: Question about shifting, trouble shifting, double clutching, etc...



Zhariak
09-09-12, 04:01 PM
Since I got my new V-Coupe 6MT, I've had a few issues, most taken care of. Wondering if this is also one... (This is the first standard vehicle I've owned).

I've noticed particular issues getting in to 2nd (whether downshifting, upshifting, slow/hard acceleration, etc... to the point where occasional it grinds because I wasn't able to get it in 2nd fully. I've asked a few people and they said this is somewhat normal, and 2nd is one of the hardest gears to get in to... Occasionally I have this issue with 5th as well.

Also, here's something else I've noticed, I'm just wondering if this is normal... Let's say I'm on the highway doing 100km/h and want to pass someone. I'd want to skip a gear and downshift directly to 3rd...

Now let's say I try going directly to 3rd (with rev matching EXACTLY), I go to put in in 3rd, but it won't let me for ~1 second. It actually stops me for around a second until the shifter finally lets it go in to 3rd (doesn't matter how hard I push). I asked a few car buddies, they told me this was the synchros speeding something up probably, but other car buddies says this isn't normal, unless my car has some weird feature or something that isn't normal. I find it annoying, because I have to hold the accelerator and keep the rpms matched until it finally lets it slip in to 3rd then I can actually apply more acceleration to speed up/pass, etc...

Now if I do the exact same 6th to 3rd, but double clutch it slips right in beautifully with absolutely no force, etc... no issues!


Above behavior has been like this since the vehicle was brand new off the lot... I'm just wondering if this is normal, or if I may have something faulty with the shifter, clutch, transmission, etc... Appreciate all the help everyone has provided me on the forums with these issues and others!

Cheers!

JFJr
09-09-12, 04:30 PM
You talked several times of using force to get in gear. The TR 6060 likes a light touch. You might be using too much force. Relax a little, lighten your effort and learn the right hand position for each shift. Also, you don't have to double clutch.

Jud

Zhariak
09-09-12, 04:51 PM
You talked several times of using force to get in gear. The TR 6060 likes a light touch. You might be using too much force. Relax a little, lighten your effort and learn the right hand position for each shift. Also, you don't have to double clutch.

Jud

When I first purchased this vehicle, I lightly shifted like how I would shift in friends vehicles... Only difference was when lightly shifting in the V with light force, it grinded the gears like there was no tomorrow because it wouldn't fully go in... I've learned proper position, if I didn't it would result in it not fully going in to gear.

As for your comment about not having to double clutch, are you saying that the ~1 second delay of it not allowing me to go in to 3rd from 6th is NOT normal?

garfin
09-09-12, 04:52 PM
Since I got my new V-Coupe 6MT, I've had a few issues, most taken care of. Wondering if this is also one... (This is the first standard vehicle I've owned).

I've noticed particular issues getting in to 2nd (whether downshifting, upshifting, slow/hard acceleration, etc... to the point where occasional it grinds because I wasn't able to get it in 2nd fully. I've asked a few people and they said this is somewhat normal, and 2nd is one of the hardest gears to get in to... Occasionally I have this issue with 5th as well.

Also, here's something else I've noticed, I'm just wondering if this is normal... Let's say I'm on the highway doing 100km/h and want to pass someone. I'd want to skip a gear and downshift directly to 3rd...

Now let's say I try going directly to 3rd (with rev matching EXACTLY), I go to put in in 3rd, but it won't let me for ~1 second. It actually stops me for around a second until the shifter finally lets it go in to 3rd (doesn't matter how hard I push). I asked a few car buddies, they told me this was the synchros speeding something up probably, but other car buddies says this isn't normal, unless my car has some weird feature or something that isn't normal. I find it annoying, because I have to hold the accelerator and keep the rpms matched until it finally lets it slip in to 3rd then I can actually apply more acceleration to speed up/pass, etc...

Now if I do the exact same 6th to 3rd, but double clutch it slips right in beautifully with absolutely no force, etc... no issues!


Above behavior has been like this since the vehicle was brand new off the lot... I'm just wondering if this is normal, or if I may have something faulty with the shifter, clutch, transmission, etc... Appreciate all the help everyone has provided me on the forums with these issues and others!

Cheers!

Doesn't sound right to me. You should be able to upshift or downshift into second (or any gear) smoothly and without delay - unless you are managing to activate the CAGS (forced 1-4 upshift). Same with downshifting into 3rd from 5th. That should not cause a problem either. I frequently downshift from 5th to 3rd just before going into turn 9 at Mosport and I can tell you that doing so is smooth, with no trouble or delay. It sounds like a synchro issue (with the grinding), unless you are inadvertently failing to push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor at times. I find that in a manual car, it helps to move my seat a bit closer to the dash in order to get proper leverage on the clutch pedal to ensure that it gets depressed all the way. As JFJr suggests, you should be able to make these shifts smoothly without double clutching.
The only other thing that comes to mind is a possible issue with the clutch hydraulics (clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder).

Since the car is obviously under warranty, hopefully you can duplicate these symptoms for your service department.

Just read your last post and the 1 second delay is not normal. Neither is grinding with light pressure on the shifter.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Cheers,

Elie

Zhariak
09-09-12, 04:59 PM
Doesn't sound right to me. You should be able to upshift or downshift into second (or any gear) smoothly and without delay - unless you are managing to activate the CAGS (forced 1-4 upshift). Same with downshifting into 3rd from 5th. That should not cause a problem either. I frequently downshift from 5th to 3rd just before going into turn 9 at Mosport and I can tell you that doing so is smooth, with no trouble or delay. It sounds like a synchro issue (with the grinding), unless you are inadvertently failing to push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor at times. I find that in a manual car, it helps to move my seat a bit closer to the dash in order to get proper leverage on the clutch pedal to ensure that it gets depressed all the way. As JFJr suggests, you should be able to make these shifts smoothly without double clutching.
The only other thing that comes to mind is a possible issue with the clutch hydraulics (clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder).

Since the car is obviously under warranty, hopefully you can duplicate these symptoms for your service department.

Just read your last post and the 1 second delay is not normal. Neither is grinding with light pressure on the shifter.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Cheers,

Elie

Thanks Elie,

Your post exactly answers my question! I fully (and have verified I'm doing so) press the clutch when going from 6th, to 3rd... With double clutching it feels like a beautiful normal shift, whereas not double clutching it has that 1 second delay where I'll press (tried both hard or lightly) and won't go in to 3rd until that ~1 second is up...

This will be interesting... Ugh, more time in the shop...

Torxila
09-09-12, 06:38 PM
i had to have my 2nd gear set and syncros replaced under warranty at about 6k miles. It would constantly grind/chunk going into 2nd and was worse if the trans was cold. It got better as it warmed up, but still sh!tty.

Finally one day driving like a GRANNY, it wouldn't go into 2nd at all. Just massive grinding. There is lots of this complaint on the Camaro boards as well. The dealer put in new parts but didn't adjust the shifter properly so I had to take it back and they did better but not perfect.

When I had my engine mods done my builder had RPM transmissions in Indiana do LOTS to the tranny and the shifter is now adjusted correctly.

These twin disc clutches do like to be fully engaged (worse when cold) but YOU have syncro issues for sure. GET IT BACK TO THE DEALER.

Also get Royal Purple SYNCOMAX trans fluid after they fix it. Have some (or yourself) change the trans fluid.

Good Luck
George

larry arizona
09-09-12, 07:03 PM
Yup you got something wrong. I can go into any gear at any time and no rev matching needed at all. Very light touch and smooth. Only time I have ever had a grind is when I am lazy with the pedal shifting into 5th (maybe 2x ever). I agree it sounds like your clutch is out of adjust or you are not pushing it in all the way......

cdog533
09-10-12, 02:30 PM
It does sound like the clutch is not fully disengaging OR the shift linkage is misaligned.

Having driven cars during periods of clutch failure, it can be tough to force a car into gear without perfect rev matching when you aren't using the clutch. If you have to hold tension on it, and then it snicks into gear after a second of two, you are having a clutch or synchro issues.

Zhariak
09-10-12, 04:40 PM
It does sound like the clutch is not fully disengaging OR the shift linkage is misaligned.

Having driven cars during periods of clutch failure, it can be tough to force a car into gear without perfect rev matching when you aren't using the clutch. If you have to hold tension on it, and then it snicks into gear after a second of two, you are having a clutch or synchro issues.

I've never changed gears without the clutch, although I've heard this can be done, I wouldn't do this on a 84G car... I think you mis-read my post...

Hotrod-Realtor
09-10-12, 11:53 PM
Your double clutching may indicate a hydraulic problem. Push the clutch in one time and it won't shift properly. Push the clutch in two times and it works.

Zhariak
09-11-12, 09:18 AM
Your double clutching may indicate a hydraulic problem. Push the clutch in one time and it won't shift properly. Push the clutch in two times and it works.

Clutch feels great, stiff, new... To be honest I don't think this is an engage/disengage problem. Even though I'm a n00b when it comes to manual transmissions, from the research I've done, and from conversations I've had with people in the industry, it sounds like my synchro's may not be doing their job fully on changing the speeds of the shafts...


When I refer to double clutching, I'm referring to taking the stress off the synchro's by simply not using them (Clutch, nuetral, release clutch, rev match exactly, press clutch, push in to 3rd, release clutch). When I double clutch, no effort is needed to get in to 3rd from 6th at all. You could essentially tap super lightly and it would throw itself in to 3rd beautifully. Whereas if I don't double clutch and just skip gears downshifting normall (clutch, nuetral, rev match, push in to 3rd (this is where it stops me and a delay of 1 second occurs where no matter how lightly or hard I push it wont go in for a second), finally it goes in to 3rd, release clutch).


Keep in mind I've been driving this vehicle gently compared to how some of you drive... While I do occasionally give it some gas from stop lights, downshift through all but 1st when coming to a stop... I haven't done any track style racing, etc....

Yesterday I decided to take it out and just give the gearbox a bit of a go for it's money. I noticed that going from 5th to 3rd was easier, and I started messing around a bit (going from 4th to 2nd, 5th to 3rd, 5th to 2nd, etc... and keep in mind I'm EXACTLY rev matching)... I noticed that after doing this for a while, the shifter felt WAY better, and it actually started somewhat behaving like I would expect it to...

It's funny, some days the shifter doesn't want to play nice (especially cold starts where its super hard to get it in to gear sometimes), then other days the shifter acts like my friend and actually works with me. I'm wondering if maybe I need to start driving this vehicle harder...


Either way, I think I'm going to wait on getting them to touch anything. My seats are cracking/creaking/twisting and moving back over 6 inches when I accelerate now (causing issues with me having accurate pedal usage now since I move back when accelerating, or forward when braking), so when I get that looked at I'll ask them to put something on my file saying that I may be having shifter issues just for a later date

JFJr
09-11-12, 10:41 AM
Clutch feels great, stiff, new... To be honest I don't think this is an engage/disengage problem. Even though I'm a n00b when it comes to manual transmissions, from the research I've done, and from conversations I've had with people in the industry, it sounds like my synchro's may not be doing their job fully on changing the speeds of the shafts...

When I refer to double clutching, I'm referring to taking the stress off the synchro's by simply not using them (Clutch, nuetral, release clutch, rev match exactly, press clutch, push in to 3rd, release clutch). When I double clutch, no effort is needed to get in to 3rd from 6th at all. You could essentially tap super lightly and it would throw itself in to 3rd beautifully. Whereas if I don't double clutch and just skip gears downshifting normall (clutch, nuetral, rev match, push in to 3rd (this is where it stops me and a delay of 1 second occurs where no matter how lightly or hard I push it wont go in for a second), finally it goes in to 3rd, release clutch).

Keep in mind I've been driving this vehicle gently compared to how some of you drive... While I do occasionally give it some gas from stop lights, downshift through all but 1st when coming to a stop... I haven't done any track style racing, etc....

Yesterday I decided to take it out and just give the gearbox a bit of a go for it's money. I noticed that going from 5th to 3rd was easier, and I started messing around a bit (going from 4th to 2nd, 5th to 3rd, 5th to 2nd, etc... and keep in mind I'm EXACTLY rev matching)... I noticed that after doing this for a while, the shifter felt WAY better, and it actually started somewhat behaving like I would expect it to...

It's funny, some days the shifter doesn't want to play nice (especially cold starts where its super hard to get it in to gear sometimes), then other days the shifter acts like my friend and actually works with me. I'm wondering if maybe I need to start driving this vehicle harder...

Either way, I think I'm going to wait on getting them to touch anything. My seats are cracking/creaking/twisting and moving back over 6 inches when I accelerate now (causing issues with me having accurate pedal usage now since I move back when accelerating, or forward when braking), so when I get that looked at I'll ask them to put something on my file saying that I may be having shifter issues just for a later dateI downshift a lot from 6 to 4, just blipping the throttle before letting out the clutch; no double clutching and very smooth. I have a feeling you might be beating the synchros. Certainly, you may have a mechanical problem and you should get it on record, but it may be an issue of "bonding" with the transmission and the problem might go away. To me that's part of the fun with a manual transmission; the car can be an extension of your arms, legs, feet and brain.

BTW, on cold days it is normal for the transmission to feel a little rough going from 1 to 2, until it warms up.

Jud

larry arizona
09-11-12, 11:26 AM
yup cold shift are noticebly harder. I do recall my trans breaking in a bit and shift getting easier too by 7000 miles.