: New radiator in... 1.5 days later water pump fail



supapuff3
06-26-12, 12:44 PM
I just replaced my radiator the other day with one an alradco and was finally leak free for a day and a half. Then I started to hemorrhage fluid... the was no longer a slow simple leak from a rad but there was coolant everywhere. After checking all of the hoses for cracks and not finding a bad one we broke out a borescope and put it under the tstat as that where we thought it was leaking from... after letting it run and not seeing a drip... right around the time the temp got to the tstat opening temp, "off in the distance", a stream of coolant starts gushing out from the water pump. Now my questions for you guys are 1) is it possible it's just the gasket or is this an internal bearing or seal on the pump that went bad? 2) is it possible that this new and improved rad was just too much for my car and shocked the system and found its weak point being the pump? If so what other points should be check? 3) On other vehicles they suggest changing the timing chain when changing a water pump, does that hold true for us as well?

I should have taken a video of the borescope screen because it was pretty impressive going from nothing to gushing right when we were about to give up looking. I appreciate any input you guys have. Thanks.

RADEoN
06-26-12, 01:34 PM
well, if you're changing the water pump, you're not going to have to remove the timing cover, which would include pulling the crank pulley off. if you're going to do that, you might as well throw a cam in while you're in there, oh and oil pump.

i've actually heard of bad head gaskets causing extra pressure to go through the cooling system, popping radiators, and gaskets. Since your alradco is apparently pretty durable, looks like it may have found the next weakest link. this is purely speculation btw, not saying you have a bad head gasket, but it's a weird coincidence for it to pop 2 cooling related things in such a short time.

darkman
06-26-12, 01:43 PM
If it is but leaking at the weep hole located in area of the housing around the rotating shaft, that is the signature of a failed water pump - more specifically it means the internal seal between the water cavity and the shaft bearing has failed.

It is not uncommon to have a water fail after replacing the radiator.

As far as I know the stock timing chain is not failure prone if the valvetrain (primarily the valve springs) is stock.

Skidmarcx
06-26-12, 03:20 PM
Sounds like the shaft seal blew out... It can gush out the weep hole pretty good. I've seen many weird things happen after a repair like this. As soon as you drained the system and relieved the pressure the seal decided it was time to leak. And with regards to the timing chain it sounds like advice for changing a timing belt during this procedure... As that is a wearable maintenance item

FuzzyLogic
06-26-12, 03:53 PM
As far as I know the stock timing chain is not failure prone if the valvetrain (primarily the valve springs) is stock.

I'm planning on installing a Comp TRuTorq L3 cam (223/236 .612/.610 115LSA) and keeping my stock timing chain unless someone tells me otherwise. Springs are Comp 26926 (http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/NP2010/PDF/12.pdf) with 129 lb seat load and 470 lb open load. It will be properly shimmed.

darkman
06-26-12, 04:18 PM
I'm planning on installing a Comp TRuTorq L3 cam (223/236 .612/.610 115LSA) and keeping my stock timing chain unless someone tells me otherwise. Springs are Comp 26926 (http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/NP2010/PDF/12.pdf) with 129 lb seat load and 470 lb open load. It will be properly shimmed.

As we have discussed before, i would not run that much open spring pressure with the stock rockers. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/256400-just-bought-heads-cam-lots-goodies.html#post2921526 (On an LS6, I also would at least upgrade the timing chain to the oem LS2 timing chain.)

FuzzyLogic
06-26-12, 04:38 PM
As we have discussed before, i would not that much open spring pressure with the stock rockers. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/256400-just-bought-heads-cam-lots-goodies.html#post2921526 (On an LS6, I also would at least upgrade the timing chain to the oem LS2 timing chain.)

Considering how much money I've put into this engine, another $200 probably couldn't hurt. Do you think buying and installing the following while doing the cam upgrade would prevent the rocker wear / trunion grenading problem? I've heard the same thing about the timing chain. Definitely upgrade if you have a LS6, optional with the LS2.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-13702-KIT/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SME-143000/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SME-143005/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SME-906011/

RADEoN
06-26-12, 04:44 PM
the first kit is all you need, you can get the kit to install if you want, you'll also need the ring pliers to attach the locking rings.

when your timing cover is off, you should put an ls2 timing chain on. you can also get the tensioner from summit for around 20 bucks from trick flow that bolts right under the cam gear, if you do not already have it.

FuzzyLogic
06-26-12, 04:55 PM
the first kit is all you need, you can get the kit to install if you want, you'll also need the ring pliers to attach the locking rings.

when your timing cover is off, you should put an ls2 timing chain on. you can also get the tensioner from summit for around 20 bucks from trick flow that bolts right under the cam gear, if you do not already have it.

I have a LS2 CTS-V with 24k miles. Why would I need a new timing chain?

Also, did you see the last link I put up? Don't I need those tools to install the trunnion upgrade kit?

Bigtuna819
06-26-12, 04:58 PM
glad im not alone here. Replaced my stock cracked radiator with alradco and 2 weeks later my waterpump fails. Just received my new pump in the mail today from rockauto... along the lines of what else to replace while im in there... mines an 04 with 66k mi... belts? thermostat? etc?

darkman
06-26-12, 06:20 PM
The parts listed (Post #7) address the tendency of the oem rockers to lose their needle bearings, but does nothing to address the spring pressure issue.

The problem with the 470 pounds of open spring presssure is that is places too much force on too small an area, specifically the rocker tip interface with the top of the valve. The excess pressure can destroy the tips of the valves and/or cause the rocker to break.

The oem rocker is quite strong and is well designed, but its original design contemplates lifts below 0.550" and open spring pressures at or below 300 pounds. The oem rocker is reasonably reliable with lifts up to 0.600" and open spring pressures of 400-410 pounds (which is also the limit of Yella Terra's popular rockers).

The "fix" is to use cam lobes with ramp rates that permit a stable valvetrain with 400 pound springs. Alternatively, if a cam really requires 470 pounds of open spring pressure to control it, then it also needs expensive, shaft-mounted roller rockers (Jesel Sportsman or Comp 1500) and very rigid pushrods to handle the spring pressure.

I wonder if that particular camshaft actually "needs" 470 pounds of open spring pressure.

FuzzyLogic
06-26-12, 07:20 PM
The parts listed (Post #7) address the tendency of the oem rockers to lose their needle bearings, but does nothing to address the spring pressure issue.

The problem with the 470 pounds of open spring presssure is that is places too much force on too small an area, specifically the rocker tip interface with the top of the valve. The excess pressure can destroy the tips of the valves and/or cause the rocker to break.

The oem rocker is quite strong and is well designed, but its original design contemplates lifts below 0.550" and open spring pressures at or below 300 pounds. The oem rocker is reasonably reliable with lifts up to 0.600" and open spring pressures of 400-410 pounds (which also the limit of Yella Terra's popular rockers).

The "fix" is to use cam lobes with ramp rates that permit a stable valvetrain with 400 pound springs. Alternatively, if a cam really requires 470 pounds of open spring pressure to control it, then it also needs expensive, shaft-mounted roller rockers (Jesel Sportsman or Comp 1500) and very rigid pushrods to handle the spring pressure.

I wonder if that particular camshaft actually "needs" 470 pounds of open spring pressure.

I left a message for Shane. Again. I wonder if I should drop down to 7.400" pushrods and add hardened lash caps. Some people don't like them because they add weight and may fly off. To be honest, I didn't think that this was a very aggressive cam. Fingers crossed that I get this right. So far, I've succeeded with every single installation on this car (two years ago, I only knew how to change the oil in cars), but this particular one is by far the most difficult.

darkman
06-26-12, 07:34 PM
I left a message for Shane. Again. I wonder if I should drop down to 7.400" pushrods and add hardened lash caps. Some people don't like them because they add weight and may fly off. To be honest, I didn't think that this was a very aggressive cam. Fingers crossed that I get this right. So far, I've succeeded with every single installation on this car (two years ago, I only knew how to change the oil in cars), but this particular one is by far the most difficult.

I am not familar with hardened lash caps.

The whole design of that cam, in terms of the durations, lift, and lsa appears to be street oriented. While the lobes are undoubtedly more aggressive than oem I don't see why the designer would choose wildly aggressive lobes in that application but then again I am no cam guru.

FuzzyLogic
06-26-12, 07:44 PM
I am not familar with hardened lash caps.

The whole design of that cam, in terms of the durations, lift, and lsa appears to be street oriented. While the lobes are undoubtedly more aggressive than oem I don't see why the designer would choose wildly aggressive lobes in that application but then again I am no cam guru.

The other thing I'm mildly worried about is the timing chain. It's a cheap part, but apparently it's incredibly difficult to replace because the oil pump on the CTS-V is a PITA to remove.

darkman
06-26-12, 08:00 PM
The other thing I'm mildly worried about is the timing chain. It's a cheap part, but apparently it's incredibly difficult to replace because the oil pump on the CTS-V is a PITA to remove.

The LS2 looks pretty beefy compared to the LS6 and LS1 chains.

I had a shop do my cam to (among other things) avoid the risk associated with the oil pump swap, which requires dropping the oil pan. Dealers and regular shops charge a bundle for dropping the oil pan, but speed shops seem to have developed short-cuts that keep the cost more reasonable.

howanicm
06-27-12, 03:07 AM
I had a similar issue only thing is my water pump went first so i pulled the whole radiator/fan to change it then the radiator went out. In the time being i think the water from my seeping pump dripped enough water on the crank pulley to make it start wobbeling pretty bad so i changed that out along with the radiator. All is well now at the moment. Another word of advice is u can run a zo6 water pump. It does have a bigger pulley but it will fit. Should save u a couple hundo

lollygagger8
06-28-12, 09:06 AM
The LS2 looks pretty beefy compared to the LS6 and LS1 chains.

I had a shop do my cam to (among other things) avoid the risk associated with the oil pump swap, which requires dropping the oil pan. Dealers and regular shops charge a bundle for dropping the oil pan, but speed shops seem to have developed short-cuts that keep the cost more reasonable.

So should I just replace my timing chain and leave the stock oil pump when I do this cam/heads swap? I only have 30k on the engine.....

darkman
06-28-12, 09:33 AM
So should I just replace my timing chain and leave the stock oil pump when I do this cam/heads swap? I only have 30k on the engine.....

I would at least get the LS2 chain - it is not expensive (about $45). I have the Katech/IWIS chain (Thunder Racing about $170) which I believe is about the best single row chain available.

I do not think your existing oil pump will fail, but I have and like the Meliing 10296 high volume pump. Not only does it provide more oil throughput at high rpm, it also improves internal engine cooling during low rpm operation (stop and go traffic). Maryland Speed carries these for around $140.