: Police: “Dodge Chargers are a maintenance nightmare”



Jesda
07-18-12, 06:44 AM
http://www2.newsvirginian.com/news/2011/mar/20/frail-police-fleet-ar-915762/


A News Virginian investigation found the Chargers break down more often and cost the city more money to repair than Crown Vics that are older and which have logged more miles. Charger repairs contribute to maintenance expenses that outpaced anticipated costs in each of the past five years, records show.

The cars roll into the city garage on Essex Avenue so often, that mechanics there said it’s become a joke that they’re so adept with the Charger they should seek dealership jobs.

ShapeShifter
07-18-12, 08:25 AM
Makes me wonder if it’s the effects of operating a so called hi-tech vehicle or possibly how they're being operated?

Submariner409
07-18-12, 08:34 AM
Well, I'll be damned.......... Jesda, About 3 weeks ago, in our local weekly The Bay Times, there was a very similar article on Chargers used by the Queen Anne's County sheriff's department. They use the black ones with all sorts of cute cop stuff hung all over them and they are apparently a mechanical nightmare - and our county is broke, to boot !

cadillac kevin
07-18-12, 08:45 AM
A friend of mine has a hemi charger (08 or 09). He said its a great car when its not in the shop (which is apparently quite often).

ryannel2003
07-18-12, 11:06 AM
It's a Dodge.

/endthread

truckinman
07-18-12, 12:40 PM
It's a Dodge.

/endthread

Took the words right outa my mouth.

Stingroo
07-18-12, 12:42 PM
Welp. There goes my desire for a Magnum. lol


Actually, no, that's because they can't tow, but still.

The Raven
07-18-12, 01:32 PM
So you're telling me a car owned by the government and driven 12 hours a day 7 days a week by a government employee requires an inordinate amount of maintenance and repair?!

NO WAY!

Seriously though, this is where the purpose built Caprice PPV and Carbon PPV would have a distinct advantage, as they are purpose built to withstand the abuse of law enforcement duty, as opposed to retrofit production cars.

Stingroo
07-18-12, 01:41 PM
It also requires a greater amount of maintenance and repair than the car it replaced.

This is the problem.

The Raven
07-18-12, 02:00 PM
It also requires a greater amount of maintenance and repair than the car it replaced.

This is the problem.

My reply to them is: Welcome to high tech automobiles. It's nothing the rest of the world hasn't been dealing with for like 10 years now. What they pay for higher maintenance costs is more than offset by greater fuel efficiency, less time wasted thanks to the car's more up-to-date features, and lower medical plan costs thanks to the improved driver protection features built into the newer cars.

Stingroo
07-18-12, 02:07 PM
Less time wasted due to more up-to-date features on stripper Chargers?

That's a new one. :lol:

Also, according to the EPA, they both get 16 city, and 19 combined. The Charger eeks out 1mpg better on the highway. ALL THE SAVINGS!

rodnok01
07-18-12, 02:12 PM
What they pay for higher maintenance costs is more than offset by greater fuel efficiency, less time wasted thanks to the car's more up-to-date features, and lower medical plan costs thanks to the improved driver protection features built into the newer cars.
While I agree with the less time wasted due to new tech however the older cars can be updated just as cost effiecently, there is little if any proof that medical ins will go down IF the vehicle has supposed improved protection devices. I'll take a crown vic in a tree or rollover accident anyday...
How do you figure they save on fuel, the time they pay the mechanics isn't free you know...
I guess they do save fuel since they're parked being worked on most of the time...

The Raven
07-18-12, 02:29 PM
Less time wasted due to more up-to-date features on stripper Chargers?

That's a new one. :lol:

Also, according to the EPA, they both get 16 city, and 19 combined. The Charger eeks out 1mpg better on the highway. ALL THE SAVINGS!

An old friend of mine works for WatchGuard Digital Video Systems...he sells tech packages for police cars to their respective departments. Not surprisingly, the cars his company gives him are police package vehicles. The first one he had was a Crown Vic, then he got an impala, then an explorer, now a Charger. All were police package vehicles, and he definitely drives like a cop (being from Jersey makes his driving just about as bad as driving gets). He told me that he used to average 11-13mpg in the Vic, and now averages 15-17mpg in the Charger. Both my brother-in-law, who is chief of police not far from where I work, and another friend, who manages the Allentown City Garage, say that those numbers are pretty in-line with what their guys see. In fact, the garage manager went on to point out that the Impalas that allentown uses beat the crap out of both the Charger and Vic, averaging 19-21mpg (despite the fact that the officers HATE them).

CadillacLuke24
07-18-12, 04:20 PM
:bigroll: The government UBERFAILS again. What's new?

They should get some of those cars that are taxis in NYC. Some older car company that's been around forever. Can't think of the name...

Oh yeah. FORD CROWN VICTORIA.

The Crown Vics aren't broke, so Ford should have kept them. Modernization? Put a new engine in it, and retire the antiquated Panther V8. Maybe Coyote's smaller cousin. They should come up with a a 4.0 DI V8, build it like the old 4.6, and lighten the car. BOOM. Done.

That makes too much sense though :helpless:

Kev
07-18-12, 04:55 PM
Oh, for want of the simplicity, reliability and raw performance of the 440 Polara Interceptor .....

:coffee:

Playdrv4me
07-18-12, 05:44 PM
As I mentioned on Facebook, the two vehicles that would most easily solve this problem (and now I understand why many police departments are buying them) are the Tahoe and the Expedition. They are both extremely simple ladder-frame chassis (like the CV) no nonsense RWD vehicles (like the CV) and able to easily take the abuse involved in daily police activities (like the CV). Given the exorbitant maintenance costs in the above linked report, even given the fuel cost differences, there would STILL be a savings with the trucks, and they'd last the departments a hell of a lot longer overall.

Unfortunately, there is a problem of public perception, and most departments just wouldn't be able to get away with the image associated with trucking around all over town in gigantic SUVs for a regular beat in areas without harsh weather or terrain (though plenty of municipalities are still doing it) so unfortunately, they're stuck with these sub-par Chargers, unproven new PPV RWD GMs (which are probably more of the same story as the Charger), or the Impalas. The Impalas haven't been terrible, but they haven't necessarily been great either. I'll tell you what vehicle will most certainly NOT solve this conundrum... a FRIEKEN TAURUS.

The best part is that the individuals footing these repair bills are, you guessed it, you and I.

ben.gators
07-18-12, 06:50 PM
As I mentioned on Facebook, the two vehicles that would most easily solve this problem (and now I understand why many police departments are buying them) are the Tahoe and the Expedition. They are both extremely simple ladder-frame chassis (like the CV) no nonsense RWD vehicles (like the CV) and able to easily take the abuse involved in daily police activities (like the CV). Given the exorbitant maintenance costs in the above linked report, even given the fuel cost differences, there would STILL be a savings with the trucks, and they'd last the departments a hell of a lot longer overall.

Unfortunately, there is a problem of public perception, and most departments just wouldn't be able to get away with the image associated with trucking around all over town in gigantic SUVs for a regular beat in areas without harsh weather or terrain (though plenty of municipalities are still doing it) so unfortunately, they're stuck with these sub-par Chargers, unproven new PPV RWD GMs (which are probably more of the same story as the Charger), or the Impalas. The Impalas haven't been terrible, but they haven't necessarily been great either. I'll tell you what vehicle will most certainly NOT solve this conundrum... a FRIEKEN TAURUS.

The best part is that the individuals footing these repair bills are, you guessed it, you and I.

What about controllability and maneuverability of these trucks?

Playdrv4me
07-18-12, 07:54 PM
How about controllability and maneuverability of these trucks?

For 99 percent of patrol duties there should be no difference. There are always tradeoffs as nothing will perfectly replace the CV.

brandondeleo
07-18-12, 08:18 PM
We have an '09 Charger R/T. Bought it new, and it's got about 20k miles. Never once had a problem. Ever.

ben.gators
07-18-12, 08:59 PM
^
Give it time! :p

Kev
07-18-12, 09:05 PM
They should replace all of them with Chevy Volts. Maybe the Guvmnt will cut em a deal ....

:coffee:

Aron9000
07-18-12, 09:35 PM
Another reason the Tahoe/Expidition haven't caught on is they are A LOT more expensive to buy up front.

I don't know for a fact, but it wouldn't suprise me if insurance on an SUV is A LOT higher than a Crown Vic/Charger due to perceived roll over risks. Plus I can imagine with cops driving those SUV's gas mileage would be around 6-10mpg.

Another area that is a major ding against police SUV's is stuffing unruly perps into the back seat. Its a lot easier to force somebody to sit "down" in a car than make them step "up" a couple of steps into an SUV. Plus when you unload them the perp has the advantage, as he can jump out of the seat and down onto the officer.

EDIT: A lot of the problems with the Chargers are flimsy suspension parts, crappy bushings, and inadequate brakes. Really these wouldn't be THAT big of an issue for Chrysler to get off their butts and design something better. And maybe they have, I don't know the specs on the 2nd gen Chargers now for sale. Stuff like the sloping roof/tight back seat, tank like view, well that's just part of the deal that you are buying a mass market car, it has to be stylish or the public won't buy it.

Jesda
07-18-12, 09:36 PM
So you're telling me a car owned by the government and driven 12 hours a day 7 days a week by a government employee requires an inordinate amount of maintenance and repair?!

NO WAY!

Seriously though, this is where the purpose built Caprice PPV and Carbon PPV would have a distinct advantage, as they are purpose built to withstand the abuse of law enforcement duty, as opposed to retrofit production cars.

I think you've missed the greater point. It isn't just that police cars require more maintenance than civilian cars, it's that one model requires significantly more care than another.

The article has a table showing that Chargers cost nearly double to maintain. There is no evidence that insurance costs have declined or declined enough to offset maintenance costs.


----

Here's an interesting non-model-specific overview of how agencies decide when to purchase or retire police vehicles and how much to spend in the short term versus long term:
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=207695

----

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/crime-courts/2012-05-11/police-agencies-divided-new-car-models

As for fuel efficiency, that's the reason a few departments have passed on the new Caprice.

So far no one locally has chosen the Chevrolet Caprice.
“It’s a great car, but the thing we found when we drove it was mileage was worse. That’s big right now,” State patrol Capt. Keith Canup said.

http://m.chronicle.augusta.com/news/crime-courts/2011-09-14/richmond-county-sheriffs-office-zeroes-new-police-car

Also noteworthy is this statement:
However, “the Chevrolet Tahoe with the pursuit package is being considered a strong contender due to its safety rating, storage area and similar fuel economy to the Crown Victoria,” Capt. Troy Elwell said in an e-mail Wednesday.

drewsdeville
07-18-12, 10:13 PM
This article says little about the cars themselves, but seems to indicate that Waynesboro manages their budget poorly. Repeatedly missing budget by 25% or more FIVE years in a row? Really? Fleet size too small - vehicles being shared, doing double duty? Nice.

But, onto the cars themselves, many of you are forgetting that like most new vehicles, the CV wasn't exactly a masterpiece of reliability when the original 1979 design was introduced. It took 30 years - 3 whole decades of SLOWLY updating cars based on that same 1979 chassis to bring it to where it ended. Hell, were they EVER able to get the front ends to hold up without being touched before 40k miles :lildevil:?

Anyone who expected the LX platform to act as a reliability benchmark right out of the gate is nothing less than a moron.

The second gen was just released with MANY improvements under the skin. On top of that, at least here, local agencies are snatching them up quickly. They couldn't have been too disappointed with the performance (or the bigger municipalities can more easily absorb higher operating costs). Either way, I'm not surprised by the results of the article, and it seems my local agencies aren't either. They're replacing them with newer models.

Initial purchase price is a very large factor that will usually offset minor reliability issues or preferences. This should be obvious when you look at the track record of popular fleet vehicles over the years. Many weren't exactly great, and many great ones never made it big. Municipalities employ a bidding system for their fleet vehicles. Operating costs are what they are - you have some, but no direct control over them. There's no way to accurately predict failures or accidents. However, the municipality usually has a locked predetermined budget for purchasing new vehicles. There are x number of vehicles needed and x dollars to spend. The municipality pitches it's budget and vehicle quantity/requirements to the manufacturers, and the lowest bidder almost always wins. Your local PD does NOT browse the dealer lot or reference the brochure price when looking for a car. As long as Chrysler can continue to both underbid the competition and improve the platform to meet needs, it will succeed regardless of how these little small pop towns fail to manage their budget.

^^^For those that feel the CV never should have died, this is why the CV HAD to go in Ford's eyes. The only sales it had left were fleet - and Ford knew that they'd no longer be able to underbid the competition while still remaining profitable. Sufficiently updating the car would have been more costly than just building new. If the panther didn't die, it would have continued in the red on Ford's balance sheet.

The CV is gone now. Accept it. Comparing the Charger or any other fleet vehicle against it accomplishes exactly nothing. The CV is no longer available, and thus no longer relevant. We've moved on (thank goodness).

brandondeleo
07-18-12, 10:16 PM
^^^For those that feel the CV never should have died, this is why the CV HAD to go in Ford's eyes. The only sales it had left were fleet - and Ford knew that they'd no longer be able to underbid the competition while remaining profitable.
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2009/09/03/11/14/2003_ford_taurus_se-pic-33298.jpeg

creeker
07-18-12, 11:24 PM
[QUOTE=Stingroo;3029752]Welp. There goes my desire for a Magnum. lol


Actually, no, that's because they can't tow, but still.[/QUOTE


After much research I bought my 07 dodge magnum r/t hemi about 8 months ago, the first non caddy car in nearly 20 years, I spend time on the magnum forum
as well, the only major flaw that comes up is the front end suspension, I replaced ball joints in mine (48,000 miles), besides that I am very happy about the car, I
never was a chrysler fan but I like the style of the magnum,I looked for over a year before I found exactly what I wanted,torred red r/t hemi, 20 inch chrome wheels and r/t interior,it's a fun car and I get compliments on it quite often, anyway to each his own.

CadillacLuke24
07-19-12, 12:09 AM
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2009/09/03/11/14/2003_ford_taurus_se-pic-33298.jpeg

Ah yes. The despised Taurus.

brandondeleo
07-19-12, 12:22 AM
I did a review on an '03 recently. I learned a LOT about the things. The Taurus name has a cool history, but a crappy ending... I managed to lose all of the Photobucket pictures somehow, so the review is without pictures...

http://deleob.blogspot.com/2012/03/2003-taurus.html

Jesda
07-19-12, 05:13 AM
^^^For those that feel the CV never should have died, this is why the CV HAD to go in Ford's eyes. The only sales it had left were fleet - and Ford knew that they'd no longer be able to underbid the competition while still remaining profitable. Sufficiently updating the car would have been more costly than just building new. If the panther didn't die, it would have continued in the red on Ford's balance sheet.


Absolutely. A replacement was long, long overdue.

The problem is that the CV's replacements haven't had the years of massaging and refinement. The Charger, Caprice PPV, and Ford's Interceptor are fairly new. The Charger, however, is the oldest of the three, at least to the US market. That leaves the less capable but assumably durable V6 Impala.

In the meantime, it's our tax dollars that make up the difference in cost at a time when police departments and municipalities are struggling to raise revenues.

The Raven
07-19-12, 08:52 AM
There is no evidence that insurance costs have declined or declined enough to offset maintenance costs.

Actually, there is. Unfortunately since I am not in the "need to know" category, I don't have access to actual numbers. Both the police chief and garage manager said this is a big factor that supports the newer cars over the CV.

truckinman
07-19-12, 09:07 AM
They should replace all of them with Chevy Volts. Maybe the Guvmnt will cut em a deal ....

:coffee:

Actually a town not far from my home town bought a Honda accord hybrid to use as a police car. Lol. Said they were giving it a test run and if they liked them and they saved the town money, they'd replace all crown vics and chargers. Lol. Well that was back in 06-7. Last time I drove thru that town a few months ago, I saw brand new chargers. Lol

The-Dullahan
07-19-12, 09:09 AM
Wow. The Charger breaks down more often than a Crown Victoria?

No surprise there.

Jesda
07-19-12, 09:19 AM
Actually, there is. Unfortunately since I am not in the "need to know" category, I don't have access to actual numbers. Both the police chief and garage manager said this is a big factor that supports the newer cars over the CV.

It's not that I don't believe you heard what you did, but numbers would help your case. There has to be some data on the internet that you can share. One would think Chrysler would be eager to use it in its marketing materials.

Aztec ETC ECS
07-19-12, 10:52 AM
From what I've seen personally, the Chargers have more small problems and problems that put the MIL on & the Crown Vics have more disabling problems such as blown transmissions & spark plugs blowing out or breaking off while changing.
Someone mentioned the Taurus. They were both the worst & best cars. The worst for the owner, the best for repair shops.

the recluse
07-19-12, 07:11 PM
I owned two Chrysler's in my life, both had too many problems to list starting with the infamous A604 trans...I put 6 tranny's in 2 vehicles in 4 years...bleh...never heard much of any Chrysler holding together for any length of time...

dkozloski
07-19-12, 07:25 PM
My stepdaughter likes Chryser mini-vans and goes through transmissions like sh!t through a tin horn.

CIWS
07-19-12, 08:32 PM
My stepdaughter likes Chryser mini-vans and goes through transmissions like sh!t through a tin horn.

A well know issue with the Chrysler mini vans. But people keep buying them and other models because they can buy a "lifetime" warranty for it. Not sure what Fiat's plan was in buying them other than using it as an avenue to bring Fiats back into the U.S. and slowly buy up the controlling interest in the company. But Chrysler/Dodge was already suffering sales due to crappy quality and most of their line having bad gas mileage before the government bought them out.

cadillac kevin
07-19-12, 09:30 PM
My stepdaughter likes Chryser mini-vans and goes through transmissions like sh!t through a tin horn.

Don't forget that the vans start burning oil like crazy within 5-8 years.

vincentm
07-19-12, 09:57 PM
Don't forget that the vans start burning oil like crazy within 5-8 years.

Because the lower intake manifold gasket's RTV starts detioriating. I ripped apart mine and will be doing another 3.3 engine soon
http://i49.tinypic.com/14nzinc.jpg

Yea...not my favorite job to do..

Stingroo
07-19-12, 11:01 PM
Well there's your problem. Somebody installed the motor in sideways.

vincentm
07-20-12, 12:16 AM
Well there's your problem. Somebody installed the motor in sideways.

True lol

Submariner409
07-20-12, 11:35 AM
Someone mentioned the Taurus. They were both the worst & best cars. The worst for the owner, the best for repair shops.

???? Karen had a 1991 3.0L GL as a work commuter and it went 126,000 without a problem at ~32 mpg. Her grand daughter still has it and although it looks like a traveling gym locker and McDonald's, it still runs strong - 21 years later. I had a '92 LX 3.8L that went 85,000 with no problem and was privately sold when I bought the STS on 11/05. No Taurus complaints here.

The local State Police use every sort of vehicle from the CV to Expedition to Explorer to F-150 to Suburban to Charger to Boss 302 to farm trucks with a laser filled hay bale stack in the bed. Every color in the rainbow as well as the Maryland olive drab and black CV's.

The Raven
07-20-12, 12:54 PM
???? Karen had a 1991 3.0L GL as a work commuter and it went 126,000 without a problem at ~32 mpg. Her grand daughter still has it and although it looks like a traveling gym locker and McDonald's, it still runs strong - 21 years later. I had a '92 LX 3.8L that went 85,000 with no problem and was privately sold when I bought the STS on 11/05. No Taurus complaints here.

The local State Police use every sort of vehicle from the CV to Expedition to Explorer to F-150 to Suburban to Charger to Boss 302 to farm trucks with a laser filled hay bale stack in the bed. Every color in the rainbow as well as the Maryland olive drab and black CV's.

I think they were referring to the "Jelly Bean" Taurus. The older ones were fairly reliable, despite being poorly put together.

jayoldschool
07-20-12, 01:38 PM
If GM had sold the tooling for the 96 Caprice 9C1, cops would still be driving them today. GM turned down an offer for everything.

truckinman
07-20-12, 01:55 PM
I owned two Chrysler's in my life, both had too many problems to list starting with the infamous A604 trans...I put 6 tranny's in 2 vehicles in 4 years...bleh...never heard much of any Chrysler holding together for any length of time...

Oh god. My parents traded a Toyota camry that they got brand new and put 160k miles on it with the exhaust being the only thing they ever replaced. They traded it for a year old 1994 Chrysler LHS and every summer they had to dump 2500-3k into it in repairs. So a few years later they bought a new Lexus and haven't strayed from the Toyota name since, now with their 2006 Avalon limited.

93DevilleUSMC
07-20-12, 01:56 PM
Like Raven said, now would be a good time for Chevy to really push the Caprice PPV as a reliable alternative.

Aztec ETC ECS
07-20-12, 02:05 PM
???? Karen had a 1991 3.0L GL as a work commuter and it went 126,000 without a problem at ~32 mpg. Her grand daughter still has it and although it looks like a traveling gym locker and McDonald's, it still runs strong - 21 years later. I had a '92 LX 3.8L that went 85,000 with no problem and was privately sold when I bought the STS on 11/05. No Taurus complaints here.
You guys were lucky!

bigm57ict
07-20-12, 02:07 PM
Oh god. My parents traded a Toyota camry that they got brand new and put 160k miles on it with the exhaust being the only thing they ever replaced. They traded it for a year old 1994 Chrysler LHS and every summer they had to dump 2500-3k into it in repairs. So a few years later they bought a new Lexus and haven't strayed from the Toyota name since, now with their 2006 Avalon limited.

Funny you say that. When my wife and I got married, she had a '93 Toyota Camry. We dumped lots a money into it for repairs on a regular basis, included a rebuilt transmission at 70,000 miles. (Toyota is very proud of their parts, by the way $$$).
Traded the Camry for a new Town & Country. That was 11 years ago. Haven't had a major repair yet!

I guess everyone has different experiences.

Aztec ETC ECS
07-20-12, 02:07 PM
I owned two Chrysler's in my life, both had too many problems to list starting with the infamous A604 trans...I put 6 tranny's in 2 vehicles in 4 years...bleh...never heard much of any Chrysler holding together for any length of time...
604's had their problems but the Hemi Charger has a ZF trans.

Submariner409
07-20-12, 02:24 PM
You guys were lucky!

No, we took care of the cars and I did ALL the oil, filter, coolant, brake, fluid, tire work. Same reason I'll never see warning messages for oil, coolant, brake fluid, w/s washer fluid in the car or truck - I do weekly underhood checks. You own a car, YOU do preventive maintenance.
Anyone who ever sees a routine maintenance message under less than serious emergency circumstances has no right to be behind the wheel.:hide: If anyone even remotely believes there is such a thing as a "maintenance free" motor vehicle, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'll sell, cheap.

truckinman
07-20-12, 02:40 PM
Funny you say that. When my wife and I got married, she had a '93 Toyota Camry. We dumped lots a money into it for repairs on a regular basis, included a rebuilt transmission at 70,000 miles. (Toyota is very proud of their parts, by the way $$$).
Traded the Camry for a new Town & Country. That was 11 years ago. Haven't had a major repair yet!

I guess everyone has different experiences.

Lol. Yea that is strange. Like you said prime example of different experiences. I mean my real dad (not the Toyota guy) he bought a jeep wrangler brand new in 86 as the 87 model. I was one year old. Lol. That's why I'm so into jeeps bc he had it for 26 years! Never had a serious issue in the 300k miles he put on it. Granted in 86, the wrangler was still very much AMC and not really chrysler yet. But still. Ive heard so many horror stories about the reliability of jeeps back then. But not from him. And he wasn't exactly kind to it. He used it as a work horse on his farm the last decade of it's life. Pulling down dead trees to cut up for fire wood. Pulling 2 15k lb grain wagons, full, at a tine around his farm in 4wd low. I mean he gave it every reason in the book to crap out on him BUT he was religious about maintenance on it.

the recluse
07-20-12, 08:54 PM
604's had their problems but the Hemi Charger has a ZF trans.

The next generation of fail?!?!?

brandondeleo
07-21-12, 03:42 AM
You guys were lucky!
The Taurus was a damn good car up until the late 90s/early 00s.

Aztec ETC ECS
07-21-12, 10:24 AM
The Taurus was a damn good car up until the late 90s/early 00s.
They were good for paying the shop's bills. I think I've done more AXOD's than 604's.
And the 3.8L blew more HG's than the N*.

drewsdeville
07-21-12, 10:33 AM
^^^ I can attest to both of these.

I think this chassis was pretty solid for a Ford product of the time, but the driveline was atrocious. It included a Ford-familiar sloppy feeling/confused trans which ended up being a ticking timebomb for many, an engine leaking fluids like a sieve, and high fuel consumption for the output.

brandondeleo
07-21-12, 10:34 AM
They were good for paying the shop's bills. I think I've done more AXOD's than 604's.
And the 3.8L blew more HG's than the N*.
I concede... :lol: You're right.

DouglasJRizzo
07-22-12, 07:28 PM
The local PD here went gaga for the Charger at first "oh boy look how fast it goes!". Then came the wrecks, (so much for police academy driver training) and the complaints of no room. Top it with the constant breaking down, and you have the new police motor pool.

The 4.6 Mod motor in the CVPI was reliable and worked well. But Ford didn't put any time into a new full size RWD car. Eventually, time had its way.
I heard the new Taurus PI isn't selling well. Most PD's like RWD not AWD, no matter how fast it goes.
The RWD charger goes fast, but walloping that mopar unit body into a curb or pole, and it's DOA.

Looks like the new Caprice will be the car of choice soon.

drewsdeville
07-22-12, 08:20 PM
Uh...the Caprice is unit construction as well...

Fleet
07-23-12, 03:28 AM
I owned two Chrysler's in my life, both had too many problems to list starting with the infamous A604 trans...I put 6 tranny's in 2 vehicles in 4 years...bleh...never heard much of any Chrysler holding together for any length of time...
That's because there hasn't been real Mopars/Chryslers since the 1970s.

-Fleet
Owner, 1966 Plymouth Fury VIP, 383-4 bbl

brandondeleo
07-23-12, 03:55 AM
That's because there hasn't been real Mopars/Chryslers since the 1970s.

-Fleet
Owner, 1966 Plymouth Fury VIP, 383-4 bbl
BEGIN "last REAL Cadillac" DISCUSSION! :histeric: MUAHAHAHA

Aron9000
07-23-12, 04:01 AM
That's because there hasn't been real Mopars/Chryslers since the 1970s.

-Fleet
Owner, 1966 Plymouth Fury VIP, 383-4 bbl

I hate to say it, but from about 1974ish to 2004, there isn't a single Mopar "car" that I would put in my driveway other than a Viper. The newer Hemi V8 300/Charger/Magnum changed all that, but Chrysler put out GARBAGE for almost 30 years. Some of it was interesting fast, FWD, turbo, hot rod garbage, but still utter crap in terms of what you could buy from Toyota or Honda at the time.

brandondeleo
07-23-12, 04:32 AM
For most of the 80s and 90s, all Cadillac put out was pure garbage, too. (With the exception of the Brougham.) It was a nasty era for the automotive world in general.

Aron9000
07-23-12, 04:41 AM
For most of the 80s and 90s, all Cadillac put out was pure garbage, too. (With the exception of the Brougham.) It was a nasty era for the automotive world in general.

I'd say Cadillac made some extremely stylish and lust-worthy garbage back in the 90's with the Eldorado, Seville, and Deville. A lot more than I can say about the EXTREMELY ugly cab forward garbage Mopar made back then. Really if they didn't have garbage trannies and blowing headgaskets, I'd own a 90's Seville or Eldo.

Jesda
07-23-12, 04:43 AM
I liked Chrysler the most from 1990-2000. They had the most daring designs and a cleverly streamlined product development system.

Probably helped that they had talented guys like Bob Lutz, Tom Stallkamp, and Francois Castaing all working for the same company.

brandondeleo
07-23-12, 05:29 AM
Cab forward is ugly on some of the cars, and it's good looking on others. It depends on the model. Either way, it gave Chrysler the most spacious interiors of all of its competitors.

brandondeleo
07-23-12, 05:31 AM
This is, of course, a subjective argument.

talismandave
07-23-12, 08:19 AM
That's because there hasn't been real Mopars/Chryslers since the 1970s.

-Fleet
Owner, 1966 Plymouth Fury VIP, 383-4 bbl
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p519/davidpraedel/Richland%20Center%20WI/762012494.jpg
Always loved the c-pillar on those old Mopars!

Submariner409
07-23-12, 08:36 AM
This thread is fun, because you can take ANY post and substitute ANY car brand/model/name for any other and the bottom line remains the exact same: In any given manufacturer's line for any given year group in any given model, there are success stories and there are horror stories.

Next year Hyundai will dump enough advertising money into Motor Trend to get the "Car Of The year" award; in 2014 it will be ??? Ford, then Toyota, then something GM.......... and on and on.

But you gotta admit: Chrysler Corp's day in the sun is long, long gone (and from their bad press, it doesn't appear that sunrise is anywhere close).

brandondeleo
07-23-12, 08:46 AM
But you gotta admit: Chrysler Corp's day in the sun is long, long gone (and from their bad press, it doesn't appear that sunrise is anywhere close).
This is true... And it's a shame. They've had some great moments since the 70s, but nothing to pull their name out of the K-flavored dirt.

Jesda
07-24-12, 02:02 AM
Chrysler is on a roll. Jeep is STRONG. The 300 and 200/Avenger are selling well. The only weakness in their lineup over the last few years was the absence of a compact car, a role filled by the new Dodge Dart.

In the meantime, GM has an opportunity with the Caprice PPV.

Playdrv4me
07-24-12, 02:52 AM
I loved a lot Chrysler products in the '80s and '90s... Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, Viper, 300M, GLH-S, Ram, Sebring convertible, and a few others I can't remember.

bigm57ict
07-24-12, 04:25 PM
Don't forget -
I know they are looked down on by most now, but I remember in the '80's when the new minivans were the hottest thing. Chrysler was definitely king in that market. Families everywhere were getting rid of their old station wagon and buying a new Chrysler van.
I remember, in 1988, my parents were looking for a good used one to replace the old family car. There were none to be had. Everyone was hanging on to theirs. They ended up buying a new Plymouth Grand Voyager. Too bad it had that Mitsubishi 3.0 Liter...

orconn
07-24-12, 05:22 PM
This is, of course, a subjective argument.

Thanks for the clarifcation, I thought you were making a statement of universal truth!

brandondeleo
07-24-12, 06:20 PM
Too bad it had that Mitsubishi 3.0 Liter...
That's a popular swap in the 1g Sebring convertible, since the 6G73 Mitsu V6 is pathetic at ~170hp/170tq. It's practically plug and play, just a bored out 2.5L. There aren't exactly many more options than that, since the engine bay is the size of a Neon's. I know a guy who shoved an LH 3.5L into a 2001 Sebring convertible. It's freaking epic. The hood had to be ... heavily ... modified to fit.

cadillac kevin
07-24-12, 08:06 PM
That's a popular swap in the 1g Sebring convertible, since the 6G73 Mitsu V6 is pathetic at ~170hp/170tq. It's practically plug and play, just a bored out 2.5L. There aren't exactly many more options than that, since the engine bay is the size of a Neon's. I know a guy who shoved an LH 3.5L into a 2001 Sebring convertible. It's freaking epic. The hood had to be ... heavily ... modified to fit.

Lets see some pics of the massive hood bulge on a sebring

brandondeleo
07-24-12, 08:16 PM
Lets see some pics of the massive hood bulge on a sebring
Let me find one... Lol.

brandondeleo
07-24-12, 08:42 PM
http://www.tom-viki.com/1C3EL75R62N/engine.html#3pt5liter

brandondeleo
07-24-12, 08:47 PM
I can't find any freaking pictures for some reason. He calls it Frankenvert. It's a GTC, so it's a stick.

http://www.tom-viki.com/spgm/gal/Cars/1C3EL75R62N/s201105230001.jpg

EDIT______________

Oh my god, I just found this out today. Apparently I missed this thread... The car was totaled. Smashed the whole front end.

http://www.cantonrep.com/stark/north_canton/x147943998/Fallen-wires-trap-driver-close-Everhard-at-Main-and-Westfield

Aron9000
07-25-12, 12:43 AM
That's a popular swap in the 1g Sebring convertible, since the 6G73 Mitsu V6 is pathetic at ~170hp/170tq. It's practically plug and play, just a bored out 2.5L. There aren't exactly many more options than that, since the engine bay is the size of a Neon's. I know a guy who shoved an LH 3.5L into a 2001 Sebring convertible. It's freaking epic. The hood had to be ... heavily ... modified to fit.

I thought at first you were talking about a 3.5L from a LHS/New Yorker/300M, and I was thinking WTF??? Since the engine in those cars sits north/south and the Sebring faces east west, I thought that guy had really gone off the deep end with that swap.

And I agree with Jesda, Chrylser is building the best stuff they've ever built right now. The new 300/Charger is still the same format as the old models but with a NICE interior, the Grand Cherokee, the Dart, the Dodge Ram trucks are getting great reviews too. Hell they fixed all the "crappy interior" complaints on all their models save maybe one or two for 2012.


Getting back on topic, I heard the Tennessee Highway Patrol is replacing the Crown Vic with the Aussie Caprice. That is a lot of cars, the THP is a huge department since we have LOTS of major interstates in Tennessee(hell I-40 runs for 455 miles in TN).

brandondeleo
07-25-12, 12:48 AM
I was completely mistaken about the LH thing. I wonder why I put that in there... The motor was from a 2007.

brandondeleo
07-25-12, 01:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtTnfFH2Hjc

vincentm
07-25-12, 01:05 PM
For most of the 80s and 90s, all Cadillac put out was pure garbage, too. (With the exception of the Brougham.) It was a nasty era for the automotive world in general.

This coming from an owner of a 90's Deville...

Jesda
07-25-12, 03:30 PM
This coming from an owner of a 90's Deville...

You know his Deville died and left him stranded, right?

cadillac kevin
07-25-12, 04:23 PM
You know his Deville died and left him stranded, right?

Thats what happens when you keep driving after it overheats under the engine blows up

Jesda
07-25-12, 04:31 PM
Thats what happens when you keep driving after it overheats under the engine blows up

Either way, you're stranded.

brandondeleo
07-25-12, 04:48 PM
This coming from an owner of a 90's Deville...
Or a 90s Eldorado? :devil:

brandondeleo
07-25-12, 04:49 PM
Thats what happens when you keep driving after it overheats under the engine blows up
Kind of sucks when you're in the middle of nowhere, doesn't it? When you have no cell reception and you're halfway down the Yakima River Canyon road? (Washington people will know what I'm talking about.) Miles from civilization. The limp home mode did exactly what it was meant to do. Besides, I'm not dumping $5k into a worthless old N* car no matter what the condition.

CadillacLuke24
07-25-12, 07:16 PM
Kind of sucks when you're in the middle of nowhere, doesn't it? When you have no cell reception and you're halfway down the Yakima River Canyon road? (Washington people will know what I'm talking about.) Miles from civilization. The limp home mode did exactly what it was meant to do. Besides, I'm not dumping $5k into a worthless old N* car no matter what the condition.

That's ok, I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't do the same with a steaming pile of Sebring :stirpot:

brandondeleo
07-25-12, 07:33 PM
That's ok, I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't do the same with a steaming pile of Sebring :stirpot:
If my HG were to blow, I'd say screw it and buy either a big body Cadillac or a Regal GS.

CadillacLuke24
07-27-12, 03:07 PM
If my HG were to blow, I'd say screw it and buy either a big body Cadillac or a Regal GS.

:histeric: I dunno, that shirt, it says something :sneaky:

Of course, all of this is pure subjective reasoning too.

brandondeleo
07-28-12, 04:21 AM
:histeric: I dunno, that shirt, it says something :sneaky:

Of course, all of this is pure subjective reasoning too.
I love all of my cars equally. Just like if one of your children happens to be a little less intelligent than the others, you still love them. :lol:

CadillacLuke24
07-28-12, 03:11 PM
I knew there was a reason I liked this Brandon kid... :histeric:

cadillac kevin
07-28-12, 03:51 PM
I love all of my cars equally. Just like if one of your children happens to be a little less intelligent than the others, you still love them. :lol:

So the sebring is the one thats "a little less intelligent"?

the recluse
07-28-12, 06:23 PM
So the sebring is the one thats "a little less intelligent"?

I'm thinking the Sebring would be a little less "reliable"...like the lazy kid that just sits on the couch until you prod it to move...then all it does it give you crap until you buy it something; then still winds up not doing a thing for you....but still, somewhere, you've convinced yourself that it will one day "work"...but alas, it doesn't...it just sits there...in the driveway,er,couch....whining to be feed or cared for...until later in life you finally realized that you have wasted time and effort and spent good money after bad.

In the end, it's 35 years old and nobody wants it, and it's still living in your garage, uh, basement, because you can't just "get rid of it"....

ryannel2003
07-28-12, 06:33 PM
I actually really like Brandon's Sebring. I think it suits him better than the Deville did... and I have to agree if my STS had blown *another* headgasket, I would have junked it.

That's what I'm saying today. Ask me tomorrow and I'll probably tell you I would have fixed it.

Jesda
07-29-12, 12:11 AM
1st gen Sebring = Decent car, nice looks
2nd gen = Shitty car, decent looks
3rd gen = Shitty car, looks like a turd



I always liked the first gen. They're surprisingly stiff for a large topless cruiser and they're quite comfy. All they needed was a smoother V6. Instead, DC ruined the car as time went on.

talismandave
07-29-12, 01:02 AM
So Orconn....where did you end up going for your birthday?

thebigjimsho
07-29-12, 03:06 AM
As for mpg, that can be subjective in police duty. If you're flogging an underpowered car, you're burying the throttle more than in a more powerful one. I'd imagine a V6 PPV would not fare any better than a V8 in police duty, except on doughnut runs...

brandondeleo
07-29-12, 05:02 PM
So the sebring is the one thats "a little less intelligent"?
The '04 Sering was the most reliable, and my '00 convertible has already been more reliable than the DeVille in a relative sense. I'm in about the same amount of money as I was on the DeVille, but I still have a perfectly running car rather than a junked car with a blown h/g. If that's the gauge, the DeVille was a retard. :lol:

Aztec ETC ECS
07-31-12, 05:30 PM
With all this talk about HEMI Cop cars, I had to get me one!

http://welcomemotors.com/GalleryImages/gi_1800-33.jpeg

talismandave
07-31-12, 11:11 PM
Very cool. I actually love the hubcap and, of course, my favorite color!

brandondeleo
07-31-12, 11:55 PM
That's a bad ass interceptor right there!

I'd take that one from your collection!

Aztec ETC ECS
08-01-12, 10:19 AM
Very cool. I actually love the hubcap and, of course, my favorite color!
You get treated with a whole new respect driving one of these too.

Aztec ETC ECS
08-01-12, 10:20 AM
That's a bad ass interceptor right there!

I'd take that one from your collection!
2009, 370HP. There are a few dealers in Chicago that sell these.

M5eater
08-01-12, 11:17 AM
An old friend of mine works for WatchGuard Digital Video Systems...he sells tech packages for police cars to their respective departments. Not surprisingly, the cars his company gives him are police package vehicles. The first one he had was a Crown Vic, then he got an impala, then an explorer, now a Charger. All were police package vehicles, and he definitely drives like a cop (being from Jersey makes his driving just about as bad as driving gets). He told me that he used to average 11-13mpg in the Vic, and now averages 15-17mpg in the Charger. Both my brother-in-law, who is chief of police not far from where I work, and another friend, who manages the Allentown City Garage, say that those numbers are pretty in-line with what their guys see. In fact, the garage manager went on to point out that the Impalas that allentown uses beat the crap out of both the Charger and Vic, averaging 19-21mpg (despite the fact that the officers HATE them).

Yes... EPA guidelines would not tell the story of what a modern powertrain averages versus what it's capable of in perfect conditions. The engines in these newer vehicles have a much better powerband than a 20 year old 2V SOHC V8..

As for the general topic of chargers and unrealibility. I would suspect chrysler's proven track record of trending twoard last place on JD power inital quality and realibility speaks for itself.

That said, mantiance costs will increase with all these vehicles. They cost more to make, are made with more expensive materials and do not have the advantage of 20 years of parts supply chains to rely on.

The government will eventually not be the only one to this party. We as consumers will start to feel the effects with higher insurance premiums as these brand new cars are made with exotic, lighterweight materials and even more integrated powertrains with speciality parts.


Like Raven said, now would be a good time for Chevy to really push the Caprice PPV as a reliable alternative.
More reliable, but it's not bullet proof-- the AFM L76 has problems of it's own, I'm unsure if they've fixed the CA's and TRE's on the G8 rusting to pieces after a few mild winters and collision parts (if they're anything like they were for the G8) will be through the roof. ($1100 fenders..) The 6L80E should be sufficient for their purposes as long as they stick to fluid changes every 50K.

it'll come with a whole different set of problems seeing as it's a completly imported vehicle with no state-side parts chain in a consumer vehicle until the SS arrives, and then we're presuming that's going to be a niche car.


Let's be honest here too.

For a pursuit vehicle, the Crown Victoria could be dusted by any kid in a hot hatch/ sedan these days.

thebigjimsho
08-01-12, 01:39 PM
The Billerica, MA police department just tweeted they're converting their fleet to V8 Chevy PPVs...

M5eater
08-01-12, 02:47 PM
The Billerica, MA police department just tweeted they're converting their fleet to V8 Chevy PPVs...

The norfolk PD has already purchased a few, I had wipped out the cell phone but all I could manage were blurred shots. :banghead:

thebigjimsho
08-01-12, 03:38 PM
Nashua, NH has had some for awhile...

Stingroo
08-01-12, 04:04 PM
Yay for Billerica!

CadillacLuke24
08-01-12, 06:36 PM
The Billerica, MA police department just tweeted they're converting their fleet to V8 Chevy PPVs...

Gawtdamnright!

Stingroo
08-01-12, 06:45 PM
The norfolk PD has already purchased a few, I had wipped out the cell phone but all I could manage were blurred shots. :banghead:

Yeah I've seen those. One of my best friends from college lives in Norfolk and sent me photos of one on the road because he knows how much I like them. lol

M5eater
08-02-12, 08:49 AM
Yeah I've seen those. One of my best friends from college lives in Norfolk and sent me photos of one on the road because he knows how much I like them. lol

Enjoy the car pr0n
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/blmlozz/photo1-5.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz56/blmlozz/photo2-5.jpg

it's like those static channels that just bearly come through with the sound. Enough to excite you, but you still have to fill in the blanks.

thebigjimsho
08-02-12, 01:37 PM
Yay for Billerica!

I bet I crossed paths with your punk kid self at some point. What street did you live on again?

Stingroo
08-02-12, 02:18 PM
Indian Knoll Road, and then Riveredge Road.


lol