: Love Letter to John Heinricy



lawfive
08-31-12, 11:49 AM
Email addresses left intact in case anyone else wants to share some love with John.

Jerry

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----- Forwarded Message ----
From: John Heinricy <heinrocket@gmail.com>
To: Jerry Anderson <lawfive@pacbell.net>
Sent: Fri, August 31, 2012 8:04:44 AM
Subject: RE: Thanks

Thanks Jerry. I appreciate the feedback and am particularly happy that you enjoy the cars so much.

Regards

John Heinricy
HEINROCKET™ INC.

Driving to success™



From: Jerry Anderson [mailto:lawfive@pacbell.net]
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 2:13 AM
To: John@Heinrocket.com
Subject: Thanks



John,

Ran across your name and then your website while researching high performance cars. Just wanted to say a heartfelt "Thanks!" for the 2005 CTS-V that I supercharged, put a Corsa exhaust and short-throw shifter on, Bluetooth and iPod integration and other mods too numerous to mention. It was the mid-life muscle car that made up for the ones I had when I was a kid and didn't have enough money to play with. I loved that car to death.

Thanks also for my more refined 2011 CTS-V that came bone-stock with all the good stuff I had added to the 2005, plus stuff I didn't do (bullet-proof differential) and other stuff I couldn't do (gorgeous interior; asymmetrical half-shafts to kill the wheel hop; magnetorheological shocks for God's sake!). My girlfriend calls my new V "The Beast." I was on a business trip and she let her son take it out on a straight, quiet road and he floored the accelerator pedal and she said he was shocked.

You've helped make the driving parts of the past eight years of my life classy, luxurious, and fun. Not to mention bloody quick and freaking fast. Go GM! Just sorry you're not leading GMPD any longer. Hope you left it in good, enduring hands.

Race on, dude.
Jerry

"We didn't underestimate them. They were just a lot better than we thought." - Bobby Robson

thebigjimsho
09-01-12, 07:43 PM
Sounds like the makings of a manstew...

jft69z
09-02-12, 10:04 AM
Sounds like the makings of a manstew...

Just found this on the Corvette forum, made me laugh...

96937

JFJr
09-02-12, 10:15 AM
Here's one I sent. Automatic guys, don't make me explain why he used that transmission in his run. Ha haa!
--------------------

John, my 2009 CTS-V is the best car that I have ever owned. Thanks for your part in its development!

Please go back to the 'Ring with the manual transmission version and silence the automatic transmission freaks. There has been a lot of discussion on the 2009+ "V" forum about this, and we manual transmission guys think that you could best your record time using the Tremec 6060. What else do you have to do in retirement? Ha ha!

Jud

Pphilthy
09-04-12, 07:15 PM
He uses the automatic because it's quicker - just look at the lap times that were had with a pro driver in the V wagon with a manual trans - I believe the mag was Road and Track and it was way slower...

larry arizona
09-04-12, 07:41 PM
He uses the automatic because it's quicker - just look at the lap times that were had with a pro driver in the V wagon with a manual trans - I believe the mag was Road and Track and it was way slower...

Track was wet and conditions were less than ideal for that Vagon run. I am pretty sure someone can beat John's time in a 6M or a 6A under the right conditions. Put the STIG in there and I am pretty sure it could happen........

Pphilthy
09-04-12, 07:59 PM
Did you watch the in car video for that lap? the racing line was dry... Regardless, the time difference wasn't even close... Lots of shifting on a 7 mile track and time is lost with each shift...

larry arizona
09-04-12, 09:04 PM
I did watch it, the groove may have been dry but it is still green ( I would back off a little if the track was damp outside the groove). Track conditions make a huge difference in lap times. Just saying that I am sure John didn't cut a 7:59 on his only run on that track. An 8:12 is not that far off and under better conditions and more track time I am sure a pro (I know John is a pro) can cut a sub 8 in a 6M. I also thin a better sub 8 can be done in a 6A. Road courses are different than a 1/4 mile dragstrip. Gear selection is made mostly off throttle or during braking so the 6A does not have an advantage like on the strip.

JFJr
09-04-12, 09:04 PM
Did you watch the in car video for that lap? the racing line was dry... Regardless, the time difference wasn't even close... Lots of shifting on a 7 mile track and time is lost with each shift...Here we go, do your homework, I won't do it for you, and then come back and talk to us, The answers are on this site, if you are interested.

Jud

thebigjimsho
09-05-12, 09:59 AM
Did you watch the in car video for that lap? the racing line was dry... Regardless, the time difference wasn't even close... Lots of shifting on a 7 mile track and time is lost with each shift...

Then you didn't read the article. The experts at the Ring said a track that was wet and appears dry still needs time to dry for optimal results. And it wasn't.

JimmyH
09-05-12, 03:04 PM
How does one call drivers from Road & Track "pro drivers?" I suppose they are technically, but common...

FLTRI
09-05-12, 03:16 PM
Can't we all just get along???

:hide:

Pphilthy
09-05-12, 07:11 PM
How does one call drivers from Road & Track "pro drivers?" I suppose they are technically, but common...

Ummmm... I have a bunch of smart ass responses but I'll be nice :). The PRO driver was Cadillac Racing driver Johnny O&rsquo;Connell, not some Road & Track driver lol

Pphilthy
09-05-12, 07:14 PM
Then you didn't read the article. The experts at the Ring said a track that was wet and appears dry still needs time to dry for optimal results. And it wasn't.

The racing line was dry - was it optimal...? Definitely not, but 13 seconds adrift from the A6 that John drove is WAY, WAY off the pace... It certainly wasn't the driver as Johnny is certainly faster than John... Not taking anything away from John either but lets be honest here...

Pphilthy
09-05-12, 07:17 PM
Here we go, do your homework, I won't do it for you, and then come back and talk to us, The answers are on this site, if you are interested.

Jud

Homework...? Let talk facts, the quickest and fastest 1/4 mile V's are A6. The fastest V time around the ring was an A6.

Seems you are either in denial or need to do some homework... A6 are just quicker... :)

JimmyH
09-05-12, 07:42 PM
Ummmm... I have a bunch of smart ass responses but I'll be nice :). The PRO driver was Cadillac Racing driver Johnny O’Connell, not some Road & Track driver lol

Ok, he is a pro.
Road & Track employees? Well, they are closely related to the guy who decided to roll a press ATS.

Pphilthy
09-05-12, 07:46 PM
Ok, he is a pro.
Road & Track employees? Well, they are closely related to the guy who decided to roll a press ATS.

No debate from me - just clarifying the lap from Road and Track was from Pro driver Johnny O'Connell - not some Road and Track employee :)

Pphilthy
09-05-12, 07:47 PM
http://wot.motortrend.com/mt-video-our-2011-cadillac-cts-v-wagon-rounds-the-ring-one-last-time-248691.html

JimmyH
09-05-12, 07:52 PM
as for manual vs automatic; it has been put forth quite a few times here, that the only reason heinricy set the record in an auto, is because that just happened to be the car he was driving that day. It could just as well have been a manual.

Pphilthy
09-05-12, 07:58 PM
as for manual vs automatic; it has been put forth quite a few times here, that the only reason heinricy set the record in an auto, is because that just happened to be the car he was driving that day. It could just as well have been a manual.

Keep telling yourself that - Cadillac made a huge investment in setting the fastest lap possible. If there was even a remote chance the manual could be faster, that's what John would have driven... The reality is simple, the automatic has proven over and over again to be the quicker of the two options... And this simple fact holds true with all platforms and why manuals are an endangered species...

Full disclaimer, I own three manual trans cars and hold no bias, so lets just be objective... And in order to be competitive with my manual trans race car, I had to rebuild it into a straight cut dog box...

JimmyH
09-05-12, 08:02 PM
I don't have to tell myself that. I don't care. I am just reiterating what has been posted here and on facebook. fwiw (and I am sure it is very, very little) I think 'Ring times are ridiculous. I really couldn't care less what my car does on some notorious track halfway around the world that I will never drive on.

JimmyH
09-05-12, 08:04 PM
And I have no illusions that manual trans cars are faster. It's quite obvious as to the hows and whys of automatic transmissions being faster. And I still don't want one.

Pphilthy
09-05-12, 08:25 PM
And I have no illusions that manual trans cars are faster. It's quite obvious as to the hows and whys of automatic transmissions being faster. And I still don't want one.

I can certainly understand not wanting an auto and it's definitely not as fun as a manual...

I spoke directly with John at a Cadillac event and he told me directly that there was no performance advantage to the manual and he was already driving and comfortable with the A6. He also stated that the A6 enabled him to focus more on driving and less on thinking about shifting - which at the ring is a big plus... So, I'm not sure how that's any evidence to support one is faster over the other using John's words. John also did state that he personally preferred the manual. But the reality is the fastest lap times and drag results are from A6's...

JimmyH
09-06-12, 11:58 AM
And that's the problem with today's automotive landscape. Everyone is looking at which car is technically fastest. They should be looking at which one is the most exhilarating. I just can't have fun with a car that handles the shifting. I look at a car like my sister's Golf TDI. It's painfully boring. But the fact that it has a manual makes it at least a slight bit engaging to drive.

Besides, it has everything to do with the driver. I bet Heinricy in a manual Camaro SS would blow me away in an automatic CTS-V. On any track.

Xaqtly
09-06-12, 12:19 PM
Keep telling yourself that - Cadillac made a huge investment in setting the fastest lap possible. If there was even a remote chance the manual could be faster, that's what John would have driven.

The problem is that's an assumption on your part. What John actually said was that he used the auto because that's the car they had been testing with that week and he didn't have enough time to learn the shift points in the manual, so he took the auto instead. He did not say he preferred the auto, and he did not say the auto is faster than the manual. Those are his words, go ahead and watch the interview with him.

It's not proof that the manual is faster either, it's simply proof that a guaranteed faster lap was not the reason they used the auto. And the simple fact is that the auto in this car is not a modern dual clutch semi automatic, and therefore the manual has the same advantages over it that it's always had. There is more power in manual Vs (less parasitic drivetrain losses), and there is no hunting around for a gear when you have a manual. Anybody who is a reasonably accomplished driver can heel and toe a manual to better results than an old school automatic.

You don't lose time downshifting in a manual if you're heel and toeing, hopefully you know why. The only conceivable time you would lose time shifting is while accelerating in a straight line, but the no lift shift system solves a lot of that. And that's why automatics are traditionally better than manuals for drag racing, but the nurburgring isn't a drag race. I would say that in the course of a turn, including braking, apexing and accelerating out, a manual is always going to be better than the auto in the V, because the auto will have to downshift while you're accelerating out of the turn while the manual car will already be in the right gear. Modern dual clutch paddle shifted gearboxes are the best of both worlds since you have lightning fast shifts and can hit the right gear while braking and before you exit the turn.

And this is the key: John wasn't using the steering wheel buttons to manually shift the transmission. So the transmission wasn't going into the correct gear until he gave it some throttle, then it downshifted. At that point he would have been accelerating out of the turn, so there was time lost as he did not have full power on initial throttle input because the transmission had to shift down one or two gears first. It's for this specific reason that I think John could have gotten a better time with the manual, assuming he had the time to learn the shift points to his satisfaction before making the official run.

We're obviously not going to know if a manual is actually faster around the ring until John takes one out there, but the point is simply that there are quite a few arguments to be made that it could be faster, and there are none supporting the theory that they used the automatic specifically because they knew it would be faster than the manual. According to John himself, the auto was a safety precaution, insuring that he wouldn't hit the wrong gear by accident. And that's a good enough reason on its own, but it's not the same thing as saying the auto is faster.

JimmyH
09-06-12, 12:28 PM
Good points. But NO ONE can shift a manual faster than today's planetary automatics.

Xaqtly
09-06-12, 01:14 PM
No doubt. And that's really what the V needs for the third generation. I still hope they offer a manual, but to get the most out of the car it's going to have to be a modern dual clutch paddle shifted manual/semi automatic like BMW's.

JimmyH
09-06-12, 03:51 PM
I wouldn't hold your breath on a direct-shift gearbox. Those transmissions are in their infancy, and still problematic. I will never buy one of those until they figure out how to make them work properly. Maybe not even then. Kudos to GM for sticking with tried-and-true technology.

OldRoadDawg
09-06-12, 04:07 PM
Kudos to GM for sticking with tried-and-true technology.

Mmm-mm.... me love Kudos, 'tried-and-true technology'

JimmyH
09-06-12, 05:00 PM
kudos bars are indeed very tasty

Pphilthy
09-06-12, 06:22 PM
The problem is that's an assumption on your part. What John actually said was that he used the auto because that's the car they had been testing with that week and he didn't have enough time to learn the shift points in the manual, so he took the auto instead. He did not say he preferred the auto, and he did not say the auto is faster than the manual. Those are his words, go ahead and watch the interview with him.

It's not proof that the manual is faster either, it's simply proof that a guaranteed faster lap was not the reason they used the auto. And the simple fact is that the auto in this car is not a modern dual clutch semi automatic, and therefore the manual has the same advantages over it that it's always had. There is more power in manual Vs (less parasitic drivetrain losses), and there is no hunting around for a gear when you have a manual. Anybody who is a reasonably accomplished driver can heel and toe a manual to better results than an old school automatic.

You don't lose time downshifting in a manual if you're heel and toeing, hopefully you know why. The only conceivable time you would lose time shifting is while accelerating in a straight line, but the no lift shift system solves a lot of that. And that's why automatics are traditionally better than manuals for drag racing, but the nurburgring isn't a drag race. I would say that in the course of a turn, including braking, apexing and accelerating out, a manual is always going to be better than the auto in the V, because the auto will have to downshift while you're accelerating out of the turn while the manual car will already be in the right gear. Modern dual clutch paddle shifted gearboxes are the best of both worlds since you have lightning fast shifts and can hit the right gear while braking and before you exit the turn.

And this is the key: John wasn't using the steering wheel buttons to manually shift the transmission. So the transmission wasn't going into the correct gear until he gave it some throttle, then it downshifted. At that point he would have been accelerating out of the turn, so there was time lost as he did not have full power on initial throttle input because the transmission had to shift down one or two gears first. It's for this specific reason that I think John could have gotten a better time with the manual, assuming he had the time to learn the shift points to his satisfaction before making the official run.

We're obviously not going to know if a manual is actually faster around the ring until John takes one out there, but the point is simply that there are quite a few arguments to be made that it could be faster, and there are none supporting the theory that they used the automatic specifically because they knew it would be faster than the manual. According to John himself, the auto was a safety precaution, insuring that he wouldn't hit the wrong gear by accident. And that's a good enough reason on its own, but it's not the same thing as saying the auto is faster.

Wow - your long winded post is mostly opinions and hypotheticals... The FACT is the auto is quicker, it's been proven over and over again... Real world my friend... Show me the manual V's in the 10's or 9's - show me a manual trans with the same or remotely close lap times to the A6... There are several magazine reviews and all post slower ET's with the manual and that's with better than average drivers behind the wheel - good luck to the other 99% of you...

I spoke to John directly and have summarized our conversation if you even bothered reading my posts...

Your summary of how the auto transmission in the V works is also not completely accurate, it holds gears, learns driving shift patterns and the 2012+ shift even faster - all in sport mode letting the computer shift which is the quickest option.

To the manual guys, stop talking and start posting real world results... :) The only thing the manual provides over the A6 is a more engaged driving experience - the trade offs are obvious though...

Xaqtly
09-06-12, 06:56 PM
Wow - your long winded post is mostly opinions and hypotheticals... The FACT is the auto is quicker

Around the Nurburgring? Please provide proof of that and I'll concede that to you.


it's been proven over and over again... Real world my friend... Show me the manual V's in the 10's or 9's - show me a manual trans with the same or remotely close lap times to the A6... There are several magazine reviews and all post slower ET's with the manual and that's with better than average drivers behind the wheel - good luck to the other 99% of you...

Was there something about "The Nurburgring is not a drag race" that you didn't understand? :D Come on, I even specifically said that autos are faster for drag racing. If you're going to respond to my posts at least read them first.


Your summary of how the auto transmission in the V works is also not completely accurate, it holds gears, learns driving shift patterns and the 2012+ shift even faster - all in sport mode letting the computer shift which is the quickest option.

The V that John drove around the ring was not a 2012, and holding a gear is not helpful when you need to downshift. Did you not read that part either? The part about the downshifting? The part where I said the downshifting was the SPECIFIC reason I thought the manual would be faster? I'm all for an intelligent discussion, but you're not holding up your end.


To the manual guys, stop talking and start posting real world results

Real world results? Since John Heinricy hasn't taken a manual V for an official lap on the ring, it's not really physically possible to provide a result so why are you asking for one? Furthermore, if you want to prove me wrong do it with things like facts. Actual facts, not things that you consider to be facts but are really just your opinion. And again, because you probably need to be told this twice, I agree about drag racing. Autos tend to be faster. That doesn't mean they're always faster, and it certainly doesn't mean they're faster on a road course.

For example, tell me how I'm wrong about being in the correct gear during the braking phase of a corner so that you are in the correct gear when you accelerate out of it. You should already understand that the automatic in auto mode does not downshift for you while you're braking. It downshifts after you get back on the gas which translates directly to time spent changing gears instead of accelerating.

Pphilthy
09-06-12, 07:31 PM
Lmao

Pphilthy
09-06-12, 07:47 PM
Listen, it's obvious you have little or NO experience with the A6 in the V - but just watching John's ring video would put your concerns aside - the gear selection is immediate, no time is lost... Now on the other hand, it's pretty common knowledge that the A6 shifts faster and there are WAY more up shifts which again provide the advantage to the A6... Plus you keep missing the obvious, focusing on driving and not on shifting is a HUGE advantage in itself...

JFJr
09-06-12, 08:08 PM
Listen, it's obvious you have little or NO experience with the A6 in the V - but just watching John's ring video would put your concerns aside - the gear selection is immediate, no time is lost and it selects the right gear the instant you roll back on the throttle... Now on the other hand, it's pretty common knowledge that the A6 shifts faster and there are WAY more up shifts which again provide the advantage to the A6... Plus you keep missing the obvious, focusing on driving and not on shifting is a HUGE advantage in itself...Do we have a troll here? Let's respond accordingly.

Jud

JimmyH
09-07-12, 03:03 PM
http://cooleywire.com/jimmyh/pics/ani/go.gif

Pphilthy
09-07-12, 08:01 PM
For example, tell me how I'm wrong about being in the correct gear during the braking phase of a corner so that you are in the correct gear when you accelerate out of it. You should already understand that the automatic in auto mode does not downshift for you while you're braking. It downshifts after you get back on the gas which translates directly to time spent changing gears instead of accelerating..

Not sure how I missed this, but again, you lack knowledge on how the V auto trans works while in sport mode, it DOES DOWNSHIFT while braking, only faster than whats possible with a manual... It actually also depending on how hard of a braking zone and what the yaw sensor is reporting will downshift two gears if need... Example, hard braking at the end of the straight at NJMP ThunderBolt it drops from 5th down to 3rd and than 2nd while trail braking to the apex of turn one... Most of the track is between 4th and 3rd, again downshifting under braking at just the right (IDEAL) shit points. It also drops from 4th to 2nd during the braking zone before turn 5.

You are talking to someone that KNOWS what he's talking about and is a RACER! No 'TROLL' here guys...

4DR_ZR1
09-07-12, 08:30 PM
Not sure how I missed this, but again, you lack knowledge on how the V auto trans works while in sport mode, it DOES DOWNSHIFT while braking, only faster than whats possible with a manual... It actually also depending on how hard of a braking zone and what the yaw sensor is reporting will downshift two gears if need...
Thanks for pointing that out. I was beginning to think I was imagining those downshifts while doing some sporty driving on a few twisty, mountainous back roads.

Pphilthy
09-07-12, 09:12 PM
Thanks for pointing that out. I was beginning to think I was imagining those downshifts while doing some sporty driving on a few twisty, mountainous back roads.

Yep, not your imagination, it's actually doing exactly that... I think I saw a video of John or another GM engineer explaining it - it certainly isn't your 'Dad's' old caddy trans ... lol

FLTRI
09-08-12, 02:26 PM
The thing I find amusing about these A6 vs. M6 heated discussions (besides the fact that this whole tread went completely off topic at about the 3rd post) is that there is likely no one on this board that has the skill set required drive a V to it's fullest potential. If there was, they would have John's job. Arguing about which transmission may or may not be a few tenths faster is kind of silly, as none of us are professional race car drivers, and I seriously doubt any of us could run a sub 8 minute lap at Nürburgring with either transmission.

Initially, I wanted the M6 in my Vagon when I went V shopping too. I "settled" on the A6 when I discovered that I was not going to pay a performance penalty with the A6, and I still have a Corvette with a manual if I feel the need to row my own gears. Also, the V is my daily driver. The Corvette was my DD before I bought the V, and while stick is fun to drive, it gets tiresome when you have to do it all day, every day.

Occasionally, I get stick-envy, and kind of wish I would have held out for one. Mostly because it makes the ridiculousness of owing a super car station wagon even more ridiculous. But, all I have to do is press firmly on the right pedal, and I find that the A6 works just fine for me...

JimmyH
09-08-12, 03:00 PM
Just do what I did. Buy a manual trans and avoid rush hour.

Pphilthy
09-08-12, 05:25 PM
The thing I find amusing about these A6 vs. M6 heated discussions (besides the fact that this whole tread went completely off topic at about the 3rd post) is that there is likely no one on this board that has the skill set required drive a V to it's fullest potential. If there was, they would have John's job. Arguing about which transmission may or may not be a few tenths faster is kind of silly, as none of us are professional race car drivers, and I seriously doubt any of us could run a sub 8 minute lap at Nürburgring with either transmission...

The V limits aren't that high, it's a fast sport luxury car, but lets be realistic, it's no super car... The debate exists because for some reason the manual guys believe their choice is superior and reality doesn't support their opinions as fact. The fastest drag and lap times have come from the A6 - thats a fact. Heck, most don't even have a clue on how the V A6 works to even have an intelligent discussion as I've exposed on this thread...

You are correct that a a large majority aren't pro drivers and that just widens the disparity between how quick the A6 is over the manual... It takes a pro driver to duplicate what any average joe can accomplish with the A6, again, not opinion, it's been proven over and over again...

JFJr
09-08-12, 05:54 PM
You are correct that a a large majority aren't pro drivers and that just widens the disparity between how quick the A6 is over the manual... It takes a pro driver to duplicate what any average joe can accomplish with the A6, again, not opinion, it's been proven over and over again...Yes, and I suspect you aren't a professional driver either. Regardless, it would be interesting to have the man who set the sedan record, try with the manual transmission, too, but only after he has learned the shift points for the turns. It's all relative and maybe not important, but without opinions and controversy, would this forum be particularly relevant?

Jud

JimmyH
09-08-12, 06:34 PM
Heinricy is way too smart to come on a forum like this.

Trapspeed
09-08-12, 08:20 PM
Heinricy is way too smart to come on a forum like this.

Or use his real name. ;)

JimmyH
09-08-12, 10:29 PM
good point :D

thebigjimsho
09-09-12, 08:20 PM
The V limits aren't that high, it's a fast sport luxury car, but lets be realistic, it's no super car... The debate exists because for some reason the manual guys believe their choice is superior and reality doesn't support their opinions as fact. The fastest drag and lap times have come from the A6 - thats a fact. Heck, most don't even have a clue on how the V A6 works to even have an intelligent discussion as I've exposed on this thread...

You are correct that a a large majority aren't pro drivers and that just widens the disparity between how quick the A6 is over the manual... It takes a pro driver to duplicate what any average joe can accomplish with the A6, again, not opinion, it's been proven over and over again...

What is a fact is that Heinrecy never drove an M6 V on the 'Ring.

SoCal_V
09-10-12, 01:42 AM
What is a fact is that Heinrecy never drove an M6 V on the 'Ring.

So far as anyone knows. Does anyone think the V team would travel all that distance to Germany with only an automatic car? Of course they ran a manual, and it didn't provide the same lap times. Why would they publicize that?

Actually, they did publicize it...they drove an automatic V around for the record setting lap.

If anyone actually believes that was a coincidence, with Heinrecy "never" driving a manual V to compare times, given all of the money spent to get the 'Ring time, transport vehicles, tape the runs.....well, that's denial. Why on Earth would Heinrecy have answered that question by saying "Yeah we did run the manual and it's slower..." Not gonna happen! They aren't going to rate one version of their car over the other...why do that? The excuse of "oh that's just the car I happened to be driving that run..." is just that, an excuse. A competitive pro like John H wouldn't drive anything except the car that would give him the best chance to set a record, nor would he throw the manual transmission car under the bus...

Coincidences don't happen with big companies like GM, pro's like John Heirecy or the V development team. They knew exactly which car was quicker....and the record run was with an automatic for a reason, not a coincidence.

Pphilthy
09-10-12, 09:46 AM
What is a fact is that Heinrecy never drove an M6 V on the 'Ring.

LOL - and you know that how...? You are just making crap up now... John has been to the Ring on THREE separate occasions and he has IN FACT driven the M6 at the Ring. What John said was the week that they were trying to set the record, he was driving the A6. He was VERY CONFIDENT in what the A6 was going to do (that's racer talk for it was faster), and he didn't want to be disadvantage by taking a different car with a different transmission - he knew exactly what the A6 did so he drove it. Aaron Link drove the manual and it was OFF THE PACE! And yes, Arron is a Pro and Nurburgring EXPERT and the guy that drove the ZL1 to a 7:41 lap...

Fact is GM had sent both the A6 and the M6 to the ring to try and break the record, the FACT was the M6 was off the pace and the RECORD was set with the A6 - and that's a FACT!

Go watch the video again of John talking about the record setting lap - he says over and over again how CONFIDENT he was in the A6 ability to hit the right shift points, DOWNSHIFT (for the clueless) and it was ALWAYS in the right gear. John's confidence was from the previous two test sessions at the ring.

http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/cts-v/2009/il-insider-details-on-the-cadillac-cts-vs-run-around-the-ring.html

"The manual isn't as fast — "The reason you see John wave at the beginning of the video," another anonymous source told us, "is because (ride and drive engineer) Aaron Link is right behind him in a manual-transmission CTS-V." Link, an excellent driver in his own right, simply couldn't keep up with Heinricy and throughout testing the automatic has proven to be the hot setup for this car. "There's video of Aaron's run, and he's incredibly busy" an insider told us. "Meanwhile, John barely moves."


So there's my PROOF - where's yours...? Crickets, I know...

j_king
09-10-12, 12:42 PM
Completely off the current topic that this thread has gone, but when I picked up my V a couple months back (used obviously) and popped the hood, I saw Mr. Heinricy's signature on the strut tower bar! They had put a thin block of clear plastic and molded it over it to keep the signature intact.

Kinda cool. I know, I know, "cool story bro", but I meant to post up some pics and this thread reminded me of it.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming of the A6 vs M6 debate...

JimmyH
09-10-12, 01:10 PM
:tsucks:

JimmyH
09-10-12, 01:10 PM
What also sucks is the fact that L5 just does drive-bys.

Xaqtly
09-10-12, 04:24 PM
The debate exists because for some reason the manual guys believe their choice is superior and reality doesn't support their opinions as fact.

Actually the only reason there is a debate is specifically because you are presenting your side as fact when it's not. I mean unless you have a really loose definition of the word "fact", it is absolutely not a "fact" that the auto is faster around the nurburgring. And that's why there is a debate, because you keep pushing it as a fact when it's not.

Just admit that you don't know if a manual is faster or not on the nurburgring and there will be no debate after that. I've already given you plenty of reasons to at least consider the possibility. More power to the ground, no time lost when downshifting, no hunting for gears, etc.

Pphilthy
09-10-12, 05:30 PM
Actually the only reason there is a debate is specifically because you are presenting your side as fact when it's not. I mean unless you have a really loose definition of the word "fact", it is absolutely not a "fact" that the auto is faster around the nurburgring. And that's why there is a debate, because you keep pushing it as a fact when it's not.

Just admit that you don't know if a manual is faster or not on the nurburgring and there will be no debate after that. I've already given you plenty of reasons to at least consider the possibility. More power to the ground, no time lost when downshifting, no hunting for gears, etc.

lol - again, time lost when downshifting...? hunting for gears...? How many times does it need to be explained how the A6 works...? I posted the data to support what I've posted, where's your data besides your lack of knowledge on how the A6 works...

Aaron Link PROVED that the M6 was slower than the A6 at the ring and it was reported - link provided with quotes... One other point, do you know which trans Cadillac selected for all of the CTS-V's running during the 'CTS-V Challenge' - yep, the A6... lol

Xaqtly
09-10-12, 06:07 PM
My data is that there is no official lap time done by John Heinricy in an M6 CTS-V on the Nurburgring. I thought I made that clear in my last post. Your assumption that the auto is faster is exactly that - an assumption. Your refusal to admit that it's an assumption has gone beyond reason now and into the realm of stupidity, and I'm just wondering where your mental block is regarding things that are facts vs things that are not facts.

Your "proof", as you call it, rests on the assumption that Link can drive exactly as well as Henricy can on the Nurburgring. You're substituting the difference in drivers with the difference in transmissions, and that's kind of stretch, to put it mildly. Therefore the only thing that actually proves is that Link in a manual is not as fast as Heinricy in the auto. Once again, that is not the same thing as the auto being faster. Why do I have to explain this to you? This is logic 101, and you're using the same kind of false equivalency they teach you not to use in grade school.

It's very simple: until Heinricy does an official timed lap on the nurburgring in an M6 CTS-V in the same conditions as the auto, you can't say that the auto is faster. That's all there is to it.

JimmyH
09-10-12, 06:13 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flammulina_velutipes_04.jpg/310px-Flammulina_velutipes_04.jpg

JFJr
09-10-12, 06:24 PM
My data is that there is no official lap time done by John Heinricy in an M6 CTS-V on the Nurburgring. I thought I made that clear in my last post. Your assumption that the auto is faster is exactly that - an assumption. Your refusal to admit that it's an assumption has gone beyond reason now and into the realm of stupidity, and I'm just wondering where your mental block is regarding things that are facts vs things that are not facts.

Your "proof", as you call it, rests on the assumption that Link can drive exactly as well as Henricy can on the Nurburgring. You're substituting the difference in drivers with the difference in transmissions, and that's kind of stretch, to put it mildly. Therefore the only thing that actually proves is that Link in a manual is not as fast as Heinricy in the auto. Once again, that is not the same thing as the auto being faster. Why do I have to explain this to you? This is logic 101, and you're using the same kind of false equivalency they teach you not to use in grade school.

It's very simple: until Heinricy does an official timed lap on the nurburgring in an M6 CTS-V in the same conditions as the auto, you can't say that the auto is faster. That's all there is to it.Amen brother, very well said. This other guy is dogmatic, emotional and defensive; that leads to controversy where it's unnecessary. You're absolutely right and there would be no argument if he wasn't so inclined. There are plenty of other automatic drivers that are more introspective. A lot of them are on this forum.

Jud

Pphilthy
09-11-12, 07:37 AM
My data is that there is no official lap time done by John Heinricy in an M6 CTS-V on the Nurburgring. I thought I made that clear in my last post. Your assumption that the auto is faster is exactly that - an assumption. Your refusal to admit that it's an assumption has gone beyond reason now and into the realm of stupidity, and I'm just wondering where your mental block is regarding things that are facts vs things that are not facts.

Your "proof", as you call it, rests on the assumption that Link can drive exactly as well as Henricy can on the Nurburgring. You're substituting the difference in drivers with the difference in transmissions, and that's kind of stretch, to put it mildly. Therefore the only thing that actually proves is that Link in a manual is not as fast as Heinricy in the auto. Once again, that is not the same thing as the auto being faster. Why do I have to explain this to you? This is logic 101, and you're using the same kind of false equivalency they teach you not to use in grade school.

It's very simple: until Heinricy does an official timed lap on the nurburgring in an M6 CTS-V in the same conditions as the auto, you can't say that the auto is faster. That's all there is to it.

Just read the quotes in the article I posted - the manual was slower... It has also been proven over and over again... Facts are the auto has PROVEN to be the quicker option...

I also love it how you keep avoiding all of the wrong statements you've made about how the A6 works - hahaha!

Show me just ONE track where the manual has run a faster or even same lap time as the A6. Monticello, Palm Beach, Auto Club, Laguna Seca and the Ring just off the top of me head - the A6 has the faster lap times... Not to mention every single 1/4 mile track... :)

JFJr
09-11-12, 10:25 AM
It's impossible to argue with someone that thinks he knows everything and wants everyone to know it.

Jud

Pphilthy
09-11-12, 10:39 AM
It's impossible to argue with someone that thinks he knows everything and wants everyone to know it.

Jud

LOL - too funny... It's impossible to argue with someone that provides proof, and you have no proof to support your argument... Lap times from multiple tracks, direct quotes that were published that stated the manual was slower, the recent Johnny O'Connel lap with the M6 around the ring which was 13 SECONDS off the pace of the A6, and the real world results by V owners that show consistently that the A6 is quicker, etc...

It is also apparent that the understanding from some forums members on how the A6 works is wrong... Not downshifting on braking, hunting for gears, etc - all wrong.

Xaqtly
09-11-12, 01:19 PM
Just read the quotes in the article I posted - the manual was slower...

With a different driver. What are you not getting about that?


It has also been proven over and over again... Facts are the auto has PROVEN to be the quicker option...

On the Nurburgring? Where? By who? When did John Heinricy drive an M6 CTS-V on the 'ring as an official timed lap? All I can conclude at this point is that you don't actually understand what the words "fact" and "proof" mean. Maybe you should look them up and try again.

Oh and here's a good example of you not understanding how false equivalency works - you mentioned Johnny O'Connell's lap on the 'ring. You're using that to try to prove that manual Vs are slower around the 'ring than autos, and using Heinricy's official time to compare it to. Right? Here's the problem with that.

The Johnny O'Connell lap:

- was on a different day
- in different conditions (damp track)
- in a different car (the wagon is heavier)
- with a different driver
- apparently with a wheel out of round (see video)

And you're trying to compare the time O'Connell got to Heinricy's time, which was achieved in not only a different car entirely but with a different driver in different conditions?

Really?

Pphilthy
09-11-12, 07:31 PM
This is too funny - dispute these two facts:

- the fastest lap times recorded have come from the A6 ( Nurburgring, Monticello, Palm Beach, Auto Club, Lugana Seca, NJMP)
- the fastest 1/4 mile times have come from the A6
- Cadillac selected the A6 to compete against the worlds best in the Cadillac Challenge - very telling again.

Your argument is that the M6 can match or beat the A6 times but attempts to duplicate A6 times have all been slower - so, until you can prove otherwise, the A6 has proven to be the faster option..,

Xaqtly
09-12-12, 12:38 PM
- the fastest lap times recorded have come from the A6 ( Nurburgring, Monticello, Palm Beach, Auto Club, Lugana Seca, NJMP)

Sure, if you're trying to say that the LACK of an official lap time in an M6 magically means that the A6 is faster. Do you seriously still not understand what false equivalency is and how you are using it?


- the fastest 1/4 mile times have come from the A6

This is just a case of you not being able to read again. I already said A6s are better for drag racing. In fact I think I've said it at least three times already. Is your ability to read the problem, or is it your short term memory?


Your argument is that the M6 can match or beat the A6 times but attempts to duplicate A6 times have all been slower - so, until you can prove otherwise, the A6 has proven to be the faster option..,

This is how I know you're not paying attention. That has never been my argument. My argument is that you cannot definitively say the A6 is faster around the nurburgring when there is no official M6 time to compare it to. Any argument you make that states the A6 is unequivocally faster is coming directly out of your ass without passing a logic check first. That's the problem.

JimmyH
09-12-12, 12:45 PM
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p161/charlieme5150/pingpong.gif

Trapspeed
09-12-12, 03:51 PM
Now, who is McEnroe?? :)

V Wagon
09-12-12, 05:11 PM
The video where GM took a manual and auto ZL1 to the drag strip at Milan had them within .1 second of each other. There's no reason a manual V won't run the times the autos do. There are just more than 5 times more automatic cars out there to post times. That's 5 times more likely to have someone that knows how to launch, 5 times more likely to find good track conditions, good density altitude, etc.

Pphilthy
09-12-12, 07:15 PM
Sure, if you're trying to say that the LACK of an official lap time in an M6 magically means that the A6 is faster. Do you seriously still not understand what false equivalency is and how you are using it?

This is just a case of you not being able to read again. I already said A6s are better for drag racing. In fact I think I've said it at least three times already. Is your ability to read the problem, or is it your short term memory?

This is how I know you're not paying attention. That has never been my argument. My argument is that you cannot definitively say the A6 is faster around the nurburgring when there is no official M6 time to compare it to. Any argument you make that states the A6 is unequivocally faster is coming directly out of your ass without passing a logic check first. That's the problem.


There are official lap times for the M6 around the ring and all of the other tracks I mentioned, all slower - but I'm sure you have plenty of excusing to justify your position...

If you want to get nasty and start with the insults I'll begin to respond accordingly... But I do like reading you admit the A6 is quicker in a straight line :).

The facts are the A6 has PROVEN to post the fastest lap times - until you or someone else PROVES otherwise, the A6 will remain the PROVEN faster option... lol

Pphilthy
09-12-12, 07:28 PM
The video where GM took a manual and auto ZL1 to the drag strip at Milan had them within .1 second of each other. There's no reason a manual V won't run the times the autos do. There are just more than 5 times more automatic cars out there to post times. That's 5 times more likely to have someone that knows how to launch, 5 times more likely to find good track conditions, good density altitude, etc.

Apples Oranges - the ZL1 has launch control and a number of other nannies that the CTS-V doesn't - hence why there is a larger gap between the A6 and M6 in relation to the CTS-V... Maybe the ZL1 upgrades will make it to the next Gen M6 CTS-V...

JFJr
09-12-12, 07:36 PM
Has anyone ever told you that all caps is SHOUTING. I thought that all you young guys knew that. Being loud and vociferous doesn't carry the day. Why not visit the BMW forum, there are plenty of defensive people there; you might enjoy it better?

Jud

Pphilthy
09-12-12, 07:50 PM
Has anyone ever told you that all caps is SHOUTING. I thought that all you young guys knew that. Being loud and vociferous doesn't carry the day. Why not visit the BMW forum, there are plenty of defensive people there; you might enjoy it better?

Jud

Wasn't aware that an AARP membership was required to be a member of this forum. No need to visit the BMW forum to discuss what proven means, they get it and there are plenty of defensive M6 guys here ;)

JFJr
09-12-12, 08:32 PM
Wasn't aware that an AARP membership was required to be a member of this forum. No need to visit the BMW forum to discuss what proven means, they get it and there are plenty of defensive M6 guys here ;)Hey, junior, if you're really, really lucky you'll live as long as me and witness the development of high performance cars.

Jud

Submariner409
09-13-12, 08:08 AM
After doing some checking of reported posts and complaints from "members" in this thread it appears that it is actually the Cadillac Forums version of Romper Room. Stop armchair racing, wash the cars, and chill out. Cars are cars, some cars do some things better than other cars and none of us is Mario Andretti or Stirling Moss, so get over it and discuss ways to make what you have better rather than test drive some Beemer in cyberspace.

When the "He said, she said" gets nasty, people disappear and threads get locked. Stop the:Poke: and :florian:, everyone :kiss: and get back to :cheers:

JimmyH
09-13-12, 12:38 PM
yeah, what he said.

and don't catch your penises in your zippers as you are putting them away

SoCal_V
09-13-12, 08:34 PM
Shouldn't we be picking fights with the M and AMG boys rather than with each other? Just sayin'... :hmm:

JimmyH
09-13-12, 08:56 PM
They don't have any transmissions worth arguing about.

qictrk
09-14-12, 01:15 AM
I finally looked at this thread and had to see what the reason was for 5 pages. Ok, carry on. Cecil...................:pop2:.