I decided it was time to get the ball rollin'.
I wanted to go with the KB pistons but with the 76cc heads, the motor would have been at 10:1......a little more than I wanted. The shop has a set of "552" heads which are 120cc heads. Those heads and a set of KB pistons should put my compression at around 9:1. I like the sound of that a lot more.
It'll be, pretty much, a stock build with exception of the pistons and the MTS MT-10 cam (which I ordered today).
Puts me one step closer to making lotsa noise and thick white tire smoke.
:burn:

Sounds good..

Get bigger intake valves and inexpensive bowl work and it will be the best performance mod you make. Except maybe rear gears better than the cam and intake which are good mods.

"Extra" head work isn't in the budget right now.....maybe in a year or so.
I talked to Al and told him what I was going to be doing with the truck and that is what he recommended. We'll see how it runs when I get it back and in the truck.
:burn: :spin: :thumbsup:

Update:
It's been a while since I posted any info on the build......thought I'd give y'all the latest.

A few things have changed in the 500 build.

First.....there was a mix-up with my cam. They sent the VT10 instead of the MT10 I ordered. Al (at MTS) offered to fix the problem and send the correct cam out the next day. I asked him what the difference was between the two. He told me and I decided to keep the VT10. The VT10 is an Erson cam and the MT10 is a Comp cam. The MT10 has a high lift, short duration. The VT10 has a longer duration and less lift. He said they both do the same thing, they just have different ways of doing it.

The block was bored .060 over and decked (not sure how much) and the crank ground .010.

I had them tap the oil galleys at both ends of the block and also in the lifter valley for threaded plugs (per the "Big Inch" book).

The block was drilled and tapped (just under the thermostat) for a heater hose fitting. Now I don't have to worry about clearance issues with the original fitting at the rear of the right head.

I went to the machine shop today. The short block is finished. Now they have to do the heads.

I DID decide to have a little porting done and bigger valves installed. I figured the cost will be minimal concidering what the total build was going to cost.

Friday I ordered the shaft rocker set-up, Edelbrock intake, Pertronix distributor conversion/coil, MSD 8.5mm plug wires and a few other odds and ends.

That's where it stands now. Hopefully I'll have it back in the next few weeks (the machine shop doesn't work very fast :rolleyes: ).

Engine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=2436189968#ebayphotohosting), what i found - maybe you get some ideas?

Engine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=2436189968#ebayphotohosting), what i found - maybe you get some ideas?
I seen that. Nice motor but a little too radical for me. That's pretty much and all out race motor. It would be fun to play with though.:spin:

Are you taking pictures along the way? I'd also be really curious to know about how much money the rebuild cost you, if you don't mind adding it up. ;) I know that hurts a bit sometimes! :D

Thanks for the updates! Looking forward to you getting it in your truck! :)

Are you taking pictures along the way? I'd also be really curious to know about how much money the rebuild cost you, if you don't mind adding it up. ;) I know that hurts a bit sometimes! :D

Thanks for the updates! Looking forward to you getting it in your truck! :)

Yeah how much is this costin ya Mr. Hicks?

I didn't even think about getting pictures of the build until yesterday. When I got to the machine shop, I found that the short block was already done. He's been taking his sweet time getting everything done but he gets busy when I decide I want pictures. Oh well......I should have thought of it sooner.
I've gotta go back to take them the shaft rockers when they come in. I'll take my camera with me and get some pics.
As for the cost......I'll let you know when it's all done. Just in the bottom end (not including the drilling and tapping) I've got almost $2200.:eek:

I got a few pictures of the short block today. The picture of the top of the motor didn't turn out to well. The motor was on a stand and I didn't want to try to turn it over so I just stuck the camera under the motor to take the pic.
Nothing has been done to the heads......so I didn't take any pictures of them.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image002-med.jpg
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image006-med.jpg
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image004-med.jpg

(per the "Big Inch" book).

What's that book called and more important, where can I get a copy? MTS? I'd email Al and ask but I can't remember what its called.

What's that book called and more important, where can I get a copy? MTS? I'd email Al and ask but I can't remember what its called.

So what valve size are you going with for your lower compression engine ?

So what valve size are you going with for your lower compression engine ?
To be honest......I don't know the exact size. Bigger than stock is all I know.
I'll have to ask the next time I talk to him.
How big are the stock valves?

What's that book called and more important, where can I get a copy? MTS? I'd email Al and ask but I can't remember what its called.

Uh lux? *raises hand*

Uh lux? *raises hand*
Sorry......I meant to reply to this but forgot. :o
The book is called Big Inch Cadillac and it's written by Doc Frohmader.
Yes, MTS sells it. I believe it's $22.95....plus shipping (tax).

Thanks. Think it's worth it to get it?

Thanks. Think it's worth it to get it?
I think so.
It covers the build up of a stroker motor, primarily but there's lots of other good info too. It has a section in the back that tells (what he thinks) is the proper way to re-build a Q-Jet. I say "what he thinks" because I know nothing about re-building one and can't refute anything he says.
Over-all, I think it's a good book.
Just for the record.....I'm not trying to squeeze every last ounce of power out of this motor.......although I might try that with the next one. I was just looking to build a well rounded street motor. This is, after all, going in a heavy, non aerodynamic, light assed (read: traction impaired....even though it does have limited slip) Chevy truck. I'm sure there is more power in this motor than the stock suspension could ever put to the street.
I am building this particular motor for 1) the awesome amounts of torque they make, and 2) to be different from everyone else. I could have built the 350 that was in the truck but that's what everyone else does. That would have also saved me LOTS of money but I would have had a motor just like the ones that are in most of the street rods on the street. I have nothing against Chevy motors.....or any others. I just wanted something different.
I asked Al Betker (MTS owner) what his estimate was for power out of this motor. He said that the way it's set up, horsepower should be around 425 and torque around 575. Not too shabby for a MILD motor that most people think are good for nothing but a boat anchor. :cool:

Lux

Good to see you are making progress. Wow 60 over that would be a 514. At a bore of 4.360 that will easily unshroud, or flow some 2.19 intake valves. Even just a bowl blend to match the valves will go a long way and be money well spent. JWalker could give you excellent advice with regards to what to tell your head porter/machine shop about the heads and valves. Better than what is in that book and I am not knocking the book. Like it or not your shop is likely without telling you using your parts to experiment on as they probably don't have hands on experience with performance Cads. I am not commiting Mr Walker to share his time and experience only saying he is in the no. ;)

At this level headers which I believe you can buy ready made for your motor and truck would also be money well spent. I say this with full understanding of the fact that your goals are moderate performance. And that Christmas is coming. ;) You would get a good performance return for your dollar. Torque horsepower and mileage as it is now by far the biggest cork in your system.

JWalker if you read this and have the time I would love to hear about your build up of the Bu er Boo. And where other than Al's board do you talk online about big Cads and racing?

PS For the guy who asked. Starting with nothing and including everything but the value of my time. All parts, machine work, balancing, porting, core, misc. Comparing part for part to the Chev crate 502ci 502hp delux assembly which sells for $7,000 I have $3,512 in mine. I have 509ci expect to make 509hp & 575tq. I know it will not dyno exact but neither would the 502.

Well even though I won't have any money for awhile, I'm still planning on what I'm going to do to my 500. I might just get that book to see what Doc Frohmader has done. If anyone else has 500 info or specs on a 500 build up, I need it.

Well even though I won't have any money for awhile, I'm still planning on what I'm going to do to my 500. I might just get that book to see what Doc Frohmader has done. If anyone else has 500 info or specs on a 500 build up, I need it.
If you haven't seen them yet, there are magazine articles of two different Caddy builds in the photo section of this site.

Lux

Good to see you are making progress. Wow 60 over that would be a 514. At a bore of 4.360 that will easily unshroud, or flow some 2.19 intake valves. Even just a bowl blend to match the valves will go a long way and be money well spent. JWalker could give you excellent advice with regards to what to tell your head porter/machine shop about the heads and valves. Better than what is in that book and I am not knocking the book. Like it or not your shop is likely without telling you using your parts to experiment on as they probably don't have hands on experience with performance Cads. I am not commiting Mr Walker to share his time and experience only saying he is in the no. ;)

At this level headers which I believe you can buy ready made for your motor and truck would also be money well spent. I say this with full understanding of the fact that your goals are moderate performance. And that Christmas is coming. ;) You would get a good performance return for your dollar. Torque horsepower and mileage as it is now by far the biggest cork in your system.

JWalker if you read this and have the time I would love to hear about your build up of the Bu er Boo. And where other than Al's board do you talk online about big Cads and racing?

PS For the guy who asked. Starting with nothing and including everything but the value of my time. All parts, machine work, balancing, porting, core, misc. Comparing part for part to the Chev crate 502ci 502hp delux assembly which sells for $7,000 I have $3,512 in mine. I have 509ci expect to make 509hp & 575tq. I know it will not dyno exact but neither would the 502.

As far as im concerned vern is 100% right
A mild port job and bigger valves is exactly what you need
headers are a must and converting a set of bbc headers is easy
the build on my engine is slow going
it is a 545 incher with aluminum heads and the new bulldog intake
were still squeezing cfm out of the heads and ill let everyone know what we get when done
more to follow and if you want more info ,vern and others e-mail me...later

So what valve size are you going with for your lower compression engine ?
I talked to they guy at the machine shop today. The valves going into the motor will be: 2.15" intakes and 1.687" exhaust.
Do you think that should work well with the mild set-up of the motor? Again, remember, I'm not looking to squeeze every last bit of power out of the motor.
He was originally going to keep the stock exhaust size and bump the intakes to 2.080. He said he was trying to save me a few dollars. I told him there was no need for that now. :)

I talked to they guy at the machine shop today. The valves going into the motor will be: 2.15" intakes and 1.687" exhaust.
Do you think that should work well with the mild set-up of the motor? Again, remember, I'm not looking to squeeze every last bit of power out of the motor.
He was originally going to keep the stock exhaust size and bump the intakes to 2.080. He said he was trying to save me a few dollars. I told him there was no need for that now. :)

Good choice
as long as he opens up the ports it should run ok even with the low compression and narrow lc on the cam your using
i realize that your not SQUEEZING every last bit of power out of it but get what you pay for
doing the bigger valves was a %100 great idea
are you having him mill the heads a bit to increase the compression ?
prolly should and if you stay under .030 you SHOULDENT have to do any intake work
sounds like its coming along
later JW

Good choice
as long as he opens up the ports it should run ok even with the low compression and narrow lc on the cam your using
i realize that your not SQUEEZING every last bit of power out of it but get what you pay for
doing the bigger valves was a %100 great idea
are you having him mill the heads a bit to increase the compression ?
prolly should and if you stay under .030 you SHOULDENT have to do any intake work
sounds like its coming along
later JW
JW,
Thanks for your reply...
The heads are going to be milled enough to clean them up. I'm not sure how much it's going to take.
if you stay under .030 you SHOULDENT have to do any intake work
Intake work as far as......? I'm not sure what you mean here.
He (the machine shop) also told me about a set of roller rockers that he came across. I'll post some pictures of them in another thread. Take a look and tell me whos you think they are and what they're worth. He wants to get rid of them and a used Edelbrock intake.

JW,
Thanks for your reply...
The heads are going to be milled enough to clean them up. I'm not sure how much it's going to take.

Intake work as far as......? I'm not sure what you mean here.
He (the machine shop) also told me about a set of roller rockers that he came across. I'll post some pictures of them in another thread. Take a look and tell me whos you think they are and what they're worth. He wants to get rid of them and a used Edelbrock intake.


milling the mounting face of the intake to make it fit after milling the heads
for what your doing i would recommend that you dont run roller rockers
1 reason is cost
another is they wont make that much more power and most of the systems made for the cadillac arent really made for the street
I know of a couple of shaft systems that use OEM type rockers that would double the reliability and they would cost quite a bit less
id be happy to look at what your guy came up with
as far as the edelbrock goes
its better than a stock stock intake for sure and its a few lbs off the nose and they dont look too bad
ilater JW

milling the mounting face of the intake to make it fit after milling the heads
for what your doing i would recommend that you dont run roller rockers
1 reason is cost
another is they wont make that much more power and most of the systems made for the cadillac arent really made for the street
I know of a couple of shaft systems that use OEM type rockers that would double the reliability and they would cost quite a bit less
id be happy to look at what your guy came up with
as far as the edelbrock goes
its better than a stock stock intake for sure and its a few lbs off the nose and they dont look too bad
ilater JW
I understand now what you mean about the intake now. :o I'm a little slow sometimes. ;)
I wasn't planning on using the rollers on my motor. I might be able to make a little money though. :D

I have to ask something about the compression ratio, and I don't know the answer, I am just asking.
You said the 120cc headds are 9:1 and the 76cc heads are 10:1. Is that with the same pistons? That sounds too close if the pistons are the same. The 120's are more than half again bigger than the 76's.This would seem like it would drop it to at least 8:1.

Let me know if I'm in left field.

I have to ask something about the compression ratio, and I don't know the answer, I am just asking.
You said the 120cc headds are 9:1 and the 76cc heads are 10:1. Is that with the same pistons? That sounds too close if the pistons are the same. The 120's are more than half again bigger than the 76's.This would seem like it would drop it to at least 8:1.

Let me know if I'm in left field.

a 120 cc headed engine can be as little as 7.9-1 depending on deck height and the pistons you use
with the kb hyper pistons for the 76 cc heads you could have right at 10-1
you can zero deck a 120 cc headed engine with flat tops and mill about .050 off the head and have around 9.4 to 9.5 -1
if you run 76cc heads with a flat top piston with no dish youll have about 12-1 or more
nothing complicated about it just a few choices as far as pistons go
also have to take into account gasket thickness

The compression ratios are correct with the KB hypereutectic pistons: 9:1 for the 120 cc heads and 10:1 for the 76 cc heads. Afterall, the bore is 4.360". I will be using the 76 cc (older) heads to make 10:1 compression and run a MTS MT15 cam with an Edelbrock Performer and 2.19/1.88 intake/exhaust valves in ported heads. I'm looking for 500 hp/600 ft.lbs. The engine will be bored .050" over (512) and use BB Chevy pistons on 7" Olds 425 forged rods. I already have a Holley Pro-Jection system. Based on the performance improvement of the Holley system on my stock 500, and what I have read, my hp/torque ratings should be realistic.

I have to ask something about the compression ratio, and I don't know the answer, I am just asking.
You said the 120cc headds are 9:1 and the 76cc heads are 10:1. Is that with the same pistons? That sounds too close if the pistons are the same. The 120's are more than half again bigger than the 76's.This would seem like it would drop it to at least 8:1.

Let me know if I'm in left field.

Hicks,
Loved the picks of the engine you posted on this board. While I agree you could have built up a SBC for less, it will not run as smooth, long or as good as the Cad or make anywhere near the torque. Your BIGGEST problem will be traction.

I talked to they guy at the machine shop today. The valves going into the motor will be: 2.15" intakes and 1.687" exhaust.
Do you think that should work well with the mild set-up of the motor? Again, remember, I'm not looking to squeeze every last bit of power out of the motor.
He was originally going to keep the stock exhaust size and bump the intakes to 2.080. He said he was trying to save me a few dollars. I told him there was no need for that now. :)

you might wanna reconsider your cam selection for a fuel injected engine
and your horsepower /torque figures are a little high
I seriously doubt that youll pull more than 430-440 altho im sure it will make a pile of torque...as cadillac always do
you might wanna consider an olds 403 piston instead of the glass KB pistons
speed pro has a forging that works really well for what your doing
put em about .007 in the hole and it comes out to around 9.5-1 and thats a bunch friendlier on pumpgas
later JW

The valves are in!!
Here's what they look like......
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image001-med.jpg
and
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image0021-med.jpg

There are a few more pictures in my gallery in the photo section.

The valves are in!!
Here's what they look like......
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image001-med.jpg
and
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image0021-med.jpg

There are a few more pictures in my gallery in the photo section.
Are those heads finished ?
If it were me id blend the bowl and guide together...not to smooth it but to give it a more gradual radius
you could do both heads in about an hour and pick up alot of USEABLE airflow
something else is
were the guides loose?
seen you have bronze guides in it
the valves you used.....the SI's are usually a bit oversize and every head ive put those particular valves in required the guides to be honed.
to sum it up im not knocking the work that was done just saying there is more you can do with what you have
they look good as far as what was done
later JW

Good luck on your 500 Lux! You might want to make sure that motor has as much compression as you can get away with if you are considering racing it.... It makes much more power with higher compression and I would use the 76CC heads for sure. It will definatly idle better with more compression.


This quote below is pretty much the same engine combo I have in my Fleetwood hot rod. Block and heads built by Al and the cam is an MTS custom Al made which is really a Comp cam, ground for MTS on his specs.... I just have a bit more compression than 10:1, and I wish I would have gone with more as that is what makes these motors really run. If I had to do it a again it would be 13:1. The compression takes the lope out of the cam and increases the HP an throttle response like nothing else and actually makes the engine quite a bit better idle and tamer in all aspects except when you floor it. Of course you have better have a mixture of fuel for it or you will kill it on detonation, but its a strong contender that will give the 8000 over the counter alloy head GM 502/540 a run for its money... My engine was not much cheaper than this though, and if my car was not a cadillac, I would have used a 502 as it makes more since as its new and many things are avalible for it... But a cad needs to stay a cad and my MTS 500 is a hell of an engine overall! I would imagine that if it were put in a 3000LB vehicle, you would have a 10 second car that had no reliability, idle or typical aftermarket BS issues as most of us long time hot rodders are so familiar with.... But in my 4000LB, fully loaded, all accessory working car, it runs high 12's with a Q-jet and 3:08 gears and 500 manafolds.... Its pretty amazing at that and its just as drivable as it was brand new and probably more reliable as it cooled to the max with coolers on everything.

You will definatly get your HP ratings with what you quoted at the flywheel, but if you are looking to run hard and have those ratings, that pro-jection is not all its cracked up to be in my hard knock experience with it. I have never had in on a cad, but on mega built 406 SBC in one of my sleeper projects... the Holley Pro-Jection is almost 70HP real world/rear wheel dyno HP shy of what a modded 3310 900CFM did. It never idled as good as the carb... The AC kick up just did not work and made for a problemed idle with the AC on (AC is a must for all hot rods in my book!), there was always some quirk with the projection, and the economy was really not that great for its quirks and lack of power compared to a carb. I was so pumped up when the pro-jection came out many years ago as it is a novel idea and I and gave it every opportunity I could.. Even had Holley rework the firmware.... Its just not that good for HP... Frankly its not good for much as the carb offers so much more for so much less without the quirks...

500 CID Home Page (http://www.mcsmk8.com/cadillacs/mycads.htm)

http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/80CAD-11.JPG


The compression ratios are correct with the KB hypereutectic pistons: 9:1 for the 120 cc heads and 10:1 for the 76 cc heads. Afterall, the bore is 4.360". I will be using the 76 cc (older) heads to make 10:1 compression and run a MTS MT15 cam with an Edelbrock Performer and 2.19/1.88 intake/exhaust valves in ported heads. I'm looking for 500 hp/600 ft.lbs. The engine will be bored .050" over (512) and use BB Chevy pistons on 7" Olds 425 forged rods. I already have a Holley Pro-Jection system. Based on the performance improvement of the Holley system on my stock 500, and what I have read, my hp/torque ratings should be realistic.

Good luck on your 500 Lux! You might want to make sure that motor has as much compression as you can get away with if you are considering racing it.... It makes much more power with higher compression and I would use the 76CC heads for sure. It will definatly idle better with more compression.


This quote below is pretty much the same engine combo I have in my Fleetwood hot rod. Block and heads built by Al and the cam is an MTS custom Al made which is really a Comp cam, ground for MTS on his specs.... I just have a bit more compression than 10:1, and I wish I would have gone with more as that is what makes these motors really run. If I had to do it a again it would be 13:1. The compression takes the lope out of the cam and increases the HP an throttle response like nothing else and actually makes the engine quite a bit better idle and tamer in all aspects except when you floor it. Of course you have better have a mixture of fuel for it or you will kill it on detonation, but its a strong contender that will give the 8000 over the counter alloy head GM 502/540 a run for its money... My engine was not much cheaper than this though, and if my car was not a cadillac, I would have used a 502 as it makes more since as its new and many things are avalible for it... But a cad needs to stay a cad and my MTS 500 is a hell of an engine overall! I would imagine that if it were put in a 3000LB vehicle, you would have a 10 second car that had no reliability, idle or typical aftermarket BS issues as most of us long time hot rodders are so familiar with.... But in my 4000LB, fully loaded, all accessory working car, it runs high 12's with a Q-jet and 3:08 gears and 500 manafolds.... Its pretty amazing at that and its just as drivable as it was brand new and probably more reliable as it cooled to the max with coolers on everything.

You will definatly get your HP ratings with what you quoted at the flywheel, but if you are looking to run hard and have those ratings, that pro-jection is not all its cracked up to be in my hard knock experience with it. I have never had in on a cad, but on mega built 406 SBC in one of my sleeper projects... the Holley Pro-Jection is almost 70HP real world/rear wheel dyno HP shy of what a modded 3310 900CFM did. It never idled as good as the carb... The AC kick up just did not work and made for a problemed idle with the AC on (AC is a must for all hot rods in my book!), there was always some quirk with the projection, and the economy was really not that great for its quirks and lack of power compared to a carb. I was so pumped up when the pro-jection came out many years ago as it is a novel idea and I and gave it every opportunity I could.. Even had Holley rework the firmware.... Its just not that good for HP... Frankly its not good for much as the carb offers so much more for so much less without the quirks...

500 CID Home Page (http://www.mcsmk8.com/cadillacs/mycads.htm)

http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/80CAD-11.JPG
and worse yet it makes the thing octane sensative
as far as the tbi goes....it wont work with a cam with big seat timing
DO NOT EVER COMPARE A SBC TO A CADILLAC
nothing ever works the same as it will on a cadillac
going from 10-1 to 13-1 with the cam you have would do little but make you buy racing gasoline
lux haulers engine will run on 89-90 octane
im thinking that was his intent

Thanks for the replies.
The heads are bascially finished UNLESS, I decide to have him do more. I will consider the blending of the bowl and guide though.

Having a motor built is new territory for me and a performance build on a Caddy motor is new to the machinist also.

As JWalker mentioned, my intentions were to keep the compression kinda 'middle of the road'. High enough to gain me a little power but low enough to not have problems with detonation on pump gas. The compression shouldn't be much over 9:1.....there was only enough material removed from the surfaces to 'clean them up'.

I might run back out to Wakeman today and have another quick look at the heads and make some final decisions.

Thanks again!!

BTW.....JWalker,
I believe the guides were honed for the valve stems.

I talked to Chuck this evening and asked him about the blending. He said that he didn't have any problem doing it as long as I didn't have any problem paying for it. :eek: :rolleyes2
I'm gunna stop in and see him tomorrow (Sunday).
He's also trying to get me to run it on their dyno.........$$$
It would be cool to have/see the numbers and have the motor basically ready to bolt in and go, I'm not sure I want to pay for all of that.
Either he or I would have to come up with headers and a bellhousing. I don't want to spend the money on that kind of stuff for one dyno run......I'll have to see what he says.

BTW.....JWalker,
I believe the guides were honed for the valve stems.

I talked to Chuck this evening and asked him about the blending. He said that he didn't have any problem doing it as long as I didn't have any problem paying for it. :eek: :rolleyes2
I'm gunna stop in and see him tomorrow (Sunday).
He's also trying to get me to run it on their dyno.........$$$
It would be cool to have/see the numbers and have the motor basically ready to bolt in and go, I'm not sure I want to pay for all of that.
Either he or I would have to come up with headers and a bellhousing. I don't want to spend the money on that kind of stuff for one dyno run......I'll have to see what he says.

I've seen some cheap headers on ebay. It looks like you're coming along well, Lux. Good luck with that.

Sorry to open my big uneducated mouth J walker.... Sounds like you got a handle on everthing by your SCREAMING reply... I am really sorry I said anything and will never offer any of my previous experience to things to are all too familiar with to you as you seem to have taken a major offense to it...
Please forgive me.


But for Lux Hauler........

From what I have seen over my 30 few years of working on cars, and this applied to BOP and Cadillac Big Blocks, you will NEVER get any of them out of the low 300HP range without some darn good compression..... You can trick the heads, you can put headers, you can cam em up... Whatever you want to do... You are just going to be a low 300HP engine.... The actual wheel HP is going to be in the 200's or even less.

Since we cannot use a chevy to compare compression VS HP as so mentioned above.....Take for example the 70 eldo motor...... Does the fact it has a very small cam, pathatice intake, make the 70 eldo motor have to put 93 in it a waste of high octane gas???? I dont think so.... It is 10:1 and it ran pretty darn good in its day.. I used to race one all the time in my GTO.... I wont have to tell you that it would consitantly kick my 360HP tail.... I promise it will outdo a flowed, cammed and intaked 8:1 500.... Even at its overrated 400HP as the 70 HP standards were.

If you are building transportation and dont want the expence of good gas, I can completely understand and go with the lower compression for sure..... At 10:5:1 you WONT need race gas...!

But, if you are trying to race it, which by your many previous posts I am assuming is a good part of your goal, you are doing yourself a big injustice that you are going to wish you did after you put in in your vehicle and learn that its limitations are going to be lower than you probably expected...

If you need a subtle hint.. Just remeber these...... I did not write the book on this......

LT5 Chevy.... 405HP... 11:1
LT4 Chevy.... 330HP... 10.5:1
LS1 Chevy.....345HP... 10.5:1
LS6 Chevy.....425HP... 11:1
Olds W30..... 370HP... 10:5:1
Pon RAIV...... 370HP... 10:5:1
Buick Stg1.... 360HP... 10:5:1
70 Cad 500... 400HP... 10:5:1

120CC head Cad 500..... 190HP 8:1


and worse yet it makes the thing octane sensative
as far as the tbi goes....it wont work with a cam with big seat timing
DO NOT EVER COMPARE A SBC TO A CADILLAC
nothing ever works the same as it will on a cadillac
going from 10-1 to 13-1 with the cam you have would do little but make you buy racing gasoline
lux haulers engine will run on 89-90 octane
im thinking that was his intent

Ultra Slow, I think you're reading a little too much into what JWalker is saying.
I believe he was just saying that the Chevy motors can't realisticly be compaired to the BB Caddy because the motors are different in so many ways. As I'm sure you know, the Chevies like to get their power high in the RPM range and the Cadillac likes to get it down low. Compairing the two is 'apples to oranges' in reality. He also never said that a 10.5:1 compression engine would need race gas. He DID say that a 13:1 engine with that particular cam would do little but require you to buy race fuel.
JWalker is highly respected for his knowledge of performance big block Cadillac motors and what it takes to get one to make lots of power.

As for not getting out of the low 300's in horsepower from a lower compression engine, I'd have to respectfully disagree.
I talked to Al (from MTS) and told him what my engine combination was. I asked him what his power estimates were for this engine. He said that I could expect horsepower in the 430 range and torque just shy of 600. Nice numbers from a motor that should run on 89 octane gas.

My intentions for this truck/motor combo is basically a street cruiser with an occasional run down the quarter mile, no serious racing though. That was the reason I went with the mild cam and compression. I believe it'll be difficult to put all that power to the pavement in street trim anyhow.
:burn:

Sorry to open my big uneducated mouth J walker.... Sounds like you got a handle on everthing by your SCREAMING reply... I am really sorry I said anything and will never offer any of my previous experience to things to are all too familiar with to you as you seem to have taken a major offense to it...
Please forgive me.


But for Lux Hauler........

From what I have seen over my 30 few years of working on cars, and this applied to BOP and Cadillac Big Blocks, you will NEVER get any of them out of the low 300HP range without some darn good compression..... You can trick the heads, you can put headers, you can cam em up... Whatever you want to do... You are just going to be a low 300HP engine.... The actual wheel HP is going to be in the 200's or even less.

Since we cannot use a chevy to compare compression VS HP as so mentioned above.....Take for example the 70 eldo motor...... Does the fact it has a very small cam, pathatice intake, make the 70 eldo motor have to put 93 in it a waste of high octane gas???? I dont think so.... It is 10:1 and it ran pretty darn good in its day.. I used to race one all the time in my GTO.... I wont have to tell you that it would consitantly kick my 360HP tail.... I promise it will outdo a flowed, cammed and intaked 8:1 500.... Even at its overrated 400HP as the 70 HP standards were.

If you are building transportation and dont want the expence of good gas, I can completely understand and go with the lower compression for sure..... At 10:5:1 you WONT need race gas...!

But, if you are trying to race it, which by your many previous posts I am assuming is a good part of your goal, you are doing yourself a big injustice that you are going to wish you did after you put in in your vehicle and learn that its limitations are going to be lower than you probably expected...

If you need a subtle hint.. Just remeber these...... I did not write the book on this......

LT5 Chevy.... 405HP... 11:1
LT4 Chevy.... 330HP... 10.5:1
LS1 Chevy.....345HP... 10.5:1
LS6 Chevy.....425HP... 11:1
Olds W30..... 370HP... 10:5:1
Pon RAIV...... 370HP... 10:5:1
Buick Stg1.... 360HP... 10:5:1
70 Cad 500... 400HP... 10:5:1

120CC head Cad 500..... 190HP 8:1
first off
Cadillacs is what i do for a living and your 30 yrs of automotive whatever is not all centered around cadillac big blocks
your quoting stock numbers
nothing i do is stock or even close to it
ive made 488 horse with a 8.5-1 509 that runs on 90 octane quite well
and gotten 435 horse out of a junk 75 bottom end that had less than 8-1 compression
track times dont lie
while i love my somewhat expensive high compression engines i took the time to make them run without compression and it isnt that tough
you can believe what you want with your 30 yrs of expirience but im telling you that you dont need big compression to go fast
as far as 10.5-1 goes.....looking at the numbers i get from 8-1 thru 9.5-1 engines why bother ?
and thanks for the rundown of the factory horsepower numbers

and for lux hauler
I was just making a suggestion as for what to do and what works.....your engine will run just fine with what was done
just trying to add that little TORQUE INC extras that make the difference
later JW

JW......I understand you're trying to help and I appreciate it!!
drop me an email when you get a chance.....I had some computer problems and lost your email address. :rolleyes2
phicks3@centurytel.net

Here's my freshly painted Edelbrock aluminum intake.
I painted it with VHT's Cadillac dark blue engine paint. The engine will be painted to match.
You can't see them very well but there are also ARP 12-point stainless steel bolts there too. Those are the bolts that I'll be using for everything on the outside of the motor.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image0011-med.jpg

Here's my freshly painted Edelbrock aluminum intake.
I painted it with VHT's Cadillac dark blue engine paint. The engine will be painted to match.
You can't see them very well but there are also ARP 12-point stainless steel bolts there too. Those are the bolts that I'll be using for everything on the outside of the motor.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image0011-med.jpg

Awesome. Sorry if I didn't catch this earlier but what cfm carb are you putting on?

Its all good... Not discrediting anyones experience and no hard feelings JW..... You sound like you have been around the block a bit too, and I dont want to flame you or argue with your advice as it was good too.

I have been around this exact senario, exactly like Lux and that is why I chimed in on this topic. I have transplanted several 4100's RWD/FWD with 425's 500's.. Most just stock replacments for others or cars I recofigured and sold. I did build a personal 81 with a 500 that was a 9:1 motor, that uses everything near the same as the one I have put in my current 80 hot-rod. I learned the hard way on this one and that is not what I wanted to do again. I went off advice of others that had done it and it and the 9:1 motor was not a bad running motor at all. It put about 270 to the wheels and was a very strong car.

The current higher compression motor I have now has exactly 130+ more HP than that engine, runs better, does not lope like the 9:1, gets better economy than the previous, exact motor, exact intake, exact exhaust, very similar cam with the same lift/dur... The old was a 110 CL, the current is a 108CL.. The 9:1 just had 120CC heads. The currect engine will break my 80 in the high 12's, and low 13's every time, on a bad day... It has dyno'd last week at 407HP with the timing cranked up to about 38 running 108 octane. I run it more about 32 on the street and it did 384, and thats where it would be if you ran me on the street. The torque was 53? on all timing ranges.... The 9:1 500 in the 81, running the same gear/trans, virtually same motor, just with 9:1, never even got in the 13's as was really not that much of a performance machine compared to the one I have now... It also used more gas, but then again you could put 89 in it........ This is not a fluke.. Its the compression. I have seen it many times since.

In a nutshell, what I was trying to say is that if you are building a motor and even have the desire to race it, dyno it, makes some track runs, or get as much power as you can for as cheap as possible... Go with as much compression as you can get away with.... Since Lux has not completed his motor, it should not be too late... As I said, I have built pretty much the same in the past with a 9:1 engine... I will never build another 9:1 motor again unless it was going in a transplant car and performance is never was even a factor... Id stock cam and intake it and it would be a good mill and would care less about dyno #'s or anything like that.

I did many big block BOP's this way at 9:1 too on my, and customers cars as it was kind of the school of thought in the mid 80's, early 90's... These were performance guys... Some have higher compression motors now and are much happier. Today it just does not make since, because 10:5:1 on most GM big blocks BOP, or chevy and cadillac will run on 93 and offer quite a bit more power than the same 9:1 motor with no adversities, You will just have more power and throttle response. Even the Northstar is 10:1.. Most performance engines today are that too, just as the ones I quoted before.

Remeber that the 120CC head cadillac 500 really was a 190HP motor with 8:1 compression... If you did nothing but raise the compression of the 8:1 motor to 10:5:1, changing nothing else, not even the carb... I can assure you it would be at least 350HP to the flywheel... All the other things you are doing with the MTC cam, edlebrock intake, exhaust, etc are helping just perfect and will help on any compression motor.

Al at MTS is very smart, and I respect his advice. If he claims you are going to get the power you are quoting with 9:1, then thats probably what you will get at the flywheel... The simple rough formula is to knock about 50 off and that is what you will have at the wheel behind a TH400/8.5 corporate... I also am certain that if you asked Al.... he will tell you that you are leaving quite a bit of HP on the table by not making it 10:5:1 while you have the chance.

If it is too late on your motor to raise the compression, then I undersand and it will run pretty good and I dont think you will be dissappointed. It may surpries both of us!

This is all I was trying to say.

Its all good... Not discrediting anyones experience and no hard feelings JW..... You sound like you have been around the block a bit too, and I dont want to flame you or argue with your advice as it was good too.

I have been around this exact senario, exactly like Lux and that is why I chimed in on this topic. I have transplanted several 4100's RWD/FWD with 425's 500's.. Most just stock replacments for others or cars I recofigured and sold. I did build a personal 81 with a 500 that was a 9:1 motor, that uses everything near the same as the one I have put in my current 80 hot-rod. I learned the hard way on this one and that is not what I wanted to do again. I went off advice of others that had done it and it and the 9:1 motor was not a bad running motor at all. It put about 270 to the wheels and was a very strong car.

The current higher compression motor I have now has exactly 130+ more HP than that engine, runs better, does not lope like the 9:1, gets better economy than the previous, exact motor, exact intake, exact exhaust, very similar cam with the same lift/dur... The old was a 110 CL, the current is a 108CL.. The 9:1 just had 120CC heads. The currect engine will break my 80 in the high 12's, and low 13's every time, on a bad day... It has dyno'd last week at 407HP with the timing cranked up to about 38 running 108 octane. I run it more about 32 on the street and it did 384, and thats where it would be if you ran me on the street. The torque was 53? on all timing ranges.... The 9:1 500 in the 81, running the same gear/trans, virtually same motor, just with 9:1, never even got in the 13's as was really not that much of a performance machine compared to the one I have now... It also used more gas, but then again you could put 89 in it........ This is not a fluke.. Its the compression. I have seen it many times since.

In a nutshell, what I was trying to say is that if you are building a motor and even have the desire to race it, dyno it, makes some track runs, or get as much power as you can for as cheap as possible... Go with as much compression as you can get away with.... Since Lux has not completed his motor, it should not be too late... As I said, I have built pretty much the same in the past with a 9:1 engine... I will never build another 9:1 motor again unless it was going in a transplant car and performance is never was even a factor... Id stock cam and intake it and it would be a good mill and would care less about dyno #'s or anything like that.

I did many big block BOP's this way at 9:1 too on my, and customers cars as it was kind of the school of thought in the mid 80's, early 90's... These were performance guys... Some have higher compression motors now and are much happier. Today it just does not make since, because 10:5:1 on most GM big blocks BOP, or chevy and cadillac will run on 93 and offer quite a bit more power than the same 9:1 motor with no adversities, You will just have more power and throttle response. Even the Northstar is 10:1.. Most performance engines today are that too, just as the ones I quoted before.

Remeber that the 120CC head cadillac 500 really was a 190HP motor with 8:1 compression... If you did nothing but raise the compression of the 8:1 motor to 10:5:1, changing nothing else, not even the carb... I can assure you it would be at least 350HP to the flywheel... All the other things you are doing with the MTC cam, edlebrock intake, exhaust, etc are helping just perfect and will help on any compression motor.

Al at MTS is very smart, and I respect his advice. If he claims you are going to get the power you are quoting with 9:1, then thats probably what you will get at the flywheel... The simple rough formula is to knock about 50 off and that is what you will have at the wheel behind a TH400/8.5 corporate... I also am certain that if you asked Al.... he will tell you that you are leaving quite a bit of HP on the table by not making it 10:5:1 while you have the chance.

If it is too late on your motor to raise the compression, then I undersand and it will run pretty good and I dont think you will be dissappointed. It may surpries both of us!

This is all I was trying to say.
Ok.....no hard feelings
Having said that
one thing i have found especially in the cadillac world is
"you do not have to know anything to have an oppinion"
the engine that lux is doing with the cam it has in it now will not make 420 horse and id bet a paycheck on it.
Al has a tendancy to guess on what things will make and that just comes from basic lack of high performance knowledge.
This was in part one of the reasons i opened my own business was that i could not get what i wanted from anyone in the cadillac business.
on to your camshaft
what you did was basically take a camshaft that has a tendancy to be "peaky" power wise and make it worse.
i havent driven your car or seen your dyno numbers but i can tell you that any of my camshaft/head combinations will make more useable power thruout the rpm range resulting in a much quicker and more INTERESTING car to drive
there is alot more to building power than compression
airflow
port shape
cam design
tuning
are all something that we pay close attention to here and ive made more power than anyone going against the rules that have been set supposedly in stone and what i do goes against everything in the big cadillac book and what Larry K ,Al and everyone else has said works
Im glad your happy with the combination you have and if it meets or exceeds your expectations thats great
im just telling you that there is another way and this isnt anything that i "guess" about its been tested
if youd like to talk about what ive said sometime id be more than game
later...Torque INC

the oppinion comment was not directed to you or anyone on this board
just to the cadillac vendors who sell people products that "just work" as opposed to something that is designed for a particular combination
laterz

Hey JWalker...do you have a website or a catalog I can look thru?

Awesome. Sorry if I didn't catch this earlier but what cfm carb are you putting on?
I'll probably have the Q-Jet, that was on this motor originally, gone through and built for the motor.

Hey JWalker...do you have a website or a catalog I can look thru?
I am working on a website
I will never have a printed catalog of any kind(might have a PDF version at some point)
Everything i sell is pretty much the same in appearance as what other people have
if you have something in particular you wanna see i can send you a pic .
Ill have pics of my rocker setups and a few other items on the website
I sell all of bulldogs products along with my own line of cams and ported heads/intakes,adapted intakes and so on
i also have some sfi approved flexplates and harmonic dampeners for those of you wanting to go racing
if you need or want something ill be here and if you want ill furnish my phne number
later torque inc

JWalker - please make sure you read our User Agreement (http://www.cadillacforums.com/agreement.html) regarding commercial solicitation before you link to your website or post items or services for sale. You can find out about becoming a Supporting Vendor (http://cadillacforums.com/~cadillac/subscribe.html) or Advertiser (http://www.cadillacforums.com/~cadillac//advertising.html).

I do agree that Lux's engine will probably not make 420HP. Thats why I said, maybe it will surpries both of us! I am giving AL the benifit of the doubt if thats his quote, but realise that its probably a pie in the sky figure on that combo. Brings me back to the original thing that the engine will be a mild mid 300HP... Not bad, but if choice are made now, it could definatly be more.

As you have said, there are many ways to get power out of an engine other than compression... Porting, blending, honning, extrude honning, cutting edge designed camshafts, intakes, supper tuning on a wide band for optimal A/F ratios, etc..... All these things are aspects that I am sure that both you and I agree that will help an engine run more powerfull when matched to the overall configuration.... All these things are nice but many of them do reqire a bit of money and I think that is what Lux was trying to avoid.

You would not spend the time and money to do all these things above to an engine above, then make it 8:1..... That would be foolish and a waste of time and money.... It would be the same analogy as loading your car up with 4 people, adding some lead weights, then trying to race your car for its best time.... You are just holding yourself way back with 8:1..... 9:1 is better, but why still hold yourself back as the goal is apparantly to achieve more power for as little money and work as possible. 10:5:1 is about as much as you want to go to be thrifty and still use pump gas.

As far as my car... I do not have the exact cam you are thinking of.. It is a bit more agressive and there is bit more done to my engine, although it is a factory configuration overall.... So its not applicable to the argument, BUT... If I had a stock cam on a stock engine with a stock intake and stock everything.. Lets just say 1976, 8:1 190HP... I did nothing but raise the compression to 10:5:1 and did not touch a darn thing else... The motor would make more power... Period... You are correct by saying that it will bring the peak power curve down a bit, but still its more power and the vehicle would run faster overall.... Now in a perfect world, you would want to add a larger cam,etc that would compensate for the needed airflow/rpm range the compression will take advantage of... BUT again... That takes money and you are on the fringe of making easy power the hard and expensive way...

Compression is cheap power and works well.. The cadillac engine is BIG... THe glory of the cad 500 is you dont have to get over complex with it, you keep it simi-stock... The edelbrock intake is major improvment and gives quite a bit of the needed airflow and RPM range added compression will need, and the cam is next..... BUT if you just put an edlebrock on a 1970 400HP engine... It would wake up major! This is my point...... Easy, cheap and just as the factory built it.... The big valves are great and the rockers for sure, but port work is going to just be minimal over the basics and just add expense to a simple and clean motor. The less aftermarket stuff and custom cutting you keep out of the project, the better off you are as you retain the factory integrity... Best thing for fun... Integrity and reliability..... There are 1000HP cadillac engines that have 10's of thousands in them, but they are competition engines and are not going to last on the street for more than 10 seconds...

But for a few K or less you can take a 500 10:5:1 engine, use the edlebrock intake, throw an average cam in it and you will make 450HP to the flywheel or darn close, and not have to really do anything.. The motor will last and work usually forever, as its is essentially stock with a cam and intake.... This is the combo that Lux would get the most for the least out of.

Sure you can spend some more money to insure that it lasts with better parts, balancing, rockers, a more exact cam grind for compression/vehicle weight/stall/gears/rpm ranges, but the power is not going to be night and day over the basic easy slap together 10:5:1 cam and intake engine.... It would be better, but the bang for the buck is going away now...... This is my like of this engine as I dont want a complicated project, this is simple.. I got complicated projects already.

The point of this entire thing is that I dont understand why anyone would want to intentionally limit the preformance they are going to get out of a motor by building a "high perfromace" engine with lower than the best compression ratio. If you live in a place where only 87 or 89 is avalible.. Thats a valid reson, but thats about it.....

You seem to be big on the cams.....If you are putting a cam in the car that will "trick" the compression ratio by raising the cylinder pressure to achieve a higher type compression ratio, like a higher centerline grind... This is good... Cams like that are perfect for putting in low compression engines and having them act like high compresion engines, to an extent. You can also do this by advancing any cam 4 deg. I have done this with engines I dont want to tear down and try and get as much as you can for the weak hand you are delt.... Both neat tricks to low compression engines, but it only goes so far, and both the above will not achieve the HP compression will do, but bring down the torque curve and the "feel" of being faster, but definatly give that "peaky" performace as you mentioned. These are cheap alternatives to tearing an engine out as this can be done in the car... Not what you want to do when building one though...

Again, all this brings me back to the simple fact that compression is cheap when the engine is being built, compression will make more power over the same lower compression engine if added.... Having the choice of 9:1 or 10:5:1 for the same price.... 9:1 is just having some lead weight in your car while racing it.

Matt


Ok.....no hard feelings
Having said that
one thing i have found especially in the cadillac world is
"you do not have to know anything to have an oppinion"
the engine that lux is doing with the cam it has in it now will not make 420 horse and id bet a paycheck on it.
Al has a tendancy to guess on what things will make and that just comes from basic lack of high performance knowledge.
This was in part one of the reasons i opened my own business was that i could not get what i wanted from anyone in the cadillac business.
on to your camshaft
what you did was basically take a camshaft that has a tendancy to be "peaky" power wise and make it worse.
i havent driven your car or seen your dyno numbers but i can tell you that any of my camshaft/head combinations will make more useable power thruout the rpm range resulting in a much quicker and more INTERESTING car to drive
there is alot more to building power than compression
airflow
port shape
cam design
tuning
are all something that we pay close attention to here and ive made more power than anyone going against the rules that have been set supposedly in stone and what i do goes against everything in the big cadillac book and what Larry K ,Al and everyone else has said works
Im glad your happy with the combination you have and if it meets or exceeds your expectations thats great
im just telling you that there is another way and this isnt anything that i "guess" about its been tested
if youd like to talk about what ive said sometime id be more than game
later...Torque INC

Thanks for posting the intake pic. I painted my motor the same color. I debated about painting the intake that same color or black but left it alone. If it gets real crappy looking over time I will probably paint it eventually.

Matt I think part of what you are saying and trying to get lux hauler to consider is bang for the buck performance. Milling the heads while they are off to get the compression up to 10.5 or close will provide HP and better manners with his cam. I think Lux Hauler is thinking he is willing to trade a few ponies to be able to buy mid grade instead of high test. Depends on what is most important for your goals. Also in a less than perfect world with regards to fuel quality, tuning ability, parts wear, eventual carbon build up etc. If his motor later starts to ping or has some detonation where it becomes hard on pistons and makes you pull timing. At 10.5-1 you are going to race fuel or back in the motor. If you are running on mid grade you can move up to premuim.

My question is if he goes from 9-1 to 10-1 or 9.5-1 to 10.5-1 and gains 1 full point of compression what power etc do you think he will gain? Steve Brule (sp?) a well published motor builder and dyno operator for Westech in Cali often used by the magazines was quoted once to say. If memory serves me here. That each full point of compression in itself is normally worth about a 4% gain in HP. I take that if Lux Hauler's motor here should make say 400 HP that that would mean an additional 16HP.

PS With regards to AL's I am going to guess rough off the top of his head estimate as to this motors projected ideal HP, is that he probably in his mind was thinking 10ish-1 compression as most similar builds would be built on 10-1.

Well......I FINALLY got the engine back from the machine shop. It's not completely assembled. I just kinda stuck it together for the picture.
The color isn't as bright as it appears in the picture......it's closer to the color of the intake in the picture that I posted earlier.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image019-med.jpg

Well......I FINALLY got the engine back from the machine shop. It's not completely assembled. I just kinda stuck it together for the picture.
The color isn't as bright as it appears in the picture......it's closer to the color of the intake in the picture that I posted earlier.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/500/20Image019-med.jpg



Looks good......JW

Hey Lux Hauler, let me know how you like that Petronix HEI conversion kit. I used the same one on my 425 but don't have the motor in or running yet and I'd like to get some feedback on this item. I did the 425 with 11:1 Ross pistons and the MT 15 cam. Had to have a BIG dome on the pistons because the 425 uses 96cc combustion chambers and they measured about 116 after un-shrouding the valves.Thanks...

Hey Lux Hauler, let me know how you like that Petronix HEI conversion kit. I used the same one on my 425 but don't have the motor in or running yet and I'd like to get some feedback on this item. I did the 425 with 11:1 Ross pistons and the MT 15 cam. Had to have a BIG dome on the pistons because the 425 uses 96cc combustion chambers and they measured about 116 after un-shrouding the valves.Thanks...

you have overestimated your horsepower output by a little better than 100
just letting you know
mill the domes off ,mill .025 off the heads and get a single pattern cam
might get you closer to 400
but thats just MO

Looks good......JW
Thanks!!

Hey Lux Hauler, let me know how you like that Petronix HEI conversion kit. I used the same one on my 425 but don't have the motor in or running yet and I'd like to get some feedback on this item. I did the 425 with 11:1 Ross pistons and the MT 15 cam. Had to have a BIG dome on the pistons because the 425 uses 96cc combustion chambers and they measured about 116 after un-shrouding the valves.Thanks...
Sorry Angela.....didn't see your post.
I haven't run the motor yet so I don't have any info for you. It probably won't be run for at least a month or so. I still have to get the tranny rebuilt and fab-up the whole install.....but when I do get it all set up, I'll post what the results are.
:burn:

If it's running in a month, it will still be up before mine...Funny how a lack of funds slow these projects down :crying2:

If it's running in a month, it will still be up before mine...Funny how a lack of funds slow these projects down :crying2:
Yep....the money train came and went but didn't leave nearly enough for me. Guess I'll just have to wait for the next one. ;)

At least it stops at your station...Actually I shouldn't complain, my husband helps me out with the cost of the motor and Santa is bringing me a bunch of stuff from MTS :bouncy: speaking of the size of those 425 ports, I ported mine myself using as much knowledge as I could find on porting and the Caddy ports in particular and a touch of common sense, but I know I'll be going in there again when the Edelbrock dual-plane comes, to match the ports to the intake runners.That rubbery mold material sold under the name " Blu-Sil" is a very helpful tool in measuring port sizes as you go along.

Ok.....back to my motor build.
Some have asked how much all this was going to cost.......I finally did a little figuring.
The cam kit (cam, valve springs, retainers, valve locks and valve stem seals), shaft rocker set-up, stainless bolt kit, Edelbrock intake and a few other odds and ends were purchased from MTS. The total for that stuff was right around $1000.
I had some things done at the machine shop that weren't really necessary but I had them done anyhow. Those little things added to the cost quite a bit.
Total cost for parts, machine work and labor from the machine shop was right around $3500.
So the total (so far) is around $4500.
Now I've decided to have JWalker complete the port work on the heads. That'll add to the cost but will open the heads up and give me quite a bit more power.
Next on the list (besides the port work) are header flanges, headers, a carb rebuild, tranny build and.....whatever else I can find to spend money on. :bonkers:
:burn: :coolgleam

hey guys,
i've been checking out the board for a while now and finally decided to register, as there appears to be some very knowledgable and experienced people on here. i have a '75 500 i'm planning on building once the year rolls around, not sure of the chassis yet but i've already purchased the edelbrock manifold and a set of 76cc heads to workover.
lux, what are the specs for the cam you decided to use? how high do you plan on spinning it?

Brett,

hey guys,
i've been checking out the board for a while now and finally decided to register, as there appears to be some very knowledgable and experienced people on here. i have a '75 500 i'm planning on building once the year rolls around, not sure of the chassis yet but i've already purchased the edelbrock manifold and a set of 76cc heads to workover.
lux, what are the specs for the cam you decided to use? how high do you plan on spinning it?

Brett,
Hey Brett!!
The motor will probably not spin any faster than 4500 rpm's. That may even be a little extreme. It'll probably be out of power by the time it hits 4500.
As far as the cam specs.....
intake:284* .519
exhaust:296* .519
If you're interested, I can put you in touch with someone that's supposed to have some pretty good cam grinds.

Hey Brett!!
The motor will probably not spin any faster than 4500 rpm's. That may even be a little extreme. It'll probably be out of power by the time it hits 4500.
As far as the cam specs.....
intake:284* .519
exhaust:296* .519
If you're interested, I can put you in touch with someone that's supposed to have some pretty good cam grinds.
i appreciate the offer, i'll have to get in touch with you when i get ready to order. one thing i've discovered is that coincidentally jerry potters shop is also here in Chattanooga. i've been reading on the MTS forum for a while and i've heard a lot of good things about him and his work with the 500/472s.
would you happen to know the quench distance with the head and piston setup you're using?

i appreciate the offer, i'll have to get in touch with you when i get ready to order. one thing i've discovered is that coincidentally jerry potters shop is also here in Chattanooga. i've been reading on the MTS forum for a while and i've heard a lot of good things about him and his work with the 500/472s.
would you happen to know the quench distance with the head and piston setup you're using?
No, I sure don't.

The engine is back in the machine shop. There is a little problem with the way the pistons are setting in the holes. :annoyed: I'll have an update on that as soon as they tell me what they plan to do to fix it.

Just curious Lux, what's the fit problem with the pistons? And what kind of pistons are you using?

Just curious Lux, what's the fit problem with the pistons? And what kind of pistons are you using?
The pistons are KB hyperutectics.
The pistons are setting crooked in the holes. If you are looking at the passenger-side bank of cylinders, at around the 4 o'clock position on each piston, the piston is below the deck. Go directly accross the piston, to the 10 o'clock position and the piston is above the deck. The drivers-side bank appears to be much more normal......zero decked.
There is no 'official' cause as of yet......they haven't looked at it. As far as what I think the problem is.....? I believe they cross-bored the cylinders. Somehow, they didn't get the block set in the machine properly. :banghead: Needless to say, I'm not very happy about it. If, in fact, that is the problem, the block is trash and they'll have to prep another one for me.

Think I'll go downstairs first thing tommorrow morning and take a close look at mine! I've had enough problems so far with Ross Pistons forgeting to leave a notch for the sparkplugs, and the machine shop putting the crank gear on the 4 degree retarded keyway and me thinking they had it straight up.That kept me busy for days wondering why the cam was retarded. When I realized what they did, :cookoo:, I felt retarded!

Well.....it seems that it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought. The rods on that side of the motor hadn't been checked for straightness. The rods were straightened and reinstalled......now everything looks good.

How's that for a near heart attack!! All's well that ends well. :littlewes I missed what you said you're using for rods.Did you go with the originals and have them re-conned?You're gonna have a sweet engine when this is all done

How's that for a near heart attack!! All's well that ends well. :littlewes I missed what you said you're using for rods.Did you go with the originals and have them re-conned?You're gonna have a sweet engine when this is all doneYeah......I'm using the stock rods but I wish I had gone with the Olds rods.
When this build started, it was going to be a basic re-build with a few improvements.......a mild cam, a bump in compression etc.. That's why I used the originals. By the time I started thinking about the Olds rods, everything had already been balanced and I would have had to pay for that all over again.:eek:

I used the Olds rods 'cause my originals had 200K and a re-con on them already. Plus if I want to do more HP in the future I knew I'd have a rod that could take it.I see what you mean about all that work to re-do. What a nightmare...

Hello,
My name is Terry. I have my hands on a 1973 500 in a Deville. The motor has been sitting for 4 years. About 2 months ago I filled each each cyl with Marvel Myst Oil. Its sitting out in my friends backyard. It use to run beatiful. I actualy was with him when he picked the car up. He started to pull the motor and he had the torch warmed up the exhaust bolts and snapped one of them on accident drove it for a bit parked it and its been sitting ever since.
Its mine and all I have to do is pull it with tran. I have a 77 Ford LTD and I can trade this boat with a 302 for a 91 sanoma. I use to have a 87 s-10 with a 350 4bolt mane,350T, Super comp Hooker headers, lopey cam, 650 Edelbrock carb, Weiland intake, Dual 3 inch exhaust, 2 John Deere Tractor mufflers, blazer GT4 (GM CODE)(3.73) rear end, B&M floor shifter. Dont have the truck no more. So since then I wanted to put a big block in one. So when I got the internet I started looking for stuff like that and got lucky. I contacted one person who is in college whose done it and is going to tell me every thing. He said it is easy and its not hard like it seams it would be. Heres the link just copy and paste it in your browser.

http://community.webshots.com/user/my454s10

How do I know if its the 400 horse motor or the 365 horse? Thanks for any help.

Lux hauler,
What is the biggest cam grind for my stock 500 heads? Just so the instalation goes easy . Im going to go start that caddy block when the snow melts. The first thing Im going to do is turn the block by hand just in case its seized. I dont think it is . The hood been down the whole time but Ill find out if the marvem oil is real. Farmers use the stuff all the time to unseize their tractors.

If the motor in that car is the factory motor, it's not a 500, it's a 472. Not that that's a problem......the 472 is a great motor too. Devilles didn't get the 500 until 1975.
As far as the cam goes.....talk to JWalker about that. I understand that he has some really good cam grinds and can tell you what you need to work with your combination.

The sticker actualy says 501. Does that matter? Maybe I got the year wrong? The cam I want to work with needs to use the stock heads to the max.I dont want a dragster. Even though it prob will be fast all stock.

I got the heads back from JWalker......they look good. I dropped them off at the machine shop. Now I just have to wait for them to get everything put back together.

I'm gunna stop at the shop tomorrow. If the heads aren't on the motor, I'll get a few pictures of the cleaned up ports.

I ain't heard from JWalker in a while. How he doing? I will need to talk to him soon about what he would recommend for me on my project.

Madlac and others

To be honest with you im not real impressed by one of the moderators on this board and i just dont stop by much unless someone responds to something that is 425/472/500 related.
Having said that i can always be reached luxhauler knows how to get ahold of me and ive been working on alot of projects that came in all at once.
I will have my website up very soon and everyone is welcome and i wont have it be a registration type thing until things get out of hand....if they do.
so if you need me check in on www.cadillachighperformance.com it should be up soon or talk to lux hauler to get my email addy.
look foreward to hearing from any of you...JW

Madlac and others

To be honest with you im not real impressed by one of the moderators on this board and i just dont stop by much unless someone responds to something that is 425/472/500 related.
Having said that i can always be reached luxhauler knows how to get ahold of me and ive been working on alot of projects that came in all at once.
I will have my website up very soon and everyone is welcome and i wont have it be a registration type thing until things get out of hand....if they do.
so if you need me check in on www.cadillachighperformance.com (http://www.cadillachighperformance.com/) it should be up soon or talk to lux hauler to get my email addy.
look foreward to hearing from any of you...JW:eek: :canttalk: :tisk: :D