: Top Tier Detergent Gasolines



V Wagon
08-02-12, 04:58 PM
I randomly stumbled across something about this over the weekend and ended up at the website for it.
http://www.toptiergas.com/
I was just looking through bulletins and saw the GM actually issud a TSB about it as well.
Basically the only interesting thing I saw in the bulletin I didn't see on the site above was this picture showing a 10,000 mile valve with the minimum legal required aditive package and 10,000 mile valve wtih the top tier gasoline additive.
Biggest thing of note, there are some pretty small chains on there and BP isn't on there. If i saw a BP and say a KwikTrip next to each other I would have gone to BP every time.
The bulletin just came out July 19. Interesting that I stumbled across the information through my own random curiosity so soon after this was put out.

RippyPartsDept
08-02-12, 05:07 PM
yeah top tier gas (and that website) has been mentioned a lot on this site in the last few years ... maybe not so much in the V-forums tho

1997BlackETC
08-02-12, 05:54 PM
At least when I use to own a gas station all the gas was picked up at the same place. I was unbranded but sometimes they went to the mobil terminal, other times shell. This was a ways back so maybe things have changed?

baabootoo
08-02-12, 06:12 PM
I see their point, but I'd like to see some more data on those two valves, and what the details of the test were. I'm sure other gas stations would have their views also. I did my own test and found some gasoline where the ethanol? would separate after only a couple of weeks, and never remix together. Obviously, i don't use that stuff at all. It was bigger names too. Since I'm pushing 30K, I may just change my fuel filter now that i think of it!

Crystal Red CTS-V
08-02-12, 06:23 PM
Fortunate to have an ethanol free choice here.

DiamondWhtV
08-02-12, 06:24 PM
I may just change my fuel filter now that i think of it!

Correct me if I am wrong. I didn't think we had a servicable fuel filter. I thought it was part of the fuel pump now. Can you clarify?

Oh and here in Dallas...Ethanol is the norm...10% as a matter of fact. You have to drive way out of the county to get some decent fuel.

smackdownCTSV
08-02-12, 06:41 PM
Yes, that's all BS. Just use whatever gas doesn't give you KNK retard.

Stillborn
08-02-12, 07:03 PM
seems like "big oil" propaganda to me. as stated just get the highest octane you can. IE:93

Xaqtly
08-02-12, 07:37 PM
Unless you're in CA, AZ or NV in which case you get crappy watered down 91 that's really closer to 89. I still find it insane that in one of the hottest parts of the country, we have the lowest octane gas available.

RippyPartsDept
08-02-12, 08:06 PM
higher octane gas does not mean better gas

and i believe that the V does not require premium gas

V Wagon
08-02-12, 08:56 PM
The valve pictures are from the GM tsb, not from anything from an oil company. I guess you can choose to ignore them still but if yoy read the site, several manufacturers pushed for this and it isn't even just big oil chains stations carrying it.

smackdownCTSV
08-02-12, 10:05 PM
higher octane gas does not mean better gas

and i believe that the V does not require premium gas

Recommenced in the manual and fuel door.

tedcmiller
08-02-12, 10:29 PM
Top Tier gasolines might be the same as all other brands (I don't know), but they are widely advertised as containing additives that non-Top Tier gasolines do not (I don't know). Beliefs and facts are not necessairly the same thing. In any case, Top-Tier does not imply higher octane.

V Wagon
08-02-12, 10:52 PM
It says nothing about octane so I would guess that additive package would have to be in all grades at the stations listed that carry it. I believe the site says that a station not on the list could have the top tier additives but stations of the listed chains are required to. I don't know how the additives are mixed with the fuel to know if station a and b across the street from each other getting fuel from the same tanker could get different additives in the fuel either.

V Wagon
08-02-12, 10:58 PM
What I do know, is that as mentioned above when a BP and say a kwik trip are next to each other I would have hit the BP every time. After seeing that list I'll hit the Kwik Trip in the future instead.

Stephen with a V
08-03-12, 12:17 AM
higher octane gas does not mean better gas

and i believe that the V does not require premium gas

The 2012 manual actually suggests 93 octane with 91 as a minimum.

1997BlackETC
08-03-12, 12:53 AM
Does anybody run regular all the time in a 2009 plus V with no problems? I'm kinda a cheapo and would run regular if I could get a way with it. Thinking about running fairly empty and trying ten bucks of regular to see if I get knock, maybe I'll be fine with it and save over 30 cents a gallon, that would amount to around 25 bucks a week for me with the amount I drive, thats like a free steak dinner ever week.

Xaqtly
08-03-12, 01:13 AM
higher octane gas does not mean better gas

and i believe that the V does not require premium gas

Right, but what higher octane does is raise the detonation threshold, allowing for higher temperatures in the combustion chamber without detonation. For those of us in the desert, it's important to run the highest octane possible to prevent possible detonation, or a the very least to continue to run at full power without the ECU pulling timing. The LSA isn't even a particularly low compression engine at 9.1:1, so this should be a concern to anybody who lives in a hot climate. I would never run this car on anything lower than 91, and I'd prefer 93. We just don't have 93 out here.

smackdownCTSV
08-03-12, 08:28 AM
Does anybody run regular all the time in a 2009 plus V with no problems? I'm kinda a cheapo and would run regular if I could get a way with it. Thinking about running fairly empty and trying ten bucks of regular to see if I get knock, maybe I'll be fine with it and save over 30 cents a gallon, that would amount to around 25 bucks a week for me with the amount I drive, thats like a free steak dinner ever week.

As long as it's stock. I had a tank of regular by mistake, only got on it a few times. It would be a good idea to check KNK if you're going to do it regularly.

larry arizona
08-03-12, 08:40 AM
1997, If you are going to run 87 all the time, get a safe tune for it. You will be constantly running into KR and this will in fact HURT your MPG and the savings you think you will be getting. So you get 5 tanks of gas per week (you stated $25 per week savings and you would save $5 a tank for a $0.30 price diff per gallon).

Dogbreath
08-03-12, 08:53 AM
What I find interesting about the picture is that #2 has a dirty stem. Since the stem is not subject to the fuel air mixture, something else must be going on.

It's also not clear to me that any station actually sells gas with the minimum detergent package.

thebigjimsho
08-03-12, 08:57 AM
The gas cap says "PREMIUM REQUIRED"...

RippyPartsDept
08-03-12, 09:36 AM
ok ok ok

i stand corrected ... geez

thebigjimsho
08-03-12, 09:53 AM
Don't want any lawsuits where some guy saw another guy say regular was OK and blew his up, do you? Did you tell that guy in the Seville Forum to flush his engine with water from a hose, too?

lulz

RippyPartsDept
08-03-12, 11:00 AM
:wave: yeah that was me :cool2:

SC2150
08-03-12, 11:39 AM
This is very important with traditional port injection motors, but any DI motor the fuel never touches the inlet side of the valves and will have zero effect.

These deposits are caused by the oil ingestion into the intake air charge.....install a properly functioning oil separating catchcan system and you eliminate the cause and wont have to deal with this issue.

And most cans on the market let almost as much oil through as they trap so only use one that is proven to trap most all oil. RX is the most effective preiod, Saikou Micchi very good, AMW & Elite are very good, but most others (moroso included) let a ton of oil past to still ingest.

To test any can simply buy a clear glass inline fuel filter from any autoparts store and install it between the intake manifold vacuum barb and the cans outlet and you will see in short order how well a can does, or does not work. All cans will catch oil...it is what gets past that is of concern. You want NO oil entering the intake air charge. :thumbsup:

RippyPartsDept
08-03-12, 11:53 AM
the CTS-V isn't a DI motor though ... and doesn't have much of a reputation for oil ingestion
and if they stick to top tier gas then the additive packages in the top tier gas should keep the valves clean
(like the one on the left in the illustration from the TSB)

Karch
08-03-12, 12:00 PM
Does anybody run regular all the time in a 2009 plus V with no problems? I'm kinda a cheapo and would run regular if I could get a way with it. Thinking about running fairly empty and trying ten bucks of regular to see if I get knock, maybe I'll be fine with it and save over 30 cents a gallon, that would amount to around 25 bucks a week for me with the amount I drive, thats like a free steak dinner ever week.

Are you serious? Why would you buy a V in the first place?

First, at least out here, I normally see a 20 cent split between regular and premium, except at the snootiest stations in the highest parts of town (Bel Air, Brentwood, and Beverly Hills).
Second, if you are putting close to 83+ gallons a week in your car, that's gotta be close to 1K miles a week. WOW. Your depreciation due to miles is far greater than 10x the gas savings using regular.

While you may get by with regular, I, for the life of me, can't see how I would ever do that as a normal practice on anything boosted, nor high compression, unless DI and specifically recommended by the OEM. Sure, the ECM may learn and pull timing out, but then you lose a bit of mileage, so what's the gain?

Anyone, to each his own.

Double e
08-03-12, 12:29 PM
I have to agree with Karch. Your car to do as seen fit...

but it doesn't seem rational to have a high performance vehicle, not give it fuel that's specified, load it with miles, face the low MPG rating, keep tires on it, pay the insurance, property tax & depreciation and try to save a few dollars at every fill up.

The most important thing of all of those things that keep it running right, is where the attempt is to save $?

I could see re-examining the insurance policy, using cheaper tires, disputing the property tax values or maybe using a lower cost synthetic oil but to me, fuel is more impactful to operation on an ongoing basis than all of the others. Especially if I'm doing anything close to 1000 miles/week.

V Wagon
08-03-12, 01:22 PM
Well, you might have a point on all fronts but insurance. I had a Cobalt SS/TC, and a Lightning. Calling the insurance man when looking at buying the V was supposed to be what killed my stupid idea. But when I got the quote Cobalt SS > Lightning > V. The V's have very cheap insurance due to the CTS' great safety ratings.

larry arizona
08-03-12, 05:27 PM
CTS has 5 star safety rating also the "type" of person who typically buys a V is not in a high risk pool. Cobalt SS's are generally driven by the high risk pool. Funny thing when I got my insurance quote, it was $6 more per year for the V and a standard CTS.

marvin-miller
08-03-12, 09:22 PM
At least when I use to own a gas station all the gas was picked up at the same place. I was unbranded but sometimes they went to the mobil terminal, other times shell. This was a ways back so maybe things have changed?

Up here (Canada) we have Chevron 94 Octane premium. It's probably the best fuel a person can get (today). I met a person who drove fuel trucks and he said it was common practice to mix different brands when the bulk tanks were running low - basically top up their tanker trucks with anyone's fuel. Apparently, Chevron was the only company that would not allow any other fuel to be mixed with theirs :-) They'd send a truck out half empty if the bulk tanks were low - there was no way they'd let any other brand of fuel contaminate theirs.

Shell is widely acknowledged as the worst offender when it comes to blending fuel. It seems, each year, we hear horror stories from folks further up north where Shell fuel, once again, was blended incorrectly and it caused severe damage to in-tank fuel pumps on vehicles. This has been covered in trade publications many times (usually every winter). Each time, Shell agreed to pay for all the repairs. It would be nice if they would address the actual issue but hey....

Bottom line, up here Chevron cares a great deal about the actual product they sell (fuel). It's also probably the highest octane rating at 94.

RippyPartsDept
08-04-12, 08:36 AM
hmm interesting ... Shell is the best gas around here

larry arizona
08-04-12, 08:48 AM
wow gas these days is so questionable. For example, All gas in south eastern michigan comes from the Marathon refinery south of Detroit. I assume that each brand name can still add certain additives for their own specs. What I do know is I have monitored Knock from various brands locally and I am currently running 93 BP from the same local gas station whenever I can fill there and I get zero KR with this source. I did get some KR on multiple sources of 93 Shell and Valero's.

All stations are not created equal. The BP I frequent does NOT add ethanol, yet 3/4's of a mile down the same road there is another BP that adds 10% ethanol?? GO figure. I don't think it is as easy as just following a list of Top Tier as Shell around SE Michigan BLOWS. I suppose if you are concerned about valve build up, throw in some techron once in awhile.

Also +1 on a catchcan. This is the MAIN source of fouled valves in a boosted engine.

Aurora40
08-04-12, 09:07 AM
I randomly stumbled across something about this over the weekend and ended up at the website for it.
http://www.toptiergas.com/
I was just looking through bulletins and saw the GM actually issud a TSB about it as well.
...
The bulletin just came out July 19. Interesting that I stumbled across the information through my own random curiosity so soon after this was put out.
GM was one of the original drivers behind creating the Top Tier certification. I suspect lower quality gas affects their bottom line through warranty repairs, etc. I believe the first TSB on Top Tier was 4-06-04-047A, which came out in 2004. With some bulletins, they will simply 'bump' them to the top again, by updating the models they apply to, etc. But it's the same information that has been around for about 10 years. So it's no amazing coincidence that you found it just as you were looking for it. :)

I'd also point out that Top Tier applies to all octanes in a company's range to get certified. But some brands of premium have enough additives to meet Top Tier. They simply don't have them in their regular grades, thus aren't certified. So if you use premium exclusively, the detergent levels are likely to be greater than the minimum required by law, and it becomes less important to seek out a "Top Tier" station.

SC2150
08-04-12, 01:29 PM
True as far as the valves ( I need to look at the section these threads are in before replying!) but the oil ingestion makes the intercoolers look like this on the V in 10-15k miles as it bakes onto the intercooler and begins to reduce its ability to transfer heat and obstructs the flow:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/RevXtreme1/Maggieintercoolerwithoilcontamination.jpg

Blakester
08-04-12, 02:11 PM
What year is your V. I have a Lightning and have exp. with intercooler fouling

BIC
08-05-12, 02:54 PM
What I do know, is that as mentioned above when a BP and say a kwik trip are next to each other I would have hit the BP every time. After seeing that list I'll hit the Kwik Trip in the future instead.

Maybe not. I did bypass BP for QuickTrip up until a few years ago. Then BP created Invigorate, which seems to be their own version of Top Tier gas. It may only be available east of the Rockies, not sure. See, http://mybpstation.com/fuels/bp-gasoline/ . BP claims it's better than Top Tier, but my guess is it's equivalent.

Also, last year, Costco started Kirkland Signature Clean Power gas, apparently their own version of Top Tier. See, http://shop.costco.com/In-The-Warehouse/Gasoline/Clean-Power.aspx . I try and buy that when I can as it's usually a nickel or more cheaper than elsewhere.

I've always been surprised that the Top Tier stations never advertise this fact on their pumps. I always look for Top Tier or BP/Costco equivalents.

Ross L
08-05-12, 05:19 PM
but the oil ingestion makes the intercoolers look like this on the V in 10-15k miles as it bakes onto the intercooler and begins to reduce its ability to transfer heat and obstructs the flow:

My intercooler looks NOTHING like that at 40K with a 2.55 upper, D3 intake and no catch can(s). Guess I'm just lucky ;)
Ross

baabootoo
08-05-12, 05:53 PM
True as far as the valves ( I need to look at the section these threads are in before replying!) but the oil ingestion makes the intercoolers look like this on the V in 10-15k miles as it bakes onto the intercooler and begins to reduce its ability to transfer heat and obstructs the flow:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/RevXtreme1/Maggieintercoolerwithoilcontamination.jpg

Was that synthetic oil? It sure looks burned bad.

SC2150
08-06-12, 04:24 PM
Synthetic oil. Ross, can you post some pictures? Have never seen one not getting clogged and we are into the motors non stop here. I assume you broke the car in hard and got a great ring reat? :thumbsup:

HUGN*RDS
03-05-13, 01:55 PM
I suppose if I made a new thread somone would pull up some links of search results, including this thread! my question is, does anybody feel this top tier gasoline argument is valid? do the refineries send the fuel to all places or is it specialized? I use Shell mostly (because of my credit card and the 5% cash back) but I don't always. I wonder what my intake valves will look like after a few years of not-so-great gasoline. I also wonder if how I drive my car will affect build-up like we're talking here. Priemium near me is between $3.80 and $4.10. Detergents in gasoline, good or bad?

Here's a link for reading more:
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

SC2150
03-05-13, 02:11 PM
For a port injected or carburated engine the top tier fuels work excellent....the additives are added at the bulk distribution points, not at the refineries. But for any direct injection engine since no fuel passes the intake valves there is absolutely no effect on using top tier or generic as far as valve deposits.

Now the injectors would stay clean longer....but injectors have not been failing on these engines that we have seen.....so that may be a mute point.

The only way to keep the intake valves from coking is to prevent and trap the oil before it ingests into the intake air charge.

Hope that answers your question. Lots of pictures shoing port injection valves clean at over 100k miles using top tier fuels, and DI engines coked up with deposits in 8-12k miles as it has no effect if it does not pass the valves.

JFJr
03-05-13, 02:23 PM
For a port injected or carburated engine the top tier fuels work excellent....the additives are added at the bulk distribution points, not at the refineries. But for any direct injection engine since no fuel passes the intake valves there is absolutely no effect on using top tier or generic as far as valve deposits.As direct injection becomes more common, what are manufacturers doing to keep intake valves clean?

Jud

SC2150
03-05-13, 04:10 PM
So far the PR statements are there is no issue. From the engineering side all are scrambling. Currently pretty much all imports are DI and all 4 & 6cylinder domestics are except Chrylser is slow to adopt it. By 2015 all domestic V8 etc. will be DI.

Lexus has a blend of DI for 90% of the fuel delivery where they also have low pressure supplemental port injectors to help with the low RPM torque that DI's are lacking (mre than made up for after 2k rpm in general). This also helps slightly to reduce the coking, but it is not enough to make much difference.

BMW either removes the heads or uses a media blast system using crushed walnut shells so they can remove the deposits one cylinder at a time w/out engine dissasembly. Lexus removes the heads and does in manually, same for Ford & GM and Hyundai.

As it is currently, the service centers will reccomend an upper induction cleaning service to "restore lost power & fuel economy", but done to many times and the pistons and cylinder wall scouring causes even more damage.

Only a fraction of 1 % of the car & light truck buying public are aware of this issue so as of now, most try and pretend it is not an issue and by the time the customer is fe up they steer you into a new vehicle.

Understand publically this is a huge issue if more become educated on it, but with only a small percentage understanding and seeing it in person, it is doubtfull it will become a class action issue.

:thumbsup:

JFJr
03-05-13, 04:39 PM
Understand publically this is a huge issue if more become educated on it, but with only a small percentage understanding and seeing it in person, it is doubtfull it will become a class action issue.
Thanks for your thoughts. Maybe coating valves with Teflon or some other super slippery material, combined with a simple, inexpensive cleaning procedure, aided by focused engineering, is needed.

Jud

RippyPartsDept
03-05-13, 04:42 PM
why would there be a class action?

there's a design/engineering decision being made to go from port injection to DI and there are pros and cons to that decision

just because it's not perfect doesn't mean the design is defective

....

found an interesting read about DI technology in general on edmunds... here's the section where they talk about GM/Cadillac's DI engines

Many automakers’ gasoline DI engines do not appear to exhibit any carbon build-up issues at all, however. Digging into online threads about Cadillac’s 3.6-liter DI V6 in its popular CTS lineup does reveal some owner concerns about carbon build-up, but it’s difficult to find even a single report that any build-up has actually occurred – a record that is notable considering that Cadillac has sold more than 200,000 CTS models with DI V6s (Audi sold fewer than 2,000 RS 4s in the US during its two-year sales run).
Haider, GM’s V6 assistant chief engineer, explained how GM has designed its DI engines to combat carbon buildup: “We maintain great engine function and performance in our all our DI engines through an optimization strategy with our valve events,” he said. “Our intake-cam timing, injector targeting and timing of the injection events are optimized to avoid direct fuel contact on the intake valves. This strategy keeps smoke and soot formation to an absolute minimum, which in turn prevents excessive deposit formation.”
full article: http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

cruiser68
03-05-13, 04:58 PM
I would think the old GM Top Engine Cleaner might help with DI engines. I used it in previous V8's. You spray it into the intake while it is running and end up spraying until it stalls. Leave it sit overnight and watch the smoke show when you start it up. With the oil ingestion on these engines, I would thing a DI valve would just continue to collect burnt on oil. Catch can definitely helps A LOT on my engine.

RippyPartsDept
03-05-13, 05:03 PM
the EPA put the kibosh on that stuff years back

people usually use seafoam in a similar fashion

i wouldn't but that's what people do ... there's videos all over youtube

SC2150
03-05-13, 07:46 PM
You dont want to do to many upper induction cleanings as every time you break those hard deposits loose, some are forced between the piston and cylinder wall and it causes scouring. If it is not to deep it isnt an issue, but it becomes an issue if done to often.

On the edmunds quote, the engineer is spinning his reply. He does not answer directly to the coking, but the carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and he is correct (partially). The carbon build up is an issue as far as long term degradation of maintaining the correctly designed burn pattern and the quench areas working as designed, but there is absolutely nothing in the design that addresses the coking of the intake valves, and I guess class action is a strong term to use, but this coking is not an intended side effect of the DI's....it was not anticipated to be this much of an issues, and working on ALL breeds of DI engines I can attest it is as big of an issue with all, not just GM.

To see, just call any locall automotive machine shop and ask about the buildup on the intake valves with DI engines. Every machine shop is dealing with these steadily...and making steady $ from the dealers. Or just look at the pictures.....and as always, anyone that thinks this is not an issues with all, stop in and for no charge we will show you on your engine with a boroscope while your here present.

GM dealers are some of our biggest customers for the oil separating catchcan systems...and we sign up new ones (they seak us out, we dont prospect) every week. As well as Jaguar, Hyundai, Ford, Chrysler, etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQZPYz6JxOk

This link is probably the best to show EVERY brand of DI motor has this issue:

http://www.google.com/search?q=intake+valve+buildup&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=K4U2UZufFI-W8gSW9oDQDg&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=2021&bih=875

There is not a single manufacturer that is publically acknowledging this issue....but any mechanic tearing down these engines can verify how bad it is. Keep the public in the dark is much easier than dealing with it properly.

:thumbsup:

RippyPartsDept
03-05-13, 09:00 PM
So when do you think the manufacturers will start incorporating their own catch-cans ??

RapidRob
03-05-13, 09:57 PM
^^^ - Probably about as quickly as they fixed the CTS-V's SC isolator rattle problem.

Rob

RippyPartsDept
03-06-13, 08:45 AM
well they at least acknowledge that there's a problem with carbon when it comes to DI engine design

the CTS-V isolator rattle was a design choice

HUGN*RDS
03-06-13, 09:22 AM
I know our V8's aren't direct injection, so I was more wondering what sort of effects non-top tier gas has on our regular FI engines after prolonged use.

RippyPartsDept
03-06-13, 10:43 AM
I know our V8's aren't direct injection, so I was more wondering what sort of effects non-top tier gas has on our regular FI engines after prolonged use.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9107/shellgas1.jpg

you'll get worse gas mileage for sure

SC2150
03-06-13, 12:38 PM
We see intake valves on non DI engines look cleaner than the Shell pictures after 100k plus miles if top tiers were used. (those pictures by shell are actual test results.....but as there is oil ingestion due to no trapping the oil before it enters the intake air charge there are still some deposits....but those pictures are from non DI engines).

The advantages for non DI engines is any oil ingestion causes detonation and less ebergy released per combustive event (only fuel and air is what you want) as the oil does not burn unless hot and under pressure, and then very incomplete. The PCM will pull timing before the human ear can detect the detonation so you never here the "death rattle" of old days. If your not running at the optimine timing advance thats less fuel economy, etc. The most common result is the timing tables default to the low octaine tables even if running 93. Then long term the ringlands become gunked up from the residue of the oil ingestion and cannot move freely to maintain proper seal so excess blow by and increased oil consumption is the result.

So there is not a newer gasoline car or light truck on the road today they dosent need one.

On to when the manufacturers will incorporate them? Never. They cannot make them at a cost effective price point to purify the trapped oil of the concentrated damaging componds caught with the oil so it cant be returned to the crankcase (some catchcan manufactures that dont understand this add a return line to the crankcase reintroducing the harmfull concentrates back into the oil shortning engine life as a result) and the buying public will not accept another maintanance step (emptying the can each 5 k miles or so). as they have beem conditioned to buy a car , put gas in and drive for 10k plus miles before even thinking about having the hood opened.

If we still had engines prefilled with break-in oil from the factory instead of M1 then we would not have all these engines with rings noted seated properly in the first 500 miles and not have such an issues with oil consumption. (beak in oil needs to be removed at 500-1000 miles and no one wants to come back for service in 1000 miles with a new car).

The engineers at all manufacurers have developed excellent oil separating catch cans, but are always nixed by accounting, marketing, legal, and upper brass.

Now go to a Lambo, Ferrari, masseratie, etc. (any of the $200-300k super cars) and they have them. In fact maserati has had since the late 50's early 60's.

We had the GM drivetrain rep for the SE stop in unannounced last year and asked us to install one on a new full sized silverado trk, then later a new camaro....but haven't heard back much since except the rep was very impressed with the function. But I highly doubt there will ever be a factory installed solution as 99% plus of the car buying public is not aware of the issue.

If the average car or light truck was designed by the engineers to be the best possible, we would not have any vehicles we could buy for less than $200k plus....so the lines are drawn un just how well any production vehicle can be designed and manufactured.

Each model, sub model, etc. must fall into the target price for the demographic sales is targeting...and the competition is tuff as each auto manufacturer domestic and foriegn are producing vehicles to appeal to the masses....so even a $1-2 part or improvement can and is nixed all the time to the extreme frustration of the engineers that have great solutions/improvements that make common sense.....but the battle is always uphill and most are shot down before going very far.

----------

We see intake valves on non DI engines look cleaner than the Shell pictures after 100k plus miles if top tiers were used. (those pictures by shell are actual test results.....but as there is oil ingestion due to no trapping the oil before it enters the intake air charge there are still some deposits....but those pictures are from non DI engines).

The advantages for non DI engines is any oil ingestion causes detonation and less ebergy released per combustive event (only fuel and air is what you want) as the oil does not burn unless hot and under pressure, and then very incomplete. The PCM will pull timing before the human ear can detect the detonation so you never here the "death rattle" of old days. If your not running at the optimine timing advance thats less fuel economy, etc. The most common result is the timing tables default to the low octaine tables even if running 93. Then long term the ringlands become gunked up from the residue of the oil ingestion and cannot move freely to maintain proper seal so excess blow by and increased oil consumption is the result.

So there is not a newer gasoline car or light truck on the road today they dosent need one.

On to when the manufacturers will incorporate them? Never. They cannot make them at a cost effective price point to purify the trapped oil of the concentrated damaging componds caught with the oil so it cant be returned to the crankcase (some catchcan manufactures that dont understand this add a return line to the crankcase reintroducing the harmfull concentrates back into the oil shortning engine life as a result) and the buying public will not accept another maintanance step (emptying the can each 5 k miles or so). as they have beem conditioned to buy a car , put gas in and drive for 10k plus miles before even thinking about having the hood opened.

If we still had engines prefilled with break-in oil from the factory instead of M1 then we would not have all these engines with rings noted seated properly in the first 500 miles and not have such an issues with oil consumption. (beak in oil needs to be removed at 500-1000 miles and no one wants to come back for service in 1000 miles with a new car).

The engineers at all manufacurers have developed excellent oil separating catch cans, but are always nixed by accounting, marketing, legal, and upper brass.

Now go to a Lambo, Ferrari, masseratie, etc. (any of the $200-300k super cars) and they have them. In fact maserati has had since the late 50's early 60's.

We had the GM drivetrain rep for the SE stop in unannounced last year and asked us to install one on a new full sized silverado trk, then later a new camaro....but haven't heard back much since except the rep was very impressed with the function. But I highly doubt there will ever be a factory installed solution as 99% plus of the car buying public is not aware of the issue.

If the average car or light truck was designed by the engineers to be the best possible, we would not have any vehicles we could buy for less than $200k plus....so the lines are drawn un just how well any production vehicle can be designed and manufactured.

Each model, sub model, etc. must fall into the target price for the demographic sales is targeting...and the competition is tuff as each auto manufacturer domestic and foriegn are producing vehicles to appeal to the masses....so even a $1-2 part or improvement can and is nixed all the time to the extreme frustration of the engineers that have great solutions/improvements that make common sense.....but the battle is always uphill and most are shot down before going very far.

vagondr
03-06-13, 01:03 PM
Does installation of a catchcan have any emissions or warranty implications?

RippyPartsDept
03-06-13, 01:26 PM
your warranty will be negatively impacted by any modification that causes a failure
said another way
any failure not caused by modification will be covered by the warranty

SC2150
03-06-13, 01:58 PM
Chris is correct. Put heads/cam on and your drivetrain warranty could be gone, but not your AC, etc.

The RX catchcan has zero effect on either as it maintains all emmissions compliance and has only positive effects on the engine so it cannot cause any failures.

We have over 11,000 of these in use over the past 9-10 years and never a warranty denied. Also, GM dealers (as well as Jaguar, Ford, etc.) are some of our biggest customers for these and they sell and install a ton of them in their parts departments....from Nickey Chev Chicago, to all parts of the US. We also are asked to speak and do seminars on the oil ingestion issues, causes, and preventing etc. We have a multi dealer event hosted by Cox Chevrolete coming up in April where app a dozed dealers and GM reps will be that they scheduled us for.

HUGN*RDS
03-06-13, 04:13 PM
Does installation of a catchcan have any emissions or warranty implications?
For emissions, I would say yes because instead of the pressure from the crank-case forcing oil into the intake track (which in turn burns the oil), the oil will now be mostly deposited into the catch can in it's route to the intake track. The catch can's purpose is to support blow-by if I am not mistaken, and that's where the oil comes from.

The catch can wouldn't ever contribute to your engine failing or warranty problems, only if the catch can got clogged somehow I suppose..I read on here somewhere a person's catch can got clogged on both ends. I would just go with a reputable brand and you should be fine, that and clean it every-so often..

DCV
03-06-13, 04:53 PM
I want no part of a DI engine. Audi, BMW, Porsche, VW and others all get gunked up intake valves with DI and they just about refuse to fix it. The fix is to manually scrape it away which means it comes right back. The Audi RS4 is notorious for this problem.... Even the R8 has it. So, no thanks give me regular fuel injection.

CavemanB52
03-06-13, 07:39 PM
Just to be clear. The V2 is not DI right? But it would be good to install a catch can anyway? And how much is the average install. Please recommend the best brands.

1997BlackETC
03-06-13, 08:00 PM
Nope the V's are not direct injected, although the 3.6 liter on the regular CTS is and they don't have any problems with that set up, they did it right. I never bothered with a catch can, I think they are a waste of time and money.

Karch
03-06-13, 08:06 PM
****SARCASM ALERT****

Yeah, I love that Shell gasoline. Who wouldn't want nitrogen molecules in your fuel, that way it can react with the nitrogen in the air.
Heck, nitrous is mostly nitrogen. It's like supercharging your engine with an inert gas.

CavemanB52
03-06-13, 08:06 PM
My wife has a 2013 SRX with the 3.6. Maybe ill get a catch can for her car and my V just to be safe. I plan to do performance mods on my V. It can only help right? Anyone know an excellent brand?

1997BlackETC
03-06-13, 08:13 PM
At least from over ten years ago when I use to own gas stations all the gas was the same, sometimes they'd bring me mobil, sometimes shell, citgo, you never knew. I'm not sure if it's still like that, but it was then.

JFJr
03-06-13, 08:14 PM
****SARCASM ALERT****

Yeah, I love that Shell gasoline. Who wouldn't want nitrogen molecules in your fuel, that way it can react with the nitrogen in the air.
Heck, nitrous is mostly nitrogen. It's like supercharging your engine with an inert gas.

Bovine gas injection should really be the ultimate mod. The acceleration should be absolutely ad rectum!!

SC2150
03-07-13, 10:35 AM
I want no part of a DI engine. Audi, BMW, Porsche, VW and others all get gunked up intake valves with DI and they just about refuse to fix it. The fix is to manually scrape it away which means it comes right back. The Audi RS4 is notorious for this problem.... Even the R8 has it. So, no thanks give me regular fuel injection.

If a proper functioning catchcan (NOT a can that lets as much oil through as it catches like most...only a couple actually catch nearly all, and the RX is the only one that traps all) is installed the life of the engine you will see no buildup like that. We have a 2010 3.6L DI running the RX system from day one brand new, at 62,000 miles nothing but a light coating on the intake valves that has not effected the shape/flow. So the solution is there for any that want it. The advantages of DI are awesome....higher CR can be run w/out detonation issues, more power & better fuel economy from a smaller displacement engine, use lower octaine fuel (I wouldnt, but you can safely and these engines are 11.3:1 CR which with a MPFI engine (multi port fuel injection) you would have to run race gas at that level..so ALL engines will be DI by 2015...Domestic V8's as well (the C7 corvette is for 2014).


Just to be clear. The V2 is not DI right? But it would be good to install a catch can anyway? And how much is the average install. Please recommend the best brands.
Correct. What the can does for the V2, or any FI engine is keep the oil ingestion from causing buildup on the blower rotors that throw them off balance and result in premature bearing failure (noisy blowers) and the residue coats and clogs the intercooler:

Look at the pics below...this is a LSA blower with 16 K miles on it running the RX can since new...there are threads here with pictures of them w/out the RX can and they look nasty:
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/RevXtreme1/RXcanonZL1blowerfor14kmiles.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/RevXtreme1/RXcanonZL1blowerfor14kmiles2.jpg

Now look at the intercooler of a Maggie blower car w/15k miles on it and no can:
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/RevXtreme1/Maggieintercoolerwithoilcontamination.jpg


Nope the V's are not direct injected, although the 3.6 liter on the regular CTS is and they don't have any problems with that set up, they did it right. I never bothered with a catch can, I think they are a waste of time and money.

Most are a waste of money. even some of the biggest names we know let as much past the can as they catch.....but getting one of the few that actually do catch all or nearly all the oil is a huge benefit...The RX can is the only can on the market that traps all noticeable oil from entering the intake air charge. The pictures above should show it at a glance. Then there is the power & fuel economy. If anything but air & fuel is in the combustion chamber the amount of usable octaine falls, the burn pattern is interupted, and the quench areas are not as effective. Put a tespoon of your motor oil in a saucer and try and light it on fire....it wont burn w/out heat and pressure....and then very incomplete. This also causes detonation that the knock sensors detect and then the PCM oulls timing (defaulting to the low octaine tables quite often) and if your engine is not running optimine timing advance there is less power produced and poorer fuel economy.

Your not alone...with 99% of all cans sold as "oil catchcans" not doing any more than catching some of the oil through condensing, most are a waste of $.


My wife has a 2013 SRX with the 3.6. Maybe ill get a catch can for her car and my V just to be safe. I plan to do performance mods on my V. It can only help right? Anyone know an excellent brand?

The RX system is the only one that catches all detectable oil due to the robust design, but there are a few others that work very well.

Saiku Micchi, Elite, AMW, ......but most are pretty poor in their function. ALL catch oil, even a beer can w/2 fittings....the key is trapping all. Take a clear glass inline fuel filter and install it between any can and the IM vac and see that filter saturate with and of the billet cans (moroso, etc.) no matter how they make claims in the promotional blurbs....test for yourself and see.

There is not a gasoline powered engine in todays cars and light trucks that wont benefit from a properly functioning can. Remember, all cans will catch oil....so thats not how to judge....it is not letting any through that is critical.


Bovine gas injection should really be the ultimate mod. The acceleration should be absolutely ad rectum!!

LOL!!! :thumbsup:

CavemanB52
03-07-13, 10:55 PM
Is this an easy install? I'm a pilot and have basic abilities when working on cars. I can change the oil or install a CAI but i dont feel comfortable getting into anything complicated. Plus can you post a link for the RX system where I can order this product?

SC2150
03-09-13, 12:05 PM
Like the guy a few years back that came in for a dyno with his new Z06......it was 20-30 HP lower than we usually see, looked at a log and it was pulling timing and had defaulted to the low octaine tables.....I asked about the fuel he uses.." I am not going to pay the outrageous price for premium"! $70k car and skimping on the fuel it needs....crazy!

The V's need the catch can as much as every other gasoline engine due to the residue gunking up the intercooler:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/RevXtreme1/Maggieintercoolerwithoilcontamination.jpg

Plus the buildup on the SC rotors throws them out of balance and results in premature bearing wear (noisey symptoms) and of course, no FI does well with any oil ingestion in the combustion chamber....detonation and less energy released per explosive event.

neuronbob
03-09-13, 04:48 PM
OK, I'm almost convinced to buy a catch can after reading this stuff.
I exclusively use Shell as after experimenting with my last V, that seemed to give me the best mileage. I only use premium (93 here, 91 in Colorado where I drive regularly).

vagondr
03-09-13, 05:04 PM
I'm sold. I don't want to drive another day without a catch can. I wish I had one prior to putting 3K miles on the car. I figured here's a simple mod I can actually do myself and perhaps it might take twenty minutes. I took off the manifold cover to see what's involved. First take off the short dirty air tube. That should be easy. Not so fast....there's not a human hand small enough to reach it. I could possibly get to it if I removed that vacuum switch right over it above the fan belts, passenger side. I found this to be the SC air bypass solenoid. Of course the hose has some fancy, high tech fastener rather than a hose clamp. Probably requires a special tool. Half of the members seem to have CCs so someone PLEASE tell me how to proceed. Do I remove the bypass switch and how does the hose release. Save me from going to a speed shop.

JFJr
03-09-13, 05:35 PM
Guys, are we jumping the gun a bit? We all love our cars and want the best performance, but we know GM engineers monitor this forum and maybe they will weigh in on the necessity for catch cans on our LSA's even though we don't have direct injection, or at least recommend procedures. GM? BTW, this is a great discussion.

Jud

neuronbob
03-09-13, 07:26 PM
Guys, are we jumping the gun a bit? We all love our cars and want the best performance, but we know GM engineers monitor this forum and maybe they will weigh in on the necessity for catch cans on our LSA's even though we don't have direct injection, or at least recommend procedures. GM? BTW, this is a great discussion.

Jud

I said "almost" convinced. :) I agree this is an excellent discussion. I think we would all be over the moon if the GM engine engineers actually responded to us with an opinion.

SC2150
03-11-13, 12:25 PM
To order, call direct and I can answer any questions. 941-721-1826

GM, Ford, Chrysler and every import manufactuer has the best engineers in the world period. The problem is each make/model/sub-model of car/light truck is built within a set budget to reach a certain demograhpic. These target price points and budget constraints do not allow the engineers to get approval for all they would like to incorporate or change for the better. If they did we would be paying $250k for the average car/light truck. Having worked closley with the industry for so many years on of the biggect complaints by engineers is they may have an extremely good idea, that may only add $1-2-10 or so (some less than a dollar!!!) only to have it shot down by accounting, marketing, legal, or upper management. Remeber, the car/light truck buying public is NOT a educated group of automotive enthusiasts but a dumbed down mass that wants to buy a car and put gas in and get from point A to point B and project the appearance they wish to....they dont want to, and dont even know how to open their hood and check oil for the most part (read how many engine failures occur due to running the car out of oil!!).

Now the hand built super cars that do cost $250-$500k plus all ado have these issues addressed...and have for ages.

We recently finished a early Maserati restoration and they have had oil separating crankcase evac systems since the late 50's early 60's.

So to assume our cars/light trucks are designed and built to the best they can be is very naieve....but it is just where the marketing brass wants the mind set.

So no, there is not a skilled engineer at any of the manufacturers that would not want to incorporate the best if allowed to....but they would be out of a job in short order if they pushed to far.

Ask any detailed questions and I will answer them, but not a single mass produced vehicle, and that includes the Corvette, GT500, Viper, etc. is released today with every system & component the best the engineers could do.

SC2150
03-11-13, 08:06 PM
Oh, and no manufacturers rep of any manufacturer can comment on any of this in public...on a forum or other media unless it is a designated spokesperson with a preapproved canned response. Just read any of the responses from the GM reps on here to help. They do a wonderful job of trying to assist, but can never give an opinon or state anything outside of their preapproved script. So dont get mad at them for not...their job is at stake. Even the "water cooler" discussions we have with engineers from the big 3 are always "off the record" and anyone valuing their job could never make any statements in public with accurate info on these subjects. 38 years of being in or around the auto makers gives some good insight into the politics of all this, but look up a retired engineer and ask "if you had an idea to make an engine better, did the brass let you implement it?" and see them chuckle.

The car manufacturers do the best they can withing the constraints put on every step of the design and production process....and what we get is the result. Far better than anything 20 years ago, but never will you have the best that could possibly be designed unless you want to go a true super car route.

:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:

Veeroom
03-12-13, 10:17 PM
I use to work for "Big Oil", there is a difference. I tell family and friends if you trade a vehicle every few years just buy what ever is cheapest, but if you hold on to your ride for a long time and are concerned about quality buy Top Tier gas. I prefer QT!!!!

SC2150
07-02-13, 08:33 PM
I use to work for "Big Oil", there is a difference. I tell family and friends if you trade a vehicle every few years just buy what ever is cheapest, but if you hold on to your ride for a long time and are concerned about quality buy Top Tier gas. I prefer QT!!!!

Agreed (as far as port injection cars/trucks) DI there is nothing to be gained as no fuel passes the intake valves, and the injectors build no deposits as the fuel is passing through between 2,000-3,000 PSI. But a port injected vehicle, huge difference. We live near the Port of Manatee and all the fuel tankers fill from the same bulk, but add the additives then so there is a definite advantage to using shell or one of the others if used in a port injection engine where the fuel passes the intake valves.

:thumbsup: