverse cooling system and was hired by GM to solve some cooling problems. There is a very detailed chain of events that ocurred so I may have some of the history mixed up.

Anyway, GM payed him a small fee to solve their problem with his patented design. Then one night, GM engineers broke into his development area, and took apart one of his test cars, reversed engineered the system, and stole his idea and put it into production on the LT1 Corvette Engine!

Well, Jack Evans sued GM in 2 lawsuits for close to $1 Billion based on the production of LT1's and his loss in royalties. I read the legal intricacies of the lawsuit and it was amazing. He lost in Federal Court, then re-sued in State court where GM knew they were going to lose the case and gave up. They settled out of court after a 10 yrs of litigation. I heard Jack Evan's really made out. Prabably $300 million. At this time, members of the DuPont family were a minority shareholder in Evans Corp, and they were the one's behind the lawsuit to help Jack Evans keep his lawsuit going for years. Jack retired, and now DuPont is the majority shareholder of Evans Coolant. The company and product have a very good reputation. But they changed the old web-site, and Jack Evan's original open letter to the public outlining his story about what GM did has been taken off the site part of the settlement, but I think I found the old link.

I sent an e-mail to the main Technical person I've talked to many times at Evans about what temps. NPG Coolant will freeze at. From what I remember him saying, Evans NPG ( Non-Aqueous Polypropylene Glycol) does not freeze but will get very thick. If it does manage to freeze, it will not expand like water and will not crack a block, nor does it expand or build pressure if the engine overheats.
http://www.evanscooling.com/products/coolants/

See 3:25 in this video:
http://evanscoolants.co.uk/news/wheeler-dealers-%E2%80%93-watch-now!--edd-china%E2%80%99s-triumph-tr6-conversion-./43

3dfx
06-02-13, 12:36 PM
I did ask Mr. Kaunismäki to kindly assist in this problem, but he stated it would be easier for you to find the products yourself, so it looks like CRC's marketing is not very consumer oriented in Europe nor do they need the exposure on this topic. I'm dissapointed that they wouldn't send you samples. I expected something like this.

You get nothing for free in here and asking things for free is strange here. Here nobody does it. If you want something, you'll have to pay for it.

I think marketing in Finland is generally speaking different and less aggressive what you have in US. Good brands doesn't need advertising. Everyone (who would ever use CRC), know the CRC brand and they buy CRC products. I think marketing in US is trying to get more customers all the time. In Finland marketing is trying to keep the old customers happy. I have never been in advertising business, but thats how I think the things are..One big problem in Finnish marketing is that buyer often know more about different products than salesman...


You will just need a lot of it which is why I recommend using a can of 134a Freon along with a separate penetrating oil...........
I can't buy a can of freon legally in here. First you have to have a firm to buy those. Second you'll need some kind of license to use that stuff (this wouldn't be a problem, no one comes to my home to see if I have license). This is one idiotic law which came in recent years........:mad: It just sucks....And If I get caught, I can get max two year prison sentence....

I could risk and buy that freon from some else EU country, and hope that customs don't take my freon (If they do, I have to pay some customs payments and maybe some fine) . Other way to get freon is to get someone bring it to me from Russia. Some people bring R-12 freon from there because you can't buy it in Finland.

Would CO2 welding gas work good?


By the way; -50C. in Finland. Are you kidding me?!!!! That's -58FNo no no:xsmile:

We have max -35C in Finland. I would like to be sure about that coolants freezing point. I remember some waterless (or some special coolant, i don't remember) coolant went solid when it was tested few years ago.


Were the old plugs oil fouled? What was the plug numbers that you removed?
Old plugs looked suprisingly good. They were pretty clean. Only one was in carbon, and it was that cylinders plug which got highest result in pressure test. Now my car is on my friends place, and the old plugs are in the car. I'll check that number as soon as I can and write them here.


Did all of your detonation/pre-ignition start after installing those plugs? When did this engine start pinging...recently, or did it ping last year when opening your secondaries?Engine did ping a little in last year with open secondaries. I changed my points (which was stupid thing to do, because distributor is jammed and I coulnd't adjust my ignition) and plugs at the same time.


#2. Are you using a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol coolant or have you checked the concentration and specific gravity with coolant hydrometer? Yes, I am using 50/50 mix. I checked my coolants freeze protection with optical tester and it showed me I have 50/50 mix.


Are you using organic acid technology (OAT) Dex-Cool or hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT) formulation like ZEREX anti-freeze coolant in your cooling system?I have no idea. Which one I should use? We have dexcool in Finland, but Im not sure about ZEREX.

I checked my antifreeze and It was very rusty. I may consider some chamical cleaning if I dont need to re-ring my engine. I piston ring soak doesn't help, and the pass leaks stay high, Ill have to re-ring my engine and then I don't see any reason why I should clean my cooling system now.



I was visiting few stores where I could get piston ring soaking chemicals. Brand I saw were STP, Forte, CRC and LiquiMoly. They all had some kind of valve cleaning chemicals but none of them had ring soaking chamicals. Does valve cleaning do the thing?

Forte chemicals are expensive professional chemicals. They are very high strong and quality chemicals. All the other were bit cheaper than Forte. What chemicals you have used when soaking rings?

cadchris
06-02-13, 04:37 PM
3dfx,

What "coolant type" did you use?

When you bought the car, what color was the fluid? Orange, Green, yellow, or pink?

Or was there only a rust color?

Did you use Dex-Cool?

You did say your coolant was rusty color.... Does your coolant look rusty, sludgy and muddy like seen in the photos below ?

Or is the water rusty colored with "hard flakes" of actual "iron oxide" (rust)?

112882

112890

Or.....does it look like this: Cooling System Organic Calcium Scale:

112898

3dfx
06-03-13, 04:59 AM
What "coolant type" did you use? Basically we use two kind of anti-freeze. First one is the green coloured and second one is red coloured. Green one is more traditional and used in older cars and red one in newer cars, often in VAG cars. Red one does not have any silicate, phosphate or nitrite compounds. Those two coolants cannot be mixed or something bad will happen (no one knows what but there are lots of rumours what will happen if those are mixed).

Of course there is GM Dex-Cool which should be compatible with every coolant and yellow one for Citroen, Renault and Peugeot. There was a blue coolant too, but I dont remember which cars used it.

So, im not sure what ingredients my coolant have..


When you bought the car, what color was the fluid? Orange, Green, yellow, or pink? Green


Or was there only a rust color? It was pretty much rust coloured but I'm pretty sure coolants original colour had been green.


Did you use Dex-Cool?Nope


You did say your coolant was rusty color.... Does your coolant look rusty, sludgy and muddy like seen in the photos below ?It wasn't that muddy like in first photo. There wasn't lots of "mud" in radiator. A little only. I flushed it several times with water and lots of "mud" came out.


Or is the water rusty colored with "hard flakes" of actual "iron oxide" (rust)? Yes there is very small flakes of rust in my radiator and liquid is all rusty coloured.


Or.....does it look like this: Cooling System Organic Calcium Scale:Yes. I have lots of that organic calsium scale in my radiator. It looked just like that.

3dfx
06-05-13, 03:46 PM
Today I called one local spare part salesman, who has lots of knowledge and contacs about USA cars, especially GM cars. He said that he could get "new" factory repaired point breaker distributor for me for 120 euros. He could get that for me in three to five days.

So, I have now new distributor avainable if my distributor breaks down when trying to move it.

Today I took my AC-compressor (which has an bearing failure) away from my way. I think I start working on my distributor on the next weekend.

I noticed some king of vacuum distributor in front of the driver side cylinder head. Should that be used for vacuum advance?

Now my vacuum advance goes from carburetor (in front of the drivers side of the carburetor) to distributor. Should my engine take it's vacuum advance from there or from intake manifold?

cadchris
06-05-13, 10:36 PM
O.k. Lots of questions to get back to you about.

But are you talking about this "thermal vacuum switch" in the following link?
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/96263-1969-deville-thermal-vacuum-switch.html

The link below also talks about the thermal switch but the link will not post correctly. This Forum will not allow any links from that website to be posted. When they get inserted, it turns them into a "cadillacowners" web address that will not work. The forum owners must not like each other!

Just close the spaces in the address below:
www . cadillac power . com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79618


Don't throw away that thermal switch. I have some idea's for it to be used for something else that I'll let you know about when I ask someone about another idea!!!!!!
:hmm:

Maybe others can let you know how to hook up the distributor because I've read on many forums to use direct intake vacuum but that was tuning with an HEI.....others have said to use ported carb. vacuum. I really think it will depend on how you tune your advance curve which will make a big difference. For now, not sure, but temperature has a lot to do with it if the car is operate in cold conditions and how the advance works when the engine started in cold outside temps.
I also can't find an engine/distributor vacuum diagram on the internet. Anyone have one to post?
:hmm::hmm:

I may as well post some distributor advance performance tuning info. I've found from 2 very good sources. I'll post it later when I find it because it will basically eliminate that switch. I don't think it would be needed unless some others have ideas they'd like to post about it.
:hmm::hmm::hmm:

Regards,
Chris
:suspense:

cadchris
06-06-13, 02:18 AM
O.K.......here's a new thread I started on tuning the distributor vacuum advance for fuel efficiency and power. I decided to post a separate thread and post it back here to keep this thread clean and because it would get more attention in a separate thread than posting here and should be helpful with the original subject of this thread. Here's the link:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/302929-distributor-advance-tuning-techniques-fuel-economy.html#post3457345

"3dfx", this should motivate you to get that stuck distributor out of that engine so you can tune the vacuum advance correctly for fuel efficiency ! :thumbsup:

I think that distributor is too expensive. "Rock Auto" is much cheaper, but I wonder how much it would cost to get it to Finland. Make sure your not getting a Chinese distributor. I've read so much about many bad HEI distributors being made in China, but also a few good ones. By the way, MSD, Accel, ProForm are all made in China, but made to higher specifications!

Use this link for RockAuto because this "version" of their catalog is easier to look up items as compared to their regular "drop-down" catalog: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/catalog.php

Not sure if this link will work to the distributors:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1025356,parttype,7108

A1 Cardone is only $42 / 32.00 Euros. It can't be that much to ship it to Finland.....can it?


Anyway, I will post more final thoughts and what the Engineers had to say on freeing that stuck distributor.......which is really not too different from my original ideas.

Regards,
Chris

cadchris
06-07-13, 03:01 AM
3dfx,

I'm going to address your distributor removal again and then tomorrow, I'll post about your cooling system problems and info I found.

Since you can not get R134a Refrigerant which will only cool to -15 F., liquid CO2 will allow you to make powder Dry Ice which is -109 F. and is even better to super-cool your distributor in order to shrink the aluminum distributor shaft since aluminum has more thermodynamics and will conduct the freezing temps faster than the iron block and will contract/shrink more than iron and will hopefully break the galvanic corrosion bond. My original concern was making the aluminum brittle, like how Liquid Nitrogen would do at -300F. But -109 F. should be fine. It will also help draw the fluid down the shaft as will heat cycling also if you decide to use heat.

To answer your question about CO2 Welding Gas. Yes, you can use CO2 Welding Gas, but it must not be mixed with any other gas like Argon which is commonly mixed together for welding. If you can get regular CO2 Gas, you must turn the tank upside down to dispense the liquid CO2 to make Powder Dry Ice. Or get a CO2 tank that has an internal "siphon dip tube" and when the valve is opened, it will release liquid CO2 when the tank is standing upright.

The next best alternative to make powered dry ice easily is with a CO2 Fire Extinguisher. Make sure it is ONLY a CO2 Fire Extinguisher and does not contain any other chemical.

Here are many links on making Dry Ice from CO2:

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-make-dry-ice

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Dry-Ice

http://gizmodo.com/5982730/how-to-make-dry-ice-at-home

Dry Ice Block Maker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfUS7XvshIM

How to make Dry Ice Search:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+make+dry+ice+with+co2&oq=how+to+make+dry+ice+with+co2&gs_l=youtube.12..0.30230.30885.0.32209.3.3.0.0.0.0 .115.316.1j2.3.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.GNK86Sgg IEY


The best way to collect the Dry Ice efficiently is to make a bag out Denim Blue Jeans. Cut 1 leg of old blue jeans and either sew one end or twist the leg closed on one end in order to catch the dry ice. These devices are made from Denim Blue Jean Material:
http://www.coleparmer.co.uk/1/1/47798-junior-dry-ice-maker.html

http://www.thomassci.com/Equipment/Ice-Makers/_/REDI-ICE-DRY-ICE-MAKER/

http://metlabsupply.com/supplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=54&products_id=9&zenid=361f7267755deb3b94da76a69655c2bc

http://www.amazon.com/Bel-Art-Scienceware-388860001-Frigimat-Replacement/dp/B002VBW93M/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1369790411&sr=1-1

Review that says to make the same device out of old Blue Jeans....good advice:
http://www.amazon.com/Bel-Art-Scienceware-388860002-European-Frigimat/product-reviews/B002VBW946/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


I really don't think the freeze sprays will get the distributor housing cold enough, but you could always try. I would also make some sort of a "temporary" well or reservoir around the distibutor base out of a clay, putty, or 2 part epoxy stick like these products that you could find at a hardware store or auto parts store:

http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-highheat/

https://www.google.com/search?q=EPOXY+STICK&rlz=1C1LAVF_enUS383US415&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=LXmxUcyGIfDeyAGi3IDwAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=673

Clean the block area around the distributor with brake cleaner to get the material to stick to the iron block. Form it around the distributor but place it on the iron engine block only, and form it up to make a dam so it can hold fluid like the penetrating oil or the ATF/Acetone mix. Drive the car around for a week and keep filling the reservoir to keep penetrating oil around the distributor base so it can soak under the distributor to get to the corrosion. Hopefully the heat/cold cycles will free up the distributor. If not, then use the dry ice power to pack around ONLY the distributor to quickly super-cool the aluminum and shrink it away from the iron.

Here is the Engineering/Metalurgy link where I asked for advice. This turned out to be an interesting discussion.
I need to follow up with those guys, and will also keep posting some other ideas for their advice. Another idea I had was to soak the distributor base with "inhibited HCL solution" which would selectively dissolve the corrosion and not affect the metals. Mostly the Metalurgist all confirmed many of my ideas and concerns that I posted previously here in post #112, and #121:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=345616

By the way, make your Dry Ice outdoors or with a lot of ventilation. CO2 will displace oxygen and you could pass out if making it in a small area especially if you have pets because CO2 is heavier than air and will collect on the floor.


Take your time, and be very patient. Try to soak the distributor base first and keep fluid around that distributor base bore hole.

Good Luck, :thumbsup:

Chris

cadchris
06-07-13, 01:27 PM
Just want to insert (Outsiders) old thread here for reference on the subject about the stuck distributor on his 69' in case others post there:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1984-deville-fleetwood-1985/231702-stuck-distributor-69-a.html#post3467633

cadillac_al
06-07-13, 06:58 PM
Have we had success getting the distributor out yet?

3dfx
06-13-13, 03:59 PM
Today I got my distributor to rotate. After two cans of freezing spray, and lots of penetration oil, my distributor started to rotate. I used big pipe wrench to rotate it. I rotated it four times around and sprayed penetration oil into it. Still, it won't rotate without that big pipe wrench. So, I have breaked the corrosion bond between engine block and distributor. We sprayed from three freezing spray cans simultaneously with my friend.

I still couldn't get that distributor out of there. I'm now making a special tool for giving vertical impact for my distributor. I will make a slide hammer and some kind of tool to put under the distributor. With that I can give some mild impacts at the same time when my friend rotates distributor. I'll make that tool in the weekend if my flu won't get worse.


To answer your question about CO2 Welding Gas. Yes, you can use CO2 Welding Gas, but it must not be mixed with any other gas like Argon which is commonly mixed together for welding. If you can get regular CO2 Gas, you must turn the tank upside down to dispense the liquid CO2 to make Powder Dry Ice. Or get a CO2 tank that has an internal "siphon dip tube" and when the valve is opened, it will release liquid CO2 when the tank is standing upright.

The next best alternative to make powered dry ice easily is with a CO2 Fire Extinguisher. Make sure it is ONLY a CO2 Fire Extinguisher and does not contain any other chemical.

Here are many links on making Dry Ice from CO2:My welding gas is just CO2 and nothing else. I'll have to try to make some dry ice. Dry ice could be very usefull in everywhere.

outsider
06-13-13, 04:23 PM
Good to hear! I also have yet to get my distributor to come out. It turns if I use my big adjustable wrench on it but can't turn by hand.

Please share if that special tool you're planning to make works out! I also considered making something like that but haven't had time.

cadchris
06-14-13, 08:24 PM
Hey 3dfx.

Consider this also. In some industry that uses scientific industrial tools, I know I've seen some kind of tool that has a probe that gives off ultra-sonic high/low frequency harmonic pulsations when the tool touches the object. I found a few different very high tech tools, but not specifically what I was looking for.

However, I just remembered this tool and it should do the same and should work. You may know someone who has one these tools below, or can rent it at a tool supply store.

Its called a "Concrete Vibrator". It gives off about 12,000 high frequency vibrations per minute. Touching the distributor base, while packed in dry ice, along with a pipe wrench moving it back and forth, with penetrating oil, and possibly some gentle prying under the distributor collar should finally get that distributor out in 1 piece without breaking it. Maybe figure out some way of clamping or attaching the end of the tool to the distributor and pull on it with the tool running.

Or place this tool under the distributor housing (horizontally) on the upper side but under the housing and allow it to hang over on 1 side to attach a rope to the outer end of the probe then another piece of rope attached on the inner end. Turn the machine on and pull while even twisting with a pipe wrench.........
Even attach the 2 ropes to a piece of board or large wrench to make a handle in order to pull on up on it. Hopefully you can visualize what I am talking about.

See Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P4tKtwbEAk
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_17783_17783

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI2dWojG9fE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysjW9FTIMI

There is a cool attachment for a drill on Youtube, but the link won't paste here correctly. Do a search for "Wallbrator" on Youtube or see 14th video on this Youtube Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/liteform/videos

"The Wacker":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRAXAEFGluc

Anyway, if that doesn't work, you'll certainly show that distributor a good time! :eyebrow: :rofl: :getaway:

The Ape Man
06-17-13, 05:31 PM
I think a warm engine would be better if it still runs. That's how I did mine.

I had a large wrench on the distributor and moved it back and fourth for the better part of an hour before the thing started really moving. Pretty brutal.

cadchris
06-17-13, 08:06 PM
If you haven't read the Metalurgist forum's thread that I posted my concerns in a few pages ago, here it is again:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=345616

Most of the Engineers and Metalurgist confirmed my initial recommendations. The aluminum is very conductive vs. the cast iron and the thermal expansion rate of Aluminum is greater than cast iron. Yes the cast iron bore will slightly enlarge at 200 F. but the cast aluminum will also act as a heatsink and expand exponentially due to aluminum's characteristics. Just to note, were dealing with 2 different types of metals unlike heating a bolt or other object that most times are "like" metals.

It was also confirmed to only carefully heat the distributor to a certain temp. to tighten it in the cast iron bore to crush the corrosional bond. Then allow to cool over night to allow the cast aluminum to shrink in order to provide more clearance in the bore. This heating cycle is an attempt to initially crush the corrosion particles.

Then after heat cycle/treatment: supercooling the distributor is agreed to be most logical in order to give the most clearance to shrink that cast aluminum distributor shaft away from the cast iron bore in order to remove it in addition with the use of penetrating oil, and my recommendation of some form of induced harmonic vibrations.

The Ape Man
06-18-13, 10:02 AM
If you haven't read the Metalurgist forum's thread that I posted my concerns in a few pages ago, here it is again:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=345616

Most of the Engineers and Metalurgist confirmed my initial recommendations. The aluminum is very conductive vs. the cast iron and the thermal expansion rate of Aluminum is greater than cast iron. Yes the cast iron bore will slightly enlarge at 200 F. but the cast aluminum will also act as a heatsink and expand exponentially due to aluminum's characteristics. Just to note, were dealing with 2 different types of metals unlike heating a bolt or other object that most times are "like" metals.

It was also confirmed to only carefully heat the distributor to a certain temp. to tighten it in the cast iron bore to crush the corrosional bond. Then allow to cool over night to allow the cast aluminum to shrink in order to provide more clearance in the bore. This heating cycle is an attempt to initially crush the corrosion particles.

Then after heat cycle/treatment: supercooling the distributor is agreed to be most logical in order to give the most clearance to shrink that cast aluminum distributor shaft away from the cast iron bore in order to remove it in addition with the use of penetrating oil, and my recommendation of some form of induced harmonic vibrations.

Were you able to identify the exact allows in the distributor and block in order to get an accurate comparison of thermal expansion?

Mine didn't move at all until I heated the engine and cooled the distributor. I should have included the cooling the distributor part once again.

cadchris
06-18-13, 12:12 PM
The answer I got from the Metalurgist on that forum is what I expected and there is not a way to i.d. the "alloy's" (metal composition) of the block or distributor unless someone would submit it for lab analysis. But, one engineer eluded to the generalities of expansion rates which was at least my intention to see if someone would post a comment.
Heating the engine and cooling the distributor was my original idea and made sense due to the high expansion/contraction rates of aluminum, but in approaching the extreme in both directions concerned me which is why I wanted to ask the engineers on that forum regarding this or even less, (warmer) extreme variance in temps. One engineer did confirm my belief of cracking something due to thermal shock.

In the case of this heavy duty cast iron block, I seriously doubt it, but I'd be concerned of super-cooling the distributor to -300F+. with liquid nitrogen which I had a feeling at those temps would definitely cause alloy brittleness. But the availability of liquid nitrogen would also be a problem, which is why I thought of different compressed gasses "boiling point temps" (discharge temps) but most were in the -15 range like the easiest available of 134a Freon. Of course, other refrigerants are colder but hard to obtain and not legal to discharge into the open atmosphere like R22 or others:
http://www.airgasrefrigerants.com/refrigerant-boiling-points.php

That is why I concluded the best, safest and fairly easy way to super cool the distributor to -70F with liquid CO2, or -100F with dry ice made from liquid CO2, which is easily obtainable in some form like a CO2 gas cylinder or "CO2 ONLY" fire extinguisher, or already made dry ice which is harder to find. Here is S. Fl., it's at every grocery store, but can be found at welding supply stores or compressed gas suppliers. The best would to make your own powdered dry ice from CO2 because in can be form and compacted around the distributors for quick sub-chilling before thermal soaking into the block bore....... I hope everyone can understand my rational of my all my suggestions as being the most methodical and scientific way of removing these stuck distributors......

Here's another chart on "boiling points of some common gases":
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-points-fluids-gases-d_155.html

Boiling Point = discharge temps into open atmosphere.

ApeMan, how did you cool your distributor, and heat your block. What approx. temps?

The Ape Man
06-19-13, 10:05 AM
Engineers scare me frankly.

I heated my engine by running it. Went for a long drive.

Cooled the distributor by spraying aerosol stuff laying around on the shelves here since the 90s. Had a can of CRC silicon spray lube.

I have no way of knowing if the cooling made any difference but suspect it could have. As mentioned before the part of the distributor that was binding is way below the distributor clamp.

It may have been easier to stand the car on it"s front bumper for a month.

drmenard
06-23-13, 03:29 PM
I have not read all this post, but if your having trouble getting a distributor out of a 472-500 or 425 read the first three posts of this thread.. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/249060-1968-472-disty-completely-frozen-now.html

3dfx
06-25-13, 05:23 PM
I got my distributor out! And in one piece! I still managed to wreck my vacuum advance. Well, that was my own mistake. And the distributor went pretty ugly. I'm not sure about my distributor "frame's" durability anymore. Pipe wrench did pretty big damage on distributor and now the aluminium narrow part of it isn't as thick as it was. Maybe I need a new distributor.

I used slotted screwdriver and tried to get that between block and distributor. I rotated my distributor and then put my screwdriver in position, and hit it with hammer several times. Then I sprayed penetrating oil into place where I had just hit with screwdirver and hammmer. I also used wedge shaped punch (?) when the hole between block and distributor was big enough.

I think slow is the word here. I tried to move my distributor just a little bit up and again a little up.

I also used my own made tool if distributor jammed in some point of "lifting". It was made from flat iron bar and it helped me a bit.
My tool was shaped like this:
--
|
|
| <----
---

I put the bottom part of tool (where the arrow is pointing) under the wide part of distributor and I hit the upper part with with small hammer from down.

I may make a better scetch with MS Paint someday if I have time. My tool werent that good.

cadchris
06-25-13, 06:40 PM
Dry Ice would've been the best thing to try like I posted before and was confirmed by the Engineering and Metallurgist forum to thermally contract the cast aluminum away from the iron bore after first doing a heat cycle to initially crack the corrosion and allow to cool naturally.......

Your tool is exactly what I spoke about if you could have found or rented a "Concrete Vibrator" to place under the distributor's main body housing and attach 2 ropes to the end and pull up on it. These things put out some strong vibrations and a person could never hold a "Concrete Vibrator" by hand since it's been tried like in these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuGU4TQULLw

Here is an example of how strong the vibrations are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxSjLe3tJEY

I believe using that technique would not damage the distributor along with super cooling with dry ice to -100 F. with the use of penetrating oil.

But, at least you got it out. I'd still go for an HEI distributor vs. a points distributor......

Can you tell why it was frozen and at which point on the distributor so others can get an idea of what to expect?

----------

By the way, I found another e-mail address for Al Betker (old owner of MTS who developed the MTS #3 Cam) and e-mailed him on June 23rd. The e-mail didn't come back, but nothing yet from him.............hopefully he'll contact me.........

Regards,
Chris

3dfx
07-08-13, 05:10 PM
Your tool is exactly what I spoke about if you could have found or rented a "Concrete Vibrator" to place under the distributor's main body housing and attach 2 ropes to the end and pull up on it. These things put out some strong vibrations and a person could never hold a "Concrete Vibrator" by hand since it's been tried like in these videos:Those tools would have been interesting to try but I think the cost of dry ice and tools rental would have been higher than cost of new distributor. So, it woul have been wiser to wreck my old one when taking it out with basic tools than rent some special tools.


But, at least you got it out. I'd still go for an HEI distributor vs. a points distributor......I choose points because part prices are expensive in here. I paid 110 euros from remanufactured one (which one is 33 euros in rockauto..). I have to order HEI distributor from rockauto when my friend (and his friends) order something from there. We can split all delivery and customs duty costs. If I order alone, my distributor could have cost more than 110 euros.


Can you tell why it was frozen and at which point on the distributor so others can get an idea of what to expect?
If my memory serves, it was frozen from the "collar" and from the thick part under it. I think my distributor was jammed because all that dirt which has somehow built up between block and distributor. Distributor had lost of hard carbon around it.


Today I assembled my new distributor and got my car running (first I had small problems but after a while I realized that my distributor was 180 degrees off:banghead:) I don't have any good timing light, just basic one without any adjustment. I think I'll buy an adjustable light with rpm-meter and dwell meter. Those are hard to find nowadays. There are lights only with adjustment or only with dwell meter but I haven't found any meters with everything in it.

Maybe I'll have to start looking one from Sweden or Germany. I don't know whats the problem in Finland. We have shortage from pretty much everything what comes to old cars. For example, you can't get any old style Motorcraft plugs from anywhere (this is strange because we have lots of old fords and saabs with ford V4 engines what would use those plugs). Those must be ordered from Sweden. Some AC-Delco plugs are rare in here too. Those rare models must be ordered from Sweden too. This is strange.

It's great that we have some small stores which can order parts straight from Sweden. No big store does that, they just say "no, we can't provide you that" and likely (if I'm buying Motorcraft plugs) they just offer me some NGK ones which just don't work....

cadchris
07-08-13, 11:22 PM
I love my Innova/Equus Digital Timing Light that has all the functions built in. Advance, Dwell, RPM. These things are made in China like everything else in the U.S., so I'd expect they are distributed in every country around the world, except Finland!!!!!!
:hmm::histeric:

Just continuing your joke since your bitching about your county! :thumbsup:

I see these timing lights on E-bay and Amazon. Hopefully you can find one. if not, all you need is a timing light with an advance dial, and a separate meter that measures Dwell for setting up your points and a tachometer.

http://www.equus.com/Product/5568/

http://www.iequus.com/Product/Diagnostic/timing.html

http://www.iequus.com/Product/Detail/1ED4E438-2894-46E6-8DD0-3D36BC2E44BE

Video comparing a few of their different timing lights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViDA9IrkTtI

I have the old version of the Pro 5568 which is about 15yrs old and has 5 buttons like this one on E-bay, but I think they have the wrong part# listed. I'll have to look at mine for the part number so you can search for the older discontinued model.

These guys ship World Wide:

61.00 Euros. Item #3568. The picture shows a light that has Dwell Function, but not the description. They must be using an old photo from the older version of the PRO Light with the red case in the 2nd link below which is the #5568
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EQUUS-INNOVA-3568-Timing-Light-Advanced-Digital-Equus-Products-/290926635178?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item43bc9428aa&vxp=mtr

This it a good timing light with all functions:
89.00 Euros:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EQUUS-INNOVA-5568-Professional-Timing-Light-DIS-/121111992404?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item1c32d65854



If you can find this brand, make sure it is a 5 button that has the Dwell function for setting your points used through the green boot hookup wire lead.

My old version had a plastic pickup that is burned up from hitting a header, but still works with some electrical tape! I'll have to order a new harness that comes with the metal pickup like the new 5568 PRO has. You might find the older model with the plastic pickup......just so you know.

3dfx
07-24-13, 10:45 AM
I love my Innova/Equus Digital Timing Light that has all the functions built in. Advance, Dwell, RPM. These things are made in China like everything else in the U.S., so I'd expect they are distributed in every country around the world, except Finland!!!!!!Guess what.....

I did some investigation on timing lights avainable in Finland, and I couldn't find any reasonable timing light. No Equus lights nothing:banghead:

Same problem is with many high-quality professional hand tools. We xhave only low to medium guality tools in many stores but no high quality, for example Stahlwille, Snap-on and Mac-tools are difficult to find...

Maybe I order one from Germany or Sweden....I just have to find a store which has them.




But the good news, my car is running fine (I'm just having some idle problems but nothing more serious, I opened a new thread for them) and soon I get my first MPG results with new distributor.

Now I set my points gap to 0,40mm and my timing advance to 7 degrees BTDC with no vacuum advance, engine idling about 800rpm. When I get a proper timing light I can do more adjustment in total advance etc.

cadchris
07-26-13, 06:12 PM
I e-mailed Equus here in the U.S., but they do not distribute to Europe from their U.S. office. So I called them just now......... They told me to tell you to do an internet, e-bay search for the items #5568 or #590 518


I think Equus U.S. is a private licenced company here in the U.S. and there are other licenced company's in Europe who sell their product line and timing lights. These things are made in Tawian but their old web-site has no contact info to e-mail them but I found 1 or 2 representatives in Taiwan to e-mail.
I'll try to see if they can give me a distributor list in Europe or Finland or if they will sell to you direct from the factory.

I did find the Equus 5568 on the German "Amazon" site if it helps.
http://www.amazon.de/Stroboskoplampe-Z%C3%BCndzeitpunkteinstellpistole-Digital-Schlie%C3%9Fwinkeleinstellung-Cylinder/dp/B000EVU8J8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374874809&sr=8-1&keywords=equus+timing+light

Here is the Taiwan site and product #590 518. Maybe try that number when doing a search. Also try a broad internet search "Innova or Equus Timing Light":
http://www.equus.cn/english/products/product1.asp?app_id=26

http://www.equus.cn/english/products/product2.asp?app1_id=9

Just to note, if you find one, make sure it has the metal inductive clamp. My old one had a plastic clamp which warped since I had it too close to the exhaust manifold when clamped on the plug wire. Also, if you don't get a signal, take the clamp off and turn it around when attaching to the plug wire.

70eldo
08-01-13, 08:09 AM
Hey 3dfx

check out voelkner.de for tools and equipment.
Otherwise Sweden has a VAST community of classic US cars and have many parts stores there.
Good luck!

cadchris
08-02-13, 01:20 AM
3dfx.

I just got a reply from the Taiwan mfg. of the Equus/Innova Timing Light that has multiple functions.

Maybe you've heard about this company called "CEI Conrad Electronic" part #857336:
http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/857336/Equus-5568-Pro-Digital-Timing-Light-12V

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/content/cms_au_int/cms_au_int


There are so many cheap timing lights made in China which is where I found the Taiwan manufacture of Equus on Alibaba.com.

I did find the same timing light on the link that "70Eldo" posted. The "Red" colored timing light has all the functions and the "Black" timing light is just a basic timing light: Product #C34228
http://www.voelkner.de/categories/6823_6878_7177/Auto-Navigation/Auto-Werkzeug/Auto-Mess-Testgeraete.html?page=3

3dfx
08-04-13, 08:30 AM
I did find the same timing light on the link that "70Eldo" posted. The "Red" colored timing light has all the functions and the "Black" timing light is just a basic timing light: Product #C34228This voelkner.de has cheapest equus "red" timing light I have seen in Europe.

I still have to check what Swedish shops has to offer.



I had to add first liter of oil into my engine. It burns one liter on 1000miles....

Maybe I rebuild my engine in next winter..

I was thinking, does any other engine than Cadillac engine fit in my Cadillac without any huge work? Something like olds 350 or 307? Those engines are cheap in Finland (something like 40 to 100 euros). Could some eighties olds 307 fit in Cadillac easily? I've been thinking this could be temporary engine for just as long until the rebuild is completed.

Cadillac engines are rare and expensive in here..

3dfx
09-08-13, 10:48 AM
I opened some new threads about my problems and rebuilding my engine:

Cadillac 1969 quadrajet bad idle (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/332498-cadillac-1969-quadrajet-bad-idle.html) First I thought my idle problems were caused by wrong mixtures but it went problems went worse...

Thread about my engine rebuild (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/363185-1969-472-rebuild.html)

Thread about swapping olds engine to my cadillac for the time when my rebuild is ready (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/363193-olds-350-307-1969-cadillac.html)

3dfx
11-10-13, 04:13 PM
Hello again

Recently I have been thinking about installing numerically lower rear axle gears. Something like mid to late 70's Cadillacs had. Only problem is converter slippage. I'm afraid about having higher stall speed converter in my '69 than those late 70's cars.

Are there any differences in those torque converters?



I got some information about my engine healt soon when I get my homemade pass-leak-tester ready..

cadchris
11-10-13, 05:42 PM
I can't remember if I sent you the links on how to make your own "Cylinder Leak Down Tester". This info was probably the best info I've seen:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1110788-leak-down-tester-prelim.html

In the link above are 2 YOUTUBE videos. Make sure you read all the comments in each video for more info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UcOn8OEt0Y

I posted in the video above and verified that this person knows what he is talking about:
Here's what the "evolutionm forum" stated: "Anyone who knows anything about the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) knows FAA doesn't screw around when it comes to engine maintenance standards. FAA established the standard for leakdown testing, and requires a 1mm (.040") orifice be placed between the two gauges. In other words, when pressure is applied (e.g. 100psi), what we are looking for is leakage in the cylinder as compared to the airflow through a 1mm orifice at that pressure."

There are also many tech. articles and techniques on doing and correctly diagnosing problems with a "Leak Down Tester" :
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/viewall.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNf0IOIvIcY

There are many videos on the side bar of Youtube or on the internet but this was some of the best info I found.


As far as the converter, I think think the 1st most important factor is to match it to the cam shaft then rear gears, but I think the experts say it must be matched to the cam, gears, weight, ect....ect....

You should probably e-mail YANK Converters http://www.converter.cc/ , or
Precission Industries http://www.converter.com/ ,
Arte Carr http://www.cpttransmission.com/media.htm

These are smaller company's who specialize in building well engineered billet converters which are very high quality vs. the regular performance converters out there. You may also ask your question to TCI which is a much larger mainstream company. Not sure if you want to try and swap out a later converter for your car....but, I'd send an e-mail to these guys for advice.

3dfx
11-13-13, 02:13 PM
I got my leak-down tester ready today. I soldered 1mm welding nozzle inside pneumatic pipe with silver to get this small orifice done.




¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨pressure meter pressure meter
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨||¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨||
male coupling=== pressure regulator== ==1mm orifice== ====female coupling



I compared results with mag-tools factory made leak down tester and I got pretty similar results with my tester. Maybe next weekend I'll test my cadillac for pass leaks.

3dfx
11-18-13, 02:28 PM
Hi

Today I managed to check half of cylinders with my friend before my friend had to go to night shift...


Cylinder 1 was way worse than the others. It had 50% pass leak, and it all leaked to cylinder 6 and carburetor, if my memory serves. Does cylinder 6 have intake stroke when cylinder one ignites? The intake valve's rocking arm didn't have any gap. I poured some oil into cylinder and it didn't made any difference.

I should have plugged the spark plug hole, where air came out and then check where air comes out....... Well, I'll check that tomorrow.


Other cylinders had something like 30% pass leak and they didn't came much better when I poured small amout of oil into cylinder. So, guess I'm having bad valves.....

3dfx
11-19-13, 02:39 PM
I got all my cylindres tested, and here are my results with cold engine:

1. 50%
2. 24%
3. 35%
4. 30%
5. 30%
6. 30%
7. 30%
8. 35%

I poured some oil and result went something like 10% better.


One strange thing occured when I measured cylinder 4.:hmm: First I couldn't get any good results. I got something like 80% leakage. Then strange "BLOP"- sound came from engine, and after that I got this 30% leakage. Could there be some hardened carbon between cylinderhead (I don't know what that machined sealing surface is in english....) and valve? And when I pressurised that cylinder, air flow and pressure blew some carbon into exhaust and closed the valve? I think this carbon between cylinder head and valve can cause some leak in this motor because those valve springs are very weak and they can't shut that valve......

What kinds of results this kind of engine should get?

cadchris
11-19-13, 09:44 PM
I was going to let others maybe comment before I did on your last post.......as I said in the past and was going to say again, but you answered your own question......"carbon, Carbon, CARBON".

I'm sure that's what's going on. From what I've read about that motor is that the valve springs are weak and can be pushed in by hand. That is not a lot of pressure on the "Valve Seat" which I believe you are talking about and didn't know the name of. Minimal pressure would allow build up of carbon since the valve does not have a lot high pressure tension on it (valve seat pressure) which would keep the valve clean. That's what I think has happened on your motor.....in addition, oil is probably getting past the rings because they ring pack is seized up with carbon allowing more oil to be burned creating more combustion chamber carbon. I'm sure the valve seals are also probably allowing oil into the upper valves causing again, more carbon, but that could be controlled if everything was cleaned with continuous treatment of the fuel or the seals can be easily replaced without removing the heads........

I don't know if it's possible to bend valves on that motor.

I think somewhere on this thread I gave you some idea's of what to use to dissolve carbon other than water.

The old Berryman B12 Chemtool #0116 product we have here in the U.S. since the 1940's is a very strong solevant.

I found my notes from their chemists who told me it can be re-produced if you can not find it:

A ratio of::::::: 2 parts Tolulene : 1 part Acetone : 1 part MEK ( Methyl ethyl ketone) 2 liter of Tol, 1 liter of Acetone, and 1 Liter of MEK. Maybe mix in some light weight oil for lubrication and to extend the "wet time" since they will evaporate very quickly....... These chemicals can be purchased at your local paint store.

The trick would be to somehow soak the backs of the valves. You really have to put some thought into this for an aggressive treatment and soak which will also help dissolve carbon in the ring pack.

Here's maybe one way to do it. Remove all spark plugs, remove the coil wire, place towels over each bank of spark plug holes, crank the motor for about 5 seconds while pouring in a 1/2 liter of this mixture down the carburetor. Maybe use a weak battery to crank slowly. Allow to soak for 24 hrs. Hopefully some valves will end up closed and keep the mixture in contact with the seat/valves, but it will probably all leak past within a few minutes to seconds. Do the procedure again for maybe 3 seconds, and hopefully other valves will end up closed allowing the liquid to soak the valves/seats. Do this a few times over the next few days, and drain the oil or take the drain plug out while doing this. Keeping the plugs out will ensure you don't get hydro-lock, but I'm sure all of the fluid would drain into the pan within minutes or within a few hours. If it doesn't, you will know which ring packs are clean and tight because when cranking, all of the fluid would shoot out of the plugs holes.

Maybe even loosen all of the intake rocker arms, and just pour the mixture down the carburetor and fill up the intake manifold and allow it to soak into the combustion chamber, but keep the plugs in this way you flood each combustion chamber and fill it up so the level stays above the valves. It will eventually soak past each piston and out the oil pan. I would collect the mixture, and filter it through rags, and reuse it and keep pouring it down the carburetor. You may even need to drill a small hole into the lowest point of the exhaust pipe under the exhaust manifolds to drain any fluid that may get into the exhaust or remove a lower section of exhaust to blow out the mixture when cranking......

Allow it to soak for a few days to soften the carbon. Then do a rinse with kerosene / diesel fuel mixed with light weight oil to re-coat all parts with some oil before start up and to flush out the Tolulene/MEK/Acetone mixture. After you flushed it out, maybe leave the plugs out, and drain plug to allow all of the Tol/MEK/ACT to flash-off and evaporate for 24 hours. Try to spin/rotate the valves by hand back and forth. Tighten all of the rocker arms to specification, put a few squirts of oil into each cylinder, start/crank the motor without the plugs, install plugs, add oil, and start it up and allow to idle up to temperature, then use water or carburetor cleaner down the carb while revving the motor, then take it out on the road and do full speed passes/runs to blow out carbon.

That's an extreme approach. I and some of our old fleet mechanics have done similar procedures and our Delivery Trucks with Big Block Chevy Motors. They survived and no reason the Caddy motor couldn't.

Just think about what your doing and take a methodical approach.

You could always just keep trying the fuel additives, or just remove the heads to clean the valves manually, and then do a piston soak when the heads are off and allow some strong solevant to sit on top of the pistons.......

One of the best ways to dissolve carbon is ammonia based paint stripper or even 10% ammonia by itself but that would wash down the cylinder walls. There is even restaurant Grill and Oven Stove Cleaner, which is Tolulene or Amonia based that dissolves hard carbon on stoves, grills, and cooking pots.

I think I mentioned somewhere here about some strong but factory approved carbon cleaners:

GM Piston and Ring Cleaner #12378549. It should be available in Europe, but is expensive but will be hard to direct it to clean the valve with the heads on. Also GM CLEENS also known as GM Top End Cleaner (TEC) but is no longer sold in the U.S. but can be found on e-bay:
http://www.j-body.com/forum/showthread.php?21945-GM-Cleans-meets-a-high-mileage-motor-56K-com-back-tomorow

Or; MOPAR CCC (Combustion Chamber Cleaner)

Here is a specific TSB and specific technique on using it:
http://jameskbeard.com/jameskbeard/Cadillac_Files/02-06-01-009C_Oil_Consumption.pdf

There was also a cleaner I posted about that is popular to dissolve firearm / gun carbon called "Ed's RED Bore Cleaner".

Here is a very well known product that is environmentally friendly, but is used to soak parts after dissembled. I've talked to the mfg. about using in the engine, but they said their concern would be flash rust on iron like the cylinder walls.

http://www.orisonllc.com/pistonkleen.html


Depends on how aggressive you want to get with treating this condition, but this motor appears to be badly carboned from my initial thoughts before you did the leak-down or compression test which seems to indicate it. After this aggressive carbon soak, I'm sure the compression test and leak-down will improve significantly.

Once again, the engine can not be efficient for fuel economy if it has ton's of carbon.

Maybe others can add their concerns, thoughts and ideas...

----------

By the way, to answer your question about what is acceptable for leakdown specs....

Here's another article on the subject and they confirm anything more than 20% for any engine is too much.

I still believe you have carboned valve seats and ring packs:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/viewall.html


Simple tips:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-engines-system-technical-discussion/95294-cylinder-leak-down-test-procedure-percentage.html

Old TAVIA Tool Instructions:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040225191535/http://www.tavia.com/08015_instructions.html

T-ELDO
01-07-14, 12:10 AM
You might try disconnecting the secondaries on the carb. Then you would only be running on the front primaries, which is how the motor runs most of the time anyway, and the secondaries would never open if you happened to get into the throttle sometime. My 76 Eldorado with the 500 gets
about 14 mpg on the highway like this, which might not be so great, but it gets it in style!!