: need a new motor!



cadillac00
11-09-12, 10:28 PM
Where can I buy a new/used northstar for my 2001 Cadillac dts VIN 9 for a fair price with low mileage I really need it asap my HG has failed. I live in st.louis if that's any help but if they can ship that's great. I looked on Ebay but it's all junk.

Ranger
11-09-12, 10:35 PM
Why not fix the one you have? A used motor is a roll of the dice. You may suffer another HG failure in the future.

cadillac00
11-09-12, 10:39 PM
It costs more to rebuild the motor then it does to just get a used one

98eldo32v
11-09-12, 11:56 PM
A used one will be a little less, but you don't know the history per se' of that motor and all you're doing is setting yourself up for another headgasket failure.

It's your call.......

beebop01
11-10-12, 09:27 AM
contact me I am located in Indianapolis, IN I have a overhaul/ repair ad on EBAY

stoveguyy
11-10-12, 11:59 AM
are you going to remove motor or pay someone to do it? you drop subframe and remove motor from assy. swap in different motor. and now you need to get rid of old motor. or pull heads and install serts or studs. so you need sert kit or whatever. this all takes time. might take several days. does shop want to tie up bay for 2-3 days? most say fixing motor is way to go since you dont end up with core parts. most used motors have accessories attached. p/s, alt, a/c and so on.

vincentm
11-10-12, 11:34 PM
This thread is full of fail...

basscatt
11-11-12, 12:07 AM
It costs more to rebuild the motor then it does to just get a used one

that may be true - but
what happens if the "new" motor develops the head gasket problem
500 miles after having it installed -

if you get a "guarantee" on the used motor -
the supplier might send you another motor -
but you still have to pay to have the engines swapped - again -

stoveguyy
11-11-12, 09:36 AM
"fail" as in lots of money? Buy a remaned motor and have it installed. Pretty good odds of success. Properly repair existing block? Also good odds. Use car-parts.com to find motors in ur area. All yards I know use it to find parts. I do too. It lists remaned and used motors.

cadillac00
11-11-12, 11:31 AM
What I was thinking about doing is rebuilding my motor and getting it studded. Anyone know of any good stud kits? And is this a good idea

Submariner409
11-11-12, 11:35 AM
Studs and/or proper inserts are absolutely necessary to repair/strengthen all 20 cylinder block head bolt holes. Never try to use the old bolts and existing hole threads when doing a top overhaul on a Northstar.

Either talk to Tim Carroll at www.carrollcustomcadillac.com (http://www.carrollcustomcadillac.com)

or take a look at the NS300L inserts from www.huhnsolutions.com (http://www.huhnsolutions.com) - they can be used with either a new set of GM head bolts or a set of ARP studs. www.arp-bolts.com


(http://www.arp-bolts.com)

Ranger
11-11-12, 12:17 PM
No need to "rebuild" the motor. All it needs is inserts or studs and new HG's.

Manic Mechanic
11-11-12, 12:43 PM
In studs vs. inserts w/bolts the main difference is that inserts can be installed with the engine in the car. To install the rear head over studs the engine needs to be removed. One way is a lot of work the other is a lot of work to the forth power.

Vernon

cadillac00
11-11-12, 07:43 PM
Is there a difference between studs and inserts?

Manic Mechanic
11-11-12, 09:36 PM
Yes, big difference in the technique to install the heads with the two choices with some difference in effectiveness.

Inserts repair the hole with a over-sized threaded steel sleeve so that you can set the head back on and then run new factory style bolts down through the head bolt holes in the now positioned head and thread them tight into the sleeves that are threaded into the block themselves. Just like before with repaired bolt holes in the block to hold the bolts.

Studs are like long bolts but with threads on both ends and no head. The bottom end threads into a new over-sized hole in the block with enough bolt end sticking above the surface to slide the heads straight down over them while they stick up. When the head is all the way down on the studs a little bit of each stud is sticking out of the bolt holes of the head, this is where you install a washer and nut onto it and tighten it down to clamp the head down to the engine.

The big difference is that when the engine is in the car the back head sits close to the windshield and firewall. You can fit the head in there and then run bolts down through the holes but you can't put studs in the block and then fit the head over them and then down. The head will hit the car before the holes line up with the top of the studs, so the engine has to be out for studs so there's room to slide the head down over them on the back side.

So why studs? They are actually a stronger clamp device and the tensile strain is spread better, also the threads in the block don't have to be loaded and twisted at the same time. Strongest, most durable, and accurate head clamping repair. Many of these engines have oil leaks down low that require engine removal to address so they get pulled for a reseal at the same time making studding an attractive option.

So why bolts? They work fine for all but the most aggressive driver who needs all the strength possible (like me, I tear stuff up). A properly inserted and bolted head seal is stronger than it was new. You can drill out the block and install the inserts with the block still in the car meaning only the upper engine components have to be removed for the repair. Fine if there's no oil leaks or you can't deal with them anyway. On this car that saves a lot of work and time and leaves the car on wheels while the engine is apart. Less labor time when you're paying a bill for the work.

Vernon

Ranger
11-11-12, 09:48 PM
I'm sure you know what a stud looks like so I won't bother.

Insert

http://www.timesert.com/images/index/image003.gif http://www.huhnsolutions.com/inserts.JPG

Submariner409
11-11-12, 10:17 PM
Is there a difference between studs and inserts?

Obviously you never opened the links in Post #11.

cadillac00
11-11-12, 10:38 PM
I'm going with studs sounds like a better fix. here's a kit I found on Ebay is it a good deal?

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=330820454642&index=0&nav=SEARCH&nid=15097228588

And how much will labor run me for the studs and HG repair?

Manic Mechanic
11-11-12, 11:13 PM
You're doing it wrong.

Vernon

cadillac00
11-12-12, 12:05 AM
You're doing it wrong.

Vernon

How so?

beebop01
11-12-12, 09:04 AM
I was at a local Cadillac dealer located in Indianapolis and they received 2 bad used motors from LKQ (headgaskets.) I have been using bolts and inserts since
1993 and have had no issues, its all on how the block is prepped and inserts are installed :)

V-swagon
11-12-12, 11:10 AM
I rebuilt my N* in my 02 DTS almost 2 years ago and I time serted my block and used ARP studs and haven't had a problem with the head gaskets. I also decked the block and heads to make sure they were flat. I also studded the bottom end with ARP studs. Eagle rod, forged pistons, and ported heads. My only issue I had was the secondary chain tensioner failed twice due to aftermarket defect.

Ranger
11-12-12, 11:34 AM
And how much will labor run me for the studs and HG repair?
Depends on where you are and who does it. Anywhere from $2000 - $4000.

Ranger
11-12-12, 11:34 AM
And how much will labor run me for the studs and HG repair?
Depends on where you are and who does it. Anywhere from $2000 - $4000.

Manic Mechanic
11-12-12, 11:40 AM
How so?

This:

I time serted my block and used ARP studs and haven't had a problem with the head gaskets.

If you use the ARP studs you found which have the same size threads as the factory head bolts on a damaged thread block (or a still good one that you do not want to strip in the future) you have to install the inserts first, then stud it with the smaller ARP kit. Double cost and work to accomplish the same end result.

If you use the stud kit from Carrol Custom Cadillac that Sub linked to in post #11 or if you can get Jake at N* performance to ship you his then you only have to rethread the block and install the studs directly to it. Those come with oversized base threads that fit a drilled and tapped block hole like the inserts do. Kill's two birds with one stone.

Vernon

----------


My only issue I had was the secondary chain tensioner failed twice due to aftermarket defect.

V-swagon, could you name the brand(s) of chain tensioner you had problems with? I'm about to replace mine with an aftermarket kit. Mines DNJ, AKA Rock Products. And was your failure the hydraulic part or one of the shoes/guides?

Vernon

Ranger
11-12-12, 11:44 AM
If you use the ARP studs you found which have the same size threads as the factory head bolts on a damaged thread block (or a still good one that you do not want to strip in the future) you have to install the inserts first, then stud it with the smaller ARP kit. Double cost and work to accomplish the same end result.

:yeah: Inserts AND studs makes no sense to me.

bigtone
11-12-12, 04:57 PM
Maybe I'm biased because I've done 2 HG replacements with inserts, but based on the track record of inserts, especially Norm's, I really see no reason to stud a stock engine for everyday use. I cannot argue that studs are not better, but most of these cars with failing HG's are 10+ years old, how good is good enough?

V-swagon
11-12-12, 05:51 PM
This:

If you use the ARP studs you found which have the same size threads as the factory head bolts on a damaged thread block (or a still good one that you do not want to strip in the future) you have to install the inserts first, then stud it with the smaller ARP kit. Double cost and work to accomplish the same end result.

If you use the stud kit from Carrol Custom Cadillac that Sub linked to in post #11 or if you can get Jake at N* performance to ship you his then you only have to rethread the block and install the studs directly to it. Those come with oversized base threads that fit a drilled and tapped block hole like the inserts do. Kill's two birds with one stone.

Vernon

----------



V-swagon, could you name the brand(s) of chain tensioner you had problems with? I'm about to replace mine with an aftermarket kit. Mines DNJ, AKA Rock Products. And was your failure the hydraulic part or one of the shoes/guides?

Vernon

Since I did all my own machine work, I was just out time and cost of ARP studs. I did time sert the block back to the factory size threads. I only had one hole that was kind of bad but wasn't the root cause of my head gasket failure. I had a breach at the fire ring of the gasket which began to leak. I had pistons replaced at 70k miles at the dealership due to oil consumption and I think that might have lead to the it.

As far as the timing chain parts, I bought Cloyes parts. I had about 2k miles on the rebuild and I had the secondary chain jump. When I took it apart, the rollers on that chain were smaller than the primary chain. It was sloppy on the gears, wiped out the chain guide shoe and over extended the tensioner. Got new parts, drove it a day, and the tensioner collapsed on the same side. Replaced with stock parts, no problems. I talked to Cadillac Hot Rod Fabrication in California, and he just uses factory tensioners, chains, and guides when he builds his engines.

stoveguyy
11-13-12, 05:40 PM
v-swagon. did the dealer insert the block when they pulled heads to replace pistons?

V-swagon
11-13-12, 07:44 PM
v-swagon. did the dealer insert the block when they pulled heads to replace pistons?

I don't think they did the time serts when they replaced the pistons. I don't recall seeing any in the block when I did them.

Submariner409
11-14-12, 09:37 AM
If the block had been TimeSerted or even (horrors !!!) Helicoiled you would have known it the instant the drill hit the bolt hole.

stoveguyy
11-14-12, 12:07 PM
I did my heads 5yrs ago. My trans died last month and I was bummed about fixing it. 2 major repairs totally bites on 1 car. I really feel for folks who pull their motors several times. It's not like we are top fuel mechanics tearing down motors between runs.

cadillac00
11-14-12, 07:45 PM
Sorry I haven't responded sooner its been a rough week someone broke my rear windshield and damaged my trunk and rear speaker with a brick. But I'm going to stud my motor instead of replacing it

CadillacLuke24
11-15-12, 01:11 AM
Vandals. :nono: I hate them.

Good luck on studding the block! You will not be disappointed! :yup: