: Anyone have an Ultrabook?



JimmyH
06-22-12, 07:04 PM
I really want to get one.

No, I don't want a tablet. I require a real keyboard and mouse. I thought about a Transformer, but I would rather have a 13/14" screen.

Yes, I really like the MacBook Air, but no, I am not going to buy one. I can't justify the price premium when I know I am just going to end up installing windows on it anyway.

So I guess I am just looking for impressions from people who own them. I was gonna go to notebookreview, but those guys are too geeky even for me. It's impossible to start a thread there without getting into a flame war with each manufacturer's fanboys.

Oh, and it has to offer mobile broadband built in. That's what I have been unable to find. Does it exist? I am not tethering my phone, and I already have an AT&T sim card that my company pays for.

ben.gators
06-22-12, 07:43 PM
Wait for Microsoft surface. It will come with a practical keyboard.

MotownPimp
06-22-12, 08:08 PM
Signing up for responses. I'm in the market for a new laptop & as light weight as possible....15" for me. Good topic, Jimmy! :D

JimmyH
06-22-12, 09:57 PM
when you say practical keyboard...?

I want an actual keyboard with mechanical keys. I don't want an onscreen keyboard or touchpad keyboard.

MotownPimp
06-22-12, 10:03 PM
Amen Brother

The Raven
06-22-12, 10:05 PM
Asus Zenbook...all you need to know.

Thing puts the Macbook Air to shame, and costs less to boot.

The Samsung looks good too, though I don't have any personal experience with it, Samsung has been hitting home run after home run in the mobile sector lately, so I'd be inclined to say their offering is a good bet.

Jesda
06-22-12, 10:08 PM
A tablet with a keyboard like Surface (unless you get the Pro version) runs Metro apps and has a membrane keyboard.
Asus Transformer's keyboard/touchpad setup is a bit flawed, mostly because of Android.



Then there's the Macbook Air. Sony's answer to that is the Vaio Z, a pretty slick piece of hardware.


I'd choose a Thinkpad for the keyboard alone. They have some ultralight models.

The Raven
06-22-12, 10:11 PM
Then there's the Macbook Air. Sony's answer to that is the Vaio Z, a pretty slick piece of hardware.

Not to mention it can actually do stuff...which gives it an automatic advantage over the Air. :rofl:

JimmyH
06-22-12, 10:16 PM
I am leaning towards the thinkpad. I have to find out if it offers a mobile broadband option though.

JimmyH
06-22-12, 10:17 PM
Asus Transformer's keyboard/touchpad setup is a bit flawed, mostly because of Android.

I have also read that using an external mouse results in a great deal of lag. I can't live with that at all.

Jesda
06-22-12, 10:29 PM
Not to mention it can actually do stuff...which gives it an automatic advantage over the Air. :rofl:

They do the same things for me. I post on the interwebs, edit videos, watch TV/movies, run my small business, and use Excel. Heck, both of them can run Windows. The main difference is in look, feel, and power management.



I like my Mac for home use and my Thinkpad for the road. I've been using that exact combination of computers since 1996.

talismandave
06-22-12, 11:25 PM
I was gonna go to notebookreview, but those guys are too geeky even for me. It's impossible to start a thread there without getting into a flame war with each manufacturer's fanboys.

You must not have read the cell phone thread here yet.:confused:

drewsdeville
06-23-12, 12:13 AM
This question is too generic. What makes you think you need an ultrabook? If your only requirements are a mechanical keyboard and a 13/14" screen, you could get anything between a $400 laptop and a $2000 Mac Air.

What do you plan on using it for? Do you require optical storage? HD type/size? What's the maximum battery life you'd need? What applications do you use most (this is important, this dictates what OS you need). Do you require Windows?

I personally have a 14" laptop, media center/server desktop, Asus Transformer Prime tablet w/ dock - I don't understand the place for an ultrabook besides for those who work on the road and need the absolute best balance of portability and compatibility. If you don't travel every day and this thing is going to spend most of it's time 5ft from your living room wall, drained of only 20% of it's battery life at a time, and rarely slung over your shoulder, it's a waste.

Playdrv4me
06-23-12, 12:16 AM
Asus Zenbook... All you need to know...

All you need to know is to avoid the CURRENT Zenbook. ASUS builds a good product, but these were definitely a 1.0 effort. The screen has backlight bleed and poor viewing angles, ALL of the guys who reviewed it on Rev3 and TWiT hated the overly sensitive touchpad (as did I during my brief hands on time with it) even after the software updates, it gets really hot near the exhaust port, it has NO backlit keyboard option (that's a major one for me), and the price isn't even all that attractive. Now... The NEW Ivy Bridge Zenbook which literally showed up for sale like... 2 days ago... improves the display (finally) with the continuing trend of higher pixel density at 1920x1080 and it is IPS to boot. Outside of this and the (finally) added backlit KB however, I am not excited about it based on the previous effort.

It's tough right now to make good recommendations because we're right in the middle of the changeover to Ivy Bridge architecture from Sandy Bridge. But this means all the Sandy Bridge stuff will get cheap. For things that actually have Mobile Broadband as an option, I'd recommend the Lenovo X1 (now being replaced the by the awesome X1 Carbon) and the Toshiba Portege Z830/Z835 which is also being replaced by the Z935. The Portege in particular can be a real bargain and comes with everything including Bluetooth, Intel Wireless Display, Backlit keyboard, and SSDs. Unfortunately, the mobile broadband requirement takes a lot of good stuff out of the running (Samsung Series 9, Dell XPS 13 etc). Another relative bargain is the "retiring" Thinkpad X220. This was an Ultrabook before the term was even coined. Very solid construction, IPS display available, mobile broadband, very very small (in general dimensions, not just thin-ness for the sake of being snazzy) and highly reliable. They're getting cleared out for X230. These do not have a backlit keyboard, but generally make up for it.

MotownPimp
06-23-12, 02:05 AM
Yo drew, different folks need different strokes. Your last line above fits me almost exactly. Mine will get used, maybe, three to six times in a year while on vacation or a (infrequent) biz trip. But, I run a developement biz where in having a computer with me could (and has) mean a seven figure delta if in the middle of negociating or closing a deal. When I need to see a document, it usually needs to be seen NOW. That said, I'm tired of lugging around the lead weight Dell I've used for years. I want the lightest weight RELIABLE laptop out there. And cost doesn't count much; whatever it is, it will not raise to even petty cash in a biz setting relative to benefit. Though, by nature, I will get good value....I just can't stand not to! LOL!

JimmyH
06-23-12, 01:24 PM
Right now, I have a Latitude E6520. This thing rocks. I pulled the dvd drive (I haven't used an optical drive in two years) and replaced it with a battery. So I have a 15" laptop, with a full size, traditional backlit keyboard (with num pad), the most gorgeous 1920x1080 screen I have ever seen, a core i5 that runs almost everything as well as my xeon workstation, quadro graphics with optimus, built-in mobile broadband (that thanks to a bezel antenna gets 5 bars where my phone gets 2) and if I put it in power saver mode, I can get 10 hours of surfing/emailing. This is a do-it-all laptop that is perfect on my desk, couch, or in the car. I have no qualms in keeping it as my road machine.

Why do I want an ultrabook? Because I am a geek who has had 7 different laptops in the last 2 years. I REALLY want a MacBook too. The exorbitant price is the only reason I don't have one. Now if someone here has a lightly used MacBook Pro or Air they are looking to unload on the cheap, PM me :D

The Raven
06-23-12, 02:58 PM
I REALLY want a MacBook too. The exorbitant price is the only reason I don't have one. Now if someone here has a lightly used MacBook Pro or Air they are looking to unload on the cheap, PM me :D

Don't waste your time, not worth it. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know who is not an Apple nut (I know two of those) that bought a Mac laptop has regretted it. They bought into it because they were told about how easy it is to use a Mac, and they saw how pretty they are. Then they plunked down the exhorbitant amount of cash necessary to purchase one, and quickly learned that all that stuff they took for granted being able to do on their windows laptop - like working from home on their company's network, design software, accounting software, joining virtual meetings, writing code, and so on and so on - they now couldn't do. Most of them ended up keeping their old laptop so that they could do all the stuff they actually needed to do, and the Mac ended up being relegated to occasional web surfing and serving as a nice desk ornament. But hey, at least it looked great!

I don't really buy into the ultrabook thing either...there are plenty of thin enough full-featured laptops out there. I just built myself a brand new one six months ago (of course that means it's ancient now) - Sandy Bridge Quad core, 8GB DDR3 RAM, 500GB HDD, GTX555 w/2GB VRAM, blu-ray, bluetooth/dual-band wifi, and a 184ppi 95% color gamut 15" screen (makes Apple's hi-res screens look washed out in comparison). It packs a 9-cell battery that gets me a solid 4 hours of runtime even using AutoCAD (which is what I use it for mostly, other than email and v-conferencing). All this is packed into a chassis that is under 1 1/4" thick. Nothing like an Ultrabook of course, but i'd much rather have a full-featured system that's "medium-weight" than to sacrifice everything an ultrabook requires you to sacrifice just to have a 1/2" thick unit.

JimmyH
06-23-12, 03:08 PM
I do like to do some occasional gaming on the road, which an ultrabook won't do. But I could live without cutting edge games. I just want one to have one.

otoh, I have always wanted to build my own laptop. Where do you get your barebone laptop from? I would love to have a sandy bridge mobo, nvidia geforce optimus, and a high-res matte screen. It seems impossible to get a geforce equipped laptop that has a matte, rather than glossy screen. It seems if you want a matte screen, you are stuck with either integrated or quadro graphics. not that it's a huge deal. my nvs 4200 is essentially a GT520M with much better clipping, but it does drop more frames than a geforce when gaming. I don't really need quadro on my laptop, I do all my autocad and 3dsmax on my workstation.

Playdrv4me
06-23-12, 04:22 PM
Don't waste your time, not worth it. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know who is not an Apple nut (I know two of those) that bought a Mac laptop has regretted it. They bought into it because they were told about how easy it is to use a Mac, and they saw how pretty they are. Then they plunked down the exhorbitant amount of cash necessary to purchase one, and quickly learned that all that stuff they took for granted being able to do on their windows laptop - like working from home on their company's network, design software, accounting software, joining virtual meetings, writing code, and so on and so on - they now couldn't do. Most of them ended up keeping their old laptop so that they could do all the stuff they actually needed to do, and the Mac ended up being relegated to occasional web surfing and serving as a nice desk ornament. But hey, at least it looked great!

Interesting, my Air cost me less than the comparable Asus unit, yet I am able to perform all of those functions with ease. For the rare occasion when I actually NEED windows (usually because of a corporate IT departments lack of motivation to upgrade their software to be compatible beyond anything outside of IE6), my Air is actually one of the finest Windows laptops ever either in emulation OR boot camp which essentially turns it into a Windows machine. You have to be really dumb to not be able to make a Macbook work for you. Even dumber to pay full price when the Apple refurbs are significantly discounted and better than new. The equivalent machine to mine is now 849.00 refurb which undercuts most other Ultrabooks similarly equipped, to say nothing about the quality of the hardware itself. In other words, you could leave aside the silly Apple discussion altogether and buy one of these things strictly to run Windows, and it would still be a better Windows machine than most of its competition (and I know many tech pundits who do exactly that). If you choose not to do a little homework, Apple is more than happy to take as much as your money as they can, however, and there are definitely some overpriced configurations.

The Raven
06-23-12, 05:38 PM
I do like to do some occasional gaming on the road, which an ultrabook won't do. But I could live without cutting edge games. I just want one to have one.

otoh, I have always wanted to build my own laptop. Where do you get your barebone laptop from? I would love to have a sandy bridge mobo, nvidia geforce optimus, and a high-res matte screen. It seems impossible to get a geforce equipped laptop that has a matte, rather than glossy screen. It seems if you want a matte screen, you are stuck with either integrated or quadro graphics. not that it's a huge deal. my nvs 4200 is essentially a GT520M with much better clipping, but it does drop more frames than a geforce when gaming. I don't really need quadro on my laptop, I do all my autocad and 3dsmax on my workstation.

It is tricky to build laptops. You have to be very educated about the different OEMs and who makes a good chassis. Even then, when you nail down the chassis you want, the real trick is finding a place to buy it...the OEMs only sell to distributors. Clevo and Asus make the best chassis' that i've been able to find thus far. I've built five Asus-based units so far, the oldest being 5 years, and all are still performing flawlessly. They've all been perfect and very durable. I also have built three MSI units, and while their design is definitely very cool, their quality is less so. I would not recommend MSI. I just started working with Clevo and this is my favorite OEM by far. Their Chassis' are top quality, and they do a great job of following industry standards, so you can source third-party screens, keyboards, touchpads, and speakers. My newest unit is a Clevo chassis that I got through RJ Tech...though i'm sure it's already discontinued (that's the other problem, chassis are replaced and discontinued VERY quickly). It was not available with a NICE screen, so I bought it with the cheapest screen and went on the hunt for a GOOD matte screen. The AUO B56HW04 is a 184ppi 95% color gamut matte screen (AU Optronics has a whole B56 series that is CG95 in different sizes, resolutions, and configurations to work with different laptops) that fits my Clevo chassis, so I bought it separately (found it on Amazon with some patience)...but it did cost an additional $150 on top of buying the original chassis with screen. I also found a backlit keyboard to round out the package.

The best part about this setup is that it accepts any of the Sandy Bridge mobile CPUs, and with a firmware update could even support Ivy Bridge. I can change the CPU, add more memory, change out the hard drive (or switch to an SSD), swap in any new advancement in wireless miniPCI-E units...there's even an extra miniPCI-E slot I can use for a WWAN card or whatever else I can find out there.


Interesting, my Air cost me less than the comparable Asus unit, yet I am able to perform all of those functions with ease. For the rare occasion when I actually NEED windows (usually because of a corporate IT departments lack of motivation to upgrade their software to be compatible beyond anything outside of IE6), my Air is actually one of the finest Windows laptops ever either in emulation OR boot camp which essentially turns it into a Windows machine. You have to be really dumb to not be able to make a Macbook work for you. Even dumber to pay full price when the Apple refurbs are significantly discounted and better than new. The equivalent machine to mine is now 849.00 refurb which undercuts most other Ultrabooks similarly equipped, to say nothing about the quality of the hardware itself. In other words, you could leave aside the silly Apple discussion altogether and buy one of these things strictly to run Windows, and it would still be a better Windows machine than most of its competition (and I know many tech pundits who do exactly that). If you choose not to do a little homework, Apple is more than happy to take as much as your money as they can, however, and there are definitely some overpriced configurations.

So basically, you are saying that we should buy a Mac and put windows on it. Essentially paying a premium for a designer PC (when there are already designer PCs out there cheaper that don't require you to VM your OS). Or, if the price is the problem, we should buy a refurbished Mac at the same price as a NEW PC...again only to have to VM a useful OS onto it. Nowhere in here is any mention of the significant limitations you impose when you VM windows.

There is an easy solution to all of this - don't buy a Mac. Money saved, extra work avoided. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to paint any Mac owner as an idiot or dumbass. All i'm saying is that if you currently use a windows PC to do anything beyond web surfing and web-based email, you are likely going to regret buying a Mac to replace it.

gary88
06-23-12, 05:49 PM
For crying out loud here we go again.

Playdrv4me
06-23-12, 06:38 PM
It is tricky to build laptops. You have to be very educated about the different OEMs and who makes a good chassis. Even then, when you nail down the chassis you want, the real trick is finding a place to buy it...the OEMs only sell to distributors. Clevo and Asus make the best chassis' that i've been able to find thus far. I've built five Asus-based units so far, the oldest being 5 years, and all are still performing flawlessly. They've all been perfect and very durable. I also have built three MSI units, and while their design is definitely very cool, their quality is less so. I would not recommend MSI. I just started working with Clevo and this is my favorite OEM by far. Their Chassis' are top quality, and they do a great job of following industry standards, so you can source third-party screens, keyboards, touchpads, and speakers. My newest unit is a Clevo chassis that I got through RJ Tech...though i'm sure it's already discontinued (that's the other problem, chassis are replaced and discontinued VERY quickly). It was not available with a NICE screen, so I bought it with the cheapest screen and went on the hunt for a GOOD matte screen. The AUO B56HW04 is a 184ppi 95% color gamut matte screen (AU Optronics has a whole B56 series that is CG95 in different sizes, resolutions, and configurations to work with different laptops) that fits my Clevo chassis, so I bought it separately (found it on Amazon with some patience)...but it did cost an additional $150 on top of buying the original chassis with screen. I also found a backlit keyboard to round out the package.

The best part about this setup is that it accepts any of the Sandy Bridge mobile CPUs, and with a firmware update could even support Ivy Bridge. I can change the CPU, add more memory, change out the hard drive (or switch to an SSD), swap in any new advancement in wireless miniPCI-E units...there's even an extra miniPCI-E slot I can use for a WWAN card or whatever else I can find out there.



So basically, you are saying that we should buy a Mac and put windows on it. Essentially paying a premium for a designer PC (when there are already designer PCs out there cheaper that don't require you to VM your OS). Or, if the price is the problem, we should buy a refurbished Mac at the same price as a NEW PC...again only to have to VM a useful OS onto it. Nowhere in here is any mention of the significant limitations you impose when you VM windows.

There is an easy solution to all of this - don't buy a Mac. Money saved, extra work avoided. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to paint any Mac owner as an idiot or dumbass. All i'm saying is that if you currently use a windows PC to do anything beyond web surfing and web-based email, you are likely going to regret buying a Mac to replace it.

There's plenty of new Macs at equal prices to their PC counterparts when taking into account similar parts content, but you can do even better than that by purchasing a Mac refurb. Since the QA process for refurb is insanely stringent, it's as good as buying the new ones anyway.

So rather than having a machine that does a million things with mediocre execution, I have one machine that can still do all of that, plus be infinitely more enjoyable to use day in and day out. Let's face it, if you're looking at Ultrabooks the you are already past the "appearance" argument. Especially since most of them are in this price range anyway. In fact, it's hilarious to me to see someone attack a Mac based on the age old "boutique" argument, and then turn around and recommend another machine that clearly takes all of its design cues from the one that was just condemned for being good looking and well made! You don't have to run Windows in VM either, you can boot camp it which essentially boots it no differently than any other PC hardware. After all, that's all the current Macs are. Custom matched PC hardware with an O/S designed to work optimally with those components.

btw, when you enter a topic where someone is looking for an honest evaluation with completely immature comments like "it can actually do things" and "Don't waste your time on a Mac", you immediately take the low road. It's quite obvious it's meant to do nothing more than instigate, which is the mark of fanboi-ism if I've ever witnessed it. Once again, I presented the honest, level-headed evaluation, and your early comments were nothing more than a slam at Macs. Each O/S has its place, and it's all about what you think you'll be doing more on a daily basis and how you expect your computing experience to function on a daily basis. Jimmy wants mobile broadband so Macs are a non-starter at that point anyway. But there's a difference in approaching it that way versus "THEY DON'T HAVE MOBILE BROADBAND AND ANYWAY, THEY SUCK!" It demeans your entire argument. We've already covered this in nauseating detail, but I'll re-iterate that Windows XP is still one of my all time favorite O/Ses. It is the no frills similarities in simplicity between XP and OSX that I actually enjoy.

I will say that it's interesting to see that there is still a niche market for self-built laptop system. I figured that with the immense drop in OEM systems over the last few years that market would have evaporated, but as someone who has torn down a number of laptops to fix broken power ports, I would hope these chassis kits go together more intuitively than that.

talismandave
06-23-12, 07:17 PM
For crying out loud here we go again.
Duh...like I said. Did we not learn from the cellphone thread....

Jesda
06-23-12, 08:03 PM
Don't waste your time, not worth it. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know who is not an Apple nut (I know two of those) that bought a Mac laptop has regretted it.

Gee, no bias there.

I use both computing platforms daily and enjoy them.



There is an easy solution to all of this - don't buy a Mac. Money saved, extra work avoided. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to paint any Mac owner as an idiot or dumbass. All i'm saying is that if you currently use a windows PC to do anything beyond web surfing and web-based email, you are likely going to regret buying a Mac to replace it.

Maybe you had a run-in with a hipster at a vinyl shop or had a negative experience at an Apple store?

Regardless, who cares? People use whatever they enjoy using.



If you're going to have an axe to grind, reserve it for something meaningful.

JimmyH
06-23-12, 09:59 PM
To be fair to all, I did buy an iMac a few years ago. I really liked it, but I did regret buying it, because I spent all my time in bootcamp. Most people who are like Raven and I, whose computer lives are centered around software like AutoCAD and Accountmate (which, until this year in the case of autocad, don't run on MacOS) can't see the point of running MacOS. If I am stuck in the windows world for business, I am just not that interested in playing in the Mac world at home. Then of course there is gaming, where Mac is left way behind.

And Ian, I did buy my iMac refurbished, and it was significantly cheaper than new, but not jaw-dropping so. The Macbooks themselves don't seem to be cheaper enough refurbed for me to consider one over new. You can get refurbished Dells much cheaper than new just like Macs anyway. It's not really fair to compare a refurbed Mac to a new PC. I can't say I have ever seen a Macbook that is not incredibly overpriced when you compare the hardware apples to apples with PC notebooks.

With all that said, if I had piles of cash just looking for a place to go, I would have an Ultrabook and a Macbook Air right now, just so I can tell myself that I have them. I spend a great deal of time tinkering with my computers. I have had several that I never even used productively. I just set them up, tweaked them, got bored and sold them. :D

Jesda
06-23-12, 11:20 PM
Computers have been both elevated and commoditized. You can buy a completely functional box from Dell brand new for $299, and you can buy a loaded machine from Apple for six or seven times as much. Computers, for many, are luxury goods. You might find a 300hp V8 in a late 90s Mustang and you might have an equally powerful V8 in a 2009 XLR, but they're entirely different in execution and justify their price tags with construction, design, look, and feel. You pay for niceness, and like all luxury goods, branding is a part of it.

To me, computers are just objects that calculate things, so I can't get passionate about a platform. I can't engage in a Mac vs Wintel discussion without becoming completely bored. Dependability is all I need. That's why I have a $200 used Thinkpad and a $500 Mac Mini. For gaming, I have a Dreamcast.


Tablets and smartphones are luxury items too. What you actually "need", when you pare it down like Henry David Thoreau, is an axe for chopping firewood and some livestock to make blankets, that way you can send smoke signals in the air.

BOOM!! There's your email and text messages.

ryannel2003
06-23-12, 11:28 PM
I've been buying refurbished MacBook's and iMac's since 2006 and they have all been perfect. They looked like brand new machines and the only noticeable difference has been the box that is used to ship them in. You get the same warranty, same great quality for about 15% off the normal price depending on the product you want. My last refurb machine, a 2.4GHz Core i5 MacBook Pro was the nicest machine I had ever used. It was quick, looked beautiful, and had everything I needed in a laptop at the time. Standard price was $1200, and the refurb model was a little over a $1000. The only reason why I still don't have the computer was because it was destroyed in the wreck which made me sick... I was going to keep that laptop for a long time. It's replacement, a used Lenovo ThinkPad T61p has a better keyboard and is more solid but otherwise it lacks the speed and hardware of the Pro. Of course I only paid $150 for it so I can't complain, but I'm looking to get back into a used plastic MacBook very soon. Even though Windows 7 is pretty great, I just prefer the way OS X works. I believe that Mountain Lion will fix all the issues I had with Lion, and there were quite a few. I personally think that Snow Leopard and Tiger were the best version of OS X. Lion was always buggy for me.

Playdrv4me
06-23-12, 11:30 PM
It's not really fair to compare a refurbed Mac to a new PC. I can't say I have ever seen a Macbook that is not incredibly overpriced when you compare the hardware apples to apples with PC notebooks.

Jimmeh... For the purposes of this thread my comparison IS between Ultrabooks and Macbook Airs at retail pricepoints, because that's what the Ultrabook standard was modeled after, and it's what you originally posted the thread about. Using the Zenbook mentioned earlier that was identical in specs to my Air as an example, the list price was within a couple hundred bucks of the Air when new... 999 for the Zenbook vs. 1199 for the Air with the identical configuration. And you know where that 200.00 went? A backlit keyboard, a beautiful display, a magsafe adapter, excellent audio (for what it is), a proper cooling system and a touchpad that doesn't send your mouse to oblivion when you graze it while typing. It's not as if there weren't substantive quality differences for a shave higer difference in cash. Yet the Air gets the brunt of the attack for being overpriced. I am not taking sides, I just have to jump in to keep things in perspective. Remember, I never said there aren't ways to get screwed buying some of the higher end Apple configs.

At *least* I haven't heard the "it's a 1000.00 Netbook" line yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Zenbook-UX21E-DH52-11-6-Inch-Ultrabook-Aluminum/dp/B005UF6G80/ref=pd_cp_pc_0

Of course now I'm sure someone will try to jump in and say the Zenbook was 999 because Apple set the price expectation.

Playdrv4me
06-23-12, 11:31 PM
*duplicate*

drewsdeville
06-24-12, 12:10 AM
Really, all this discussion should be about is the operating system, because that's all this really boils down to in the end.

As far as hardware goes, the Macbook is a nice machine - but it's popularity has driven competition. Almost every manufacturer makes a high quality aluminum/magnesium chassis in any hardware configuration you can think of, and they are all quite competitive. There are some minor differences, but the main material difference between them is the operating system. It's important to recognize because, while the applications you interact with are really what's defining most of your experience, they have to be compatible with the platform you need them to run on.

That said, if you are ok with paying the premium pricetag, realize that you are basically paying it to get OS X, so be sure that OS X is what you need/want. The hardware you can get anywhere, but the operating system is the only exclusive component between the machines discussed.

Playdrv4me
06-24-12, 12:31 AM
Really, all this discussion should be about is the operating system, because that's all this really boils down to in the end.

As far as hardware goes, the Macbook is a nice machine - but it's popularity has driven competition. Almost every manufacturer makes a high quality aluminum/magnesium chassis in any hardware configuration you can think of, and they are all quite competitive. There are some minor differences, but the main material difference between them is the operating system. It's important to recognize because, while the applications you interact with are really what's defining most of your experience, they have to be compatible with the platform you need them to run on.

That said, if you are ok with paying the premium pricetag, realize that you are basically paying it to get OS X, so be sure that OS X is what you need/want. The hardware you can get anywhere, but the operating system is the only exclusive component between the machines discussed.

^ Well... shit. I can't disagree with that.

Jesda
06-24-12, 12:37 AM
That said, if you are ok with paying the premium pricetag, realize that you are basically paying it to get OS X, so be sure that OS X is what you need/want. The hardware you can get anywhere, but the operating system is the only exclusive component between the machines discussed.

Actually, there's subtle enhancements and features that are exclusive to both Apple and Sony. You have to look beyond the standard list of specs and some read in-depth reviews.

Like I said, V8 Mustang and V8 XLR both have a V8, but there's differences beyond that. A more accurate analogy might be Eldorado vs Mark VIII.



My laptop, meanwhile, is a used F-150.

drewsdeville
06-24-12, 01:15 AM
Depending on the software you run, the difference between a machine running OS X, Windows, Linux, or BSD could be like a Silverado vs a Cadillac.

Someone who needs a pickup truck shouldn't buy a Cadillac because they think the trunk pull-down feature is nifty.

This should be something for him to consider since he claims that while he *could* go without it, he enjoys gaming. This suddenly makes Windows vs. OS X an important decision, regardless of little extra trinkets.

Jesda
06-24-12, 02:44 AM
This should be something for him to consider since he claims that while he *could* go without it, he enjoys gaming. This suddenly makes Windows vs. OS X an important decision, regardless of little extra trinkets.

Yeah, that's true, but gamers seem to know well ahead of time what their wants and needs are, like Jeep owners. Most of them are unlikely to buy from Apple or Sony to pay extra for luxury features and design elements.

The ultrabook is, to some degree, a design response to tablets. The public is expecting tablet-like portability from mobile PCs with none of the compromises of netbooks.

drewsdeville
06-24-12, 10:29 AM
Yeah, that's true, but gamers seem to know well ahead of time what their wants and needs are, like Jeep owners. Most of them are unlikely to buy from Apple or Sony to pay extra for luxury features and design elements.


But not this time. That's why we have this thread.

And why are we using Sony of all manufacturers as the example alternative to Apple?

Playdrv4me
06-24-12, 10:31 AM
I guess it's not just a premium for the O/S per se (since Apple sells that O/S separately for 29.00 and doesn't particularly give a damn how many computers you put that one licensed piece of software on), but a premium for the complete hardware and software integration that gives you that expected result. Since Apple controls the hardware, they can model the O/S around it. MS on the other hand is a software company first, so their O/S product has to be relatively compatible with EVERYTHING. I say relatively because that's the problem, it's about 80% effective.

What do I mean by 80%? Does that mean that 20 percent of the hardware out there doesn't work? No. That's 80 percent of the whole user experience picture. A certain ethernet or wireless controller might take just a tad too long to start after sleep, a certain touchpad might not handle multi-touch well or tap to click well, a certain combination of GPU and CPU might cause overheating issues (hello HP/AMD) etc etc.

If you're an active PC enthusiast then sure, you could seek out the best combination of hardware to hopefully get that 80 percent experience closer to 100 percent. With Apple that work is already done for you, and that's part of what you pay for. I'd say even then Apple achieves probably 97 percent execution, since they definitely have their share of firmware updates and hardware problems as well.

But again, all of this strays from the topic at hand, since you CAN'T build an Ultrabook, at least not yet. So if you're buying off the shelf computers, those are the choices, the compromises in either direction, and the decision you ultimately have to make.

drewsdeville
06-24-12, 10:38 AM
Yes, just like anything, you are paying for the overall EXPERIENCE. But by and large, the OS differences are altering the experience more than anything else. Those missing or included trinkets aren't going to matter when a gamer can't run the games they like, or a Windows user can't run the productivity software they are used to.

I'm not saying that the Macbook is bad - I'm agreeing that they provide vastly different experiences, due to software compatibility. The machine should be chosen based on what software it needs to run, THEN figure out the trinkets and addons afterwards.

The trunk pull-down feature on the Cadillac is nice, but it is doing very little to influence the overall experience. When people were buying them new, they probably weren't considering that feature when weighing the pros and cons across manufacturers.

Just like car shopping, if you don't put it all together in a logical order, you'll be unhappy with your final decision one way or another.

The Raven
06-24-12, 12:42 PM
There's plenty of new Macs at equal prices to their PC counterparts when taking into account similar parts content, but you can do even better than that by purchasing a Mac refurb. Since the QA process for refurb is insanely stringent, it's as good as buying the new ones anyway.

Retail to retail, a Mac is anywhere from $200-$500 more than it's similarly spec-d PC alternative. Now you can certainly say that this is only because the PC you are comparing to the Mac is last-generation in most cases, but who's fault is that? If you are going to offer last-generation hardware, you shouldn't be charging current-generation prices.


So rather than having a machine that does a million things with mediocre execution, I have one machine that can still do all of that, plus be infinitely more enjoyable to use day in and day out. Let's face it, if you're looking at Ultrabooks the you are already past the "appearance" argument. Especially since most of them are in this price range anyway. In fact, it's hilarious to me to see someone attack a Mac based on the age old "boutique" argument, and then turn around and recommend another machine that clearly takes all of its design cues from the one that was just condemned for being good looking and well made! You don't have to run Windows in VM either, you can boot camp it which essentially boots it no differently than any other PC hardware. After all, that's all the current Macs are. Custom matched PC hardware with an O/S designed to work optimally with those components.

There are lots of people for whom an Apple-OS based computer will do everything they'll ever need. There are far more, however, for whom a Mac will just not cut it. Apparently, I only know the second type of person.


btw, when you enter a topic where someone is looking for an honest evaluation with completely immature comments like "it can actually do things" and "Don't waste your time on a Mac", you immediately take the low road. It's quite obvious it's meant to do nothing more than instigate, which is the mark of fanboi-ism if I've ever witnessed it. Once again, I presented the honest, level-headed evaluation, and your early comments were nothing more than a slam at Macs. Each O/S has its place, and it's all about what you think you'll be doing more on a daily basis and how you expect your computing experience to function on a daily basis. Jimmy wants mobile broadband so Macs are a non-starter at that point anyway. But there's a difference in approaching it that way versus "THEY DON'T HAVE MOBILE BROADBAND AND ANYWAY, THEY SUCK!" It demeans your entire argument. We've already covered this in nauseating detail, but I'll re-iterate that Windows XP is still one of my all time favorite O/Ses. It is the no frills similarities in simplicity between XP and OSX that I actually enjoy.

There was nothing immature in my comments. There was some strong wording that could have offended any Apple enthusiast however. Immature is when I personally insult you for owning a Mac. I've made clear (in more than one discussion) that I don't look down on anyone who buys Apple products...I don't think you are any dumber than I am. As much as I try to research my purchases, I too have bought many big-deal items and later regretted my decision. That doesn't make me an idiot just like you buying a Mac doesn't make you an idiot. You bought what you thought you would like, and lucky for you, you ended up actually liking it. I'm just trying to make sure that others who won't be so lucky don't make a bad decision based on flashy marketing. The OP asked for guidance on his purchase, and i'm providing guidance based on my extensive experience.


I will say that it's interesting to see that there is still a niche market for self-built laptop system. I figured that with the immense drop in OEM systems over the last few years that market would have evaporated, but as someone who has torn down a number of laptops to fix broken power ports, I would hope these chassis kits go together more intuitively than that.

Yes, but despite the fact that these are very well designed chassis' that are not a nightmare to work with, it's still a pain-in-the-ass to source the stuff you need and know that you are getting quality parts. I don't recommend it to anyone outside of very seasoned PC builders. It is nice when you can do it though, because you can piece together all the features you really want...it's tough to find the right combination in any single manufacturer, including Apple. There are great features that are exclusive to their respective brands.


Maybe you had a run-in with a hipster at a vinyl shop or had a negative experience at an Apple store?

I met Steve Jobs. Had to work with the man for 3 weeks. I could write a novel on my experience, but i'll sum it up here by simply saying he's the biggest ******* i've ever encountered in my entire life. I was fine with Apple until I crossed paths with him.

I will say that now that Tim Cook is running the show, i'm giving Apple a chance. He's already shown that he's out to right the ship, and he publicly stated that Apple will be ending the patent war it's been waging against android. However soon after that statement, his legal team showed up at US customs to delay the shipment of HTC's newest android phones...actions speak louder than words, as they say.


To be fair to all, I did buy an iMac a few years ago. I really liked it, but I did regret buying it, because I spent all my time in bootcamp. Most people who are like Raven and I, whose computer lives are centered around software like AutoCAD and Accountmate (which, until this year in the case of autocad, don't run on MacOS) can't see the point of running MacOS. If I am stuck in the windows world for business, I am just not that interested in playing in the Mac world at home. Then of course there is gaming, where Mac is left way behind.

EXACTLY!!

It's not like I love Windows...as I always say, the only entity I hate more than Microsoft is Apple. Windows is the standard, and while it could be ALOT better, it's really not that bad. Windows 7 allows you to do anything you want, with 90% success. Mac's OS X allows you to do everything Apple wants you to do, with 100% success. If you prefer the latter, great...but remember that by and large, especially in America, people don't like to be told what they can do. Technology needs to be allowed to progress, and not be held back by a set of stringent controls "for our benefit". The US government continually imposes more and more restrictions on us while branding them as "national security" and people immediately fight back...but Apple continues it's tradition of inventing new ways to limit us while branding them as "the next big thing", and people can't eat it up fast enough.

The Apple thing has been tried with my company...our CEO is an Apple fanboy. Try as he might he couldn't make an all-Apple package work. We spent probably $50k on Apple hardware that is now largely collecting dust in the closet in my office. The CEO still uses an iPhone and iPad, in addition to his Lenovo laptop and Dell desktop (he insists on lugging his three mobile components around even though all he actually uses is the laptop and the iPhone to make phone calls and receive mail), and one of our project managers still has an iPhone and Macbook that sits on his desk collecting dust while he works on his Lenovo laptop, in addition to his iMac running windows (which is in the process of being replaced because he can't access our accounting software for reporting or run 64-bit autocad on it). Everyone else has reverted back to the Lenovo laptops and dell desktops because it's just so much easier to get things done.

Again, I have no issue with you for buying an Apple product...I don't look down on you nor do I intend to insult you. People need to know what they are buying before they make a very expensive purchase based on flashy marketing. Once they know the truth, if they still feel an Apple product is best for them, I have zero problem with that.

JimmyH
06-24-12, 01:41 PM
lulz, I am not so hot for an ultrabook anymore :D or a macbook air.

Not sure what I am going to do. I, at one point, had three different laptops I used. Now I am down to one laptop, and one gaming rig I built. And of course my workstation, wife's laptop, family's computers I have to keep fixing, etc. I am just idle right now and trying to figure out what the next phase is :D Maybe I will look around for a used macbook to tinker with.

The Raven
06-24-12, 01:48 PM
lulz, I am not so hot for an ultrabook anymore :D or a macbook air.

Not sure what I am going to do. I, at one point, had three different laptops I used. Now I am down to one laptop, and one gaming rig I built. And of course my workstation, wife's laptop, family's computers I have to keep fixing, etc. I am just idle right now and trying to figure out what the next phase is :D Maybe I will look around for a used macbook to tinker with.

If you are looking for something new to play with, why not try Linux...or if you already have, then do what I am currently doing and familiarize yourself with Solaris. Oracle will be releasing a desktop-oriented version of Solaris towards the end of this year, and it's FREE. Played right, it will be a compelling offering, because Solaris' file system and security is phenomenal, it just needs a competitive GUI, which is supposedly what they've been working on for this upcoming release. All you need is a machine newer than 6 years old and you're all set.

drewsdeville
06-24-12, 01:52 PM
Played right, it will be a compelling offering, because Solaris' file system and security is phenomenal, it just needs a competitive GUI, which is supposedly what they've been working on for this upcoming release.

An operating system is only as good as it's application support (this is why Windows will continue to to lead for years to come). If no one is making software for it, no one will want it. It will be useless no matter how well it performs or how competitive the GUI is. Fundamentally, linux based OS's have come a long way and are arguably superior to it's rivals, but it can't take off due to low application support.

gary88
06-24-12, 02:16 PM
lulz, I am not so hot for an ultrabook anymore :D or a macbook air.

Not sure what I am going to do. I, at one point, had three different laptops I used. Now I am down to one laptop, and one gaming rig I built. And of course my workstation, wife's laptop, family's computers I have to keep fixing, etc. I am just idle right now and trying to figure out what the next phase is :D Maybe I will look around for a used macbook to tinker with.

Wait a bit and I'll sell you mine, four years old and still runs like a champ :2thumbs:

MacMuse
06-24-12, 03:20 PM
If you are looking for something new to play with, why not try Linux...

um... Macs are unix systems. With a very well designed Graphical User Interface on top.

JimmyH
06-24-12, 03:45 PM
Wait a bit and I'll sell you mine, four years old and still runs like a champ :2thumbs:

I'm in no rush. Holler at me when your ready.

I have played with Linux. Mostly in a Vm. I don't like how everything you do makes you log in as root.

I might install windows 8 on my latitude and play with that for a while. I played with it in a vm but I want to try it installed for real.


FYI to anyone who cares: avoid Crucial SSD. It performs worse than the budget Kingston SSD in my other computer. It takes almost as long for my laptop to boot from an sata6 SSD as it did from an sata3 5400 drive. Granted I have ALOT of items at startup and it does run much faster once booted. But still it's a laptop and I turn it on and off alot.

Stingroo
06-24-12, 03:57 PM
Retail to retail....


...


...


tl;dr

...


Is your first name Rick, by any chance? :coffee:


(Sorry, I had to go there. :lol:)

ryannel2003
06-24-12, 04:49 PM
Wait a bit and I'll sell you mine, four years old and still runs like a champ :2thumbs:

How long before you were planning to sell? I might seriously be interested.

The Raven
06-24-12, 04:50 PM
An operating system is only as good as it's application support (this is why Windows will continue to to lead for years to come). If no one is making software for it, no one will want it. It will be useless no matter how well it performs or how competitive the GUI is. Fundamentally, linux based OS's have come a long way and are arguably superior to it's rivals, but it can't take off due to low application support.

But that doesn't mean you can't play with it and LEARN something. I will be using Solaris on my servers once I get the free time to rebuild.


um... Macs are unix systems. With a very well designed Graphical User Interface on top.

Wow...really?! My whole life...i've been living a lie...

:nono:

Seriously though, if he's looking for something to "play around with", that tells me he's looking for a new challenge. What's challenging about Mac OS? Nothing. That's precisely it's appeal.

gary88
06-24-12, 05:21 PM
How long before you were planning to sell? I might seriously be interested.

Probably in two to three months.

September '08 build (non-unibody)
2.4GHz Core 2 Duo
4GB RAM
250GB HDD
1440x900 15" matte display

ryannel2003
06-24-12, 05:57 PM
Probably in two to three months.

September '08 build (non-unibody)
2.4GHz Core 2 Duo
4GB RAM
250GB HDD
1440x900 15" matte display

That sounds great. When you're ready to sell make sure to get up with me. I've been missing a Mac and that design is my favorite Apple laptop by far.

Jesda
06-24-12, 06:38 PM
But not this time. That's why we have this thread.

And why are we using Sony of all manufacturers as the example alternative to Apple?

Like I said earlier, Sony charges a premium for design and additional features, just like Apple. The two brands don't just make computers. They make luxury electronics.

Jesda
06-24-12, 06:47 PM
Not one application I use on my Windows 7 laptop isn't available (or available with an equivalent) on the Mac, which is why I can go back and forth between both platforms without feeling like I'm moving to another planet.
Simcity (about the only game I play) runs better on Windows because the Mac version was so hastily ported, so I prefer to use my Thinkpad for that. Additionally, video editing with Final Cut on the Mac is outstanding, so I prefer to use my Mac to work with video and graphics.


The Mac platform had serious issues with software availability in the mid to late 90s, like the lack of a decent productivity package. Most of that has been remedied, and as common end-user functions move to "the cloud" [I hate that term], the desktop OS will matter less. Heck, you can order a PC with Ubuntu from Dell.

The Raven
06-24-12, 07:16 PM
Simcity (about the only game I play) runs better on Windows because the Mac version was so hastily ported, so I prefer to use my Thinkpad for that.

WOW I haven't heard that name in YEARS. That game used to enslave me. Makes me wish I had time to play a game these days...seems like as time goes on, I have less and less free time and games require more and more time to really be enjoyed.

Jesda
06-24-12, 07:42 PM
A new Simcity is coming but it's going to require a constant network connection. Knowing EA, once they shut down the servers you're out the money you spent on the game. :/

Jesda
06-24-12, 07:52 PM
I met Steve Jobs. Had to work with the man for 3 weeks. I could write a novel on my experience, but i'll sum it up here by simply saying he's the biggest ******* i've ever encountered in my entire life. I was fine with Apple until I crossed paths with him.

I will say that now that Tim Cook is running the show, i'm giving Apple a chance. He's already shown that he's out to right the ship, and he publicly stated that Apple will be ending the patent war it's been waging against android. However soon after that statement, his legal team showed up at US customs to delay the shipment of HTC's newest android phones...actions speak louder than words, as they say.

Oh I believe it. He was known to have an aggressive personality with ethical deficiencies (that's the polite way to put it).





As for patent issues, the problem goes back decades. Changes in the law have effectively turned designs and business methods into protected intellectual property. It should have raised a red flag when Amazon was able to get a patent for One-Click checkout. It's opened the door to patent bullying while those who hold legitimate patents are forced to aggressively take preemptive action, and they in turn look like bullies.

It's been a serious problem for tech, automotive, telecom, and even agriculture.


The winners? Lawyers. Lawyers always win.


http://www.technologyreview.com/review/408441/patent-law-gets-saner/
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120228/12285817901/organic-farmers-preemptive-lawsuit-against-monsanto-patents-tossed-out-being-bit-too-preemptive.shtml

JimmyH
06-24-12, 07:55 PM
I can't relate to sim city. There is a distinct lack of things blowing up in that game.

JimmyH
06-24-12, 07:57 PM
Ol Steve couldn't have been as bad Microsoft. Anytime software got written that got in their way they bought it and buried it.

Jesda
06-24-12, 08:12 PM
I can't relate to sim city. There is a distinct lack of things blowing up in that game.

Unless you're a bad mayor, then everything blows up.

The Raven
06-24-12, 09:54 PM
Ol Steve couldn't have been as bad Microsoft. Anytime software got written that got in their way they bought it and buried it.

Believe me, if Jobs could have done the same thing he would have. Apple just doesn't have the kind of power that Microsoft does.

JimmyH
06-24-12, 10:04 PM
I don't think even Exxon has the kind of power Microsoft has.

The Raven
06-24-12, 10:21 PM
I don't think even Exxon has the kind of power Microsoft has.

That's a VERY good question. Google, Microsoft, Exxon...those are the most powerful companies I can come up with right off the top of my head...who else?

drewsdeville
06-24-12, 10:27 PM
Not one application I use on my Windows 7 laptop isn't available (or available with an equivalent) on the Mac, which is why I can go back and forth between both platforms without feeling like I'm moving to another planet.
Simcity (about the only game I play) runs better on Windows because the Mac version was so hastily ported, so I prefer to use my Thinkpad for that. Additionally, video editing with Final Cut on the Mac is outstanding, so I prefer to use my Mac to work with video and graphics.


The Mac platform had serious issues with software availability in the mid to late 90s, like the lack of a decent productivity package. Most of that has been remedied, and as common end-user functions move to "the cloud" [I hate that term], the desktop OS will matter less. Heck, you can order a PC with Ubuntu from Dell.


You are usually pretty safe, client side. It's once you get into secure networking and are dealing with server side software that compatibility becomes an issue. Think Active Directory. They all have specific client hardware/software requirements, one of which is almost always a Windows OS.

Ask any experienced Mac user how great it is to work with Novell's software, which is still incredibly popular.

And, as mentioned, Windows has dominated the gaming scene with DirectX. Even today, 90% of games on Mac are ported from previously released Windows versions. The ports are usually horribad, hence the reason they all run like garbage on requirement-meeting (and even exceeding) hardware.


Like I said earlier, Sony charges a premium for design and additional features, just like Apple. The two brands don't just make computers. They make luxury electronics.

So does...everyone. HP Envy? Dell XPS?

I thought Sony has been trailing everyone else lately. I was surprised they were the first example.

The Raven
06-24-12, 10:48 PM
You are usually pretty safe, client side. It's once you get into secure networking and are dealing with server side software that compatibility becomes an issue. They all have specific client hardware/software requirements, one of which is almost always a Windows OS.

For example, someone working for another company from a remote location is probably going to run into some severe issues if they aren't running Windows.

Yup, and...

The vast majority of accounting and estimating software is completely incompatible with Mac...regardless of if it's running Windows or Mac OS (bootcamp has PLENTY of limitations). Same with 64-bit versions of alot of design software. Workforce tracking, virtual meeting, energy management, power generation, process control...the list of types of software which offer very little Mac support goes on and on. Many people never come in contact with any of the aforementioned software...however far more do. These are the people who need to be aware of what they are buying, and often aren't.

Aztec ETC ECS
06-24-12, 10:52 PM
Nevermind all that. Love the asshat, Drew.

drewsdeville
06-24-12, 10:53 PM
Me too! :cool2:

JimmyH
06-24-12, 11:14 PM
fwiw, I was pretty good at inducing the beach ball of death on my iMac.

Playdrv4me
06-24-12, 11:34 PM
I met Steve Jobs. Had to work with the man for 3 weeks. I could write a novel on my experience, but i'll sum it up here by simply saying he's the biggest ******* i've ever encountered in my entire life. I was fine with Apple until I crossed paths with him.

What's ironic about this statement is that the majority of tech pundits I follow (many of whom would have given their left nut to have ANY meeting with him so it's interesting that you were somehow able to get close to him) feel exactly the same way about Jobs "the man"... Yet DESPITE this, some of these guys, a few of whom have been obsessively reporting on this industry longer than you or I have even been alive, still prefer to use Apple hardware on a day in and day out basis. So much so as that one might think (and at least Leo L. is often accused of) they're somehow in Apple's back pocket. Which is all well and good except that A. Apple doesn't care for, nor do they need anyone in such a capacity, and B. most of these guys have been banned from Apple's press events altogether for giving fair, and sometimes negative analysis of the company.

So I don't think that views regarding Jobs himself necessarily add or detract anything from the viability of the hardware. If anything it's that brash attitude that helped him get that company where it is today when you consider what an utter disaster that campus had become in the 1990s.

For once I have to agree with Drew on his overall analysis regarding business networking and very specific applications being the pull toward Windows particularly for enterprise, otherwise I think the Mac machines are fine.


Again, I have no issue with you for buying an Apple product...I don't look down on you nor do I intend to insult you. People need to know what they are buying before they make a very expensive purchase based on flashy marketing. Once they know the truth, if they still feel an Apple product is best for them, I have zero problem with that.

I can drink to that.

Jesda
06-24-12, 11:39 PM
So does...everyone. HP Envy? Dell XPS?

Exactly.

The whole point of this dialogue was that -some- computers cost more because they are luxury goods, not just boxes that perform tasks, so on higher end models you have to look beyond the spec sheet to make a proper comparison.

Jesda
06-24-12, 11:40 PM
Nevermind all that. Love the asshat, Drew.

He earned it.

JimmyH
06-25-12, 01:47 PM
I still think Steve Jobs was really just Bill Gates in disguise, and Billy got tired of the ruse so he killed off the character.

MotownPimp
06-26-12, 02:50 PM
93903

orconn
06-26-12, 03:52 PM
93903

I can think of several other companies are licensed to use that "dust!"