: Prices Added to ATS Configurator



Chuck C
07-24-12, 10:39 AM
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but prices have been added to the ATS Configurator at cadillac.com. This car seems outrageously expensive. I hope GM offers some good incentives.

Chuck

link added:

http://www.cadillac.com/ats-luxury-sport-sedan/build-your-own.html?

Cuest
07-24-12, 12:20 PM
Expensive compared to what?

C&C
07-24-12, 12:24 PM
I wouldn't say "outrageously" but it isn't cheap. Keep in mind that this is a top of the line competitors to the leaders in the segment (and arguably superior to most). If you want the good stuff, it going to cost you.

Thanks for the update on the pricing for 'Build your own'; (I guess that was the reason that Build your own was absent for the last couple of days).

Chuck C
07-24-12, 12:58 PM
Perhaps "outrageously" was a bit too strong. Compared to an Infiniti G37x, the ATS seems expensive: G37x starts at $38,000 while the 3.6L Luxury AWD starts at $44,090. Then again, the G is a relative bargain.

At closer inspection, the ATS msrp across the trims is very much in line with the IS, C-Class and 3 series, and A4. Still, I guess I have a little bit of sticker shock considering that the ATS tops out at $55K while the CTS tops out at $58K.

Chuck

blackonblackNYC
07-24-12, 01:01 PM
Fully loaded this thing comes in at only 2K less than a similarly packaged 2012 CTS (50K vs 52K). The ATS should've topped out at 45K. All the reviews confirm that it's not as good a 3-series, good car but not there. The strategy was stupid. The car's interior is too small to be practical, and no turbo V6...why pay 50K for a loaded version? If the car is going to be a tad slower anyway...why not provide some extra rear leg room???

I bought my CTS not caring at all how it stacked up against the E/C class or 3/5 series. The reviews said at that time it was "the best American sedan ever made", that and precisely because it was in between the German rivals in terms of size is why I bought the car. I'm in my mid-thirties now, so I'm the target demo for the ATS...and Cadillac is forcing to BMW or to wait on the 2014 Infinit G, purely out of spite...and I've never owned a foreign car.

I don't want a compact car and I don't want my CTS to get bigger. Urggh!!!

The Tony Show
07-24-12, 01:31 PM
Fully loaded this thing comes in at only 2K less than a similarly packaged 2012 CTS (50K vs 52K). The ATS should've topped out at 45K. All the reviews confirm that it's not as good a 3-series, good car but not there. The strategy was stupid. The car's interior is too small to be practical, and no turbo V6...why pay 50K for a loaded version? If the car is going to be a tad slower anyway...why not provide some extra rear leg room???

Fully loaded, it has a lot more equipment than a CTS and more high end chassis and braking components. Apples and oranges. Leg room is also greater than it's main competitor, the 3 series.


I bought my CTS not caring at all how it stacked up against the E/C class or 3/5 series. The reviews said at that time it was "the best American sedan ever made", that and precisely because it was in between the German rivals in terms of size is why I bought the car. I'm in my mid-thirties now, so I'm the target demo for the ATS...and Cadillac is forcing to BMW or to wait on the 2014 Infinit G, purely out of spite...and I've never owned a foreign car.

I don't want a compact car and I don't want my CTS to get bigger. Urggh!!!

So wait for the larger, more impressive 2014 CTS. It'll be roomier and have all the new technology from the ATS.

investor74
07-24-12, 02:23 PM
Perhaps "outrageously" was a bit too strong. Compared to an Infiniti G37x, the ATS seems expensive: G37x starts at $38,000 while the 3.6L Luxury AWD starts at $44,090. Then again, the G is a relative bargain.

At closer inspection, the ATS msrp across the trims is very much in line with the IS, C-Class and 3 series, and A4. Still, I guess I have a little bit of sticker shock considering that the ATS tops out at $55K while the CTS tops out at $58K.

Chuck

Right now, the configurator allows you to price the top ATS around $52k. You only get to 55k if you include the Driver Assist Package (code Y66) which retails for $3200 but is not yet reflected on the Cadillac Website. It is currently an interim availability option on the XTS and may be that way on ATS as well. There is nothing remotely comparable on the CTS, so the spread is more like 52K vs 58K.

blackonblackNYC
07-24-12, 02:24 PM
The new CTS is going to be longer than my '09...I don't want a bigger car. As far as apples to oranges...not quite, upgrades with the time shouldn't cost more...and so I'll be paying 60K for a non-V CTS in 2014???? Also, the ATS doesn't have more rear legroom than the 3 series, at least not on paper.

Unless this car blows me away I'm still going to feel betrayed by this brand, because the market research folks talked to German car buyers to build this car, not to those of us who supported this company when it went bankrupt - that's what I resent. I want a bad ass Caddy, with some muscle, chrome and legroom...with a little value.

Brooks2
07-24-12, 02:33 PM
Using the configurator, I can get a price but where can I get the code numbers and item description of the options ??

The Tony Show
07-24-12, 03:06 PM
As far as apples to oranges...not quite, upgrades with the time shouldn't cost more...and so I'll be paying 60K for a non-V CTS in 2014????

My point was that many brands have overlapping price points in their vehicles. It's not unheard of, because the two vehicles have different purposes and target audiences, and there's no law that says each model's price must end where the next one begins. I can build a 328i Sport Line with Tech package, Nav and Cold Weather package that has an MSRP higher than a 535i.

Chances are you will be paying closer to $60k for the 2014 CTS, as it's going to get more technology and equipment as it moves out of the "entry" position in Cadillac's lineup. By that time, Cadillac will have had the XTS and ATS on the road for over a year, hopefully beginning to turn the heads of import buyers accustomed to the price structure of the German makes.

A lot of longtime Cadillac people are going to freak out at a $60k CTS, but in reality the 2014 is going to be a CTS in name only- the ATS is now what the CTS used to be, while the CTS is becoming something else larger and more advanced.


Unless this car blows me away I'm still going to feel betrayed by this brand, because the market research folks talked to German car buyers to build this car, not to those of us who supported this company when it went bankrupt - that's what I resent. I want a bad ass Caddy, with some muscle, chrome and legroom...with a little value.

ATS: Small and sporty, with room for 4 but tight in the back. 80% sport/20% Luxury
CTS: Mid size and sporty, room for 4 including the back. 60% sport/40% Luxury
XTS: Large and luxurious, room for 5 and a cavernous trunk. 30% sport/70% Luxury

Lots of choices there for everyone- just depends on your priorities.

blackonblackNYC
07-24-12, 03:46 PM
A lot of longtime Cadillac people are going to freak out at a $60k CTS, but in reality the 2014 is going to be a CTS in name only- the ATS is now what the CTS used to be, while the CTS is becoming something else larger and more advanced

You made my point right here...they're getting rid of the CTS, a car that was called "the best American sedan ever made" just a few years ago, and I believe it's going to backfire. That car appealed to a new demo beyond "longtime Cadillac people"...I was 31 when I bought my CTS.

The Tony Show
07-24-12, 07:04 PM
So when the '14 comes out, get one without all the whiz bang options and it'll probably be close in price to the current CTS and nearly the same size. The current CTS is 192" long, while the XTS is 202". Educated guess tells me the new CTS won't grow more than an inch or two, all in the back seat.

At least wait to see what they do with the '14 before you freak out.

ladypro
07-24-12, 07:29 PM
after configuring it was 55k i'm thinking 2012 srx is a better deal alot more options for the coin and the 2013 will be overpriced if they charge extra for safety options. i like all the bells and whistles then i think my 1st house did not cost this much where do you draw the line. i need a reality check
i need a new car the car wins!

CaddyFanFL
07-24-12, 08:08 PM
Hmm, at $55K, the ATS is more than the fully loaded 2013 Lincoln MKZ. I don't know exactly why...

2004ctsv
07-24-12, 10:04 PM
Perhaps "outrageously" was a bit too strong. Compared to an Infiniti G37x, the ATS seems expensive: G37x starts at $38,000 while the 3.6L Luxury AWD starts at $44,090. Then again, the G is a relative bargain.

At closer inspection, the ATS msrp across the trims is very much in line with the IS, C-Class and 3 series, and A4. Still, I guess I have a little bit of sticker shock considering that the ATS tops out at $55K while the CTS tops out at $58K.

Chuck

As an owner of a G35, these cars are the luxury bargain of the decade. Dollar for dollar, nothing competes with it.
But I expect that a new ATS will have a more sophisticated ride than the Infiniti's.
To those worried about price, compare apples to apples and ATS to 3 Series. Things don't look so bleak then.
I used the Cadillac and BMW website tools and the 3.6 AWD was $48k and the 335 xDrive was $52k (iirc). Both were MSRP and there will probably be wiggle room with the 335.
The ATS price doesn't seem out of line.

C&C
07-25-12, 06:16 AM
Hmm, at $55K, the ATS is more than the fully loaded 2013 Lincoln MKZ. I don't know exactly why...
Because now your comparing apples to kumquats; Lincoln isn't 'there' yet.

C&C
07-25-12, 06:17 AM
Hmm, at $55K, the ATS is more than the fully loaded 2013 Lincoln MKZ. I don't know exactly why...
Because now your comparing apples to kumquats; Lincoln isn't 'there' yet.

The Tony Show
07-25-12, 11:26 AM
:yeah:

The MKZ is a tarted up FWD Ford Fusion. Nice car for a grocery getter with a comfy interior, but not even in the same league as cars like the ATS, 335i and E350.

concorso
07-25-12, 01:33 PM
Isnt the MKZ more of a competitor to the Lexus ES and the XTS?

CaddyFanFL
07-25-12, 06:42 PM
Because now your comparing apples to kumquats; Lincoln isn't 'there' yet.

So let's compare "Apples to Apples" then. For $55K, I can get a fully loaded CTS and a very well equipped XTS with all the options the ATS has - and even more. I don't see any reason why the ATS should be as expensive as the XTS.

IMO, the ATS is a bit too expensive compared to other Caddys. The 2014 CTS will be the sweet spot. Maybe $2-3K more than the ATS - but much better equipped.

CaddyFanFL
07-25-12, 06:45 PM
:yeah:

The MKZ is a tarted up FWD Ford Fusion.

That's just BS - and you know it..:histeric:

The Tony Show
07-25-12, 08:05 PM
That's just BS - and you know it..:histeric:

I can't tell if you're serious or not. :shifty

The MKZ has always been more than kissing cousins with the Fusion, sharing everything from the length, width, height, FWD powertrains, chassis, wheelbase, interior switchgear, track, and more.

CaddyFanFL
07-25-12, 08:34 PM
I can't tell if you're serious or not. :shifty

The MKZ has always been more than kissing cousins with the Fusion, sharing everything from the length, width, height, FWD powertrains, chassis, wheelbase, interior switchgear, track, and more.

Yes, HAS BEEN.

I'm, however, talking about MY 2013.

The Tony Show
07-25-12, 09:10 PM
2013 brings a new MKZ and new Fusion. Coincidence? No. They'll still be on the same FWD platform, and the Lincoln will have a softer suspension and more toys on the inside. Not even close to an ATS competitor.

CaddyFanFL
07-25-12, 09:30 PM
2013 brings a new MKZ and new Fusion. Coincidence? No. They'll still be on the same FWD platform, and the Lincoln will have a softer suspension and more toys on the inside. Not even close to an ATS competitor.

Well, you claimed before that they would be sharing "everything". I don't see that - especially no V6 on the Fusion.

I still don't see a reason why an ATS should cost as much as a CTS or an XTS. It is a small car with limited features and options. Just bumping up the price-level to match that of a 3-series but ignoring the fact that you can get an XTS for the same amount of money is going to cause some problems. I certainly don't see a reason why a small sport-sedan should cost as much as a better equipped luxury-sedan (XTS).

BMW or Mercedes aren't selling their 3- or C-series at 5- or E-series prices, either..

marktanner
07-25-12, 09:33 PM
The ATS is a compact sport sedan which is aimed at the BMW 3 series. That's pretty obvious. They used the previous editions as their benchmarks, as the current F30 was not available until recently, and size-wise, it's very close to the previous 3 series in interior room, which didn't seem to hurt that car's sales at all.

I had a chance to sit in a 3.6 Premium at Atlantic Station this past weekend, including with the engine running. It was Black Diamond, with the Black leather/aluminum trim, and it had the cold weather package. MSRP on that car should be about $49k, including $1000 for the paint. While that seems like a lot, I priced against a BMW 335 Sport, similarly equipped, and that car would be about $55k. The M Sport might be more equivalent, due to it's adjustable suspension, but I didn't price that yet, and that would cost even more. Bear in mind that the premium is quite loaded; to be fair, though, we should add $1000 for the sunroof that is standard on the BMW, which makes it approximately $5k more expensive, comparably equipped. The equipment is not exactly comparable, but pretty close.

So far, all of the initial tests have shown the ATS to be at least as good overall as the BMW. There have been no direct comparison tests, though I am sure they will be happening quite soon. Driving impressions show great handling and brakes with a firm but smooth ride, and good acceleration. Steering feel has been praised, and may be better than the BMW, which has been criticized for being somewhat numb. Only a back to back test will reveal the truth, however. The brakes have been widely praised, and that is another BMW weakness, as they are prone to fade, even on the M cars. The BMWs are probably a bit quicker, due to the 8-speed transmission, which I have read is coming in the ATS, but not yet available. Perhaps the closest match will be between the 2 liter turbo sticks; the ATS is rated as more powerful, but many think the BMW is way under-rated. The BMW gets great mileage, thogh the stop/start feature has been widely criticized as rough and jerky, and many will turn it off because of that. The BMW 4 has also been criticized for it's uninspiring soundtrack, while the ATS reportedly sounds great. The 3.6 may not be quite as quick as the 335, due to the relative lack of low-end torque compared to the 335, but it should be lighter, and takes regular gas, compared to all of the BMWs.

Styling-wise, I prefer the BMW and the CTS, though the ATS is handsome enough that it would not deter me from a purchase. THe interior of the ATS is quite a bit nicer than the 3 series, and more comfortable, though just slightly less roomy. The BMW is now possibly the roomiest car in it's class, and definitely roomier than previous editions. When I sat in the F30, the car was notably roomier than before, but I didn't find any of the seats to be particularly comfortable. The interior styling was an improvement overall, but not great by any means, and build quality wasn't all that great, either (the 3 was never really meant as a luxury car). As to the ATS, after I adjusted the front seat properly, I entered the back seat, and was pleasantly surprised by the room! I really expected less. Now, I'm 5'9", so I'm sure with the seat all the way back it would be tight, but that's true for every car in the class. Moreover, there was adequate headroom( a bit better than the CTS), and good foot room under the seat. There was also more foot clearance in the rear door than the CTS. Comfort, both front and rear, was great, and quite surprising. The front Sport Seats were very comfortable, and the side bolsters could be felt, though I can't tell how well they would work on the track yet; I suspect not nearly as well as the Recaros in my CTS-V. The rears were also very comfortable, especially sitting behind my seating position, and these seats were much more supportive than the rear seats of the F30. The interior was very attractive and well built, though not quite as plush as the CTS. For instance, the CTS dash and door tops are padded as well as sewn, whereas the ATS is just hand sewn. The trim in the ATS is way better than the CTS, however.

The car does have a high price, but a less well equipped model would be substantially cheaper. The premium model has some equipment that more corresponds to the CTS-V, like the MagnaRide, Brembos and forged wheels, and then all the extra tech items such as CUE, front parking sensors, and the fancy safety equipment that's not yet available on the CTS. Comparable CTS models usually cost about the same as a 3 series, so a comparable ATS should really be about $5000 cheaper than a CTS, too.

I anxiously await the arrival of the ATS, especially the stick turbo. If it drives as well as or better than the BMW, I might even consider it to replace my CTS-V. I wouldn't mind a smaller car for the city with better gas mileage, as long as the handling, steering, and brakes are good, and if it's decently quick and fun to drive.

CaddyFanFL
07-25-12, 10:04 PM
Just to be perfectly clear: I think the ATS is a great car and it was on my list as well - it might still be because I don't know as of today what the 2014 CTS is going to deliver. Even when I used the configurator and came up with the relatively high price, I also said to myself "well, at BMW, you wouldn't pay less, either - and the rebates/incentives on the ATS are probably higher, too."

Then - just for fun, I decided to build an XTS Premium AWD - and found out that it was just about the same price. I couldn't believe it. I mean, the XTS Premium is certainly well equipped...

So I decided to wait for the new CTS. that will probably deliver the best of both worlds.

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 12:27 AM
Fully loaded this thing comes in at only 2K less than a similarly packaged 2012 CTS (50K vs 52K). The ATS should've topped out at 45K. All the reviews confirm that it's not as good a 3-series, good car but not there. The strategy was stupid. The car's interior is too small to be practical, and no turbo V6...why pay 50K for a loaded version? If the car is going to be a tad slower anyway...why not provide some extra rear leg room???

I bought my CTS not caring at all how it stacked up against the E/C class or 3/5 series. The reviews said at that time it was "the best American sedan ever made", that and precisely because it was in between the German rivals in terms of size is why I bought the car. I'm in my mid-thirties now, so I'm the target demo for the ATS...and Cadillac is forcing to BMW or to wait on the 2014 Infinit G, purely out of spite...and I've never owned a foreign car.

I don't want a compact car and I don't want my CTS to get bigger. Urggh!!!All the reviews? All the reviews I'm reading say they think it may be on par with the 3 series. Nothing is set until a comparison is set up.

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 12:30 AM
The new CTS is going to be longer than my '09...I don't want a bigger car. As far as apples to oranges...not quite, upgrades with the time shouldn't cost more...and so I'll be paying 60K for a non-V CTS in 2014???? Also, the ATS doesn't have more rear legroom than the 3 series, at least not on paper.

Unless this car blows me away I'm still going to feel betrayed by this brand, because the market research folks talked to German car buyers to build this car, not to those of us who supported this company when it went bankrupt - that's what I resent. I want a bad ass Caddy, with some muscle, chrome and legroom...with a little value.What are you smoking? From day 1, Cadillac couldn't release 2 great sedans. From early on, the CTS has continued to grow with the plan of a true entry level sized car.

I've owned an '04 and '09 V. Neither are cavernous. The ATS won't be drastically smaller while the new CTS should be lighter, and thus, more "bad ass" with better room.

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 12:33 AM
Hmm, at $55K, the ATS is more than the fully loaded 2013 Lincoln MKZ. I don't know exactly why...Is a fully loaded Regal GS more than a 2013 MKZ? Because you pay less for a gussied up Fusion. Your post shows how uninformed you are on this car...

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 12:37 AM
Well, you claimed before that they would be sharing "everything". I don't see that - especially no V6 on the Fusion.

I still don't see a reason why an ATS should cost as much as a CTS or an XTS. It is a small car with limited features and options. Just bumping up the price-level to match that of a 3-series but ignoring the fact that you can get an XTS for the same amount of money is going to cause some problems. I certainly don't see a reason why a small sport-sedan should cost as much as a better equipped luxury-sedan (XTS).

BMW or Mercedes aren't selling their 3- or C-series at 5- or E-series prices, either..So I guess you just get in a car and ride it? Why not compare the options list between an Escalade Platinum and a CTS-V? The XTS is on a LaCrosse platform. If you think the ATS will drive anything like it, go buy a Lexus and continue to never know what a driver's car is...

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 12:42 AM
Just to be perfectly clear: I think the ATS is a great car and it was on my list as well - it might still be because I don't know as of today what the 2014 CTS is going to deliver. Even when I used the configurator and came up with the relatively high price, I also said to myself "well, at BMW, you wouldn't pay less, either - and the rebates/incentives on the ATS are probably higher, too."

Then - just for fun, I decided to build an XTS Premium AWD - and found out that it was just about the same price. I couldn't believe it. I mean, the XTS Premium is certainly well equipped...

So I decided to wait for the new CTS. that will probably deliver the best of both worlds.The days of the undercutting competitors by a huge margin are gone.

Cadillac's renaissance started with the '03 CTS. It was targeted to steal sales from the Germans midsize and entry levels...for an entry level price. Then, many improvements were made with the '08.

Now that Cadillac has made dents in the market, bringing in a true entry level, 3 series fighter with a larger CTS it's time to price accordingly.

The ATS is a no compromise car. That's why it's priced higher. The new CTS will be an evolution of the Gen2. Without compromise, it will also be priced higher. If you think the 2014 CTS will be priced the same as the current one, dream on.

It's also why when they come out with the Omega chassised car, it will be well above DTS and current XTS pricing.

concorso
07-26-12, 10:20 AM
I dont understand why this is so difficult to understand. ;) The reason BMW and Mercedes dont have this pricing problem is due to those brands having 3 properly spec'd and defined levels of car. The reason the CTS and ATS are so close in price is due to the CTS being a straddler at present, great car, but underspec'd compared to regular 5-series. The ATS looks to be a dead-on competitor to the 3. It demands a higher price. Just for fun, add Brembos/MRC/and CUE and a few other options to a package, and watch the price of the CTS jump 7-10k.

The Tony Show
07-26-12, 11:48 AM
Thank you- someone gets it. A loaded ATS has WAY more than a loaded CTS.

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 01:13 PM
Thank you- someone gets it. A loaded ATS has WAY more than a loaded CTS.

More than a CTS? Maybe. More than a loaded XTS? Nope.

Magnetic Ride Control? Not available on the ATS AWD. The XTS AWD, however, has it. Brembo Brakes? XTS has it, too.

At the same price, the ATS lacks: 14-Speaker Bose-system, ventilated seats, heated rear-seats, the "real" CUE, 3-zone A/C, sunshades, power steering-column and electric glovebox door.

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 01:38 PM
So I guess you just get in a car and ride it? Why not compare the options list between an Escalade Platinum and a CTS-V? The XTS is on a LaCrosse platform. If you think the ATS will drive anything like it, go buy a Lexus and continue to never know what a driver's car is...

I owned a 2006 BMW M5 in the past - so I guess I know what a "driver's car" is. However, BMW never went crazy on their pricing WITHIN THE BRAND. $55K on the ATS would be appropriate for the V-series - but not for the standard V6 (unless Cadillac would adjust their prices within the brand). And neither BMW, Mercedes nor Audi price their 3-series, C-Class or A4 at a level that you can get a better equipped 5-series, E-Class or A6 for the same amount of money (UNLESS we are talking about M, AMG or S). And I'm talking about the comparison between the ATS and XTS. The XTS is not an old car that will be replaced any time soon like the CTS - so that argument doesn't fly.

What makes things worse is that the XTS is Caddy's entry into the luxury-segment. Right now, it's their biggest sedan. At a size of more than 200", you can almost make the case that it is Cadillac's 7-series, S-Class or A8. Now, imagine a 3-series at a price of a better equipped 7-series. Or a C-Class priced like the S-Class. Rather funny...

You see, I needn't look at the prices of the European competition. There is something wrong within the brand itself. And once the new CTS launches, I certainly expect a higher price than the current one. But IMO, Cadillac doesn't have much room on that one. The CTS will be smaller than the XTS so an equally equipped CTS mustn't cost more than the XTS. The V-series, of course, is on a different level.

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 01:57 PM
Is a fully loaded Regal GS more than a 2013 MKZ? Because you pay less for a gussied up Fusion. Your post shows how uninformed you are on this car...

An individual who thinks it's smart to price an entry sports sedan as high as the brand's luxury sedan shouldn't judge others in the first place.

I can already smell the high incentives they have to give on this car once the new car excitement has worn off.

The Tony Show
07-26-12, 03:35 PM
The CTS will be smaller than the XTS so an equally equipped CTS mustn't cost more than the XTS. The V-series, of course, is on a different level.

A Z4 Sdrive35i can get up to $65,000, but you don't hear people moaning that it should be less than a 535i because "it's smaller". Size has nothing to do with it, but rather cost to build. That cost can go into luxury, performance, or a mix of the two. Sometimes the exotic materials that go into a proper small car can take the price up near or equal to larger vehicles.

Cadillac's technology has moved so fast, the V isn't really on "another level" anymore. Outside of the supercharged truck engine (and that's what it is), everything that makes the CTS-V special is on the ATS- Magnetic ride, Brembos, leather wrapped dash, sport seats, etc. The ATS trumps even the V with its CUE system (compared to the now outdated Nav in the CTS-V), heads up display and more.

Comparing the ATS to the XTS based on price is folly. One is a purpose built RWD sports sedan on a clean sheet chassis with extensive weight saving measures through expensive materials, while the other is a FWD luxury cruiser built off an existing GM platform whose R&D costs have already been recouped by other models.

As Jim pointed out, just because the CTS-V and the Escalade are both $75,000 doesn't mean one is better or one is priced wrong. ATS and XTS are polar opposites that happen to have overlapping price points if you equip each one in a certain way. Plenty of other brands have overlapping price points inside their own line simply because that's how much it costs to build the cars- it's not like they just pull these MSRPs out of a hat, you know.

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 04:12 PM
A Z4 Sdrive35i can get up to $65,000, but you don't hear people moaning that it should be less than a 535i because "it's smaller". Size has nothing to do with it, but rather cost to build.

On the Z4, it's not just cost to build. It's rather the cost to build divided by the low volume of this car. Now IF Cadillac is planning on selling less of the ATS compared to the XTS, I'm with you - but if they want this car to be a success, I'm guessing they want to sell quite a few of it.



Sometimes the exotic materials that go into a proper small car can take the price up near or equal to larger vehicles.

And what materials would that be on the ATS?



Comparing the ATS to the XTS based on price is folly. One is a purpose built RWD sports sedan on a clean sheet chassis with extensive weight saving measures through expensive materials, while the other is a FWD luxury cruiser built off an existing GM platform whose R&D costs have already been recouped by other models.

So on the ATS, I need to pay for the development while others already did that for me on the XTS? I guess that answers the question which car has the better value. And BTW, that's what I'm talking about the whole time.

The Tony Show
07-26-12, 04:35 PM
Okay then, how about the Miata? Mazda sells a metric ton of those, yet it still costs more than the larger and fancier Mazda3. Reason? Lightweight materials cost money, especially when they're custom made for a specific car.

Look, we can go round and round all day. ATS will be offered in a Turbo Manual for under $40k, a tremendous value in its class. If you don't find value in a RWD car that's lighter and more powerful than the 3 series with AVAILABLE (key word) luxury items like CUE and HUD, then by all means buy an XTS. Value is a relative term, and if you feel like the bigger trunk, softer ride and fancier interior justify a $55k sticker more than 3400lbs, magnesium paddle shifters and an all new world class chassis with magnesium and structural adhesives, then ATS isn't your car.

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 06:12 PM
It's not that I don't like the ATS - just check out the initial reaction of some other users on page 1 of this thread. One user stated that the ATS should've topped out at 45K. I'd even OK a fully loaded one at $50K but $55K?..:helpless:

ddawson
07-26-12, 07:24 PM
Is the ATS coming with the IPad like the XTS/

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 07:54 PM
It's not that I don't like the ATS - just check out the initial reaction of some other users on page 1 of this thread. One user stated that the ATS should've topped out at 45K. I'd even OK a fully loaded one at $50K but $55K?..:helpless:

Because you're used to cost cutting. This car looks to be as good, or better than, the C class/3 series.

Sorry you don't understand what it takes to actually build a car. The XTS is on an affordable LaCrosse platform that has been out for years. That's why you can pack it full of gadgets for that price.

But, hey, you've owned a 2006 M5 so you "know" what a driver's car is. lol

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 08:03 PM
Besides, a 3 series is not entry level. It has prestige as THE sports sedan. People don't cross shop it with the 5 and 7s.

No one is going to cross shop an ATS and XTS.

investor74
07-26-12, 08:11 PM
It's not that I don't like the ATS - just check out the initial reaction of some other users on page 1 of this thread. One user stated that the ATS should've topped out at 45K. I'd even OK a fully loaded one at $50K but $55K?..:helpless:

Having trouble understanding the logic here. If ATS did not offer the Driver Assistance Package, for example, it would top out at $52K, not $55K, so that is better, right? The ATS should offer fewer options so that the fully loaded price is lower?

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 08:17 PM
Having trouble understanding the logic here. If ATS did not offer the Driver Assistance Package, for example, it would top out at $52K, not $55K, so that is better, right? The ATS should offer fewer options so that the fully loaded price is lower?

No, it should top out at $50K WITH these options.

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 08:24 PM
Because you're used to cost cutting. (...)

But, hey, you've owned a 2006 M5 so you "know" what a driver's car is. lol

Do I hear a little frustration here since you're getting personal?:histeric:

And the claim that the ATS is BETTER than the 3-series is quite optimistic. So far, the ATS is considered a car ALMOST as good as the 3-series at ALMOST the same price. So what?

CaddyFanFL
07-26-12, 08:35 PM
Besides, a 3 series is not entry level. It has prestige as THE sports sedan. People don't cross shop it with the 5 and 7s.

So according to that logic, they could charge the same for a 335i, a 550i and a 760i? After all, the 3-series is THE sports sedan, the 5-series the business-car and the 7-series the luxury-model. So no cross-shopping means it doesn't matter what price-relation they have to each other. This certainly is interesting. I wonder why neither BMW, Mercedes nor Audi have introduced a "one price fits it all"-strategy...

What Cadillac did is simply unique. If you disagree, please name a manufacturer that offers two non-performance sedans (and the ATS and XTS are just that) at the same price where the BIGGER one with MORE options/features costs as much as the significantly smaller one. Mercedes doesn't, BMW doesn't and Audi doesn't.

The Tony Show
07-26-12, 09:58 PM
The fact that you just called the ATS a "non-performance sedan" shows your lack of understanding of what this car is.

The ATS starts at $33k. The XTS starts at $47k. A loaded 2wd ATS is a touch over $50k. A loaded 2wd XTS is $60k. How you fail to grasp this is beyond me.

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 10:29 PM
The ATS is a "non-performance" sedan? No, I'm not frustrated. I'm just amazed that someone who has internet access lives under a rock...

blkcaddy
07-26-12, 11:52 PM
The 3 series will still out perform the ats at least the first generation. The ats will only get better and better with time and engineering! It's a beautiful car which gets expensive real fast if you want decent options! To say its nicer than a 2012 Mercedes C class I'm not sure about that! The c class at 35,000 comes with better standard options. They don't skimp the way gm does and always has! Cadillac should of kept the exterior the same across the board like Mercedes does! You shouldn't have to pay an extra 10,000 for the performance edition to get the lower LEDs and metal insert! That just does not make sense! Mercedes lower LEDs are standard. The Cadillac does not look as nice without them but not worth 10k in packages upgrades to get them! The c has many more years of engineering than the ats first generation! Don't believe me....go down to your local Mercedes and test drive one! You can tell they thought about everything and did not skimp on a single thing! They aren't afraid to go above and beyond what the consumer expects! The Cadillac is not built as good as a mercedes....it just isn't and never will be! I speak from experience and I own and love my Cadillac! The 2012 Mercedes C with the exterior refresh and the interior redesign is absolutely stunning!

DG2
07-27-12, 09:58 AM
Cadillac is setting up the ATS,CTS and XTS in exactly the same structure as BMW Mercedes Benz and Audi. It makes sense and look at how well it worked for the German brands. Smart move

Chuck C
07-27-12, 05:30 PM
I'm not sure if this has also been mentioned, but GM is taking steps to develop a rear-wheel based 7 series/LS/S-Class fighter. See articles below:

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2012/7/26/GM-Approves-Cadillac-Flagship-Sedan-7709958/

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/06/gm-trademarks-cadillac-lts/

The XTS is a short term solution to the void left by the STS and DTS (or so some have claimed).

Chuck

concorso
07-27-12, 07:42 PM
No, it should top out at $50K WITH these options.Thats accountant speak. The same type of words that got Cadillac in trouble in the 1st place. Designing a car to meet a price. Offer the options and charge accordingly. People keep saying that Cadillacs should be a little cheaper because people dont have faith that Cadillac can get the customers. Again, its very simple. Offer the product and people will buy it. Under charge and the brand will die. Neuter the product and people will continue to shop German.

concorso
07-27-12, 07:44 PM
The Cadillac is not built as good as a mercedes....it just isn't and never will be!Seriously, why are you still here?

The Tony Show
07-27-12, 09:09 PM
Cadillac is not built as good as a mercedes....it just isn't and never will be!

That must be why Cadillac is 4th in the world for initial quality and Mercedes is...9th?

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/29907/jd-power-2012-initial-quality-study-iqs-lexus-tops-chart

DG2
07-27-12, 10:10 PM
9th and sinking ...

JimmyH
07-28-12, 04:46 PM
To those picking on the MKZ; I have flogged an early Ford Fusion, and for a front-driver, it handles, very, very well. Aside from the styling, I don't understand why it is getting picked on. On public roads, the handling difference between an MKZ and a CTS will be negligible.

As for pricing, I think ALL cars are getting outrageously expensive. If the ATS is going to push over $50k, that's too much for me.

'12CTSman
07-28-12, 04:51 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but prices have been added to the ATS Configurator at cadillac.com. This car seems outrageously expensive. I hope GM offers some good incentives.

Chuck

link added:

http://www.cadillac.com/ats-luxury-sport-sedan/build-your-own.html? Ditto on the ATS prices, but just wait until the 3rd Gen CTS comes out for some really outrageous prices. GM may be near bankruptcy again if the economy does not improve, which seems like a given regardless of who occupies the Casa Blanca on 20 January, but I do know who will not bail GM out next time.

JimmyH
07-28-12, 05:01 PM
If someone happens to pick up a 2.0T standard with the tremec, and you decide you don't like it, please PM me. I will take it off your hands :D

thebigjimsho
07-29-12, 12:36 AM
To those picking on the MKZ; I have flogged an early Ford Fusion, and for a front-driver, it handles, very, very well. Aside from the styling, I don't understand why it is getting picked on. On public roads, the handling difference between an MKZ and a CTS will be negligible.

As for pricing, I think ALL cars are getting outrageously expensive. If the ATS is going to push over $50k, that's too much for me.I've driven both. I think you're understating the difference...

thebigjimsho
07-29-12, 04:41 AM
As for price, I spec'd mine out pretty much fully loaded for $47G. Since I want a RWD w/ manual trans, I have to forego the driver assist package. Maybe that will change later, but I like that price for the car...

AtlantaGuy00
07-29-12, 11:54 AM
Actually I do a lot of rural interstate driving so I DON'T want the driver assist package. I don't need my car beeping or shaking the seat every time I change lanes without signaling. The basic parking assist is plenty.

ddawson
07-29-12, 12:19 PM
I believe both packages include the "Safety Alert Seat".

AtlantaGuy00
07-29-12, 03:50 PM
For parking it's fine, but me personally I don't need a lane departure system. That thing would be beeping (if it beeps) and shaking all the time. I'm definately looking for one without that feature.

CaddyFanFL
07-29-12, 08:11 PM
The fact that you just called the ATS a "non-performance sedan" shows your lack of understanding of what this car is.

To me, it's NOT a "performance sedan". An ATS-V, C-Class AMG or M3 are performance-sedans. Cars in this category usually cost the same as their bigger "brothers".

CaddyFanFL
07-29-12, 08:12 PM
If the ATS is going to push over $50k, that's too much for me.

So it seems that others do in fact share my opinion..

JimmyH
07-29-12, 09:51 PM
So it seems that others do in fact share my opinion..

Maybe. But I think ALL cars in this class are overpriced.

DG2
07-29-12, 09:57 PM
Hey, a loaded Honda Accord is over $30k !! That kinda puts pricing into perceptive.

thebigjimsho
07-29-12, 10:25 PM
To me, it's NOT a "performance sedan". An ATS-V, C-Class AMG or M3 are performance-sedans. Cars in this category usually cost the same as their bigger "brothers".The only difference between all those cars and the lesser power models are drivetrains and maybe some shock dampening. The bones such as the chassis(I hope you know what that is) and suspension are what dictates how they handle and then you add power from there. If the setup is garbage, it will be a poor handling car, no matter the power.

I would say go drive an ATS and XTS back to back, but maybe you wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. Some people are just made to go from point A to B and treat their vehicles as appliances. I'm guessing that may be you...

Cadillac Tony
07-29-12, 10:44 PM
For parking it's fine, but me personally I don't need a lane departure system. That thing would be beeping (if it beeps) and shaking all the time. I'm definately looking for one without that feature.

Actually, lane departure only activates if the wheel isn't turned- your signal has nothing to do with it.

If your wheel is straight and the car drifts out of lane, it alerts you. If the lane change is intentional, nothing happens.

CaddyFanFL
07-30-12, 12:54 AM
The only difference between all those cars and the lesser power models are drivetrains and maybe some shock dampening. The bones such as the chassis(I hope you know what that is) and suspension are what dictates how they handle and then you add power from there. If the setup is garbage, it will be a poor handling car, no matter the power.

I might be a bit biased because I owned one of these tuned up vehicles before. An M5 is without a doubt a performance sedan. So is an E63 or RS6. But their regular counterparts? Probably only the V8s.

But that is probably a matter of personal taste. However, my previous claim that no other manufacturer is pricing their smaller sedan at the same level as an equally equipped bigger model is still out there and so far, has not been challenged.



I would say go drive an ATS and XTS back to back, but maybe you wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. Some people are just made to go from point A to B and treat their vehicles as appliances. I'm guessing that may be you...

I think I would know the difference. My M5 certainly drove different than the 760Li I owned so I know what you're trying to tell. While the V12 wasn't a slow box either, it handled like a truck compared to the M5.

I pointed out before that my criticism is not aimed at the ATS itself and that I'm actually convinced that it will probably be the best car Cadillac has built over the last decade. I just wanted to point out that the pricing philosophy is - let me put it this way - certainly not without a risk.

If the ATS turns out to be as good as expected, we might see higher residual values and if that's the case, we might get some kind of compensation for the higher price. We have to keep in mind that many buyers are only willing to swallow BMW's hefty price-tags because they also tend to obtain their value quite well. If Cadillac can achieve the same, I'll stand corrected. "Competing with the 3-series" has far more aspects than MSRP and performance. The entire package has to be competitive.

I would feel a little guilty to pay more than $50K on the ATS - TODAY. However, a high residual, a nice incentive and as a result, an attractive lease-payment could certainly win some buyers over - including me.
It was a bold move from Cadillac to aim directly at BMW and adjust their pricing accordingly. Favorable reviews of a new car is a good beginning - but being able to compete with BMW in the market is everything but easy - and that's why I am a bit concerned. A higher price puts the ATS under high pressure.

Last but not least, I'm really surprised that even highly experienced members on this board seem to have a huge difficulty in telling the difference between the criticism of a product and the criticism of a market strategy and to make things worse, feel the need to personally judge other members if they share a different opinion. That really makes you wonder..:hmm:

Cadillac Tony
07-30-12, 10:36 AM
I think the biggest misconception is that Cadillac just arbitrarily "decided" to price the ATS comparably to the 3 series. This is false.

In the past, even when benchmarking a competitor, GM has built vehicles while looking for ways during design to undercut the cost of their rival. Usually this means heavier or lower cost materials, which allowed them to offer a similar size and featured product but for less money. With the ATS, the cost factor was mostly ignored during the engineering phase, instead focusing on weight. In fact, the design team were given the mantra "Every day, every engineer, every gram" during development. Instead of building the car to meet a price point, they did what they needed to in order to make a car that genuinely compared to or exceeded the competition.

As far as lease cost, residuals and incentives, all three are not compatible. High incentives hurt resale value, which is why in the past, BMWs have held higher residuals than Cadillac. Over the last few years this has started changing however- Edmunds.com gave the award for "Best Resale Value, Sedan over $40k" to the CTS, and "Best Resale Value, Luxury Brand" to Acura, Lexus and Cadillac.

See full list here (http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/best-retained-value-cars.html)

People seem to want it both ways. They want tons of incentives on the new cars to make them affordable, but then want a high resale value- the two are incompatible. Cars with high resale values have good reviews, high demand and low incentives. If you want affordable leases on the ATS, then you should hope sales are brisk and incentives are not needed. THAT will lead to high residuals and low leasing.

DG2
07-30-12, 12:17 PM
I think the biggest misconception is that Cadillac just arbitrarily "decided" to price the ATS comparably to the 3 series. This is false.

In the past, even when benchmarking a competitor, GM has built vehicles while looking for ways during design to undercut the cost of their rival. Usually this means heavier or lower cost materials, which allowed them to offer a similar size and featured product but for less money. With the ATS, the cost factor was mostly ignored during the engineering phase, instead focusing on weight. In fact, the design team were given the mantra "Every day, every engineer, every gram" during development. Instead of building the car to meet a price point, they did what they needed to in order to make a car that genuinely compared to or exceeded the competition.

As far as lease cost, residuals and incentives, all three are not compatible. High incentives hurt resale value, which is why in the past, BMWs have held higher residuals than Cadillac. Over the last few years this has started changing however- Edmunds.com gave the award for "Best Resale Value, Sedan over $40k" to the CTS, and "Best Resale Value, Luxury Brand" to Acura, Lexus and Cadillac.

See full list here (http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/best-retained-value-cars.html)

People seem to want it both ways. They want tons of incentives on the new cars to make them affordable, but then want a high resale value- the two are incompatible. Cars with high resale values have good reviews, high demand and low incentives. If you want affordable leases on the ATS, then you should hope sales are brisk and incentives are not needed. THAT will lead to high residuals and low leasing.

That is exactly why the ATS is a sensation amoungst the automotive press. The listened to the engineers NOT the accountants and other bean counters. Good stuff indeed and the market will pay fir something they really want. Ie: Harley -Davidson. People willing to spend more because they want one.

ddawson
07-30-12, 03:15 PM
If you can't afford the car, get off of this forum.

HansK
07-30-12, 04:27 PM
Ok, yes Cadillac is alone in pricing their 'entry-level' car at the same price as their 'big' car in the luxury market for one reason. The XTS is cheap as hell compared to the competition. No one thinks the XTS is comparable to a 7 series or an A8. It's not the same kind of car, that fact alone negates your comparison. Yes, I can see why you think it's odd that the small and large car are so close in price, but that doesn't mean something is wrong. It's just different from the competition.

CaddyFanFL
07-30-12, 05:15 PM
Ok, yes Cadillac is alone in pricing their 'entry-level' car at the same price as their 'big' car in the luxury market for one reason. The XTS is cheap as hell compared to the competition.

So the XTS is cheap compared to the competition and the ATS costs as much as the competition. This is causing the price/value conflict within Cadillac I've been talking about since my first post.



No one thinks the XTS is comparable to a 7 series or an A8. It's not the same kind of car, that fact alone negates your comparison.

"My comparison"? I never compared the XTS to a 7-series or an A8. I think this is the third time that I'm pointing out that I was talking about pricing WITHIN the brand and I only mentioned the A8 and 7-series because they have about the same size as the XTS. Besides that, what "kind of car" is the XTS if not a luxury sedan? I just like to know since you mentioned its competition. If you take out the 7-series, A8 and Mercedes S-Class and consider the Lincoln MKS as its main competition, you might have a better comparison - but looking at the MKS, the XTS isn't "cheap as hell" anymore.

HansK
07-30-12, 09:00 PM
So the XTS is cheap compared to the competition and the ATS costs as much as the competition. This is causing the price/value conflict within Cadillac I've been talking about since my first post.



"My comparison"? I never compared the XTS to a 7-series or an A8. I think this is the third time that I'm pointing out that I was talking about pricing WITHIN the brand and I only mentioned the A8 and 7-series because they have about the same size as the XTS. Besides that, what "kind of car" is the XTS if not a luxury sedan? I just like to know since you mentioned its competition. If you take out the 7-series, A8 and Mercedes S-Class and consider the Lincoln MKS as its main competition, you might have a better comparison - but looking at the MKS, the XTS isn't "cheap as hell" anymore.

You're comparing it to those brands. Why is it so hard to come to terms with a larger car having a similar price to a smaller one? They're different vehicles. Cadillac doesn't have a ultra-high end vehicle to cause a huge price gap like you're looking for. It will be there eventually, just get over it. The XTS IS a luxury sedan but it's not on the same level as an A8L...
No the XTS isn't cheap compared to the competition, it's cheap compared to the upper end of the brands that you're comparing the ATS to. You're making a problem out of the fact that Cadillac's line of cars doesn't fit the mold of others. You're getting what you pay for with both cars, they're just different...

blackonblackNYC
07-31-12, 03:28 PM
Just did the ATS fully loaded with all options comes out to 55K...that's too much. The car has to come in at 5K under the 3-series at the upper trims. Otherwise there's no point in getting it...big mistake. I'm not paying 55K for an entry level sports sedan. I want MRC, Nav, AWD, sunroof and 3.6V6 for just about 50K...if I'm going to pay 55K why not get a 335i with a twin turbo...really???

Can I expect to pay 65K for a non-V Cadillac CTS next year...puh-lease!!!

AtlantaGuy00
07-31-12, 07:21 PM
Has anyone ever ordered a car? Should I wait to take one from dealer inventory or will I get the one I want faster by ordering it?

HansK
07-31-12, 08:56 PM
Has anyone ever ordered a car? Should I wait to take one from dealer inventory or will I get the one I want faster by ordering it?

I have ordered before, I think with something that is brand new it's a gamble. You might be able to get the exact car you want on the lot sooner than your order would arrive, but odds are against it. If you're talking about something like a VW (which we aren't) where you basically get 3 option packages then you have good odds but with cars like Cadillacs where there are more options/combinations it doesn't seem likely you'll walk on the lot and find it.

The Tony Show
07-31-12, 09:53 PM
Just did the ATS fully loaded with all options comes out to 55K...that's too much. The car has to come in at 5K under the 3-series at the upper trims. Otherwise there's no point in getting it...big mistake. I'm not paying 55K for an entry level sports sedan. I want MRC, Nav, AWD, sunroof and 3.6V6 for just about 50K...if I'm going to pay 55K why not get a 335i with a twin turbo...really???



Yeah, and I want to date Jessica Biel, but it doesn't mean it's realistic.

Your OPINION may be that the car needs to be less expensive than the 335, but then again the 3 doesn't allow you to remotely lock, unlock or start the car with your smartphone, doesn't have CUE, Brembo brakes, MRC, unique styling and more.

There's always going to be people willing to pay a price premium for a badge, and more power to ya. While you're flying under the radar in your generic 3 series, I'm sure there's plenty of people willing to buy that ATS you passed up and enjoy all the extra equipment for the same price. :thumbsup:

JimmyH
08-01-12, 12:05 AM
In a year or so, I'd be quite happy with a 1-year-old base 2.0T for $22k :whistle:

DG2
08-01-12, 01:28 AM
Just did the ATS fully loaded with all options comes out to 55K...that's too much. The car has to come in at 5K under the 3-series at the upper trims. Otherwise there's no point in getting it...big mistake. I'm not paying 55K for an entry level sports sedan. I want MRC, Nav, AWD, sunroof and 3.6V6 for just about 50K...if I'm going to pay 55K why not get a 335i with a twin turbo...really???

Can I expect to pay 65K for a non-V Cadillac CTS next year...puh-lease!!!

Just did a "Build your own "on a BMW 335i xdrive. $56,720 !!

This is the league Cadillac is playing in gents. Having the ATS start in low $30s and go over $50 k is competitive with the main company that GM wants to knock off the Thorne. Long gone is a cheap Caddy.

thebigjimsho
08-01-12, 12:29 PM
Just did the ATS fully loaded with all options comes out to 55K...that's too much. The car has to come in at 5K under the 3-series at the upper trims. Otherwise there's no point in getting it...big mistake. I'm not paying 55K for an entry level sports sedan. I want MRC, Nav, AWD, sunroof and 3.6V6 for just about 50K...if I'm going to pay 55K why not get a 335i with a twin turbo...really???

Can I expect to pay 65K for a non-V Cadillac CTS next year...puh-lease!!!

Again, you're used to the cheap Cadillac. The ATS is a MAJOR PLAYER in this segment. If you don't want to pay to play, move on to struggling Lincoln. Cadillac has come out with its first no compromises car and people are bitching on price.

Just like all those guys with DTSs waiting for the Omega cars. If they think they're getting cheap dinosaurs, they're in for a rude awakening.

Get used to appropriately priced Cadillacs. Seems like you're not yet...

blackonblackNYC
08-01-12, 02:14 PM
I'm a market research professional, I study consumers everyday in addition to being one of this brand. If all of the critics are saying the 3-series is over priced then what does that make an equally priced ATS???? Furthermore, the car is close but NOT as good performance wise...and lastly given that BMW and Mercedes get by with over priced vehicles because most of their sales are leases, while Cadillac aren't...how do you anticipate those market dynamics changing overnight???

You can insult me all day long...but it's clear that whatever you do marketing and sales isn't one of them.

blackonblackNYC
08-01-12, 02:17 PM
Just did a "Build your own "on a BMW 335i xdrive. $56,720 !!

This is the league Cadillac is playing in gents. Having the ATS start in low $30s and go over $50 k is competitive with the main company that GM wants to knock off the Thorne. Long gone is a cheap Caddy.

My caddy isn't cheap, I bought the best American sedan ever made at that time. It's about charging a premium for a car when the consumer has no knowledge of the resale value, etc.

blackonblackNYC
08-01-12, 02:21 PM
Again, you're used to the cheap Cadillac. The ATS is a MAJOR PLAYER in this segment. If you don't want to pay to play, move on to struggling Lincoln. Cadillac has come out with its first no compromises car and people are bitching on price.

Just like all those guys with DTSs waiting for the Omega cars. If they think they're getting cheap dinosaurs, they're in for a rude awakening.

Get used to appropriately priced Cadillacs. Seems like you're not yet...

Again, insults don't do anything for your point...you're one guy on a fan site. Unless GM/Cadillac comes up with attractive leases which is the way BMW and Mercedes "sell" most of their cars...the "equal pricing" won't work. The compact luxury segment IS the "cheap" segment genius, which is why they're leased most of the time...that's not the case for most GM sales, it's the exact opposite...especially when you remove taxi and limousine. Do the math on that and then get back to me...

CaddyFanFL
08-01-12, 02:26 PM
I'm a market research professional, I study consumers everyday in addition to being one of this brand. If all of the critics are saying the 3-series is over priced then what does that make an equally priced ATS???? Furthermore, the car is close but NOT as good performance wise...and lastly given that BMW and Mercedes get by with over priced vehicles because most of their sales are leases, while Cadillac aren't...how do you anticipate those market dynamics changing overnight???

This is what concerned me as well. The ATS is almost as good as the 3-series, costs almost as much as the 3-series. So far, so good.

But will it obtain its value as good? Will I get the same customer service and last but not least, is Cadillac going to earn the same reputation any time soon?

Reputation might not have a value for the invidual buyer, but in the great picture, it has. Only time will tell - but what Cadillac did certainly is risky..

CaddyFanFL
08-01-12, 02:31 PM
Again, insults don't do anything for your point...you're one guy on a fan site.

Yeah, I keep that in mind, too. And you can feel it as soon as you dare to post any form of criticism.

I'm active on many car-forums but those at the GM-boards (GMinsideline, too) tend to have a need to get at you personally. Very strange...

JimmyH
08-01-12, 02:43 PM
You are going to find that on any forum. The majority of folks here are stalwart supporters of GM. You are going to find it to be more pronounced on GM, Ford, and Chrysler forums because there is going to be more of a tendency to be personally supportive of those makes. They are American. We are American. Supporters of BMW, Lexus, etc are not as personally invested because those are foreign entities.

The bottom line is that if you don't like the ATS, don't buy it. If someone here says something you don't like, ignore it.

CaddyFanFL
08-01-12, 03:46 PM
You are going to find that on any forum. The majority of folks here are stalwart supporters of GM. You are going to find it to be more pronounced on GM, Ford, and Chrysler forums because there is going to be more of a tendency to be personally supportive of those makes. They are American. We are American. Supporters of BMW, Lexus, etc are not as personally invested because those are foreign entities.

You are absolutely right.



The bottom line is that if you don't like the ATS, don't buy it. If someone here says something you don't like, ignore it.

The funny thing is that I truly believe that the ATS is a phenomenal vehicle and that I even pointed out several times that I might be getting one in the future if the circumstances are right.

blackonblackNYC
08-01-12, 03:50 PM
You are going to find that on any forum. The majority of folks here are stalwart supporters of GM. You are going to find it to be more pronounced on GM, Ford, and Chrysler forums because there is going to be more of a tendency to be personally supportive of those makes. They are American. We are American. Supporters of BMW, Lexus, etc are not as personally invested because those are foreign entities.

The bottom line is that if you don't like the ATS, don't buy it. If someone here says something you don't like, ignore it.

I've only owned American cars - GM at that, and like many on here I bought my CTS when this company was on it's back (January 2009). I even took a 6K hit on the two year old car I was leasing at that time because I was in love with the CTS. Criticism doesn't mean disloyalty. I love it when I have loyal fans of my business tell me what I should improve upon, that's how you keep the doors open. We're not people who've not put our money where our mouths are. I voice my opinion on here because I know Cadillac/GM pays attention...and ideally I would like to see the company grow. I don't want to buy a foreign car, but I also want good value...where's the crime in advocating for that? Besides, I'm pretty confident that there will be rebates and loyalty programs available towards the end of the year...so I'm not terribly upset. But you guys really shouldn't be so uptight about tried and true GM customers voicing their opinions.

DG2
08-01-12, 03:51 PM
Yeah, I keep that in mind, too. And you can feel it as soon as you dare to post any form of criticism.

I'm active on many car-forums but those at the GM-boards (GMinsideline, too) tend to have a need to get at you personally. Very strange...

I don't think it's anything personal. I think that GM fans have put up for years and years of negative unfair criticism of the brand by the press as they had orgasmic feelings that anything from Germany or Japan is automatically better then a GM product . This had many fans pretty fed up. Now, that GM is truly back to making cars better then the foreign brands it's time to stick your chest out a bit. By the way I include styling into that statement and there is no doubt that GM is leading the industry in that department

Now as for the BMW 3 and MB C comparisons lets all wait fur a side by side test not a " brochure" test.

JimmyH
08-01-12, 04:23 PM
There is nothing wrong with criticizing the ATS. Or any Cadillac. That is what this forum is for. My point is that if you come here, to a Cadillac website, criticizing Cadillac cars, you have to expect you are going to get backlash from other members. If you choose to take that backlash as an insult, that's on you. It helps to have thick skin when you are on any discussion forum.

CaddyFanFL
08-01-12, 04:29 PM
I don't think it's anything personal. I think that GM fans have put up for years and years of negative unfair criticism of the brand by the press as they had orgasmic feelings that anything from Germany or Japan is automatically better then a GM product . This had many fans pretty fed up. Now, that GM is truly back to making cars better then the foreign brands it's time to stick your chest out a bit. By the way I include styling into that statement and there is no doubt that GM is leading the industry in that department

Now as for the BMW 3 and MB C comparisons lets all wait fur a side by side test not a " brochure" test.

I've bought many German cars in the past just because the American brands didn't have much to show for. Over the last couple of years, however, that changed. All "big three" are showing a tremendous improvement I never even dreamed of.

The mid-facelifted Jeep Grand Cherokee will be a blast - much better than the current MY - and improving that was already difficult. The new Lincoln MKZ will be the best equipped and technologically evolved vehicle ever by Ford/Lincoln. And then you have either the sporty ATS or the feature-loaded (and I'm confident it will be just that) CTS with CUE.

Just as blackonblack said, buying a car with a great value makes me happy as well.

I owned three BMWs in the past - two sedans and an SUV. They certainly were in a different performance-league than the cars I just mentioned but when you get older, you tend to have different priorities. And having the option to buy three very well equipped American vehicles instead puts a smile on my face. And "value" certainly plays a role, too. I only know that I won't be buying any more overpriced imports. The SUV will be replaced by a Grand Cherokee, the first sedan by a Lincoln MKZ and the second one by either an ATS or CTS. I'm confident that both cars will deliver plenty of joy when driving them and if so, it will indeed be coming down to value.

Fortunately, I'm planning on getting these cars in two years or so which gives me the opportunity to closely follow the "ATS/CTS"-battle and make my decision accordingly.

CaddyFanFL
08-01-12, 04:34 PM
There is nothing wrong with criticizing the ATS.

As I said, the funny thing is that I never criticized the car itself - actually, not even the price of the car compared to its competition. Just the pricing withing the brand.

DG2
08-01-12, 04:58 PM
I've bought many German cars in the past just because the American brands didn't have much to show for. Over the last couple of years, however, that changed. All "big three" are showing a tremendous improvement I never even dreamed of.

The mid-facelifted Jeep Grand Cherokee will be a blast - much better than the current MY - and improving that was already difficult. The new Lincoln MKZ will be the best equipped and technologically evolved vehicle ever by Ford/Lincoln. And then you have either the sporty ATS or the feature-loaded (and I'm confident it will be just that) CTS with CUE.

Just as blackonblack said, buying a car with a great value makes me happy as well.

I owned three BMWs in the past - two sedans and an SUV. They certainly were in a different performance-league than the cars I just mentioned but when you get older, you tend to have different priorities. And having the option to buy three very well equipped American vehicles instead puts a smile on my face. And "value" certainly plays a role, too. I only know that I won't be buying any more overpriced imports. The SUV will be replaced by a Grand Cherokee, the first sedan by a Lincoln MKZ and the second one by either an ATS or CTS. I'm confident that both cars will deliver plenty of joy when driving them and if so, it will indeed be coming down to value.

Fortunately, I'm planning on getting these cars in two years or so which gives me the opportunity to closely follow the "ATS/CTS"-battle and make my decision accordingly.

I drove BMWs for years . I owned the 5 Series and an X5. The 2004 CTS perked my interest and I went for a test drive and bought the car on the spot. I do not miss the bummers at all and realm enjoy the pluses the Caddy offers. I live in metro NYC so the real world comfort of the Cadillacs is far superior ti my previous BMWs. From a realibilitu stand point there is NO comparison. The Cadillac wins hands down. I drive over 25,000 miles per year and I had many issues with the BMW. My Cadillacs have really been bulletproof. My newest purchase is last year, 201- Escalade for my wife( family car). Just hit 20,000 at one year anniversary and I tell you , nothing , absolutely nothing has gone wrong with that car. Not a squeak ,rattle or gremlin of any car.

DG2
08-01-12, 05:03 PM
I should've mentioned that my 2005 STS has 176,000 miles on it and the worse problem I had was a broken motor mount last year. People still ask me if the car is brand new. that's why I stick up for Caddy. The make a world class priduct that will now be even better with new ATS

stabie
08-02-12, 12:21 AM
I know the car mags would never say it, but it could be the ATS with the MR shock technology is *better* than the bmw.
Engine power is a wash given the ATS is slightly lighter. Tech features are superior in the ATS. So the ATS may be better than the bmw in some people's opinion for less bucks. I agree the risk is how well will the car hold value. Only time will tell.


I'm a market research professional, I study consumers everyday in addition to being one of this brand. If all of the critics are saying the 3-series is over priced then what does that make an equally priced ATS???? Furthermore, the car is close but NOT as good performance wise...and lastly given that BMW and Mercedes get by with over priced vehicles because most of their sales are leases, while Cadillac aren't...how do you anticipate those market dynamics changing overnight???

You can insult me all day long...but it's clear that whatever you do marketing and sales isn't one of them.

thebigjimsho
08-02-12, 01:05 PM
This car has not even made it to the public. No one knows what the car will do. Critiquing, market research, its all a crapshoot. I can tell you the best, and most reliable way into Boston from Concord. Doesn't mean I can't guarantee the Mass Pike won't be wide open.

blkcaddy
08-03-12, 12:17 PM
This car has not even made it to the public. No one knows what the car will do. Critiquing, market research, its all a crapshoot. I can tell you the best, and most reliable way into Boston from Concord. Doesn't mean I can't guarantee the Mass Pike won't be wide open.

Huh?

blkcaddy
08-03-12, 12:31 PM
Ats is overpriced. Gets expensive too fast....5000 each level up. The front end looks great with the lower led and metal insert but only problem is you have to pay 10k to get it. Typical gm move. Car will mainly be bought by enthusiast at those prices. Average American won't be able to afford it unless they buy watered down version. I see Cadillac giving huge incentives or special lease deals once the hype dies down and they figure out they can't sell the car. We are in one of the worst economies since the early 90's.

DG2
08-03-12, 02:23 PM
Ats is overpriced. Gets expensive too fast....5000 each level up. The front end looks great with the lower led and metal insert but only problem is you have to pay 10k to get it. Typical gm move. Car will mainly be bought by enthusiast at those prices. Average American won't be able to afford it unless they buy watered down version. I see Cadillac giving huge incentives or special lease deals once the hype dies down and they figure out they can't sell the car. We are in one of the worst economies since the early 90's.

How wrong you are on all points. This car will be an enormous success for Cadillac. Not only did they build the car for the "enthusiast " but there new marketing blitz Cadillac vs the World" is brilliant. It is speaking to the younger generation and at the same time all of the car enthusiast who normally buy cars made in Germany

As for the economy. While still rough and recovering the people shopping for cars in this league are all professionals and skilled labor. They can afford no problem. Proof?
Just look at BMW sales numbers on the 3Series.

JimmyH
08-03-12, 02:26 PM
their

The Tony Show
08-03-12, 02:27 PM
Cadillac went three years without a single incentive on the SRX Crossover and it's sold incredibly well, and that vehicle didn't have 1/10th of the buzz surrounding it that the ATS does.

People with the mentality that Cadillac can't sell a car without incentives are part of the problem and need to get caught up with modern times. Cadillac retail sales are up, residuals are up, quality ratings are up and incentives are down. If you're holding your breath for a big rebate on new ATSs or cheap one year old resales then you might turn blue waiting.

JimmyH
08-03-12, 03:05 PM
I am not waiting. I am foolishly hoping. A guy can dream.

blkcaddy
08-03-12, 11:39 PM
How wrong you are on all points. This car will be an enormous success for Cadillac. Not only did they build the car for the "enthusiast " but there new marketing blitz Cadillac vs the World" is brilliant. It is speaking to the younger generation and at the same time all of the car enthusiast who normally buy cars made in Germany

As for the economy. While still rough and recovering the people shopping for cars in this league are all professionals and skilled labor. They can afford no problem. Proof?
Just look at BMW sales numbers on the 3Series.

BMW sells because people looking for a car in that segment buy that car! BMW will always sell! But remember that BMW's are mostly leased so their numbers will always be high! And I know for a fact if you buy a new 2012 3 series you can get a 6,000 dollar discount because the 2013 is arriving.

thebigjimsho
08-04-12, 12:31 AM
BMW sells because people looking for a car in that segment buy that car! BMW will always sell! But remember that BMW's are mostly leased so their numbers will always be high! And I know for a fact if you buy a new 2012 3 series you can get a 6,000 dollar discount because the 2013 is arriving.

Go buy your 2012 and leave us alone then, oh market analrapist...

AtlantaGuy00
08-04-12, 02:16 AM
Well, I'm buying n ATS as soon as the one I want hits the showroom floor. I'm hoping to be at least $500-1000 off MSRP but we'll see. Just so long as I don't have to tell my friends I payed full sticker. Lol. But yes, I'm one of the guys willing to take the hit and be the first. Manly because the car will perfectly meet my needs and I don't want to wait a year or two for the off lease ones. This will be my 5th Cadillac but my first new one. And, new NEW model at that so I'm excited! O to all you guys fussing about depreciation and marketing..... I don't care. People will buy them. I'm proof. Yes, deals will come later but I'm not waiting. Now, what color?!

ddawson
08-04-12, 09:58 AM
My sentiment also. If you want it buy it. The end.

JimmyH
08-04-12, 12:34 PM
I am anxious to see an ATS in the blue color. Not a picture, I want to see it first hand.

EnvoyBu
08-04-12, 03:08 PM
I am anxious to see an ATS in the blue color. Not a picture, I want to see it first hand.

The lighter glacier blue or the darker sapphire blue?

JimmyH
08-04-12, 05:53 PM
Opulent Blue, I guess it's called. i don't like the glacier blue.

AtlantaGuy00
08-04-12, 06:02 PM
I'm thinking of either Thunder Gray Chromaflair or one of the blacks. I'll have to see them in person to decide. I wish they offered the car in the Mocha Steel Metallic but they don't....

EnvoyBu
08-04-12, 09:20 PM
Opulent Blue, I guess it's called. i don't like the glacier blue.


did you mean the opulent blue rather than sapphire blue or is there another color not shown on build page?

Oops. I think Sapphire Blue is only on the XTS. Your correct. It's Opulent Blue.

Caddy Chris
08-05-12, 10:26 PM
Cadillac went three years without a single incentive on the SRX Crossover and it's sold incredibly well, and that vehicle didn't have 1/10th of the buzz surrounding it that the ATS does.

People with the mentality that Cadillac can't sell a car without incentives are part of the problem and need to get caught up with modern times. Cadillac retail sales are up, residuals are up, quality ratings are up and incentives are down. If you're holding your breath for a big rebate on new ATSs or cheap one year old resales then you might turn blue waiting.

And today $2000 off and 0% and if you pay cash it is $4000 off sticker! Why such big incentives now? Could it be because Cadillac sales are way down which they are. And you can count on 1 year old ATS' taking a $10,000 hit easily. No disrespect intended but check the sales number for last quarter.

thebigjimsho
08-05-12, 10:57 PM
And today $2000 off and 0% and if you pay cash it is $4000 off sticker! Why such big incentives now? Could it be because Cadillac sales are way down which they are. And you can count on 1 year old ATS' taking a $10,000 hit easily. No disrespect intended but check the sales number for last quarter.Quick, I only have 30 minutes before tonight's lottery commences. I need numbers, MEOW!

The Tony Show
08-06-12, 08:43 AM
And today $2000 off and 0% and if you pay cash it is $4000 off sticker! Why such big incentives now? Could it be because Cadillac sales are way down which they are. And you can count on 1 year old ATS' taking a $10,000 hit easily. No disrespect intended but check the sales number for last quarter.

Simple- SRX is getting a facelift and CUE next year, so Cadillac wants to make sure they entice people to buy up the '12 inventory before the '13s arrive.

And "Such big incentives"? Toyota is offering $2,500 rebate on the Venza, a much less expensive crossover. If you consider a $2,000 rebate (for cash buyers only) on 3 year old, $40k+ vehicle that's about to be refreshed a "big incentive", you don't know Cadillac's history. It wasn't that long ago they offered $5-$7k rebates on DTS and STS. Times have changed.

Caddy Chris
08-06-12, 10:34 AM
Simple- SRX is getting a facelift and CUE next year, so Cadillac wants to make sure they entice people to buy up the '12 inventory before the '13s arrive.

And "Such big incentives"? Toyota is offering $2,500 rebate on the Venza, a much less expensive crossover. If you consider a $2,000 rebate (for cash buyers only) on 3 year old, $40k+ vehicle that's about to be refreshed a "big incentive", you don't know Cadillac's history. It wasn't that long ago they offered $5-$7k rebates on DTS and STS. Times have changed.

Yes but the DTS and STS were on the way to being phased out. The SRX is just getting a refresh. BTW Sewell Cadillac in Dallas Texas still had brand new 2011 SRX's in May of this year, and Sewell is one of the top selling dealers in the U.S. The area is saturated with Cadillac's, which tends to drive the used price down. However the used price for an SRX is still pretty high even though Sewell has like 60 used SRX's. Wait till December and there will be a fire sale.

The Tony Show
08-06-12, 01:59 PM
Yes but the DTS and STS were on the way to being phased out. The SRX is just getting a refresh. BTW Sewell Cadillac in Dallas Texas still had brand new 2011 SRX's in May of this year, and Sewell is one of the top selling dealers in the U.S. The area is saturated with Cadillac's, which tends to drive the used price down. However the used price for an SRX is still pretty high even though Sewell has like 60 used SRX's. Wait till December and there will be a fire sale.

Sounds to me like Sewell's inventory manager does a poor job analyzing trends. And SRX resale values are high because *gasp* they sell well and haven't had large incentives. Shocking, I know.

I'll bet you 200 e-peen points, right now, that the rebate on SRX doesn't go above $2,500 this calendar year. Whaddya say?

M5eater
08-06-12, 02:05 PM
Sounds to me like Sewell's inventory manager does a poor job analyzing trends. And SRX resale values are high because *gasp* they sell well and haven't had large incentives. Shocking, I know.

I'll bet you 200 e-peen points, right now, that the rebate on SRX doesn't go above $2,500 this calendar year. Whaddya say?

I'll call and raise you, 400 e-peen points! and a gold star!

DG2
08-06-12, 02:27 PM
Also , Cadillac retired DTS and STS so you obviously were going to see sales numbers off last quarter.

ddawson
08-06-12, 02:48 PM
Getting back to the subject, ATS. Is Cadillac going to give an IPad with the ATS?

Caddy Chris
08-06-12, 03:10 PM
Sounds to me like Sewell's inventory manager does a poor job analyzing trends. And SRX resale values are high because *gasp* they sell well and haven't had large incentives. Shocking, I know.

I'll bet you 200 e-peen points, right now, that the rebate on SRX doesn't go above $2,500 this calendar year. Whaddya say?
I guess you owe me 200 e-peen points. This deal is good through 9/4/2012.95719

OH and I'll take that gold star too.

The Tony Show
08-06-12, 03:39 PM
I guess you owe me 200 e-peen points. This deal is good through 9/4/2012.<img src="http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=95719"/>

OH and I'll take that gold star too.

There's no rebate higher than $2k there- that's a dealer discount combined with incentives. Try harder.

M5eater
08-06-12, 03:41 PM
There's no rebate there. Try harder.
I lied anyway, I'm out of gold stars,

But I do have Bronze rectangles!

Caddy Chris
08-06-12, 03:48 PM
There's no rebate there. Try harder. What ever Dude. Sorry to make you eat your words. Guess you thought you were bantering with some half wit, blow hard who would not be able to produce objective evidence to prove you WRONG.

The Tony Show
08-06-12, 03:52 PM
You want to argue two different things. I'm still waiting to see a rebate higher than $2,500 on an SRX that would "prove me wrong". If you want me to eat my words, please provide it. Sewell is quoting a dealer discount combined with a relatively small $2,000 manufacturer's rebate- a completely different scenario than what we were discussing, which is a manufacturer's rebate alone.

You made the argument that nationwide, Cadillac required high incentives to sell. Providing an example of one dealership who stupidly overstocked and now has to blow them out to get rid of the inventory has nothing to do with how much rebate Cadillac is offering nationwide. SRX resale values are high and incentives are low, which is an indicator of high sales volume- Cadillac was up 21% over last year for the month of July in fact.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/01/july-2012-not-enough-time-edition/

It's perfectly normal to hope that the ATS is incentivized so you can get a great deal on one, but you don't need to invent spurious claims about the SRX to try and make your case as to why it should be. The SRX has been a smashing sales success with no rebates for its first 3 years, and the ATS will probably follow suit. Sorry if that chaps you so bad you feel the need to lash out at me.

M5eater
08-06-12, 03:59 PM
What ever Dude. Sorry to make you eat your words. Guess you thought you were bantering with some half wit, blow hard who would not be able to produce objective evidence to prove you WRONG.

ah yes, and we finnaly have degraded into what all internet discussions plumet to evenutally.

JimmyH
08-06-12, 04:23 PM
umm, what's an e-peen point? I am behind on my memes.

The Tony Show
08-06-12, 05:36 PM
umm, what's an e-peen point? I am behind on my memes.

It was just me being a sarcastic ass.

Caddy Chris, we shouldn't be arguing about this. All that really matters is that ATS is going to be awesome- the chips will fall where they may on pricing. Let's just get back to talking about the car.

ddawson
08-06-12, 05:49 PM
It's hard for me to believe some of these people are Cadillac owners. Some are SILLY.

Caddy Chris
08-06-12, 10:03 PM
You want to argue two different things. I'm still waiting to see a rebate higher than $2,500 on an SRX that would "prove me wrong". If you want me to eat my words, please provide it. Sewell is quoting a dealer discount combined with a relatively small $2,000 manufacturer's rebate- a completely different scenario than what we were discussing, which is a manufacturer's rebate alone.

You made the argument that nationwide, Cadillac required high incentives to sell. Providing an example of one dealership who stupidly overstocked and now has to blow them out to get rid of the inventory has nothing to do with how much rebate Cadillac is offering nationwide. SRX resale values are high and incentives are low, which is an indicator of high sales volume- Cadillac was up 21% over last year for the month of July in fact.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/01/july-2012-not-enough-time-edition/

It's perfectly normal to hope that the ATS is incentivized so you can get a great deal on one, but you don't need to invent spurious claims about the SRX to try and make your case as to why it should be. The SRX has been a smashing sales success with no rebates for its first 3 years, and the ATS will probably follow suit. Sorry if that chaps you so bad you feel the need to lash out at me.
You failed to look at the second quote sheet for paying cash. The Rebate is $4,000. It is a nation wide rebate. Call your local dealer. And you have me confused with someone else because I do not care what the price of the ATS is I am not buying one. It is too small. And I am not a Cadillac bargain shopper. I simply replied to your post that we would never see cut rate prices. It does not chap me at all what Cadillac does with their prices. But a definitive statement like the one you made off the cuff with facts does chap me. Again let's be clear I do not care what Cadillac does with the prices, I am not sure why you think I am a bargain bin Cadillac shopper, because I have never made a statement to that affect. The Cadillac dealer called me and told me about the rebates because my family has been buying Cadillac from them for 40 years. I said sure send email me the deal sheets. Sorry to hijack this thread. My apologies to all. I will shut up now.

The Tony Show
08-07-12, 12:39 AM
You failed to look at the second quote sheet for paying cash. The Rebate is $4,000. It is a nation wide rebate. Call your local dealer.

I'm very close with my local dealer, and I can assure you there is no $4,000 rebate. Unless you qualify for an ancillary offer that stacks on top of the $2k cash (like currently leasing a non-GM product) then $2k is the extent of the rebates. Maybe Sewell is just stripping out all their profit and holdback, or maybe the quote is erroneous.

Either way, this is the end of this line of conversation. Let's get back to talking about ATS.

EnvoyBu
08-07-12, 04:24 AM
How much do you guys think a lease on a fully optioned ATS Premium 3.6L is going to be? Will it be over $500 per month?

Cadillac Tony
08-07-12, 02:44 PM
How much do you guys think a lease on a fully optioned ATS Premium 3.6L is going to be? Will it be over $500 per month?

Without a nice down payment, probably yes.

I expect Cadillac's leases to closely mirror BMW's on the 3 series, since over 60% of 3 sales come from leases. BMW's current advertised lease on a 335i is for $459 (plus tax) with $4,200 down (plus license, title and dealer fees), which equates to $492 with about $6,000 down. My guess is it'll be close to that.

hueterm
08-07-12, 02:52 PM
For 12K miles per year?

HansK
08-07-12, 02:55 PM
For 12K miles per year?

That looks similar to the numbers I saw for 12k/yr.

I wish I only drove 12k a year so I could lease, I like getting new (or new to me) cars ever few years but I always tend to tear through the miles.

Cadillac Tony
08-07-12, 03:46 PM
For 12K miles per year?

BMW's offers page says 10k.

http://m.bmwusa.com/Offers/LeaseOffer/123Q

JimmyH
08-07-12, 06:30 PM
I wonder if they will ever do high mileage leases. Like 25k per year. Right now third party lessors charge like $800/mo for an Impala or Taurus. That's just crazy.

hueterm
08-07-12, 07:29 PM
Lease two... At 12k....

JimmyH
08-07-12, 07:51 PM
That's an idea. But I would still have to insure both of them.

investor74
08-07-12, 08:00 PM
Any guesses on the first ATS advertised lease deal?

CaddyFanFL
08-07-12, 11:29 PM
BMW's current advertised lease on a 335i is for $459 (plus tax) with $4,200 down (plus license, title and dealer fees), which equates to $492 with about $6,000 down. My guess is it'll be close to that.

It should be a bit less in real life (with perfect credit) since the published prices are always based on full MSRP.

AtlantaGuy00
08-08-12, 12:27 AM
So will those of us purchasing the car first have to pay full MSRP or can we hope to get the dealer to discount the price some? If so what would the target price be? I'm ready to purchase a 3.6 luxury model.

EnvoyBu
08-08-12, 05:32 AM
Food for thought:

CTS's can be had with zero down for around $300 per month here. A loaded CTS 3.6L Premium is going for around $490 per month. I hope the ATS stays around there.

M5eater
08-08-12, 09:46 AM
I wonder if they will ever do high mileage leases. Like 25k per year. Right now third party lessors charge like $800/mo for an Impala or Taurus. That's just crazy.

I paid $1000 for some kind of program from ally that pays for excess mileage up to 25K/year and then 50% of costs past 25K/year.

it also act's as a deposit for excess wear and things of that nature.

I didn't exactly ask for it-- It was thrown into the deal and I didn't realize it until we had finilized everything so I also didn't feel like waiting another hour for them to reprint everything. Looking at what it covers for $21/month though, it was worth it.

gmlr
08-08-12, 10:36 AM
The BMW 3 series has a lot of incentives, there are over 3,000 dollars in option cash, also dealer cash, also lease cash. Add it all up over 6,000 dollars in incentives. The 5 series and 7 series also have a lot of incentives. Its so cheap to lease a 3 series that it makes little sense for most drivers to buy one, thus the high lease take rate. Also the lot is full of loaners cars with 2,000 to 4,000 miles that are on sale with good prices and incentives that can be leased or brought. So come off the high chair. A friend of mine just picked up a 328ix Black leather, 36 month $415 a month sign and drive, taxes/reg up front bank fee in loan. She could of picked up a loaner with 2200 miles same car for $305 a month and they had 12 other loaners that were the same and they looked perfect. The fact of the matter is the ATS will lease at a higher price than many 3 series because the incentives will be lower on the ATS. Great job GM.

AtlantaGuy00
08-08-12, 11:22 AM
The BMW's have been in production for years, and the ATS and the XTS' are new. Don't give it away for a dime if it's worth a dollar. Why does BMW have to offer deep incentives to get their cars off of the lots? That explains why they are a dime a dozen around Atlanta. When you see one, nobody really pays them any attention.

M5eater
08-08-12, 11:37 AM
The BMW 3 series has a lot of incentives, there are over 3,000 dollars in option cash, also dealer cash, also lease cash. Add it all up over 6,000 dollars in incentives. The 5 series and 7 series also have a lot of incentives. Its so cheap to lease a 3 series that it makes little sense for most drivers to buy one, thus the high lease take rate. Also the lot is full of loaners cars with 2,000 to 4,000 miles that are on sale with good prices and incentives that can be leased or brought. So come off the high chair. A friend of mine just picked up a 328ix Black leather, 36 month $415 a month sign and drive, taxes/reg up front bank fee in loan. She could of picked up a loaner with 2200 miles same car for $305 a month and they had 12 other loaners that were the same and they looked perfect. The fact of the matter is the ATS will lease at a higher price than many 3 series because the incentives will be lower on the ATS. Great job GM.

The fact is the car's not avaliable for sale, we have no idea what it will lease for. The fact is, the 3 series has a 60% take on lease rates, GM knows this and knows leasing is a big point of interest for luxury cars, they also know the ATS has various selli
ng points that posistion it as a better car than the 3 series. They *also* know that they're introducting a brand new vehicle against a model refresh, so there's going to be a lot more interested new comers in their car than a someone who just wants to fall back on the 3 series.

All this speculative nonsense is pointless.

gmlr
08-08-12, 02:46 PM
This is not speculation but fact. GM new cars have low incentives. Look at the XTS and SRX, there are no $6,000 plus incentives. Now look at the BMW 3,5 and 7 lots of cash on the hood, dealer cash, option cash and lease cash, thats a fact. There will be no $6,000 dollar hood cash on the 2013 ATS,XTS or SRX. Also when the next gen CTS and Esc SUV come out next year their incentives will also fall in line.
I saw two ladies pushing to get into a XTS yesterday, the person who lost went and put a deposit down on the spot, that was something to see. Great job GM.

DG2
08-09-12, 12:27 AM
The BMW 3 series has a lot of incentives, there are over 3,000 dollars in option cash, also dealer cash, also lease cash. Add it all up over 6,000 dollars in incentives. The 5 series and 7 series also have a lot of incentives. Its so cheap to lease a 3 series that it makes little sense for most drivers to buy one, thus the high lease take rate. Also the lot is full of loaners cars with 2,000 to 4,000 miles that are on sale with good prices and incentives that can be leased or brought. So come off the high chair. A friend of mine just picked up a 328ix Black leather, 36 month $415 a month sign and drive, taxes/reg up front bank fee in loan. She could of picked up a loaner with 2200 miles same car for $305 a month and they had 12 other loaners that were the same and they looked perfect. The fact of the matter is the ATS will lease at a higher price than many 3 series because the incentives will be lower on the ATS. Great job GM.

It's a brand new model that has created international "buzz" from the motor press as well as regular news outlet raves That's all the incentive GM could ever dream of fit a ground up new model I'm sure a year or so from now the deals will get better.

DG2
08-09-12, 12:38 AM
High incentives go along with cars of low desirability .. Cadillac/GM has been doing a brilliant job of creating cars that people really want. Cadillac V Coupe, Buick Enclave, Chevy Cruz. Just wait for the C7 Corvette. Dealers will probably get a premium fir first year runs. Point is, if a car had the wow factor you don't need incentives to cheapen the brand.

BMW has become a "Honda" in terms of uniqueness Cadillac has been making the most
Unique , original cars since the intro of the first gen CTS.

JimmyH
08-09-12, 06:04 PM
:word:
I think GM and Ford have all the exciting new cars out there. The Germans and Japanese just seem to be visually refreshing the same cars from a decade ago.