: North* with a manual?????



96concours96
09-06-03, 04:47 PM
Hello all,
I have a rather strange question on a kind of "not worth it" car. I have a buddy who recently blew the auto (4T80E) transmission out of his Oldsmobile Aurora. Since this car is one heck of a beast (not like my Concours, of course), he is interested in putting a manual transmission in the aurora. I know that the engines in these Olds cars have the exact same tranny bolt pattern as it's bigger caddy brothers and sisters, so I was wondering - Has anyone ever seen a North* powered FWD caddy or aurora with a manual transmission......or even better yet, is it possible? If this was rear-wheel drive, It would be a snap.....but of course it isn't that perfect of a situation. Thanks for any help, as it is always appreciated.

Later!
Jason

elwesso
09-19-03, 05:00 PM
I dont think its possible....... There arent any (to my limited knowledge of GM tranny) FWD trannys that will bolt on...... Everything would have to be custom......

Come to think of it, did GM make a FWD MT in that era...... Off the cuff, I cant think of any, all are automatic.........

Allante North *
09-19-03, 10:49 PM
96concours96

I entertained the idea myself, and gave up due to the time and expense of such an difficult task. Has it been done? Not to my knowledge for FWD cars. Could it be done? Yes I think it could, but might be very diffucult and expensive. Keep us posted on any progress if he pursues this project.

Purplewgn2000
09-19-03, 10:53 PM
I was looking into buying a 1994 Eldy with a blown engine and slipping transmission to convert to a front drive stickshift northstar. It was kind of a dream of mine, I love to take a car and do something wild with it. Well, they told me it was impossible, and so far I agree. I havent found anything to prove its possible. I just gave up and let the car go. The only way to do so would be to convert the car to rear wheel and put the engine in like a conventional RWD, but that is just plain ridiculous. I would give it up. Buy dont fret, my next project is a 1984 Supra Celica (remember those?) with an engine out of a mid 80's T-Type. I found a motor, but its in bad shape. Wish me luck. (sorry to get off topic)

elwesso
09-19-03, 10:54 PM
Its a machine...... unlike the human body, you can build anything you want....... If he really wants to, he could drop 20k for a completely custom manual tranny......

elwesso
09-19-03, 10:57 PM
I agree....... It would be FAR easier (and cost effective, although stuff like this isnt cost effective at all) to convert it to RWD and use a RWD tranny.......

Hmmmmmm...... Maybe we could put together a kit to convert FWD northstar caddies into RWD........

If thats possible...... Ta-ta Q45.... hello RWD STS!!! :burn:

jonrodman
09-20-03, 01:05 AM
Hello all,
I have a rather strange question on a kind of "not worth it" car. I have a buddy who recently blew the auto (4T80E) transmission out of his Oldsmobile Aurora. Since this car is one heck of a beast (not like my Concours, of course), he is interested in putting a manual transmission in the aurora. I know that the engines in these Olds cars have the exact same tranny bolt pattern as it's bigger caddy brothers and sisters, so I was wondering - Has anyone ever seen a North* powered FWD caddy or aurora with a manual transmission......or even better yet, is it possible? If this was rear-wheel drive, It would be a snap.....but of course it isn't that perfect of a situation. Thanks for any help, as it is always appreciated.

Later!
Jason

Does the Northstar share a bellhousing bolt pattern with any other engines?

elwesso
09-20-03, 09:29 AM
I think there is...... I couldnt tell you which one.......

It would probably harder to find a rear end and mount the driveshaft.......

96concours96
09-21-03, 05:31 PM
*UPDATE*
Since I posted this awhile ago, I have found many dead ends, and many possiblities.

For one, the Oldsmobile Aurora in later years had two engines: The 4.0 liter (basically a NorthStar v8 - same bolt patterns as the Cadillac brother), and a smaller v6. The interesting part is that this v6 is also shared with the Olds Alero-WHICH could come with an optional 5 speed manual! I don't know if olds used the same bolt pattern for the v6, I do know, however that the exact same auto (the 4T80E) was used on BOTH the v8 and v6 versions of the Aurora. Assuming that GM was lazy as usual, I would guess that an Alero manual tranny would just simply snap in. Anyone have any input on this?

Second option: A friend of mine has an article out of a magazine that says certain FWD oldmobiles from the eighties have the exact same bolt patterns and constant velocity joint lengths as it's newer olds brothers. However, it also says some of the older oldmobiles also share the bolt pattern with, you got it, the NorthStar! This is going to take ALOT of research, but this article made it sound like someone had already done this conversion to a late nineties Eldorado.

Third and hardest: Amazingly, this is kinda funny. If we were to convert it to RWD, then I found something very interesting that would make it extremely easy to do so. Just use a transmission and rear end out of an Isuzu Trooper or Amigo. That's right-the tranny bolts right onto the NorthStar engines! Obviously, the Conversion part would kinda stink, but I thought it was interesting that our engines would just simply bolt right up to an Isuzu tranny. I know they're GM, but that's kinda funny. So if any of you guys have a totaled NorthStar car, and an Isuzu, HAVE AT IT!

Anyway, sorry I couldn't give more info. I'm gonna track down the writer of that article mentioned in #2, and check out the validity of this claim. As always, if anyone has further input, I greatly appreciate it!
Later!

jonrodman
09-21-03, 11:02 PM
I think you are on the right track and I bet that it is possible to put together a manual shift Eldo or Aurora from mostly junkyard parts. The good news about the older parts bolting up is that the older parts are frequently cheaper.

20 years ago I used to combine all sorts of engine and transmission combinations into different vehicles. It was amazing what would bolt together. Some combinations worked great, and some were not so great. Back then I could tell you about all the different bolt patterns, but now I don't know any of the current patterns.

While you are fishing around, maybe you could find a combination for a Manual Shift, All-Wheel Drive NS Aurora. I bet that is completely possible also. The drawback is going to be longevity. The NS has more torque and power than most of the V-6 engines and the Aurora is heavier than most of those older Oldsmobiles.

GM ownes part of Isuzu so it is not surprising that over time parts are going to become more interchangeable. I think I read recently that GM purchased some or all of Isuzu for the Diesel technology and has shared some of that technology with Honda in exchange for the Variable Valve Timing technology that is being inplimented on the new Northstars.

Good luck with your project, however it turns out.

botboy
09-22-03, 12:46 AM
The V6 bellhousings out of the 90's S-10's/Sonoma/S15 and F-body (V6 Camaro/Firebird) will fit the northstar with a bolt hole moved (only one), a pocket welded in for the starter and the lower starter location welded shut (wouldn't exactly want sand getting in your clutch now would you?). Firebird/Camaro bellhousings are the stronger of the two, and unlike (or at least I assume so) the Isuzu bellhousings, these will bolt to older, beefier transmissions from GM (like the Muncie M-22 "Rockcrusher", various Saginaw, T-10 and T56 transmissions).

Super Trooper
11-07-03, 11:42 AM
*UPDATE*
Since I posted this awhile ago, I have found many dead ends, and many possiblities.

Olds Alero-WHICH could come with an optional 5 speed manual! I don't know if olds used the same bolt pattern for the v6, I do know, however that the exact same auto (the 4T80E) was used on BOTH the v8 and v6 versions of the Aurora.

(SNIP)

Third and hardest: Amazingly, this is kinda funny. If we were to convert it to RWD, then I found something very interesting that would make it extremely easy to do so. Just use a transmission and rear end out of an Isuzu Trooper or Amigo. That's right-the tranny bolts right onto the NorthStar engines! Obviously, the Conversion part would kinda stink, but I thought it was interesting that our engines would just simply bolt right up to an Isuzu tranny. I know they're GM, but that's kinda funny. So if any of you guys have a totaled NorthStar car, and an Isuzu, HAVE AT IT!

Howdy

I found this thread as a part of a search to find the dimensions of the bellhousing bolt holes for GM 60 degree engines.

First from what I understand the Oldsmobile Alero mentioned above is a rear wheel drive. It shares the same transmission, except for gear ratios and tail shaft as the one in Isuzu SUVs, Trooper, Rodeo, and Amigo. It's the 4L30-E transmission. The engine in the Alero is supposed to be a 4.0L Aurora (Northstar) engine with the aft 2 cylinders lopped off. :)

Second. Where did you find the information about the Northstar/Isuzu swaps? I hope it wasn't my site, only because I am looking for more information than I have, so another source would be helpful.

Third The Northstar series engines do have the same bolt pattern as all the GM 60 degree engines. Except that there is one bolt hole that has to be relocated, and the Northstar series engines have the starter on the top of the engine between the cylinders.

Lastly, Does anyone have the dimensions of the bellhousing pattern from the Northstar series of engines? I need the information to footnote some of my data.

Thanks

Bruce

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/

Greg55_99
11-07-03, 07:15 PM
I think I've hit on some other things:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4244

Greg

Super Trooper
11-07-03, 07:53 PM
Howdy

I found this thread as a part of a search to find the dimensions of the bellhousing bolt holes for GM 60 degree engines.

]

I forgot to mention the reason I need those dimensions, is that I am researching Aurora/Northstar swaps into Isuzu Troopers.

Thanks for the link Greg.

Bruce

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/

ShadowLvr400
11-08-03, 12:26 AM
[QUOTE=Super Trooper
First from what I understand the Oldsmobile Alero mentioned above is a rear wheel drive. It shares the same transmission, except for gear ratios and tail shaft as the one in Isuzu SUVs, Trooper, Rodeo, and Amigo. It's the 4L30-E transmission. The engine in the Alero is supposed to be a 4.0L Aurora (Northstar) engine with the aft 2 cylinders lopped off. :)
[/QUOTE]

Uhm, don't know who told you the Alero is RWD. They're not. Only 1 olds going still has RWD, and that's the Bravada SUV. While the Alero does have a 5 spd available, I thought it was only mated to the 4cyl version. If it is indeed on the V6, someone can correct me, I dont object. The other drawback, is the durability. The 4t80-e is a tank of a tranny. The Alero's tranny isn't so tough....

GodspeedRacing
11-08-03, 01:01 AM
I dont know about the older ones, but Caddy has designed and released a 400hp NS on a CTS w/ a 6 speed. Dont know if that will help, but its a thought!

STSEli
11-08-03, 09:34 AM
The "shortstar" 3.5V6 found in the Aurora is NOT the same V6 in the Alero. The Alero gets a 3.4 pushrod V6 that is basically just a stroked 3.1. Its the Intrigue that gets the shortstar and it is mated to a 4T60E in that car.

Also, The 5 speed Getrag that is optional in the Alero (and the grand am which is the Aleros twin) is ONLY available with the 4 cyl.

The only option I could possibly think of would be a rebuilt and beefed up 5 speed from an early 90s grand prix with the 3.4 DOHC V6. In stock form, they would not handle the torque though.

-Eli

STSEli
11-08-03, 09:36 AM
I dont know about the older ones, but Caddy has designed and released a 400hp NS on a CTS w/ a 6 speed. Dont know if that will help, but its a thought!

Its RWD and uses a T56 tranny.

-Eli

Super Trooper
11-08-03, 09:38 AM
[QUOTE=ShadowLvr400
Uhm, don't know who told you the Alero is RWD. They're not. ..[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I had Oldsmobiles on the brain when I wrote that. Please accept my apoligies, and substute Catera for Alero in all the above.

Yours in shame and humiliation.

Bruce

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/

growe3
11-08-03, 11:32 AM
Its RWD and uses a T56 tranny.

-Eli

And I believe it is a Corvette engine, not a Northstar.

Stoneage_Caddy
11-08-03, 01:51 PM
notherstars have been mated to manual transmissions , go look up v8 archie of v8 fireo fame , the isuzu built 5 speed that was mated to the original 60 degree 2.8 in the fireo gt do sorta bolt up to the 60 degree n* problem being is the bell houseing on the isuzu/fiero 5 speed doent have the nesseary hole for the n*/aurora starter , other problem being is this works in the fireo , the loads on the tranny would be diffrent in another car , what works on a 2500 lb fireo wont work in a 4,000 lb aurora

the 4t80e is the only real solid tranny availbe for high output GM front wheel drive apps

ellives
11-09-03, 03:02 PM
And I believe it is a Corvette engine, not a Northstar.


Correct...... sort of.. it is the LS6 from the Z06 flavor of the Corvette....


Can you say G-forces?

Ells

97blkeldo
02-07-04, 05:17 PM
the cts-v is a beautiful car. its an ls1 or ls6 out of the zo6 from what i no. i might not know to much though. haha tell me if im wrong. but one day ill sell me 97 eldo and get that.

Sean McDonald
02-07-04, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=ShadowLvr400
Uhm, don't know who told you the Alero is RWD. They're not. ..
Sorry, I had Oldsmobiles on the brain when I wrote that. Please accept my apoligies, and substute Catera for Alero in all the above.

Yours in shame and humiliation.

Bruce

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/[/QUOTE]
:confused: Aren't Catera's FWD also?

elwesso
02-07-04, 09:53 PM
Nope, they are RWD..... :)

Fiero STS
02-08-04, 11:57 AM
Yes you can put a manual trans behind a N* the Fiero Getrag 5 speed bolts up with a little mod to the bellhousing for starter clearence and one bolt hole also there are some guys on the Pennock's Fiero Forum who have been working to get a flywheel made for the N*. Problem with a FWD trans is GM never put a manual trans behind anything with more than 250hp and 250lbs torque. so if you go this route be sure to have spares as the hp and torque will kill these transmissions. also the gear ratios are not optimal for N*'s

customGTP
02-08-04, 05:04 PM
A few things here gents,

Fiero STS: do you know what the "ideal" gear ratios would be? let me know.
.................................................. .................................................. ...
This is what I'm doing.... My project consists of these items:

Pontiac Grand Prix, 1994, 137K little to no rust
Caddy Northstar motor 300HP Vin 9, 1994-1996, 70K ish
T56 Camaro SS, 2002, 2K miles
G80 Buick Turbo GN 3.42(so far) POSI rear end, 1987, rebuilt
Pontiac Firebird WS6 everything between the front two wheels, 1998, 60K
Partial roll cage throughout rear to support spring purges and unibody
Fuel Cell and all new lines throughout car for everything.

Budget: $4000-$4500 max

Any questions? :) :) :)

Stoneage_Caddy
02-08-04, 05:47 PM
"T56 Camaro SS, 2002, 2K miles"

that would make me think your useing the northstar in a longitiuidal application , im also thinking its going to end up a franken-prix , sure got my interest nonetheless

Night Wolf
02-08-04, 06:56 PM
I think this has been said already, but the manual in the Alero, like the Grand Am, is only out with the 4cyl.... the 3400 V6 is auto-only

FieroAddiction.com is a good site w/ Fiero swaps, and people have mated the 5speed w/ N* in them....

customGTP
02-08-04, 07:04 PM
between that and the GN rear end, yes, you are right Stoneage_Caddy :)

Fiero STS
02-09-04, 08:32 AM
Try this link I think it has all the info on GM front drive manual transmissions.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/036306.html

Here is some info on the flywheel

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/037130.html

customGTP
02-12-04, 01:49 AM
ttt
Anyone have any more info on RWD manual configurations to a N*?

Stoneage_Caddy
02-12-04, 02:34 PM
i belive there is a kit to fit them to a porsche tranny and place them in a dune buggy , cant seem to find the link right now

xlr uses it in a rear drive fashion but the tranny is mouted in the rear and labeld a transaxel , i think the powershaft runs straght off the flywheel to where i think the torqueverter is (in the rear on the nose of the transaxel)

Fiero STS
02-12-04, 03:53 PM
For rear wheel use an S10 belhousing, then any trans that will bolt to it.

customGTP
02-13-04, 01:31 AM
cool picked up an old V6 firebird bell. Just looking for a good trans now

Fiero STS
02-13-04, 08:02 AM
You will need to modify the bellhousing to clear the starter nose and relocate one bolt hole. Go to Cadillac Hotrod Fabricators site I think they still have pics of the mods.