: Flex Fuel



donwon
07-19-12, 12:27 PM
Why are some vehicles made to run flex fuel, and what is flex fuel.

brandondeleo
07-19-12, 12:30 PM
Wikipedia is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicle

donwon
07-19-12, 12:39 PM
I just red it.
Seems that we have no choice but to run flex fuels in our modern autos.
Most stations all have Ethinol in the gas we put in our cars.

EcSTSatic
07-19-12, 01:31 PM
Except real flex fuel is 85% ethanol, Less power and MPG

bigm57ict
07-19-12, 01:59 PM
Technically, the fuel itself is not called "flex fuel". That title belongs on an engine that is designed to run different mixes of gasoline.

EcSTSatic
07-19-12, 02:03 PM
Technically, the fuel itself is not called "flex fuel". That title belongs on an engine that is designed to run different mixes of gasoline.

True. The fuel is actually called PC garbage :)

Submariner409
07-19-12, 05:08 PM
Yep...........The term "flex fuel" refers to cars/trucks with engine management systems that can adapt - or be switched - to one of two or more types of gasoline available in different parts of the country. E85 (85% ethanol) is the prime suspect. ALL modern engines will run on our standard E10, some will run on E15.

If you'll do some more gasoline homework you'll find that pre-1970's gasolines used tetraethyl lead as both an octane controller and a valve seat erosion preventive. The greenies of the '70's howled about lead in the atmosphere, so it was replaced by MTBE - Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether - as the octane controller and valve seats were case hardened at manufacture. In the 80's the EPA and greenies found out that MTBE was leaching out of underground storage tanks and polluting deep wellwater. Investigation found that ethanol (corn whisky; "white lightning"), mixed with gasoline in varying amounts, could be used as an octane controller and a petroleum diluter (phony term for perceived saving our oils and fattening the carefully assembled Corn Lobby). Because ethanol burns cooler than gasoline it not only controls (to some degree) octane numbers (flame travel speed), but it requires the engine to burn a bit more fuel to generate the same power = slight loss of gas mileage.

Ethanol is a powerful fuel system cleaner and is a cash cow for a lot of business people, so there is presently a push to have Congress mandate a percentage increase to E15 across the board, costing yet more fuel economy.

Given the fact that Ethanol simply LOVES water, I can't imagine the cool/cold weather storage/transfer problems of E85. E10 has cost the boating industry billions (billions) of dollars already and is happily eating the guts out of fiberglass fuel tanks as we type.

The-Dullahan
07-19-12, 11:59 PM
Corn is for eating.
Alcohol for drinking.
Gasoline for cleaning parts.
and Nitrous...is for racing.

That being said, it is my understanding that there are companies that still produce gasoline without ethanol in them and can be sold for purchase, but from what I hear, they are expensive. This is to be expected.

MrHolland
07-20-12, 01:40 AM
I agree with the above, with one exception - NITRO is for racing!!! I decline to say what Nitrous is for.

------The gas stations where I live only put ethanol in 89 octane. 87 and 91 is uncut, at least at KwikShop and BP. I think QT cuts all octanes.

donwon
07-20-12, 07:45 AM
On all the pumps I have seen in my area there is a sticker that says," This Gas Contains 10% Ethanol".
A while back Walmart/Murphy announced they would have 15% ethanol in their gas. An indipend lab came through the area and tested the gas from most of the stations.
Walmart had over 20% in theirs and the rest had at least 15 % in their gas.
I havn't found a station with all gas close by and the closest one is over 20 miles away near where my daughter lives.
I used only their gas for a month and could tell no difference in my 09 Mada 3. It is not a flex fuel car, at least it dosn't have a badge on it that says it is flex fuel. Guess I need to read the owners manual more.

MrHolland
07-20-12, 07:53 AM
^^^As stated above, the flex fuel option has nothing to do with the cars ability to burn E10, but rather E85.^^^

CadillacLuke24
07-21-12, 08:06 PM
I thought E85 gets MORE power and less mileage due to it burning hotter.

FlexFuel is General Motors' line of engines fitted in their cars, trucks, and SUVS to "capitalize" on E85 where offered. Like Sub mentioned, it's a good fuel system cleaner, and I'd imagine that E85 gets specialized engine because Ethanol at that concentration likes to devour fuel and engine system seals.

MrHolland
07-21-12, 09:36 PM
I thought it made more power also, it is quite a bit higher octane from what I understand.

EChas3
07-21-12, 09:37 PM
This is an example of how government 'helps' our 'success'.

Thank you, NO!

Ranger
07-21-12, 10:02 PM
Ethanol DOES increase octane, but remember, octane DOES NOT = power. Octane is just a measure of the fuels ability to resist detonation. Nothing more.

MrHolland
07-21-12, 10:19 PM
I have some friends that use E85 in their race cars, cheaper than race gas and makes more power. According to them anyway

Submariner409
07-22-12, 09:52 AM
I have some friends that use E85 in their race cars, cheaper than race gas and makes more power. According to them anyway

Thus the FlexFuel system change - you have to burn a lot more alcohol to get the heat output (energy) of gasoline. AA Fuel rails run methanol and nitromethane - but their fuel usage is on the order of a couple of gallons to 1/4 mile............Alcohol carburetors have simply huge jets. If you tear down an alcohol-fueled engine there is NO carbon - it's as clean and shiny as the day it was built.

thebigjimsho
07-29-12, 01:52 AM
Except real flex fuel is 85% ethanol, Less power and MPGE85 gets you about the same hp increase as the loss of MPG...

EcSTSatic
08-01-12, 09:27 AM
E85 gets you about the same hp increase as the loss of MPG...

Granted, E85 has a higher octane rating, but there is less energy in ethanol. Most cars can't appreciate the rise in octane so no real benefits. It will cost you more to drive on flex fuel than gasoline, but you will be doing something for our oil dependency.

thebigjimsho
08-01-12, 10:42 AM
Granted, E85 has a higher octane rating, but there is less energy in ethanol. Most cars can't appreciate the rise in octane so no real benefits. It will cost you more to drive on flex fuel than gasoline, but you will be doing something for our oil dependency.

Dyno numbers don't lie...

EcSTSatic
08-01-12, 11:40 AM
Dyno numbers don't lie...

What numbers? Which cars?

CadillacLuke24
08-01-12, 06:26 PM
I like Gasoline. It's readily available, and it provides decent power numbers.

cadillac kevin
08-01-12, 06:32 PM
I like Gasoline. It's readily available, and it provides decent power numbers.

But your gas has corn and soy in it too. Mmmm...."filler"

MrHolland
08-01-12, 07:26 PM
Its rumored that soy raises estrogen levels,,,,,,,is your car a little bit girlie????

brandondeleo
08-01-12, 07:38 PM
Its rumored that soy raises estrogen levels,,,,,,,is your car a little bit girlie????
No comment. :histeric:

CadillacLuke24
08-01-12, 08:24 PM
But your gas has corn and soy in it too. Mmmm...."filler"

Fiber. Keeps her healthy.



Its rumored that soy raises estrogen levels,,,,,,,is your car a little bit girlie????

I dunno :D

cadillac kevin
08-01-12, 09:30 PM
Its rumored that soy raises estrogen levels,,,,,,,is your car a little bit girlie????

Well, cars are women....

CadillacLuke24
08-01-12, 11:01 PM
Well, cars are women....

BINGO!!! :D She is an elegant lady though. Classy, refined, and elegant. Not some girliemobile like the one VW bug in town with eyelashes and daisy stickers.

thebigjimsho
08-02-12, 01:31 PM
As for numbers, check out a few V threads. There are a few who have switched to E85 and get more hp...

orconn
08-02-12, 01:37 PM
Is it true "alternative fuel" produced from sugar cane is superior to that produced from corn and other vegetable sources? It would be interesting to know if alchol produced from sugar cane is cheaer to produce than that produced from domestically grown corn.

C&C
08-03-12, 05:41 AM
Ethanol is a chemical, how it is derived doesn't matter (though maybe a particular foodstuff or through the cellulotic process may have higher yields).
And while ethanol has a higher octane, unless the vehicle is tuned to use the higher octane, you're not going to get more power (unless the fuel you're using was retarding the timing in the first place; there's still a finite limit on how much timing would be advanced if knock is not detected).

Submariner409
08-03-12, 09:20 AM
Is it true "alternative fuel" produced from sugar cane is superior to that produced from corn and other vegetable sources? It would be interesting to know if alcohol produced from sugar cane is cheaper to produce than that produced from domestically grown corn.

That depends on whether you find rum or bourbon to be superior and whether the sugar cane was squeezed in Jamaica and the corn squeezed in Lynchburg, TN............ethanol is ethanol: "grain alcohol". (Rye whiskey, anyone ??)

Absolutely pure ethanol is about 196 - 198 proof, so do the math to find out what kind of "E40" you're drinking.

Ethanol is an "octane" rating booster because it burns slower than raw gasoline - the higher the octane rating, the slower burning the fuel. That is what allows earlier ignition advance - causing cylinder pressure to build earlier in the power stroke for more, longer power delivery from each cylinder. Remember: the exhaust valve(s) open 30 - 40 degrees before the piston reaches the bottom of the power stroke - as soon as cylinder combustion pressure begins to drop, that's drag - use the dying power pulse to start the gas moving in the exhaust header, use the upward piston exhaust stroke to clear the cylinder, get the spent gas out of there.

The problem with burning higher concentrations of gasoline/ethanol than E10 is that, per unit volume, ethanol produces less heat (less work) than gasoline, so as the "E" number goes up your fuel mileage drops - after concentrations of E12 - E15 injector timing and pulse width have to change to supply more fuel for the same effort..... the change switch for "flex fuel".

ThumperPup
08-03-12, 10:57 AM
i am going to plant a row of corn in my garden and send a letter to Food and beverage agrocultur and say they can pay me for planting corn and being a farmer
or they can pay me a little less to not and dig it up LMAO

im sorry but i miss corn
but i will not eat corn anymore im against it
yeah i support them every time i buy a gallon of fuel it sucks

orconn
08-03-12, 12:51 PM
I guess I didn't state my question clearly, what I was really asking was not whether ethanol produced from sugar cane (or other higher than corn sources of sugar) produced a different or superior grade of ethanol that tat produced from corn. But rather is ethanol produced from sugar cane more cost effective than ethanol produced from corn.

Apparently, using equally efficient growing, processing and production of ethanol from sugar cane is significantly more cost effective than producing ethanol from corn. Using the most advanced methods of production one acre of sugar cane produces approximately twice the amount of ethanol than an acre of corn. The overall environmental impact of producing ethanol from sugar cane is also significant less than the production of ethanol from corn per acre.

While it is relatively well known that American corn production is highly subsidized (both in the growing and in the not growing of corn), it is not well known that high tariffs of $.53 per gallon are charged on imported, significantly lower cost ethanol. The tax on imported ethanol to bring the higher cost of American corn source ethanol into parity with foreign ethanol produced from more cost effective agriculturally grown sources. Obviously this contributes to an artificially high cost of motor fuel in the United States.

If you are for the subsidization of domestic U.S. sources of energy this makes sense, if you are concerned with the cost of motor fuel to the consumer it doesn't make sense.

Ranger
08-03-12, 02:32 PM
Two problems.

1. The U.S. is not in a sugar cane growing climate. What few areas there are than can grow it could never meet supply the demand so it would have to be imported.

2. The corn lobby.

orconn
08-03-12, 04:33 PM
1. There are many areas of the U.S. that are suitable for producing high sugar yield (sugar cane, sugar beets, etc.) crops. Namely the Gulf States and California to name but two areas. Other crops might have to be displaced, so it depends on what crop is more economically productive.

2. BINGO! The corn lobby and its' strangle hold on the U.S. Congress and its' ability to lobby whatever it seems to want!

By the way I really don't care where we get our ethanol, my intent was to point out that at the present time we are sacrificing efficient production at the expense of higher cost fuel prices to try to wean ourselves from foreign petroleum and to improve air quality. We so often hear that high oil prices are at fault when in fact there are other contributing factors.