: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job



MRneatfreak-
08-18-12, 11:08 PM
My friend suprised me on Friday and gave me the keys to his automotive shop where I have the use of the lift all weekend. So I finally took the plunge today after living in denial for a year plus that it needed a HG job. I have the jig, studs, tap and drill and the upper half engine gaskets, but I never got around to ordering the FSM. Here's hoping everything goes smooth. I worked 8 hours straight today and got heat sickness, and a pounding headache. I have till Monday morning before I have to at least have the cradle back in so we can roll it off the lift. I got the harness all the way disconnected, as well as the a/c lines, removed the intake, water reservoir, water crossover, wheels, calipers, radiator, fans, disconnected the steering shaft, left valve cover, and water pump cam pulley, struts upper towers unhooked.

I finally gave up for the night, :yawn: I had removed the connection nuts at the converter, but couldn't get it to seperate and the cradle kept leaving the jack stands when I raised the body with the lift. So I guess I'll try tomorrow to remove the bolts at the collector on the manifold instead?

I also pulled too hard on the rubber hose to the upper line of the heater core and the metal nipple seperated for the core itself. :nono: Don't know if that can me soldered or brazed while still in the car??? Its pretty tight in that corner. :helpless:

Tomorrow is going to be the big push to get it all the way out, start and finish both head jobs, skipping the lower half reseal, fixing that heater core, and getting the cradle at least bolted onto the car. :bonkers:

MRneatfreak-
08-18-12, 11:32 PM
BTW, I'm not worried about setting timing, the only thing I am unsure of at this point is the sequence and 1st, 2nd and third passes on the head studs/nuts. Can someone give me a link to that information. There is a computer at the shop, but not sure if he will let me back there to use alldatadiy. Thanks

vincentm
08-18-12, 11:48 PM
http://northstarperformance.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5&sid=fde7348f8a57b0a8d5b941befe1f83ec

MRneatfreak-
08-19-12, 08:20 AM
Is this the correct sequence?

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1033&bih=708&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsfd&tbnid=5aWux5cIApff_M:&imgrefurl=http://www.justanswer.com/cadillac/3yvoi-head-bolt-sequence-2000-deville.html&docid=r7FwSezWJjgUFM&imgurl=http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/drivefast1971/2010-09-07_204114_2.gif&w=480&h=401&ei=LsswUOOWBuiEygHf-YGYDA&zoom=1

MRneatfreak-
08-19-12, 03:56 PM
Well so much for quick, but definitely dirty.

Cradle is out finally. Forgot to turn the crank pulley to line up the timing marks before removing the crank pulley/harmonic balancer. But I haven't messed with the timing comonents yet, wanted to get em at TDC and mark the chains and sprockets. When I went to reinstall the crank pulley I noticed I couldn't find a keyway key, but there is definitely a triangle piece for one on the crank? Also there isn't a groove in the pulley itself? Does it just bolt on with no reference of which way is up? Alldata doesn't seem to mention any thing about the key on the pulley itself, but it does mention one for the sproket on the crank?

Submariner409
08-19-12, 04:07 PM
The harmonic balancer does not have a keyway. The crank chain sprocket has an alignment pin.

I hope you don't rush this job........... too many pitfalls.

MRneatfreak-
08-19-12, 09:22 PM
Finally got the heads off :bouncy:. #1 and #3 definitely trouble makers, #3 had about a 1/4 cup of fluid sitting in the chamber, and #2 had gunk built up around the water jacket under the head gasket. Will post pics tomorrow.

What's the best media to use to clean the heads with? Obviously don't want to be too agressive. I used a razor blade but not good enough.

I seemed to have misplaced the directions for the procedure of drilling and tapping:nono:. Other than to get it in straight from the get go, and go till the drill bit bottoms out at the keeper ring on the bit.

Hopefully I can get em all drilled, tapped and studded in 9 hours? :histeric:

What could I use as a cutting fluid substitute? Got about every lubricant under the moon except that.

Ranger
08-19-12, 10:30 PM
WD40 is a good cutting and tapping lube for aluminum.


What's the best media to use to clean the heads with? Obviously don't want to be too agressive. I used a razor blade but not good enough.

Whatever you do, DO NOT use ScotchBrite or even get it near an open motor.

MRneatfreak-
08-19-12, 11:16 PM
Uh oh, refresh my memory is scotch brite the green pads you scour pans with in the Kitchen?

I found some synthetic red pads on a disc, didn't feel to abrasive on the hand, that seemed to do pretty well with the air gun. Hope I didn't spread abrasive crap in the chambers. I blew it all out after I was done, and wiped the chambers down with wd-40 soaked on a rag...

I can turn the dowel in the head with a bolt in the middle using a pipe wrench but can't pull out?Couldn't find a 1/4" pipe plug right now.

Found this from Mr. Buttermore's post:

"Removed the dowels by tapping them (thanks, eyewonder, for this idea) with a 1/4-inch pipe tap, then threading in a big 14mm fine thread bolt. Slipped my tie rod pickle fork around that and whacked the bolt head repeatedly. They did not come out easily. Cleaned the deck and the piston tops very carefully and slowly with my carbide edge super scraper - did the valve indents with an old fid on a penknife, and a really fine wire brush. "

Gonna try this.

Man this is taking forever

Ranger
08-19-12, 11:37 PM
Yeah, that's them. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/27507-scotchbrite-never.html

Here's another dowel removal method.

Put a short length of threaded rod into the dowel and tack weld it in place. Now put a shorter piece of pipe over it so the threaded rod sticks out of the top of the pipe. Place a washer over the rod so it rests on the end of the pipe and then thread a nut onto the rod. As you tighten the nut, it will pull the dowel pin.

MRneatfreak-
08-19-12, 11:52 PM
Here's another dowel removal method.

Put a short length of threaded rod into the dowel and tack weld it in place. Now put a shorter piece of pipe over it so the threaded rod sticks out of the top of the pipe. Place a washer over the rod so it rests on the end of the pipe and then thread a nut onto the rod. As you tighten the nut, it will pull the dowel pin.

How do you keep from scoring the head with the short piece of pipe? Or not to worry about it?

I just realized we don't have a drill big enough either electric or pneumatic to handle the 17/32" drill bit :thepan: So much for an all night'er.

MRneatfreak-
08-20-12, 02:05 AM
Is ten hours too long to drop my first cradle?
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/Yeafinallyout.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8278.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8280.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8285.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/13undergasket.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/13undergasket.jpg

MRneatfreak-
08-20-12, 02:21 AM
I assume this gunk under the gasket is where it was leaking into the cylinder on #2?
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/2undergasket.png

maeng9981
08-20-12, 05:27 AM
Those are gasket particles, which came from a deteriorated gasket. Mine had that "gunk" almost everywhere around the water jacket. I carefully removed those using vacuum cleaner & craft sticks.

http://i.imgur.com/F7wjm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pH9qi.jpg

Ranger
08-20-12, 12:21 PM
How do you keep from scoring the head with the short piece of pipe? Or not to worry about it?

The pipe should not score the head. It just sits there. You could put a larger washer under it if you are worried about it. Even a piece of cardboard would do.


That "gunk" is sealant tab residue.

The more pictures I see, the more I am becoming convinced that the gaskets go first in the chicken or egg theory. Then the question becomes is it an inferior gasket, coolant, coolant change interval or open deck design? Personally, I do not like that open deck.

drewsdeville
08-20-12, 09:18 PM
I agree. I the threads are definitely a problem when the bolts are removed, but the pictures always show a deteriorated gasket, never one in decent shape - even in well maintained cars. Mighty coincidental. It seems everyone overlooks the condition of the gaskets because they've conditioned themselves to ignore everything but the block threads.

Anyone have a link to a thread where pictures were shown with coolant leaking by a healthy gasket, indicating a ONLY a clamping problem?

Inferior gaskets would also explain why bolt length and thread pitch changes never really solved the problem. 2000+ cases sure seem to be gaining a lot of ground as they enter the "sweet spot" age.

MRneatfreak-
08-20-12, 10:59 PM
I'm still drilling and tapping 2 down 18 to go. And had fun removing the alignment pins with my friend.

I thought I read somewhere about going 60 degrees farther as indicated on the special torque gauge when torqueing the nuts on the studs? Not just the three passes? Maybe that was for someother part of then engine?

I see Jake put up a new video on his original website detailing the proper use of the jig.

I had two bolts on the top row that definitely failed for Cyl's #1 and #3. The others seemed gut and tight. So like you guys were saying maybe it is a gasket problem if the bolts hadn't failed.

Ranger
08-20-12, 11:17 PM
No, I'm saying the gasket failed first, leaking coolant into the bolt threads, causing electrolysis, thus corroding the threads until they eventually fail.

MRneatfreak-
08-20-12, 11:27 PM
Yeah that's what I meant to say. Can't think right after working all day at day job :yawn:.

My shouldered jig alignment bolts are warped, so when I am tightening them in I see the jig shifting up and down, adds another 3 steps to make sure the jig is straight with the cutting and drilling holes. What a PIA. Now I feel the pain Mr. Buttermore had when I rented him the jig.:rolleyes:

drewsdeville
08-20-12, 11:34 PM
No, I'm saying the gasket failed first, leaking coolant into the bolt threads, causing electrolysis, thus corroding the threads until they eventually fail.

Electrolysis, huh? Are all of these head gaskets rotted because the gasket is acting as an anode? I've never seen so many engines of one type opened up to see identical looking nasty head gaskets = and many members here seem to be good about fluid intervals.

MRneatfreak-
08-21-12, 12:00 AM
Well something is definitely astray with the jig alignment bolts, its to the point where I can't get the hole on the deck to line up with the jig when i tighten the two alignmetn bots down. What a mess. We tapped two of the deck holes free hand earlier using the old head bolts with them installed as a reference. But that is so easy to fall into the pit with that method.

Thats what I get for buying a used jig kit. :nono:

U suppose a machine shop would have these shouldered jig bolts? Or could make them within a day?

Ranger
08-21-12, 12:24 PM
Electrolysis, huh? Are all of these head gaskets rotted because the gasket is acting as an anode? I've never seen so many engines of one type opened up to see identical looking nasty head gaskets = and many members here seem to be good about fluid intervals.
No, the gaskets fail, allowing coolant to seep into the head bolt threads and the head bolt becomes the anode. The electrolysis is taking place between the bolt and the block (in the threads).

Submariner409
08-21-12, 01:53 PM
No, the gaskets fail, allowing coolant to seep into the head bolt threads and the head bolt becomes the anode. The electrolysis is taking place between the bolt and the block (in the threads).

That sequence ^^^ would indicate that the stainless steel fire ring (the torque-to-crush seal ring part of the head gasket above the cylinder liner) is the last to "blow", thus allowing gas from/coolant to a cylinder after the eroding head bolt threads begin to fail. Is this a problem with coolant "wicking" through the composite head gasket felt/graphite/mesh material ? By design, those coolant passages - and the raw gasket edges - are subject to a constant 16 or 18 psi (depending on year) any time the engine is operating...........

but ........ I have built quite a few (iron block) Olds 455's and GM 454's using 18 psi reservoir caps and I don't ever remember finding coolant in the head bolt holes in the block(s).

Ranger
08-21-12, 04:47 PM
Is this a problem with coolant "wicking" through the composite head gasket felt/graphite/mesh material ?
:noidea: That was kind of what I thought when looking at pictures of what is left of them. Hard to say for sure, but looking at the pictures in post #12 & 13 I think it is apparent that the gasket failed before the threads. Those gaskets are deteriorated and rusted through. Hard to imagine that happened because of the head bolts loosing clamping pressure. Cooling system neglect I could understand. Coolant doesn't get changed, anti-corrosion additives wear out and the rust starts. Those pics are a very good argument for 2 year coolant change intervals vs the 5 yr "recommended". GM would have been better off putting a 2 year coolant reminder in the PCM than the OLM. No one forgets to change oil.

vincentm
08-21-12, 05:39 PM
No one forgets to change oil.


Female drivers

yes, i went there..

drewsdeville
08-21-12, 06:09 PM
No, the gaskets fail, allowing coolant to seep into the head bolt threads and the head bolt becomes the anode. The electrolysis is taking place between the bolt and the block (in the threads).

Yes, I understand that electrolysis is responsible for the thread failure, but the condition of these gaskets makes me wonder if at some point in the process the gasket acts as an anode. Look at those pictures - that's A LOT of corrosion, even for an engine with neglected coolant.

Ranger
08-21-12, 09:55 PM
:noidea: It's all debatable. All I am saying is that in the chicken and the egg theory (which has been debated forever), I think the gaskets go first. Why they go, is a whole new debate.

MRneatfreak-
08-22-12, 03:03 AM
Had my friend also known as the Master Mechanic, drill and tap the holes for me, while I held the flashlight :thumbsup:. Got too much riding on this repair to screw it up myself, like I almost did on the first hole, but we won't discuss that.

Got the left bank head back on, just have to torque it down, that was fun getting all 10 studs to go in the same direction :bighead:, taking on and off again several times because I kept getting oil on the sealing surface of the head with my greasy fingers from the timing chain closet. Got all the bolts installed. Maybe by up in the morning with the blood shot eye I'll have both heads on and snugged down, before the sun rises? Will post some pics tomorrow night.

Oh and the threadlocker that oozed out of the holes reacted with the glue on the blue painters tape which turned into an sticky residue. Had to re-clean the engine deck again, that stuff did not want to come off.

MRneatfreak-
08-22-12, 12:03 PM
I also pulled too hard on the rubber hose to the upper line of the heater core and the metal nipple seperated for the core itself. :nono: Don't know if that can me soldered or brazed while still in the car??? Its pretty tight in that corner. :helpless:

Any ideas on what I could do besides R&R the heater core? Now is the time to try while the cradle is out.

Submariner409
08-22-12, 12:51 PM
Replace the heater core.

MRneatfreak-
08-22-12, 02:56 PM
All shined up
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8311.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8293.jpg

Felpro
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8312.jpg

Wiggle and Rubber Mallet Massage
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8313.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8317.jpg

Old Head Bolts
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8319.jpg

Ranger
08-22-12, 10:04 PM
That's purdy!

CadillacLuke24
08-23-12, 01:12 AM
:thumbsup: Gonna have another Northstar back at 'em and better than ever! GOOD ON YA! :D

MRneatfreak-
08-23-12, 11:37 PM
I forgot how much fun playing musical bolts and brackets can be :rolleyes:. You would think you would remember how it all goes back together.:hmm:

Cradle is ready to go in the car. I replaced the motor/transmission mounts. The lower front one by the radiator was about one 2 inches from being completely severed. Rear lower by the passengers tire had some life in it, but it was only $26 so did it too. The small one by the drivers tire looks ok. Ended up also replacing the starter cable, on the battery side someone used those universal type clamps and everything was corroded with green gunk. Next chance to work on it isn't for another couple days. Maybe by Sunday it'll be time to start her up.

stoveguyy
08-25-12, 03:47 PM
dayum. you want the gasket mating surfaces to be flat, not swoped and scalloped from going nuts with a disc grinder. i used some spray on gasket remover. cleaned the head surface up pretty nice. the surfaces are machined with a certain rms from the factory. you can go nuts a bit on an iron head/block but aluminum is soft. i hope you don't have any issues with sealing.

MRneatfreak-
08-25-12, 08:58 PM
Not too worried about the sealing surfaces its not like I used a wire wheel or scotchbrite :hide:.

I did however have a few screw ups today. The CV axles over extended and the struts bowed. Was able to rectify the one axle but upon taking the boot off the other we found the bearing were all discombobulated so had to replace that one.

Then I made the mistake of turning the steering wheel before reconnecting the rack and pinion and I think I broke the clock spring inside under the air bag. How do I disconnect/disable the airbags before turning power back on? Anything else that needs to be unhooked due to this problem.

Ranger
08-25-12, 10:17 PM
Just pull the air bag fuse.

MRneatfreak-
08-26-12, 10:20 AM
ok pulled the sir fuse in the truck, disaster averted.

Started the engine heard some rumbling thought it was the exhaust leak, cause I could only get 3 of 4 bolts in the collectors. Turns out the lifters were clapping, and the Dic said low oil pressure. This was maybe 5-10 secs tops. Shut it down, removed the harmonic balancer again and retorqued to 37ft lbs and 120 degrees with the bolt lubed in engine oil, still says low oil pressure I can hear the lifters screaming. Was i supposed to prime the oil pump before I intstalled it? I just removed it, to get the timing set right. I didn't take the pump apart.

Submariner409
08-26-12, 10:50 AM
The GM service manual, under engine overhaul procedure: Oil pump assembly - "Pack the pump housing with white petroleum jelly to insure pump priming".

You MAY get away with grossly overfilling the oil pan - pour in another 7 quarts of oil in order to bring the level up to the crankshaft-oil pump height. Start the engine at idle only and pray that it primes. IF it does, idle it for a minute, then shut down and drain down the oil to proper level.

If you heard gross lifter clatter, that's not good, particularly in a flat tappet cam follower engine.

Ranger
08-26-12, 11:46 AM
:yeah:

The overfill procedure should prime the pump for you. I remember our old Guru saying overfill by 8 qts (total of 16), but I don't know how critical that number is.

MRneatfreak-
08-26-12, 12:42 PM
The GM service manual, under engine overhaul procedure: Oil pump assembly - "Pack the pump housing with white petroleum jelly to insure pump priming".

You MAY get away with grossly overfilling the oil pan - pour in another 7 quarts of oil in order to bring the level up to the crankshaft-oil pump height. Start the engine at idle only and pray that it primes. IF it does, idle it for a minute, then shut down and drain down the oil to proper level.

If you heard gross lifter clatter, that's not good, particularly in a flat tappet cam follower engine.

Yeah I read that on alldata but it was also talking about disassembling the oil pump and that you should prime the pump with grease after that. I didn't dissassemble the pump, just removed and set aside...:hmm:

At any rate I like the overfill idea seems like less work.

Submariner409
08-26-12, 01:16 PM
You open the oil pump and engine passages and oil drains down/back/out. The oil pump is a gerotor design, not the meshed gear type, so it needs all the help it can get as far as priming goes. Cadillac has a special Northstar oil system priming rig for just this sort of event.

MRneatfreak-
08-26-12, 08:06 PM
You open the oil pump and engine passages and oil drains down/back/out. The oil pump is a gerotor design, not the meshed gear type, so it needs all the help it can get as far as priming goes. Cadillac has a special Northstar oil system priming rig for just this sort of event.

What a Pia, just when I thought the engine was finally in and ready to go this whole low oil pressure monster reared its ugly head.

I added an additional 8 qts of oil on top of what was already in the crankcase at the full mark. Started and shut it off a quick couple of times then let it run for a few more seconds the last time and the oil light never turned off and the Dic said shut down engine.

So I gave up for now. Got a Cat 2+ hurricane on its way.

Maybe my friend can remove the timing cover and prime the oil pump, later this week if the bldg isn't damaged.

Ranger
08-26-12, 10:12 PM
Started and shut it off a quick couple of times then let it run for a few more seconds
It might need to be run a little longer than that. I'm not really sure how long it takes.

Submariner409
08-27-12, 10:38 AM
Not to rub salt into an open wound, but this job turned out to be anything BUT "Quick" and it certainly is "Dirty".

When you get back into the front of the engine, make sure the oil pump drive sleeve is correctly installed and that the balancer bolt torque sequence is correct. Maybe you have time to find a real GM service manual ??? ........ or www.alldatadiy.com (http://www.alldatadiy.com)

vincentm
08-27-12, 11:50 AM
A 4-point lift can make the job a bit quicker though lol....a bit

trbolvr
08-27-12, 11:41 PM
This is how I primed my pump. The "Topsider" is made for marine applications but I've found it to be a great tool in the garage. It basically gives you a vacuum in the can when the handle is pumped. Also works great for cleaning out heater cores.

96659

maeng9981
08-28-12, 05:55 AM
I don't know if you'd like this procedure or not - but what I did when I was doing mine was that I pulled the fuse for fuel pump and then cranked the engine for 15 seconds, twice. After that, no complaints from the engine or the pressure sensor.

stoveguyy
08-28-12, 05:51 PM
Took several minutes of idling for my motor to quiet down. I have only done 1 head gasket job. You could ask someone who has done many jobs. Is it common to get lifter rattle when oil pump is not touched?

MRneatfreak-
08-31-12, 09:17 PM
Not to rub salt into an open wound, but this job turned out to be anything BUT "Quick" and it certainly is "Dirty".

When you get back into the front of the engine, make sure the oil pump drive sleeve is correctly installed and that the balancer bolt torque sequence is correct. Maybe you have time to find a real GM service manual ??? ........ or www.alldatadiy.com (http://www.alldatadiy.com)

If it hadn't been for the oil pump, it would have been quick (for me). Usually takes me a couple weeks to R&R engines let alone tear one apart and redo the head studs. Usually have too many hobbies to focus on one all the time. I don't have all the time, experience and money that you seem to have o'le timer. That's what this forum is for. Like I said in my other post I've used alldata along the way.

Well on top of the hurricane had a death in the family and made a 1200 mile one way drive, TWICE in 4 days with a family of 5. When I got back today my friend took a peek at the problem, and realized the spacer/ring/bushing that goes between the pump and the harmonic balancer is missing. So gonna pull the timing cover tomorrow, and see if I installed it between the pump and the engine itself. That would explain alot. If its missing completely then I'm making a trip to the junk yard to pull one. I swept the floor last week, so if its not installed chances are that it got swept up.

MRneatfreak-
08-31-12, 09:23 PM
This is how I primed my pump. The "Topsider" is made for marine applications but I've found it to be a great tool in the garage. It basically gives you a vacuum in the can when the handle is pumped. Also works great for cleaning out heater cores.

96659

Had no idea where to hook up to a suction port. Great idea, I don't have a Topsider, but I do have a rochester suction gun. Same principle, just on a smaller scale.

MRneatfreak-
08-31-12, 09:26 PM
A 4-point lift can make the job a bit quicker though lol....a bit

Yeah I personally wouldn't want to do one without a lift. I was blessed to have good neighbors this time.

I am 6 foot 8 inches tall and 300 pounds. I wouldn't do this job with the car on jack stands. Especially with my cracked driveway the way it is.

MRneatfreak-
08-31-12, 09:28 PM
Took several minutes of idling for my motor to quiet down. I have only done 1 head gasket job. You could ask someone who has done many jobs. Is it common to get lifter rattle when oil pump is not touched?

It may have taken you several minutes to quiet down the lifters but I bet you didn't have an oil pressure light on or a low oil pressure warning? Did you?

MRneatfreak-
08-31-12, 09:31 PM
I don't know if you'd like this procedure or not - but what I did when I was doing mine was that I pulled the fuse for fuel pump and then cranked the engine for 15 seconds, twice. After that, no complaints from the engine or the pressure sensor.

Yeah this seems like a good idea as well. Except I was trying to think of how to disable the spark and the only thing I was coming up with was to disconnect the 4 power connectors that go to the coil base plate. Aside from priming the system with a vacuum source.

CadillacLuke24
09-01-12, 04:35 PM
Yeah I personally wouldn't want to do one without a lift. I was blessed to have good neighbors this time.

I am 6 foot 8 inches tall and 300 pounds. I wouldn't do this job with the car on jack stands. Especially with my cracked driveway the way it is.

Holy crap you area big dude! Do you fit ok?

Good luck on gettin' her finnished up. Almost there!

MRneatfreak-
09-01-12, 06:28 PM
Holy crap you area big dude! Do you fit ok?

Good luck on gettin' her finnished up. Almost there!

Thats why I like these deville's plenty of room for my knees to stradle the wheel without hitting the console, bench seats, column shifter etc..

MRneatfreak-
09-01-12, 06:40 PM
Well I went to the bone yard and pulled the balancer off to see if I was missing any parts on my car, and I didn't see any difference to what is on my car. So that leads me to believe that everything is there that needs to be there, just have to figure out why its not getting any oil pressure?

Currently lettting the battery charge after I cranked for about 15 seconds with no fuel pump relay installed. Battery is getting old. Will have to address that soon if I ever get this oil problem resolved.
If after cranking another 15 seconds doesn't do the trick. Then I'm going to try removing the pump and packing with petroleum jelly. I was thinking of trying this other pump I pulled from the bone yard and packing it instead??

I want to try to prime the system with a suction gun but I don't think there is enough clearance to horse around much behind that front motor mount bracket.


*Edit* One more thought: if the oil pressure sensor was messed up or the connector wasn't fully seated what would be the symptom? Would the oil light always be on? I do remember having problems getting that connector on, but I think it was seated.

Submariner409
09-01-12, 06:58 PM
You should have essentially little or NO valve lifter or mechanical noise at startup after complete overhaul proper assembly. None. Your posted valve clatter and indications of low/no oil pressure says something is drastically wrong. Drastically. Oil pressure light be damned.

Every - and I mean every engine I build/rebuild gets dropped in, checked over, started, and as soon as ( ?? 3 seconds ??) oil pressure starts to climb the engine goes to 1,800 rpm for 15 minutes to begin the cam and ring break-in. If you trust your build instincts, all is well: The absolute worst thing you can do to a rebuilt or top overhauled engine is to idle it at initial start. BUT you have to guarantee that the engine will lubricate itself from the get-go.......... and that takes service manuals, experience, and gearhead instinct. (Yes, I have made a couple of very expensive mistakes due to being in a hurry.)

Tell me that you dribbled assembly lube all over all 32 cam lobes and lifters..............

MRneatfreak-
09-01-12, 07:27 PM
Yep drizzled oil on the lobes when we were rotating the crank by hand for about 15 minutes when we set the timing chains, just to make sure nothing was going to mash together.

After having removed the fuel pump relay and putting it back in, now I can't get it to start? It will turn over with the starter but will not take off on its own. Checked codes get a p0118 for the coolant ckt, irrelevant. But also get a p0322 which is:
- Ignition/Distributor engine speed sensor harness circuit is open or shorted
- Ignition/Distributor engine speed sensor poor electrical connection
- Faulty Ignition/Distributor engine speed sensor
- Faulty Crankshaft Position sensor
- Low battery charge
- Faulty Engine Control Module (ECM

May just be the battery will have to disconnect and erase the memory. Thats the only thing I can think. Cause it wanted to start before I removed the fuel pump relay but I wouldn't let it. And I'm gettting fuel at the rail when I push the schrader valve in. Yes I turned the key on and off several times to pressurize the system

MRneatfreak-
09-01-12, 08:23 PM
Well got it to finally fire on its own, had to use a porta power, starter was spinning fast but something about this battery that the car don't like. Still have the same noise and the oil light remains on. Tearing back into the timing cover and oil pump to see what I can see.

MRneatfreak-
09-01-12, 09:35 PM
Got the pump off dont see anything grossly wrong with it. One side was wet with oil and the other hole was dry. Now when it says to pack the housing with white petroleum jelly. It means seperate the two halves and pack it in and around the gears and the hollow passages?

Submariner409
09-01-12, 09:42 PM
Pack the gerotor and outlet passage. Squirt as much engine oil as you can into the supply - oil pan - passage. Double check that the pump oil bypass plunger and spring are intact and that the bypass plunger is free in its bore. (Post #45 diagram)

MRneatfreak-
09-01-12, 11:57 PM
Ok packed the heck out of the housing, reassembled, filled up the front cover prior to putting the timing cover on. Question now is should I overfill the crankcase prior to startup to aid in any low oil issue in the pump, or just fill up the crankcase as normal?

eyewonder
09-02-12, 12:20 AM
When I got back today my friend took a peek at the problem, and realized the spacer/ring/bushing that goes between the pump and the harmonic balancer is missing.

I might be reading too much into (or not understanding) your description/part name, but there is NOT anything between the oil pump & the harmonic balancer. Looking back at the illustration in post #45, item #11 is the drive sleeve for the oil pump. The crankshaft would be to the left of the drawing, with the nose of the crank going through the drive sleeve, then the oil pump sliding over the drive sleeve with the two flats machined onto the drive sleeve mating up with the corresponding flats on the pump gear, and eventually outside the timing cover.

The below photo shows my 2000 N* pump installed, just after removing the timing cover. No spacers on the crank.

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r582/eyewonder300/Oil%20Pump/OilPumpCloseUp.jpg

Cheers,
Steve

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 01:12 AM
I might be reading too much into (or not understanding) your description/part name, but there is NOT anything between the oil pump & the harmonic balancer. Looking back at the illustration in post #45, item #11 is the drive sleeve for the oil pump. The crankshaft would be to the left of the drawing, with the nose of the crank going through the drive sleeve, then the oil pump sliding over the drive sleeve with the two flats machined onto the drive sleeve mating up with the corresponding flats on the pump gear, and eventually outside the timing cover.
The below photo shows my 2000 N* pump installed, just after removing the timing cover. No spacers on the crank.

Hi Steve, Yeah I'm past that part now. My friend showed me a diagram that seemed to show a spacer in front of the oil pump on the crankshaft when actually it was the drive gear that actually spins the gerotor.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 01:46 AM
Well after packing the oil pump with petroleum jelly and overfilling the crankcase, I still get a low oil warning message, and the oil light never extinguishes... :crybaby:

Would like to verify oil pressure with a mechanical gauge but don't know what port to test? Would it actually be the same one that is used by the oil pressure switch on the oil filter adapter?

CadillacLuke24
09-02-12, 01:54 AM
I believe so. I'm not entirely sure though, so I'll let the guys with experience chime in. Have to say though, either wiring isn't properly connectd or the switch is toast.

eyewonder
09-02-12, 02:09 AM
Glad to hear that the pump was all together, as it should be.

I also am looking into a 'Low Oil Pressure - Turn Engine Off' message. After a 200 mile road trip it did not show the message again, and no unusual engine noises.

I have a new oil pressure sensor that I will be installing this weekend, and also got a $35 Transmission pressure/engine oil pressure gauge test set that I will be using to get an actual PSI reading with the engine running. It will hookup to the same port on the filter adapter that the sensor normally screws into. The main part of the kit that caused me to buy it was the collection for various thread size adapters that came with it.

Cheers,
Steve

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 02:21 AM
I wonder if anyone has ever posted a video of them purposely lighting their Deville on fire? That's about where I am at with this project. It would probably give alot of us some much needed release to watch the video. Kind of like that scene from the movie Office Space where they take the printer to the field and go gangster on it. I've got about $800 in parts total, and I got the car for $800. So not too much of a loss. Got a few more ideas to try but then...

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 03:08 AM
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8378.jpg

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8376.jpg


After I took that pic I stuffed the right side hole with more grease and filled with oil
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q633/MRneatfreak/101_8377.jpg

What are the odds that its just a oil pressure sender?

I need to jump out the connector too to see if the light goes out.

Submariner409
09-02-12, 11:43 AM
Your post that said something about a rumble and then another that went "I could hear the lifters screaming............." is what pointed toward a faulty or no-prime oil pump. If the engine is now mechanically quiet at idle I'd find/rent an oil pressure test gauge - it goes into the oil pressure sending switch hole on the oil filter adapter.

Cold, you should have at least 20 - 25 psi at a 650 idle.

From your picture it looks like an awful lot of oil has been flying around in that timing chain area for there to be no oil flow..............

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 11:49 AM
Your post that said something about a rumble and then another that went "I could hear the lifters screaming............." is what pointed toward a faulty or no-prime oil pump. If the engine is now mechanically quiet at idle I'd find/rent an oil pressure test gauge - it goes into the oil pressure sending switch hole on the oil filter adapter.

Cold, you should have at least 20 - 25 psi at a 650 idle.

From your picture it looks like an awful lot of oil has been flying around in that timing chain area for there to be no oil flow..............

Hard to say what I hear with the exhaust partially disconnected, could only get 1 of the 2 big bolts to go in on the right bank.

As far an awful lot of oil on the chain area, I did overfill the crankcase by 8 additional qts (16 total) so that area would be wet, right?

Submariner409
09-02-12, 01:36 PM
The chaincase would be wet regardless - you cannot imagine the amount of oil that flies around in there when the engine is running normally. You even get some splatter out the fill cap hole at idle, and ask the guys who leave the fill cap off just how much oil gets out and onto everything in the engine compartment in a short time on the highway.....................

Here's a thought, though - get an assistant, remove the oil fill cap and have a GOOD flashlight in hand. Have the assistant start the engine and you look into the oil fill hole toward the front of the head - cam lobe area. If there's oil flow you'll see it running/splashing over the cam and lifter area.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 02:42 PM
This is how I primed my pump. The "Topsider" is made for marine applications but I've found it to be a great tool in the garage. It basically gives you a vacuum in the can when the handle is pumped. Also works great for cleaning out heater cores.

96659

Did you prime it with the oil pump installed? I bought a bigger version of what you have at Napa, and intially tried to get oil out of oil filter adapter through a port that is capped off adjacent to the oil pressure sensor. And didn't get hardly anything to come out.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 03:09 PM
Pulled the oil filter adapter off and tried sucking from the lower left hole on the block, got about 2 cups of oil out if that with lots of pumping on the suction platform. Then tried the upper right hole on the block and nothing came out, so I assume the upper right is the filtered supply to the engine.

I wonder if there is any way to make the pump spin while on the engine without having the crank rotating? Like some kind of pressure plate and an electric drill?

It shouldn't be this difficult.

Is there any way to check to make sure the balancer is making contact with the pump shim without removing the balancer. I torqued to 50nm +120 degrees. but if that wasn't making contact that would be a problem.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 03:42 PM
Installed the oil filter adapter, removed the oil filter, it was only half full of oil, after I dumped it last night to install the rear A/C bracket bolt. Started the engine briefly with the filter off. No oil coming out. :bigroll:

Couldn't prime with the suction tank. What do I do now.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 04:09 PM
I pulled the crank bolt out and noticed the balancer isn't flush with the end of the crank even though it was torqued down? Should it be flush? My torque wrench is pretty old, maybe its out of calibration?

Submariner409
09-02-12, 05:25 PM
After you lock the flexplate and begin the 37 lb/ft torque, can you see the balancer move in toward the timing cover ? The hub should wind up almost flush with the crank snout - once you get that initial 37 figure you should need a good, tough 6-point box end wrench and 2 or 3 foot pipe extension to get that 120 degrees twisted in - 2 full flats on the bolt head past the 37 point.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 05:35 PM
I haven't been locking the flexplate but rather wedging a prybar between the control arm and the balancer. It don't move when I'm torquing or degreeing only the bolt does as the balancer gets closer to the front cover. Been using a long 1/2" drive ratcheting torque wrench, then recently switched to my deflector type 1/2" torque wrench as I feel its more accurate. Haven't needed a cheeter bar for just 50nm/37ftlbs. Been using a snapon degree gauge that's inline with the socket to measure 120 degrees.

Got the right bank valve cover off good enough to rub some assembly lube on the lobes. Maybe I can divert a disaster on the top end while trying to prime the pump. It was still wet on top with oil. Will squirt some oil before sealing up. I don't know how hard the left cover will be to pry open with the water pump pulley on there.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 05:41 PM
If I decide to repack the pump again :want: could I use a little thicker grease next time? The petroleum jelly was pretty soft after a hot day in the shop, And even if I had refriderated it, by the time I got it all back together I think it would have gotten soft again?

Submariner409
09-02-12, 05:44 PM
I don't know how hard the left cover will be to pry open with the water pump pulley on there.

Don't even try.

I would be uncomfortable with trying to get accurate torque/degree specifications while locking the thing I'm trying to accurately "move".

Don't pack the pump with thick grease - the recommended petroleum jelly rapidly dissolves in (moving) oil, so that's all you need to keep the pump from air binding as it lifts the oil from the pan. Did you check the pump internal pressure bypass plunger and spring ? If that's hung open you get no output pressure.

Your half full filter says the pump is not working properly.

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 07:29 PM
Yeah checked the bypass plunger last night, it had plenty of tension on it.

Gave up on the torque wrench and the shop owner (my friend) lightly zipped the crank bolt on with an impact. Started it and it instantly had oil pressure. :thumbsup: :bouncy: Now if only we had thought about that last weekend. :rolleyes:

Now just letting it cook off the residual grease on the exhaust manifold's, and seeing what the temps are going to do...

Air bag warning is annoying, it trumps all other readouts until you turn the key off. Tempted to plug the sir fuse back in to see if the bag pops, after I might have messed up the clock spring. Thoughts?

Seems I forgot to hookup the coolant temp switch, can't readily see where the wire end is... Gonna let it cool so I can dig.

Also the oil light was flickering almost like it had a bad connection, but there was no command to shut down the engine. pushed on the connector seems ok? Gonna change the oil and filter and see what happens. I got a new oil press switch should I just changed it too?

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 10:14 PM
Changed the oil and the oil press switch. Plugged the coolant temp switch in, cranked her up oil light went and stays out. Started topping off coolant as she warmed up. Stepped away for a minute and came back to a coolant mess on the floor. Shut it off, added to the bottom of the reservoir cranked up put the cap on. Now running hot sitting at 233 with one fan on but so far not gurgling or out of control. Will let it cool down and top off. Hopefully there is just an air pocked in there? :hide:

MRneatfreak-
09-02-12, 11:06 PM
Also fighting a P0322 code Supposedly is set with a vac leak. but also see on the internet where it has to do with engine speed and cam timing.

The first crank starts right up and dies, second prolonged crank starts up and stays running.

After topping off coolant temps run between 212 and 233.

95STS
09-02-12, 11:09 PM
Stepped away for a minute and came back to a coolant mess on the floor.

Plugged up surge tank hose causes that

MRneatfreak-
09-03-12, 12:10 AM
Ok found this with google:

P0322 ICM 4X Reference Circuit Malfunction - With Automatic TransmissionPossible Causes Setting Conditions
•Fuel control signal circuit is open
•Fuel control signal circuit is shorted to ground
•IC module has failed
•PCM has failed
DTC P0340 and P1376 not set; engine running; CMP sensor signal detected in the last 4 seconds, and the PCM did not detect any 4X fuel control pulses for 4 seconds.

This code sets in 1 Trip(s).



I really hope it has nothing to do with the cam gear that passes by the cam sensor. If the timing was off like the cam sproket was out of time, wouldn't that cause other problems besides a hard start?

I almost drove the car home tonight but was afraid of getting stranded if it ever lost the cam signal timing. SES light is on, with PO322 current. As well as SIR message. Will have to reset the battery and hope the Cam Timing fixes itself.

MRneatfreak-
09-03-12, 12:30 AM
Plugged up surge tank hose causes that I guess that could be. It was clear before the project but I guess it could be plugged with a little bit of gasket or who knows what. Will have to open it up again. Good idea.

Manic Mechanic
09-03-12, 11:27 AM
If your cam timing was off it would cause other problems besides a hard start and it usually wouldn't set this code if it was close enough to start in the first place. But if your camshaft position sensor circuit is non-functional you'll be able to start it but it will take extended cranking and it will run ok. Check to see if the sensor is intact, it's back there on the rear pass side of the head and comes close to the frame. I removed mine before I dropped my cradle to prevent interference damage. Actually mine was already hit somehow, the metal bracket/shield was all deformed and jammed up against the connector. I don't know how that happened unless my uncle drove it with a broken engine mount for a while or similar. If the sensor is still in good shape make sure the connector has both wires intact and the contacts are all the way into the plug making good contact with the sensor. Check the harness for damage incurred when dropping the engine. If all looks good make sure it's connected securely and see if the code is still current. This could easily be a loose connection.

Vernon

MRneatfreak-
09-03-12, 07:49 PM
Replaced the Cam sensor, didn't fix the problem. Wires were intact, but I didn't dive into the harness too far. Maybe its time to either shoot wires for continuity or look for something else to cause this problem.

I just remembered that I didn't know which fuel lines to reconnect a week ago, so is it possible they are reversed at the intake rail and this is causing the hard start?

A few more current codes cropped up:
P0141= If the ECM determines (based on coolant temp) that too much time elapsed before the oxygen sensor began operating properly, it will set P0141

P0155= 02 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 2 Sensor 1)

P0135= O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1, Sensor 1)

When I clear all PCM codes with the engine running the engine dies, and its hard to start again.

Seems odd that the O2 sensors started to malfunction all of a sudden as soon as I plugged in the coolant sensor. Didn't have a problem with them before the project began. Perhaps they got contaminated with the repair processes? I didn't remove them.

I still haven't tried another car battery yet. Funds are low right now. Battery reads 12.2 before cranking, then I think 11.5 after it gets started, now remember it has to crank for a maybe 10 or so seconds before it starts due to the cam error. Battery is 5 years old this month.

I had removed the sway bar links from the front end so I could get the struts to install easier. Wanted to buy new ones but again the money issue. I drove the car about 3 miles home without them installed, and the ride was real bumpy.

MRneatfreak-
09-03-12, 08:37 PM
Also on the clock spring issue. My friend said there would be nothing to worry about by plugging the SIR fuse back in, as the SIR computer would sense a problem and disable the system anyway, if the clock spring was compromised.

How else would I tell if it was a gonner for sure? My steering wheel doesn't have any other buttons on it like my other 97 does for the radio and the blower/temp. This one is only a steering wheel w/ airbag. Would the horn be the only way to tell?

95STS
09-04-12, 12:48 AM
You better replace that battery before continuing chasing codes - low voltage makes all sorts of wacky things happen to the electronics throwing codes left and right.

Manic Mechanic
09-04-12, 11:58 AM
Replaced the Cam sensor, didn't fix the problem. Wires were intact, but I didn't dive into the harness too far. Maybe its time to either shoot wires for continuity or look for something else to cause this problem.
>Check for power and ground on the two wires with key on.

I just remembered that I didn't know which fuel lines to reconnect a week ago, so is it possible they are reversed at the intake rail and this is causing the hard start?
>I think not, I can't recall any engine in the last 20+ years where the fuel lines were the same size, return is always smaller therefore you can't switch them.


A few more current codes cropped up:
1. P0141= If the ECM determines (based on coolant temp) that too much time elapsed before the oxygen sensor began operating properly, it will set P0141
2. Seems odd that the O2 sensors started to malfunction all of a sudden as soon as I plugged in the coolant sensor.
>read these until you're no longer confused as to the timing of the code being set.

P0155= 02 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
P0135= O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
>O2's don't start working right until they reach operation temperature, the heater circuits are non-functional right now, another reason for the P0141. Check the underhood fuse box at OXYSEN1 and OXYSEN2 first. There should be VBAT on one of the four vehicle harness wires and ground on another, they will be the two that are both black on the O2 sensor wiring (not the vehicle harness the sensor wires). Also the two black sensors wires should ohm out around 12-16 ohm on the two black wires. If you don't have power or ground find out why, if the sensors are shorted or open they are bad.

When I clear all PCM codes with the engine running the engine dies, and its hard to start again.
> This is because it's already determined the firing order by trial and error when cranking due to the missing Camshaft sensor signal. This is exacly why the long crank/hard start, it tries every firing order two at a time until the engine runs and remembers for that run cycle only. When you clear the code it no longer knows where the crank is and therefore dies so you can start the learning process over again by cranking while it tries the possibilitys again.

Didn't have a problem with them before the project began. Perhaps they got contaminated with the repair processes? I didn't remove them.
> should be figured out by now.

I still haven't tried another car battery yet. Funds are low right now. Battery reads 12.2 before cranking, then I think 11.5 after it gets started, now remember it has to crank for a maybe 10 or so seconds before it starts due to the cam error. Battery is 5 years old this month.
>it's fine, see above as to why you have to crank so long.

I had removed the sway bar links from the front end so I could get the struts to install easier. Wanted to buy new ones but again the money issue. I drove the car about 3 miles home without them installed, and the ride was real bumpy.
>this seems to contradict the law of physics so it's probably due to something else, without a front sway bar your ride should be smoother due to completely independent front suspension, perhaps you mean it's bouncier?

One more thing, there's no such thing as quick on a head gasket repair for this engine, wanted to say that from day one. I just started mine.

Vernon

CadillacLuke24
09-04-12, 02:53 PM
As soon as you can, you should get a new battery. 12.2 Volts before cranking is on the deathbed.

89falcon
09-06-12, 10:08 PM
Yeah checked the bypass plunger last night, it had plenty of tension on it.

Gave up on the torque wrench and the shop owner (my friend) lightly zipped the crank bolt on with an impact. Started it and it instantly had oil pressure. :thumbsup: :bouncy: Now if only we had thought about that last weekend. :rolleyes:

Now just letting it cook off the residual grease on the exhaust manifold's, and seeing what the temps are going to do...

Air bag warning is annoying, it trumps all other readouts until you turn the key off. Tempted to plug the sir fuse back in to see if the bag pops, after I might have messed up the clock spring. Thoughts?

Seems I forgot to hookup the coolant temp switch, can't readily see where the wire end is... Gonna let it cool so I can dig.

Also the oil light was flickering almost like it had a bad connection, but there was no command to shut down the engine. pushed on the connector seems ok? Gonna change the oil and filter and see what happens. I got a new oil press switch should I just changed it too?

Yeah...as Sub indicated, if you aren't TERRIFIED that you are about to shear the crank bolt when getting the 120 degrees....it ain't tight enough and you did it wrong......

MRneatfreak-
09-06-12, 10:25 PM
Put a new battery in that I got from Advance Auto (had 25% off all batteries in stock), but it had a charge of 12.3v. Its sticker said it was new from 8/12 (last month), so I would have thought it would be ready to go? Anyway threw it on the charger while I found an errant ground wire by the tranny selector switch to bolt down.

I also measured ground at the Cam sensor plug (wire side) which was good with the ignition off. Turned the key on and the ground disappeared, and the only voltage I measured was 2.5 millivolts on the other pin? I didn't want to fry the PCM by trying to measure volts with the key cranking so I didn't try that.

Also the 02 sensor current codes went away.

So still fighting the P0322.
Thoughts?

MRneatfreak-
09-06-12, 10:28 PM
Yeah...as Sub indicated, if you aren't TERRIFIED that you are about to shear the crank bolt when getting the 120 degrees....it ain't tight enough and you did it wrong......

I did that procedure about 4 different times on this engine, was getting good at the 120 degrees, problem was it just wasn't tight enough. Maybe it was my dated torque wrench, or maybe cause I didn't lock down the flex plate, who knows.

My friend said as a lesson he's learned as an ASE Master Tech, and Shop Manager/owner, is to always crank down the harmonic balancer on any motor, as you ain't gonna hurt anything.

MRneatfreak-
09-07-12, 11:52 AM
Found this but no mention if I can measure a voltage or not. Maybe just shoot continuity from the IC to the cam sensor?

97123

97125

MRneatfreak-
09-07-12, 11:58 AM
Nevermind just studied how the sensor works.., looks like everytime the cam sprocket passes by the magnet (cam sensor) it generates a small trickle of power which is sent to the ICM and then later on to the PCM. Now that I know where it goes I shoot the wires. But now the ICM is suspect cause that was removed to drop the cradle, and to remove the valve cover. Maybe something is just loose on the plate that the coils attach to. :bighead:

Any words of caution before I disconnect the PCM to shoot the wiring?

*edit* Found these
97126

97127

MRneatfreak-
09-10-12, 04:21 PM
I haven't gotten around to checking the wires yet, been tied up with a hard hot start and hot stalling on my daily driver (olds 350 rocket).

But I was thinking about that cam sensor and how it operates. If it eventually learns the sequence of operation during the long cranks during starting, then why doesn't it just remember the new operation when it shuts down? When I first start it, it starts to run like normal then shuts off, then the long crank ensues which lasts about 10 seconds, at which point its fine till I shut it off (along with a current PCM code of course). If there was an intermittent open in a cam sensor wire, wouldn't the car quit running anyway?

Submariner409
09-10-12, 08:07 PM
I haven't gotten around to checking the wires yet, been tied up with a hard hot start and hot stalling on my daily driver (olds 350 rocket).

Check the carb float level - sounds like hot engine percolation. (Massive choke action)

MRneatfreak-
09-10-12, 11:13 PM
Thx, Yeah tore the edlebrock apart cleaned, and blew it all out, doublechecked the float hang both directions, made minor changes. Ultimately the biggest change of all was going back to a 160 T-stat from a 195 degree. Really seemed to help. Engine runs about 25 degrees over whatever T-stat is in there. So 215 degrees is too hot for carb'ed gas. Gone round and round with it, covered in another thread on a different forum. But you're right the digital airfuel ratio meter was screaming off the charts lean when it was hot, before I tore apart the carb, now its actually adjustable, and hovers around 13-15 after warm-up, depending on the cruise attitude.

Manic Mechanic
09-10-12, 11:37 PM
The cam sensor basically sets the crank to cams relationship during initial cranking and as long as the crankshaft sensors are operating properly it isn't necessary to continually reference this relationship to keep the firing order in sync. The PCM (or ignition module) actually keeps track of the crank based on the continuous feed of the crankshaft sensors and sense the number of pulses per revolution doesn't change the cam sensor is thereafter redundant. Your engine can start and run without a cam signal but not without a crank signal. But another thing the cam signal does is time the fuel injector firings so that they are spraying at the most advantageous time so the fuel is pulled into the cylinder as a vapor. Without a cam signal the fuel injectors (on most port fuel injected engines anyways) will be batch fired, meaning alternating four at a time. This does work but is not nearly as precise and efficient. If there was an intermittent open in the cam sensor you would just get a code and reduced efficiency any time it went non-functional. Depending on if it was working during cranking would determine how fast it would start. When you shut the ignition down the entire system is powered off but the crank is still turning to a stop, it doesn't instantly stop moving and lock into place just because it's no longer being actively pushed by combustion. Also the engine crank could always be turned while the ignition is off by hand or vehicle momentum in gear, esp. with a standard trans. So the PCM isn't keeping track of the crank when it's off. Therefore in absence of a new reference point during cranking to tell the PCM something along the lines of "At this point in the crankshafts 720 degrees of travel this is when cylinder #1 is at top dead center of the compression stroke. Therefore after 719 more degrees it will be there again" it won't know where the crank to valve relationship is. When it doesn't know it goes through a program made by smart engineers that have all day to figure out the fastest way to achieve this that fires cylinders in a certain order and monitors the crank speed, when it finds a strong acceleration the next cylinder is tried that would be behind the first, with continued success firing order is established and repeated every 720 degrees. Remember one crank rotation of 360 degrees will cycle the piston from top to bottom and back to top one time, 2 strokes by 1 down and 1 up. Since these are four stroke engines (intake, compression, power, exhaust, repeat). So 720 degrees of rotation will cycle one cylinder through all four strokes, down and up twice. This is a simple explanation and may not be exactly how it's done for every or any specific engine but it will give you an understanding of what's happening regardless.

Your cam sensor is a magnetically tripped on/off switch. Voltage is supplied on one wire and when the metal bump on the cam gear passes next to the sensor the magnetic contact pulls the circuit together inside the sensor allowing the voltage to travel back through the other wire to the PCM but at that point only because as the bump passes it quickly opens again. For this circuit to work you need constant voltage to the sensor, usually 5 volts or less. Also you need a properly functioning sensor, one that is open when there's not a piece of metal against it (air gap) and closed when it's there, and able to switch between these two states cleanly and consistently. Then the signal return circuit to the ignition module or PCM must be good and the module or PCM receiving the voltage blips must be able to process them properly while supply a path to ground for them. Also the mechanical end of this particular signal generator must be in proper working order, if the cam gear behind the sensor doesn't have the metal bump on it as in wrong gear or broken off or it's too far away as in worn components, or anything similar the prevents the bump from passing the sensor at the correct time and at the correct clearance it obviously won't work either. A missing signal that can be inferred from other means is better than a good one that is coming at the wrong time which can't be changed.

Check for voltage and ground at the sensor leads, if either is missing check the wires to and from, if those are good check voltage and grounds of the connected module (ignition or power train control) as it is supposed to be supplying those powers and grounds to the sensor. If everything checks good electronically then check the switching ability of the sensor itself using an ohm meter and waving a metal object passed it very close or a voltmeter back probed into the signal return wire with the engine cranking (running is too fast for voltmeter), if you have a scope you could view it in real time samples. If the switch part of the sensor works check the trigger for it itself. See if the cam gear behind the sensor is the correct one with the bump of metal for tripping the cam sensor and that the bump is there and passing the sensor close enough to trigger it without hitting it etc.

If I remember right your 97 has coil packs and an ignition module that grounds to the valve cover with a spring (may be completely wrong and I don't feel like looking it all up, hey I know what my 01 has) and maybe even some little ground straps for the valve covers due to this. All of those ground components must be there and good for the smaller voltage signals to work along with the larger ones and electronic interference. Make sure your ignition is grounded. I was going to say before but forgot and you found it anyways, most of the codes and problems arising after major engine work are overlooked or missing grounds, esp. with DIY guys. You all do it a lot. Pro's like me learn quickly to note all grounds and affirm their reconnection and condition during reassembly or suffer problems after every job. This includes the battery to engine connections and body to engine and body to battery ground straps.

Vernon

MRneatfreak-
09-11-12, 10:36 AM
If I remember right your 97 has coil packs and an ignition module that grounds to the valve cover with a spring (may be completely wrong and I don't feel like looking it all up, hey I know what my 01 has) and maybe even some little ground straps for the valve covers due to this. All of those ground components must be there and good for the smaller voltage signals to work along with the larger ones and electronic interference. Make sure your ignition is grounded. I was going to say before but forgot and you found it anyways, most of the codes and problems arising after major engine work are overlooked or missing grounds, esp. with DIY guys. You all do it a lot. Pro's like me learn quickly to note all grounds and affirm their reconnection and condition during reassembly or suffer problems after every job. This includes the battery to engine connections and body to engine and body to battery ground straps.

Vernon

I didn't highlight all of it but :bighead: Wow that was one hell of an explanation :worship:. Makes more sense now how the sensors work and why they don't save the information in the memory.

I'll admit I like working on my old non-computerized car over the Deville, been putting it off for a reason :hide:. I shot wires at my day job everyday years ago, and have grown weary of it. Huge cannon plug connectors with 10-60 pins (upper case alphabet followed by lowercase alphabet counterclockwise, needless to say I got good at my ABC's :shhh:) in them on aircraft. You referenced a spring on the valve covers? Don't recall seeing a spring, only the coil base plate and a ground to it. The missing link? Hopefully once I finally dig in and commit, I'll be able to locate the problem. I need to hurry up, cause there is a local boneyard that has a 99 Deville that is pretty much complete already got the oil pump and the bushing off it and if I needed a coil plate spring it should have one.

You guys are the best.

Ranger
09-11-12, 11:48 AM
I don't recall any spring when I changed the plugs on my '97. I think it was grounded by the mounting bolts. See the diagram below.

Be advised that there is a hidden mounting bolt on the backside of the ICM that requires the Braille method to remove and install.

Submariner409
09-11-12, 04:41 PM
The coil cassette ground spring started in 2000 - with the change to COP ignition. Some of the pre-2000 engines use a dedicated ICM-to-engine ground wire......... the black "where does this wire go" of engine rebuild forums.

MRneatfreak-
09-11-12, 07:32 PM
The black "where does this wire go" of engine rebuild forums.

:brutal:

MRneatfreak-
09-12-12, 07:31 PM
Followed the checks according to what I posted on the troubleshooting steps and found nothing out of the ordinary. Got to step 8 which calls for a jumper, will have to go to the boneyard to snip one off. Basically step 8 checks the coils which have to be good. After that the steps stray elsewhere. So at this point I'm going to say the wiring is good for the cam sensor to get to the PCM according to the steps. I however did my own t/s and shot from pin B of the cam sensor plug to the plug at the Ignition Module and that checked good for both pins/wires A and B. But when I tried to shoot continuity through the Ignition Module (the jack side) I got an open? Maybe that's normal because power isn't applied and measuring continuity is impossible that's why I would have to measure frequency during step 8 which I stopped at?

Gonna take the coils off and see if I trace a path through the base plate of the Ignition module to the other side, might be impossible?

Another thought. We removed the same exact cam sprocket gear that is sensed by the cam sensor in order to get the timing chain and guide/slides all lined up. It would only go back on one way right? I remember a guide pin hole in the sprocket but just saying...

I hope I find something on the ICM base plate.

MRneatfreak-
09-12-12, 08:17 PM
Post #97 the second diagram, I found the cam sensor jack on the base plate (C2) both pins A and B are shorted to pin B of the jack right next to it (C1), and pin B (C1) is "Crank A Low"? Wouldn't the cam sensor wire need its own dedicated signal wire seperate from the crank signal of "sensor A"?

MRneatfreak-
09-12-12, 09:38 PM
I put everything back together. Started it on the first try and that cam sensor code went away! :)

I drove it about 15 minutes, checked it with my scan tool, to see if everything had run its checks yet, and it hadn't. Will have to drive it some more to make sure all the gremlins are run off.

Don't know what I did to fix it? Maybe reseatting the dual connectors on the PCM or adjusting the plug wires on the ICM?

Just have to work on the some other problems that cropped up. Air ride in the back isn't working, driver's rear is all the way down, and the pump in the rear runs non stop, and the ride isn't typcial of a caddy (real firm and bumpy). Also have some MMM codes, and that darn clock spring I broke, but those can be dealt with in another thread.

*Edit- looks like the IPC and MMM's are all related for the SIR which has the clock spring issue, and the passengers mirror which was removed by the automated car wash. On the clock spring Rock auto has one for $199/std. motor and another for $240 airtex/wells, which one should I get, if not used?