: Put JE5 brakes on my JL9



ITSQUIK
10-06-12, 10:53 PM
Just an FYI for anybody if interested. My car has the standard JL9 brakes, if you want to upgrade to the JE5 Sport Brake's it's not that bad to do. All you need to change is the rotors, pads, calipers, & caliper brackets. They all bolt right on to the JL9 suspension.

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Just an FYI for anybody if interested. My car has the standard JL9 brakes, if you want to upgrade to the JE5 Sport Brake's it's not that bad to do. All you need to change is the rotors, pads, calipers, & caliper brackets. They all bolt right on to the JL9 suspension.

I found out the hard way when I tried installing my nice new EBC dimpled & slotted rotors & Green stuff pads & went to put the caliper bracket back on & it wouldnt reach the bolt holes on the spindle. So after a little research, I found out it wasn't that big of a deal. In total it only cost me like 400 with the EBC Goodies & she stops on a dime & picks up 9 cents change!!

ddalder
10-06-12, 11:18 PM
How do you plan to manage the differences in the EBCM software for ABS/StabiliTrak control?

ITSQUIK
10-07-12, 03:37 PM
I have a buddy that is a tech at Cadillac. He says the systems work off of the exciter ring behind the hub, so the diameter of the rotor shouldn't matter. I've been beating the crap out of it for a couple of days now & no issues as of yet. I'll post it if any problems arise.

ddalder
10-07-12, 03:47 PM
I'll be curious to know how this works. I'm not really familiar with the differences, but I spoke with an engineer I know who worked for GM. He tells me there are different properties between the braking systems and the software is calibrated for the differences associated with each system. I suspect this is mostly associated with StabiliTrak since ABS is related more to each of the wheel speed sensors. Keep us posted.

ITSQUIK
10-16-12, 09:55 PM
About 2 weeks & 600some miles into the front brake changeover. So Far, So Good!! I've had to make a couple hard stops & I've got to say the EBC Dimpled,Slotted Rotors combined with their Green Stuff Pads are really impressive!! Not to mention my car has 22's on it so there is a lot more rotating mass than stock. The EBC products have not missed a beat even under aggressive highway driving on and off the brakes at higher speeds--No Fade, just good, solid, stopping power. And as far as the ABS & Stability systems go--no lights, codes, or any other hint of any sort of issues by putting the larger brakes on the car.

ddalder
10-17-12, 01:00 AM
It's good that you haven't had any apparent problems. I don't know what the roads are like where you are, but where I am, there is a lot of winter driving and poor road conditions. I guess I'm still not sold on how well StabiliTrak would react in less desirable conditions, given your change to the engineering. If this was only about wheel speed sensors I would agree there should be no issue. With the system also factoring in data from inertial sensors, engine power and steering wheel position, I can't help but think there may be some unpredictable behavior in assisted recovery.

Ludacrisvp
10-17-12, 01:27 AM
basically expect the car to overcorrect when it uses the brakes to try and keep you on the road since the stopping power is increased

ITSQUIK
10-19-12, 10:25 PM
Luckily I'm in South Florida. No winter conditions, but Definately wet ones from time to time. Thank you for the input!! I will Definately try to keep it in mind if in a panic situation.

DarkMingBlueSTS
10-19-12, 10:36 PM
Luckily I'm in South Florida. No winter conditions, but Definately wet ones from time to time. Thank you for the input!! I will Definately try to keep it in mind if in a panic situation.

Where in fl? I'm in port st lucie...I tried to pm you but it wouldn't go through

ddalder
10-19-12, 11:01 PM
Luckily I'm in South Florida. No winter conditions, but Definately wet ones from time to time. Thank you for the input!! I will Definately try to keep it in mind if in a panic situation.
Nice :) I'd like to be in Florida too. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in lousy weather too many months of the year :(

Ludacrisvp
10-20-12, 01:19 AM
Luckily I'm in South Florida. No winter conditions, but Definately wet ones from time to time. Thank you for the input!! I will Definately try to keep it in mind if in a panic situation.

You'll likely be fine then. Just keep an eye out in those crazy wet conditions.

ITSQUIK
10-20-12, 07:56 PM
Where in fl? I'm in port st lucie...I tried to pm you but it wouldn't go through

Ft Laudy

DarkMingBlueSTS
10-20-12, 08:36 PM
Ft Laudy

Nice, I love it down there

peston
11-08-13, 04:07 AM
Anybody knows what is the difference between JL9 and JE5 bearing hubs? Maybe offset or something else? Something very special what may affect rotors position..

1BadCadSTS
11-08-13, 05:17 AM
Anybody knows what is the difference between JL9 and JE5 bearing hubs? Maybe offset or something else? Something very special what may affect rotors position..

There isn't one.

curtc
11-08-13, 09:13 AM
:yeah: They're the same

wake
11-09-13, 03:03 PM
basically expect the car to overcorrect when it uses the brakes to try and keep you on the road since the stopping power is increased

I don't think it works quite that way.

The system is made to work whether you're on dry pavement, snow/ice, or a dirt road, the car has no idea what surface you're driving on. It has to work in all traction conditions which add the same type of braking esults as your bigger/better brakes would.

ITSQUIK
11-09-13, 04:09 PM
Might as well chime in since I originally started this thread just over a year ago.

Absolutely no problems from traction or stability systems in this past year of daily driving. Many close calls & the car has always performed flawlessly!!!

Working on doing a CTS-V brake conversion now so I can keep 5 lug. I'm gonna need a whole lot more WHOA in the near future once the Twins are on!!

ddalder
11-09-13, 05:44 PM
I don't think it works quite that way.

The system is made to work whether you're on dry pavement, snow/ice, or a dirt road, the car has no idea what surface you're driving on. It has to work in all traction conditions which add the same type of braking esults as your bigger/better brakes would.
There is clearly some difference in how it responds because the software calibration is not the same between the two braking systems. Unless you know an engineer that is familiar with the two designs, your guess is as good as anyone's as to exactly what may occur. If I was ever in a collision resulting in a vehicle investigation, my insurance company would walk away laughing if they found out I started making non-endorsed brake system changes. I know that where I live, vehicles are impounded and inspected when they are involved in a very serious incident.

wake
11-09-13, 11:37 PM
There is clearly some difference in how it responds because the software calibration is not the same between the two braking systems. Unless you know an engineer that is familiar with the two designs, your guess is as good as anyone's as to exactly what may occur. If I was ever in a collision resulting in a vehicle investigation, my insurance company would walk away laughing if they found out I started making non-endorsed brake system changes. I know that where I live, vehicles are impounded and inspected when they are involved in a very serious incident.

If that's true then there are a lot of Corvette, Viper, Mustang, Camaro, etc guys running around out there risking some huge liability with their Willwood, Brembo, etc systems, not to mention the manufacturers who sell these systems as 100% compatible with the ABS and stability systems. Even GM sells performance brake upgrades for your modern vehicles. Being a Corvette guy I know the Z51 brake upgrade kit from GM is a popular update to non-Z51 cars. Throw in the aftermarket brake pads (Autozone, Napa, etc) that would also surely come into play as well since they will differ from OEM. Replacement tires (tread pattern and width) would also have to be a concern as they most certainly perform differently than the stock tires that GM designed into the performance and handling aspect.

The system should be reacting to wheel lockup, loss of traction, etc. It doesn't interfere with the vehicles yaw sensors so I'm not sure how this is going to come into play. If the system activates and detects wheel lockup it's going to release/modulate pressure until the lockup condition ceases, or increase pressure if wheelspin is detected until that condition ceases. I don't see how the calibrations can be that tight as to prevent a brake upgrade. There are just too many conditions that affect the brakes that Stabilitrack has to work in for that to make sense to me. The only inputs to the system are wheelspeed, the yaw sensor(s), brake, and throttle position. The system doesn't know the outside temperature, driving surface, wet or dry, etc.

Now in the case of accident investigation, I can clearly see improper repairs, inferior components, or neglect in repairs would put you at risk of liability. I'm about ready to replace the brake lines on my old, salt eaten winter-beater Oldsmobile. I'm seeing a lot of scary repairs out there that people publish, like using brass compression fittings to replace sections of brake line. That would definitely get you in some trouble in an accident investigation.

ddalder
11-10-13, 12:28 AM
What I'm trying to get across here is that commercially available brake upgrades from recognized companies will undoubtedly have been signed off by an engineer, or the selling company will never have been able to obtain liability insurance for potentially faulty products or designs. This is much different than individuals bolting on parts "willy-nilly" in a manner not endorsed by the OEM with an incomplete understanding of exactly what systems they may be affecting and/or the inability to compensate or correct for this. Like I said before, there is clearly some difference since the software isn't the same. I'm not a brake system engineer so I don't know exactly what the difference is. What's kept me out of trouble is that I don't mess around with safety critical systems I don't fully understand. About a year ago I did run this practice past a technical support contact I have within the GM network and he has also strongly discouraged this type of behaviour. Was it just to "toe the GM line"? Perhaps. But, perhaps not.

I'm not telling anyone not to do this, but understand that if you have a problem and your insurance provider determines that non-endorsed modifications were made, they will most likely try to put this on the insured and not pay a claim. Commercially "prepared" brake system changes with appropriate engineering approvals are a different story.

Ludacrisvp
11-10-13, 12:56 PM
So what I was suggesting was that the different calibrations likely indicate that the system has a different expected stopping power based on which brake system the car is equipped with. This would make the system likely to expect a certain duration of braking, based on the expected equipped brakes, to make the needed corrections.
Calibration for JE9 vs JL7 will likely be coded to have one of them need a longer application of pressure or an increased amount of braking pressure to get the desired effects. Now perhaps the two systems are so close in capabilities that the typical driver wouldn't notice something subtle like this.


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ddalder
11-10-13, 03:41 PM
So what I was suggesting was that the different calibrations likely indicate that the system has a different expected stopping power based on which brake system the car is equipped with. This would make the system likely to expect a certain duration of braking, based on the expected equipped brakes, to make the needed corrections.
Calibration for JE9 vs JL7 will likely be coded to have one of them need a longer application of pressure or an increased amount of braking pressure to get the desired effects. Now perhaps the two systems are so close in capabilities that the typical driver wouldn't notice something subtle like this.
My assumption is something along these lines also, just not positive. It makes sense that different calipers require different volumes of fluid and timing is likely adjusted in the EBCM for each of the valves accordingly.

wake
11-10-13, 07:07 PM
So what I was suggesting was that the different calibrations likely indicate that the system has a different expected stopping power based on which brake system the car is equipped with. This would make the system likely to expect a certain duration of braking, based on the expected equipped brakes, to make the needed corrections.
Calibration for JE9 vs JL7 will likely be coded to have one of them need a longer application of pressure or an increased amount of braking pressure to get the desired effects.

I think your suggestion is correct. However, I'm still hung up on driving conditions, like say for instance ABS functionality on dry pavement versus the first light rain in a long time when the roads are very slick as the oil sits on the surface. I would think if the system can't adapt based on different stopping power then the ABS system is only going to be functional on dry surfaces and useless on a lightly watered, oily road surface.



Now perhaps the two systems are so close in capabilities that the typical driver wouldn't notice something subtle like this.

That's what I'm thinking.

I did find a writeup about brake systems and upgrades from stock but it was giving an extreme example, one which described a very basic use of the system when replacing brakes with ones that provide 200% increased braking power as an example. I think what we're dealing with in most of our everyday driver applications with aftermarket replacements is somewhere around 10%-20% increase in braking.

The writeup (wish I could find it again) didn't take into account any changing conditions or how the system deals with low traction (water, snow, sand, etc) conditions, only what happens under ideal conditions of maximum brake application. It was decent though in how it described how the ABS system modulated the brake pressure up and down based on the other wheel's speed to avoid lockup and still allow steering.

I replaced the pads on my V shortly after buying it from the dealer (used) due to squeaking. The dealer used the cheapest, dirtiest pads they could get from a chain store. I replaced them with ceramic and the system although a little dicey the first couple of drives in the rain, the system seemed to learn the correct amount of brake force to use and performance improved. With the ceramics, the first few trips in the rain were a white knuckle experience. The first time I stepped on the wet brakes it was like I had none. and this was after I bedded them in and had a few hundred miles on them. I had to use the brakes slowly to get them to engage (drying/heating them maybe?) before they felt normal. I had to plan further ahead in the bad weather probably the first 500 or so miles. I've had a few panic stops since then at city and highway speeds and they're now great about 10K miles later.

One thing I noticed with the V's performance brakes seems to be the surface area of the pad is different. The V brakes have a tall, but not very long surface area. Seems like just as much contact area as a regular brake pad on my other vehicles with generic OEM brake systems. I wonder how much more extra performance they actually provide versus the cool factor.