: Motor Trend ATS First Test ''Has Cadillac really done it?'' ''YES''



M5eater
07-23-12, 08:54 AM
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1207_2013_cadillac_ats_first_test/



The singular question, then, is whether Cadillac can back it up. Given Cadillac's boasting and GM's general long-standing but finally fading habit of overpromising and under-delivering, I was skeptical. That new 3 Series is damn good, and I should know -- I'm assigned to MT's long-term 328i. Has Cadillac really done it?



The answer is yes.

DG2
07-23-12, 04:04 PM
That's awesome !!

concorso
07-23-12, 09:08 PM
The big unknown is how this will relate to sales. The 3 series has consistently stayed between 100 and 120k units for the last 15 years or so, with a few years exceeding that. I doubt the ATS will beat the 3 series in sales. I want it to, but common sense tells me that opinions havent changed that drastically yet. The CTS has consistently been in the 55-70 range. Is it too far fetched to think the ATS could break 80? Maybe 85? Has Cadillac said what they are hoping for?

M5eater
07-23-12, 09:27 PM
The big unknown is how this will relate to sales. The 3 series has consistently stayed between 100 and 120k units for the last 15 years or so, with a few years exceeding that. I doubt the ATS will beat the 3 series in sales. I want it to, but common sense tells me that opinions havent changed that drastically yet. The CTS has consistently been in the 55-70 range. Is it too far fetched to think the ATS could break 80? Maybe 85? Has Cadillac said what they are hoping for?

If the ATS manages 80-85 and the CTS drops to even half of it's current volume, I think that would be a victory for them. What's Mercedes and Audi putting out these days? A more reasonable goal would be to top the A4 or C-class. It will take generations of ATS's to topple BMW sales unless BMW slips up a refresh/new model.

ryanwgregg
07-23-12, 10:39 PM
Very good read....we shall see where we get with a full review and better timing equipment.

M5eater
07-23-12, 10:43 PM
Very good read....we shall see where we get with a full review and better timing equipment.
acutally beating the 3 series? That's a tall order, almost an impossible one, certinally the opportunity is there for the taking as the 3 series has become bloated over the years, but it's also had decades of refinement. The ATS is in it's first generation.

realisticly, I think if it's as good as the 3 series, it would be a victory. The CTS was almost as good as the 3/5 series, but it always fell short on more than one or two details, you always choose the CTS because it was a great compromise. If the only items Motor-trend have to complain about is the base engine no one will buy anyway and the bland cluster.. that's a great start.

DG2
07-23-12, 11:56 PM
Edmunds Inside line was very criticle of the engine selections but overall gave the ATS glowing review. Going be very interesting in the soon to come comparison. They did a great job and really deserve all the high praise they are getting.

I do think that the ATS will be an enormous success and will take a much bigger bite from BMW then everyone is thinking.

concorso
07-24-12, 09:58 PM
acutally beating the 3 series? That's a tall order, almost an impossible one, certinally the opportunity is there for the taking as the 3 series has become bloated over the years, but it's also had decades of refinement. The ATS is in it's first generation.

realisticly, I think if it's as good as the 3 series, it would be a victory. The CTS was almost as good as the 3/5 series, but it always fell short on more than one or two details, you always choose the CTS because it was a great compromise. If the only items Motor-trend have to complain about is the base engine no one will buy anyway and the bland cluster.. that's a great start.Those years of refinement have ingrained the 3 series in peoples minds as the go-to sport sedan from a luxury brand. Cadillacs reputation has improved, especially in the demographic that will buy sport sedans. The 3 series hasnt made any serious missteps, tho. Sure its gotten a little larger, a little softer, but its always been the best drivers car up to now. IF the ATS can match the 3 series, especially in the 'talked about' models, and Cadillac hits another homerun with the next CTS, I could certainly see the 2nd ATS actually beating the 3 series in some years. Just to be clear, Im talking about the N.American market. It might take 1 or 2 more generations for the ATS to make any headway in the world market.

Heres a question. Does Cadillac really want the ATS to beat the 3 series right away? Can you imagine the size of the target on Cadillacs back that BMW will then be aiming for? Im not sure sales leader is as important as having comparable sales #'s.

JimmyH
07-27-12, 05:30 PM
No one is going to beat the 3-series. Motortrend will not allow that.

DG2
07-27-12, 10:13 PM
No one is going to beat the 3-series. Motortrend will not allow that.

Motor Trend is the most pro American car magazine on the market. They are huge GM fans as well. Car&Driver , Road and Track , Automobile are the worst and I'm convinced they own substantial stock in BMW.

JimmyH
07-27-12, 11:50 PM
One is the same as the others.

M5eater
07-28-12, 12:13 PM
No one is going to beat the 3-series. Motortrend will not allow that.
Journalists are people. They're subject to bias like the rest of us. Decades of the 3 series reigning supreme over it's feeble lower-cast siblings will not be washed away by a single good vehicle that is still marketing as a good value car.

All these reviews saying that the ATS is so good that they'd have to drive both back-to-back to tell a difference is the highest praise that they've bestowed to any compact sedan since the 3 series took the crown that I'm aware of.

Let alone one that;
1) costs less
2) is in it's first generation
3) is associated with a brand that only recently disposed of a car like the DTS from it's lineup.
4) is American made.
5) has no faults other than the interior might be a bit too conservative.

DG2
07-28-12, 01:19 PM
Journalists are people. They're subject to bias like the rest of us. Decades of the 3 series reigning supreme over it's feeble lower-cast siblings will not be washed away by a single good vehicle that is still marketing as a good value car.

All these reviews saying that the ATS is so good that they'd have to drive both back-to-back to tell a difference is the highest praise that they've bestowed to any compact sedan since the 3 series took the crown that I'm aware of.

Let alone one that;
1) costs less
2) is in it's first generation
3) is associated with a brand that only recently disposed of a car like the DTS from it's lineup.
4) is American made.
5) has no faults other than the interior might be a bit too conservative.

Well said. This ATS is really causing a wonderful sensation out there. Fun to watch

JimmyH
07-28-12, 04:25 PM
3) is associated with a brand that only recently disposed of a car like the DTS from it's lineup.


That's what I am talking about right there. Why does it matter if Cadillac makes an ATS and a DTS? What does one have to do with the other? MT, CD, R&T; they judge based on image, not ability. And their journalists are not people. They are cogs in machines that are rapidly becoming extinct. Very few consumers really care what they think. Motortrend is pseudo-entertainment, not journalism. Just like Top Gear.

M5eater
07-28-12, 06:26 PM
Why does it matter if Cadillac makes an ATS and a DTS? What does one have to do with the other?

Brand image. You want to take on BMW? You need to dump the image that you can be associated with car's like the DTS.


MT, CD, R&T; they judge based on image, not ability.
The reality is though; Image sells cars, it's what this country's entire social environment revolves around in fact.

it's why Totoya's sales sank like the titanic in wake of the unintended acceleration crap, never mind that they almost all turned out to be bogus, or that all their other cars were perfectly fine. It's why every word and mis-spoken phrase by anyone with authority or fame is broken down and turning into something it's not or analyzed to demonize said person.
Image good sir, is a big deal, I dare say it's more important than anything else. It's why even though the latest generation Civic is basically worse than the one before it, it continues to sell well.

DG2
07-28-12, 07:32 PM
Image and an outstanding product equal enormous success. The ATS is going to be huge.

AtlantaGuy00
07-28-12, 08:48 PM
For me personally, I see so many BMW 3 series on the road that they don't really stand out. Aside from the fact that I'm sure it's a great car and all, they are just not unique. The Cadillac will stand out. That's part of what I like about it.

DG2
07-29-12, 12:34 AM
For me personally, I see so many BMW 3 series on the road that they don't really stand out. Aside from the fact that I'm sure it's a great car and all, they are just not unique. The Cadillac will stand out. That's part of what I like about it.

Excellent point. Where I live a BMW is as common as seeing a bunch of seagulls hanging out in a McDonalds parking lot. Cadillac has a fresh new line that is truly unique and a nice change from "Das auto from Deutschland ".

thebigjimsho
07-29-12, 01:21 AM
As a C&D reader for well over 30 years, I think their opinions are just about always spot on. I think your conspiracy theories are crap...

JimmyH
07-29-12, 04:39 PM
Brand image. You want to take on BMW? You need to dump the image that you can be associated with car's like the DTS.

Screw BMW. The DTS is a wonderful car. It may not be a driver's car, but it deserves far better than the media gives it credit for. It deserved better than alot of people on this forum gave it credit for. You guys seem to forget the same sources that condemned the DTS pretty much condemned the STS-V. So please excuse me if I put absolutely no stock in Motortrend or Top Gear. I refuse to believe either source is going to have any impact on ATS sales. Consumers, not journalists, will decide whether or not the ATS is a success.

AtlantaGuy00
07-29-12, 04:55 PM
Absolutely JimmyH! I have a 2007 DTS Lux II and I LOVE it! It's a magnificent car! It’s big, (Yes BIG, that’s the point) comfortable, classy and powerful. It’s the choice of all my friends for road trips. It still turns heads when I pick it up from the valet! It’s reliable... After almost 5 years it’s only needed oil changes, tires and a battery. It’s loaded with all of the options and is a joy to drive. Will it beat cars off of the line on a race track? Nope. Can it corner like a big BMW? Nope. Do I care? Nope. But at speed it will smoke almost everything else when it’s time to pass, and do it with 4 adults, luggage and a full tank of gas! Quite frankly I think Cadillac did the automotive buying public a dis-service by not updating the car and continuing to manufacture a refreshed version of it. In fact, one of the reasons I’m considering the ATS is so that I can put the DTS on light duty and not use it as a commuter as I intend to keep it a long, long time. I love my DTS!

JimmyH
07-29-12, 05:06 PM
Judging by this forum alone, Cadillac has alienated alot of customers by discontinuing the DTS. Just as Ford is alienating alot of customers by discontinuing the Crown Vic. I just don't understand why there is no room in the market for both new and old.

thebigjimsho
07-29-12, 06:41 PM
A dying engine and a need for plant space for BETTER cars...

DG2
07-29-12, 10:04 PM
The DTS is a great car for its purpose. No, it was not designed to blast through canyon roads and twisties like a Bimmer but fir it's purpose it's a great car. One can say BMW does not make a car like the DTS ! Remember, it wasn't that long ago where BMW and any German car had NO cup holders. The copied the American car companies to not only make a simple cup holder but other "driver comfort " features fit real world driving.

Now , with the ATS , CTS, XTS Cadillac has a lineup that should have the Germans crying in their apple strudel !!! Go USA !!!!

AtlantaGuy00
07-30-12, 02:29 AM
Oh, and did I mention I regularly drive it on long road trips from Atlanta to New Orleans (480 miles) on one tank of gas averaging about 26 mpg. cruising at average of about 85 MPH (often breaking 100) many times in triple digit heat and the car performs flawlessly? The a/c is cold, the tunes are loud and the engine purring. It tracks so straight that I dont have to hold the wheel when crossing Lake Ponchetrane. The car drives itself. I dont know what else you could really want. When i-10 gets rough the DTS remains composed and easy to hande. Just update the electronics and give it a Modern 8 speed transmission and thats it. I'd buy another one.

Jesda
07-30-12, 04:49 AM
The big unknown is how this will relate to sales. The 3 series has consistently stayed between 100 and 120k units for the last 15 years or so, with a few years exceeding that. I doubt the ATS will beat the 3 series in sales. I want it to, but common sense tells me that opinions havent changed that drastically yet. The CTS has consistently been in the 55-70 range. Is it too far fetched to think the ATS could break 80? Maybe 85? Has Cadillac said what they are hoping for?

The 3-series is also a global top-seller, a tall mountain for BMW's competitors to climb. ATS will probably do well enough in the US and Canada to justify a V-series, hopefully a coupe and convertible as well.

Jesda
07-30-12, 04:50 AM
The DTS is a great car for its purpose. No, it was not designed to blast through canyon roads and twisties like a Bimmer but fir it's purpose it's a great car. One can say BMW does not make a car like the DTS ! Remember, it wasn't that long ago where BMW and any German car had NO cup holders. The copied the American car companies to not only make a simple cup holder but other "driver comfort " features fit real world driving.

Now , with the ATS , CTS, XTS Cadillac has a lineup that should have the Germans crying in their apple strudel !!! Go USA !!!!

The Germans generally don't give a rip about the XTS, but Lexus should be concerned about Cadillac eating into ES sales. That's been Lexus's bread and butter for two decades.

M5eater
07-30-12, 08:58 AM
Judging by this forum alone, Cadillac has alienated alot of customers by discontinuing the DTS. Just as Ford is alienating alot of customers by discontinuing the Crown Vic. I just don't understand why there is no room in the market for both new and old.

What would you have Ford do? Dump millions into a BOF redesign and new powertrain for the livery business and goverment agencys? Even Government has to move on with the times eventually.


The Germans generally don't give a rip about the XTS, but Lexus should be concerned about Cadillac eating into ES sales. That's been Lexus's bread and butter for two decades.
It would be interesting to know what kind of buyer the ES people are. Do they look at the ES as an entry level LS, do they look at it as a feature-fest or just a resonably comfortable ride? Do they (dare I say) look at the styling? Do they bearly squeeze into these things on a lease?

DG2
07-30-12, 10:26 AM
The Germans generally don't give a rip about the XTS, but Lexus should be concerned about Cadillac eating into ES sales. That's been Lexus's bread and butter for two decades.

They will once their sales numbers go down. My point was with the new ATS, XTS and especially the 2014 CTS the Germans will see a big drop in sales. 4 years from now once the flagship comes out from Cadillac their numbers will go down even further.

gohawks63
07-30-12, 01:26 PM
They will once their sales numbers go down. My point was with the new ATS, XTS and especially the 2014 CTS the Germans will see a big drop in sales. 4 years from now once the flagship comes out from Cadillac their numbers will go down even further.

While the XTS and the ES are similar vehicles in that they are more luxury oriented FWD cars, their price points are different. The ES starts in the upper $37k range, while the XTS starts in the $40k range and goes up all the way to $60k which is in Lexus GS territory and the GS is more of a direct competitor to BMW given it is more performance oriented and RWD based.

The ATS seems to be the real deal based on early reviews. The CTS, both the first gen and especially 2nd gen were good starts to competing with BMW, but not BMW killers yet. Hopefully the 2014 model brings with it the same formula that the ATS has, but I don't see anyone who is a serious BMW shopper, cross shopping the XTS.

stabie
07-30-12, 03:35 PM
I was at the dealer last week and looked at an XTS. Not really my kind of car, but I got to see the configurable dash in person, which I wanted to see. Interior was very well executed, I thought. The sales guy was not thinking the XTS will be a volume seller, but he was expecting the ATS to do very well. I tend to agree, if for no other reason than pricing. The ATS is priced a little below bmw'er and they wisely offered many engines/features so entry can be quite low. I suspect if the ATS sells 100K+ units/yr gm management will be pee-ing their pants. Maybe in a couple of years after caddy continues to rebuild reputation they can hit those kinds of numbers. I am probably going to keep my CTS until the CTS update comes out. I am pretty tall (6,5) so I may shop an ATS, but will likely want the extra space of the CTS.


They will once their sales numbers go down. My point was with the new ATS, XTS and especially the 2014 CTS the Germans will see a big drop in sales. 4 years from now once the flagship comes out from Cadillac their numbers will go down even further.

DG2
07-30-12, 04:07 PM
When I am ready to replace my '05 STS I am going have a difficult decision between XTS,ATS and possibly wait for "14 CTS. If I were going buy right now I would go with XTS. I am a salesman and pretty much live in my car driving over 25,000 miles per year. I often take clients out to dinners/ lunch so the XTS has far more "creature comforts" for me. Albeit , I love the sportiness of the ATS.

DSNCB919
07-31-12, 11:36 AM
Ive always been interested in the ATS due to so many options in paint and interior and just plently of custom options.. but when reality hits I'm currently in a 03 DTS which I'm holding until times right.. I love that red interior but I'm afraid of a small car, I drive my friends Malibu sometimes And feel slightly closterfobic..

hueterm
08-06-12, 04:08 PM
Judging by this forum alone, Cadillac has alienated alot of customers by discontinuing the DTS. Just as Ford is alienating alot of customers by discontinuing the Crown Vic. I just don't understand why there is no room in the market for both new and old.

That is the key point...there is room.

If the ATS is as good as it appears, and Cadillac ranges from it all the way up to the ESV, there is definitely room to: keep the DTS (at least until Omega launches), add ATS, add XTS, add a Lambda...

There are still DTS buyers (yes, a bunch of them are old and a bunch are fleet...both "dirty" words in today's market). Ford is just as stupid for killing the Panther.

Yes, there are still those here who think Cadillac died in '96 when the last FWB went off the line, and that they should still be making 1992 Broughams. But it is funny how most DTS drivers I see are just fine with developing new models, even if they would never buy one.

I like the looks of the ATS -- I hope they sell a ton of them. I like the current CTS as well. I doubt I'll ever buy one of either, given their size. The XTS is nice in a lot of ways, but I'd want more (preferably V8) power.

V drivers, on the other hand, are typically much less...inclusive.

AtlantaGuy00
08-06-12, 05:24 PM
Something for everyone.... I'm going to replace a Mazda Miata MX5 with the ATS, so for me I'm getting a larger car! lol. I still have my DTS for when I need big. But, for a daily driver around metro Atlanta I like the size of the small Cadillac. I think the ATS will fill a perfect sweet spot... small, Cadillac amenities and powerful. But I wouldn't want it to be my only car.

thebigjimsho
08-08-12, 02:21 PM
That is the key point...there is room.

If the ATS is as good as it appears, and Cadillac ranges from it all the way up to the ESV, there is definitely room to: keep the DTS (at least until Omega launches), add ATS, add XTS, add a Lambda...

There are still DTS buyers (yes, a bunch of them are old and a bunch are fleet...both "dirty" words in today's market). Ford is just as stupid for killing the Panther.

Yes, there are still those here who think Cadillac died in '96 when the last FWB went off the line, and that they should still be making 1992 Broughams. But it is funny how most DTS drivers I see are just fine with developing new models, even if they would never buy one.

I like the looks of the ATS -- I hope they sell a ton of them. I like the current CTS as well. I doubt I'll ever buy one of either, given their size. The XTS is nice in a lot of ways, but I'd want more (preferably V8) power.

V drivers, on the other hand, are typically much less...inclusive.

Why was Ford stupid for killing off the Panther? It was archaic, it was only sold to fleets since the public didn't want them anymore and they were only economical if underpowered. And, even then, only marginally.

The Town Car and the DTS both had to have these GIANT headrests for 2011. Why? Because their seats, and mounts, weren't up to current standards. The fact is, the cars were poor in current safety standards and they bring down the rest of the fleet's CAFE numbers in fuel efficiency.

M5eater
08-08-12, 02:28 PM
All of your points are valid, except maybe the CAFE standards. The 2011 Vic's were managing 16/24, that's not much worse than the SHO's 17/25. The million F-150's manage much worse than that. Certinally real-world MPG is different, but reality and everything there in contained does not apply to CAFE.

For a 20 year old 2 ton BOF car with a 2V V8 and a 4 speed auto, it gets very good gas mileage.

thebigjimsho
08-08-12, 02:39 PM
All of your points are valid, except maybe the CAFE standards. The 2011 Vic's were managing 16/24, that's not much worse than the SHO's 17/25. The million F-150's manage much worse than that. Certinally real-world MPG is different, but reality and everything there in contained does not apply to CAFE.

For a 20 year old 2 ton BOF car with a 2V V8 and a 4 speed auto, it gets very good gas mileage.

Come on, you just compared a CV to a specialized performance sedan. Why not compare our Vs to a last gen Malibu? Have you seen the Taurus with a 2.0 EcoBoost?

M5eater
08-08-12, 02:48 PM
Come on, you just compared a CV to a specialized performance sedan. Why not compare our Vs to a last gen Malibu? Have you seen the Taurus with a 2.0 EcoBoost?
I compared it to a vehicle which will be replacing it.

The ecoboost 3.5 and AWD will be a no cost option, the regular FWD V6 manages what? 18/27?

Besides, CAFE is changing into what the europeans do, small volume low MPG cars are out-balanced by the 1.6L ecoboost focus's.

hueterm
08-08-12, 03:42 PM
Why was Ford stupid for killing off the Panther? It was archaic, it was only sold to fleets since the public didn't want them anymore and they were only economical if underpowered. And, even then, only marginally.

The Town Car and the DTS both had to have these GIANT headrests for 2011. Why? Because their seats, and mounts, weren't up to current standards. The fact is, the cars were poor in current safety standards and they bring down the rest of the fleet's CAFE numbers in fuel efficiency.

My last sentence, personified...

You're the one who should be mourning the Panther and buying up old stock... Considering the difficulty you're having in finding a suitable replacement....

And now you're having to resort to headrests as an argument? If I'm facing down a drunk in his pickup, I'd much rather do it in a DTS or TC where there is plenty of room between me and the interior of the car.

M5eater
08-08-12, 03:50 PM
And now you're having to resort to headrests as an argument? If I'm facing down a drunk in his pickup, I'd much rather do it in a DTS or TC where there is plenty of room between me and the interior of the car.
Frontal sure. What about, you know, anywhere else on the car?
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=308
Or the fact that ford gave police a $5K option for a fire extinguisher system around the tanks because they were burning cars to the ground from rear-end collisions...

Now what about the Smart fortwo..
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=632

thebigjimsho
08-08-12, 05:35 PM
My last sentence, personified...

You're the one who should be mourning the Panther and buying up old stock... Considering the difficulty you're having in finding a suitable replacement....

And now you're having to resort to headrests as an argument? If I'm facing down a drunk in his pickup, I'd much rather do it in a DTS or TC where there is plenty of room between me and the interior of the car.

I have been in a multi car accident in an older Town Car. I was the middle car. My back end was crushed in about 2 feet. My front end was crumpled in about 2 feet. The Audi A6 had a cracked tail light and the gap from the rear bumper cover and rear fenders was was pinched.

I've seen pictures of 2 Vs collide on a road course at high speed. One got t-boned, one flipped and barrel-rolled about 5 times. The one t-boned wasn't totaled and the one that rolled had a passenger compartment that was not compromised.

I'd rather be in a high speed accident in my V than a low speed one in my Town Car. Period!

hueterm
08-08-12, 06:34 PM
So the accident crumpled part of the trunk well and maybe just past the radiator?

gohawks63
08-08-12, 10:33 PM
My last sentence, personified...

You're the one who should be mourning the Panther and buying up old stock... Considering the difficulty you're having in finding a suitable replacement....

And now you're having to resort to headrests as an argument? If I'm facing down a drunk in his pickup, I'd much rather do it in a DTS or TC where there is plenty of room between me and the interior of the car.

Mass doesn't guarantee safety.

Did you ever see this crash test of a 2009 Malibu vs. a 1959 Bel Air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_ptUrQOMPs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This second video is a bit longer with passenger compartment shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPF4fBGNK0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

thebigjimsho
08-08-12, 11:31 PM
So the accident crumpled part of the trunk well and maybe just past the radiator?

Yeah. And I had just stopped a foot short of the A6. A Crown Vic nailed me in the back at about 15-20mph. That much damage in the front? Oh yeah, I also had to force my door open and my seat broke backwards.

M5eater
08-09-12, 09:25 AM
BTW... incase anyone hasen't seen how large they've had to make the headrests in the 11's...
http://www.kentcityford.com/wp-content/gallery/2011-ford-crown-victoria-lx/2011-Ford-Crown-Victoria-LX-9.jpg


now burn out your eyes with acid!

hueterm
08-09-12, 10:59 AM
While they do take up half the volume of the cabin, those would fit me fine -- but what is some short person supposed to do w/those? If you were 5'6", your head would be underneath the restraint.

That's just a cheap workaround for a stupid gov't nanny reg. There's no reason a height adjustable, pivoting restraint couldn't be made to work just as well. If the driver doesn't adjust it properly, that's their problem.

HansK
08-09-12, 11:27 AM
Mass doesn't guarantee safety.

Did you ever see this crash test of a 2009 Malibu vs. a 1959 Bel Air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_ptUrQOMPs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This second video is a bit longer with passenger compartment shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPF4fBGNK0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Really liked that second vehicle. You feel safe in an old boat just because of how big it is, never seen crash tests on old cars before though.

thebigjimsho
08-09-12, 01:12 PM
BTW... incase anyone hasen't seen how large they've had to make the headrests in the 11's...

now burn out your eyes with acid!

When I bought my '11, my brother mocked my giant pillows. Of course, before I got it, I did too. I was going to retrofit older headrests but they used different size posts. grrr...

JimmyH
08-09-12, 06:12 PM
What's the problem with large headrests?

thebigjimsho
08-14-12, 09:17 AM
With the front seat up, it blocks a nice chunk of vision at an intersection. For clients in back, it reduces a LOT of forward visibility...