: ZL-1 Defeats GT500 in Car and Driver test



93DevilleUSMC
06-22-12, 04:48 AM
Yep, you read that right. The GT500, for all it's extra power, simply could not match the ZL-1 in handling or driveability and frequently got spanked by said ZL-1 in back-road racing. The GT500's one scant advantage? Straight-line acceleration. And it was a SCANT advantage.

Read it and be happy. Or not.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2012/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-comparison-test.html

brandondeleo
06-22-12, 04:58 AM
Whenever Ford is defeated in some way, I'm happy.

Therefore, I am happy.

93DevilleUSMC
06-22-12, 05:32 AM
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_ford_shelby _gt500/viewall.html

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 08:00 AM
If the projected customer of these cars are anything like they have been in the past, Ford wins overall if it wins in acceleration. I can't believe GM couldn't pull that off. Handling doesn't sell these cars. 0-60, 1/4 mile, and stoplight drag races do. The Ford traps a half second faster than the Chevy. It'd be one thing if these cars were running 15's, but when you are dipping down into the 11's and 0-60 in the 4's, a half second is far from "scant". That's a spanking.

I'm sure the Mustang's biggest fan, Motor Trend, will come out with conflicting test results if they haven't already.

brandondeleo
06-22-12, 08:09 AM
Handling doesn't sell these cars. 0-60, 1/4 mile, and stoplight drag races do.
You're exactly correct.

M5eater
06-22-12, 09:18 AM
If the projected customer of these cars are anything like they have been in the past, Ford wins overall if it wins in acceleration. I can't believe GM couldn't pull that off. Handling doesn't sell these cars. 0-60, 1/4 mile, and stoplight drag races do. The Ford traps a half second faster than the Chevy. It'd be one thing if these cars were running 15's, but when you are dipping down into the 11's and 0-60 in the 4's, a half second is far from "scant". That's a spanking.

I'm sure the Mustang's biggest fan, Motor Trend, will come out with conflicting test results if they haven't already.

Ehh.. I think that's still mostly true, but I also think the demograph has changed slightly. Are people *not* nurburgring crazy these days? IMO, Chevy banked on track-goers acutally considering Camaro(which would have been punishable by finger pointing and uncontrollable laughter with respect to previous F-body generations), and it appears that may land them some extra sales, clearly it's a winner in that respect.

You know what this really is though? A shift from street-racer crazy cars to genuine sports cars that just happen to be sub 4 second monsters. GM transistioned the C6 from a high-tech 60s era corvette into an Enzo smasher. Seems like they applied the same logic to the Camaro. It *did* smash more than a few very well respected cars on said ring that people go crazy for. What was the GT500s ringtime again?

The question is though, will GM's gamble pay off or will Ford's decision to play it how it's traditionally been in the States come through for another grand slam. Certinally there will be a million GT500s on every street corner as usual, but will it be a bigger-than-normal hit? My money is on No.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-22-12, 09:29 AM
I like them both....a lot.... However, I like the ZL1 overall more.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 09:33 AM
Are people *not* nurburgring crazy these days?

They are when reading about and analyzing them. I think the Camaro/Mustang demographic, which for the most part is restricted to the US, mostly see it as a nifty statistic, but when it comes time to put money down on something, it quickly escapes their mind. Lets be honest here, neither manufacturer is banking on owners driving these cars on the Nurburgring with professional skill. These cars *might* see some action on cute little parking lot autocrosses, where the handling numbers will be MUCH tighter than what magazines will get on their long road courses with professional drivers.

For the rest, acceleration is the only meaningful gauge to the capability of a car. That's the way it's always been, and I don't think it's changed much at all. I can't say I agree, but that's the way it is in the real world. That's why we had the popularity of the fox-body, the hype over the Buick Grand National, the dawn of street-legal "rally" cars like the WRX and EVO, "performance" versions of pickup trucks (which, yes, made sense 30 years ago, but now?). <- none were amazing handlers, but they got the job done at the stop light. While handling is discussed from time to time, acceleration sells.

The Raven
06-22-12, 09:44 AM
Once again I find myself saying "see I told you so". It was pretty obvious to me that even Ford was a little scared of the ZL1 when they decided to bump the GT500's power by 100HP. That's a pretty damn extreme motor (and very impressive to boot)...I can't see Ford going to those lengths if they really were confident they had an answer for the ZL1.

It is absolutely true that handling doesn't sell cars in America. HP sells cars. However, to say that the only thing the ZL1 does is handle is insulting. There are now THREE comparison's out between these cars, and they ALL agree: the ONLY thing that the GT500 can do better than the ZL1 is accelerate in a straight line. The ZL1 is a better CAR. That, my friends, will sell. It's got a much better suspension, so not only does it handle better on the track, but it also handles better on the street...it's a far more liveable car. The styling is subjective, but clearly the general public likes the Camaro better (as evidenced by yearly sales), and to top it all off, the comparably equipped ZL1 is something like $8k cheaper. Is it worth it to pay $8k more for a small acceleration advantage? I suppose that's up to the buyer, but I personally don't see how it could be.

That said, it's really retarded to make a big deal out of which one of these cars is better...they are both so far into the stratosphere that we should be pinching ourselves because having two $60k ~600hp cars available to us is a dream come true. If not for their interiors, i'd happily rock either one of them.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 09:56 AM
I don't think that kind of reasoning works with these cars. When it comes to physical capabilities, these cars are built for speed. Everything else is secondary, ESPECIALLY ride quality. Telling your opponent on the street or your buddy at the bar that it's ok you are slower because your car rides better doesn't work. you may as well try to justify it with tow ratings while you are at it.

Maybe things are different in Milwaukee, but for pony car enthusiasts on the street, either you're faster or you aren't. That's all there is. That's why people are willing to drive shitboxes with big motors (foxbody?). If you wanted a fast, nice riding car, you were shopping in the wrong class. Neither of these cars can do both - they are all about looking cool and going fast. That's what the pony car was created for.

talismandave
06-22-12, 10:00 AM
These reports are only for the owners of either car to confirm their own opinion anyway. It wouldn't matter what the results are. None of them are going to trade brands after reading a review.

The Raven
06-22-12, 10:13 AM
I don't think that kind of reasoning works with these cars. When it comes to physical capabilities, these cars are built for speed. Everything else is secondary, ESPECIALLY ride quality. Telling your opponent on the street or your buddy at the bar that it's ok you are slower because your car rides better doesn't work. you may as well try to justify it with tow ratings while you are at it.

Maybe things are different in Milwaukee, but for pony car enthusiasts on the street, either you're faster or you aren't. That's all there is. That's why people are willing to drive shitboxes with big motors (foxbody?). If you wanted a fast, nice riding car, you were shopping in the wrong class. Neither of these cars can do both - they are all about looking cool and going fast. That's what the pony car was created for.

OK...can you explain why the Camaro SS is consistently outselling the Mustang GT despite being the slower of the two?

I agree with you when it comes to bragging rights, but bragging rights don't directly translate to sales. The best CAR sells. The best CAR has the best combination of straight line power, styling, amenities, ride quality, and price.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 10:16 AM
Like I said, the cars are made to go fast and look cool. You don't buy one if you aren't looking for at least one of the two. I have to assume that since the Mustang outperforms (out-accelerates) the Camaro, it's because most find the Camaro to be more attractively styled. The rest, those who prioritize performance, are probably buying the Mustang.

M5eater
06-22-12, 10:18 AM
Once again I find myself saying "see I told you so". It was pretty obvious to me that even Ford was a little scared of the ZL1 when they decided to bump the GT500's power by 100HP. That's a pretty damn extreme motor (and very impressive to boot)...I can't see Ford going to those lengths if they really were confident they had an answer for the ZL1.

It is absolutely true that handling doesn't sell cars in America. HP sells cars. However, to say that the only thing the ZL1 does is handle is insulting. There are now THREE comparison's out between these cars, and they ALL agree: the ONLY thing that the GT500 can do better than the ZL1 is accelerate in a straight line. The ZL1 is a better CAR. That, my friends, will sell. It's got a much better suspension, so not only does it handle better on the track, but it also handles better on the street...it's a far more liveable car. The styling is subjective, but clearly the general public likes the Camaro better (as evidenced by yearly sales), and to top it all off, the comparably equipped ZL1 is something like $8k cheaper. Is it worth it to pay $8k more for a small acceleration advantage? I suppose that's up to the buyer, but I personally don't see how it could be.

That said, it's really retarded to make a big deal out of which one of these cars is better...they are both so far into the stratosphere that we should be pinching ourselves because having two $60k ~600hp cars available to us is a dream come true. If not for their interiors, i'd happily rock either one of them.

Car rag reviews and 15minuite test drives do not sell cars. They help certinally, but I've never met someone tell me their primary decision for a purchase was because C&D said it was 7/10ths faster than their other consideration.

Styling, headlines, price and impulsive emotional people (like me..) are what sell cars. The ZL1 has 3/4 going for it, but to suggest that it's going to outsell the shelby or that it's a swooping victory here? I wouldn't say that. The stang (imo) is pretty fantastic looking right now. What reviews like this *will* do is put the ZL1 into the consideration with a whole new market- 60-70K sports coupes. Maybe the person looking for a used Z06,911, or GT-R might consider a ZL1. It's not going to persuade established demographs like drew is pointing out. Those people only care about one thing, and the ZL1 doesn't have it. The people that choose the ZL1 for those reasons anyway are loyal purchasers.



OK...can you explain why the Camaro SS is consistently outselling the Mustang GT despite being the slower of the two
There's a lot of pent-up buyers from the 8 year hiatus from the last F-body. I would say that accounts for at least a small portion of this. Styling would be the other reason. The mustang has been a gentle evolution from an 05 restyle. The Camaro is a *brand* new design that still looks pretty good.

The Raven
06-22-12, 10:20 AM
Like I said, the cars are made to go fast and look cool. I have to assume that since the Mustang outperforms (out-accelerates) the Camaro, it's because most find the Camaro to be more attractively styled. The rest, those who prioritize performance, are probably buying the Mustang.

So then you do agree with what i'm saying...it's NOT all about straight line power.


Car rag reviews and 15minuite test drives do not sell cars.

Styling, headlines, and impulse buys are what sell cars.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 10:23 AM
So then you do agree with what i'm saying...it's NOT all about straight line power.


If you want to include aesthetics, yes. However, I thought we were keeping the scope to the car's mechanical limitations (power (me), handling and ride(you) had been the focus here). You can't translate styling into numbers and compare to a benchmark like power or track times, so there's not much we can say about it here (nor does the posted review).

The Raven
06-22-12, 10:36 AM
If you want to include aesthetics, yes. However, I thought we were keeping the scope to the car's mechanical limitations (power (me), handling and ride(you) had been the focus here). You can't translate styling into numbers and compare to a benchmark like power or track times, so there's not much we can say about it here.

No, as i've been saying, the better CAR sells. The argument here is what factors go into the abstract "car" as we use the term here. Here's how I rank the factors, as I see them being valued in the general public's eye:

1 - Price
2 - Styling
3 - Power
4 - Amenities
5 - Ride quality/liveability (also includes handling to a small degree, but mostly only in how it affects overall ride quality)

Notice, based on the three comparisons we have at this point, that the only category where the GT500 clearly wins is power. That's what I am saying.

ben.gators
06-22-12, 10:39 AM
Well, the main question here is are GT500 and ZL-1 a "sports car" or they are still considered as a "muscle car"? If the buyer looks for a muscle car, GT500 seems to be the better car, otherwise the ZL-1 is the superior sports car.

The other thing I will say is that, in my humble opinion, the horsepower rating and its importance are overrated! Effective utilization of available HP and torque is as important as the HP and torque ratings! I read that in some AMG MB and M series BMWs models the engine torque has been limited and reduced to increase the traction! I think when you go above 400-500 HP, additional HP or torque will not result in considerable amount of performance improvement!

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 10:45 AM
No, as i've been saying, the better CAR sells. The argument here is what factors go into the abstract "car" as we use the term here. Here's how I rank the factors, as I see them being valued in the general public's eye:

1 - Price
2 - Styling
3 - Power
4 - Amenities
5 - Ride quality/liveability (also includes handling to a small degree, but mostly only in how it affects overall ride quality)

Notice, based on the three comparisons we have at this point, that the only category where the GT500 clearly wins is power. That's what I am saying.

I understand, but we can't include styling in our comparison because it's too subjective. we can physically list, gauge, and compare most of the other categories, but we can't draw conclusions on an opinionated category like styling. I could say the Mustang accelerates better. No one could deny. If I said the Mustang looked better, there could be 5 fingers pointing back at me saying otherwise - or vice versa. It's not worth considering in an online discussion - it won't evolve into anything concrete.

Based on the hard facts (numbers, results) that the article posted has provided (they have not and cannot include styling), I feel that the Mustang does the job of being a pony car better than the Camaro as I feel that in this class of car, numbers are more important than they are in pretty much any other. They have few other merits. If someone was truly interested in more than just numbers and raw performance (such as ride quality or interior comfort), they'd probably opt for something outside of the Mustang or Camaro, such as the V.

M5eater
06-22-12, 10:56 AM
Based on the hard facts that the article posted has provided (they have not and cannot include styling), I feel that the Mustang does it's job better than the Camaro.

purely from a driveability perspective, I would agree, but there are things that the Shelby fails in comparison to the Zl1

Certinally the seats are better, it feels more open up front, it sounds better, and you can option out more toys.

However, the Camaro rides better, you don't have to worry about looking like an idiot every time you come up to a stop light and chirp the tires in 1st, the gear shifts as stated prior are better, the interior is better.

M5eater
06-22-12, 10:57 AM
double post....

The Raven
06-22-12, 10:59 AM
I understand, but we can't include styling in our comparison because it's too subjective. we can physically list, gauge, and compare most of the other categories, but we can't draw conclusions on an opinionated category like styling. I could say the Mustang accelerates better. No one could deny. If I said the Mustang looked better, there could be 5 fingers pointing back at me saying otherwise - or vice versa. It's not worth considering in an online discussion - it won't evolve into anything concrete.

Based on the hard facts that the article posted has provided (they have not and cannot include styling), I feel that the Mustang does it's job better than the Camaro.

Well then that settles it, we simply disagree. IMO, even a "muscle car" is about more than straight line power in 2012. People expect much more from their vehicles these days, and that includes Camaros and Mustangs. The people who buy these cars aren't mullet-sporting 30-year-olds who still live in mom's basement anymore. Yeah these buyers are still looking for the most power and style for their dollar, but they also expect a comfortable car and a good degree of handling now. Taken alone, the GT500 accomplishes all this phenomenally well, especially the power generation part of the equation. However, the GT500 is not alone. The ZL1 simply does almost everything better, losing only in straight line acceleration...and even then not by alot. The fact that it does all this at a better price is what cements it's status. Styling, as you said, is subjective and I agree wholeheartedly. However even if we completely disregard styling, the ZL1 still holds enough cards to edge out the GT500.

I suppose it's only tradition that there be enough doubt in comparison results to leave room for good arguments for either car. That's a big part of what makes the names "Camaro" and "Mustang" such automotive legends.

Florian
06-22-12, 11:03 AM
so driving around a parking lot is the test? sheesh. That test is so full of shenanigans its not funny. Wait til the real mags get their hands on them. Inside line and Automobile mag are known to have the worst test drivers of the mags out there.....sit tight, things will change.

F

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 11:12 AM
....but there are things that the Shelby fails in comparison to the Zl1



And just to make it clear, I do agree. The ZL1 DOES do some things better. I just don't think they are all that important to the demographic, especially when the acceleration gap is as large as it is. Again, this isn't like the Shelby wins by a nose - a half second off when in the 4's 0-60 and 11's in the 1/4 is A LOT for a factory car. I think it's too much of a gap for the Camaro to offset with some nice seats.

Anyone who has run a car at the track will agree that once you get into the 11-12 second range and below, the effort needed to gain even 10th's of a second goes up significantly. The ZL1 gets raped. It will need either a significant power boost or an extreme diet to at least break even.

M5eater
06-22-12, 11:13 AM
so driving around a parking lot is the test? sheesh. That test is so full of shenanigans its not funny. Wait til the real mags get their hands on them. Inside line and Automobile mag are known to have the worst test drivers of the mags out there.....sit tight, things will change.

F

Why would they change? If track comparisons are the order of the day, I'm unsure it's going to change at all..The ZL1 is faster on a roadcourse than a GT500. That's never been in dispute.


And just to make it clear, I do agree. The ZL1 DOES do some things better. I just don't think they are all that important to the demographic.
I think you may have a bigger chance at being right. Clearly if nurburgring cars didn't sell every manufacturer from honda to Ferrari wouldn't tune their vehicles around it. I'm unsure however, if people really care about that in their 600HP road-racers. Even CTS-V owners are guilty of forgetting that their car's are sub 8minuite vehicles. What are the first mods everyone does afterall? More powar!

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 11:25 AM
. What are the first mods everyone does afterall? More powar!

This is also an important point that I've made before, but have forgotten this time. I concur.

The Raven
06-22-12, 11:50 AM
Anyone who has run a car at the track will agree that once you get into the 11-12 second range and below, the effort needed to gain even 10th's of a second goes up significantly. The ZL1 gets raped. It will need either a significant power boost or an extreme diet to at least break even.

What's the best time posted so far by the GT500? 11.7? I could be wrong because i haven't had time to read every word of every comparison done so far, but the best I remember seeing is 11.7 @ something like 124mph. The ZL1 has already gone 11.9 @ 120mph (there was a thread about this a month ago). So AS OF RIGHT NOW (and even I know this will change continually for both cars as time passes), it's like a 2 tenths advantage to the GT500. Now I don't want to sound like that's nothing...two tenths in the area of 120mph is a solid win that's not going to be overcome by better shifting/conditions, etc. However, it's no ass-raping either, nor is it enough of a difference to in itself be worth $8k more.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 11:52 AM
You can't compare results from seperate tests though - that doesn't work. You can't just standardize one number on this particular test and compare it to your favorite number that someone else came up with. This test was a fair comparison, not two individual reviews - on the same track, under the same conditions, same drivers, these cars were a half second apart.

You can't pick and choose random results to benefit your point.

The Raven
06-22-12, 11:56 AM
You can't compare results from seperate tests though - that doesn't work. On the same track, under the same conditions, same drivers, these cars were a half second apart. You can't pick and choose random results to benefit your point.

Fair enough...however the Motor Trend test has the ZL1 at 12.4 and the GT500 at 12.1. That's same driver/track/day.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 12:03 PM
Nice. A little better, but that's still a lot of ground to cover for the ZL1.

It'll be interesting to see how it all works out in the end.

The Raven
06-22-12, 12:10 PM
Nice. A little better, but that's still a lot of ground to cover for the ZL1.

It'll be interesting to see how it all works out in the end.

Oh I don't disagree with you...i'm not trying to trivialize the GT500's power advantage. A win is a win, it's just not an "ass-raping" in this case, and IMO, not worth $8k more in itself.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 12:18 PM
Yeah, understandable from your previous posts and the cars listed under your name.

Mods are expensive, and many people will happily pay more than $8k in mods for up to an extra half of a second. It's really not that much money to someone looking for the performance.

Going fast has never been cheap.

The Raven
06-22-12, 12:26 PM
Yeah, understandable from your previous posts and the cars listed under your name.

Many people will easily pay more than $8k in mods for 3 tenths of a second. $8k won't be much to someone looking for the performance.

Yup...Ford guys will be more than happy to pay it, because honestly, if you can afford $55k, you more than likely can afford $63k.

Now, I want to preface what i'm about to say by saying that I am the first to bail on an argument when guys start to talk about modding, because as I always say, once you start modding, all bets are off - the deepest pockets will win everytime. However, there is one other valid point that has not been mentioned. Something that must be considered when you argue from the point of view of the "Maximum HP for the dollar" enthusiast. What would the results of this contest be if an owner was free to spend that extra $8k in power mods to his ZL1? Any enthusiast looking at these cars will see that, because with $8k in mods, you can EASILY bridge the power gap, and then it seems to me that you have the best of both worlds. I.E. a $63k ZL1 will destroy a $63K GT500.

I know I just dumped a gallon of diesel on the fire, but ah what the hell.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 12:38 PM
Ah, so this is a Ford vs Chevy discussion for you. Now this makes a lot more sense.

As for the above questions - I don't know, and it's not a concern. I was more interested in how the demographic will respond to the clear differences between the two. As for which one has more potential or is "better" in specific situations, I won't defend or discredit either. I just don't care about the two cars themselves.

My comment about expensive mods wasn't an effort to go off on a tangent - it was merely a way of stating that people WILL pay decent amounts of money for increased performance. A higher sticker on the faster car is nothing surprising and seems in-line with the what's available.

That said, I'm sure there will large amounts of aftermarket support for both and we'll see some impressive results.

The Raven
06-22-12, 12:53 PM
Ah, so this is a Ford vs Chevy discussion for you. Now this makes a lot more sense.

As for the above questions - I don't know, and it's not a concern. I was more interested in how the demographic will respond to the clear differences between the two. As for which one has more potential or is "better" in specific situations, I won't defend or discredit either. I just don't care about the two cars themselves.

My comment about expensive mods wasn't an effort to go off on a tangent - it was merely a way of stating that people WILL pay decent amounts of money for increased performance. A higher sticker on the faster car is nothing surprising and seems in-line with the what's available.

That said, I'm sure there will large amounts of aftermarket support for both and we'll see some impressive results.

It really has nothing to do with what badge the car carries...what i'm saying translates to any rivalry in the automotive world. It's especially pertinent to your argument, since you were arguing from the point of view of the enthusiast looking for get the most power from his dollar. So as I see it, from that perspective, you go shopping with $63k to spend. You can either buy the GT500 right off the showroom floor and be done with it, OR you can buy the ZL1 and then go to town on the motor with $8000 to spend. In my mind, if i'm trying to wring every single HP that I can out of my $63k, i'm going with the ZL1 and $8k in mods, since I know I can beat 662hp for $8k. Right?

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 12:59 PM
::shrug::

This is beyond me. If a lot of the new Camaro w/ warranty sales are going to fellas with a plan to bring an extra $8k in their pocket when the pick up the car, skip the driveway, and head right to the speedshop to play catchup, I've lost all faith in the consumer.

662hp for 8k? Not sure if you can beat that. Matching hp statistics shouldn't be your goal, though. High HP doesn't necessarily win you races or glory. Fast times do. They aren't automatically proportional.

The Raven
06-22-12, 01:22 PM
::shrug::

This is beyond me. If a lot of the new Camaro w/ warranty sales are going to fellas with a plan to bring an extra $8k in their pocket when the pick up the car, skip the driveway, and head right to the speedshop to play catchup, I've lost all faith in the consumer.

Point taken...I would like to note here that I don't necessarily agree with the person who buys a brand new car and rips open the motor before it's got 1000 miles on it. But there are plenty who do it. Like the guys who buy a brand new Z06 for $80k, send it to LPE for $30k in mods, then drive it for two months and sell it for $68k to buy a Viper for $90k and sent it to Hennessey for $30k in mods, drive it for four months then sell it for $75k and repeat the pattern into infinity. I don't care how much money you have...that's stupid.



Matching hp statistics shouldn't be your goal, though. High HP doesn't necessarily win you races or glory. Fast times do. They aren't automatically proportional.

Fully agreed...there is so much more to a car than it's HP rating. But if you are like many enthusiasts, buying the car that gives you the most HP for your dollar, then you ARE buying a car on statistics.

gary88
06-22-12, 01:25 PM
You guys care way too much about numbers.

Your average buyer of either isn't going to modify it and race in NASA.

They're both stupidly fast and overall great cars, buy the one you like better and forget about measuring your e-peen.

M5eater
06-22-12, 02:18 PM
I like pop-tarts.

drewsdeville
06-22-12, 02:21 PM
toasted?

CadillacLuke24
06-22-12, 04:09 PM
:histeric:

M5eater
06-22-12, 04:24 PM
toasted?

You can eat them raw?

Sick.

thebigjimsho
06-22-12, 05:58 PM
I would've been one to consider a GT500 over a ZL1. Although I'd prefer a Boss anyway.

But I'm not a great drag racer. If you put me in a GT500 I'd get whooped by a great driver in a ZL1. So the fact the ZL1 is "close" in the 1/4 and trounces it on the track has swayed my thinking.

And $8G isn't needed. For about $4G, you can get near 650hp on an LSA. My V with 630hp, with a lousy 60ft and bad time, will still trap at 118mph. A ZL1 with comparable mods should be near GT500 territory.

And you still outhandle it...

Florian
06-22-12, 06:07 PM
so to summarize.

ZL1 beats GT500 by 1/2 second around track
GT500 beats ZL1 at track by 7 tenths and nearly 10mph trap speed.

The Magnaride is a great asset to have, but 99% of street racing is done in a straight line. Take the GT500 and collect your pinks all day long.

F

M5eater
06-22-12, 06:24 PM
Who watches Pinks anymore? Seriously?

Florian
06-22-12, 06:25 PM
very good question...is it even on?

F

JimmyH
06-22-12, 06:58 PM
Car rag reviews and 15minuite test drives do not sell cars.

+1000, at least, not to enthusiasts


However, the Camaro rides better

As someone who puts almost 500 miles/week on one, I can confirm this is 100% true.



Wait til the real mags get their hands on them. Inside line and Automobile mag are known to have the worst test drivers of the mags out there.....sit tight, things will change.

The "real mags"? RT? MT? CD? Their test drivers are all guys who washed out of being racing car drivers. And now get paid to write at a high-school reading level by whomever is willing to buy their ad space.

JimmyH
06-22-12, 06:58 PM
But you are all forgetting the most important reason why the ZL1 will easily outsell the GT500; it offers an automatic.

M5eater
06-22-12, 08:55 PM
very good question...is it even on?

F

I haven't seen it on, but I actually don't watch speed that much anymore. I'm hooked on Velocity.


But you are all forgetting the most important reason why the ZL1 will easily outsell the GT500; it offers an automatic.
true.. GM expects most of these will be Autos. Isn't the Shelby supposed to be getting an auto though?

The Raven
06-22-12, 09:45 PM
so to summarize.

ZL1 beats GT500 by 1/2 second around track
GT500 beats ZL1 at track by 7 tenths and nearly 10mph trap speed.

The Magnaride is a great asset to have, but 99% of street racing is done in a straight line. Take the GT500 and collect your pinks all day long.

F

The ZL1 beats the GT500 by 1/2 second PER LAP...on a short course nonetheless.
Where was the GT500 7 tenths faster in the 1320? The biggest gap i've seen in any single test is 5 tenths. The smallest is 3. There have only been three comparisons so far.

JimmyH
06-22-12, 10:11 PM
Did Ford ever post their nurburgring time? It's been the big buzz around the internet that Ford would not release the GT500's ring time. Of course the speculation has been because it was greater than the ZL1's time. But I haven't been paying attention recently.


true.. GM expects most of these will be Autos. Isn't the Shelby supposed to be getting an auto though?

Judging by the V2 forum here, it seems to me that most folks with this type of car want an auto for better 1/4 times.

Does Ford have an automatic (that wasn't designed for a truck) that will handle the GT500's power? I think that is the question.

M5eater
06-22-12, 10:23 PM
Does Ford have an automatic (that wasn't designed for a truck) that will handle the GT500's power? I think that is the question.
They don't. I must have remembered it wrong.


Did Ford ever post their nurburgring time? It's been the big buzz around the internet that Ford would not release the GT500's ring time.
never have for any mustang iirc.

The Raven
06-23-12, 09:52 AM
Did Ford ever post their nurburgring time? It's been the big buzz around the internet that Ford would not release the GT500's ring time. Of course the speculation has been because it was greater than the ZL1's time. But I haven't been paying attention recently.

I originally was of the opinion that Ford just never ran the car for the best time it could. Lots of development work is done at the ring, and not everyone runs their car to get the best full lap time. They use different sections of the course to test certain aspects of the car's setup. That's why the ring is such a great development tool...it offers, at some point, just about every conceivable real world handling scenario.

However now, having seen the GT500's track performance, i'm thinking it may have simply been that they couldn't beat the ZL1's time, so they keep it under wraps. It does make perfect sense.

MrHolland
06-24-12, 06:20 AM
I do find the Vettes are beginning to catch my eye more often these days. I just keep telling myself "you're not old enough for that." If it came down to it though, Id have a Vette sitting in my garage since Ive always told my wife No Fords!!!

The Raven
07-02-12, 10:43 PM
Motor Trend's own test is officially out (the one that all the Ford guys were waiting for because "MT has real drivers"):

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/viewall.html

Winner: ZL1

The GT500 was actually able to eek out ONE faster lap than the ZL1 on Laguna Seca (a very fast course). However, with each successive lap, the ZL1 put more and more distance on the GT500. Seems like the Mustang runs out of steam alot quicker. Also important to note, at the fastest point on the course (apex of turn 1) the GT500 is only faster by 6mph. This speaks volumes about the ZL1's suspension.

I'd say it's official at this point:

GT500 owns the strip
ZL1 owns the circuit

Can we live with that?

Destroyer
07-03-12, 12:56 AM
I'd take the Mustang over the ill-styled Z28 anyday. This is coming from the owner of several of either models and currently a Camaro. :)

93DevilleUSMC
07-03-12, 01:12 AM
I'd take the Mustang over the ill-styled Z28 anyday. This is coming from the owner of several of either models and currently a Camaro. :)

Really, the Z/28 would have been a bad name for this car. The first Z/28 was a stripped-down racer. The next Z/28 should be the same. Ford stuck to their roots with the Boss 302, and I think Chevy should do the same. Naming their "handling package" the 1LE doesn't count.

Florian
07-03-12, 10:57 AM
The ZL1 beats the GT500 by 1/2 second PER LAP...on a short course nonetheless.
Where was the GT500 7 tenths faster in the 1320? The biggest gap i've seen in any single test is 5 tenths. The smallest is 3. There have only been three comparisons so far.

The Zl1 won on 1 of 3 racetracks - and the GT500 beat it every quarter mile.

F

Florian
07-03-12, 11:01 AM
Motor Trend's own test is officially out (the one that all the Ford guys were waiting for because "MT has real drivers"):

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/viewall.html

Winner: ZL1

The GT500 was actually able to eek out ONE faster lap than the ZL1 on Laguna Seca (a very fast course). However, with each successive lap, the ZL1 put more and more distance on the GT500. Seems like the Mustang runs out of steam alot quicker. Also important to note, at the fastest point on the course (apex of turn 1) the GT500 is only faster by 6mph. This speaks volumes about the ZL1's suspension.

I'd say it's official at this point:

GT500 owns the strip
ZL1 owns the circuit

Can we live with that?

the GT500 didnt "run out of steam" the brakes were shot after 5 magazines flogged the shit out of it. A simple set of brake pads wouldve changed the outcome considerably. The ZL1's only claim to fame is the magnaride which everyone loves. Hell, the GT500 doesnt even have the gas guzzler tax due to the much better mileage - yes, nearly 100 more hp AND better mileage. None of the mags mention that.

F

M5eater
07-03-12, 12:51 PM
the GT500 didnt "run out of steam" the brakes were shot after 5 magazines flogged the shit out of it. A simple set of brake pads wouldve changed the outcome considerably. The ZL1's only claim to fame is the magnaride which everyone loves. Hell, the GT500 doesnt even have the gas guzzler tax due to the much better mileage - yes, nearly 100 more hp AND better mileage. None of the mags mention that.

F

Is that necessarly relevent though? People who buy 580 or 662 HP muscle cars do not daily drive them. Aside from the fact that EPA numbers for sports cars are almost irrelevent, unless you actually like putting around in them like they're a civic or something and acutally *are* looking for great mpg.

My point being, these are not compact family sedans, I don't know anyone that makes a buy like this and factors in fuel economy.

JimmyH
07-03-12, 12:56 PM
Both the ZL1 and GT500 are way too ricer looking for my tastes. I still prefer the relatively sedate styling of my SS over the ZL1 or any current Mustang. Especially the hideously done Boss Laguna Seca. Ack.

And yeah, I highly doubt anyone buying a ZL1 or GT500 is interested in mileage. Myself otoh, I am averaging well over 24 mpg in my 24 hwy rated SS.

thebigjimsho
07-03-12, 12:57 PM
The Zl1 won on 1 of 3 racetracks - and the GT500 beat it every quarter mile.

Fpfft. The ZL1 wins on the street. Which is where 99.92% of the activity will take place.

thebigjimsho
07-03-12, 12:58 PM
the GT500 didnt "run out of steam" the brakes were shot after 5 magazines flogged the shit out of it. A simple set of brake pads wouldve changed the outcome considerably. The ZL1's only claim to fame is the magnaride which everyone loves. Hell, the GT500 doesnt even have the gas guzzler tax due to the much better mileage - yes, nearly 100 more hp AND better mileage. None of the mags mention that.

FIt was attributed to brake ducting the Camaro HAS and the GT500 HASN'T. The brake feel was always better in the ZL1, too...

JimmyH
07-03-12, 12:59 PM
Motor Trend's own test is officially out (the one that all the Ford guys were waiting for because "MT has real drivers"):

Are they talking about this guy?
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=99b92d6e152eb9d1dde89f41fbc2db4b&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cadillacforums.com%2Fforums%2 Fcadillac-ats-general-discussion-forum%2F263289-oops-motor-trend-flips-ats.html&v=1&libid=1341331139489&out=http%3A%2F%2Fjalopnik.com%2F5921693%2Fjournali st-flips-cadillac-ats-in-crash-17-miles-from-race-track&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cadillacforums.com%2Fforums%2 Fcadillac-ats-general-discussion-forum%2F&title=oops%20Motor%20Trend%20flips%20ATS&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fjalopnik.com%2F5921693%2Fjournali ...rom-race-track&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13413311445561

thebigjimsho
07-03-12, 01:00 PM
the GT500 didnt "run out of steam" the brakes were shot after 5 magazines flogged the shit out of it. A simple set of brake pads wouldve changed the outcome considerably. The ZL1's only claim to fame is the magnaride which everyone loves. Hell, the GT500 doesnt even have the gas guzzler tax due to the much better mileage - yes, nearly 100 more hp AND better mileage. None of the mags mention that.

FActually, they do. But they also mention the gearing(which gives it it's deadly 0-60 time with no shift and uber-top speed) also doesn't feel as useful on the road.

The Raven
07-03-12, 02:57 PM
Are they talking about this guy?

WOW. The story of the first wreck of any big-deal car always gets attention. But I can't remember the last time I saw a story about a JOURNALIST being the driver.


Actually, they do. But they also mention the gearing(which gives it it's deadly 0-60 time with no shift and uber-top speed) also doesn't feel as useful on the road.

Looks like Florian has become an official Ford nutswinger. Seeing as he has a GT500 on order, I can't say I blame him. Though there's no reason to be all up-in-arms about these tests...no one is disputing that the GT500 is the faster car. For some people that's enough, and that's fine. But for most of the world, things like price, driveability, comfort, amenities, and style matter just as much. That's why the modern automotive journalist doesn't simply tick off a list of performance test results and declare a winner. In 1998, the car with more HP was the winner. In 2012, we demand far more from our performance vehicles, thus the picture is not as clear as it used to be.

M5eater
07-03-12, 03:10 PM
Are they talking about this guy?
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=99b92d6e152eb9d1dde89f41fbc2db4b&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cadillacforums.com%2Fforums%2 Fcadillac-ats-general-discussion-forum%2F263289-oops-motor-trend-flips-ats.html&v=1&libid=1341331139489&out=http%3A%2F%2Fjalopnik.com%2F5921693%2Fjournali st-flips-cadillac-ats-in-crash-17-miles-from-race-track&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cadillacforums.com%2Fforums%2 Fcadillac-ats-general-discussion-forum%2F&title=oops%20Motor%20Trend%20flips%20ATS&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fjalopnik.com%2F5921693%2Fjournali ...rom-race-track&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13413311445561

LOLOL How could I have forgotten about this so soon!?

JimmyH
07-03-12, 04:04 PM
Oh relax. F is not a nutswinger. He was one of the CTS-V pioneers. If I am not mistaken, weren't you the first one to install a diff cradle F? And the first to discover what spectacular junk they were? :lol:

You cannot fault the Mustang. I took a 2011 GT for a test drive, and it IS all that. There is no way you would guess it's live axle. Except maybe for the ride quality. My SS has a much smoother ride, and much quieter cabin. But for the majority of pony car buyers, those are not accolades.

concorso
07-03-12, 04:31 PM
Really, the Z/28 would have been a bad name for this car. The first Z/28 was a stripped-down racer. The next Z/28 should be the same. Ford stuck to their roots with the Boss 302, and I think Chevy should do the same. Naming their "handling package" the 1LE doesn't count.Z/28...LS7 + ZL1 suspension,brakes,diff, etc...stereo delete, lightweight 18's, sticky rubbber!

JimmyH
07-03-12, 04:38 PM
A Z28 would be most awesome. LS7 would make it too expensive though. Take the current 1SS, strip all the sound insulation, make the roof and decklid aluminum, put in some manual, lightweight sparco seats, manual only, no sunroof, tune the LS3 for another 30 hp, and you'd have 5.0 killer. Plus the ZL1 suspension (SS already gets the new ZL1 steering) and lightweight 18s like you said. And add lightweight exhaust with headers.

The Raven
07-03-12, 05:22 PM
But for the majority of pony car buyers, those are not accolades.

Yeah they are...I WAS a pony car buyer, until I drove the Camaro SS and 2012 GT500. I will not be buying EITHER ONE because of their interiors. Fantastic power, handling, and looks all around, but i've crossed them off my list based solely on their interiors. This from a guy who has owned five f-bodies (including two first gens) in his life.

JimmyH
07-03-12, 05:25 PM
I don't understand all the hate for the 5th gen Camaro interior. I know it isn't pretty. And there's lots of hard plastic. But I spend very, very little time looking at, or caressing, my dashboard. I love the radio/hvac unit. I can control every single function without taking my eyes off the road. My biggest beef is the arm rest that's basically behind the front seats.

The Raven
07-03-12, 07:06 PM
The problem with the Camaro is not quality. The interior is great in terms of fit and finish and level of materials. The problem is it feels like an upscale vault. Despite the fact that there is plenty of room all around me, even above my head (which is a rarity for me in performance cars, i'm 6'2"), I still feel as cramped as I did in the Solstice GXP I test drove a few years ago. This is undoubtedly caused by the very high beltline that makes the car look so kickass. The seats in the Camaro are excellent though. I wanted to like it, but I just don't feel comfortable enough in it to buy one. The Mustang is a bit better in terms of perceived space, i don't feel claustraphobic in it...but the seats suck by modern standards, and ergonomics are still poor...again keeping me from being comfortable enough in it to want to own one.

JimmyH
07-03-12, 09:29 PM
They are the most comfortable seats I have owned. I know what you mean about the high beltline. I felt very closed in when I first got it. But you get used to it. Now, when I get in other cars, I feel over-exposed. The front seat area is relatively spacious (for a sports car) but it definitely comes at the expense of the rear seating area.

But most people seem to hate on the interior because it's cheap looking. Which is probably why GM plastered leather and alcantara all over the interior of the ZL1 and overdid it in my opinion.

thebigjimsho
07-03-12, 10:25 PM
It was attributed to brake ducting the Camaro HAS and the GT500 HASN'T. The brake feel was always better in the ZL1, too...And I just finished up on the C&D article. They say the GT500 has fade-free brakes, but that its lap times were inconsistent. So I'm not sure what that's about.

Also, the GT500 couldn't come close to 200mph when C&D tested it...



As for a Z28, I'd wait for the soon-to-come Alpha chassis Camaro to get an LS7, or similar.

talismandave
07-03-12, 10:26 PM
As a long time Indy racing follower you have to look no further than Patrick Bedard if you have any doubt's about car mag guys prowess at high performance driving, or lack there of.

C&C
07-04-12, 06:24 AM
I also believe that they are saving/reserving the "Z-28" name for the next generation (smaller/lighter) Camaro performance model. (Ford next Mustang will also go on a diet; so the 'pony' wars will continue.)

concorso
07-04-12, 11:53 AM
A Z28 would be most awesome. LS7 would make it too expensive though. Take the current 1SS, strip all the sound insulation, make the roof and decklid aluminum, put in some manual, lightweight sparco seats, manual only, no sunroof, tune the LS3 for another 30 hp, and you'd have 5.0 killer. Plus the ZL1 suspension (SS already gets the new ZL1 steering) and lightweight 18s like you said. And add lightweight exhaust with headers.I dont know the differences between the engines in the Boss 302 and the regular GT, but it feels very different. I dont think the LS3 is enough for the Z/28. Id prefer the engine to be special.

thebigjimsho
07-04-12, 12:47 PM
I dont know the differences between the engines in the Boss 302 and the regular GT, but it feels very different. I dont think the LS3 is enough for the Z/28. Id prefer the engine to be special.

I don't think an LS7 would be too expensive in a few years...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-04-12, 01:05 PM
This copy of Car & Driver hasn't arrived to my house yet. I'm dying to read this comparison!!

thebigjimsho
07-04-12, 01:22 PM
Just got mine yesterday. First thing I did...

The Raven
07-04-12, 04:20 PM
And I just finished up on the C&D article. They say the GT500 has fade-free brakes, but that its lap times were inconsistent. So I'm not sure what that's about.

That's about live axle + way too much power. The ZL1 can put the power down a bit better when not going straight thanks to the IRS, and it's magic suspension takes care of the rest. That's where the consistency comes from.

JimmyH
07-04-12, 04:45 PM
I dont know the differences between the engines in the Boss 302 and the regular GT, but it feels very different. I dont think the LS3 is enough for the Z/28. Id prefer the engine to be special.

I believe the engines are identical. The boss just gets tuned for a little extra power.

JimmyH
07-04-12, 04:49 PM
I don't think an LS7 would be too expensive in a few years...

It's hand built. I don't see a way for that to get cheaper.

CadillacLuke24
07-05-12, 02:03 AM
I believe the engines are identical. The boss just gets tuned for a little extra power.

Yeah that. Computer tuning these days is redonkulous. You also get a spiffy track key that selects the track tune, and a regular key that I believe selects the regular GT tune. Like my buddy said, I'd throw the other one away :lol:

thebigjimsho
07-05-12, 02:44 PM
I believe the engines are identical. The boss just gets tuned for a little extra power.

Incorrect.

CadillacLuke24
07-05-12, 04:12 PM
Different Intake?

JimmyH
07-05-12, 05:58 PM
He just likes to disagree with me in general.

93DevilleUSMC
07-05-12, 06:26 PM
Difference between the ZL-1 and GT500? Chevrolet has proven every performance claim it has made about the ZL-1. Ford hasn't done so with the GT500.

thebigjimsho
07-05-12, 08:56 PM
He just likes to disagree with me in general.

Incorrect.

Destroyer
07-06-12, 12:15 AM
The Mustang pulls more than 1g vs .9g on the skid pad for the Camaro and it completely blows it away in a good 'ole drag race. The Mustang is the better car in every respect. Any rag that says the Camaro wins is getting paid by GM cause everybody knows what a musclecar should be: Mustang.

JimmyH
07-06-12, 12:28 PM
Neither the Camaro, nor the Mustang completely fulfills the definition of musclecar. The Mustang was NEVER a "musclecar".

JimmyH
07-06-12, 12:29 PM
And no car rag is getting paid anything by GM. That money all comes from BMUU.

The Raven
07-06-12, 01:30 PM
The Mustang pulls more than 1g vs .9g on the skid pad for the Camaro and it completely blows it away in a good 'ole drag race. The Mustang is the better car in every respect. Any rag that says the Camaro wins is getting paid by GM cause everybody knows what a musclecar should be: Mustang.

Yet every single driver in every comparison thus far would take the ZL1 as their weapon of choice. As a former professional driver with real sanctioned racing experience, I can tell you this - all personal bias aside, a driver wants to win, and if you want to win, you take the car that you feel like you can win in. During my racing days I was a GM fan through and through...yet I have driven (by choice) Fords, Hondas, and Nissans in some of my best showings. Stats are everything on the internet...but on the track, the car that can get to the finish line first is the winner...regardless of what numbers said car was able to muster in focused testing. Based on what i've read, I get the feeling that I too would take the ZL1 on raceday if I wanted the best chance of winning. If you are racing against me and decide to take the GT500, i'm all for it. :thumbsup:

ShapeShifter
07-06-12, 03:00 PM
For me the hardest thing is trying to accept them being called Muscle Cars. Guess they'll always be Pony Cars to me, even though they have Muscle Car HP. Like the flat out brute straight-line HP of the Mustang, but my no track driving style and long distance need for more comfort thinks the Camaro would be better for me. Purely a guess, as I have no seat time in either.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-06-12, 03:04 PM
So, what exactly is the old school difference between muscle car & pony car? I always thought pony cars were just the smaller class of muscle cars?

"Bigger" muscle car: Chevelle, Charger, Torino, 442, Gran Sport, GTX, Road Runner, etc
Pony car: Camaro, Mustang, Trans Am, Challenger, Cuda
"compact" muscle car: Nova, etc.

Correct?

ShapeShifter
07-06-12, 03:20 PM
When the first Mustang Pony Car was introduced by Ford, it was marketed as an affordable, highly styled compact car. Always sporty, but could be performance outfitted too. Competition with GM's Camaro's and Firebirds caused HP increases. Once Shelby got on board with Ford's Mustang Program, a whole new window for HP opened and the Pony Cars achieved Muscle Car status. Well that's sort of how I remember their coming out.

JimmyH
07-06-12, 04:30 PM
I just call them performance cars.

thebigjimsho
07-06-12, 07:00 PM
The Mustang pulls more than 1g vs .9g on the skid pad for the Camaro and it completely blows it away in a good 'ole drag race. The Mustang is the better car in every respect. Any rag that says the Camaro wins is getting paid by GM cause everybody knows what a musclecar should be: Mustang.Um, what are you looking at? C&D has the GT500 at EXACTLY 1.00g and the ZL1 at .99g. Not more than .1 difference, but a .01g. And I guess you didn't read the C&D article. Or the Motor Trend article.

C&D said the ZL1 easily outhandled the GT500 around Grattan. They had the EXACT SAME lap time at Grattan because of the GT500's power. But, the ZL1 had more consistent laps.

As for Motor Trend, when they tested the lap times of the 2, they changed positions 12 times on an 11 turn track. The Camaro showed wildly higher g numbers in almost every corner and the GT500 would out-accelerate it down the straights. And, like in C&D, the ZL1 put up many more consistent lap times.

I don't know what world you live in, but for anyone that actually turns their cars from time to time, the ZL1 is CLEARLY the better handler. Maybe you should try it sometime...

thebigjimsho
07-06-12, 07:03 PM
Oh yeah, and that's EVERY rag that I've seen so far has the ZL1 on top.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-06-12, 07:04 PM
I know it's a small point, but I like the ZL-1 name much more. ZL-1 has that heritage of being the wildest, highest horsepower, most rare Camaro ever made. The GT500 has heritage as well, but it's not as...."pure"... as the ZL-1's.

Destroyer
07-07-12, 12:38 AM
The Zl1 won on 1 of 3 racetracks - and the GT500 beat it every quarter mile.

FYUP! This is what is needed to sell these cars. The Camaro is softer. :)

concorso
07-07-12, 10:09 AM
Yet every single driver in every comparison thus far would take the ZL1 as their weapon of choice. As a former professional driver with real sanctioned racing experience, I can tell you this - all personal bias aside, a driver wants to win, and if you want to win, you take the car that you feel like you can win in. During my racing days I was a GM fan through and through...yet I have driven (by choice) Fords, Hondas, and Nissans in some of my best showings. Stats are everything on the internet...but on the track, the car that can get to the finish line first is the winner...regardless of what numbers said car was able to muster in focused testing. Based on what i've read, I get the feeling that I too would take the ZL1 on raceday if I wanted the best chance of winning. If you are racing against me and decide to take the GT500, i'm all for it. :thumbsup:Actually, Chris Harris tested both and choose the GT500, but he did agree with the previous assessments of the cars. He liked the GT500 because it was a handful, and thought the Camaro was too driveable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrhW6W7eZDI
"Between them they have 1259 HP, and yet they cost alot less (combined) then a 997 Turbo S"

drewsdeville
07-07-12, 10:48 AM
That description is also what made the Viper legendary. In unskilled or unfamiliar hands, it was a monster. Not as streetable as, say, the Corvette, but a lot more fun to drive and a better performer in the right hands. Both skilled and unskilled drivers loved it for those tendencies.

That said, Like/Buy a pony car for what a pony car offers. For what it doesn't offer, buy something else. This class of car has inherent characteristics, and smooth rides and comfortable interiors are not/never were included. Looking for a combination of performance, streetability/neutral feeling, comfort, and performance? You are shopping in the wrong class - go look at a touring car. If everyone was expecting more than the traditional pony car, the pony car wouldn't exist - former Mustang drivers would now be parking CLK's in their garage.

From what I've read, I still believe the GT500 fulfills the role of a pony car better than the Camaro - it's a cheap, wild feeling, live axle drag king, unmatched at the stop light and local autocross event (which, for the most part, is the most action these will ever see). It's a small car with a big engine that feels borderline out of control (our society is addicted to this feeling). It's loud, it's flashy. It's an animal. Usually, that's exactly what pony car shoppers are looking for. With as many offerings as are available today, anyone who isn't looking for this, or is looking for something more, moves to an entirely different class.

brandondeleo
07-07-12, 11:56 AM
That description is also what made the Viper legendary.
:cloud9:

thebigjimsho
07-07-12, 02:14 PM
That description is also what made the Viper legendary. In unskilled or unfamiliar hands, it was a monster. Not as streetable as, say, the Corvette, but a lot more fun to drive and a better performer in the right hands. Both skilled and unskilled drivers loved it for those tendencies.

That said, Like/Buy a pony car for what a pony car offers. For what it doesn't offer, buy something else. This class of car has inherent characteristics, and smooth rides and comfortable interiors are not/never were included. Looking for a combination of performance, streetability/neutral feeling, comfort, and performance? You are shopping in the wrong class - go look at a touring car. If everyone was expecting more than the traditional pony car, the pony car wouldn't exist - former Mustang drivers would now be parking CLK's in their garage.

From what I've read, I still believe the GT500 fulfills the role of a pony car better than the Camaro - it's a cheap, wild feeling, live axle drag king, unmatched at the stop light and local autocross event (which, for the most part, is the most action these will ever see). It's a small car with a big engine that feels borderline out of control (our society is addicted to this feeling). It's loud, it's flashy. It's an animal. Usually, that's exactly what pony car shoppers are looking for. With as many offerings as are available today, anyone who isn't looking for this, or is looking for something more, moves to an entirely different class.

Yet, the next Mustang will have an IRS. Oh no, what to do?

thebigjimsho
07-07-12, 02:18 PM
These pony cars are a handful only because they have monster hp. These things are easier to drive than a Mustang or Camaro from 10 years ago. They have far more creature comforts than those cars could ever dream of.

Trying to justify the GT500 because it's harder edged than the Camaro and adhere to its "roots" and ignore these comparison tests is just laughable.

Ford fans will will buy the Ford, Chevy fans will buy the Chevy. Independent numbers fans will buy the Ford, independent driver's car fans will buy the Chevy.

Nuff said.

JimmyH
07-07-12, 02:59 PM
I promise you neither one of these cars will be very good autocross car. A high speed road course yes. But dodging cones; they will easily get handled by miatas.

thebigjimsho
07-07-12, 03:55 PM
Of course. So?

gdwriter
07-07-12, 05:33 PM
I promise you neither one of these cars will be very good autocross car. A high speed road course yes. But dodging cones; they will easily get handled by miatas.And if said driver is an out-of-control novice, some clown in a FWD Seville might be faster, too* :lol:












*At last month's autocross, my friend with the Honda S2000 hadn't raced in a couple of years, so he was rusty. His times:
97.994 | 90.189 | 77.724 | 76.443 First two runs had missed gates.

My times:
82.441 | 77.810 | 76.844 | 75.791 One cone on my first run.

talismandave
07-07-12, 08:18 PM
Damn I want an S2000.
(20 years ago when I was young enough to enjoy one.)

Two weeks and 8 pages, I would have thought you all would have come to an agreement by now....carry on....

JimmyH
07-07-12, 11:44 PM
Camaro vs mustang is about as polarizing as it gets.

thebigjimsho
07-07-12, 11:58 PM
Indeed.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-08-12, 03:27 AM
Apparently, we're taking in a 26k mile '08 Miata with the Gran Touring package (fully loaded)....I can't wait to FINALLY drive a Miata. I've been waiting so long for one to come in on trade.

The Raven
07-08-12, 11:54 PM
That description is also what made the Viper legendary. In unskilled or unfamiliar hands, it was a monster. Not as streetable as, say, the Corvette, but a lot more fun to drive and a better performer in the right hands. Both skilled and unskilled drivers loved it for those tendencies.

That said, Like/Buy a pony car for what a pony car offers. For what it doesn't offer, buy something else. This class of car has inherent characteristics, and smooth rides and comfortable interiors are not/never were included. Looking for a combination of performance, streetability/neutral feeling, comfort, and performance? You are shopping in the wrong class - go look at a touring car. If everyone was expecting more than the traditional pony car, the pony car wouldn't exist - former Mustang drivers would now be parking CLK's in their garage.

From what I've read, I still believe the GT500 fulfills the role of a pony car better than the Camaro - it's a cheap, wild feeling, live axle drag king, unmatched at the stop light and local autocross event (which, for the most part, is the most action these will ever see). It's a small car with a big engine that feels borderline out of control (our society is addicted to this feeling). It's loud, it's flashy. It's an animal. Usually, that's exactly what pony car shoppers are looking for. With as many offerings as are available today, anyone who isn't looking for this, or is looking for something more, moves to an entirely different class.

This is 2012. Pony car shoppers can't afford either the GT500 or ZL1. These cars (well at least the ZL1) are targeting different buyers. This is why it's pretty clear that the ZL1 is going to be the better seller. There are still lots of people out there that are looking for a ridiculous amount of HP and straight line speed. The problem is that the majority of those buyers can't afford a $60k car. It seems to me that GM figured that out during the Camaro's hiatus and realized that if they were going to sell a Camaro at a $55k price point (this even applies to the $40k SS), they were going to have to forget about those who USED to buy Camaros and target those who are now buying Vettes and Porsches (incidentally, most of these guys grew up admiring 1st gen Camaros). The SS has proved this approach to be a successful one. The ZL1 is simply fulfilling the expectations of the NEW Camaro (NOT PONY CAR) buyer. I don't feel that the GT500 does that quite as well. Because the GT500 is the most powerful Ford ever, with an engine that's impressive for ANY class of vehicle, it will sell. Though I think the ZL1 is going to sell on a completely different level. GM has hit a home run with the new Camaro in every facet possible...enthusiasts may not be completely happy, but that means next to nothing. The general public loves the car, and that's all GM needs.

CadillacLuke24
07-09-12, 04:36 AM
Neither the Camaro, nor the Mustang completely fulfills the definition of musclecar. The Mustang was NEVER a "musclecar".

Musclecar: 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle Super Sport, equipped with a 454 cubic inch displacement pushrod V8, cowl induction, Muncie 4-speed "Rock Crusher" manual transmission, and F41 option code handling package.

Give 'em hell Gary! I bet you can humiliate SEVERAL of those ponycar noobs!!

brandondeleo
07-09-12, 04:52 AM
I'd rather have a 500ci '70 Eldorado any day.

thebigjimsho
07-09-12, 02:26 PM
I'd rather have a V.

JimmyH
07-09-12, 02:56 PM
so would I. But $70k is out of my budget. And with what I see the guys on this forum doing, I am not sure I can trust a used V anymore. I am content with my SS.

thebigjimsho
07-09-12, 03:51 PM
No, you're not.

CadillacLuke24
07-09-12, 04:35 PM
I'd rather have a V.

I'd rather have ALL THREE. :D

But on my hierchy of cars to buy, a Diamon White 3coat on Very Light Cashmere V2 Sedan with the Stick is at the very top :yup:

brandondeleo
07-09-12, 11:18 PM
I'd MUCH rather have a V too. :p

93DevilleUSMC
07-10-12, 06:27 AM
I'd take a red jewel tintcoat ZL-1, have said ZL-1 tuned a bit for maybe 30-40 extra horsepower, then go embarass Destroyer in his GT500, then go run circles around a certain black hearse and Chevelle whose owner claims it to be capable of 200 mph. The only advantage the GT500 has is a slightly faster straight line speed.

93DevilleUSMC
07-10-12, 06:29 AM
Also, when is Ford going to pony up and announce their Nurburgring time and also give us the results on this supposed 200 mile run in Italy? I call bs.

JimmyH
07-10-12, 03:57 PM
Ford never makes their 'ring times public.

CadillacLuke24
07-10-12, 04:06 PM
I want the ZL-1 C&D tested. Pure sex.

LOL Yeah Ford will talk all day, but when it comes time to produce results, they are nowhere to be seen. If it did so hot on this little known Italy track, why haven't we seen the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWFP6LM-_q8

Lookie what I just found. Chevy has the numbers and the proof to back it. Ford is all talk.

JimmyH
07-10-12, 04:18 PM
I don't think it's so much that they are all talk, as much as they just don't want to publicize their 'Ring times. I don't blame them. Who gives a crap? The nurburbring is nothing more than a HIGHLY overrated racetrack.

gary88
07-10-12, 04:38 PM
Overrated: no. It's arguably the most attractive track in the world.

People just sometimes put too much emphasis on comparing Nurburgring times between cars, or really any sort of published number. There is a lot more to a car than how fast it accelerates/goes around a track.

JimmyH
07-10-12, 04:55 PM
Exactly. People have made 'ring times the end-all/be-all of performance cars. And it is not.

Florian
07-10-12, 05:22 PM
Ring times are for PR only. Ive crushed every ZL1 Ive raced.....

F

JimmyH
07-10-12, 05:27 PM
That's because the ZL1 had too many admirers in the way :lildevil:

Submariner409
07-10-12, 05:31 PM
............... on any Sunday.

People that qualify their car using someone else's track times and experience in a similar model are basically blowing smoke up your butt.

In identical cars at Daytona I could kick my wife's butt................Danica Patrick would be a different story.

thebigjimsho
07-10-12, 05:39 PM
And the GT500 won't do 200mph, either...

thebigjimsho
07-10-12, 05:39 PM
Ring times are for PR only. Ive crushed every ZL1 Ive raced.....

FWhich is probably zero.

The Raven
07-10-12, 07:57 PM
Ring times are for PR only. Ive crushed every ZL1 Ive raced.....

F

HAHA yeah...cool story. I haven't lost to a single 2013 GT500 either.

CadillacLuke24
07-11-12, 02:54 AM
And the GT500 won't do 200mph, either...

Nor would an aerodynamic brick of a 67 Chevy or 80 Cadillac :stirpot:

brandondeleo
07-11-12, 03:09 AM
Nor would an aerodynamic brick of a 67 Chevy or 80 Cadillac :stirpot:
Who the hell would take an '80 Caddy that fast? :lol:

They'd be floating like a dingy in the perfect storm.

Jesda
07-11-12, 07:54 AM
GM is aiming the ZL1 at a more sophisticated customer than the GT500, a more Euro-centric driver who might appreciate the snobbery of the 'ring.

thebigjimsho
07-11-12, 08:25 AM
Boss 302 > Camaro SS
ZL1 > GT500


There, I just pissed off Jimmeh and F in one post...

concorso
07-11-12, 01:59 PM
Challenger V6 > Mustang / Camaro V6's ...

Holden Ute + LSA > all of the above

concorso
07-11-12, 02:00 PM
9<10... I learnt that one years ago

JimmyH
07-11-12, 02:05 PM
Boss 302 > Camaro SS


For sheer handling and acceleration it is. For everything else, the Camaro is better. Besides, the Boss is fugly. The Laguna Seca is hideous.

thebigjimsho
07-12-12, 12:21 AM
For sheer handling and acceleration it is. For everything else, the Camaro is better. Besides, the Boss is fugly. The Laguna Seca is hideous.

I don't think the Boss is ugly. If I ever got a Laguna Seca edition, it would be all-graphics delete...

gary88
07-12-12, 12:39 AM
Found this today.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHxEUA0W7nQ

:stirpot:

thebigjimsho
07-12-12, 12:55 AM
There are Vs that are almost in the 9s, if not already.

CadillacLuke24
07-12-12, 03:21 AM
Vs were running 9s back in early 2011. COOL STORY FORD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVFighlajFk

Both cars will have a customer base. Drag racing is nifty and all, but it's like straight line. Woo.

Course racing is entertaining because you have the long straights, the apexes, the braking points, the shifting, etc etc etc. You're doing more than just mashing the gas and grabbing the gears.

JimmyH
07-12-12, 01:18 PM
http://cooleywire.com/jimmyh/pics/2012/DRAGRACING.jpg

JimmyH
07-12-12, 01:21 PM
I saw an 08 or 09 GT the other day. Dark blue, no spoiler. No stripes. It looked really good. The 2010+ looked very cool initially, but now, I think they look overdone. The styling is just too busy.

CadillacLuke24
07-12-12, 05:46 PM
Yeah, it's a toss up. The older ones look more legit retro IMHO

CadillacLuke24
07-12-12, 05:47 PM
Neither one of them look better than the Camaro though :D

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-12-12, 10:29 PM
Just got the magazine today, after reading the article, I completely understand. The GT500 is faster (noticeably quicker, shaves .5 second off both the 0-60 & 1/4 mile time of the ZL1) and is far more powerful, but it's not as sophisticated as the ZL1. They said the GT500 was completely insane, but the ZL1 was much easier to control and much more sophisticated and that it felt like a true "sports car" instead of a brutish muscle car.

CadillacLuke24
07-12-12, 10:55 PM
The GT-500 is more classic pony car. Go fast if you go straight

The ZL-1 is more of a modern pony/sports car. Go fast. straight, left, right, etc.

JimmyH
07-12-12, 11:04 PM
At the level of power these cars are playing at, the differences are negligible. At the strip, if the guy in the GT500 flinches, for a fraction of a second, the ZL1 will smoke him. And vice versa. Same thing on a road course; one bad turn in a ZL1, the GT500 will best him.

Something alot of people take for granted with these magazines is that they have these cars ALL day on a track to themselves. They have as much time as they want to get the fastest time, and consistent times.

Those of us in the real world don't have that luxury. So when a ZL1 and a GT500 line up at a stoplight, it's anybody's game. Yes, the GT500 will prevail if both cars get a perfect launch. But what are the odds of that happening every time?

JimmyH
07-30-12, 06:26 PM
Then again, take this, Boss LS!!!

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240616