: Lease Numbers ?



DG2
09-18-12, 01:45 PM
I was just curious what type of lease deals anybody was getting for the 3.6 ATS4 ?

ben.gators
09-19-12, 06:25 AM
Leasing is normally a plan B for manufacturers and dealers and it is normally used to get rid of older models. If there is enough demand for a model and dealers can sell a car for MSRP or even above and have a good profit, why they need to accept the hassles of leasing? Even if they do, numbers will not be very reasonable. These days Cadillac is giving the best leasing deals for 2012 CTS models. There is no lease offer on 2013 model years (at least in my area based on Cadillac website). Do you see? Cadillac is using leasing offers to get rid of old model years.

Aggression
09-19-12, 08:08 AM
Leasing is normally a plan B for manufacturers and dealers and it is normally used to get rid of older models. If there is enough demand for a model and dealers can sell a car for MSRP or even above and have a good profit, why they need to accept the hassles of leasing? Even if they do, numbers will not be very reasonable. These days Cadillac is giving the best leasing deals for 2012 CTS models. There is no lease offer on 2013 model years (at least in my area based on Cadillac website). Do you see? Cadillac is using leasing offers to get rid of old model years.

This couldn't be more wrong. More than half of the US Luxury segment is a lease, with some German companies as high as 75%. Cadillac gets paid by the bank whether its a lease or a straight buy out. Lease incentives are offered by Cadillac or the banks in order to make up for poor residual values or low sales numbers. Model years and "hassle" of a lease has ZERO to do with it.

ben.gators
09-19-12, 09:11 AM
Yes, "More than half of the US Luxury segment is a lease, with some German companies as high as 75%. ", and that is how BMW and MB keep the sales number high! Basically car makers are leasing cars because there is not enough demand to buy!

But leasing can be very risky for car makers, because the company needs to take back the car after the lease expires. So what if the car loses its value more than it was anticipated? This will be the company's loss. If the car keeps its value, there is a very good chance that the customer will keep the car. So this is just car maker's gamble. Now compare this with selling the car. You or your bank write the check and give it to the dealership and that is the end of the story. The car maker and the dealer get the money with no risk involved and now you need to deal with depreciation of the value of the car.

Who knows how well or badly ATS will keep its value over time? On top of it, at the end of the lease period, dealerships need to take back the cars, do the inspections, buy the car or ship it back to the Cadillac. I call the risk management and the return process and shipment a hassle! That is why I say that if there is enough demand to buy a car, there is no point in leasing. Luxury car makers have been leasing cars because there is not enough demand to buy!


Right now there is a huge demand for ATS, so there is no point to lease the car, when you can sell it for MSRP or even above. Eventually there will be good leasing offers on ATS, but not now...
I hope this helps, Mr. Aggression with a single post so far!

Aggression
09-19-12, 09:46 AM
Yes, "More than half of the US Luxury segment is a lease, with some German companies as high as 75%. ", and that is how BMW and MB keep the sales number high! Basically car makers are leasing cars because there is not enough demand to buy!

But leasing can be very risky for car makers, because the company needs to take back the car after the lease expires. So what if the car loses its value more than it was anticipated? This will be the company's loss. If the car keeps its value, there is a very good chance that the customer will keep the car. So this is just car maker's gamble. Now compare this with selling the car. You or your bank write the check and give it to the dealership and that is the end of the story. The car maker and the dealer get the money with no risk involved and now you need to deal with depreciation of the value of the car.

Who knows how well or badly ATS will keep its value over time? On top of it, at the end of the lease period, dealerships need to take back the cars, do the inspections, buy the car or ship it back to the Cadillac. I call the risk management and the return process and shipment a hassle! That is why I say that if there is enough demand to buy a car, there is no point in leasing. Luxury car makers have been leasing cars because there is not enough demand to buy!


Right now there is a huge demand for ATS, so there is no point to lease the car, when you can sell it for MSRP or even above. Eventually there will be good leasing offers on ATS, but not now...
I hope this helps, Mr. Aggression with a single post so far!

Ship the car back to Cadillac? Do you read what you just typed? Sending a USED car back to the manufacturer. Hmmm…

Leasing is simply paying the depreciation of the vehicle. You STILL negotiate price, whether MSRP or how ever much over invoice before telling a dealership that you’d like to lease it. When you say a dealer has to “take it back”, this also is simply not the case, hence why there are competitors offering Conquest Cash for competeing models. And to say that BMW and Benz simply lease because there is NOT enough demand for them is absurd. They are the best selling luxury brands on the planet, and leasing works VERY well for them because their customers get all the luxury car they want, and then turn in their lease where BMW and Benz can THEN sell pre-owned and make another large profit. AND with BMW residual values far exceeding any other luxury brand (in the high 60’s for many vehicles) leasing ends up being a great option for them. And where do you get this notion that there is a “huge demand” for the ATS? Simply by the post’s made on this site? Until the MY has run a full course, you cannot do anything but “speculate”, and that’s how banks set residuals for cars.

I would rather make ONE educated post then a bunch of bags of air.

DG2
09-19-12, 09:53 AM
Ship the car back to Cadillac? Do you read what you just typed? Sending a USED car back to the manufacturer. Hmmm…

Leasing is simply paying the depreciation of the vehicle. You STILL negotiate price, whether MSRP or how ever much over invoice before telling a dealership that you’d like to lease it. When you say a dealer has to “take it back”, this also is simply not the case, hence why there are competitors offering Conquest Cash for competeing models. And to say that BMW and Benz simply lease because there is NOT enough demand for them is absurd. They are the best selling luxury brands on the planet, and leasing works VERY well for them because their customers get all the luxury car they want, and then turn in their lease where BMW and Benz can THEN sell pre-owned and make another large profit. AND with BMW residual values far exceeding any other luxury brand (in the high 60’s for many vehicles) leasing ends up being a great option for them. And where do you get this notion that there is a “huge demand” for the ATS? Simply by the post’s made on this site? Until the MY has run a full course, you cannot do anything but “speculate”, and that’s how banks set residuals for cars.

I would rather make ONE educated post then a bunch of bags of air.

Well said. Not sure where this guy is coming from but Cadillac MUST offer some great lease numbers on ATS in order to complete the mission of taking BMW sales. I can lease a nicely loaded 3 Series for $325 !

2004ctsv
09-19-12, 09:56 AM
Why are there no leases available in western Pennsylvania?
I wonder if GM might not know what the car value will be 3 years out?

Sozburger
09-19-12, 09:58 AM
For what it's worth I went to the dealer last night and she gave me some vague leasing numbers. She said the Residual was in the low 60's but the money factor was around 4 which she admits it very high. She thinks it should drop to 2 or under after a bit which should make the deal better. For a fully loaded Premium V6 AWD (basically everything but the Driver Assist) it stickered at around 51k and the lease deal she said was $698 plus tax. This was calculated at full MSRP and at a money factor of 4.

ben.gators
09-19-12, 10:03 AM
Ship the car back to Cadillac? Do you read what you just typed? Sending a USED car back to the manufacturer. Hmmm…

Yes, sir! When you return back your leased Cadilalc, the dealership has the option to buy it from the Cadillac company, or hand it back to Cadillac. Cadillac may send such cars to auctions, I am not sure! One month ago I was in my local Cadillac dealership to discuss lease offers and that is what they told me. There was a CTS-V there, which was a returned leased car, and they were going to ship it back to the mainland, because the dealership didn't want to take it.

And yes, BMW keeps its value very well, but here we are speaking about Cadillacs and a new model.



I would rather make ONE educated post then a bunch of bags of air.


LOL

ben.gators
09-19-12, 10:11 AM
Well said. Not sure where this guy is coming from

LOL


but Cadillac MUST offer some great lease numbers on ATS in order to complete the mission of taking BMW sales.

I totally agree! Cadillac needs to give very good lease offers on ATS to be able to keep up with BMW and 3 series. My earlier post was just about timing. It may take couple of months or even one year to see good lease offers on ATS.

By the way, $325 for a nicely loaded 3 series is wonderful! I was checking their lease offers and the best I could find for a nicely loaded 3 series was about $500.

Aggression
09-19-12, 10:54 AM
Yes, sir! When you return back your leased Cadilalc, the dealership has the option to buy it from the Cadillac company, or hand it back to the Cadillac. Cadillac may send such cars to auctions, I am not sure! One month ago I was in my local Cadillac dealership to discuss lease offers and that is what they told me. There was a CTS-V there, which was a returned leased car, and they were going to ship it back to the mainland, because the dealership didn't want to take it.

And yes, BMW keeps its value very well, but here we are speaking about Cadillacs and a new model.




LOL


You LOL at me, but you my friend should LOL at yourself for the following two reasons:

1. You listened to a car salesman (who is trying to sell you a product).
2. Your car salesman is wrong. But hey, he said it, so it must be true, right?

ben.gators
09-19-12, 11:11 AM
You LOL at me, but you my friend should LOL at yourself for the following two reasons:

1. You listened to a car salesman (who is trying to sell you a product).
2. Your car salesman is wrong. But hey, he said it, so it must be true, right?

I LOL at you because you made a personal attack:

I would rather make ONE educated post then a bunch of bags of air.


That is how I reply to personal attacks in forums, my friend! LOL

OK, lets assume I am totally wrong in this thread, and everything I posted here was completely false, and I am the worst car shopper in the world who can be easily fooled by salseman. OK, I happily accept that, no problem, but there is no need for rudeness or personal attack, Mr Aggression!

Atswatcher
09-19-12, 11:57 AM
GM has said they need good leases on ATS to raise the lease %, but for now don't expect much lease support. Give it at least two months.

EnvoyBu
09-19-12, 01:03 PM
I was quoted $538.00 per month on a Luxury 3.6L AWD with navigation, cold weather package, and sunroof. The number is with zero down and for 36 months with 10,000 miles per year.

Sozburger
09-19-12, 01:34 PM
I was quoted $538.00 per month on a Luxury 3.6L AWD with navigation, cold weather package, and sunroof. The number is with zero down and for 36 months with 10,000 miles per year.

Sorry, I didn't specify. The lease offer I got was for 39 months, $2,000 down and 12k miles per year.

thebigjimsho
09-19-12, 02:15 PM
By the way, $325 for a nicely loaded 3 series is wonderful! I was checking their lease offers and the best I could find for a nicely loaded 3 series was about $500.

Yeah, I haven't seen anything close to as low as $325...

DG2
09-19-12, 03:14 PM
Not a bad deal

ben.gators
09-19-12, 08:57 PM
I was quoted $538.00 per month on a Luxury 3.6L AWD with navigation, cold weather package, and sunroof. The number is with zero down and for 36 months with 10,000 miles per year.

Not bad at all! Can you remember the residual and the MSRP?

EnvoyBu
09-19-12, 09:57 PM
To be honest, I forgot the residual, but MSRP was a hair over $47,000.

ben.gators
09-19-12, 10:11 PM
Thanks for sharing! You have got a very good offer on that car! I guess based on these numbers, residual should be in the mid 60's, not sure...

DG2
09-19-12, 10:56 PM
Yeah, I haven't seen anything close to as low as $325...

Not that I am seriously looking at the 3 but I have seen them leasing in the $300 plus range. I am sure the fine print shows a $4,000 cap cost plus taxes.

Atswatcher
09-20-12, 01:36 AM
I was quoted $538.00 per month on a Luxury 3.6L AWD with navigation, cold weather package, and sunroof. The number is with zero down and for 36 months with 10,000 miles per year.

Does the payment include sales tax?

gort
09-20-12, 02:07 PM
I was quoted $538.00 per month on a Luxury 3.6L AWD with navigation, cold weather package, and sunroof. The number is with zero down and for 36 months with 10,000 miles per year.

That's not bad at all. I'd like to +1 the previous question regarding sales tax. $538 with nothing out of pocket up front is not bad at all.

EnvoyBu
09-20-12, 08:45 PM
Yup, price included with tax and everything. Total due at signing was around $800 which included first month's payment, security deposit, taxes on derp, and other stuff I don't know lol.

Atswatcher
09-20-12, 09:23 PM
Total due at signing was around $800 which included first month's payment, security deposit, taxes on derp, and other stuff I don't know lol.

That sounded a little too good to be true. Was that an actual deal or just verbal? $538/mo. including tax with no down is still a great lease deal. If true at this early stage, they can move a lot of ATSs.

EnvoyBu
09-20-12, 09:27 PM
That sounded a little too good to be true. Was that an actual deal or just verbal? $538/mo. including tax with no down is still a great lease deal. If true at this early stage, they can move a lot of ATSs.

That price was an actual deal. Had I said yes, I would have driven home in an ATS, but then my stupid lease got in the way. :(

To be honest, I think that a Premium ATS should be around that much. Fair price for it. Luxury V6 should be in the high fours IMHO.

Atswatcher
09-20-12, 09:36 PM
That price was an actual deal. Had I said yes, I would have driven home in an ATS, but then my stupid lease got in the way. :(

To be honest, I think that a Premium ATS should be around that much. Fair price for it. Luxury V6 should be in the high fours IMHO.

The 3.6 AWD with navi should have an MSRP over $50k, $800 drive off and $538 including tax is a great lease for such MSRP. Lease is a lot different than financing, to get the above numbers, they have to have very high residual, and very good lease rate, assume there are no other incentives at this early stage.

Ok I did a quick build, the minimum with your options is $47k. Still not bad at this early stage. Usually lease numbers tend to get better after inventory piles up.

JimmyH
09-20-12, 10:02 PM
Since when do BMW hold their value well? Brand new, a 328 is around $52k. I just looked, 1 year old, around $42k. 2 year old, around $34k. And those are all low mileage examples.

Aggression
09-20-12, 10:36 PM
Since when do BMW hold their value well? Brand new, a 328 is around $52k. I just looked, 1 year old, around $42k. 2 year old, around $34k. And those are all low mileage examples.

Were these 2011 MY? If so, they are a different model. (E90 vs F30).

JimmyH
09-20-12, 10:54 PM
2013. 2012. 2011.

I bet if you ask BMW owners the significance of E90 vs F30, 99% of them would be lost.

Aggression
09-20-12, 10:57 PM
2013. 2012. 2011.

I bet if you ask BMW owners the significance of E90 vs F30, 99% of them would be lost.

I agree. When I had my M3, and asked someone who I thought was a car guy what kind of BMW they had, they would reply back "A black one". I'd shake my head and walk away.

Atswatcher
09-21-12, 10:22 AM
2013. 2012. 2011.

I bet if you ask BMW owners the significance of E90 vs F30, 99% of them would be lost.

But those who are comparing ATS to their BMWs are likely more knowledgeable.:)

gort
09-21-12, 11:14 AM
That price was an actual deal. Had I said yes, I would have driven home in an ATS, but then my stupid lease got in the way. :(

To be honest, I think that a Premium ATS should be around that much. Fair price for it. Luxury V6 should be in the high fours IMHO.

Wow. Maybe I need to go visit my local dealer once they get some in to see what they can do...

EnvoyBu
09-21-12, 12:57 PM
The 3.6 AWD with navi should have an MSRP over $50k, $800 drive off and $538 including tax is a great lease for such MSRP. Lease is a lot different than financing, to get the above numbers, they have to have very high residual, and very good lease rate, assume there are no other incentives at this early stage.

Ok I did a quick build, the minimum with your options is $47k. Still not bad at this early stage. Usually lease numbers tend to get better after inventory piles up.

Yep. The one I got priced was a $47,000 car. I think I'll hold off for a few more months so I can sneak a Premium for the same price...

Atswatcher
09-21-12, 04:14 PM
Yep. The one I got priced was a $47,000 car. I think I'll hold off for a few more months so I can sneak a Premium for the same price...

That would be about $50,400 MSRP. It would be nice to get that payment for it.

ben.gators
09-22-12, 06:20 AM
Price depreciation plays a very important role in lease offers. Lease payments need to at least cover the depreciation of the car over the time of the lease.

Cadillac is not very good at holding its value. My Seville STS lost more than 50% of its value in about two years! It seems that the newer models do a little bit better. For example, I think second gen CTS keeps more than 50% of its value after 3 years. In comparison to Cadillac, BMW does a little bit better.

Sure enough, Cadillac will be able to lease tons of new ATSs if it gives very competitive lease offers! But this strategy can come back and bite Cadillac, if the actual value of the returned leased cars become very lower than the initial estimated residual value.

As a consumer, I love to see lease offers of $538/month with $0 down, and I would be even happier, if Cadillac gives $199/month with $0 down offers. But I am not sure Cadillac can remain in the business with such lease offers... Leasing is very tricky, you set the residual value to a safe and low number, and you will not be able to lease your cars. Use very optimistic and high residual value, and you may end up with big losses. I am eager to see how Cadillac will throw the dice....

But we know one thing for sure:

Piled up inventory=> Better lease offers
Older model year=> Better lease offers



^^^
FYI for some people: This is just my $0.02, and I can be very wrong!

Atswatcher
09-22-12, 12:59 PM
For this segment, good leases determine your success. The drivers are younger and more likely to keep cars for short time so they get the latest, and can switch to try new brands/models every few years. If Caddy is serious about competing, they need to get with the program.

Cisitalia
10-17-12, 09:00 PM
Talked to a dealer on a premium V6, 10k miles/year, 39 months and the MF=0.0009 with a 59% residual. Residual seems low to me but an interest rate of 2.16% is not to bad. MSRP was $51,480 with first month payment upfront of $583 and $583 per month for 39 months. This does not include sales tax.

Anyone else have some data points?

Atswatcher
10-18-12, 03:22 AM
Talked to a dealer on a premium V6, 10k miles/year, 39 months and the MF=0.0009 with a 59% residual. Residual seems low to me but an interest rate of 2.16% is not to bad. MSRP was $51,480 with first month payment upfront of $583 and $583 per month for 39 months. This does not include sales tax.

Anyone else have some data points?

If this is the US Bank's lease, according to Edmunds, the rate is 0.0006. The dealer marked it up a little, although it should raise the monthly payment by only $25. What was the selling price?

Cisitalia
10-18-12, 09:46 PM
The dealership did not indicate where those numbers came from bank wise or GMC finance. The sales price of the car was $49,149 or about $700 above invoice. Plus doc fee, acqusision fee and tag/title for a total of $50,289. They gave me most of the numbers and I backed out the rest. Keep in mind this was the first offer for me to think about it. ;-)

Could you please explain more about the US Bank option and Edmunds information?

investor74
10-18-12, 10:54 PM
The Cadillac web site has the 2.5L ATS for $329/mo. for 24 months, $3459 at signing, 20K total miles.

http://www.cadillac.com/tools/currentoffers/results.do?brand=ats&year=2013

Atswatcher
10-18-12, 11:44 PM
The dealership did not indicate where those numbers came from bank wise or GMC finance. The sales price of the car was $49,149 or about $700 above invoice. Plus doc fee, acqusision fee and tax/tag/title for a total of $50,289. They gave me most of the numbers and I backed out the rest. Keep in mind this was the first offer for me to think about it. ;-)

Could you please explain more about the US Bank option and Edmunds information?

Go to Edmunds site check out the Forums section and select Cadillac/ATS. Ally's (GMC) rate is 4%, or 0.00167, US Bank's rate is 1.44% or 0.0006. If you got a rate of 0.0009, it has to be the US Bank's lease program, or some other bank, just not Ally. Did the monthly payment include sales tax?

Cisitalia
10-19-12, 10:39 PM
I indicated I backed out the sales tax, so the $583 was w/o sales tax. So the better MF as you said reduces it $25/month. I think better could be had; like $540 w/o sales tax. I certainly hope so. GM should be aggressive and put some cars on the road w/incentives and see where it goes. Thanks for the Edmunds information.

jeremy stanke
11-10-12, 06:32 PM
I just left my dealer, he offered me a 2.5 base with sunroof and $800 wheel option for $1295 down plus tax and fees for $295 a month. 39 months and 12k a year. Is this a good deal or should I push for better? I bought a cts coupe from him in July so he should work with me.