: JD Power Survey - Cadillac #5



doc_spartan
06-20-12, 10:54 PM
http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/key-car-quality-study-ranks-software-bugs-most-170243393.html

Point about software bugs is interesting....wife has a Lincoln MKT, one of the more frustrating aspects of that vehicle is the blue tooth connection to family phones.

GM-4-LIFE
06-21-12, 12:46 AM
Today, CNBC stated that Cadillac ranked number 4. Not number 5. What's the deal?

mother
06-21-12, 12:48 AM
Doc obviously lost a finger in shop class or something ;) (It's #4 in that link)

doc_spartan
06-21-12, 05:11 PM
Oops my bad #4 is correct!

nsaness
06-21-12, 09:43 PM
Maybe you guys are new here. We only complain about our fast, great braking, great handling, cheap, well built cars here. The only thing wrong with them is that they are American (icky, yuch). They can't be as high as #4 because they are not European....

M5eater
06-21-12, 09:54 PM
holy shit, jag is #2?

Airfoto
06-21-12, 11:13 PM
Jag is #2 because of their Customer Service - something some of the Cadillac Dealers don't have, nor do they have enough tech's that have any knowledge about the "V" - I've only had my car a month and in that time I forgot more then the Underwritter and Tech togther know about the "V". I like the car, but it and Cadillac do have issues - yea yea yea they all do!

It’s really basic if you look at Cadillac’s history – they were and still have the old dude attitude about its customers. Until the “V’ came about and they pushed their racing program – 90% of Cadillac buyers were old dudes! Not so any more.

Their problem is their customer service and service departments both still think like old dudes! They can’t conceive that an owner would have more knowledge and care about his car – they expect you to trust their lack of integrity and knowledge and just write the check!

If you can’t tell that I’ve had an issue over this exact subject – surveys can be very one sided depending on who you talk to or how much the kick back is! So you got to hear a little of the other side of the coin.

Rich Browne
06-21-12, 11:27 PM
Jag is #2 because of their Customer Service - something some of the Cadillac Dealers don't have, nor do they have enough tech's that have any knowledge about the "V" - I've only had my car a month and in that time I forgot more then the Underwritter and Tech togther know about the "V". I like the car, but it and Cadillac do have issues - yea yea yea they all do!

Interesting. I'm in Northern California and my dealership is simply awesome. They are in constant contact and the service has been first rate. The service writer is VERY informed about the V and I'm pretty sure he's on this forum. Cadillac has a new BFF.

taken
06-22-12, 07:09 AM
Maybe some have said this in the past, but I haven't seen it. I see a lot of people complain about not having a tech at the dealer qualified to work on the V. On my last one, a 2010, I bought it used with 9k on the clock at a Chevy dealership. I don't have a Caddy dealer within an hour of me, so I just used the selling dealer for warranty issues. They, like most Chevy dealers have to have techs to work on Vettes. Their Vette tech did all the warranty work on my V and knew exactly what he was doing. So, perhaps if you don't have a knowledgeable tech at your selling dealer, shop your service to other local GM dealerships who may have the right people for the job? My new car is coming from a Cad dealer over an hour away so I'll be back at the Chevy dealer for service.

M5eater
06-22-12, 07:39 AM
Jag is #2 because of their Customer Service
you realize this is initial quality ranking as reported errors per 100 cars right? Have you ever filled out a IQS survey?

Are you suggesting customer service is a direct factor in people lying on the JD Power surveys? Then none of this is relevant.

And I was displaying shock that Jag was #2 because the year before, they were

http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2011089

wait for it...
22nd

BTW OP, the Link is broken.

here's a direct link
http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/quality-press-release.htm

Haze
06-22-12, 03:58 PM
he
you realize this is initial quality ranking as reported errors per 100 cars right? Have you ever filled out a IQS survey?

Are you suggesting customer service is a direct factor in people lying on the JD Power surveys? Then none of this is relevant.

And I was displaying shock that Jag was #2 because the year before, they were

http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2011089

wait for it...
22nd

BTW OP, the Link is broken.

here's a direct link
http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/quality-press-release.htm

It isn't matter of lying. The European brands, especially the Germans used to do lousy on the 90 day ownership survey. Mercedes for one put into place a massive port of entry service system that checks 450 items for repair before the car even got to the dealer to be prepped. The point of "customer service" as I see it is that a dealer who is well primed to prep a car so that it is delivered squeak free, will avoid the 90 day problem window and do well on this survey. It is also true that if a new owner comes in immediately with an issue, and the dealer fixes it right away, washes the car, and delivers it right back, the new owner may forget that it happened by the time they get the survey. The 90 day initial quality survey is gameable. It was the three year dependability study that I really used to read with interest, and the contradictions between it and initial quality from the same manufacturers was interesting. Mercedes for one has pulled their initial quality way up, but it still didn't keep my mother in law's 5 month old C class from failing to recognize its ignition, just as the '07 and the '04 did. Of course that isn't within 90 days.

grasshopper
06-23-12, 09:45 AM
I take JD Power Survey with a grain of salt. I think the problem lies with the survey itself and objectivity (or lack thereof) of customers. JD Power recently made some revisions in their survey to discern "hard" quality vs "soft" quality (design vs manufacturing/reliability) in their Initial Quality Survey. I don't think general public really understand this fact. But to me, it doesn't make sense to combine complaints about cup holder not able to hold Big Gulp and unintentional acceleration problem. And JD Power does NOT disclose how these items are weighed in its survey. You'd think any serious problem that leaves customers stranded and walking home would weigh more than tail light/trunk fit/gap, but we just don't know.
I do believe there's some truth in what Haze mentioned above that overall customer experience can and often will cover the short term inconvenience. It has been my personal experience that small issues when quickly addressed does not stay in my memory for long. Like others I have bigger things to think about in my life. So when it comes to fill out the survey, I was more likely to be...subjective...use my dealership experience and give good or bad marks accordingly.
And I think this is where Cadillac can really help itself. The dealership service quality has not caught up to the quality of cars. I vouched to never buy another Nissan after so many bad experiences with the dealerships in 4 different cities in 3 different states. Likewise it's frustrating to root cause the steering wheel vibration yourself to the fact that dealer torqued the lug nuts at 80 ft*lb when the manufacturer's recommended number is 140 ft*lb. And to hear the dealer service department reason...that's what we use for most cars that come through. Guess how I filled out the survey!!??

grasshopper
06-23-12, 09:46 AM
I take JD Power Survey with a grain of salt. I think the problem lies with the survey itself and objectivity (or lack thereof) of customers. JD Power recently made some revisions in their survey to discern "hard" quality vs "soft" quality (design vs manufacturing/reliability) in their Initial Quality Survey. I don't think general public really understand this fact. But to me, it doesn't make sense to combine complaints about cup holder not able to hold Big Gulp and unintentional acceleration problem. And JD Power does NOT disclose how these items are weighed in its survey. You'd think any serious problem that leaves customers stranded and walking home would weigh more than tail light/trunk fit/gap, but we just don't know.
I do believe there's some truth in what Haze mentioned above that overall customer experience can and often will cover the short term inconvenience. It has been my personal experience that small issues when quickly addressed does not stay in my memory for long. Like others I have bigger things to think about in my life. So when it comes to fill out the survey, I was more likely to be...subjective...use my dealership experience and give good or bad marks accordingly.
And I think this is where Cadillac can really help itself. The dealership service quality has not caught up to the quality of cars. I vouched to never buy another Nissan after so many bad experiences with the dealerships in 4 different cities in 3 different states. Likewise it's frustrating to root cause the steering wheel vibration yourself to the fact that dealer torqued the lug nuts at 80 ft*lb when the manufacturer's recommended number is 140 ft*lb. And to hear the dealer service department reason...that's what we use for most cars that come through. Guess how I filled out the survey!!??

mother
06-24-12, 10:33 AM
And JD Power does NOT disclose how these items are weighed in its survey. You'd think any serious problem that leaves customers stranded and walking home would weigh more than tail light/trunk fit/gap, but we just don't know.

What part of defects per 100 units is throwing you?

grasshopper
06-25-12, 11:25 AM
I understand the defects per 100 as unit of measure. It's WHY and HOW the survey gets to that number I'm not sure anybody understands. For example, if a cup holder was found to be "defective" by the customer because it was too small, that would be counted as one defect. If the same car's engine died because of a faulty fuel pump, that would be one defect. Together...that would be 2 defects for that car. For simplicity sake, let's assume there are 100 cars just like that. The survey...if we use this method...now then would report...2 defects per 100 cars.
Now...my questions is...why??? Isn't the survey inaccurate or perhaps slight misleading if it lumps the total car failure with a cup holder issue?
Now...let's assume the survey gives more weights to more important problems like engine failure...let's say engine failure is weighed 5 times more than the cup holder...making the total defects 1(cup holder defect) + 5 (engine failure) = 6 total defects for that car. Something of that weighted system would make more sense in my mind. But HOW much are they weighed, if any??? JD Power never discloses their methodology.
Oh by the way...about the same argument goes to Consumer Reports.

mother
06-25-12, 11:42 AM
let's say engine failure is weighed 5 times more than the cup holder...making the total defects 1(cup holder defect) + 5 (engine failure) = 6 total defects for that car. Something of that weighted system would make more sense in my mind. But HOW much are they weighed, if any??? JD Power never discloses their methodology.
Oh by the way...about the same argument goes to Consumer Reports.

Obviously you are having trouble with the defects per 100 units thing. 1 defect is 1 defect. 100 units is 100 cars. I don't think design deficiencies are defects, but I do think a broken cup holder vs a blown engine would both be 1 defect.

The point of the survey is initial quality. I think that's decently unambiguous.

grasshopper
06-25-12, 12:32 PM
The Initial Quality Study, now in its 26th year, serves as the industry benchmark for new-vehicle quality measured at 90 days of ownership. The study is used extensively by manufacturers worldwide to help them design and build better models and by consumers to help them in their vehicle purchase decisions. Initial quality has been shown throughout the years to be an excellent initial indicator of long-term durability, which directly impacts consumer purchase decisions. The study captures problems experienced by owners in two distinct categories: design-related problems[/SIZE] and defects and malfunctions.

Mother...no disrespect...but I am a senior manufacturing engineer at an auto plant for one of the OEMs. Just about everything I deal with on day to day basis deals with defects per 100 or 6 sigma.

Haze
06-25-12, 12:53 PM
Grasshopper's point is quite right. The disconnect as I see it is that the initial quality report was never intended for consumers. It was developed, and before the internet, only distributed to manufacturers to see how their factory operations and dealer prep were working together to properly manufacture the car and then compare that initial owner experience with their competitors. As a tool for determining how good a car is, it is modest use to the consumer. As Grasshopper points out, it will not tell you anything about latent engineering defects, because they generally do not make themselves known until the car has been down the road a couple of years. Also, the point that it marks one defect as a defect even if it is pretty much inconsequential, a loose shift know for instance, as opposed to a failed valve train. Both are one defect. For me it makes sense when you think that it is the factory owners who pay for the report, and what they are interested in is how well their systems are working. For them, a loose shift knob and a bad valve train are both manufacturing problems that have to be cured. It is why I really liked the three year study, but they don't publish that any more. It was far more useful at showing more substantial driving problems with a car. Have you guys ever heard of "True Delta"? They are more what you would like to see. They do internet questionaires over the life of a single car, publish trend data, and give you access to the actual owners' reports to read what they said about the defect, how it happened and how it was resolved, or not, by the dealer or mechanic or in the back yard. I have been a member for years now. The problem with it is that it's data sets are very small on many models, and the trend reports pretty inaccurate because of that, but if you read through the data on a given model, it can sometimes give you a head's up about trending problems.

mother
06-25-12, 01:48 PM
I stand corrected, sorry!