: 4.6 litre dual turbo Northstar project, engine only?



ultima_gtr
12-23-04, 04:14 PM
Hi Folks,

Firstly, I want to say I am so glad I found this place!

Now down to business.

I had a wacky thought the other day: Could I put a Northstar 4.6 litre V8 in my Ultima GTR? It would need to produce around 550 to 650 Bhp, and about 470-500 ft Lbs torque to replace the Chevy 383 powertrain. The Northstar has some qualities that I like in an engine but I won't go into that here. I am considering all possiblities including dual turbos. The engine needs to be street friendly and reliable, too (oh Geez, that's easy enough, eh..?). Does anybody know of a Northstar being bumped up to numbers like this? It's a lot to ask of this little motor, but I suspect it could be done within reasonable money (less than $15K not including the crate motor) and would make quite the show piece.
If you could point me in the right direction, I would be grateful.
Thanks!

Sinister Angel
12-23-04, 04:51 PM
You are in luck my friend!

http://www.mechtech-ms.com/indexcatalog.html

They do the package for sandcars, but I think it would work for your GTR (Nice lookin car by the way!)

http://www.mechtech-ms.com/html/ns_access.html

http://www.mechtech-ms.com/html/body_offroadengines.html

Hope this helps :thumbsup:

ultima_gtr
12-23-04, 09:07 PM
Sinister Angel,

Very cool of you to send me that link! Thank you so much! That's exactly what I am thinking about, and I am glad to know I'm not really nuts for thinking, "Hey, that Northstar just might be THE MOTOR for this thing!"

If anyone else has more ideas, please send them my way!

Happy Holidays to everyone and as I explore this idea more I will keep you all posted.
Nice to be on board with ya.

Thanks,
Scott

caddywhizkid
12-23-04, 09:42 PM
Make sure you do the timserts for the heads. Search this forum for more info.

danbuc
12-23-04, 10:05 PM
http://www.chrfab.com does blown and dual turbo setups for the northstar. They specialize in building sandrails also. That Mechtech company looks like they have a lot of really nice stuff. Good Luck with your project, it sounds awesome! :thumbsup:

Riceless
12-25-04, 04:33 AM
What the heck is that??? I love it!!!! Where do ya find something like that??? Is it a kit??? Thats awsome!!!!!!!!! I gotta ask, whats one of those cost?

an01sts
12-26-04, 03:47 AM
Now I'm not trying to sell out the Northstar crew, and maybe it's just because you want something different. My thoughts are do you know what you could do if you dredged up someone's boat moring, a coperate GM V8 block and spent $15k setting it up? I love to think outside of the box; even so, unfortuanatly chebby's tradtional design is tried and true in the megathousands of hp. You're talking $20+k. If I were in the $20+K range on engine investment, you could make a safe bet that it would be tried and true platform, and it would cranking at at least 800 to 1,000hp. But to each his own.

ultima_gtr
12-26-04, 02:44 PM
Hi Folks,

To Answer Riceless' question, the car is an Ultima GTR, made by Ultima Sports LTD from England. It's not a kit car per se, it uses no donor parts and it's construction is similar to a Le Mans car. It's main competition is the Mclaren F1, but costs about 1/10 the price, with the right engine, it will beat the Mclaren in 0 to 60, 0 to 100, quarter mile, 0 to 100 to 0, and with the right gearing it will beat Mclarens top end speed at nearly 240 MPH.

Of course, I don't drive like that :lildevil:

It does a few things really well:
1. accelerates. Its acceleration can only be described as, well, um...violent.
2. Stops. Same thing as a above. The "Good God! I'm going to die! :eek: " effect.
3. It gets attention. Thats not big on my list.
4. Makes your wife worry and miss you all of a sudden. Not sure why.
5. Makes the insurance people and the liscensing folks scratch their heads.
That's about it. The spartan interior is all business. It's not your daily commuter/ family room on wheels. Below is a link for more info, but I haven't forgetten this is a Cadillac board and thus this will be the last I mention of it.
Scott

www.ultimasports.co.uk

ultima_gtr
12-26-04, 02:55 PM
To an01STS,

I agree with what you are saying about the Chevy engine in all respects. The reasons I am looking at the Northstar Engine are:
1. Drivetrain snobery. It's aluminum, it's 32 Valves, sleeker etc.
2.A unique challenge that could get some interest from industry.

I am not a Camaro or Vette kind of guy. I have thought about the BMW N73 V12, but nah, TOO MUCH work there :cookoo: .
Thanks for the input, though.
Scott

eldorado1
12-26-04, 05:40 PM
Interesting setup you have there... Is it longitudinal? Transverse? Are you planning on keeping the tranny that's in there now? (If so, you'll need an adapter plate... assuming you're not already running one for like a porsche transaxle or something... btw - have you weighed that thing? I'm curious as to what it weighs.

To answer your question, you are probably going to need to tear down the northstar to install lower compression forged pistons to run in the 600hp range. Stock pistons are good up to 7psi or so (intercooled). Since it's apart, you might want to consider upgrading the cams and valvesprings ($700 total), and the connecting rods (the bolts are a little too weak for 7k+rpms). This will get you a 8000rpm redline. It's a lot easier to make HP in the upper RPMs (plus it sounds cooler), but it's up to you.

You are probably going to need to stuff an intercooler somewhere.

You will need an aftermarket ECM (Commander 950 "plug and play"- $1500, link ECM - $1300 you build the harness)

You will need a 93-94 cast magnesium intake. The 95+'s have a flapper door which would be difficult to seal under boost. On top of that, one backfire, and you turn it into plastic shrapnel. the 93-94 intakes can take the boost and overpressure events (consider a BOV anyways), and (iirc) just need to remove the rubber bolt cushions to prevent the top from leaking boost. I think if you sourced the parts right, you could have a complete 600+hp, 8krpm redline northstar for about $10k installed, including new engine. (You do the work yourself of course)

btw - "sweeeeet." :thumbsup:

cart69
12-27-04, 09:25 AM
are you running the 6 spd in the ultima? its a porsche getrag trans i think, i have looked into them with my dad before a sweet car,he has a porsche 928 he going to supercharge very soon, the GTR's i have seen that made serious power usually had ls6 vette motors in them that were tweaked up. they were in your wanted horsepower range, but the thought of the n* in there is defintely cool, where do you live i want to see it!! i have been thinking of a N* for my truck would be interesting.

ultima_gtr
12-27-04, 04:10 PM
Hi Guys,
I'll answer some questions for ya.

The engine is longitudinally mounted, mid-engine, RWD, mated to a Getrag six speed manual transmission, inversely mounted with some special gearing and mounting hardware to, well, make forward actually forward! It is indeed a a transaxle made for a Porsche.
The Car weighs around 990 kg's dry with a 383 iron block engine. Thats pretty light, in fact I can't think of really any production cars the are that light. The rear wing and front air duct are often needed to keep the car stuck to the ground, but truthfully not at any speed I would drive!
You're also right about that LS6 motor as being the recommended power plant base.
I am most concerned about the reliablity factor of the N* engines, so my investigation is only beginning. It's nice to be among real enthusiasts that know a thing or two here.
Oh, BTW, I am outside of Montreal, Quebec,Canada in a place where you won't find too many english speaking people. In fact, I think I am it.
Sorta reminds me of the joke- " if you can't ever recall there being a village idiot...well, guess who!"
The research continues.

Sinister Angel
12-27-04, 09:11 PM
Thanks for the info. Keep us updated!

BeelzeBob
12-27-04, 10:31 PM
Definitely get in touch with Alan Johnson at chrfab. He can build you a turn key engine with PCM for your application. They build some excellent engines for sand cars and the light weight car and manual trans you are using makes the conversion relatively easy. AJ really understands the Northstars and what it takes to make them live at that power level.

cart69
12-28-04, 09:15 AM
dam, i was hopin you were closer as i am in central illinois, i would make the drive if it wasnt so far just to see the car in person, i love them, and its a car i have never seen before, been in somewhat comparable cars, ferrari f40, testarossa, lamborghini diablo's and porches, but anyways, i thinks it very cool what your wanting to try, they is someone else on the site that was talking of doing a single turbo on the n* still in a seville, but i dont know if he did it or wants to, i am thinking of turbo charging single or twin the new 350 i am building for my toy my 88 firebird formula, and i understand the want to have something unique

also it seems the more i read about the n* the more i want to build a new project based on using that motor, maybe in my upcoming 240Z project car i will use one they seem to be a very nice lightweight and powerful powerplant stock and i am sure with some added goodies it would only get better.

ultima_gtr
01-04-05, 06:48 PM
Hey Cart69,

You know you can go check out an Ultima at American speed in Moline Illinois, which is probably about 2 to 3 hours from you, I'm guessing. The are an Ultima sports preferred engine builder. Look them up on the web, also.

Alas, folks, I am going to forego the Northstar Idea for now. I'm going to Dual turbo the 383 with a Banks Dual turbo system. It's a bit more $ than I wanted to spend, but I really don't want reliablity issues right now. Head Gaskets and all that stuff...starts to get me worried.

To all of you with the pioneer spirit, keep plugging away and who knows, it just might lead to something you will be known for! Best of luck and thanks for all your help!
Sincerely,
Scott

Brien
01-07-05, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=eldorado1]

Stock pistons are good up to 7psi or so (intercooled). Since it's apart, you might want to consider upgrading the cams and valvesprings ($700 total), and the connecting rods (the bolts are a little too weak for 7k+rpms). This will get you a 8000rpm redline. It's a lot easier to make HP in the upper RPMs (plus it sounds cooler), but it's up to you.

You are probably going to need to stuff an intercooler somewhere.

You will need an aftermarket ECM (Commander 950 "plug and play"- $1500, link ECM - $1300 you build the harness)

You will need a 93-94 cast magnesium intake. The 95+'s have a flapper door which would be difficult to seal under boost. On top of that, one backfire, and you turn it into plastic shrapnel. the 93-94 intakes can take the boost and overpressure events (consider a BOV anyways), and (iirc) just need to remove the rubber bolt cushions to prevent the top from leaking boost. I think if you sourced the parts right, you could have a complete , 8krpm redline northstar. (You do the work yourself of course)


=================

Edlorado1 :

I would like to run a 4cam V8 in an odd-ball car I have.
A Cobra engine will set me way back in the seat - as I'm poor -
not cheap :) The Northstar looks viable once I get around the
water pump relocation - and mating the engine to the 2004 Lexus
430 6sp. automatic I got off eBay -.

Since I have to make some sort of headers - I MIGHT stick a Turbo
on the end for that 7lb boost - thanks for the Intake reco.

As I recall - Northstar came in a longer stroke engine - so in your
Opinion - which year *used* Northstar would be the strongest & produce the most Output - bang for the buck ?

Aren't the ODB I or II *hackable* - ? I would think the 7749
Typhoon ECM could be massaged to run this engine with a Turbo -
no ?

thnkx. in Advance ! :thumbsup:

JSMeloche
01-07-05, 02:49 PM
Hey man nice car! just wanted to say Hi, im from Québec also. I live in Gatineau and i have a Northstar powered 95 STS that I absolutly love, where are you near Montreal? Tu parles francais? Any way, really nice car man!!! I hope your project is doing well. The Northstar is one heck of an engine but cost a lot performance-wise... so maybee choosing a more common engine is a more obvious choice, but its less of a challenge.

JS

Katshot
01-07-05, 03:50 PM
Doing the install is nothing too hard. The HARD part will be re-engineering the Northstar to survive for any usable time at that power level. Just think, even GM had to substantially re-engineer just for a single blower install and a 440hp output.

eldorado1
01-07-05, 11:17 PM
As I recall - Northstar came in a longer stroke engine - so in your
Opinion - which year *used* Northstar would be the strongest & produce the most Output - bang for the buck ?

Aren't the ODB I or II *hackable* - ? I would think the 7749
Typhoon ECM could be massaged to run this engine with a Turbo -
no ?

thnkx. in Advance ! :thumbsup:

AFAIK, the 93-99 engines are essentially the same internals wise. I wanna say the 93-94 connecting rods and/or pistons are different somehow from the bunch, but I don't remember... I would personally get a 93-94 engine (94 preferred just because it's younger), and timesert it, new headgaskets (it is 10 years old afterall). Since it's apart, might as well change the pistons and connecting rods. Just that will get you some serious boost/hp. The OBDI ecm is hackable. There is a rudimentary chip that eliminates ABS, etc etc. To date however, I don't think anybody has used anything besides the stock ECM, holley, link, or haltech(sp?)... I'd like to see a cheaper, more customizable ECM, so if you can get that figured out..... As a side note, there is the "Megasquirt" ECM, but it's far simpler than a stock factory ecm. But it is on par with the holley, and can do boost.