: Car and Driver ATS versus BMW



Trionalaw
10-03-12, 12:36 PM
I found it interesting that the ATS had much better handling and brakes because one of the shortcomings of the M3 has always been its brakes. Since the new M5 went to Brembos, I suspect the new M3 will do so as well.

I'm quite encouraged about these findings, and believe that the allegedly " sloppy/rubbery" shift action will be remedied in a V series I just came out of an E 90 M3 six speed manual. I find my CTS V coupe's manual shifter extremely good and not inferior to the M3's.

Here are some additional information. At a driving school Monday, I was talking with a driver who had a 2008 ZO6 and was clearly a track rat who told me he had been to a Cadillac event where he drove the ATS. (I forgot to ask him it was free. I assume it was. The last challenge I saw was $1920. I would think Cadillac would invite us to some challenges at no cost. But then again, maybe it thinks that since we have already become part of the family there is no reason to attempt to sell us!)

At any rate, he told me that with an instructor in the car he was told to drive the ATS as fast as he could and then hit the brakes before a very difficult corner. He was floored with how good the ATS handle the owner. The instructor then told him to wait until he entered the corner until he braked. He was absolutely astounded about how the car handled. He said it was the best family car he had ever driven.

Hopefully, if and when they produce an ATS-V, Cadillac will consider installing the five stage system that is standard on the Corvette ZR1 and can be ordered on the ZO6. I forget what it is called. I do remember an article where all the Corvettes were compared. The ZO6 had the best lap time. And the professional driver who performed the tests had better times in the stage IV of the suspension set up with still had a little bit of stability control than his times with everything shut off. I found that rather interesting.

BMW should be worried. And this comes from someone who has had an E 36, E 46 and the 90 M3.

Jim

larry arizona
10-03-12, 12:46 PM
I think BMW will be far too arrogant to fully recognize Cadillac/GM surpassing them. They already did surpass them with the CTS-V over the M5 and if the latest M5 is the answer to the V, they may have barely caught up. Now if the ATS-V surpasses the almighty M3 that says A LOT.

Now, imagine if GM were truly running apples to apples with the CTS-V vs M5 and ATS-V to M3. Meaning put the price points equal and then see how far ahead GM would blow BMW away.

its just embarrasing how well the CTS-V does for $30+K less.

Houdini
10-03-12, 01:01 PM
Well at the v series performance academy this past Sunday, I got to drive the ATS. It's a great car and I was shocked that it didn't feel cramped inside. It seemed to have the same amount of room as my cts but they said you lose 2 inches in the back seat. I'd definitely be interested in a V version of the car. When pressed for specifics on a V version, they didn't say much. A 450hp number was thrown around a bit and they said they didn't spend all that time and money developing the alpha platform for just the one car...hint hint. I'm pretty sure we're all going to be pleased with the ATS-V they end up with. The alpha platform will perform very well and is much lighter.

larry arizona
10-03-12, 01:13 PM
The Alpha is also the platform for the gen 3 CTS. So what you see in the ATS is almost identical to what you will get in the CTS. Even styling is the same just the CTS is a slightly longer wheelbase. Interiors are different between ATS/CTS however the width of the cars are identical. I would be stunned if the Gen 3 CTS is 100lbs heavier than the ATS. The ATS is for real, a V version is going to be sick and if the CTS-V stays with the LSA then OMG look out. BMW will be left in the dust.

McGuffy
10-03-12, 01:21 PM
I hope they don't vanilla up the next gen CTS-V too much. Seems that somewhat radically designed cars don't last long (the new Acura TL that I owned and loved with the "robo-beak" lasted only 1 year) - and the new CTS spy shots look a bit toned down in terms of aggressive angles etc.

I like cars that stand out from the pack without being "please look at me" loud (like that new McLaren abomination), but I know they don't sell as well. I can hope...

larry arizona
10-03-12, 01:30 PM
Fact: XTS,ATS and gen 3 CTS are all very similar in styling and less radical than gen 2 CTS. Softened edges, Long tear drop healights reaching up into hood and fender, similar grill treatments, less muscular rear qtrs. There is no doubt Caddy toned down the styling.

neuronbob
10-03-12, 02:13 PM
Fact: XTS,ATS and gen 3 CTS are all very similar in styling and less radical than gen 2 CTS. Softened edges, Long tear drop healights reaching up into hood and fender, similar grill treatments, less muscular rear qtrs. There is no doubt Caddy toned down the styling.

....which is why I'll be sticking with my Gen 2 V. Cadillac nailed the looks with this one. I haven't gotten tired of looking at it yet. We'll see at the time of official release.

And LOL at "robo-beak" on the Acura TL. I called the beak the "Power Phlegm", a play on the official name for it, the "Power Plenum".

dennych
10-03-12, 02:16 PM
ats-v wagon? one can only dream

M5eater
10-03-12, 02:23 PM
....which is why I'll be sticking with my Gen 2 V. Cadillac nailed the looks with this one. I haven't gotten tired of looking at it yet. We'll see at the time of official release.

And LOL at "robo-beak" on the Acura TL. I called the beak the "Power Phlegm", a play on the official name for it, the "Power Plenum".

everyone has varrying opinions. However, i'm pretty sure some designers from GM have been quoted as saying the V1 and V2 themes were very bold, and that they also didn't age well. I may have to agree... the V2 and 2nd gen CTS looks shocking, and it's loud, but it's also very polarizing. Polarizing is usually a death sentence. Look what 'polarizing' did to Acura..or the E60.

bottom line, the V2 will never be a classic staple of super sedan contemporary muscle like the E39 is/has been for 10+ years. I have a 510whp V2 and I *still* want an E39. that's how good it looks inside and out.

I like the ATS better than the V2. When I bought the V2 I didn't buy it because it looked good, it had to grow on me. The first words to my VW friends when I showed up in the Black car was ' I know it's a fugly thing and it's an auto. but T3H POWA!!'

Truthfully, the regular CTS's are even worse looking..


ats-v wagon? one can only dream

go import a B8 RS4.

AWD
4.2L V8
Wagon.

McGuffy
10-03-12, 02:32 PM
Interesting thoughts here. See I think the opposite - I think the CTS now has a generation-defining thing going on not unlike the pony cars of the late 60's. Cadillac wasn't even on my radar until the 2nd gen CTS, and I wasn't a buyer until the coupe. As for aging gracefully, I can't think of any particular elements that I find "trendy", though I may eat those words in a few years. I look at how well Corvette has aged and I hope for the same with these cars.

neuronbob
10-03-12, 03:35 PM
Interesting thoughts here. See I think the opposite - I think the CTS now has a generation-defining thing going on not unlike the pony cars of the late 60's. Cadillac wasn't even on my radar until the 2nd gen CTS, and I wasn't a buyer until the coupe. As for aging gracefully, I can't think of any particular elements that I find "trendy", though I may eat those words in a few years. I look at how well Corvette has aged and I hope for the same with these cars.

We think alike on this. Cadillac was never, ever on my radar until the 2G CTS. I remember the moment I fell in love with the design, now five years ago. I haven't tired of it....and I am famous in my social circle for tiring of automotive designs quickly.



Truthfully, the regular CTS's are even worse looking..

That we can agree on. The body kit for the V simply makes it bolder looking. For me, it is simply right. LOL at "T3H POWA!" :)

Like I said, we'll see when the new CTS is released.

larry arizona
10-03-12, 05:25 PM
I have seen the gen 3 CTS and its far less dramatic. I can't stand the regular gen 2 CTS front end. But the V2 is just down right mean looking. The Buick Grand National of its time.

larry arizona
10-03-12, 05:26 PM
Dont count on a V3 wagon. Coupe ATS and CTS yes

thebigjimsho
10-03-12, 06:05 PM
everyone has varrying opinions. However, i'm pretty sure some designers from GM have been quoted as saying the V1 and V2 themes were very bold, and that they also didn't age well. I may have to agree... the V2 and 2nd gen CTS looks shocking, and it's loud, but it's also very polarizing. Polarizing is usually a death sentence. Look what 'polarizing' did to Acura..or the E60.

bottom line, the V2 will never be a classic staple of super sedan contemporary muscle like the E39 is/has been for 10+ years. I have a 510whp V2 and I *still* want an E39. that's how good it looks inside and out.

I like the ATS better than the V2. When I bought the V2 I didn't buy it because it looked good, it had to grow on me. The first words to my VW friends when I showed up in the Black car was ' I know it's a fugly thing and it's an auto. but T3H POWA!!'

Truthfully, the regular CTS's are even worse looking..

go import a B8 RS4.

AWD
4.2L V8
Wagon.

The V1 is understated. Except for the grilles and wheels, it's not much different than the stock CTS. And I think it looks timeless. I'd rather have that over an E39. And I love the E39.

M5eater
10-03-12, 06:40 PM
The V1 is understated. Except for the grilles and wheels, it's not much different than the stock CTS. And I think it looks timeless. I'd rather have that over an E39. And I love the E39.

I like the V1 look a lot. Those things when slammed and cleaned up are gorgeous. The problem is that, I've always liked an E39. I had to grow to like the V1, and I'm very sorry, but the interior isn't nearly as nice as an E39. The fact that people have to replace buttons on a <10 year old car because the lettering wears off presents my point perfectly.

Purely from a looks department, the E39 wins in my book. I'd be lying if when I was considering another DD a V1 wasn't near the very top of the list, but there are a lot of things that bother me about that car and prevent it from being at the very tippy-top.

thebigjimsho
10-03-12, 09:04 PM
I like the V1 look a lot. Those things when slammed and cleaned up are gorgeous. The problem is that, I've always liked an E39. I had to grow to like the V1, and I'm very sorry, but the interior isn't nearly as nice as an E39. The fact that people have to replace buttons on a <10 year old car because the lettering wears off presents my point perfectly.

Purely from a looks department, the E39 wins in my book. I'd be lying if when I was considering another DD a V1 wasn't near the very top of the list, but there are a lot of things that bother me about that car and prevent it from being at the very tippy-top.

The BMW might have a nicer appearance inside, but over time, I appreciated the V's ergonomics. It's better than you think...

JimmyH
10-03-12, 09:13 PM
The 3rd gen CTS-V is gonna shine. Take the V2, give it the ATS' tech, subtract 500 lbs, and watch it utterly, and completely destroy the M5.

My predictions:

ATS-V; 3500 lbs, 450 hp TT V6.
CTS-V; 3800 lbs, 580 hp LSA.

ATS and ATS-V sedan, coupe and convertible
CTS and CTS-V sedan and wagon

M5eater
10-03-12, 09:16 PM
The BMW might have a nicer appearance inside, but over time, I appreciated the V's ergonomics. It's better than you think...

I would agree it's possible perceptions change after living with the real thing for a few months. Certinally my V2 experience has proven the concept.

I thought the console height for the shifter in the V was WAY too high. Now I'm used to it and it seems just fine for me. The only regret I have of the V2 is that it lacks folding rear seats. IDK wtf GM was thinking not putting folding seats in a 70K vehicle. It boggles my mind.

My problem is more associated with quality rather than ergonomics though.
The way the seats are bolstered in the M5 and flat as a pancake in the V. And by god it doesn't have those STUPID integrated seatbelts that remind me of my grandma's DTS (or something similarly old) *and* condemn me to an eternity of those flat seats(because if it didn't have it there I could have swapped for aftermarket)..

The way the center stack looks like something from a corvette (in a not-so-nice way) in the V but looks slightly more upscale in the M5.

The way there's actual aluminum trim in the M5 but only acres of black textured plastic in the Cadillac.

Honestly? I don't know which I would choose if I *had* to pick just one car to replace the V2 with. I layed all the pro's/cons out a while ago, I think I was leaning twoard the V more because I'm a hot-rodder at heart, but it wasn't without lengthy consideration. Fuel economy and maintenance costs were a big factor too.



The 3rd gen CTS-V is gonna shine. Take the V2, give it the ATS' tech, subtract 500 lbs, and watch it utterly, and completely destroy the M5.
it's going to need every last piece of win it can muster.

Because the F10 is keeping up with C6 Z06's with tunes;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ5bG81c6Sw

JimmyH
10-03-12, 09:16 PM
Oh, and I think the CTS is going to have the ATS more reserved styling. It has to be if it's going to be a global car. America and most of Europe like flashy styling. The rest of the world does not. GM is really looking to move these cars in China. Look at the big, dull Buicks that sell like hotcakes there. I think the ATS is the perfect balance between classy and flashy.

M5eater
10-03-12, 09:24 PM
Oh, and I think the CTS is going to have the ATS more reserved styling. It has to be if it's going to be a global car. America and most of Europe like flashy styling. The rest of the world does not. GM is really looking to move these cars in China. Look at the big, dull Buicks that sell like hotcakes there. I think the ATS is the perfect balance between classy and flashy.

The CTS will be even more reserved than the ATS. similar to how the 3 series is more edgy than the 5 series, and A4 than A6.. ect.


Cadillac is going for the german theme of small cars for young people, larger cars for older people.

larry arizona
10-03-12, 10:29 PM
convert is cancelled and no wagon, coupe and sedan for both A and C.

McGuffy
10-03-12, 10:35 PM
Shame if they Germanize - that Cadillac isn't all rounded and smooth is what I like most about them.

thebigjimsho
10-03-12, 10:49 PM
I would agree it's possible perceptions change after living with the real thing for a few months. Certinally my V2 experience has proven the concept.

I thought the console height for the shifter in the V was WAY too high. Now I'm used to it and it seems just fine for me. The only regret I have of the V2 is that it lacks folding rear seats. IDK wtf GM was thinking not putting folding seats in a 70K vehicle. It boggles my mind.

My problem is more associated with quality rather than ergonomics though.
The way the seats are bolstered in the M5 and flat as a pancake in the V. And by god it doesn't have those STUPID integrated seatbelts that remind me of my grandma's DTS (or something similarly old) *and* condemn me to an eternity of those flat seats(because if it didn't have it there I could have swapped for aftermarket)..

The way the center stack looks like something from a corvette (in a not-so-nice way) in the V but looks slightly more upscale in the M5.

The way there's actual aluminum trim in the M5 but only acres of black textured plastic in the Cadillac.

Honestly? I don't know which I would choose if I *had* to pick just one car to replace the V2 with. I layed all the pro's/cons out a while ago, I think I was leaning twoard the V more because I'm a hot-rodder at heart, but it wasn't without lengthy consideration. Fuel economy and maintenance costs were a big factor too.

it's going to need every last piece of win it can muster.

Because the F10 is keeping up with C6 Z06's with tunes;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ5bG81c6Sw

Indeed, going from V1 seats to Recaros was huge! But the seats are better than the new base seats. They are comfortable.

As for the dash, the V may have had that pebbled plastic, but it looked "friendlier" than the Bimmer. The E39 looks dour inside. The V wears well over time. I think the tan interior helped a lot...

JimmyH
10-03-12, 11:43 PM
convert is cancelled and no wagon, coupe and sedan for both A and C.

It wasn't cancelled. It just probably won't be called an ATS. There IS a four seater Alpha convertible coming though. Confirmed by GM.

A CTS wagon isn't 100% for sure, but GM has already stated the current CTS and CTS-V wagon are a success (meaning they didn't lose money on it) There will almost certainly be a 3rd gen. And given almost a third of CTS wagons are V, that's a safe bet too.

larry arizona
10-04-12, 08:12 AM
well gm has not sourced the convert or wagon programs to the suppliers so if they exist it will be 2016 or later.

JimmyH
10-04-12, 02:18 PM
I am certain it will be 2016 before an Alpha vert or wagon make it to production. 2013 is the ATS sedan. 2014 will be the CTS sedan, and maybe the ATS-V. 2015 will probably be the ATS coupe, and CTS-V. 2016 will probably be the vert and wagons. jmo.

larry arizona
10-04-12, 09:45 PM
Checked at work today and 2015 A1AL ATS coupe and 2015 A1BL CTS coupe are sourced. No vert or wagon sourced yet which means its getting late for a 2016 model.2013 ATS 2014 ATS-V 2014 CTS sedan 2015 CTS-V.

neuronbob
10-04-12, 11:45 PM
^^^
Thanks for the info. Next time I'm in Detroit, the beer's on me. :thumbsup:

DPL
10-06-12, 12:10 PM
I've owned an e39 and a V1 before my V2 and the V1 wins hands down when it comes to character. I miss my V1.

JimmyH
10-06-12, 02:16 PM
The V1 was very special. You're right. It had character that current performance cars are lacking.

garfin
10-07-12, 10:53 AM
It wasn't cancelled. It just probably won't be called an ATS. There IS a four seater Alpha convertible coming though. Confirmed by GM.



...and I'd wager that model also starts with a "C".:yup:

Best regards,

Elie

JimmyH
10-08-12, 04:38 PM
CTS? Maybe. Though I doubt it. There are numerous articles all over the internet, from as shady as Jalopnik, to as reliable as Edmunds, where GM execs have stated the 3rd gen CTS is very likely going to be sedan and wagon, the ATS will be sedan and coupe. While there will be some sort of vert to compete with the 3-series and C-class verts. I can't see them doing that and making a larger vert to compete with the 6-series. At least not yet.

garfin
10-08-12, 04:54 PM
CTS? Maybe. Though I doubt it. There are numerous articles all over the internet, from as shady as Jalopnik, to as reliable as Edmunds, where GM execs have stated the 3rd gen CTS is very likely going to be sedan and wagon, the ATS will be sedan and coupe. While there will be some sort of vert to compete with the 3-series and C-class verts. I can't see them doing that and making a larger vert to compete with the 6-series. At least not yet.

Heh, heh... I was thinking Chevrolet Camaro, since it seems (just a hunch, of course :canttalk:) that the 6th Gen Camaro might also be built on the Alpha platform.

Best regards,

Elie

M5eater
10-08-12, 05:05 PM
Heh, heh... I was thinking Chevrolet Camaro, since it seems (just a hunch, of course :canttalk:) that the 6th Gen Camaro might also be built on the Alpha platform.

Best regards,

Elie

Ohh she got you there jimmy..

larry arizona
10-08-12, 06:25 PM
6th gen camaro IS on the ALPHA platform FACT.

JimmyH
10-08-12, 08:49 PM
and they claim there will be a Camaro6 vert.

And Elie is a he, not a she :lol:
If not, she's one ugly woman (no offense Elie :D)

M5eater
10-08-12, 08:53 PM
and they claim there will be a Camaro6 vert.

And Elie is a he, not a she :lol:
If not, she's one ugly woman (no offense Elie :D)
That was the joke.


>_> ?

garfin
10-08-12, 11:19 PM
and they claim there will be a Camaro6 vert.

And Elie is a he, not a she :lol:
If not, she's one ugly woman (no offense Elie :D)

ROTFLMAO!
Believe me, I've been called much, much worse! :shhh:

Best regards,

Elie