: 1964 Corvair Monza - Operation Crustbuster



Lupin
06-30-12, 10:52 PM
Alright, So some of you know that I have been working on something very dangerous. Something unsafe... at any speed. Well, I figured I may as well share my progress with you guys here.

A few months back Stingroo and I were playing Forza motorsport, and an update came out which included the Corvair. I immediately was drawn to the vehicle, and playing with it from the seat of my ultra high-tech prosche simulator box, I fell in love with it. Roo recalls me asking "why do people hate these cars so much?" To which he replied "Ralph Nader." At that point I went offline.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/381377_10151014922085103_720344064_n.jpg

Well, then in real life, literally less than 48 hours later. I showed up with this.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/540394_10151570909465103_1457149171_n.jpg

I found it in Merrit Island, just west of Cocoa beach. Rotting away on the side of the road with a bunch of stickers in the window. "1964 CORVAIR MONZA CONVERTIBLE. NEEDS CARBS CLEANED AND GAS TANK DRAINED." I spoke with the chap who owned it, he had told me it wouldn't crank over. I had brought my go-bag with all kinds of test equipment, enough to make any vehicle within reason start. I show up, and I say "I want to test it." He looked at my blankly, and said "well there's no battery." To which I replied, "I brought a jump box, let me see the key." At that point he hands me a small masterlock padlock key. I look up at him, expecting him to laugh at the joke he just made. He didn't. I said 'this is the key?" "Yes that is the only key the car came with." Much to my surprise, I put it in the ignition, attempted to turn it, and miraculously, it wouldn't do a thing! Because it is not a padlock. It is a car. It was heavily rusted in some parts, great in others. Everything was there. All I had to go on when I got the car was a title and a good feeling, so we negotiated, and I put it on a flatbed and took it home.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/557775_10151570909660103_33838563_n.jpg

First thing I did was break into the car and take the locks out, then take them to an antiquities locksmith. To my great pleasure, all the cylinders matched! One key did everything. Over the next few days I found that the gas tank didn't need to be drained at all! God had taken care of that for me, through the miraculous combined efforts of corrosion and gravity! I sprayed starting fluid (I call it 'special juice') into the intake manifolds, after replacing the battery, turned the key, and it sputtered and twitched. This was a good sign. After patching the tank, and rebuilding the cars' two single barrel carburetors, re-did the fuel lines, and cranked the engine over, with a bit of prayer. It started!!!! Then stopped. I found it would stay alive at high RPM's. So I pull the vacuum advance, and it died immediately. Clearly timing was to blame. I re-timed the engine using the "old fashioned" method (left till it pings, then right a bit.) and the car ran like a top!

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/527866_10151570956035103_2120883311_n.jpg

After that, I went to go take it for a ride. Filled up the brake fluid, let out the clutch, and she carried along fine! Then I... well... hit the brakes. Yeah... After some creative engine braking and swearing and cursing, I got the car back into my driveway. It was pissing brake fluid from all the lines. New brake lines were $200! So I said to myself, "Know what's less than that? A roll of tubing." So I spent my free time the next couple days under the car with a flaring tool and a line bender, and completely re-plumbed it. Bled it, and bam! Brakes. With some more tuning, I had the car going like a scalded cat! I was commuting with the little scamp already, and it was loving every moment of it, and getting 24MPG in the process!

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/156574_10151686541640103_487355686_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/575199_10151733047835103_1869738248_n.jpg

However there are still issues. There is quite a bit of rust on this car. The floor pans are SHOT, and the rockers are on their last legs. This being GM's first unibody car, those are the main structural components of the vehicle, which cause things like the doors being very difficult to close, especially with the convertible top down.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531242_10151570909865103_1695997548_n.jpg

I ordered some new floor panels and other bits, and drove the car over 200 miles to my body guy, who has agreed to take on the body project. (The car was a champ the whole ride, by the way. It did vapor lock after I sat in traffic for a while, though. I was too lazy to insulate fuel lines. Lesson learned.) I am planning on connecting the car's two subframes, making the body much more solid. I expect this to greatly improve handling. As of right now, the car is with my body man, who is doing the welding, patching, and metalwork. This is the latest photo I have of the progress.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/Kar/CarVair/photo.jpg

talismandave
07-01-12, 01:11 AM
Thank's man! I love it. Nadar was a jerk. he could have gone after any rear drive/rear enging car. The only reason the poor Corvair was the victim was the mass production and relative power in the hands of clueless Americans. If Porsche had sold multiple hundreds of thousands, they would have been his target!
Thanks for the thread and keep us updated. Even people who don't love them like me can still enjoy a good "return from the ashes" story.

orconn
07-01-12, 02:10 AM
Nader also didn't want to offend his Volkswagen driving constituency. Let's face it, it was more lucrative for a counter culture, fame seeking young attorney to take on GM and make a name for himself than to tell the truth and indict the "hippies" favorite transport the VW Bug. To have cited the "bug" for evil handling and other "Unsafe at Any Speed" traits would have brought the rath of counter culture adults and children who rallied around him!

CadillacLuke24
07-01-12, 02:19 AM
Not bad. Not bad at all, especially with 24 mpg. Glad you are enjoying the project. :thumbsup:

Lupin
07-01-12, 03:18 AM
From what I read on the subject, records indicate that Nader was approached by lobbyists SPECIFICALLY to attack GM. This was about 1964 when he was approached. Now, the '60-'63 corvair DID have issues with the rear suspension tucking under, but to be honest, you had to be going WAY TOO FAST in a corner for that to happen, but regardless, GM buffed up the suspension in '63 and added a stabilizer bar in '64, so by the time Nader was approached, the problem was gone! Tests performed by the government after Nader's book killed this charming little guy's lineage, indicated it was just as, if not safer, than the European alternatives. It's a real interesting thing to wonder... The Corvair was SUCH a modular vehicle. Trunk space is INCREDIBLE, better than cars twice the size, incredibly modular (how many other cars share architecture with a convertible, saloon, pickup truck, van, station wagon, and RV?) Very efficient, my four speed manual 'vair, on the 200 miles trot to south Florida, actually got 28 highway MPG, and I haven't even finished tuning it! GM's first electric conversion... a Corvair. Second turbocharged vehicle. It's a hotbed of innovation. Then after it was deemed unsafe, what did they call its replacement? The Nova. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Nova, but you can't help but wonder what things would be like today if we had kept developing this formula back in the 60's and 70's.

77CDV
07-01-12, 03:30 AM
Excellent work, Matt. Glad you decided to bring the old girl back from the brink! :thumbsup:

Aron9000
07-01-12, 04:14 AM
I've always had a soft spot for the Corvair. IMO it has to be one of the most radical things GM ever sold, and this coming from a company at the time who liked to play it safe with the mechanicals of their cars.

donwon
07-01-12, 08:46 AM
I always wanted to put one of them engines in a VW.
I still think they are kool cars. The poor mans Porsh.

brandondeleo
07-01-12, 08:49 AM
The Corvair is a pretty sweet looking little car. I always have liked them. Their best quality is their uniqueness, in my opinion. They actually have character. Convertible, too... The only way to go. :D

Lupin
07-01-12, 11:31 AM
I am trying to map out a sound system for the thing. I think I am going to somehow hide a 6" bazooka tube up under the dash. I am not sure if that will be too big, though. I am also going to convert it to a dual pot master cylinder for better brake proportioning. As far as sound goes, I am VERY restricted. I was thinking I may put, up in the of the front corners of the "firewall," some vertically mounted 4x10's (like those in old Saabs) in a bit of MDF. There is also a kit to mount 5" speakers up above the fresh air exhaust of the cabin, but I'm not sure if that would be enough sound for me, with the top down. Right now some PO has mounted patio speakers haphazardly on the firewall, which is charming in its own right.

Here is a pic of the interior of a similar car. If you guys have any ideas, I would love to hear them.

http://blog.al.com/engine-block/2008/08/Corvair%20int.jpg

Submariner409
07-01-12, 11:53 AM
Does this ever bring back memories - I owned 2 Corvairs - a '61 coupe, ordered with the optional 98 hp 4-speed, white on green vinyl. The second was a '64 Spyder turbo coupe, white on red vinyl. I drove the entire Northeast, summer and dead winter, in both cars with few problems and no handling problems - even at the time most Corvair owners thought Nader was a true jackass. You'll remember that the entire line of incredible air cooled rear-engined Porsches sailed right through the whole mess..............

For history, the Spyder was the machine that coined the "turbo muffler" - now synonymous with a low back pressure "performance" muffler.........but the Spyder had no wastegate and no turbo boost limiter (as such). It used a single barrel side draft carburetor with a bore size to limit inlet air flow at redline rpm, and the single (chrome outlet) muffler was designed with an increasing backpressure curve to limit turbo speed at high rpm. Pass that on to your "performance" friends.

Lupin, Just under the radio pod in my '61 I installed an ammeter and oil pressure gauge - the ammeter was a 30 amp unit wired to a shunt at the alternator (alternators were optional - yours has the stock generator), and the oil pressure was a StewartWarner electric unit wired to a sending unit on the rear clip bulkhead - I used a brazed pipe T and flex hydraulic hose to the oil pressure port so I still had the idiot light sending switch and the gauge pressure sender.

EDIT: There is no gear shift on earth that is any slower and sloppier than that 5-foot long setup. It's like driving a bowl of ice cream with a straw stuck in it. I had forgotten about the real hand emergency brake. Several Corvairs had water poured into the oil fill cap............."Lady, you're low on water" says the non-air cooled pump jockey.

Another edit: it's all coming back..........Keep an eye on the generator and idler pulley mounting bolts - they have a tendency to work loose, and then, no air cooling fan. You might hit JC Whitney or some such for a cooling fan center bearing assembly - cheap, but that belt puts a LOT of side load on the fan. I'm waiting for someone to ask "What's the dipstick in the firewall ?"

talismandave
07-01-12, 01:51 PM
My dad had a 64 he drove for 135,000 miles and traded on a 68 Buick Special wagon. The salesman was mad that my dad wouldn't lie about the mileage being over 100,000, then tried to get him to sign a blank title statement. This was the morning he left to trade it.
94083

orconn
07-01-12, 02:11 PM
From what I read on the subject, records indicate that Nader was approached by lobbyists SPECIFICALLY to attack GM. This was about 1964 when he was approached. Now, the '60-'63 corvair DID have issues with the rear suspension tucking under, but to be honest, you had to be going WAY TOO FAST in a corner for that to happen, but regardless, GM buffed up the suspension in '63 and added a stabilizer bar in '64, so by the time Nader was approached, the problem was gone! Tests performed by the government after Nader's book killed this charming little guy's lineage, indicated it was just as, if not safer, than the European alternatives. It's a real interesting thing to wonder... The Corvair was SUCH a modular vehicle. Trunk space is INCREDIBLE, better than cars twice the size, incredibly modular (how many other cars share architecture with a convertible, saloon, pickup truck, van, station wagon, and RV?) Very efficient, my four speed manual 'vair, on the 200 miles trot to south Florida, actually got 28 highway MPG, and I haven't even finished tuning it! GM's first electric conversion... a Corvair. Second turbocharged vehicle. It's a hotbed of innovation. Then after it was deemed unsafe, what did they call its replacement? The Nova. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Nova, but you can't help but wonder what things would be like today if we had kept developing this formula back in the 60's and 70's.

Yes, the Corvair did have an issue with its' rear wheels tucking in and loosing traction while making turns. But so did Volkswagen and, at lest, Mercedes of the same time period. All you have to do is lift the rear of a Volkswagen of that era and watch the rear wheels point in at the bottom. The same thing was true if you you jacked up the rear of a "Ponton" series or later Mercedes. The superior "German Engineering" answer to independent rear suspension left a lot to be desired when it came to vehicle control. In the mid sixties the US Army's new Jeeps also came with the "swing axle" independent rear suspension which was responsible for many a wreck during those years, this series Jeep was quickly phased out in th early seventies.

The above facts are why Nader's attacks on GM and the Corvair were just a publicity seeking ploy to make a career for a young lawyer who was too impatient to make a career in "Big Law." The press was also implicit in aiding and abetting this unjust attack. Even though the problem with the swing axle tip in on the first Corvairs had already been remedied (and the VW continued this design for another 5 years) the press in its' usual manner of ignorance and the ever present editorial impulse to put sensationalism over reality on their front pages. They killed what was, in its final iteration, one of the safer and better handling American cars of the period .... and never mentioned that GM, the British and the Italians had found a much better solution to independent rear suspension in the late fifties and certainly by the mid sixties!

orconn
07-01-12, 02:13 PM
My dad had a 64 he drove for 135,000 miles and traded on a 68 Buick Special wagon. The salesman was mad that my dad wouldn't lie about the mileage being over 100,000, then tried to get him to sign a blank title statement. This was the morning he left to trade it.
94083

A nice Corvair, a handsome young lad, but best of all a beautiful Boxer!

talismandave
07-01-12, 09:22 PM
Here I thought someone would notice the bulk gas tank leaning against the house.(Right under my bedroom window.) Because dad drove so many miles a year he had a jobber deliver to the house. The boxer was our second one. She was 1 1/2 when we got her from a breeder who raised show dogs. She was the least classic boxer (to breed standard) we had. She was either abused or neglected and was afraid of everything, especially men. Wonderful family dog though. She was the one that adopted the four kittens and behaved like their mother.94098
Damn now I'm jacking Lupins thread, I'm gonna get a :negative:

ShapeShifter
07-01-12, 09:31 PM
Nice car and a very challenging project! Kudos for bringing it back from the grave. Look forward to seeing more pics on your progress.

Lupin
07-02-12, 12:32 AM
Actually, Dave I would love your input. Right now we are having a dilemma about what to do with the car, colour wise. We are stuck between these options: black with red interior (as it is now), or white with red interior. Here are some "inspiration" shots.

http://media.motortopia.com/files/14006/vehicle/4c4271eb78c28/1_more_007.jpg
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4752/020mw.jpg

CadillacLuke24
07-02-12, 01:27 AM
Keep it black on red. IMHO, new rims would look nice too.

talismandave
07-02-12, 02:14 AM
Anyone who has read my posts will drop over when I say this...I like the black. I am a huge lover of white cars. They are truly my weakness. On that car, I think the black looks best. With the red interior, that black is "The Hotness"! I don't remember if there is any chrome part from 64 or earlier models that would go on it, if there were, I might lean toward my natural instincts and say white. Extra work, extra cost, I would go black.
I also really like the look of the wheels you have if they can be saved. Maybe sandblast if too bad and paint red and black?
Sort of like the old firebird wheels with the red inside the spokes, where the gold was.

dkozloski
07-02-12, 02:31 AM
I put a 425HP 396 Chevy big block in the back seat of a '66 Corvair. It went like stink.

Aron9000
07-02-12, 03:16 AM
Just for the look, I think black on red is killer. But on a more practical standpoint, white on red would be a lot cooler, a big deal on a non-ac car that might be a semi-daily driver in Florida. Plus if you're getting this done on the cheap, white will hide a lot of flaws in the body work, IMO I wouldn't paint it black unless you are paying a good bit and really trust your body man.

77CDV
07-02-12, 02:44 PM
Black on red FTW.

orconn
07-02-12, 03:02 PM
I'd go with silver gray metallic with the red interior.

cadillac kevin
07-02-12, 03:06 PM
I'd go with silver gray metallic with the red interior.

Hey, you can't pick a different color...thats against the rules.

talismandave
07-02-12, 10:49 PM
Aron brings up a good point. The color might be an issue in the FL sun. I would worry more about the interior color and top color than body on a convertible though. That being said, I like Orconn's Idea about silver. The right shade (little darker, pewter?) with the right amount of metallic and clearcoat and that would be a great look. :confused:
I figure you are going with red interior to save money because your's is salvageable? If so, keep in mind what you would replace it with if and when you have the money/desire/need to.
White? Very cool, and COOL! Then I would go white and red now and you are all set for triple white which would be bangin'!:worship:
Next coolest probably tan? If that would be the choice, white exterior would still work nicely, but I think black would be the hot ticket then!:thumbsup:
....confused enough yet?...I could go on.:bighead:
:rofl:

Lupin
07-03-12, 10:45 AM
Well, looking at sales figures, I've decided to go with black/red/black. Using this car (which is going for quite a high price on ebay) as a sort of template.

http://significantcars.com/cars/1964corvair/010.jpg

I don't think you can disagree, this car looks AWESOME. It does take away some of the Corvair's friendly, charming appearance. But looks much sportier and masculine. That's what sells.

Lupin
07-03-12, 10:46 AM
----

cadillac kevin
07-03-12, 01:04 PM
Well, looking at sales figures, I've decided to go with black/red/black. Using this car (which is going for quite a high price on ebay) as a sort of template.

I don't think you can disagree, this car looks AWESOME. It does take away some of the Corvair's friendly, charming appearance. But looks much sportier and masculine. That's what sells.

Did you buy the car to sell or to enjoy? IMO, painting a car a certain color just because of resale is stupid. Its like remodeling your kitchen then moving right away. You should enjoy your car.
Also, I say paint it turquoise. :)

orconn
07-03-12, 01:15 PM
Black with red interior is fine, just name it "Valdemeyer, the vampire car that never dies!"

brandondeleo
07-03-12, 01:52 PM
I like black and red. :D

talismandave
07-03-12, 09:51 PM
Nobody has put in a vote for orange yet...anyone...???

Stingroo
07-03-12, 10:14 PM
Not with a red interior. 'Tis the only reason MY car isn't orange.

cadillac kevin
07-03-12, 10:21 PM
Not with a red interior. 'Tis the only reason MY car isn't orange.

Cmon Ray, orange is just red with some yellow in it.

CadillacLuke24
07-03-12, 11:07 PM
I sense an interior redesign in the distant future.

Lupin
07-03-12, 11:36 PM
Kevin, everything I own is for sale. I bought the car for myself... to drive around and enjoy with a little for sale sign in the window, so I can enjoy it until someone comes at me with the right amount of money. I absolutely LOVE the turquoise on this car, but it strips it of that essential masculinity that makes most people want to buy a classic car. I would also have to completely change the interior, which I may end up having to do anyway. I will be doing some work on the interior. I will probably fabricate some sort of center console, and Roo and I have quite a few ideas for the sound system.

cadillac kevin
07-03-12, 11:46 PM
Kevin, everything I own is for sale. I bought the car for myself... to drive around and enjoy with a little for sale sign in the window, so I can enjoy it until someone comes at me with the right amount of money. I absolutely LOVE the turquoise on this car, but it strips it of that essential masculinity that makes most people want to buy a classic car. I would also have to completely change the interior, which I may end up having to do anyway. I will be doing some work on the interior. I will probably fabricate some sort of center console, and Roo and I have quite a few ideas for the sound system.
make center console. mount 1 or 2 speakers in each side. mount new stereo in console. sound system problem solved.

Lupin
07-03-12, 11:49 PM
make center console. mount 1 or 2 speakers in each side. mount new stereo in console. sound system problem solved.

Or... Make center console which is slim and will not affect legroom (remember this isn't a Cadillac,) which incorporates new leather shift boot and extends to the trunk wall (front of cabin). Within front portion of "center console," place in 6.5" shallow mount subwoofer in double bandpass enclosure covered in vinyl with small vent, this being invisible. Then, underneath dash, make small brackets for 2 4x10" Saab type speakers for mids/highs, and then place tweets wherever. Amplifiers can be hidden with subwoofer or under dash as well. These are just the ideas Roo and I have been tossing around.

Stingroo
07-04-12, 12:09 AM
That's just how we roll. :thumbsup:

orconn
07-04-12, 12:38 AM
Don't put a center console in it , the flat floor with no tunnel was part of the character of the Corvair!

Lupin
07-04-12, 02:54 AM
The center console I have planned will be minimal at best. Not like a "hump" of a normal center console. I am planning on having it just to the right of the shift lever, only a couple inches high, just enough to put 2 cupholders, and towards the front of the car, hidden would be the subwoofer, mostly tucked beneath the dash, but would be covered in the same vinyl as the console. Trust me I love the flat floor. I'm going to try to make my modifications as minimally intrusive as possible.

Stingroo
07-04-12, 09:40 AM
Indeed...

To SketchUp! Designin' time!

talismandave
07-05-12, 01:11 AM
I absolutely LOVE the turquoise on this car, but it strips it of that essential masculinity that makes most people want to buy a classic car. I would also have to completely change the interior, which I may end up having to do anyway. I will be doing some work on the interior. I will probably fabricate some sort of center console, and Roo and I have quite a few ideas for the sound system.
IDK, have seen lots of pastels do exceedingly well at auctions! It really seems like either extreme is equally valued and desired. the only colors that seem to suffer on non-muscle cars are the neutrals, tans grays and the like. That is why a triple white would do well. Never the same buyers but just as many in either camp. I still would go with black though, less work than color change.

dkozloski
07-05-12, 01:36 AM
At one time there was a factory kit for Corvairs that was some straps that limited rear suspension travel and virtually eliminated the roll-overs. Besides the '66 with the big block in it I also had a turbocharged 62' Corvair Monza Spyder. I broke a rear shock on it and you could barely make it out of the driveway without turning it over. A new shock and the limit strap kit fixed that problem. After insulating the exhaust system and plugging all the exhaust leaks with Caterpillar exhaust system cement, with the right technique, it would actually carry the front wheels for a hundred feet or so on the jump but the shift to second gear was so difficult that you quickly lost any advantage you might have gained. The '65s and later were a completely different animal with fully independent suspension but by that time Nader had done his job and the marque was toast.

talismandave
10-04-12, 11:03 AM
:bump:......:Poke:

Lupin
10-04-12, 11:23 AM
Well, I bought new rocker and floor panels, took it down to my body guy. I didn't realize it wouldn't be my guy DOING the work, he had some novice work on it, and the idiot cut out both at the same time. My car is now bent in the middle. My guy is apologising profusely and promising to re-do it, and he has been for 3 months. When I checked on the car last month, nothing had been done. I am going down there next week. If there aren't any results, I'm having the car flatbedded to another guy who promises results.

The-Dullahan
10-04-12, 02:43 PM
Made a friend out in Kansas with a '63, actually. She did hers a pale gold. I think it looks stately as such. Suits her well. Weird friend to have, as she is very much an auto enthusiast, but I met her through entirely different hobbies. Auto people are always kind of weird.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/lilangel_66071/269587_10150256475104000_576658999_7291343_7843354 _n_zps3d571dff.jpg

There are also two that show up at the weekly classic car show Florida has with these. One (Black with red) is obviously a seasonal resident, as I've only see he and his wife in the summer, I believe the other (All black) is local, because he seems to be there at least once a month during any time I am in Florida with the chance to visit the show. Can't argue with either colour scheme.

Saw a few of them at the Henderson show last month. Lately, I have encountered quite a few Corvair enthusiasts for an apparently still-growing list.

talismandave
10-04-12, 05:09 PM
Lupin, thanks for the up date, sorry it is such bad news. sounds like a real gem you ran into there. Hope someone can sort it out and get you right again.

Dullahan: That light gold is a good look for it, just not the resale color that will grab the eye. Good for a keeper though. She looks a little young to drive it though....for that matter...a little young to be your friend too.:hmm:






....drop the Jolly Ranchers and step away from the swingset sir!:cop:

The-Dullahan
10-04-12, 08:10 PM
That's her daughter. Actually, I think she painted it that colour to match the car her Father drove growing up (which was not a Corvair)

Her daughter is four though, which more than makes her old enough to drive.

Lupin
10-05-12, 01:03 AM
Thanks for the interest Dave, I need any support I can get to keep myself going on this project. Ironically the car hasn't been the biggest supplier of headaches, it's been body guys...

cadillac kevin
10-05-12, 01:17 AM
Thats what you get for cheap body guys...just saying (since you were razzing me on fb about how much my body guy cost)

talismandave
10-05-12, 01:21 AM
I think of you often and hope it all works out for you. Sucks to have an idiot take the wind out of your sails like that. Especially after you had a chance to have a little fun with it. Keep the faith and it will come around for you. That car is just too cool to not get back on the road somehow!

Lupin
10-05-12, 10:09 AM
Thats what you get for cheap body guys...just saying (since you were razzing me on fb about how much my body guy cost)

This isn't my usual body guy... he was the extra cheap one. :canttalk: I get what I pay for I guess, and since we agreed payment upon completion, I guess I received what I paid up front. He's promising up and down that he will have results for me today, I should have some pics from him.


I think of you often and hope it all works out for you. Sucks to have an idiot take the wind out of your sails like that. Especially after you had a chance to have a little fun with it. Keep the faith and it will come around for you. That car is just too cool to not get back on the road somehow!

Thanks a bunch Dave! Whenever I sat in the car I would look at the ash tray, think back to your story, and imagine smoke and ash everywhere! Hahaha. I'm hoping for progress soon. I will update with more information.

brandondeleo
10-06-12, 12:02 PM
Hey, if you can find someone who does more than what you pay for you're golden. Like my ghetto shop down in Crackima that does my stereo/tinting stuff. :lol:

cadillac kevin
10-06-12, 01:15 PM
Hey, if you can find someone who does more than what you pay for you're golden. Like my ghetto shop down in Crackima that does my stereo/tinting stuff. :lol:

That sounds shady as sh!t

brandondeleo
10-06-12, 01:20 PM
That sounds shady as sh!t
Pay cash and shut up. :canttalk:

cadillac kevin
10-06-12, 02:07 PM
Pay cash and shut up. :canttalk:

I'd rather do my own tint and stereo stuff than have ghetto people do it.

Lupin
10-06-12, 02:40 PM
I'd rather do my own tint and stereo stuff than have ghetto people do it.

In my experience I find that ghetto blasters can do tint and stereo crap far cheaper than I would value my own time having to do it, and with decent quality.

brandondeleo
10-06-12, 02:59 PM
In my experience I find that ghetto blasters can do tint and stereo crap far cheaper than I would value my own time having to do it, and with decent quality.
:yeah:
Their work came out impeccably... It always does. That's why I work with them. I sure couldn't do the whole car in an hour and a half like they can either.

77CDV
10-06-12, 03:12 PM
I feel your pain with your Corvair, Matt. It's been two and a half years with my Fleetwood, but the end finally seems to be in sight. And, hey, if your body guy jerks you around, you can alway unleash your ex on his a$$! :lol:

Keep the faith, brother! :thumbsup:

orconn
10-06-12, 03:27 PM
Unfortunately, these kind of mistakes by by ignorant, incompetent body men have been the ruin of many a unibody car. many a Jaguar E-type has been rendered (or should have been rendered) worthless by ignorant car body hackers trying to replace floor panels.

Has the guy offered to pay you for the cost of the car?

CadillacCastle
10-06-12, 08:22 PM
I had a 1965 Corvair convertible and a 1964 Spyder hardtop and several parts cars including a station wagon in the 1980s. I rebuilt the Spyder motor with all new cylinders pistons, cams clutch brakes and had to order the correct turbo heads. The sheetmetal around the engine was a puzzle to put back. I found it in a field when I was working on a drilling rig. My Corvair was the 150 HP and the next year was a 180HP. My car would get to 120 real fast but the brakes were old weak drum brakes and if you were in a sharp curve the front end was too light for the tires to grip. Corvairs also are danderous because the heater uses heat from the exhaust manifolds. Ir the exhaust manifolds leak the exhaust blows out to the inside heater with carbon monoxide. The heater was the most dangerous thing plus the weak brakes and light front end. Other than that they were neat little cars. The 1964 was the last year of the early body style and the first year of the bigger motor. 145 and 165 motors. Clarks Corvair parts had most of the parts I needed.

Lupin
10-07-12, 12:09 AM
Unfortunately, these kind of mistakes by by ignorant, incompetent body men have been the ruin of many a unibody car. many a Jaguar E-type has been rendered (or should have been rendered) worthless by ignorant car body hackers trying to replace floor panels.

Has the guy offered to pay you for the cost of the car?

No, and I know for sure that isn't going to happen. He (the guy who was SUPPOSED to be doing the work,) is promising he'll have it straight. The bend isn't very bad, but it's there. He's from Jamaica, where they would do this sort of crap all the time. He actually told me about many a bent Jaguar E-Type that he straightened out in Jamaica, haha. I don't have that much in it to date, so I'm going to see what he has for me when I go back down there. If he hasn't made any progress still, there is another guy who is confident he can do it. "Where there's a weld, there's a way," I always say.

orconn
10-07-12, 12:15 AM
Are any of these guys going to use a proper jig to make sure it is in correct allignment? I doubt it, theywill probably just try and "eyeball" it and the car will be "crabbing" down the road forever more!

Lupin
10-07-12, 01:23 AM
Are any of these guys going to use a proper jig to make sure it is in correct allignment? I doubt it, theywill probably just try and "eyeball" it and the car will be "crabbing" down the road forever more!

They both claim to have the correct equipment, hence why I have to go down and inspect. This situation makes me feel sick when I think about it too much, I'm just going to wait until I get down there and see for myself.

Lupin
10-18-12, 10:07 AM
I have bad news. After getting the car to my other, (competent) body guy, the consensus is that the car is non-salvagable. There is too much rust and not enough steel to re-weld the entire rockers and floor pan and have a sturdy enough car to be road worthy. I am now faced with the decision of either finding a good solid corvair with no engine from one of the states where cars don't seem to rust, and dropping all my good running gear into it, or dismantling my car and selling the parts. I am in talks with a guy who has a farm with about 20 corvairs, and am seeing what kind of deal we can work out, but I'm not really sure what direction to go in. This whole thing is very saddening, especially because the moron tackwelded my $400 of new steel to the car, I'm going to hope I can cut it back out clean enough to be able to re-use or re-sell those new panels.

What do you guys think? Part it out and walk away? Try to find a new body? Or part it out and find a whole different car?

Submariner409
10-18-12, 10:17 AM
Having owned 3 of these cars from brand new, with that amount of rust damage, my take is "Part it and walk". Bummer. Corvairs are NOT that much of a resto darling - there has to be a '64 Monza or Spyder out there somewhere - for dirt cheap.

cadillac kevin
10-18-12, 10:36 AM
Part it and walk. If you really want one, get one that isn't rusted to sh!t. Won't cost much more and will be alot easier and cheaper to fix up.

talismandave
10-18-12, 11:58 AM
Unless you have something really special in the way of modified part to transfer or recently rebuilt stuff, pull what you can sell easily and sell the rest to the farm. They made so many of those there have to be better ones to put time into! Sorry for your loss:(.

If you are rounding up a group of "like minded enthusiasts" to pay a visit to body guy one for a "motivational/instructional" visit, put me on the list.:bouncer:

Lupin
10-18-12, 12:35 PM
Thanks, Dave. I've been searching Arizona craigslist ads, I see quite a few rust free cars for cheap that I think would be better to put my time into. I've actually sent out a couple emails already. I think I'm going to sell what I can from this car and have the rest go to scrap steel. It will be worth the money to have a rust-free car transported from AZ where I can just resurrect the engine down here than spending bajillions trying to fight car cancer. I definitely have corvair fever though. I loved driving around with the top down in that '64 so much. Myself and a couple others have their eyes open looking for rust free, 4 speed, early model convertibles. My only two requirements for the replacement car: 4 speed, convertible. I'll keep you guys up to date. I'm hoping to find one with no rust, but not running so I can get a bargain.

orconn
10-18-12, 03:08 PM
Actually, unless you are totally enamored with the looks of the first generation Corvair, the second generation Corvairs were much better cars. I remember driving a new '66 Corvair convertible back when they were "new" on the dealer floor and to be honest it was the best handling American car I had ever driven up to that point in time. Certainly better tan the European rear engined cars available at the time! Just as the 911/912 was a leap forward for Porsche, the second generation Corvair was a vastly better car than the first generation. In the 1980's a guy I knew had a high performance version of the second generation Corvair Spyder and it was one great car!

Lupin
10-18-12, 04:31 PM
I am definitely WAY more into the first gen appearance. But if I find a great deal on a late model, whatever. As long as its four on the floor, and a convertible, I'll go for it. I'm not really into this car for the performance... It's the experience of driving it.

talismandave
10-18-12, 05:33 PM
From that standpoint you may even enjoy the old poorer handling car. The newer ones are great looking cars too, but I prefer the original ones. Many more of them made too. More cars more old parts.

Stingroo
10-18-12, 06:05 PM
All about that Corvair wagon.


Someday... *dreams*

CadillacCastle
10-18-12, 10:15 PM
Corvairs will never be worth much. I have owned a few because they were so cheap to buy. They are also very dangerous because of the light front end the understeer of the wheels and if the exhaust manifolds leak the heater will fill the car with carbon monoxide. They are cool little cars but were really dangerous.

talismandave
10-19-12, 12:26 AM
All vintage cars are dangerous compared to modern cars to some extent. The Corvair is no exception, nor is it any worse than most vintage cars. Good information to know so you can make sure the heat exchangers are in good condition. After all any car is dangerous if you don't keep them in proper running order. They will never be very valuable because of the large numbers produce, and because of the infamous ending they suffered by smear campaign from a headline seeking writer with a book to sell. After that lots of people held onto them figuring they would be collectible. The flip side of that is they are cheap to buy and maintain.

77CDV
10-19-12, 12:47 AM
Sorry to hear about that, Matt. Good luck with your hunt in AZ. Lots of good candidates out west here.

cadillac kevin
10-19-12, 11:01 AM
All vintage cars are dangerous compared to modern cars to some extent. The Corvair is no exception, nor is it any worse than most vintage cars. Good information to know so you can make sure the heat exchangers are in good condition. After all any car is dangerous if you don't keep them in proper running order. They will never be very valuable because of the large numbers produce, and because of the infamous ending they suffered by smear campaign from a headline seeking writer with a book to sell. After that lots of people held onto them figuring they would be collectible. The flip side of that is they are cheap to buy and maintain.

Yup
Although, nader wrote his book in 63 or 64, and the corvair lived on until 1969 (and the problem with the rear end suspension he wrote about was corrected in 64). He did kill sales though. I believe they were essentially cut in half each year after his book and the surrounding controversy came out, but I'm sure the introduction of the nova and camaro (small sporty cars that took the corvairs market) also took large bites out of corvair sales.

Lupin
10-19-12, 04:34 PM
I was just offered a zero rust shell for $600, with suspension and other parts. What do you guys think?

cadillac kevin
10-19-12, 04:49 PM
I was just offered a zero rust shell for $600, with suspension and other parts. What do you guys think?

Hmmm....does it have glass and interior too or is it just the metal shell? If you have the rest of the parts and can easily swap your drivetrain across, I guess it wouldn't be too bad if you really want a corvair. Does it have a title?

Lupin
10-19-12, 06:23 PM
It's titled and comes with a back seat, glass, window regulators, and suspension with steering. It has literally nothing else. It was originally a turbo spyder body. I can post some pics when he sends them.

cadillac kevin
10-19-12, 06:44 PM
It's titled and comes with a back seat, glass, window regulators, and suspension with steering. It has literally nothing else. It was originally a turbo spyder body. I can post some pics when he sends them.

As long as you have the rest of the parts, I say go for it. Make sure you post tons of pics if you buy it/ make 1 corvair from 2.

talismandave
10-19-12, 06:47 PM
I think if it is straight and ready to go jump on it. Those cars are stone simple as far as swapping stuff. Simple construction and not a lot of parts! You will still be able to sell the floor pans and a few other parts to make the purchase price on the new one. Even the glass has to be of value to someone. The good thing is being a turbo shell you could always upgrade to that if you want.

Lupin
10-19-12, 06:52 PM
I'm in talks with 2 or 3 guys with low rust shells. I'll post some pics, hopefully you guys can help me come to a decision. Stingroo says he would want to come and make a "corvair thrash weekend" with me, haha.

77CDV
10-19-12, 11:50 PM
If between the two you have all the parts needed to make a whole car, why not? $600 is nothing.

Stingroo
10-19-12, 11:58 PM
Impact gun and parts-hauling wagon on standby.

talismandave
10-20-12, 01:23 AM
Damn I wish I lived closer!

greencadillacmatt
10-20-12, 01:38 AM
Damn I wish I lived closer!

As do I, Dave. That sounds like a fun weekend.

talismandave
10-20-12, 01:54 AM
As do I, Dave. That sounds like a fun weekend.

Hmmm...:hmm:

:bulb:....meet up, split gas and driving, 22 hours down, two days there, 22 hours back?
The Volvo gets 30+ on the highway, sleep on Lupin's floor, cheap long weekend!:bouncy:

Stoneage_Caddy
10-20-12, 07:15 PM
id go over there , but there are restraining orders against me and CTS-Vs ....have a bad habit of dry humping them

Lupin
10-20-12, 10:43 PM
Haha you guys are awesome. If anyone wanted to come help, I would stop by costco and get you guys all the tang and croissants you could handle! Ample floor space available, but is moderated and patrolled by Alex the dog, who would ensure your safety.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/385624_10151483740607942_421635124_n.jpg

Anyway, There are two shells I have been looking at. The first is the one I have been offered for $600. It is a '62 Spyder 4 speed convertible body. He says the only problems are bondo over a patch panel and fender, which he took photos of, and I have uploaded to this album. The advantage of this car is that if I ever wanted to sell it, I could track down a turbo motor and throw it in, and have a potential to make a decent return, as factory turbo spyder cars are rare. Here is a link to the album he sent. He says it incudes an abundance of parts, including a good, painted suspension.
IMAGES:
http://www.majhost.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=269522

The other is a car that has been owned by this guy since 1982. He gave me quite a bit of backstory, hasnt given me a price yet, but this car has seen about 5 accidents and has had a rough ride. It is a '64 Monza 4 speed vert body, and it seems to be low rust with the exception of a gaping rust hole. He says he is emotionally attached to it so I'm not really leaning to this one at all. Here are the photos anyway.

http://s1126.photobucket.com/albums/l614/ihscomputers/White%2064%20vert/

What do you guys think? Mostly looking for opinions on the first one, as the second one scares me a bit.

Stingroo
10-20-12, 10:46 PM
What about me? I don't drink tang OR eat croissants?!

Lupin
10-20-12, 11:01 PM
Actually the second guy posted in his album a ten minute video specifically for me where he goes over the entire car. Very thorough, but also kinda reveals a few issues I don't think I want to deal with.

Stoneage_Caddy
10-20-12, 11:03 PM
image six and nine worry me on the turbo, but it looks like there is still some good meat there to weld to but who knows till all that is sand blasted away

as far as the emotionally attached bucket ....it WILL be unsafe at any speed

cadillac kevin
10-20-12, 11:04 PM
Hmmm...:hmm:

:bulb:....meet up, split gas and driving, 22 hours down, two days there, 22 hours back?
The Volvo gets 30+ on the highway, sleep on Lupin's floor, cheap long weekend!:bouncy:

pick me up on your way to florida :)

Stoneage_Caddy
10-20-12, 11:05 PM
What about me? I don't drink tang OR eat croissants?!

stingroo , tang is the drink that went to the moon! who cares about how it tastes , if it is good enough for neil and buzz , its good enough for me ...helps the "back in the 60s" vibe anyway , well play normal greenbaum "spirit in the sky", drink tang, talk nasa , and possibly work on that 'vair.....

orconn
10-20-12, 11:35 PM
Looks like Alex is your man (dog?) when it comes to advice. A Corgi I presume and well on his way to the title "Esquire."

cadillac kevin
10-20-12, 11:39 PM
I vote for the first corvair

talismandave
10-21-12, 12:45 AM
Haha you guys are awesome. If anyone wanted to come help, I would stop by costco and get you guys all the tang and croissants you could handle! Ample floor space available, but is moderated and patrolled by Alex the dog, who would ensure your safety.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/385624_10151483740607942_421635124_n.jpg

Awww....now I want to come even more! He is a cutie. I wouldn't get any work done with him around. :bouncy:




as far as the emotionally attached bucket ....it WILL be unsafe at any speed
:histeric:


pick me up on your way to florida :)

There we go! A couple of you STL guys could car pool over to Louisville and meet us there. Drop your car in the airport parking and hop in the Volvo.:thumbsup:

Stingroo
10-21-12, 12:48 AM
Cadillac Forums 2013 Florida summer meet: Resurrecting a Corvair.

Lupin
10-21-12, 01:26 AM
Alex the dog understands the confusion surrounding her androgynous name and forgives you for mistaking her for a boy dog.

To me, the first car (turbo) looks wicked solid. I asked him the following questions, and am waiting for a reply.



I would be very interested to see the condition of the suspension. Are the bushings and all that usable or will the suspension need complete going through? Are there any rubbers, fuzzies, seals, etc included? Does it have the convertible top? Also what of the brakes are included? Would it be possible to have this chassis rolling for transport purposes? A real list of what noteworthy stuff is included with the car would be awesome, as I would like to tell you what I do and do not need from it. Also, is there a timeframe you want to have a deal done with me by?

Finally, what is most important, my chief concern is to have a car that is structurally sound. Are there any fibreglass panels on this car? Was the bondo used to cover up a welded steel panel or to fill in a rust hole? Is there ANY rust that is serious enough to be flaky or "crunchy," anywhere on the car?

I need to sell my saab, and I am going to try to sell my el camino before doing this. Basically my two options right now, I am torn between my left and right brain. My left brain is telling me to ditch the corvair thing and buy a 2003+ saab with the GM motor and enjoy great gas milage and swedish reasonability. My right brain is telling me to screw reasonability, re-shell the corvair and drive the poop out of it. Cheaper and more badass.

talismandave
10-21-12, 03:49 AM
My sincere apologies to the young lass. (Thank God I at least called her cute.):lol:

I think that sounds good. That one just looked right. For one example the bad one in every shot I saw things that just looked wrong. When he would shoot down the side of it, the raised body line that circles the car looked like it had been mudded to within an inch of it's life. I also paused on some of the scratches and it looked like it many coats of paint. It was so thick it in one spot looked like flaking fill and glaze, and could be. The turbo looked so straight and flat. If it was worked over, it was done by someone with mad skills. If they do body work on that level, they would probably have done it right.

Unless at some point of the tape his monotone narration put me to sleep and I missed a stack of hundreds in the glove box, I wouldn't take that one if he gave it to me and delivered it free. There weren't even parts to pull and sell.

As to the 03 vs the 64. that is an interesting quandary. While modern cars are much more reliable as the age they are prone to electrical gremlins that can be extremely costly. That is already a decade old. (Swedish parts, I have come to believe, are forged of gold bars and painted argent to not look pretentious.) The older ones have a rep that they run forever. But that was before every single function was interconnected with computers. I would personally say the jury is still out on that one. I don't think I will keep mine much past the warranty based on the bill amounts I have seen so far.
The Corvairs were very reliable in their day, and gave mileage in excess of my Volvo. They are also stone simple. Less stuff, less stuff to go wrong. When it does go wrong you don't need a degree in computer science to repair it yourself. There is a very active community of collectors so parts, I would believe, would be available and reasonable.

Good luck with the decision, see if you can find a Corvair forum or club and bounce it off their experts. We counsel enough like that here. The universe owes you one!

Johnxlrv
10-21-12, 09:18 AM
Agree....1st car. I see both of the original bumpers, which rule out front/rear accidents. Red as the original color, and I agree that some of the additional glass/Crome, gives you the chance to pick the best and sell the rest. With some rust evident, there is bodywork...including removal of some bondo repairs, if the rust was not stopped correctly. Would like to see him hang the doors so that the fit could be seen...

Lupin
10-21-12, 10:10 PM
The corvair got 28mpg on the highway, and the motor was a breeze to work on and I never had any problems finding parts, and if I blow it up, running motors can be had for $200-300. Spyder motors can be had for under a grand. I think I could have it as a daily driver no problem. However no A/C and four wheel drums are not the best thing for Florida traffic. I'm waiting on the response from the '62 guy. Will keep you all posted.

greencadillacmatt
10-21-12, 11:53 PM
There has to be front disk-brake conversion kits for those cars, what with how popular they are. And who needs A/C when you can put the top down? :D

talismandave
10-22-12, 02:48 AM
um....Lupin.....http://www.autopartsobsolete.com/1963-1964-corvair-factory-air-conditioning-unit.html:lildevil:

Lupin
10-22-12, 11:09 AM
um....Lupin.....http://www.autopartsobsolete.com/1963-1964-corvair-factory-air-conditioning-unit.html:lildevil:

But then the more expensive side of that coin is compressor, harmonic balancer, condenser, and laying the plumbing for that stuff! Also, where to put the condenser? Some people put it up in the trunk, but thats a lot of plumbing, and lost trunk space. Others mount it to the deck lid, but that harms engine air extraction... I dunno mang. A/C is scary stuff.

Lupin
10-23-12, 09:57 PM
I had an hour long phone conversation with the guy who owns the shell. All in all it seems like an awesome shell, but he made me realize how much work would have to go into swapping the parts between the cars, and I am thinking about all the linkages, rollers, cables, etc that may not survive the transplant. So, right now, I am deciding between going through witht he re-shell ($600 for shell,) or finding another car, already mostly or completely together. He seems to be an authority on corvairs and tells me I should be able to find a rust free running Monza for under $2500 if I look hard, and work the haggle stick properly. So that's where I am at right now.

CadillacCastle
10-23-12, 10:49 PM
You will be better off restoring a Ford Pinto and trying to get your money back than the Corvair.

Kev
10-23-12, 11:48 PM
If this is a project you have your heart set on, then go for it!
If not, you may want to consider parting out what you have a cutting your losses ...

77CDV
10-24-12, 12:17 AM
If this is a project you have your heart set on, then go for it!
If not, you may want to consider parting out what you have a cutting your losses ...

This. Restoring a car is not a rational exercise. You want rational? Buy a Corolla. You want fun? Restore the Corvair.

Kev
10-24-12, 02:18 AM
I had a landlord who had an interesting collection of Corvairs, various years and models in various stages of decomposition. None of them pristine. I think he may have had 5 or 6, most parked around the property, one or two in garages. I have no idea what his motivation was, he never worked on them to my knowledge. One quirky guy with a bunch of quirky cars!

:coffee:

talismandave
10-24-12, 08:11 AM
This. Restoring a car is not a rational exercise. You want rational? Buy a Corolla. You want fun? Restore the Corvair.

If we all made rational, financial based decisions, we would all be parting out our Cadillacs, not restoring them!:lol:

Lupin
10-24-12, 12:15 PM
Yeah, look at the cars I drive. Do any of them seem very rational? I also got into motorcycle partly for the great gas mileage. However, if you have seen my bikes, they top out at about 40MPG for my 900, and my most recent purchase, the CBX, gets around 25MPG. Compare this to "reasonable" commuting bikes that get 60-70MPG. The corvair is one of those things, like my 900, where I am TRYING to be reasonable, but still do what I love. In all other walks of life, I am a very reasonable businessperson who makes decisions at the margin. However, when it comes to wheeled transport...

The corvair is definitely NOT something I plan on profiting on. My dream with a corvair, honestly, is to have one I can fix up and POR-15 the hell out of, commute with it every day until I eventually cave in to reasonability and buy a 2008+ Saab 9-3 (My most favorite "reasonable" car.) and then maybe one day, if I can keep it in good enough shape, pass it on, as an awesome piece of American history. This car was an example of real American ingenuity that was shot down by nonsense media, and there is no car on the road more charming to drive than a corvair.

orconn
10-24-12, 01:01 PM
The first generation was not an example of American ingenuity, but a rather appealing, if copycat design, of a German upstart that was cutting into the low end of Chevrolet's market. GM must have been aware of the safety problems with the swing axle rear suspension used on German cars since the mid 1930's, but chose to design in the same defect that had made VW's and Mercedes unmanageable under certain driving conditions.

The thing that I could never understand was why US designers would put this stupid rear suspension on military jeeps (briefly) during the Vietnam war, where the dangerousness and inferiority of the design regularly land these Jeeps and their passenger in the ditch when a little rain combined with red clay made the roads slippery!

Lupin
10-24-12, 06:59 PM
The first generation was not an example of American ingenuity, but a rather appealing, if copycat design, of a German upstart that was cutting into the low end of Chevrolet's market. GM must have been aware of the safety problems with the swing axle rear suspension used on German cars since the mid 1930's, but chose to design in the same defect that had made VW's and Mercedes unmanageable under certain driving conditions.

The thing that I could never understand was why US designers would put this stupid rear suspension on military jeeps (briefly) during the Vietnam war, where the dangerousness and inferiority of the design regularly land these Jeeps and their passenger in the ditch when a little rain combined with red clay made the roads slippery!

Taking the baseline from a german concept that was selling well (was a response to the Karmann Ghia,) and making it twice as good, and filling it with innovations, is a PERFECT example of American entrepreneurial ingenuity, in my opinion. Second ever turbocharged production car, made two EV's from Corvairs, they did a lot with the platform. While VW's struggled to make 50 horsepower, the first year corvair had almost 100, and the late model turbo's made 180. They sorted out the swing axle in '64 (another reason I like the '64.) Albeit quite rudimentary a fix (steel bar between axles), it was fixed. I dunno, I just think of it as a real first for America, and a really promising concept. If they hadn't been shot down by nader, GM would have probably continued with the concept. It's really interesting to wonder what would have happened if the officiall successor to the corvair wasn't the Nova.

Lupin
11-02-12, 05:21 PM
Alright. I've been talking to the guy with the corvair farm, regarding his mostly restored '64 Vert. He's saying he's got over $6k in this car, and he would take my car as a trade and is asking $4k for this one along with my car.

http://www.majhost.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=269972

opinions?

talismandave
11-02-12, 06:13 PM
Love the white interior, other than that I guess it would depend on what is under the paint. It strikes me as a 1000-1500 car with about a thousand dollars worth of paint job and about a thousand dollars worth of work to do yet. I have seen a lot of beautifully restored ones go over the block on auction shows and barely clear $6000.00. Unless I am missing something I think that project would be worth about $3000.00 at most.

Things like the rust on hinge in trunk photo #8 would make me wonder what it was when he started to be that rusty up under there!??

Kev
11-02-12, 06:20 PM
Hmm ...
I, personally, would pass on it. Basically, you'd be buying it for $4k plus what ever you've spent on your first car. You have to ask yourself;

1) Is it worth the money plus what you will have to spend to finish the restoration?
2) Are you up to the task?
3) The engine looks like it hasn't been touched, are you willing to rebuild it?
4) What do you estimate the total cost to you will be when it's done? (I'm guessing neighborhood of $10k when all is said and done)

If you can answer an enthusiastic 'Yes' to each of the above, plus any other questions they might conjure, then I think you have your answer!

:coffee:

Lupin
11-02-12, 07:27 PM
Here is what he has said about it. I have spoken at length with him. He was restoring it for himself, but he fell ill and it's hard for him to move around now. He has over 20 corvairs.


Its Dusty - needs carpet and finished up - has NOS parts all over - including the rear taillight housings and lens - complete rubber and weatherstrip replacement (including front windshield) - when painted - any rust was cut out and replaced with original steel panels - engine does run - but will need to be resealed - Rhino Lined trunk and engine compartments - Right at 6000.00 in receipts - can't remember everything that has been done to date and not certain I can actually find all the receipts. on the paint - everything painted to match - inside and out including door jams - inside of car down to the steering wheel and trunk and engine lid interior.

He says all parts are included, and all I have to do is assemble it, and re-seal the engine. The engine doesn't scare me. Corvair engines are both a breeze and a blast to work on. You can see in the photos the new weatherstrips, which are a pretty big deal. He is encouraging me to come and check it out. Dave, your opinion has the most weight. What is your opinion, in light of these new facts?

Stingroo
11-02-12, 07:55 PM
That junkyard one was kinda fun/easy to tear apart....

talismandave
11-03-12, 01:09 AM
I am sorry to all the members for this marathon post.

Now, Lupin...
First, thank you for the compliment, but I am no expert on Corvair values.

Generally, as to buying anyone's restoration project there are general things to keep in mind. The $6000,00 invested sounds nice. However, he could have started with a basket case and that could be why it is such a high amount and still not in beautiful condition. You know what floor board cost, imagine doing both rockers and four fenders. The cost of the NOS parts are high. Does it add any value to your use for the car? Would you be happier with the 4 NOS tail lights than you would with 4 OK looking originals, or 4 from the junkyard? He could have had them plated in gold and he would have 7000.00 in the car, still not worth more to me.
For someone who wants to put it in judged competition it would be wise to use NOS parts, for someone like me who wants a fun nice looking car to drive not really. If you are in love and sure you want to keep the car the rest of your life it is worth it. Otherwise for a fun driver for a few years, you would be better with a solid original with a couple pieces of a road sign welded in the couple of bad spots.

Specifically by photo things that I would question are...

1st pic...rear bumper loks more than just dusty, looks like it is scraped/scratched and dented. Rust on roof frame rail and bad or missing weatherstrip. Also white spots over right inside tail light and right hand side of licence frame on the raised body line. Most look like reflections, those don't. Wire cable sticking up in top compartment left side looks like something gone wrong with top.

2nd pic...Look at passenger foot well, looks like rust in body to floor joint. Also around floor fresh air vent in kick panel.

3rd pic...Can't fault the body lines, they are beautiful.

4th pic...Again the scuff on reised body line above inside tail light,doubt it is reflecting the same spot from a different angle, also front floor board center looks rusty, how bad?

5th pic...Looks fine down the line.

6th pic..Floor looks better than I expected, would still like to scrape/poke it to be sure. Interior looks stunning as the body work and paint. corner above wing window looks pitted and bad.

7th pic...vent window handle, horn ring, and seat side strips look pitted. Feeling better about floor as we get closer pictures. Horn button and window weatherstrip? Come with new?

8th pic...Both top end of windshield trim look bad as does glove box chrome. Floor again looks better with close up.

9th pic...Nothing to fault here. Beautiful body and paint.

10th pic...That rusty hinge still bugs me. Seems like an odd spot.I have had cars rust out from under me and still looked factory fresh on trunk hinge. Otherwise cant see anything wrong, can't see anything period with undercoat?

11th pic...waste of a pic?

12th pic...This one bothers me and makes me question all the body work. I am admittedly a hack body man and have no talent or training....even I would have treated rust inside the air intake/exhaust holes, sanded smooth the area around them, and not painted the hood spring and rubber bumpers. Sloppy and not fitting of the NOS parts and rest of the great paint work.

13th pic...

14th pic...Just the engine. I cant believe you would be doing all that work and not even wipe it down a little. Is the engine the original? Maybe to sell car he swapped in a turd and kept the one he was going to use?

15th pic...If engine is the original it tells a story of the whole car. looks like parked in a field for a long time before resto.

16th pic...Paint flaking off of the drivers side! Why? Bad prep?

17th pic...Again I would like to see a photo of what he started with. How long and how poorly stored is a car to have the engine look like this? More paint flaws around lip of hood.

18th pic...? Don't know why this is here. The sine on his shoes?

So those are the things I see and the questions I have about them. If I could be assured of positive answers (that I believed) to all these concerns, I would be interested personally at no more than $2500.00 trade. That would be if all the parts I pointed out were included if missing or damaged, or turned out to be good when I thought they were bad. You could easily have another 1000-1500 to get it on the road and right. Looking at the engine condition would make me concerned about all of the running gear. If the underside looks like that engine think brakes, lines, bushings, tie rod ends, etc. etc....

I think you could do better finding a good driver quality one or a completed resto that is old and showing a little wear, or one with a bad engine that they don't want to repair. I am just not comfortable with this one, It just "feels" wrong to me.It is free to look, and you may crawl under it and find it is beautiful under it. If that were the case stretch to 3000 if you like it. Or just keep looking.

talismandave
05-11-13, 10:10 PM
:bump::prettyplease:

Lupin
05-11-13, 10:23 PM
Oh Jeez. So much has happened. I will have to upload the photos later. Ray (Stingroo) and I actually wound up driving to North Carolina to check out the red car. It really checked out in person. All the body work was solid and the car looked great. I made a deal on it and arranged for it to be transported. When I got it up on the lift, though. I saw where the good body work stopped. The floor. However, everything else was SUPER solid, fresh work, done by inmates in a North Carolina correctional facility. I have been working with a hostile shop owner that let me use his lift, presumably in exchange for free labour and endless drama. Oh, and the guy who sold me the car lied about pretty much everything on it. I was told I was getting a 110hp 4 speed car. I wound up with a 95hp 3 speed car. I am going to keep the 95hp engine, as they actually develop power a LOT earlier than 110 engines. I sourced a 4 speed trans though.

orconn
05-11-13, 10:28 PM
Lupin's Corvair saga returns! Looking forward to hearing about your progress with your new restoration candidate.

talismandave
05-11-13, 11:01 PM
Glad to hear it is moving along. Can't wait to hear more and see pics.

....sorry about being a pest!:lol:

ROO! Why you no tell me!:tisk:

Stingroo
05-11-13, 11:14 PM
I uh... forgot.

But we did get to flog a virtually unfloggable Kia Optima that weekend.

Hoosier Daddy
05-12-13, 01:55 AM
Thank's man! I love it. Nadar was a jerk. he could have gone after any rear drive/rear enging car. The only reason the poor Corvair was the victim was the mass production and relative power in the hands of clueless Americans.
Yeah Nader was a jerk (still is). I loved it when he opposed repairing pot holes on the interstates because they forced drivers to slow down. But the pre-64 Corvair was significantly less safe than most cars (including early 911s) at the limits of cornering grip if the driver lets off the gas or uses the brakes. I know. I road raced a '62 until it ended up in a tree (not from said affliction). The '60-'63 had a swing axle with no articulation at the outer end. So when the rear of the car raised up, the tire took a sever positive camber. The '64 and 2nd gens kept the tires parallel with the road and were much easier to drive at the limits.

I haven't read the rest of this thread. Do you still have the car? It was risky driving one in the days before self serve. An instructor at my high school had one destroyed when a filling station attendant filled the crank case with water. The oil filler is at the very back of the engine and looked much like a radiator cap. At least enough to fool a rookie attendant.

orconn
05-12-13, 02:21 AM
Ralph Nader's organization once sued my mother and Sunkist Growers for using the name "Ralph" for a large purple dinosaur character that was developed by my mother and the company to be used in a nutrition education program. Eventually the lawsuit was dropped (I wonder why?!) and the dinosaur diud his thing for American school children. Later the same dinosaur, under a new name, became a star of children's day time television.

Ralph Nader chose not to attack Volkswagen and their Beetles for the same dangerous handling characteristics because, let's face it, his supporters, both verbally and financially were VW drivers of both the Bug and the Bus. Nader knew enough not to bite the hand that keeps you in business. Going after big bad GM was far more acceptable and fashionable then just as it is today.

talismandave
05-14-13, 10:28 AM
44 years ago today, the last Corvair rolled off the line! Happy(?) Anniversary!

Lupin
05-14-13, 09:55 PM
Awesome factoid! I'm uploading the images now, and will get to writing up the story of what's happened thus far. Dave! Never a pest. That manual you've sent me has been so much help. You've been more of an inspiration, keep on egging me on, man! I've got enough nay-sayers. A cheerleader is always good.

Stoneage_Caddy
05-14-13, 10:04 PM
my little pickup and my tools may have to take a vaction soon

talismandave
07-02-13, 10:41 AM
Found this today, thought this would be a good thread for it.:thumbsup:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013/07/01/fifty-years-on-1963-chevrolet-corvair-brochure/?refer=news

CadillacLuke24
07-02-13, 05:18 PM
I uh... forgot.

But we did get to flog a virtually unfloggable Kia Optima that weekend.

So THAT was Optima Prime!

talismandave
01-23-14, 02:53 AM
:Poke:...............:bump:
:smilewide:

Hoosier Daddy
01-23-14, 08:42 AM
From what I read on the subject, records indicate that Nader was approached by lobbyists SPECIFICALLY to attack GM. This was about 1964 when he was approached. Now, the '60-'63 corvair DID have issues with the rear suspension tucking under, but to be honest, you had to be going WAY TOO FAST in a corner for that to happen, but regardless, GM buffed up the suspension in '63 and added a stabilizer bar in '64, so by the time Nader was approached, the problem was gone!
Actually, the biggest change for '64 was the addition of a joint at the outside of the rear axles, which gave control over camber during wheel travel. The '60-'63s MY rear wheels stayed perpendicular to the axle so as the car leaned, the outside camber decreased (good to a point) and the inside camber increased in direct proportion to the angle of the axle. This kept more rubber on the road (particularly on the inside) and made the transitions more manageable. It also kept the rear lower in corners since the leverage point ended at the outside joint instead of the outside of the wheel. I won a lot of races in my '62 mostly on dirt roads; the paved roads were trickier because the Gs were higher which meant more lean which meant trickier rear handling.

Lupin
10-27-14, 09:01 PM
Hey, I don't know from where, but I found the motivation to upload the photos and write the story. I hope there's still some interest. Maybe I'm just bored and lonely in Alabama now, bleh.

So, like I told you guys, Ray and I drove to North Carolina and checked out the car. That post is a little ways up. I deliberated and decided to make the deal. $3500 plus my old rust bucket '64. "What a steal!" I thought to myself.

So, this is the day I took delivery. This is the jackass himself, h2oless he goes by on ebay. I'd recommend either avoiding him altogether or taking advantage of whatever ebay policies you can to harass, intimidate, and annoy him. You wouldn't want to buy anything from him anyway as he seems to think everything he owns is made of gold. There are still loads of parts from my black '64 on his page, because, thank God, people tend to be less stupid than I am.

First, we loaded up the old Black '64. Bye bye, old friend. I learned a lot, and you were quite loyal and faithful... I'll miss you!

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121227_151656.jpg

Or.... Maybe I won't. Look at the body lines from where they cut out the rocker panel without bracing the car.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121227_151706_0_.jpg

So here she is, Oh! So GORGEOUS! How could I ever have landed such an amazing deal! Like he said, just rebuild the engine and GO! Oh I cannot WAIT to be vairing around again!

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121227_135031.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121227_135039.jpg

This is amazing! Look at my gorgeous new car, decent interior, wonderful paint, and my dog likes it too! Things could not be better!

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121227_171412.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121227_171457.jpg

orconn
10-27-14, 09:11 PM
Glad to see you back, Lupin! I wondered what had happened to this thread, I hope you will keep us posted on further developments with the Corvair.

Lupin
10-27-14, 09:37 PM
Alright, let's check out that engine motor. Like he said, All I've got to do is pull it out and give it an old freshen-up! At this point I rigged the car's electrical system back up, which surprisingly worked for the most part. A little bit of smoke came through the vents when I first hooked it up. not sure if something died or caught fire, but that's irrelevant now. Let's take a look at that FURIOUS POWERPLANT.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121228_143310.jpg

Oh... yeah. I can handle that, no big deal. A little... crunchier than I thought. I can afford to spend a little more time and money on this motor, though. Just imagine all the money I'm going to save in body work, it's 95% restored after all! "Rhinoliner all in and under the trunk and engine bay!" I mean, it comes with NEW CARPET! and lots of CHROME ITEMS! Also a FULL SET OF DOOR HANDLES AND WINDOW ROLLERS! Valued by that knobhead at.... who even cares what I let him convince me those taiwanese repro window rollers were worth. The point is I was dumb.

Anyway, Let's put her up in the air, let's check out that fleshy underbelly.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121231_164934.jpg

Up we go! Alright, let's see what we're looking at with.... uh...

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121228_134936.jpg

Oh that is... interesting. I wasn't sure some corvairs didn't come with exhaust. Ah, well, that must all be part of that measly 5%. Let's check on to the rest of the... oh....

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121231_123619.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121231_123629.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121231_123709.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121231_123720.jpg

----------

At this point I had started to feel the pit of my stomach drop. Hard. I was feeling incredibly overwhelmed and this was day one. I called dickface and he didn't answer. I didn't even know where to start. I just stood under the car looking at the rust, the powerpak (something seemed off about it,) the brake lines (pretty much nonexistant) and the brakes themselves, which I confirmed to be ALL ORIGINAL... NOT what I bargained for.... Here's the rears.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121231_112302.jpg

My stomach couldn't handle anymore. I headed home. Went to sleep praying this could somehow be explained or rectified the next day... he sold it to me as "95% restored," after all, and he claimed to be a man of his word.

I called him up the next day, sending him the pictures. Asking him what the deal was. He said "Oh wow I thought it was all done under there, I had no idea." I ask if there is something he can do, maybe I could send the car up there to go back to that prison he somehow gets the bodywork for the cost of materials at. Then he started saying "you know that engine on your corvair leaked all the way back up to North Carolina, and..." and started to complain that he didn't feel the amount of spare parts I included with the black car reflected our bargain. So I asked why THIS car only included 75% of the new equipment he SAID it came with (only had one headlight bucket and bezel, etc.) At which point he started spitting out garbage half-legal terms, like "exchange of properties are complete," and whatever crap like that.

I hung up the phone, incredibly upset, and punched the underside of the car, as I was standing under it. At that point, a big glob of garbage fell off the transmission. To add insult to injury, that big glob of whatever it was, was the extra hump four speed transmissions have. Only this wasn't a four speed transmission. It was a non-synchro three speed with a pound of shit on it. I then checked the numbers on the block. 95 HP low compression engine. I had been thoroughly screwed.

talismandave
10-28-14, 01:50 AM
Dude....great to have you back.
Sorry to hear the screwing you got. Can't wait to hear the rest of the story. I am praying for a happy ending.

77CDV
10-28-14, 03:04 AM
Geez, Matt, I know how you feel. :(

Lupin
10-29-14, 03:30 PM
So, there I was, facing another complete restoration, staring at the underside of a low compression, three speed base model rattlebox full of holes, whose "replaced floors" were just galvanized plates RIVETED in. I felt so sick, but I decided to just get going. I was using the shop of a "family friend" who owed my family a bit of money for real estate services he couldn't pay for. He had told me not to worry, that I could make use of his shop and lifts, and "fix up" the car.

So, I did the first thing I thought logical. Ordered the right transmission, and pulled the motor.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130223_113902.jpg
(From left in this image: "Pablo," shop owner's socially retarded high school dropout son. Huge father-son drama they tried to bring me into. "Sean," a 'old school' mechanic my mother referred me to, as I wasn't living in the area at the time. I hired him to help me out. Apparently, in west palm beach 'olc school mechanic' means somethng different. I don't remember the guy in the background's name, but he was pretty cool.)

Almost immediately thereafter, I started catching crap from the owner, "Julio." Mostly just "why did you buy this piece of garbage." or, more accurately "Wafor u bai dis peesa chit mang? It a reuininin ma chop!"

I mostly ignored him, but quelled his weird cleanliness concerns. Everything had to be SURGICAL.


Aside:It is a friggin' mechanic shop, but I guess that doesn't make much of a difference when the only vehicles that come in are my car, and his personal friends he would rip off by charging a cheap labour rate (often with me doing the work for free,) and then charging him 200~400% of DEALER cost for the parts. One lady came in needing for shocks on her Mercedes. She "only" paid $3~400 for labour, but she had herself four grand in vested in a few hundred dollars worth of shocks.

The crunchiness of the suspension terrified me, so I decided that had to go as well. I rigged up a dolly for the car to sit on that would allow it to be wheeled around the shop, which was a HUGE shop by the way, there were ample locations inside the shop the car could be wheeled to and be completely out of the way. I talked to Julio about this and he agreed, so, I yank the suspension, put it in my truck.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130425_130659.jpg

Kad4Life
10-29-14, 07:23 PM
Wow .
Greater love hath no man .
I've been following this saga; my first car was a Corvair .

Or is it Fools Rush In ??? ;)

Stingroo
10-29-14, 07:52 PM
That truck looks suspiciously familiar.

dkozloski
10-29-14, 08:15 PM
I had a '66 Corvair Monza with a 425HP 396 in the back seat. It would really go and handled as well. A poor mans mid-engine rocket.

Lupin
10-30-14, 11:15 AM
Also, before leaving; I somewhat pre-maturely decided to upgrade the master cylinder. Corvairs all originally had single pot master cylinders, with 50/50 brake distribution. I went ahead and installed a first generation F-body master cylinder, which gives more modern twin pots, as well are more closer to "proper" brake proportioning.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130103_171143.jpg

Lupin
10-30-14, 01:58 PM
So, dollying up the car after having pulled the motor and suspension, I carted the engine (leaving out a part of the story where I entrusted the engine to some other drunk who changed the transmission and clutch without changing the throwout bearing) and the suspension back to Orlando where I was living at the time to sort them out, with the plan of bringing them back and stuffing them in the car.

I worked out a deal with a gentleman who did sandblasting out behind some trailers in a part of town I didn't know existed.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130429_145909.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130429_145923.jpg

Unfortunately, exactly at the point I left for Orlando, I started getting calls from Julio to "get my peesa chit out his shop." I thought this was quite peculiar timing as I had just made the car completely immovable. I pleaded with him to no avail, but he at least agreed to keep the car inside or under a cover. That's not what actually happened, though. I got calls a couple weeks later from the friendly receptionist saying I should probably send a new cover for the car, as it "keeps getting blown off in the wind." So yeah, my car was now sitting outside in a lot, with no cover, no convertible top, etc, sitting out in the south florida weather. I had to figure something out, and fast. I made a deal with the receptionist to put a new cover on it and secure it, and I started to scramble to figure something out.

In the mean time, the suspension parts were powdercoated and given a rough cobbling together.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130513_115434.jpg

A few weeks before, I was helping a friend sell the 289 out of his '57 Chevrolet, and two guys showed up in a truck to pick up the engine. They looked like a couple of morons at first bluff, but when they came to look at the engine, and knew all the correct casting numbers and marking off the top of their heads, they seemed to really know their stuff. They saw the rolling '57 in his garage and begged him to let them do the bodywork on it, that they really wanted to get it back on the road. I told them about my Corvair, and they encouraged me to come check their shop out in Titusville, about an hour away from Orlando and four hours from where the car was.

Being that I was now desperate, I went to their shop. It wasn't easy on the eyes, but these were some real straightforward and honest guys, and the first real good vibe I had gotten since starting the project. I headed down south with a truckfull of suspension and a rough idea of a plan.

I get to the shop with the suspension. I had spoken to Julio before about the plan, that I was bringing the suspension so I could load up the car and tow it away. He said that there would be no problem, but that he couldn't guarantee that there would be a jack available, that "it might be busy." I said okay, and headed down. I knew they wouldn't be busy, as they maybe got a customer per week.

I show up with my buddy go around to the bays, and guess what... they're all filled. With is personal cars. He just put one of his cars on and under each lift, just sitting there. I ask him what's going on, and he says "oh we're working on them." So I try and level with him, I say "look, you call me twice a week begging me to take the car away, now I'm here to take the car away and you're trying to keep me from doing it, what's your end here?" He just stared at me blankly. So, I went around back, grabbed a floor jack and some 4x4's, and we go out, in the rain, to lay under the car and rough install the front and rear suspensions. After about three hours of wet and sweaty needless toil, we got it together.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/487254_10152868248790103_1090488521_n.jpg?oh=3ccee f23d43b9fc676cf51f22fc69527&oe=54E176CA&__gda__=1420709830_4e3646036faafcbabbfe0b337f6141c 6

Lupin
11-09-14, 06:05 PM
So, I get the car all ready to be towed. I tell the shop owner I will be back within a week to get the car out of his hair. We agree on the day and time, and all is well. I go back home and call in some favors. A buddy of mine worked at superchips at the time, and he mentioned having some test vehicles and large trailers that they use to test their diesel tunes. I get him to clear it with his boss, and we have a brand new F250 power stroke at our disposal. The tune this thing was running was pretty crucial. Let me tell you, it moved. Especially considering the sheer size of the trailer we brought.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/965419_10152892344920103_497508211_o.jpg

I throw a few of my tools in the bed, and we head on down. On the way down, I called the owner. No answer. Friggin' great. This is exactly what I needed. I call his son, no answer. The other worker in the shop, finally get hold of him. Pretty much the owner was trying to screw with me. Was trying to figure out when I would be there so he could make sure the side gate was locked up and I'd have to stay in town overnight. Just because he's a charmer. I finally get hold of the owner and try to level with him, saying "Look, you want the car gone so bad, I'm 45 minutes away, just leave the gate open." "Oh I dunno mang. You know its not so safe down here. Maybe your car not be there when you get here, you know?"

I reminded him it was an empty, fifty year old chassis of a car that hasn't been popular in almost as long. It's not an EK Honda Civic, it definitely isn't a priority target amongst car thieves. He keeps stammering and stuttering, and I just say. "Look, you can leave the gate open or not. One way or the other, I'm taking the car tonight, like we agreed." He finally concedes and agrees to leave it open, and leaves the padlock with my car so I can lock it when I got there.

Of course I was expecting this kind of crap from him. Hence the large pair of bolt cutters in the bed of the truck. We finally get there, was surprised I didn't have to use it. We went in the side, loaded up the car on our own, and headed straight for Titusville, where we would drop the car at the shop of those men I mentioned before, which they affectionately dubbed "the little shop of horrors."

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/981632_10152893030995103_216208891_o.jpg

I will say, that tune Superchips put on that 250 was pretty damn crucial. There was a time we pulled off the road to check the straps, and then he floored it to put us back on the road. I think that might have been the fastest that little car will ever accelerate.

----------

So, we dropped it at the shop in Titusville. I returned a few days alter after they had a chance to look over the car a bit more. We worked out some preliminary numbers, and he made it very clear that rust was a personal enemy of his, and that I wouldn't have to worry about it. This pleased me. I really liked this guy. Name was Tito. He and I are still good friends. He put the car up on a body stand and left me with the suspension so that I could completely rebuild that myself.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130612_121850.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130612_121844.jpg
(You can see in this image the car sitting on what would be its home for many, many months; as well as the suspensions waiting for me to pick them up in front of it. Tito makes a cameo in the back as well.)

Being that the body was now in his hands, I went back home to start my end of the deal. The suspension and engine.

The suspension was a hell of an ordeal. I ordered a full set of wear items from "Lon Wall" of Corvair underground. Shortly thereafter, speaking to some other corvair enthusiasts, they laughed and wished me luck. Apparently Lon Wall was about eight hundred years old at this point, and it was a crap shoot whether he would send you your parts at all, and if he did, whether they would fit. Of course, it took me months of calling twice a week to get the components in. When I did, lo and behold, about 25% of the parts were for a late model Corvair. I found some of this out when the shop I had contracted to press in the bushings attempted to do so, even though they were way oversize, ruining my freshly powder-coated A-Arms, not to mention the $100 bushings. Luckily, another corvair had found its way into a scrapyard near me.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130702_160448.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/1053335_10152973315500103_542190324_o.jpg
(Very interesting trunk pan.)

Yanked the A-arms from that car, as well as some other parts. Got everything pressed on in the right order, and vowed never to deal with this type of garbage again. Went ahead and bought my own press, too.

Because I didn't take any photos of the motor before I started tearing into it, here is a good representation.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20121228_173706.jpg

This is the beginning of one of those stories of "while I'm in here..." At first, I was just going to change out the heads for some of the higher compression ones I found at the junkyard. Then, I realized that the cams were different, of course. Contemplating whether I wanted to split the cases or just leave it a low-comp motor, I start researching what's available for the Corvair. In any case, I got it on my stand, and yanked the heads and jugs.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130613_144856.jpg

77CDV
11-12-14, 11:49 PM
I'm looking forward to the next installment in this saga!

talismandave
11-13-14, 12:34 AM
When my dad bought his 64 Monza new he had it in the shop constantly for rough running and they could not fix it. They had everything checked and rechecked and could not get it to idle smoothly.

Then GM came out with a service bulletin that certain cars had gotten the Corsa cam instead of the correct one. He took it in for them to change it. A day or two later he stopped at the dealer to see how it was going and found the mechanic sitting in the middle of an empty bay, with his engine split open and laid out on the floor. He came home and told mom they would have to trade it in when it came back because it would never be right after being so tore up.

Came back and ran like a champ, kept it for 148,000 miles and still was running like a new car. He missed that car to the day he died, he loved it so much. Your photo jogged loose a good memory.

Hoosier Daddy
11-13-14, 07:10 AM
I'm looking forward to the next installment in this saga!
Me too.

I couldn't tell from the pics, but wouldn't be surprised if the jerk sold it with a pre '64 rear swing axle setup.

rodnok01
11-13-14, 11:20 AM
It is looking better... you have way more patience than I as I would have went looking for the people screwing you over with a stick...

Now you know why no one touches my cars, been there done that, it hurts...

Lupin
11-14-14, 03:10 AM
Hoosier, that's the one thing that wasn't misrepresented about this car. It is, in fact, a '64. You can see the transverse spring in the bed of the truck if you look closely. I would be incredibly sore if it had a pre-64 powerpak, as that would cause a LOT of compatibility issues. The '64 powerpak uses a late model block, allowing me to use the upgraded '65 Corsa transmission, among other valuable considerations.

Getting the motor to the place I had, and getting to look into the jugs and such, I started think about how I might be wasting a tear down in my *not* going further. I did have those nice high compression heads after all; and they would need a lumpier cam to be worthwhile... those jugs do look like they could be a little bigger... I found a deal on some "like new" forged .030 over pistons and a "just more than mild" cam. Oh hell, screw it. Full rebuild it is.

Getting the pistons/rods out was a unique challenge. The rods have to be installed after the motor is together, so that obviates pulling a complete rotating assy. You have to carefully work your way in, around, and all over the crank to loosen up the rod nuts, and pull each piston out its respective hole.

Anyhow, after stripping the motor, I got it up on the bench, and got to work "splitting" it. This was my first time "splitting" a boxer motor, and it sure is an interesting experience.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130716_203028.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/976310_10153023237535103_607202776_o.jpg

There are eight bolts holding the case together, one on either side of each main. They consist of a long bolt and a nut & lock washer on the opposite end. The only threaded hole keeping the block together is the one that holds the oil pickup guide on, which I missed, and caused me a bit of confusion when trying to split the cases. Below is the result of splitting

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130718_000703.jpg

Here you can see my crank and a very tired looking 95hp cam and gear. Very interesting thing about Corvair cams is that two valves share a common lobe, as you can see with the three "fat middle" cam lobes. Thus, there are 12 valves, but 9 lobes on the cam.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130718_000600.jpg

The man selling the engine parts had the ebay name "starrcooke" and he specialized in Corvair engines. I wanted a full matching rebuild. TRW is the "old school" company that used to make the best hop-up parts for Corvairs in the 60's. I scored the TRW forged pistons from starr, a set of TRW lifters from another vender, a full set of stiffer dual rate TRW valve springs from yet another Corvair vendor who happened to be going out of business.

However, of course, there was a problem here. The part number didn't line up or something like that with one of the items Starr had listed. So, I decided to call him and get more info, and maybe he could help me out. The first surprise was finding out his name was actually "Starr." I told him I was rebuilding my motor, and what direction I was going in. We chatted for a minute, and when we got around to discussing the pistons, he kept talking about the price "with cylinders," I finally interrupt him and told him I would just bore my cylinders over here. He then asked if I would be taking them to a "corvair specific machine shop." I didn't know how to respond to this, as I am pretty sure that doesn't actually exist. When I said "uh... no." This launched him into a twenty minute tyraid about how nobody knows how to work on Corvair motors (which are markedly similar to VW motors, by the way), that if I didn't visit a "Corvair machinist" that my engine would become "a piece of shit." and he didn't want to sell parts if it wasn't going to a "Clarks Corvair approved mechanic." I explained that I understood how Corvair cylinders needed to be bored, and that I felt they could be bored just like a VW jug. He then went into another tyraid about the fact that there are "thousands of competent VW mechanics" but "Corvair mechanics... there are so few of us surviving... and we're all gonna die soon! WE'RE DYING. WE'RE ALL GONNA BE DEAD SOON."

I don't know if I could make this story up if I tried. He then began shouting "I AM A CORVAIR ENGINE BUILDER! I AM NOT HERE TO SELL PARTS! I DO NOT WANT TO SELL PARTS! I AM THE ONLY PERSON CLARKS APPROVED TO INSTALL OIL PUMPS. I AM THE ONLY PERSON CLARKS APPROVED TO BORE CYLINDERS" I then told him he was the only one with the parts I needed, and that I really wanted a matching set of internals. He responded by telling me I gave him "Very bad vibrations," and went on to say "Corvairs attract people that don't have money. I think you want to do the work yourself to save money, and I don't think you're going to be happy, and I don't want to be involved." He then hung up on me.

Feeling very weird, I called up my "corvair advisor," Marty Katz, and told him what was going on. He knew immediately who I was talking about, and just said "yeah, Starr is a bit... He has a certain way of doing things."

So, I collect my thoughts, and call Starr back, and somehow I convince him to sell me the parts. I managed this with a flood of compliments and admiration of "his work," and that I wanted to do "learn from such a great Corvair mechanic."

That settled, the only TRW part I was missing was piston rings, which looking high and low for, I couldn't find.

Of course, I call up my old friend Marty, who had given me such great advice all along, and asked him about it. He told me the TRW rings had been out of production since the 70's, but that he happened to buy an inventory of them at swap meet in the 90's. He had two boxes of moly filled TRW rings that he was saving for his personal cars, and he offered me a set without me even having to ask. (They came at quite a price, of course, but I still thought that kind of him.)

The cam was another story. There are two "cam camps" in the Corvair motor world. Iskenderian and Otto. "Isky" is still around today, and is a very well known cam manufacturer across platforms. Iskenderian cams are equal intake/exhaust duration cams. They're good cams, but the fact is Corvairs are significantly more restricted on the exhaust side, which lends itself to longer durations. "Otto" cams are split duration, with longer exhaust duration grinds. They were available in OT-10 (slightly more aggressive than stock) OT-20 (street/track "mild lope") all the way up to OT-50 "full race." I became fascinated with these Otto camshafts and, of course, Otto parts had long since faded into obscurity. However, "starr" had contracted Schneider to copy the OT-20 cam, posting the grind sheets with each one he listed (Mine is IN: .460/.270 EX: .470/.284). They were listed as "new," though I suspected they were regrinds. Being priced just over an Isky cam at $155, I jumped at it.

My "go faster than slow" parts came in all at once, and boy what an exciting bunch of boxes to get!

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/976061_10153052133440103_313623528_o.jpg

cadillac kevin
11-14-14, 12:42 PM
Wow.... And I thought caddy people were weird! (not you guys, but I have met some... Ummm..."Odd"... people in person.)

I did not know performance parts were made by TRW for the corvair (although that makes sense since they created some of the factory top end parts).

Stingroo
11-14-14, 01:38 PM
I remember the story of Starr. That was glorious.

talismandave
11-14-14, 03:10 PM
The way you got them parts out of dude, I see a future for you in politics!

CadillacLuke24
11-15-14, 01:22 AM
Nice job keeping after it Lupin. Glad to see your restoration is starting to roll in your favor :thumbsup:

Lupin
11-15-14, 12:49 PM
You say that, Luke... But I must diverge from the Starr war to go to other good news. I decided to ride my motorcycle to Titusville so I could check on the progress on the body. I was quite pleased with the progress to that point. They had cut out the garbage, blasted and cleaned the underside, and coated it in POR-15. They were in the process of fitting panels where needed and putting duraglass where not.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130626_122526.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130626_122511.jpg

Here is the area under the back seat. Although it looked pretty compromised at first, the metal was really quite sturdy. They chose to use duraglass under and over the section instead of more cutting/welding.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130626_124558.jpg

They showed me all the stuff they had cut out of the car. It was a bit jarring to see just how bad some of it was.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130712_180705.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130626_123338.jpg

I agreed to soon return and grab the interior to have it reupholstered. I was going to take the heater hardware too and blast/clean it, but the body guy agreed to take care of that too, at no extra charge. The heater box wasn't looking too handsome, although it was completely intact. Maybe because mice had clearly taken up residence, perhaps their upkeep was beneficial? Who knows. Unfortunately, there was not all good news. They had spotted some rust bubbling up under the paint, and asked what I wanted them to do. I said I didn't want to deal with any of that later on, so whatever they say, to sand it down and take care of it. There goes one of the last plus sides of the original bargain that landed me this car.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130626_123833.jpg

I know I mentioned it briefly earlier, but after finding out the car was a three speed, I started making phone calls through my little corvair book in search of a compatible four speed transmission. I managed to find a friendly man who had his out of his '65 Corsa and willing to part with it at a very fair price. Legend has it the Corsa gearboxes are tougher, but who cares, I just want four synchronized gears. Corvair transmissions are interesting as the differential actually goes in between the motor and the transmission. thus, the output and input shafts are on the same side. The input shaft is a long solid steel core surrounded by a shorter, hollow output shaft.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130808_143636.jpg

Now... back to our engine drama. I started to inspect the parts I had gotten. The TRW forged pistons were used and advertised as "like new." I inspected them, and four of the six definitely satisfied that claim. I took issue with three of them, though. The first of which had very clearly eaten a valve before being pulled. It had a huge half-moon gash right on the face of the piston, about 3mm deep. I didn't like that at all. I'm not sure why I didn't take a photo of that piston, but it was almost comically damaged.

The second problematic piston had the strangest erosion I had ever seen. The face had wear along the top edge on one side. It was really visible, and I thought this one would have compression issues.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130725_171322.jpg

The third problematic piston was actually a beautiful piston. Complete and without a scratch. However it was not for the right engine. It was a 1960 piston.

With a big gulp, I called up Starr to discuss this. Much to my satisfaction, he was very understanding and apologetic. I sent him the pistons, and he fired back with three more fairly nice pistons, two of which I couldn't tell had ever been used. I was satisfied with the pistons at this point. There was a reason I went with the TRW forged pistons, they were famous for durability in Corvairs making way more power than mine ever would.

CadillacLuke24
11-19-14, 09:45 PM
Keep after it! With this kind of tenacity it will be back and better than ever!!

talismandave
11-20-14, 01:56 AM
Rock on Matt! I'm loving every twist and turn of this resto.:highfive:

Wish you could have missed out on some of the drama of it all, but am glad to see you loving the Corvair enough to see it through. Before I was known as a "Cadillac guy" I was all about Corvair and VW. That is another one of those that will eventually end up in my garage, should stumble upon the right one.

Lupin
11-23-14, 02:31 PM
Another interesting side-part of the story. If you remember earlier I mentioned the shop screwing up my A-arms and I went to the junkyard and pulled another set. Well, these are those guys.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20130923_095140.jpg

A quick spin cycle and wow! Look how they turned out!

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20131007_103109.jpg

Joking, of course. When I first posted that picture on facebook a bunch of my friends thought I actually intended to run the arms through the wash so I posted that follow up.

The problem was I had all my parts blasted and powdercoated already at no small expense. The powdercoating place I used was a large scale operation and had a somewhat restrictive minimum order. I heard through the grapevine that one of the local mustang guys did powder coating out of his garage. Desperate, I went with him. I blasted the A-arms myself in my garage and took them over to him. I was REALLY impressed. Look at the quality of his coating (front) vs. the professionals (rear.) At a much lower cost, to boot. I began to wish I had just brought them to him in the first place. Unfortunately my $100 poly bushings were a loss, and I wasn't about to shell out another hundred bucks for a new set. I settled on stock style reproductions.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/XLupin/misccrap/SagaDeVair/20131008_140436.jpg

So, with all the engine parts finally together, I headed down to my local machine shop, who did a lot of VW work and I knew wouldn't have a problem working with cylinder jugs. The piston set I had bought was .030 over, but I never think it's a good idea to tell the machine shop that. I just said "Match these holes to these pistons, and press them onto the rods. I also had the block cleaned and checked for straightness, the crank fluxed and micropolished.

Also, since the Corvair uses the actual block as a bearing surface for the camshaft, I had those "races" coated with an anti-friction coating to work against heat and wear.

Another interesting thing is that in '64 they stopped putting drain plugs on the transmission and diff. This makes fluid changes a bit annoying as the fluid has to be pumped out of an access port. The bosses are still on both castings, though. So I had the machine shop poke and tap holes for two drain plugs as well.

talismandave
11-24-14, 02:54 AM
I read an interesting article in Kit Car Magazine or Kit Car Illustrated about powder coating yourself. All you need is an old oven and supplies from Eastwood Automotive.

Always thought it would be handy to learn but put it on the "Bucket List"!