: Bad car to learn manual on?



dennych
10-19-12, 06:43 PM
OK,

So I have very little experience driving a manual for a few hours in a parking lot. My co-worker recommended I pick up the manual V-wagon anyway. He said learning on it isn't too big a deal. And I will likely regret getting an automatic later on. What do you guys think

pat2t2f
10-19-12, 06:53 PM
I have the manual wagon and I don't find it harder to shift than any other car I have driven. With that said I think there are other issues to consider. First, it might be an expensive clutch to change if it ends up you aren't very good at driving a manual transmission. Second, if its your daily driver you should make sure you like rowing the gears on a regular basis. Some people are good at it but dont really like it much.
Good luck with whatever decision you make.

larry arizona
10-19-12, 07:27 PM
easiest manual to learn on. Pretty hard to stall or buck a car with this much torque. Get it with confidence my man!

MikeG-V
10-19-12, 07:34 PM
Drove a manual vagon today at the v labs expo at Palm beach international raceway. This was the first time I drove a stick in 12 years. It was not complicated. Just don't try for that 7th gear!

BuckThunder
10-19-12, 07:35 PM
The clutch is "butter smooth". I have let several people drive my sedan that have not driven a clutch in a long time and no one has stalled it yet.

larry arizona
10-19-12, 07:37 PM
hardest manual to learn on is an underpowered and over weight car and a thoughtless trans/clutch design. The exact opposite of the V 6M

Mike02z
10-19-12, 07:39 PM
My 14 year old drove my V on a private road and he had no issue learning to drive a manual. He has a heck of a time with my manual Corvette as I replaced the stock shifter with an MGW. Need some strength to shift that one :D

larry arizona
10-19-12, 07:53 PM
My 14 year old drove my V on a private road and he had no issue learning to drive a manual. He has a heck of a time with my manual Corvette as I replaced the stock shifter with an MGW. Need some strength to shift that one :D

I wish I could have learned to drive a stick on a V2:thumbsup: Does your son know how lucky he is?

flatrockguy
10-19-12, 08:03 PM
Go for the manual. Once you learn to shift it, you will have a ball.

nynd
10-19-12, 08:12 PM
Do it... you won't look back.. not once, not ever!

Houdini
10-19-12, 08:16 PM
Yep easiest manual to drive. Would be perfect to learn on.

Mike02z
10-19-12, 08:22 PM
Does your son know how lucky he is?

Who knows with kids these days...I got him a 1993 Ruby Anniversary Corvette for his 14th birthday. Teaching him how to fix and maintain it so he is ready when he is 16. Also told him he has to pay his own insurance which should be about 3K per year minimum.

I think I'm trying to make up for everything I missed when I was young due to our being poor.

M5eater
10-19-12, 08:22 PM
The CTS-V is incrediably easy to drive.

I hadden't driven a stick in 2 years before the 6MT V.

I was scared fairly shitless with no followup from the B5 S4 and jumping right into a brand new, 4 mile, 70K, 556hp car.


It was a breeze. I didn't stall even once.

dennych
10-19-12, 08:25 PM
good to know about that. My only experience with a manual was a few hours in a parking lot in my friend's old miata while he tried to teach me. stalled so much.........
I have no actual public road experience. and that's what frightens me a bit

M5eater
10-19-12, 08:31 PM
good to know about that. My only experience with a manual was a few hours in a parking lot in my friend's old miata while he tried to teach me. stalled so much.........
I have no actual public road experience. and that's what frightens me a bit

lol, I have an NA miata,and I understand your concerns. my first manual was an Audi A4, and I had to drive it 700miles from ohio.. having ~ 2 days of experience in a 4 cylinder S10.

I stalled a LOT too, but I didn't horrifically crash, I just bruised my ego a bit, and by the time I got home, I was fairly proficient.

The miata is a bit harder just because there's not a lot of adjustability in how you can sit(and there's not tilt/telescoping steering wheel). You also have to rev the nuts off it to get moving, and honestly, if not properly lubricated the shiftier can be a lot more notchy than the V2.

I'm not saying you'll be able to hop into the V and shift like a pro instantly, but if you can manage not to dump the clutch, it's impossible to stall the car(it has more than 3 times the torque off idle than the 1.6/1.8 has period), and changing gears can be a pretty smooth experience given that the DBW system retards throttle imput with the clutch pedal engaged. So you should have an easier time not jerking the car hard enough to perform the Heimlich maneuver on your lunch.

To get to the point where you're not having problems coming off the line, rolling backwards holding a hill or shifting smoothly, it's going to take at least 1-2 weeks of daily driving, and a few months-1 year to get totally used to the clutch in this car/ or to wear it in enough that it's not super-grabby.

JFJr
10-19-12, 09:15 PM
Big torque V-8's are the easiest to learn how to drive a manual transmission. However, experienced manual drivers are constantly surprised with how fast the V2 clutch engages. That's a good thing, but I don't like those drivers stalling my car.

Jud

OldRoadDawg
10-19-12, 09:15 PM
I'm more curious as to whether you have driven a V with the auto trans, since you made it clear you haven't driven the manual. Preferably finding a dealer that has both available to drive would seem to be the most logical first step.

brian-nicola
10-19-12, 09:23 PM
Better than what I learned on....my fathers 1959 Volks bug!

larry arizona
10-19-12, 09:29 PM
Just wait until you try for first full throttle "No Lift Shift" It is FN amazing!!!!!!! Talk about a rush and relearning everything you were taught about drving a stick. Very hard to force yourself to keep your throttle foot down........ My fave feature about the 6M V is "no lift shift"!:bouncy:

dennych
10-19-12, 09:54 PM
I'm more curious as to whether you have driven a V with the auto trans, since you made it clear you haven't driven the manual. Preferably finding a dealer that has both available to drive would seem to be the most logical first step.

yeah, only driven the automatic at the Vlabs event at the auto club speedway and on 1 test drive.

simgolfer
10-20-12, 01:18 AM
Having driven multiple brands of vehicles with manual transmissions, other than an old Honda Civic I drove in college, the V is up there with ease of driving. Each car will have a different takeup point and stiffness in the clutch but once you have the timing done, it is a breeze. But I agree that you have to make sure you will enjoy driving with three pedals whether you have an open stretch of curvy road or miles of bumper to bumper commuter traffic.

dennych
10-20-12, 03:51 AM
Cool, well looks like I'm going for the auto for this particular vehicle. But there's always a future throw around car like a miata :D

larry arizona
10-20-12, 09:46 AM
Cool, well looks like I'm going for the auto for this particular vehicle. But there's always a future throw around car like a miata :D

Really? If you at all desire a manual and settle on the auto, you will regret not getting the 6M. Ask those who settled on the auto how much it bothered them a few months down the road and then did the deal to get rid of the auto and how much $$$$ it cost. I have yet to hear anyone regret a 6M even as a daily driver.

pat2t2f
10-20-12, 11:00 AM
It seems to me the people who got automatics over manuals and regretted it are people with experience shifting. The OP only drove a manual for an hour or two in a parking lot. What if he decides he just does not like shifting gears? Then he is stuck with it. I am not saying he should not get it but I am saying it's not that easy of a decision.

shchow
10-20-12, 12:02 PM
I got the auto because it was "quicker" and my wife needs to drive it on occasion.
I have regretted my decision.
If I had to do it over, I would get the manual.
But I am fairly experienced with manuals...

peso611
10-20-12, 12:14 PM
This is the first manual that I own, however I have driven many in the past. I don't know if I need more practice or I have a bad clutch but I find the clutch heavy. Also I'm still trying to find the sweet spot on first to not peel out. I was always told not to drag the clutch but it seems like I have to engage the clutch a lot to get it out of first smoothly. But to answer your question M6 is the way to go no regrets!

dennych
10-20-12, 12:23 PM
well one thing we deal with a lot in LA is traffic so I could see how a manual might be less than optimal in those situations.

garfin
10-20-12, 04:39 PM
I taught my daughter-in-law to drive a manual on my V and didn't hesitate for a second to do so. The TR6060 is a robust transmission, along with the clutch. They are both engineered to handle a lot of torque. I can't imagine that someone learning to drive a manual on this car will be hurting either the clutch or the tranny with easy and hopefully smooth starts in a parking lot. I just warned her not to "ride" or "slip" the clutch.

Best regards,

Elie

JFJr
10-20-12, 07:35 PM
I taught my daughter-in-law to drive a manual on my V and didn't hesitate for a second to do so. The TR6060 is a robust transmission, along with the clutch. They are both engineered to handle a lot of torque. I can't imagine that someone learning to drive a manual on this car will be hurting either the clutch or the tranny with easy and hopefully smooth starts in a parking lot. I just warned her not to "ride" or "slip" the clutch.

Best regards,

Elie

Elie, you are a real sport, but I learned on a friend's solid lifter 365 hp 1964 or 1965 Corvette, so I know the powerful small blocks are very forgiving.

Jud

1madstsv
10-21-12, 09:23 AM
If you live in in LA get the auto you would never get out of 1/2 gear on the way to work. I drive a tractor trailer every day and LA is the worst traffic any where in the Country. I have a m6 corvette with a race clutch and 610 lift cam and if you can drive my car you can drive any car. And I still would not want a dd stick in LA. And yes I have driven 6/7 new v2 manuals 2 wagons 5 sedans. And just a many autos. I transport cars. So I drive all kinds of manuals. I would say stay away from the m6 for your dd.

M5eater
10-21-12, 09:31 AM
Just wait until you try for first full throttle "No Lift Shift" It is FN amazing!!!!!!! Talk about a rush and relearning everything you were taught about drving a stick. Very hard to force yourself to keep your throttle foot down........ My fave feature about the 6M V is "no lift shift"!:bouncy:
I still haven't fully mastered that, mostly because it's so freaking weird, and also because I'm saving it for MIR >_>

larry arizona
10-21-12, 09:54 AM
M5, Work up to the "No lift Shift" you will get there when ready! Have no fear

“Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless.” YODA

garfin
10-21-12, 09:59 AM
M5, Work up to the "No lift Shift" you will get there when ready! Have no fear



The kick in your back after the no-lift shift, when you get off the clutch is simply unholy!

Best regards,

Elie

larry arizona
10-21-12, 10:01 AM
Unholy but ohh so good!

----------

For this reason alone, you can keep all your 6A's

neuronbob
10-21-12, 10:36 AM
Really? If you at all desire a manual and settle on the auto, you will regret not getting the 6M. Ask those who settled on the auto how much it bothered them a few months down the road and then did the deal to get rid of the auto and how much $$$$ it cost. I have yet to hear anyone regret a 6M even as a daily driver.

*Raises hand* Yup, that's me.

The automatic is not bad at all, though. With a tranny tune, the shifts are short and crisp as opposed to without. This automatic has probably the best sport shift mode I've ever experienced. It is no DCT, but it won't get in its own way. With that said, I am strongly interested in moving to the 6MT because even in rush hour traffic, I enjoy driving. I am lucky to live in Cleveland, where other than during rush hour (and it really is only 1-1 1/2 hours in the AM and PM here), traffic is pretty free-flowing. I am also lucky to actually know how to drive a manual.

In any case, I partially regret not getting a 6MT and definitely regret not getting Recaros. I am about to correct both errors and can't wait to experience that no-lift shift for the first time.

garfin
10-21-12, 06:33 PM
The kick in your back after the no-lift shift, when you get off the clutch is simply unholy!

Best regards,

Elie

BTW, "the key to perfecting the no-lift shift, according to Camaro chief engineer Al Oppenheiser, is short-shifting. Not way before redline but just enough that the 1.9-liter supercharger has time to produce boost between gears."

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1206_2012_chevy_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_ford_shelby_gt5 00/viewall.html

Best regards,

Elie

muohio
10-21-12, 07:27 PM
Overall, the V is the least smooth of all the LSx powered cars I've driven and owned. I think it's the combination of the dual clutches, higher gear ratio and weight.

JFJr
10-21-12, 07:36 PM
Overall, the V is the least smooth of all the LSx powered cars I've driven and owned. I think it's the combination of the dual clutches, higher gear ratio and weight.

Not in my experience and I have owned a lot of LSx Corvettes. And they weren't nearly as powerful and didn't have dual disc clutches. The Corvettes had longer throw shifts and weighed about 900# less.

Jud

Xaqtly
10-22-12, 01:36 AM
BTW, "the key to perfecting the no-lift shift, according to Camaro chief engineer Al Oppenheiser, is short-shifting. Not way before redline but just enough that the 1.9-liter supercharger has time to produce boost between gears."

That's interesting. I haven't been able to make it work yet, but according to that, I might be trying to do it too close to redline. Every time I try it, I always bounce off the rev limiter, meaning the system isn't holding the engine speed. So for those of you who have gotten it to work, are you shifting around 6k instead of right near redline? Or even sooner maybe?

larry arizona
10-22-12, 07:43 AM
you should be able to do it at any RPM. I have done it at 3500 all the way to 6000 RPM. Never pushed it to 6200.

garfin
10-22-12, 09:51 AM
That's interesting. I haven't been able to make it work yet, but according to that, I might be trying to do it too close to redline. Every time I try it, I always bounce off the rev limiter, meaning the system isn't holding the engine speed. So for those of you who have gotten it to work, are you shifting around 6k instead of right near redline? Or even sooner maybe?


you should be able to do it at any RPM. I have done it at 3500 all the way to 6000 RPM. Never pushed it to 6200.

Right, I've also done it in the mid-RPM ranges when I was becoming familiar with this feature and working up to it. I think the method that Al O. is suggesting is the best way to maximize the effect of the no-lift shift. The red tracers on my tach start flashing at around 5500 rpm, so maybe try shifting right after you see the tracers flashing. By the time you react and shift, you should be closer to 6000 rpm than 5500 rpm.
If you are bouncing off the rev limiter, it sounds to me as if you are not shifting quickly enough, which also involves getting "on and off" the clutch quickly. The shift action and clutch action are virtually simultaneous, as opposed to the normal "clutch in, shift, clutch out" sequence. So In order to make the no-lift shift work, you need to effect pretty fast gear changes. This comes second nature to us old farts who learned to power shift on the "Rockcrusher". LOL!
Try sitting in the car with the engine off and practice shifting and getting on and off the clutch at the same time - as quickly as you can. It shouldn't take much longer to do than making a check mark on a piece of paper.
Keep at it = you'll get it.

Best regards,

Elie
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Xaqtly
10-22-12, 01:39 PM
I'm positive it's not because I'm not shifting fast enough. I've done a good amount of drag racing, just trust me on this. :) But I have been doing it very close to the limiter, so I'll try doing it a little further down and see if that works better.

smiley47
10-22-12, 08:19 PM
Go find a car rental company that has cars with manual tranny's. Rent one for a weekend, drive the crap out of it and by the time you return it you can slide right into the manual V and shift like a seasoned pro. That's what I did when my daughter was learning to drive before I let her drive my stick 300Z back in the day.

JFJr
10-22-12, 09:15 PM
Go find a car rental company that has cars with manual tranny's. Rent one for a weekend, drive the crap out of it and by the time you return it you can slide right into the manual V and shift like a seasoned pro. That's what I did when my daughter was learning to drive before I let her drive my stick 300Z back in the day.

Go find a rental company that will let you rent a manual transmission car; guess why they don't; there are a lot of bad drivers around. Why are they all autos?

Jud

garfin
10-22-12, 09:16 PM
I'm positive it's not because I'm not shifting fast enough. I've done a good amount of drag racing, just trust me on this. :) But I have been doing it very close to the limiter, so I'll try doing it a little further down and see if that works better.

Good Stuff! I definitely have trust in you on this one. Now I know it will all come together for you!!:)

Just keep that right foot buried!

Best regards,

Elie

M5eater
10-24-12, 09:29 AM
*Raises hand* Yup, that's me.

The automatic is not bad at all, though. With a tranny tune, the shifts are short and crisp as opposed to without. This automatic has probably the best sport shift mode I've ever experienced. It is no DCT, but it won't get in its own way. With that said, I am strongly interested in moving to the 6MT because even in rush hour traffic, I enjoy driving. I am lucky to live in Cleveland, where other than during rush hour (and it really is only 1-1 1/2 hours in the AM and PM here), traffic is pretty free-flowing. I am also lucky to actually know how to drive a manual.

In any case, I partially regret not getting a 6MT and definitely regret not getting Recaros. I am about to correct both errors and can't wait to experience that no-lift shift for the first time.
Well said.

The auto is not bad. It's just no manual. Nothing is, can be or will feel remotely the same. It's physically impossible.

There's so many nuances lost in the car when you have an auto it dampens the experience that you're driving the car instead of just tagging along for the ride.

It's not something that can be adequately explained in words.

neuronbob
10-25-12, 10:37 PM
Hey guys, I have more questions about the manual.

I assume the 6060 is a synchronized manual. (Edit: So says Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_TR-6060_transmission ) If I'm on the freeway and I want to shift from 6 to 3 or 4, can I do that, or do I have to shift sequentially to protect the synchros?

Also, in the snow, in this particular car, I am sure I can start in 2nd instead of 1st to avoid spinning. If needed, can I start in 3rd? I ask this question specifically because of the behavior of the 6AT in manual mode.....while the car is not in motion, I can tap into 3rd gear. I've never tried starting in 3rd with the automatic, but is that ever useful?


As an aside, I was at the dealer crunching numbers on a 13 6MT wagon. They look reasonable and I think I'm going to (finally) pull the trigger. The MT questions here are therefore taking on more relevance.

M5eater
10-25-12, 11:09 PM
you can shift from 6th to 3rd...
I do it all the time. especially @ 60mph.. :D

I don't think there's a manual made within the last 30 years that isn't synchronized.

as for which gear you can start in, you could probably start in 4th or 5th if you really watned to.

It wouldn't be necessary from what I hear; the TC is is very good.

garfin
10-25-12, 11:40 PM
Hey guys, I have more questions about the manual.

I assume the 6060 is a synchronized manual. (Edit: So says Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_TR-6060_transmission ) If I'm on the freeway and I want to shift from 6 to 3 or 4, can I do that, or do I have to shift sequentially to protect the synchros?

Also, in the snow, in this particular car, I am sure I can start in 2nd instead of 1st to avoid spinning. If needed, can I start in 3rd? I ask this question specifically because of the behavior of the 6AT in manual mode.....while the car is not in motion, I can tap into 3rd gear. I've never tried starting in 3rd with the automatic, but is that ever useful?


As an aside, I was at the dealer crunching numbers on a 13 6MT wagon. They look reasonable and I think I'm going to (finally) pull the trigger. The MT questions here are therefore taking on more relevance.


you can shift from 6th to 3rd...
I do it all the time. especially @ 60mph.. :D

I don't think there's a manual made within the last 30 years that isn't synchronized.

as for which gear you can start in, you could probably start in 4th or 5th if you really watned to.

It wouldn't be necessary from what I hear; the TC is is very good.

Yup... M5eater is hitting the nail on the head.

Just a couple of addendums...
If you're gonna be downshifting 2 or 3 gears to 4th or 3rd from 6th at highway speeds, be VERY, VERY diligent with your rev matching... if you don't bring the revs up high enough you stand a very good chance of getting all squirrely when you lift up on the clutch in the lower gear. Not fun when you throw the car out of balance when you don't mean to.

In my day, "fully synchronized" meant that you didn't need to bring the car to a full stop before engaging 1st gear!! LOL! Early on, virtually all cars had to be at a dead stop before you were able to put the tranny back into 1st! A fully synchronized transmission was a big technological advancement in the 50's! My oh my!!

You can start off in pretty well any gear you wish in this car. I have started in 2nd many times in snowy conditions to avoid spinning. Leaving all the nannies on will also go a long way in preventing wheel spin in slippery conditions. I happen to like starting in a higher gear so that I can maintain control, rather than letting the computer oversee that. That being said, starting in a higher gear could result in more clutch slippage, depending on your experience.

...and good luck with your acquisition of a manual Vagon!!

Best regards,

Elie

SoCalCTSV
10-26-12, 01:52 AM
If you live in in LA get the auto you would never get out of 1/2 gear on the way to work. I drive a tractor trailer every day and LA is the worst traffic any where in the Country. I have a m6 corvette with a race clutch and 610 lift cam and if you can drive my car you can drive any car. And I still would not want a dd stick in LA. And yes I have driven 6/7 new v2 manuals 2 wagons 5 sedans. And just a many autos. I transport cars. So I drive all kinds of manuals. I would say stay away from the m6 for your dd.

I drive 30 miles to Beverly Hills daily on manual. Leave at 5:15 am and go home 4-5 pm. 405 N sucks for 25 minutes then its 80 mph north on the 101 the rest of the ride. No biggie. It's fun.

pat2t2f
10-26-12, 04:29 PM
Bob,
I have a thunder grey 6m wagon and love it. My kids (7,10,12) always ask to take it When we go out. Good luck with yours. It'll be the right decision.

Xaqtly
10-26-12, 04:41 PM
It's not something that can be adequately explained in words.

I agree, although there is a word I like to use to try to describe it: "visceral". :D

JFJr
10-26-12, 10:15 PM
If any of you guys have ever flown a plane, you'll understand and know what it is to be involved and one with the machine. A little harder to experience that in a modern car with all the features that appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Jud

Xaqtly
10-28-12, 06:31 AM
Hey Bob, I have a 6M Vagon and a GoPro camera. If there's anything you'd like to see demonstrated before you get yours, it can probably be arranged. :D