: STP High mileage oil additive.



CadillacLuke24
10-14-12, 12:05 AM
I'm going to change my oil next week, and for starters I'm going with Quaker State Defy-their high mileage stuff with some ZDDP added in. My DeVille has 65,525 miles on it, but the earlier Northstars are flat-tappet cammers, so I figured it'd be a good idea to start early. Now to my question: I also noted some STP high mileage oil additive, which also has ZDDP, and I'm thinking about gettin' that too.

Is this a case of too much of a good thing? Or is it fine?

:sneaky: Or did I just start Oil War 10,124,593???

Ranger
10-14-12, 10:48 AM
I'm going to change my oil next week, and for starters I'm going with Quaker State Defy-their high mileage stuff with some ZDDP added in.
Is this a case of too much of a good thing? Or is it fine?
That's all you need.


Is this a case of too much of a good thing? Or is it fine?
Yes, this is a case of more is not better.

Submariner409
10-14-12, 10:51 AM
No oil war, and NO STP ANYTHING !!!

The QS Defy is all the extra additive package you need.

QS is part of the Shell/Pennzoil/QS umbrella: SOPUS (Shell Oil Products U.S.) and Shell packages several different brands of HD engine oils that conform to the older SJ or SL oil designations.

Your engine was spec'd for either a SH (obsolete) or SJ (2001 and earlier) API oil service, so the conventional "High Mileage" oils will be just fine.

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/motor_oil_guide_2010_120210.pdf

CadillacLuke24
10-14-12, 10:55 AM
Sweet! QS Defy 10W-30 it is. I'll have to put that 5 bucks to good use.....like a bottle of car wash mix :D


Thanks guys! :thumbsup:

Submariner409
10-14-12, 11:00 AM
Not sure about your comment "with some ZDDP added in...........".

The QS Defy additive package, as-is, would not need anything extra dumped in, and excess ZDDP absolutely kills catalytic converters. Unless you have all the spec sheets for all the lubricant products you want to use, and are a very good chemical mixing engineer, better safe than sorry ................

Get into www.joegibbsdriven.com (http://www.joegibbsdriven.com) and read up on wild engine oil formulations. Another reference source, and a good one, is the AMSOIL site.

dkozloski
10-14-12, 01:13 PM
Some years ago, STP paid the FTC the largest consumer fraud fine in history because their products did nothing they were claimed to do.

Submariner409
10-14-12, 01:41 PM
I believe that Andy Granatelli was involved in that fiasco - ??? and the Slick50 mess also ???

Time and time again the wildly optimistic snake oil claims prove to be either sort of false or flat lies.

Ranger
10-14-12, 03:20 PM
Yup, that was Granatelli and that Slick50 snake oil.

CadillacLuke24
10-14-12, 07:03 PM
Not sure about your comment "with some ZDDP added in...........".

The QS Defy additive package, as-is, would not need anything extra dumped in, and excess ZDDP absolutely kills catalytic converters. Unless you have all the spec sheets for all the lubricant products you want to use, and are a very good chemical mixing engineer, better safe than sorry ................

Get into www.joegibbsdriven.com (http://www.joegibbsdriven.com) and read up on wild engine oil formulations. Another reference source, and a good one, is the AMSOIL site.

What I meant is that QS Defy seems, to me, like regular QS with ZDDP added in. I will be swapping my current batch of oil with straight from the bottle QS Defy, 7 quarts in the pan, and .5 in the Purolater Gold filter (lubing the filter gasket while I'm at it), and nothing else.

Sorry for the confusion. Thanks a TON for the help. :thumbsup:

Ranger
10-14-12, 08:41 PM
I think you are confused. Regular QS has ZDDP. All motor oils do. The high Mileage stuff just has a little more.

CadillacLuke24
10-14-12, 11:45 PM
Ok. So Defy and other HM oils just have MORE. Gotcha. :thumbsup:

98eldo32v
10-15-12, 12:13 AM
Not to over state the obvious.

The "newer" oils are so thin that they are basically insufficient to protect the older engines. So basically, I have to pay probably more for something that "used to" be basic engine protection?! Now, call it what you want, it sounds like another way to remove that last of the older cars on the road to purchase a "newer" car?

What a hustle....

CadillacLuke24
10-15-12, 01:41 AM
And they charge ya a extra buck or two for the fancy High mileage oil. :nono:

Submariner409
10-15-12, 08:06 AM
The "newer" oils are so thin that they are basically insufficient to protect the older engines.

Not true. SL, SM and SN engine oils have each had a somewhat lesser zinc and phosphorus additive package (ZDDP) in order to conform to the latest knee-jerk dictates of the EPA: Catalytic converters now must be certified for ??? 120,000 ??? miles, and ZDDP in sufficient quantity kills today's 3-step catalytic converters.

BUT - lower ZDDP levels also remove part of the anti-scuff protection that older flat-tappet engines need.

Oil viscosity choices remain the same - the EPA-recommended oils for automotive engines carry the starburst symbol; high mileage and HD fleet oils which have a higher ZDDP (not much, but better) package do not get the starburst - they get the simple API rating "donut" symbol.

Read the links in Posts #3 and #5.

Ranger
10-15-12, 10:40 AM
Here is the oil ratings and ZDDP content.

CadillacLuke24
10-15-12, 12:18 PM
Somebody with the right connections needs to shut the EPA down. All they are is a bunch of over-zealous tree huggers who are nearly comatose on Al Gore's kool-aid.

dkozloski
10-15-12, 12:37 PM
When virtually all manufacturers went to roller cam followers it eliminated the last place in an internal combustion engine with high pressure sliding contact. At this point car makers went to the 5W-30 and 0W-30 oil viscioity recommendations and the reduction in ZDDP levels in motor oil. This produced better gas milage and longer CAT converter life with no loss in motor longevity. Unfortunately the old clunker owners with flat tappet cam followers are reduced to using motor oil formulated for trucks and diesels.

----------

As far as I have read, there was never a legal connection between Slick 50 and STP beyond both being snake oil. STP got nailed by the FTC and Slick 50 was exposed in a bitter lawsuit between partners. One of the partners revealed under oath in court that the formula for Slick 50 was ground up scrap Teflon in reclaimed crankcase drainings.


Another quote I remember from a NASA lubrication engineer about Slick 50 filling the pores and plating the moving parts in your engine was, "It sounds like a great theory. Too bad it doesn't work".

Submariner409
10-15-12, 01:01 PM
My mind is made up - don't confuse me with facts.














........ and I get a good kickback when I sell the stuff.

98eldo32v
10-15-12, 09:01 PM
"BUT - lower ZDDP levels also remove part of the anti-scuff protection that older flat-tappet engines need."

Ok, this is a catch 22. The EPA wants converters to last 120k, that's nice. MAKE THEM MORE RUGGED.

Someone help me out here, a converter that out lives the engine or an engine that out lives the converter?

:hmm:

drewsdeville
10-15-12, 09:32 PM
Even with todays spec'd oils, rounding cam lobes on flat tappet engines is a pretty rare occurance anyway. It's not like this is automatic death to all flat tappet engines. The N* may have been an exception, but most camshaft surfaces were sufficiently hardened where it seems it's difficult to damage them save for pouring sand on them or running them dry.

There are still millions of 1980's and older flat tappets, most are high mileage, still running around on original flat tappet camshafts and lifters, with SM spec in the oil pan - and those engines have technically been running with outdated API spec for decades.

98eldo32v
10-15-12, 09:39 PM
I'll agree that some of the older engines can probably survive on some of the newer oils.

Yet, the thought of the "newer" oil not having sufficient anti-wear additives or reduced levels doesn't sound good.

It's bad enough the pre 00 Northstars can scuff up the lifter buckets, ironically those same lifter buckets look like the ones used in my 2.3 high out put quad 4.

They suffer from the same fate of scuffing the lifters sometimes.

Submariner409
10-16-12, 09:49 AM
Yet, the thought of the "newer" oil not having sufficient anti-wear additives or reduced levels doesn't sound good.

It's not a "thought" - it's an absolute fact - for older flat-tappet engines. Look at Ranger's posted timetable for the decrease in ZDDP in starburst engine oils.

Keep this thread in context - it refers to older, flat-tappet cammed engines, not today's roller cammed engines that were developed for consumer use in conjunction with the reduced oil additive packages. Dumping additives or additional ZDDP into your 2000+ Northstar accomplishes exactly nothing. (It may make you feel warm and fuzzy, however.)

Don't take my word, or any other hearsay or off-the-wall opinion on this - go into the websites from oil manufacturers and packagers, both large and small, and do some studying. I have absolutely no doubt that you will find that, by and large, pre-2001 (???) flat tappet engines would be recommended to use an oil conforming to the older SJ or even SH specs - Read the oil bottles. It's still all there.

If you'll study the sites of several engine builders, parts manufacturers, cam manufacturers, and other "hot rod" info sites you'll find that the people who do this sort of stuff for a living are very concerned with flat-tappet cam wear due to lowered oil additive packages - very.

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/motor_oil_guide_2010_120210.pdf

http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/

Motor Oil Grades and Service Ratings (http://www.upmpg.com/motor_oil_rate_gas.htm)

http://www.amsoil.com/

dkozloski
10-16-12, 01:50 PM
GMC/Chevy 350s are notorious for flat cams and cupped tappets even when run on older high ZDDP oils. In fact, around here it's hard to find one that has a valve train that doesn't sound like a thrashing machine.

Manic Mechanic
10-16-12, 04:37 PM
Sub it's not just the older engines that can start scuffing a lifter. I've diagnosed 3 and repaired 2 Vortec 5.3's with valvetrain ticks that keep getting worse as worn lifter rollers and cam jounals. All start with cylinder 7. Something changed in the oil gallerys when they incorporated the displacement on demand into the block. I'd bet if the oil still had enough zinc and phosphorus it wouldn't be happening. Worse part is to change the lifters the heads have to come off of an LS.

Vernon

98eldo32v
10-18-12, 12:47 PM
It's not a "thought" - it's an absolute fact - for older flat-tappet engines. Look at Ranger's posted timetable for the decrease in ZDDP in starburst engine oils.

Keep this thread in context - it refers to older, flat-tappet cammed engines, not today's roller cammed engines that were developed for consumer use in conjunction with the reduced oil additive packages. Dumping additives or additional ZDDP into your 2000+ Northstar accomplishes exactly nothing. (It may make you feel warm and fuzzy, however.)

Don't take my word, or any other hearsay or off-the-wall opinion on this - go into the websites from oil manufacturers and packagers, both large and small, and do some studying. I have absolutely no doubt that you will find that, by and large, pre-2001 (???) flat tappet engines would be recommended to use an oil conforming to the older SJ or even SH specs - Read the oil bottles. It's still all there.

If you'll study the sites of several engine builders, parts manufacturers, cam manufacturers, and other "hot rod" info sites you'll find that the people who do this sort of stuff for a living are very concerned with flat-tappet cam wear due to lowered oil additive packages - very.

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/motor_oil_guide_2010_120210.pdf

http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/

Motor Oil Grades and Service Ratings (http://www.upmpg.com/motor_oil_rate_gas.htm)

http://www.amsoil.com/

So,

Is it safe to say that, we're paying more for less protection of our engines UNLESS we have a roller cam motor? IF that is the case, all those flat tappet cam motors now have to look for specific oils that were once the standard for motor oils just to keep their engines running right without issues?

Sounds like another deceptive way to get rid of your older car, without you knowing it, unless you're paying attention to what's really going on around here.

The cash for clunkers concept has me so baffled it unbelieveable. I go to the junk yards and find better cars in better shape than the ones people are privately selling. What a joke.

Submariner409
10-18-12, 01:40 PM
The answer to your rhetorical question "Is it safe to say ........" is already in the third paragraph of my Post #22.

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Remember: Just because this is 2012.8 and things advance and change does not mean that your 1996 engine has advanced and changed: it still needs the coolant and lubrication specs that were in effect when the engine was built.

BUT, do you think the car dealerships and Oil Doodles are going to stock drums of SH, SJ, SL, SM, and SN motor oils to conform to your engine's needs ??? Hah !!! Fat chance. If it's oily, pour it in.

Every oil blog and forum laments the changes in oil formulations - but few are willing to go the extra mile to tell you that your particular needed oil is still out there and how to find it. (and, when someone tries to advise where, when, and how to insure that a particular engine gets what it needs, they are branded as rabble rousers and witch doctors.)

CadillacLuke24
10-18-12, 02:41 PM
Like Sub said, Advances have come with time (I'm just surprised it took this long :D I remember reading something about Bobby Allison gettin' caught with roller cams in his car in NASCAR in the '70s :D).

Oil manufactuers follow the trend of most of the American public (buying new cars every 3 years or so) and release appropriate motor oils for the given current engines.

The rest of us, who have older vehicles, must shop accordingly (and typically this means buy high mileage oils or use Zinc additives).

You hit the nail squarely on the head by saying that this may be a way to make us get rid of our older cars. If we're not paying attention, our cams will wear out, and we can either rebuild the top end or go the easy route and buy a new car. Is it deliberate? Probably not. But it does capatilize on the fact that most people aren't that concerned with car maintenance.

Submariner409
10-18-12, 04:39 PM
Oil manufacturers follow the trend of most of the American public (buying new cars every 3 years or so) and release appropriate motor oils for the given current engines.

There's a hitch to that ^^^ generalization....... In large part the EPA drives oil additive formulation, the blenders comply, and the engine designers turn their hat around and come up with metals and mechanical marvels that will run with the reduced anti-scuff and anti-wear packages handed down by Big Brother. To compound the problem, mandated catalytic converter warranty periods (longer) dictated reduced phosphorus in oils, so that's a glitch.

(Same as your dishwasher detergent doesn't clean as well as it used to: Phosphorus has been eliminated in consumer detergents by the EPA. TSP - TriSodium Phosphate - is being phased off hardware store shelves as a general contractor cleaner for the same EPA reasons. Do some Google homework. Your giant government bureaucracy is concerned for your health and well-being [as well as its own life - send money])

mtflight
10-18-12, 08:51 PM
having a '99 I've been adding zddp to bring the levels up to what they were in 1996. I may have contributed to some of these "oil wars" at some point. Many thought I was crying wolf, lol. There are a couple of products that add zddp to bring 5 quarts of oil to the SH level. I add one of these at each oil change (and so it may be a little less bc of the 7.5qt capacity of our N*). Another option is having oil changes at shorter intervals, as the zddp wears over time, preventing metal-to-metal contact. maeng9981's 99 Deville's tappets and cam lobes look good, but it has had religulous oil changes every 3K miles.

I once called STP to find out how much ZDDP its additive has, and they would not reveal the amount. I suspect it doesn't have that much.

I had been using Rotella for years since it was suggested for the older engines by the guy who left. I read about the ZDDP depletion on HotRod magazine. I have also added the GM engine break-in and assembly lube, but it was more expensive. The only issue with the newer diesel oils like Rotella are all the detergents to prevent soot build-up. They may "wash" the ZDDP plating off the metal parts so it's a catch 22.

Submariner409
10-19-12, 09:39 AM
Take a look at either the JoeGibbsDriven or the AMSOIL sites for oil formulations, conventional or synthetic, that are equal to the older SH - SJ specification.

Pennzoil markets a conventional named "LongLife" - it is a HD oil, plenty of ZDDP, and comes in 10W-30 and 15W-40 viscosities. I run the 15W-40 in marine gasoline and diesel engines and it's clean, tough stuff.

Several U.S. oil companies sell a synthetic blended to "Euro" specs - it carries a decent ZDDP load and comes in 5W-30, 5W-40, and 10W-30 viscosities.

giantsfan
10-19-12, 09:09 PM
This is great info guys. I was wondering about using a high mileage oil in my car. You've pretty much answered my questions.

eldoedwardo
11-07-12, 03:16 PM
Hello everyone, @cadillacluke24,Take a look at knizefamily.net-minimopars-oilfilters......I think submariner or ranger sent me there,a good read to become a wise consumer.I personally like Bosch. If your N* has been dirty inside you may want to buy one that filters medium to small contaminates or change it sooner, if it is clean and doesn't smell 'burnt' use a finer screen like bosch...in KC they are the same price as fram,stp, and a lot better quality. EPA don't get me started, Our clean air here will be in Asia middle of the week,Americans pay the price...they don't. they can have my N* when they pry the steering wheel out of hands.

CadillacLuke24
11-07-12, 07:11 PM
Thanks for the site link :thumbsup: Looks like I'm good in the filter department (Purolater PureOne). That is definitely a good read and I'll be looking into the entire site some more.

LOL I agree. EPA stands for Enourmous Pain in the A$$. Likewise, they can have my Cadillac when they pry the steering wheel from my cold dead hands.

Submariner409
11-08-12, 10:52 AM
Use these - and look through the other links on the pages............

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/opinions.html

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/