: New Camaro ZL1 faster than CTS-V Coupe?



LyndellWiggins
10-04-12, 10:58 AM
That's what the Internet and motortrend magazine are telling me. Can it be so? I know it has a bigger engine but why would GM do that? What mods could put us back ahead?

6speeder
10-04-12, 11:06 AM
It's not a bigger engine, just has an enhanced intercooler. BUT, it is a lighter car which should be quicker.

Basic mods will make the CTS-V much quicker than a stock ZL1 ( pulley, tune, 160 stat and call it done).

Tedboss1
10-04-12, 11:13 AM
Have look at this:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-general-discussion/250092-little-brother-zl1-camaro-still-no.html

Xaqtly
10-04-12, 12:11 PM
The ZL1 is both lighter and has more power - in identical conditions the ZL1 should be faster. Light mods will make the CTS-V faster, but you can put those same light mods on the ZL1. The ZL1 can also lap the nurburgring almost 20 seconds a lap faster than the CTS-V. But the ZL1 is a sports car while the CTS-V is a GT car. They're not the same class of car and serve two different purposes, so it's really not worth your time to worry about the ZL1 being faster.

If you buy a ZL1, you have a Camaro. If you buy a CTS-V you have a Cadillac. That's the difference.

larry arizona
10-04-12, 12:49 PM
Ahhh pretty close in weight and 24 HP and same TQ is not a big enough difference. Boils down to driver not car.

LyndellWiggins
10-04-12, 01:26 PM
I guess Xaqtly said it best. I still want a Cadillac. But quick question: why is the camaro lighter. It's a bigger car isn't it?

baabootoo
10-04-12, 01:35 PM
The times I've read do not show it faster one bit. Trap speed tells it all.

LyndellWiggins
10-04-12, 03:04 PM
The thing that perked my interest was that today at the doctor's office MotorTrend had its 0-60 as 3.8.

larry arizona
10-04-12, 05:28 PM
camaro 2ss is 3950lbs so I have to guess the ZL1 is a 100 lbs heavier than the 2SS. 4050 versus 4200 is not a big advantage. Also the camaro is a aero wall compared to the V. Dead heat and I have not seen a Mag claim ZL1 is quicker and it certainly is not faster. V 6M = 191mph and ZL1 6M= 184mph

1997BlackETC
10-04-12, 05:46 PM
I've heard in stock form the Zl1's really are not that quick, a guy who owned a speed equipment place got one and posted the results on another forum and was only running like mid 12's in the quarter. But once modded these cars are beasts, he had the car doing mid tens within a few weeks.

thebigjimsho
10-04-12, 07:37 PM
Quite a bit quicker at the 'Ring...

larry arizona
10-04-12, 09:40 PM
They handle much better then the V due to the 3 wire MR and the 5 driving modes. 3.8 compared to 3.9 0-60. Virtual tie.

Trapspeed
10-04-12, 10:02 PM
The mere fact we are able to discuss cars that crack off sub-4 second 0-60 times right off the showroom floor at both over two tons each is mind boggling.

B T Williams
10-05-12, 08:16 AM
My 2011 CTS-V sedan (automatic transmission) in absolutely pure stock form (including Michelin PS2's) ran 12.02@ 118+ MPH, 12.03 @ 118+ MPH, 12.11 @ 117+ MPH and 12.11 @ 117+ MPH on PBIR's quarter mile track earlier this year on a less than ideal day, weather wise (85 to 91 degrees / 1500 to 1900 feet Density Altitude). That's quicker than what Chevrolet engineers could get both a manual and an automatic transmission Camaro ZL1 to run on stock tires and a cool day on a U-Tube video I watched a while back. Apparently the mild horsepower (+24) and weight (-100 pounds) advantage that ZL1's have over CtS-V's is not significant enough to make ZL1's faster, acceleration wise, than CTS-V's.

LyndellWiggins
10-05-12, 09:36 AM
My main issue is that every source I check has different times for each. I saw one spot that had the CTS-V at 4.2 on the 0-60. I guess it all comes down to how you drive.

larry arizona
10-05-12, 09:41 AM
Magazine times are often not real world. Meaning some are unrealistically faster than what a common Joe will get on the street. I am not saying that there are not great drivers on this forum that can do as well as the mag drivers, just saying its rare.

Find one race one and let us know how it goes. Real World.

garfin
10-05-12, 11:41 AM
Always interesting for me to read everyone's thoughts and opinions on the inevitable CTS-V vs. ZL1 comparisons. I certainly am happy that I chose the V rather than wait for the ZL1. As others have said repeatedly, comparable performance, but 2 very different animals...

Based on this, I found the following threads on Camaro5 interesting and thought others here might as well:

1) GM engineers were able to get both the A6 and M6 ZL1 into the 11's this spring. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221434

2) Looks like the 1st bone stock A6 broke into the 11's as well about a week ago. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252961

3) ...with a manual not far behind at 12.07 the week before. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251325 Cooler weather ought to bring times down a bit more over the next little while.

4) As well there is a website noted in one of those threads that reinforces some of the techniques in launching/shifting for M6 drivers that will help them get the best times at the strip. http://www.rangeracceleration.com/Launch_Tips.html

Best regards,

Elie

flatrockguy
10-05-12, 11:54 AM
Doesn't the ZL1 have launch control as well, which should help quite a bit over our V's..

V-swagon
10-05-12, 11:57 AM
Has anybody considered that the cars tested could have been factory freaks? I'm sure the drivers of the cars tested may have different levels of expertise. Also, there might just be slight differences in the casting of the heads or tolerance of other components to make the difference of the cars being quicker than the other in various tests. In my opinion, any car coming off the showroom floor running low 12's or quicker is just awesome. Old pushrod technology mated up with modern engineering, semi ok mpg's, and high horsepower is the best combination. Just saying.

Tedboss1
10-05-12, 12:41 PM
Each car magazine is using different method of testing cars.
For example this is how Car and Driver is doing the acceleration testing:
"To eliminate the effects of weather on performance, we employ proprietary empirical correction factors to adjust all results to dry air at 14.7 psi and 60 degrees Fahrenheit using PsyCalc 98 software (www.linric.com) to crunch the weather data. Since cars run best in cold dense air, our correction tends to add time to results generated in low-temperature, high-pressure conditions and subtract time from hot-weather, low-pressure tests. To cancel the effects of the wind, all acceleration tests are run in both directions; the best runs in each direction are then averaged.

Other car magazines simply report best times not average times with correction factors.

So you can see that it is hard to do realistic comparison when cars are tested under different condition by different drivers.

LyndellWiggins
10-05-12, 12:57 PM
Tedboss1: I did not know that. That is very interesting. And kinda misleading?

B T Williams
10-05-12, 06:43 PM
My 2011 CTS-V sedan (automatic transmission) in absolutely pure stock form (including Michelin PS2's) ran 12.02@ 118+ MPH, 12.03 @ 118+ MPH, 12.11 @ 117+ MPH and 12.11 @ 117+ MPH on PBIR's quarter mile track earlier this year on a less than ideal day, weather wise (85 to 91 degrees / 1500 to 1900 feet Density Altitude). That's quicker than what Chevrolet engineers could get both a manual and an automatic transmission Camaro ZL1 to run on stock tires and a cool day on a U-Tube video I watched a while back. Apparently the mild horsepower (+24) and weight (-100 pounds) advantage that ZL1's have over CtS-V's is not significant enough to make ZL1's faster, acceleration wise, than CTS-V's.

As GARFIN notes in his post, GM engineers did indeed get both the manual and automatic transmission ZL1's into the 11.90's after they installed drag radials. (Watch the video closely. The accompanying text on a Camaro forum incorrectly concludes that the 11.90 runs were on stock tires.) With their stock Goodyear tires, neither of ZL1's ran in the 11's and neither of them, without or with drag radials, ran over 117 MPH.

Note that the performance section of this forum indicates that stock CTS-V's have also run 11's in the quarter mile.

That said, as an experienced drag racer, I can tell you that the most important statistic regarding quarter mile performance potential of a car is MPH, not ET. All of the test data that I've seen for stock CTS-V's indicate quarter mile MPH from a low of 115 MPH to a high of 119 MPH. Likewise, all of the test data that I've seen for stock ZL1's also indicate quarter mile MPH from a low of 115 MPH to a high of 119 MPH. The MPH data clearly indicate that the performance capability of stock CTS-V's and stock ZL1's is identical.

Jinx
10-05-12, 08:00 PM
The concern here is nothing compared to the butt-hurt some base/GS Corvette owners have expressed about the ZL1.

At the end of the day, if you're all about the street (bench) race, you should be driving a Camaro, unapolagetically -- that's what it's for.

If you want the non-numeric benefits of Cadillac or Corvette ownership, you shouldn't fret over fractional stopwatch advantages of the knife-edge niche version of a ponycar.

And while it sure would be nice for mechanical improvements added to the newer ZL1 to be applied back to the earlier-program CTS-V, the numbers probably don't support the investment.

The CTS-V shouldn't be any less delicious just because Camaro went to the same gym. I certainly don't see it as any less desirable. Especially not after reading this thread. (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-general-discussion/270945-what-hidden-not-obvious-feature-your.html)

BTW, are there any third-party solutions for cooling the CTS-V rear diff?

TiredIronGRB
12-11-12, 10:06 PM
I looked at a new ZL1 today while my V-sedan was being serviced, opened the hood and really looked it over good and I was surprised that the fit and finish wasn't any better than it was. There was over-spray on the hood hardware, some of the shields and covers weren't aligned very good and the exhaust tips weren't lined up. There was also a convertible SS and it appeared flawless but if I had to keep them I wouldn't take both of them for my V.

Rule12b
12-12-12, 07:29 PM
BTW, are there any third-party solutions for cooling the CTS-V rear diff?

There are. Check the performance threads. A group buy is up for a new option, and D3 sells one as well (I run it).

Jinx
12-13-12, 04:22 AM
Thanks. I haven't settled on a V yet, but I'm getting closer, and this helps.