: Need oversize timesert kit



Fiero STS
12-13-04, 01:04 PM
Well things just go from bad to worse, after installing all new timeserts in block I was installing cylinder heads. First head went on without a problem. head torqued up fine. Second head was not nearly as fun while doing the final torque on bolt number 6 there was a snap and the bolt got loose. Removed head and found the timesert pulled out. Now I need to find a kit to install the oversize timesert to repair this hole, plus a new head gasket and set of bolts. Any help would be appreciated.

mcowden
12-13-04, 03:55 PM
The gasket and bolts I don't know about, but the Bigsert is probably what you will need for the one that pulled out:

http://www.matthodel.com/portfolio/timesert/bigsert.htm

Are the bolt and gasket definitely in need of replacement? I've never done that before, so maybe I sound like an idiot, but to me it seems like the bolts should be reusable if they went into Timeserts before. Was the gasket visibly damaged?

M C
:cheers:

Fiero STS
12-13-04, 08:20 PM
I know I need the big sert kit but I can't see spending 350 bucks for one hole. Also the head bolts are torque to yield so they have been streched so they need to be replaced. the gasket was compressed for the most part. So I really don't want to try and reuse it as these engines are prone to gasket failure to begin with. I am looking to see if someone has a bigsert kit I could use for one hole.

haymaker
12-13-04, 08:25 PM
Well things just go from bad to worse, after installing all new timeserts in block I was installing cylinder heads. First head went on without a problem. head torqued up fine. Second head was not nearly as fun while doing the final torque on bolt number 6 there was a snap and the bolt got loose. Removed head and found the timesert pulled out. Now I need to find a kit to install the oversize timesert to repair this hole, plus a new head gasket and set of bolts. Any help would be appreciated.
Fiero STS.

You may get lucky and find someone on the forum that has one they no longer need if not you can find the correct second repair kit here. http://www.timesert.com/misc.html

What torque, torque angle numbers did you use? Was the need for the time-sert installation because of a blown head gasket if so was the failed time-sert on the side that had the blown head gasket?

If I were faced with the problem you now have, I would continue the head bolt tightening sequence to completion just for my own piece of mind. In other words I would want to test the remainder of the inserts rather than stopping here, repairing the one failed insert only to find the next time-sert in sequence #7 failed as you were installing the second new head gasket and second new set of head bolts.

Fiero STS
12-13-04, 08:34 PM
Torque was 22 ft. lbs. +60 degrees then additional 60 degrees then an additonal 60 degrees. For a total of 180 degrees. The engine was used and had a blown head gasket. Disassembled and cleaned entire engine. Installed all timeserts in both banks. The side with the failed gasket is the one that torqued up ok. I think that possibly the other gasket may have been replaced before.

BeelzeBob
12-13-04, 09:44 PM
Contrary to popular belief the Northstar head bolts are really not torque to yield fasteners..... The bolts will stretch very slightly (permanently) but they are good for probably 10 rundowns before any perceptable yield would occur that would render them unusable.

In fact, new bolts are run down and then loosened in the plant in the normal operation tensioning the head bolts. The pre-tensioning step actuall subjects the bolts to more tension then the final tightening step.... This is done to burnish the threads in the block as they have never seen bolts in them before the heads are installed and the head bolts tensioned. The aluminum threads need to be "worked" once before the final tensioning step so the head bolts are run down, loosened and then re-tensioned. If you started with new bolts on your reassembly then you have only done the equivalent of the first pre-tensioning step on the bolts. Use them, they will be fine. Re-using a new bolt that has been run down one time is not the same as re-using a bolt that was in the engine for 100K.......

The instructions to not reuse old head bolts is primarily because the bolts when new have a special microencapsulated coating on the threads and under the head of the bolt. The coatings act as a high pressure lubricant during tensioning and then a thread locker once installed. On a simple run down and loosening without running the engine the bolts can be "used" several times. Once the bolts see a lot of time and thermal cycling in the engine the coatings are rendered unusable again so the bolts have to be replaced as there is no repeatable means or reapplying the special coatings in the field.

If you simply installed the head with a new gasket and new bolts and pulled a timesert out and dissassembled the head the bolts are fine to use again and so is the gasket. If the head gasket was not used in the running engine and subjected to any thermal cycles it is fine. The gasket will compress permanently somewhat when torqued into place....that does not ruin it. I have seen LOTS of head gaskets run down and loosened and re-run down and continued on test fine. As long as the gasket did not stick and tear when dissassembly the gasket is perfectly fine to re-use. It has just been "pre-compressed" much as it is done in the above mentioned pre-tensioning step to condition the head bolt holes. That is done with the gasket in place so the gasket sees the compression and then relaxation in production.

With the compacted graphite gaskets it is sometimes necessary to pre-compress the gasket and even heat it during compression prior to installing it into the engine. So, simply compressing the gasket to the installed load does not hurt or ruin it. If, however, the gasket is held under load and thermal cycled in the engine it will not be reusable. That is because the thermal cycling subjects the gasket to even more load that would cause it to be deformed beyond recovery if relaxed.


Unfortunate that a timesert pulled out. A bigsert should fix the problem for sure. At least you can reuse the new gasket and bolts with no concerns.

Fiero STS
12-14-04, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the info. now to find a bigzert kit,so its off to ebay I guess.

BeelzeBob
12-14-04, 04:47 PM
Thanks for the info. now to find a bigzert kit,so its off to ebay I guess.


since you will not accept private messages I cannot set you up with a relay of information for help.....

Fiero STS
12-15-04, 09:27 AM
I guess I don't know how to change any settings, they are the default settings. What do I do to change to accept private messages?

BeelzeBob
12-15-04, 01:54 PM
Go to your personal profile and enable the private message option....

Fiero STS
12-15-04, 05:49 PM
I get this.
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Fiero STS, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

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BeelzeBob
12-16-04, 12:48 AM
Don't know what the problem is. Usually you can access your personal profile page to enable private messaging. It still is not working so.....

Contact me at bbobynski@hotmail.com

Fiero STS
12-16-04, 09:21 AM
Don't know what the problem is. Usually you can access your personal profile page to enable private messaging. It still is not working so.....

Contact me at bbobynski@hotmail.com


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