: 2013 BMW M5 vs 2012 Cts-V *Video*



Ste_V_e
06-19-12, 10:35 PM
Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrdR_0fBx0s&feature=g-u-u

V locity
06-19-12, 10:47 PM
Hmmm... Notch one up for BMW!

neuronbob
06-19-12, 10:50 PM
Nice comparo! I'd still take the V + extra money, but the new M5 is a beautiful car to behold.

Trapspeed
06-20-12, 07:14 AM
Good vid. I would personally like to thank BMW for giving GM all the reasons in the world to go 650 HP in the new V! The M looks like a great car.

dcc8203
06-20-12, 09:51 AM
They did say the R&T editors preferred the V on the track, even though the M was faster...

What's the price on the new M?

FoD
06-20-12, 11:01 AM
I've read around $90k+.

JFJr
06-20-12, 11:24 AM
Thank God for competition! The ball is now in Cadillac's court and I'll bet they will hit it on the baseline.

Jud

Houdini
06-20-12, 11:38 AM
Got to see a new m5 up close at a recent cars and coffee. Beautiful exterior but didn't care for the interior that much. It sure looked comfortable though. I'd like to have both but wouldn't enjoy the maintenance costs on the M.

neuronbob
06-20-12, 11:45 AM
Thank God for competition! The ball is now in Cadillac's court and I'll bet they will hit it on the baseline.

Jud

Now that's what I'm talking about. I hope this "competition" between BMW and the Cadi V series goes on for quite some time. It is such a great time to be an automotive enthusiast. I really do like both cars. Let's go Cadillac! Make that next CTS-V a 650 hp monster from the factory and win the next comparo!

Xaqtly
06-20-12, 12:19 PM
Yeah exactly. Perfect opportunity to catch up to the M5, or pass it. I do worry about the V stepping on the other LSX cars' market share a little bit though, because if they up the V's power so it's competitive with the M5, it's going to be in Z06 territory speed-wise, and faster than the ZL1. But it's not the same class of car, so maybe it won't be an issue. I am really looking forward to what Cadillac does with the next gen V in addition to power though, assuming it'll get PTM and the gen 2 MRC, they might be able to differentiate sport and tour mode even more, like the M5 does.

M5eater
06-20-12, 12:28 PM
Yeah exactly. Perfect opportunity to catch up to the M5, or pass it. I do worry about the V stepping on the other LSX cars' market share a little bit though, because if they up the V's power so it's competitive with the M5, it's going to be in Z06 territory speed-wise, and faster than the ZL1. But it's not the same class of car, so maybe it won't be an issue. I am really looking forward to what Cadillac does with the next gen V in addition to power though, assuming it'll get PTM and the gen 2 MRC, they might be able to differentiate sport and tour mode even more, like the M5 does.

I'm sure the C7(due this year or early next) will set a new bar and maintain ample breathing room for any future V to remain fully in its rear view mirror. Remember that what the C6 has evolved to in terms of the Z06/ZR1's capability was not what it was orginally designed for. For all intents and purposes the C6 was still mostly an overpowered muscle car, it wasen't trying to compete with ferrari, porsche or any other exotics. The C7 will change that and start the transformation into a true world-class sports car.

as for the next cts-v I believe we still have another 2-3 years before anything comes to fruition, but I don't expect that it will have 650hp. clealrly BMW Audi and Mercedes have demonstrated that it's not just about hp anymore.

What I love about this comparison is that they tested 6MT vs 6MT. Considering the N/A market is the only one in the world that will get the 6MT in the F10 M5 it's good to see they recognised this and that they still prefer the caddy over the F10 when it comes to the track.

SoCal_V
06-20-12, 12:43 PM
Not sure if we need more power in the next gen V (of course we do), but I DO know to compete with the high end Euro cars, the new V needs drastically improved fuel economy. Whether that means start/stop technology or turbos instead of superchargers, the low teens MPG isn't gonna continue cutting it in a world of $4+ gasoline.

I can hear some of you already--"We didn't buy this car to get good mileage." Right. Me either. But would you say no to a 550+HP car that gets high 20's MPG? The E63 and M5 do, with the same power or more through advanced engineering technology.

As much as I love our big, dumb 6.3-liter supercharged pushrod engine, they are by no means a model of efficiency and that puts GM/CTS-V well behind the curve.

M5eater
06-20-12, 12:49 PM
Not sure if we need more power in the next gen V (of course we do), but I DO know to compete with the high end Euro cars, the new V needs drastically improved fuel economy. Whether that means start/stop technology or turbos instead of superchargers, the low teens MPG isn't gonna continue cutting it in a world of $4+ gasoline.

I can hear some of you already--"We didn't buy this car to get good mileage." Right. Me either. But would you say no to a 550+HP car that gets high 20's MPG? The E63 and M5 do, with the same power or more through advanced engineering technology.

As much as I love our big, dumb 6.3-liter supercharged pushrod engine, they are by no means a model of efficiency and that puts GM/CTS-V well behind the curve.

I agree 100%. It needs to start at least posting EPA 22-25mpg highway. the Gen V's and D/I will help with that, but apart from the other technology you're mentioning, eventually they're going to have to start designing much more integrated powertrains, and that means no more package protected GM V8's.

visualguy
06-20-12, 12:52 PM
Yes, fuel consumption needs to be lowered to be more comparable with the German competition. Also, a better interior and better ergonomics, please...

M5eater
06-20-12, 01:31 PM
Yes, fuel consumption needs to be lowered to be more comparable with the German competition. Also, a better interior and better ergonomics, please...

Ergonomics is pretty much there imo. The interior could be a tad better, but did you see how big the center console in the F10 is? It's not exactly setup for a manual trans, that was sort of a last-minuite thought. Also, material quality is high in the germans, but do you honestly prefer their design? Seems like giant slabs of flat land-mass to me. I'd take the curves of the ATS or CTS over that tyvm, or at least Audi's approach of something inbetween. What BMW and Mercedes are doing is very cold and stale by comparison IMO.

js615
06-20-12, 05:13 PM
It will also be interesting to see how price starts to track as the V evolves...

tbauer
06-20-12, 05:58 PM
6.3L? Must be a special edition ha.

thebigjimsho
06-20-12, 08:15 PM
The Caddy engineer I spoke to back in Nov of '08 said more power probably wasn't happening for the evolution of the V, but he said a focus on lighter weights is. And since the new CTS will be coming out on a stretched Alpha(that is as low as 3400lbs in base ATS form), I'd guess our 4200-4300lb curb weights drop to 3900-4000lbs.

Add the power bump the ZL1 got and some sort of launch control and our current powerplant(or maybe another iteration of blown LS) would trounce this M5...

Havasusteve
06-20-12, 08:48 PM
1. Better interior (headliner/A-posts)
2. All Wheel Drive
3. Differential overheating fix
4. Ill take my car as it sits and the extra $20,000 for the win, literally......Thank you

buddyg
06-20-12, 08:53 PM
Still think the V is way better looking the BMW looks bland and uninteresting.

ecorpuz12
06-20-12, 09:02 PM
if the M5 doesn't sound like an angry rattlesnake inside while i drive it then it's worth the extra money. i swear to goodness i see ol' blackbeard himself sitting in the backseat whenever i start driving my V.

visualguy
06-21-12, 02:58 AM
Ergonomics is pretty much there imo. The interior could be a tad better, but did you see how big the center console in the F10 is? It's not exactly setup for a manual trans, that was sort of a last-minuite thought. Also, material quality is high in the germans, but do you honestly prefer their design? Seems like giant slabs of flat land-mass to me. I'd take the curves of the ATS or CTS over that tyvm, or at least Audi's approach of something inbetween. What BMW and Mercedes are doing is very cold and stale by comparison IMO.

The manual shifter is within easy reach on the F10 - I've driven it with the manual transmission. No problem with that on the CTS-V either, but the shift pattern on its Tremec transmission is not good. Too easy to mis-shift 3rd and 5th, or try to push it into Reverse when looking for 5th.

One nice thing about the "giant slabs of flat land mass" interior design of the F10 is that it provides a sense of open space - the interior front feels larger than it is. The CTS-V interior front feels more cramped than it should be.

Q8 6.2
06-21-12, 08:09 AM
I hate how people justify the v is better than BMW just because of the price difference lets not forget most of the Veeeee parts are made in china So yeh V is cheaper LOL. But zero quality and workmanship.

I hate how my car easly overheats and how crappy the Ac is or how bad they installed the sunroof and man made errors (rattles) or how my trans was empty no oil on first day of owning it really distroy your fun..
Things like that are rare in BMW so u get what u pay for.

I'm on my last few months before I trade this car I won't miss it at all.

Xaqtly
06-21-12, 12:08 PM
The Caddy engineer I spoke to back in Nov of '08 said more power probably wasn't happening for the evolution of the V, but he said a focus on lighter weights is. And since the new CTS will be coming out on a stretched Alpha(that is as low as 3400lbs in base ATS form), I'd guess our 4200-4300lb curb weights drop to 3900-4000lbs.

Perfect. The weight should absolutely be priority #1, and I'm glad they seem to be working from that perspective. An even nimbler, faster CTS-V would be amazing.

Trapspeed
06-21-12, 12:23 PM
But zero quality and workmanship.


I think that's a bit extreme. Yes, small issues have developed but the LS engines are bullet proof. I'll take a bulletproof engine/power train over a sunroof creak any day.

DangFoo
06-21-12, 02:22 PM
I hate how people justify the v is better than BMW just because of the price difference lets not forget most of the Veeeee parts are made in china So yeh V is cheaper LOL. But zero quality and workmanship.

I hate how my car easly overheats and how crappy the Ac is or how bad they installed the sunroof and man made errors (rattles) or how my trans was empty no oil on first day of owning it really distroy your fun..
Things like that are rare in BMW so u get what u pay for.

I'm on my last few months before I trade this car I won't miss it at all.

My mother owns German and her BMW X5 was in the shop with a blown tranny at 6K miles [three weeks waiting for some guy in Dusseldorf to source the parts and ship them]. Then her Mercedes "old school" E-series was $1,000 for brakes and $2,000 to repair a cracking wood console -- no thanks! BMW and Benz score lower on most quality rankings than Cadillac, so your bad experience looks to be the exception and not the norm.

Why would you "hate" how people justify the V on price? It's called a value proposition and personal choice. I pay a California mortgage [much smaller home than when I lived in NC, but 2.5x the payment] and can afford a M5, but would rather live well within my means and keep our kids needs as a higher priority. Nothing to hate about people having personal choices in life and seeing the value in cost differentials, while fully understanding that those differences often include trade-offs.

Zero quality and workmanship is your selective bias ... even Honda owners are experiencing significant recalls in recent years.

larry arizona
06-21-12, 06:23 PM
U don't think the Germans get parts from suppliers in China ???? Think again!! The Japanese ALSO get plenty of parts from China too FACT!. Open your eyes people. Its all perception. All OEMS go to China, India,Korea etc to keep costs down (mostly tooling labor and the fact they use 12yo kids in china to assemble parts). ALL OEMS GUILTY! I have worked in automotive my whole career and been to China 10+ times (its disgusting to see their factories). I don't like it and quit a job or two because of China but it is not going away. I am an anti-Chinite (automotively speaking, the peeps are very nice) and you just can't avoid it.

larry arizona
06-21-12, 06:31 PM
The M5 is blah. Interior is too oldmanish compared to the V. .1 to .2 seconds is nothing. Add 100HP for less than a $1000 and that goes away. I bet to add a 100HP to a M5 is more than a grand hahahahaha. Just wait the mags will LOVE the shifter placement and they were hard on where Caddy put it. That M5 shifter looks plain AKWARD and uncomfy. Cant wait to run across one....... hehehehehe

But I do agree, competition is FUN and good for everyone.

What is worrying me about the next gen MY 2015 CTS V is with the 2015+ CAFE (death to the 2nd muscle car era as it get progressively stricter to 2020) standards that Obama put in effect, I think we can kiss a big SC V8 bye bye. I smell a twin turbo small V8 or V6/ Heck BMW even broke theor own promise of no TT's on the M5.

larry arizona
06-21-12, 06:31 PM
The M5 is blah. Interior is too oldmanish compared to the V. .1 to .2 seconds is nothing. Add 100HP for less than a $1000 and that goes away. I bet to add a 100HP to a M5 is more than a grand hahahahaha. Just wait the mags will LOVE the shifter placement and they were hard on where Caddy put it. That M5 shifter looks plain AKWARD and uncomfy. Cant wait to run across one....... hehehehehe

But I do agree, competition is FUN and good for everyone.

What is worrying me about the next gen MY 2015 CTS V is with the 2015+ CAFE (death to the 2nd muscle car era as it get progressively stricter to 2020) standards that Obama put in effect, I think we can kiss a big SC V8 bye bye. I smell a twin turbo small V8 or V6/ Heck BMW even broke theor own promise of no TT's on the M5.

SoCal_V
06-21-12, 07:13 PM
6.3L? Must be a special edition ha.

I bored out the engine with a Dremel & sanding drum to get that extra 0.1-liter, I didn't tell you about that?

Point is, the gas guzzling low-teens MPG ain't cutting it in the face of similar HP/TQ with 25%+ better fuel economy from the Euro cars. GM needs to step it up. I'm perfectly fine with a twin turbo V8 if it's as powerful or more powerful. The torque curve (or plateau) of the Mercedes AMG twin turbo engine is insane and it feels twice as torquey IMO due to the low RPM power production.

thebigjimsho
06-21-12, 09:04 PM
The extra coin for the BMW is for a more exotic engine, trans and more upscale materials.

But when a blown LS motor and Tremec trans are this good, and when Caddy can make an attractive interior with lesser materials, then I'd say they're doing just fine.

Again, my V is rock solid, built right and has A1 quality. #4 baby!

M5eater
06-21-12, 09:18 PM
The extra coin for the BMW is for a more exotic engine, trans and more upscale materials.

But when a blown LS motor and Tremec trans are this good, and when Caddy can make an attractive interior with lesser materials, then I'd say they're doing just fine.

Again, my V is rock solid, built right and has A1 quality. #4 baby!


There's still a market for people looking for bearly contained race-cars with decent hot-rodders power trains and not much else. That's what America does after all. That's why dodge beefed up the V10 in the new Viper because 'people were breaking the old ones when they added F/I or nitrous'

I think R&T nailed it when they said the V handles like a vette, that it feels like a fast car going slow, which is true, but it's also a vette in some other ways, and better in it's traditional problem areas.

The V2 doesn't sell well because it's a poor mans M5, it sells well because it's entirely in tune with it's market (similar to how the M5 sells well in europe) .

I worry then, how Cadillac will balance this with also trying to become more like BMW/Audi/Mercedes.

Trapspeed
06-21-12, 09:37 PM
The extra coin for the BMW is for a more exotic engine, trans and more upscale materials.


And don't forget the artificial engine noise pumped into the radio system!

SoCal_V
06-21-12, 10:44 PM
The extra coin for the BMW is for a more exotic engine, trans and more upscale materials.

For many people, those are the exact reasons that justify the extra coin.

Cts-vX6mZR1
06-22-12, 01:21 AM
From personal experience (2 escalades over 10 years not a single issue, 2011 V2 no issues, 2010 ZR1 no issues, 2006. 300c SRT no issues, 2010 X6M steering pump failure at 12 months, 2010 panamera turbo three recalls to change fuel pump, air condition drains and compressor), American cars are more reliable. I enjoy driving my V2 on the road and on the track more than any other cars. Panamera sold, X6M still running well at year two.

Value and reliability, thank you Cadillac and GM.

Q8 6.2
06-22-12, 07:33 AM
Here is my 4 years with this car update comming to the end soon. Good car bland V6 styling too much Crome not enough outside performance styling a face only a mother could love too heavy handling and feel is ok gauges and interior are missing some true performance car feel and styling.. Defiantly not for track use..

Here is my experience purchased car in 09 $70,000 trans was shifting ruf took it back two days later there was no oil in trans how do they sell a car without passing quality control first..

Month later found out trunk was leaking water entering from break light fix it at home turns out one of the 5 bolts holding that light was missing a rubber grommet to keep the element out another F U human error where the F is quality control this car is not cheap.
Then my wheels click dealer can't fix it then found out my sunroof leaking and wind noise another F up from humans not installing properly and no quality control

Ok here is my real world
A month after breakin was dieing to take to track see what it can do car was completly stock drove 5 hours to nearest track was open track day It was winter temps about 27 deg. On third lap I get trans overheating warning slowed down till it cooled then on forth lap at the end of straight I was doing 240 or 250.. 150 yards from hard right turn I hit the breaks and nothing,, very scary moment in the quick millisecond of what to do I put it in park and turned the steering at 240 kph car went round and round then into gravel sideways thank god no damage.. I still have rocks in my suspension when I changed tires few weeks ago haha...

Never took it to the track after that this car is obviously not ready for track use.

Before this car I had a 300C SRT/8 omg I loved that car and still miss it i just love cars with too much power and no traction with a small cam and tune I made more power than a stock V at a fraction of the price...

I must have taken it maybe 20 times to the same track not a single problem and I love how easy it is to control in corners the suspension and breaks was fantastic I had it 3 years highly modified and zero problems

Here is a pic of my monster the brembos even turned gold from too much track use I just love 4 doors on track and that will be the next car too.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/bahrain005.jpg

Haha I feel better now just can't wait to trade it and get the M5 and start to enjoy my track days

M5eater
06-22-12, 07:42 AM
I hate how people justify the v is better than BMW just because of the price difference lets not forget most of the Veeeee parts are made in china So yeh V is cheaper LOL. But zero quality and workmanship.

I hate how my car easly overheats and how crappy the Ac is or how bad they installed the sunroof and man made errors (rattles) or how my trans was empty no oil on first day of owning it really distroy your fun..
Things like that are rare in BMW so u get what u pay for.

I'm on my last few months before I trade this car I won't miss it at all.
JDPower inital quality rankings;

Cadillac; #4
BMW; #10
http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/quality-press-release.htm


Haha I feel better now just can't wait to trade it and get the M5 and start to enjoy my track days

Enjoy!

snzuloz
06-22-12, 09:52 AM
I think the forum will be better off when half of these people that have no concept whatsoever finally figure out that ALL vehicles have issues! Doesn't matter who makes it, they ALL have issues, and some very costly ones at that. What really matters is the dealership or car manufacturer going to assist you? Without you having to pay the bills? From my experience so far my AMERICAN car has been more reliable than my German or Japanese cars lol.

Merge
06-22-12, 09:58 AM
V still looks better inside and out.
BMWs are over-rated.
Also over-priced.

Q8 6.2
06-22-12, 10:11 AM
JDPower inital quality rankings;

Cadillac; #4
BMW; #10
http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/quality-press-release.htm



Enjoy!

I'm sure you'll find a German Jd power that will say BMW is number 1.

Anyway I don't care what people say I was just telling it how it was for me. Others don't have these issues (i think)

larry arizona
06-22-12, 10:53 AM
Q8,you are correct that you have common issues to a vocal few. That what forums seem to highlight and rightfully so. I happen to have a 2010 with no issues to date at 8K miles (except excessive wear of rear PS2's :thumbsup:. I am curious if the high temperature climate that you live in has something to do with some of your issues. Cars are designed within temperature limits of -30C and +85C (I know you air temps dont get that high but interior temps do) Bad things happen at both extremes and may answer some of the creaks and rattles. I have no doubt that racing in 30C temps is going to cause some overheating.

Pphilthy
06-22-12, 11:19 AM
I'm sure you'll find a German Jd power that will say BMW is number 1.

Anyway I don't care what people say I was just telling it how it was for me. Others don't have these issues (i think)

You do realize that its based on objective data, not just an opinion... LOL If the 'German JD Power' can execute basic 3rd grade math, the results would be same but you'll pay twice as much for the information...

DangFoo
06-22-12, 11:33 AM
I'm sure you'll find a German Jd power that will say BMW is number 1.

Anyway I don't care what people say I was just telling it how it was for me. Others don't have these issues (i think)

No, you won't because JD Powers is based on consumer feedback and is not funded by advertising like Car and Driver or even Consumer Reports. I shot your biases down twice and you're just not getting it for some reason, so I'm not going to cast any insults or judgement, but wish you good luck with the Bimmer.

Cadillac Cust Svc
06-22-12, 11:46 AM
This is absolutely a great thread, everyone! Many thanks for your candor! I've passed along this URL so many GM departments can access it, and (as always) feel free to contact me if you'd like me to document any feedback you care to give further.

Hope you all have a good weekend,

Katie
Cadillac Customer Service

DangFoo
06-22-12, 12:02 PM
I think the forum will be better off when half of these people that have no concept whatsoever finally figure out that ALL vehicles have issues! Doesn't matter who makes it, they ALL have issues, and some very costly ones at that. What really matters is the dealership or car manufacturer going to assist you? Without you having to pay the bills? From my experience so far my AMERICAN car has been more reliable than my German or Japanese cars lol.

I agree and it feels like Honda and Toyota can have 100+ recalls this year and old stereotypes of Japanese superior quality will still remain. Lexus has earned high marks and I'm not going to argue otherwise, but I've seen Lincoln, Buick, and Cadillac (in particular) placed slightly ahead and then slightly behind Lexus in passing recent years' quality rankings. Look at Jaguar for example; people still have this notion that Jags fall apart and they've made huge leaps in reliability. I have three vehicles and each one is an American brand [Jeep, Ford, and Caddy] ... OK, the Jeep is perhaps Italian-American :) Less problems than my neighbor's relatively new Toyota minivan.

ecorpuz12
06-22-12, 03:32 PM
the V2 is my second brand spanking new caddy (07 SRX) and i'm experiencing the same build quality issues that i had with the SRX. rattling door panels, creaking seats/sunroof/central dash area, groaning suspension, and misaligned interior and exterior trim pieces. my dealer did what they could to mitigate the offending noises but they persist.

i saw the JD Power reliability rankings and was honestly quite suprised to see cadillac ranked #4. of course, what does "initial quality" mean? first 5k miles? 10k? i didn't start having serious issues with my V until about 25k miles. i wonder how these rankings will shake out if the survey was a midlife instead of initial.

like another poster stated, there are always going to be lemons hiding somewhere amongst the sun ripened fruit. unfortunately for me, i've bitten into two lemons so i've learned my lesson.

M5eater
06-22-12, 03:35 PM
i saw the JD Power reliability rankings and was honestly quite suprised to see cadillac ranked #4. of course, what does "initial quality" mean? first 5k miles? 10k? i didn't start having serious issues with my V until about 25k miles. i wonder how these rankings will shake out if the survey was a midlife instead of initial.
it's a mailed survey to new car owners. usually 1-3 months after ownership.

I received one on the Black diamond.

larry arizona
06-22-12, 08:59 PM
eco, just know that if you had bought a BMW or Merc you would have worse complaints than your 2 caddys. #4 BEATS #9& #10. first 90 days of ownership. jdp also tracks longer term quality of vehicels. CTSV ranks 4 out of 5 for quality. Its hard to find a BMW better than a 2 or 3 out of 5 long term. I am sure long term when BMW rapes you on a repair cost satisfaction goes DOWN!

shchow
06-22-12, 10:07 PM
As mentioned, ALL MAKES have issues.
When I got one of the first 6 series available in the US, I had to have the transmission replaced TWICE.
The electrical gremlins in that car were just too much. Was glad to see it go.
But I will say that the fit and finish on the European cars are simply better.
Are they worth an extra 30k? Not sure...

Q8 6.2
06-23-12, 04:28 AM
Q8,you are correct that you have common issues to a vocal few. That what forums seem to highlight and rightfully so. I happen to have a 2010 with no issues to date at 8K miles (except excessive wear of rear PS2's :thumbsup:. I am curious if the high temperature climate that you live in has something to do with some of your issues. Cars are designed within temperature limits of -30C and +85C (I know you air temps dont get that high but interior temps do) Bad things happen at both extremes and may answer some of the creaks and rattles. I have no doubt that racing in 30C temps is going to cause some overheating.

Yes I understande high hourse power cars generate more heat I was comparing the ctsv to other high hp cars I had Other cars come with cooling that match.. The V dosent it has been struggling to keep up from the bigging. Also the larger break calipers heat up faster than smaller ones so it also needs better larger cooling duckt.And better break oil. Sorry that just my opinion after 4 years ownership. Other than that it's a fing good car

Q8 6.2
06-23-12, 04:43 AM
This is absolutely a great thread, everyone! Many thanks for your candor! I've passed along this URL so many GM departments can access it, and (as always) feel free to contact me if you'd like me to document any feedback you care to give further.

Hope you all have a good weekend,

Katie
Cadillac Customer Service

Thanks for ur support I feel every smart engineer should start by reading the feedback from v owners first. Also I feel a lil shocked I never seen one on here asking questions or looking for feedback or try to connect with members and listen to there problems its just shows how they are not interested sorry but I think no one is going to listen to you so save ur energy sweetheart there is nobody there.
Thanks

Q8 6.2
06-23-12, 05:37 AM
No, you won't because JD Powers is based on consumer feedback and is not funded by advertising like Car and Driver or even Consumer Reports. I shot your biases down twice and you're just not getting it for some reason, so I'm not going to cast any insults or judgement, but wish you good luck with the Bimmer.

Hahaha thanks for not insulting me im on ur side bro ima V owner too trying to point out the bad after this long term with the V..

Most every problem I had was lil man made errors and really bad unacceptable lazy workmanship on a car of this standards is just not rite I once had a rattle comming from dash area was driving me crazy dealer can't find or fix few months later I found it was comming from passenger side I removed panel under glove box two minutes and 4 screws found a bunch of wiring and a plastic connector loose flying around got some plastic tie straps tied everything down rattle gone 4ever now why didn't this car come like that from factory????

Once I had a leak in my trunk comming from break light turns out one of the rubber grommet surrounding the bolt was missing who the fu would forget to add that?. That's just crazy to see on a car like this..who the fu works on these cars

My sunroof was installed one side higher than the other makes crazy wind nois dealer said its a big job so I said forget it I'll just live with it.

Also had a rear main seal leak from day one car was brand new sux. Sometime I feel stupid for paying $70,000 this car is probably made in china or something

jenlain
06-23-12, 07:30 AM
And now back to M5 vs CTS-V...
I'm sure the f10 M5 is great and it definitely exceeds the CTS-V in interior refinement.

However, price matters in the real world. Delivered price for a comparably equipped M5 and CTS-V is almost $40k apart. Kind of like putting down the Subaru BRZ for not being as nice as a Cayman R.

ecorpuz12
06-23-12, 08:58 AM
eco, just know that if you had bought a BMW or Merc you would have worse complaints than your 2 caddys. #4 BEATS #9& #10. first 90 days of ownership. jdp also tracks longer term quality of vehicels. CTSV ranks 4 out of 5 for quality. Its hard to find a BMW better than a 2 or 3 out of 5 long term. I am sure long term when BMW rapes you on a repair cost satisfaction goes DOWN!

our other other car is a 2006 325i sedan fully loaded and the interior of that sucker is bomb proof even after 94k miles. after the 4yr 48k mile free maintenance program ran out, yes, i was bummed out by the cost of routine maintenance and repairing the occasional hiccup. however, the overall experience with the dealer and service made up for that with the awesome loaner cars and customer service.

don't get me wrong, i absolutely love the V...it's just that i can't get past some of the faults it has. kind of like that one girlfriend i had in college. meh, it is what it is...maybe i'm just unlucky when it comes to cars and the rattle fairy.

neuronbob
06-24-12, 12:02 AM
I wouldn't pick on Q8 for quality issues he has with his car. If you had his issues you'd be pissed, too.

In any case, this thread is about the M5 vs. V on the track. New M5 edges out 4-year-old V, no surprise there since competition is good and did you really think BMW was going to take the V's claims sitting down? Now it's Cadillac's turn to not rest on its laurels with the V. Competition is good and is what this country is made of! To win, the next CTS-V will have to step it up a notch both in build quality and performance. Just like the current V is MUCH better than the V1 in build quality and performance, the V3 had better be MUCH better than the V2. I'm 100% sure it will be MUCH more expensive too. I hope that the engineers and designers from Cadillac really do monitor the threads so they know what we are expecting in the next V

Q8 6.2
06-24-12, 07:34 AM
I wouldn't pick on Q8 for quality issues he has with his car. If you had his issues you'd be pissed, too.

In any case, this thread is about the M5 vs. V on the track. New M5 edges out 4-year-old V, no surprise there since competition is good and did you really think BMW was going to take the V's claims sitting down? Now it's Cadillac's turn to not rest on its laurels with the V. Competition is good and is what this country is made of! To win, the next CTS-V will have to step it up a notch both in build quality and performance. Just like the current V is MUCH better than the V1 in build quality and performance, the V3 had better be MUCH better than the V2. I'm 100% sure it will be MUCH more expensive too. I hope that the engineers and designers from Cadillac really do monitor the threads so they know what we are expecting in the next V

Hahahahaha thank you.

People missunderstand what I'm saying yes it has its lil simple easly fixable problems but the CTS/V is a fantastic car with excelent balance of power/chassis. Same gos with BMW. Both good cars

Thanks to GM for making a car like this a 4 door rear wheel drive a mod frendly tunable PCM/TCM With a supercharged OHV 6.2 Incredible to find these features in this day and age of tree huggers :)

I just want to add that we have here in Kuwait the best and largest GM dealership in the world more than a thousand mechanics and a $50 million state of the art garage no expense was spared. I enjoyed first class support and service in the past 4 years. Every time I had my car in the garage they gave me a brand new loaded Cts black diamond to use and they gave me 4 years of FREE everything including break pads oil changes I have paid NOTHING other than the price.. Thanks GM it was excellent after sale support wish u luck...

M5eater
06-24-12, 09:24 AM
I wouldn't pick on Q8 for quality issues he has with his car. If you had his issues you'd be pissed, too.
This is a CTS-V forum. People's natural reaction is to go on the defensive when you start saying anything bad about their cars.

CIWS
06-24-12, 09:59 AM
The new M5 is a great piece of engineering. To really own one you had better plan on a 100K price tag for the new M5 and 115-125K for the new M6. The argument about whether it's worth the 30K difference in price is really up to each individual. Some can justify the extra cash for the M5 while others don't see the worth. My local BMUU dealership already has 25 on order, prepaid deposits. So if you're not already on their list it may be a while before you could even buy one. They got in one new M6 vert and it already sold at 125K. They have customers waiting to buy. I haven't seen one bad review of the car yet, all positive including thumbs up from Top Gear.

Personally, I'd find me an F10 550i AWD, preowned/certified for around 58K and have it tuned. It wouldn't be an M but it would be fast, fast enough with a little over 500HP and 580TQ and with AWD. The new M will not be offered in AWD.

JFJr
06-24-12, 05:55 PM
All new cars get rosy reviews (anything to do with advertising revenue?), but as time goes on, the reviews or comparisons get a little more critical. Why do you think that is? Anyway, I would like to drive the new M5 but certainly wouldn't want to own or lease one. I will leave that to others more concerned with "prestige."

Jud

Q8 6.2
06-24-12, 06:08 PM
This is a CTS-V forum. People's natural reaction is to go on the defensive when you start saying anything bad about their cars.

Defensive about what I haven't said anything about the car only pointed how badly my car was put together

Yes we should get back to comparing M5 and ctsv.... I think BMW is better built and more desirable than the V. No way around it bro...

I was checking out the prices of what my car would sell.. what a shock I found many 09s in US money about $35,000 for a good clean used V . a clean used 2010 M5 about $65,000. They do not depreciation like the V.

larry arizona
06-24-12, 06:28 PM
Q8 your emotions got the better of you. Everyone gave you plenty of slack and nobody picked on you and there you go getting frustrated and make a comment like "BMW is better built" and "how bad your V was put together" and" no way around it bro". Do us a favor and buy your new M5 and enjoy your better quality and service. Adios muchacho. Have yet to see a V go for under $40K in the states2010's well equipped still pull low $50K. If your math is correct, the BMW and CTS-V in Kuwait both dropped $30 us dollars so I dont get your point on depreciation. You must be going by trade in value. I am calling you out :stirpot:

thebigjimsho
06-24-12, 06:33 PM
Defensive about what I haven't said anything about the car only pointed how badly my car was put together

Yes we should get back to comparing M5 and ctsv.... I think BMW is better built and more desirable than the V. No way around it bro...

I was checking out the prices of what my car would sell.. what a shock I found many 09s in US money about $35,000 for a good clean used V . a clean used 2010 M5 about $65,000. They do not depreciation like the V.Not around here, man. The V depreciates better in the states...

Rich Browne
06-24-12, 06:55 PM
Q8 your emotions got the better of you. Everyone gave you plenty of slack and nobody picked on you and there you go getting frustrated and make a comment like "BMW is better built" and "how bad your V was put together" and" no way around it bro". Do us a favor and buy your new M5 and enjoy your better quality and service. Adios muchacho. Have yet to see a V go for under $40K in the states2010's well equipped still pull low $50K. If your math is correct, the BMW and CTS-V in Kuwait both dropped $30 us dollars so I dont get your point on depreciation. You must be going by trade in value. I am calling you out :stirpot:


Ya, what Larry said.

Q8 6.2
06-24-12, 07:03 PM
Q8 your emotions got the better of you. Everyone gave you plenty of slack and nobody picked on you and there you go getting frustrated and make a comment like "BMW is better built" and "how bad your V was put together" and" no way around it bro". Do us a favor and buy your new M5 and enjoy your better quality and service. Adios muchacho. Have yet to see a V go for under $40K in the states2010's well equipped still pull low $50K. If your math is correct, the BMW and CTS-V in Kuwait both dropped $30 us dollars so I dont get your point on depreciation. You must be going by trade in value. I am calling you out :stirpot:

Haha ok I'll be sure to send you a full report with pics when it gets here.. Yeh used V is prity cheap around here they gong to kill me on trade in just did a quick search 4u low mile 09 V under warrantee $30,000
http://kuwait.q8car.com/en/cars/cadillac/cts_-_v/2009/113172/itemdetails.aspx

neuronbob
06-24-12, 07:15 PM
I can probably private party-sell my non-Recaro 2009 V for in the neighborhood of $40k. That's around 70% of what I paid for it. I'd call that pretty awesome depreciation for an American car.

Too bad I'm not interested in selling right now. I'd have to get a killer deal on a 6MT Vagon, or a stellar deal from an interested buyer, to let go of a car that will be paid off in two months.

larry arizona
06-24-12, 08:36 PM
I would agree that in Kuwait that a BMW is far more desireable than a Caddy. Makes sense to me. I am sure that american cars are not highly desireable. Its all perception.

larry arizona
06-24-12, 08:40 PM
PROUD to say that the V is engineered and built in the MOTORCITY!!!! (technically engineered in Warren and Milford Michigan and Built in Lansing, Michigan). But to me that is DETROIT.

larry arizona
06-24-12, 08:48 PM
Stuttgart and Munich have nothing on Detroit.

ecorpuz12
06-24-12, 08:54 PM
PROUD to say that the V is engineered and built in the MOTORCITY!!!! (technically engineered in Warren and Milford Michigan and Built in Lansing, Michigan). But to me that is DETROIT.

the engine is built in mexico isn't it?

as for the topic...i guess i would lean towards the M5...but it would be dadgum hard to justify an extra 30k over the price of the V.

on a Q8 related note...on a whim i called up my golf buddy sales manager at my GM dealer to see what kind of deal i could get on trading in the V (52k miles) for a new silverado truck for the wifey. the best he could do was give me $33,500. pretty pathetic considering kbb.com lists $35,750ish for one with an excellent rating. apparently there isn't a big desire out there for a used GM-made supercar that gets around 16mpg combined.

neuronbob
06-24-12, 09:03 PM
^^^^
KBB prices are unrealistic. Galves is closer to the real trade value. On a whim, I also asked about a trade four months ago. I was offered $34.5k. I elected to pay off my car, keep it for weekend duty, and then maybe lease an el-cheapo, high mpg new beater as a daily driver through my business.....or continue to daily the V as long as possible. My V is probably a keeper at this point.

thebigjimsho
06-24-12, 09:45 PM
Trade in value is NOT retail. Not applicable...

M5eater
06-24-12, 09:52 PM
the engine is built in mexico isn't it?
A lot of components are made in other countries.

The brakes are stamped 'made in italy' the shocks are from BWI in China..

Recaro is a german brand-name.

Finnal assembly is done in lansing.

However, you are correct the engine is assembled in Sailo. Sucks to know that an engine with a higher output and smaller production than the LS7 isn't handmade in Michigan, but I know that the Sailo workers probably take extra pride in our LSA's and their quality control standards are obviously top-knotch.

How many problems with the LSA have you ever heard--- ever(sans the isolator bushing). Even as far as oil-pan leaking?

The engine in this car is probably the most carefully assembled part in the whole car. That much I have no doubt.

RapidRob
06-24-12, 10:00 PM
^^^ - My oil pan leaked when the car was new. The dealer verified it by using dye. Fixed, (pan gasket replaced), under warranty...

Rob

RapidRob
06-24-12, 10:01 PM
Duplicate post ... !??

Rob

Q8 6.2
06-25-12, 05:09 AM
I would agree that in Kuwait that a BMW is far more desireable than a Caddy. Makes sense to me. I am sure that american cars are not highly desireable. Its all perception.

Omg are you trying to say what I think your saying? U have no idea what u talking about but i understand your paranoya cos u get your info from ur local media.

Didn't you read my previous post??? Here is some crazy real facts for u man..here in Littile Kuwait population 1 million we actually have the largest fastest most high volume Cadillac GMC and Chevrolet sales than any dealer in USA. I got money for u if you can find a bigger better more luxurious gm dealer on ur side or anywhere else on this freaking planet...There is a big V8 GM car or truck in every house I'm not kidding the ratio is even higher than the US The reason is they are good cheap and bulit proof
GM is number1 sales.. So what is the number 1 seller in USA?????? Probably Honda..

What do you think the cops drive for the past 10-15 years Chevy caprice it's made for middle east only comes with LS3 and rear wheel drive 4 doors.They made it for us especialy cos this is high volume market. Why do you think the US got the GTO few years ago all because of us we made it worth there wile cos it was here in high volume ten years before they started to ship it to you..

You can throw that theory out now Let's not go political cos I would throw up from all the crap that would come out your mouth..

--------

Ok let's get back to this ctsv. vs M5 ... Sooo you would agree that M5 is more desirable... well it's more desirable anywhere in this world including US. To be honest I don't think BMW cares about a small volume money looser like the ctsv I think even GM would rather see it disappear.i would be surprised if BMW even new about it.

Anyway good luck with your car and I hope you get many years of happiness out of it.

larry arizona
06-25-12, 06:51 AM
GM is number 1 in sales in the states and once again #1 in the world.

Q8 6.2
06-25-12, 07:43 AM
GM is number 1 in sales in the states and once again #1 in the world.

ok #1 in USA that's good to know... But rest of the world no... Actually there is only one export market for american made GM it's rite here in the 6 GCC oil producing country's and NO where else.. american made cars are not desirable in the rest of the world.. And very few make it to other markets its mostly GCC speaks that GM sends over to other countrys for media use. BMW is in every country on this planet.

I'm not going to comment anymore about this I wanted to give you a picture and I did so let's leave it there oki.. This is a great thread about ctsv and BMW lets keep it that way

Houdini
06-25-12, 07:59 AM
To be honest I don't think BMW cares about a small volume money looser like the ctsv I think even GM would rather see it disappear.i would be surprised if BMW even new about it.

I respected your opinion until now. lol what a dumb comment.

Q8 6.2
06-25-12, 08:57 AM
That's not an opinion dumdum

larry arizona
06-25-12, 09:17 AM
BMW is WELL aware of the V2 as it kicked their proverbial A$$ and drove BMW to up their game on the 2013 M5 that barely beats the 4 yo V2 and still costs $30K more and is fugly.

larry arizona
06-25-12, 09:20 AM
BMW is WELL aware of the V2 as it kicked their proverbial A$$ and drove BMW to up their game on the 2013 M5 that barely beats the 4 yo V2 and still costs $30K more and is fugly.

Fact: GM is the #1 (largest in sales) automaker in the WORLD again. Can't dispute that fact.

Trapspeed
06-25-12, 11:19 AM
That's not an opinion dumdum

"Ain't no need for name calling....boy"



93854

DangFoo
06-25-12, 11:51 AM
ok #1 in USA that's good to know... But rest of the world no... Actually there is only one export market for american made GM it's rite here in the 6 GCC oil producing country's and NO where else.. american made cars are not desirable in the rest of the world.. And very few make it to other markets its mostly GCC speaks that GM sends over to other countrys for media use. BMW is in every country on this planet.

I'm not going to comment anymore about this I wanted to give you a picture and I did so let's leave it there oki.. This is a great thread about ctsv and BMW lets keep it that way

I live in Europe part of the year and most of my family is there. We have Fords, Chevrolets/Daewoo, and Jeeps all over the place in Russia, Poland, and other parts of Europe that I frequent: Portugal (as another example). It seems like every post you are just making less and less sense.

DangFoo
06-25-12, 11:55 AM
PLEASE READ and educate your self before posting horse s**t:

General Motors says it has become the first global automaker to sell 2m vehicles in China in a single year.

I thought you wrote something about GM not selling outside the oil producing nations??? Some of the cars sold in China are imported there too; care to re-think that comment?

Here's the full link if interested.

http://www.just-auto.com/news/gm-passes-2m-annual-china-sales-mark_id106916.aspx

ecorpuz12
06-25-12, 02:59 PM
^^^^
KBB prices are unrealistic. Galves is closer to the real trade value. On a whim, I also asked about a trade four months ago. I was offered $34.5k. I elected to pay off my car, keep it for weekend duty, and then maybe lease an el-cheapo, high mpg new beater as a daily driver through my business.....or continue to daily the V as long as possible. My V is probably a keeper at this point.

i'm truly glad there are Vs out there that are rock solid and rattle free. i'm all about pride in american made products and truly would like to see cadillac's interior build quality meet and surpass the likes of audi, lexus, acura, and bmw.

too bad you have to pay for the galves product...wouldn't mind seeing what they have to say. edmunds.com says my trade in is worth $39k...quite the wide range of values there. in any case, i'm gonna get hosed.

the engine is the only thing that hasn't given me issues yet...viva la mexico i guess.

larry arizona
06-25-12, 04:15 PM
Keep in mind all that the Engineering and Design of the V was done in Detroit (warren VEC) Michigan USA. The LSA was engineered at powertrain in Warren and GM Mexico happens to assemble it. Not sure where BMW does their assembly but their engineering was done in Munich. Lets keep it in perspective. These are all global companies anymore, but the brains reside at headquarters regardless of point of assembly.

M5eater
06-25-12, 04:58 PM
all m cars are hand assembled at a special factory. amg and rs cars are built similarly. cadillac builds the v along the regular cts

Q8 6.2
06-25-12, 04:58 PM
I live in Europe part of the year and most of my family is there. We have Fords, Chevrolets/Daewoo, and Jeeps all over the place in Russia, Poland, and other parts of Europe that I frequent: Portugal (as another example). It seems like every post you are just making less and less sense.

Very cool I love Europe IV been going there every summer since I was 5 well These days I'm hooked on Amsterdam been there maybe 8 times in last couple years. It is the holidays now ;)

Ok I was replying to Arizona twisted info that only in Kuwait the M5 is more desirable than the V..I was justcorrecting his info that M5 is more desirable EVERYWHERE. Why dose that make me a bad guy ???

also please tell me where I was giving wrong info American made cars are not sold in Europe or anywhere else don't ask me why cos I don't know why.but I do know if you wanted to buy a V say in England or Germany its going to cost you over $120,000...maybe even same price as a 13 M5 or a lil more expensive.

The jeeps/fords/chevrolete that u bring up are probably renamed voxhull or some other euro car probably made in hungery or portugal they almost all come with a disel or a tiny 1.2 L they are not American made please don't take this info as insult hahaha are you crazy why would that offend you. Go take it out on GM

Personally I love GM cars and truck and I want to see them everywhere as u know I drive a V my other toy is a Sierra my wife drives a Tahoe... the only car I had with problems is the V. And I was telling it like it is very respectfully.. I hate when someone insults other for no reason while hiding behind a keyboard it's a sign of a real cowards and I'm sure your not a coward

larry arizona
06-25-12, 05:16 PM
you are the only one throwing out insults, so does that make you the coward Q8?

Pphilthy
06-25-12, 06:51 PM
From a subjective standpoint, the M5 looks like nothing more than a 550i with the M Sport package... The styling is blah to me and the only car the BMW manage to get right is the 3series... Neighbor just purchased an M5, paid 115k, and I got some seat time in it this past weekend... It is fast, but what a let down on the steering feel and overall driving experience.... Too artificial and not natural...

My V with an intake, pulley and tune, ~1k - is faster than his M5 and is much more enjoyable to drive... Those were his comments BTW...

thebigjimsho
06-25-12, 08:55 PM
To be honest I don't think BMW cares about a small volume money looser like the ctsv I think even GM would rather see it disappear.i would be surprised if BMW even new about it.

Say what you want about anything else, that comment borders on the absurd...

nynd
06-25-12, 09:52 PM
Both cars are nice cars in all honesty. It all depends on what you want and what your willing to pay. The real cost factor on these two cars comes after warranty is expired. That "M" car I'm sure is going to cost you more to maintain in the event of any issues. Just look at trannies, BMW has software coded to every component in the car. As for the V, blow a tranny, go to the dealer and pay $2500 for a new one. Blow one in the M, go to BMW and pay $8K (manual) - $15K+ (if DCT).

visualguy
06-25-12, 11:24 PM
Neighbor just purchased an M5, paid 115k, and I got some seat time in it this past weekend...

How could your neighbor get it already? BMW is starting production on US-spec M5 cars only now.

mannyz
06-26-12, 12:06 AM
I am in England. There is a V up in Manchester I believe for 40K pounds but I think its used. Other than that, I have not seen or heard of another one here. One thing I can tell you though is that people here LOVE this car. They are just not familiar with its capabilities and it always surprises.

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 03:50 AM
Say what you want about anything else, that comment borders on the absurd...

Jim you can't be serious?? Come on man

For many many years M5 has always been in very very fierce compition with the E class AMG so now all of a sudden when V comes out you expect them to drop everything and concentrate on the V ???

Some people just to sensitive bro but at least we should accept the facts even if we don't like it

SoCal_V
06-26-12, 06:00 AM
Jim you can't be serious?? Come on man

For many many years M5 has always been in very very fierce compition with the E class AMG so now all of a sudden when V comes out you expect them to drop everything and concentrate on the V ???

Some people just to sensitive bro but at least we should accept the facts even if we don't like it


"All of a sudden when the V comes out..."

Earth to Q8, this isn't 2009. The CTS-V didn't just come out. It has been out for 4 model-years, and yes of course BMW knows all about the CTS-V, especially after it set the Nurburgring lap record. But then again you know that...

To make a post as dumb as yours makes it obvious you're trolling. :thepan:

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 07:20 AM
"All of a sudden when the V comes out..."

Earth to Q8, this isn't 2009. The CTS-V didn't just come out. It has been out for 4 model-years, and yes of course BMW knows all about the CTS-V, especially after it set the Nurburgring lap record. But then again you know that...

To make a post as dumb as yours makes it obvious you're trolling. :thepan:

Can't you people have an intelligent conversation without calling names.... What the f dose troll mean anyway.. forget it I'm not going to post here anymore waisting my time.

dcc8203
06-26-12, 08:04 AM
For what it's worth, the July issue of Car & Driver just picked the new M5 third out of three in a comparo against the MB E63 and Audi S6, and it wasn't close.

The Audi, with the least power and lowest price won.

thebigjimsho
06-26-12, 08:31 AM
Jim you can't be serious?? Come on man

For many many years M5 has always been in very very fierce compition with the E class AMG so now all of a sudden when V comes out you expect them to drop everything and concentrate on the V ???

Some people just to sensitive bro but at least we should accept the facts even if we don't like it

If they were concerned about the AMG, why not just make it auto only or SMG and auto? They've kept the manual for the purists. They know Cadillac would get those purists.

How the hell do you know what BMW targets? The V, as a performance vehicle, was king of the sedans. THAT is a fact. What you have been saying is opinion.

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 09:45 AM
If they were concerned about the AMG, why not just make it auto only or SMG and auto? They've kept the manual for the purists. They know Cadillac would get those purists.

How the hell do you know what BMW targets? The V, as a performance vehicle, was king of the sedans. THAT is a fact. What you have been saying is opinion.

No man the M5 and M3 have always had manual transmission even before the V.

BMW and mercs have been in rivalry for about a hundred years many cars have come and went but they still at each other throats trying to out do each other.

BMW has a mind of there own while all car companys switching to front wheel drive pos cars BMW has never made a fwd car even for Europe I like how they believe in what a car should be.

I personally prefer to buy another V but not this V even better a Chevrolet version of this v i like chevy styling better than cadillac.

Trapspeed
06-26-12, 09:52 AM
Can't you people have an intelligent conversation without calling names.... What the f dose troll mean anyway.. forget it I'm not going to post here anymore waisting my time.



That's not an opinion dumdum

You mean like this, right? Give me a break. Dismissed.

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 10:04 AM
You mean like this, right? Give me a break. Dismissed.

I will reply to same way I was talked to..but I agree Let's keep it clean gentlemen

M5eater
06-26-12, 10:05 AM
No man the M5 and M3 have always had manual transmission even before the V.

The F10's M5's 6speed was specifcly for the US market. Similarly, the 6 speed in the E60 was specificly because of interest in the N/A market.
The reality is that both those cars were orginially /are DCT only in the rest of the world.

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 10:20 AM
The F10's M5's 6speed was specifcly for the US market. Similarly, the 6 speed in the E60 was specificly because of interest in the N/A market.
The reality is that both those cars were orginially /are DCT only in the rest of the world.

I'm prity sure I could buy a manual here in Kuwait my friend has a manual M3 but I'll make sure today cos I'm going to the dealership in about an hour see what kind of waiting list and options they have on the M5

larry arizona
06-26-12, 10:46 AM
Q8, I thought you were done posting here and wasting your time 3 hours ago?

Pphilthy
06-26-12, 12:04 PM
How could your neighbor get it already? BMW is starting production on US-spec M5 cars only now.

My neighbor works in Woodcliff Lake NJ - connect the dots... lol

Pphilthy
06-26-12, 12:11 PM
BMW has a mind of there own while all car companys switching to front wheel drive pos cars BMW has never made a fwd car even for Europe I like how they believe in what a car should be.



http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/01/25/new-info-on-bmws-front-wheel-drive-vehicles/

Last time I check, the BMW design/developed Mini is also FWD...

LOL - inset foot in mouth... weren't you leaving BTW...?

allinmyhead
06-26-12, 12:27 PM
Both cars are nice cars in all honesty. It all depends on what you want and what your willing to pay. The real cost factor on these two cars comes after warranty is expired. That "M" car I'm sure is going to cost you more to maintain in the event of any issues.

^ This. Just dropped >$3k on my wife's out of warranty Q7 this month for a new bluetooth module and brakes (wear item, so not entirely fair to include). I'm not big on BMW's new boring/bloated design direction, as soon as I read that they artificially create engine noise in the M5 using the audio system, I was out. I don't care how good the car is, that right there points to a serious marketing compromise by the engineers.

I really wanted an AMG, but I've had Mercs before and remember the wallet pain of Service B (which is supposedly required to maintain warranty coverage ... debatable, but the effort of arguing with the dealer almost isn't worth it). Local dealer wouldn't quote me for Service A or Service B prices over the phone on an AMG. Which I found very odd. But he also let it slip that Service A is required every 5000 miles on AMG cars? Seemed fishy, but that was enough to scare me off.

Convincing the wife that I need a 110k super sedan that gets 16mpg of 91oct is one thing. Convincing her that this same car will also cost a couple thousand in scheduled maintenance would be a miracle.

I have a hard time stating this with a straight face, but after the AMG, the CTS-V almost seemed economical.

M5eater
06-26-12, 01:00 PM
CTS-V

The nissan Versa of Super Sedans lol.

thebigjimsho
06-26-12, 01:27 PM
No man the M5 and M3 have always had manual transmission even before the V.

BMW and mercs have been in rivalry for about a hundred years many cars have come and went but they still at each other throats trying to out do each other.

BMW has a mind of there own while all car companys switching to front wheel drive pos cars BMW has never made a fwd car even for Europe I like how they believe in what a car should be.

I personally prefer to buy another V but not this V even better a Chevrolet version of this v i like chevy styling better than cadillac.

No. When BMW released the E60 M5 in America, it was going to be SMG only, like the rest of the world. The outcry from purists here forced BMW to add a manual option.

As for Mercedes and BMW being rivals for a hundred years, Cadillac was the standard of the world before BMW ever existed. As for BMW having a mind of its own, why are they making 5 series cars that are more luxury, less sport? Same for the 6. They're going for more mass market.

Cadillac is quickly swooping in to capture the title of world's best handling sedans.

As for you thinking BMW doesn't even think about Cadillac...YOU bought one, sucker. You are the reason BMW is wary of Cadillac. YOU! hahahahaha

dqw1
06-26-12, 01:36 PM
Why is it when some decide to leave the forum they choose to go down in flames instead just saying bye and leaving with respect?

neuronbob
06-26-12, 02:07 PM
God this thread has devolved.

IBTL

With that said:


CTS-V

The nissan Versa of Super Sedans lol.

:rofl: That gave me a nice belly laugh, which I really needed today. Thanks man! :rofl:

(I drove a Versa as a rental the last time I was on the West Coast, what a POS....I could not wait to get back to my V, waiting patiently at the Cleveland airport for my return.)

Garymonnecka
06-26-12, 03:03 PM
My neighbor works in Woodcliff Lake NJ - connect the dots... lol

Makes sense now lol. Don't they have a big corporate office there? I know either Bentley or rolls does. That's close to me and I always see pre-production BMW's audi's and even mini's sometimes. Saw a countryman at work before it was released.

concorso
06-26-12, 04:01 PM
I will reply to same way I was talked to..but I agree Let's keep it clean gentlemenGo back and read his posts. He didnt come close to insulting you. Youre mad at your V and trying to take it out on owners who are happy with their cars. Do what you promised, please.

concorso
06-26-12, 04:03 PM
Ergonomics is pretty much there imo. The interior could be a tad better, but did you see how big the center console in the F10 is? It's not exactly setup for a manual trans, that was sort of a last-minuite thought. Also, material quality is high in the germans, but do you honestly prefer their design? Seems like giant slabs of flat land-mass to me. I'd take the curves of the ATS or CTS over that tyvm, or at least Audi's approach of something inbetween. What BMW and Mercedes are doing is very cold and stale by comparison IMO.This. Id love a higher quality interior, but the BMW interior is cold, uninviting. Unusual lines inside with such timeless beauty on the outside makes me wonder if their designers ever conversed.

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 04:34 PM
went to BMW today the first batch has been all sold next batch comming in october maybe end of september they have all been reserved except one which is white with dark red interiour... I wanted black with black interior.. So he says we can special order it for you but it will take 6 months or more as there is a world wide waiting list a mile long so I have choice white one in 3 or 4 months or place an order and wait minimum 6 -8 months

I took a few pics of one which is sold also but they told the buyer that it has to be in the showroom for a month hahaha

Car is BEUTIFULL the seats are huge and very confertable plenty of side support this one is a special edition M5 individual I'll upload more pics
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/448a133c.jpg

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 04:42 PM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/a5f64700.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/5b14707d.jpg

Check out that camera on the side of the bumper what the hell is that for
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/7dadc6f8.jpg

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 04:48 PM
Duel intercoolers just before entering the TB
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/cefc1e4b.jpg

Duel heat exchangers one on each side
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/d0c04b48.jpg

Ok this is my FAVORIT pic look at that trans cooler it is built rite on the lower engin cover where the plastic under cover supposed to be it is now all trans cooler not some plastic cover
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/803533a0.jpg

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 04:59 PM
Very classy interior
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/68118585.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/0b9b75f5.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/bf178ef6.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/2de31ee6.jpg

M5eater
06-26-12, 05:14 PM
Check out that camera on the side of the bumper what the hell is that for
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOzf8mPFBh0

Thanks for the photos btw! She certinally does look orgasmic.


That Individual paint job must have cost several shiny pennies!

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 05:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOzf8mPFBh0

Thanks for the photos btw! She certinally does look orgasmic.


That Individual paint job must have cost several shiny pennies!
Thanks for that video looks like a good idea when your parking near the curb too
Yes it looks great http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/8c4bce89.jpg

I also loved the individual 4 door 6 series looked so god dam sexy I'll upload a pic of that too

Q8 6.2
06-26-12, 05:57 PM
6 sieres Individual love it.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/0a12c861.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/e8597d09.jpg

allinmyhead
06-26-12, 06:16 PM
CTS-V

The nissan Versa of Super Sedans lol.

Exactly!! Hey, I'm not ashamed!

Rich Browne
06-27-12, 12:58 AM
Wow, those are DULL cars - inside and out. Glad you liked them, I think they are BLAND, DULL, BORING. The only exception was the engine compartment. A touch too jammed, but, racey, just the same

visualguy
06-27-12, 02:37 AM
I like the M5 (and the F10 in general) a lot - both the interior and the exterior. The interior feels very spacious, comfortable and clutter-free.

One worry would be maintenance on this car. Way too many things that can go bad in that engine compartment and elsewhere, and not enough qualified and trained mechanics to fix this complex machine.

Q8 6.2
06-27-12, 03:09 AM
Wow, those are DULL cars - inside and out. Glad you liked them, I think they are BLAND, DULL, BORING. The only exception was the engine compartment. A touch too jammed, but, racey, just the same

Dull huh.. That's what u think all the others are speechless hahahahaha.

Seriously thou I think both V and M5 are good cars both have plus and minus but when I saw the M5 in person I get the feeling they are not even in the same class.. This car is larger ... engine compartment so large you can fit a V12 in there .it had larger interiour and more leg room for the rear passengers. I like all the options it had all ten million of them..nice very well hidden buttons.. Outside view is very good ill admit even better than the V..One feature that i really liked you close the door you don't have to slam it will get sucked in and closes thats on all 4 doors extra safty for kids, also liked the electric trunk opening and closing good feature when u at the supermarket guy comes to load your groceries u hit a button while still inside drive away saves you from tips.

Q8 6.2
06-27-12, 03:27 AM
As for you thinking BMW doesn't even think about Cadillac...YOU bought one, sucker. You are the reason BMW is wary of Cadillac. YOU! hahahahaha

Hey Jim good morning how u sleep last night feeling better now? ;)

Ok ok I believe you BMW is in direct compition with Cadillac but I must admit they are doing a lousy job of competing. Those BMW marketing people suck. At least they should have made the price much lower closer to the V and not like the E6.3 maybe it should get cheaper breaks/wheels/interior

larry arizona
06-27-12, 06:15 AM
+1 M5 styling is boring.

dqw1
06-27-12, 08:53 AM
+2, I think it's boring too and expected more from the F10 visually inside and out. Now, I do think it's an excellent high performance sedan. I think the price of the M5 vs the V is irrelevent at least to me. If you want it and can afford it, then buy what you want. I do like that Caddie and BMW are raising the bar. Just think what the V3 might be like.
To Q8, get your M5 and be happy and when you do leave this forum, leave with class.

Rich Browne
06-27-12, 09:19 AM
Dull huh.. That's what u think all the others are speechless hahahahaha.

Seriously thou I think both V and M5 are good cars both have plus and minus but when I saw the M5 in person I get the feeling they are not even in the same class.. This car is larger ... engine compartment so large you can fit a V12 in there .it had larger interiour and more leg room for the rear passengers. I like all the options it had all ten million of them..nice very well hidden buttons.. Outside view is very good ill admit even better than the V..One feature that i really liked you close the door you don't have to slam it will get sucked in and closes thats on all 4 doors extra safty for kids, also liked the electric trunk opening and closing good feature when u at the supermarket guy comes to load your groceries u hit a button while still inside drive away saves you from tips.

Yep, dull. Simple concept, really. Make all the excuses you want. Blah. Didn't like the V1, either. The V2 Coupe is a bold, not trendy, design. Hard edges where others go for the mainstream rolled, soft, look.

SoonerSpeedFreak
06-27-12, 01:42 PM
Like Cadillac has qualified trained mechanics.............:D

One worry would be maintenance on this car. Way too many things that can go bad in that engine compartment and elsewhere, and not enough qualified and trained mechanics to fix this complex machine.[/QUOTE]

visualguy
06-27-12, 02:27 PM
Like Cadillac has qualified trained mechanics.............:D


Good point, but the M5 is a lot more complex than the CTS-V. Also, parts are likely to be harder to get for the M5 (would need to be ordered from Germany in some cases...)

The other day I was trying to count the number of radiators/coolers in the M5, and trying to imagine how much work it would be to replace just the hoses on that car, not to mention something more significant.

If you buy a manual M5, the clutch will most likely need to be replaced at some point. I wonder how many things need to be removed and re-installed for that job, and how easy it would be for the typical BMW dealership mechanic in the US to do it well on this car.

Long-term ownership of the M5 seems like a frightening prospect to me.

dcc8203
06-27-12, 02:36 PM
and closing good feature when u at the supermarket guy comes to load your groceries u hit a button while still inside drive away saves you from tips.

Really? You're about to drop $100K+ on a car and can't tip the guy who carries the groceries to your car?

Stay classy, my friend.

Xaqtly
06-27-12, 02:40 PM
also liked the electric trunk opening and closing

My Vagon has that too, and it's not an added cost option, it's just standard. And I do use it all the time, for loading and unloading my dog, and when I'm at the grocery store. I don't use it for cheating people out of tips though.

M5eater
06-27-12, 03:44 PM
Good point, but the M5 is a lot more complex than the CTS-V. Also, parts are likely to be harder to get for the M5 (would need to be ordered from Germany in some cases...)

The other day I was trying to count the number of radiators/coolers in the M5, and trying to imagine how much work it would be to replace just the hoses on that car, not to mention something more significant.

If you buy a manual M5, the clutch will most likely need to be replaced at some point. I wonder how many things need to be removed and re-installed for that job, and how easy it would be for the typical BMW dealership mechanic in the US to do it well on this car.

Long-term ownership of the M5 seems like a frightening prospect to me.

That's a primary reason why I bought the CTS-V. A 10 year old audi tests my patience well enough. I can't imagine something much more modern.

The V is very simple. It doesn't require special service tools or knuckles of steel to jam hands into tight spaces.

s/c OHV V8, Manual trans . Can't get much easier than that. Even the mantiance and service fluids aern't anything special. If you're into keeping car's for decades, then the CTS-V has a good chance of out-living it's german rivals by a quarter century or two.

visualguy
06-27-12, 03:54 PM
s/c OHV V8, Manual trans . Can't get much easier than that. Even the mantiance and service fluids aern't anything special. If you're into keeping car's for decades, then the CTS-V has a good chance of out-living it's german rivals by a quarter century or two.

Agreed. Reading the following about the details of the M5 engine freaked me out. What a complex machine. Good luck to anyone who owns this long-term in the US...

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588858

larry arizona
06-27-12, 04:03 PM
Once again so complex and I am proud to have a GM small block with a BLOWER that competes all day long. KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid! "

M5eater
06-27-12, 04:09 PM
holy shit even the computer is water cooled?


I don't even have a water cooled desktop..

did you see the size of that oil cooler too? It's almost half as big as our entire intercooler!

I also lold at all the responses --- I'll take the extended EXTENDED warranty please.

visualguy
06-27-12, 04:17 PM
I would assume that the 550i is somewhat simpler than the M5, but I don't know by how much. It would need to be a lot simpler to bring it to where I would feel comfortable owning it...

The 550i is about the same price as the CTS-V. It has somewhat less power, but a very nice interior design and quality, as well as impressive electronics (nav, B&O sound, etc.) Also, a nicer manual transmission (in my opinion).

M5eater
06-27-12, 04:22 PM
The 550i uses esentially a de-tuned version of the S63tu. (it's even called N63)

it's still a twin-turbo scropion style V8. It's still an extremely complex powertrain.

visualguy
06-27-12, 04:29 PM
I'll take the extended EXTENDED warranty please.

Me too, but only if I thought the dealerships around here could do a good job working on this car, and since I highly doubt that, I wouldn't buy that car...

I'm wondering if the 550i is a good-enough alternative to the M5 with a lot fewer potential headaches, or maybe the CTS-V is still the best way to go.

Trapspeed
06-27-12, 06:53 PM
Stay classy, my friend.

That is my line, seņor.


93952

:duck:

Q8 6.2
06-28-12, 04:40 AM
Once again so complex and I am proud to have a GM small block with a BLOWER that competes all day long. KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid! "

Show us a pic of your V Larry someone pm me saying you drive a Toyota hahaha

larry arizona
06-28-12, 06:41 AM
Q8, K.I.S.S. is an engineering principle that stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. Clearly the M5 is not simple and it still does not beat the much simplier V (virtual tie). I get it that you would not fully understand American slang. No one called you stupid. BTW I thought you were done posting here. Your comments are growing boring too.

Q8 6.2
06-28-12, 07:29 AM
Q8, K.I.S.S. is an engineering principle that stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. Clearly the M5 is not simple and it still does not beat the much simplier V (virtual tie). I get it that you would not fully understand American slang. No one called you stupid. BTW I thought you were done posting here. Your comments are growing boring too.

No way Its starting to get fun around here I used to come here maybe once or twice a week but now armed with this new I pad I'm going come here all day every day 24hrs rest of my life hahahah

Q8 6.2
06-28-12, 07:34 AM
Yeh I agree the V is a simple OHV motor which was my requirement when I was looking for a new car I don't like all these double cam cars but these days 99% of high hp cars are not simple so go with the flow bro.;)

visualguy
06-28-12, 12:18 PM
Yeh I agree the V is a simple OHV motor which was my requirement when I was looking for a new car I don't like all these double cam cars but these days 99% of high hp cars are not simple so go with the flow bro.;)

The problem I have with the M5 isn't with the complexity of the engine itself. It uses advanced but sufficiently-proven technologies. The issue is with all the stuff they put around it - too many things that can go bad with time and may be difficult to troubleshoot and difficult to access and replace without taking out a whole bunch of other things.

pmsteinm
06-28-12, 02:07 PM
The problem I have with the M5 isn't with the complexity of the engine itself. It uses advanced but sufficiently-proven technologies. The issue is with all the stuff they put around it - too many things that can go bad with time and may be difficult to troubleshoot and difficult to access and replace without taking out a whole bunch of other things.

That's what I notice on my wife's 335....everything is more of a PITA to do than it is on either of my GM cars. In the book it looks simple "Remove X, then remove Y". The trouble is the "remove X" step in-turn requires something else to be removed, which also requires remoaval of something else, etc etc. Before you know it half the car needs to be taken apart. Either that or a "Special" tool is required.

And some things seems complex just for the sake of complexity: An electric thermostat? Really? That was an answer to a question nobody asked.

She loves her car, but I do worry as it gets up there in miles.

That said, if I had an extra 100k laying around, I'd take an M5 (for 4yrs/50,000mi that is). The M5 would be my everyday driver and the V (manual) would be my fun car :)

visualguy
06-28-12, 02:36 PM
That said, if I had an extra 100k laying around, I'd take an M5 (for 4yrs/50,000mi that is).

That's the problem. If I could keep the car for 10-15 years, then I could maybe just barely swallow the $100K. Getting a new one every 4 years would add up to way too much money over time for me...

I guess another approach is to look at it as a "once in a lifetime" kind of thing where you buy it only once, keep it and enjoy it for 4 years, and then go back to a more cost-effective car.

Q8 6.2
06-29-12, 03:42 AM
The problem I have with the M5 isn't with the complexity of the engine itself. It uses advanced but sufficiently-proven technologies. The issue is with all the stuff they put around it - too many things that can go bad with time and may be difficult to troubleshoot and difficult to access and replace without taking out a whole bunch of other things.

Sry but i totaly disagree it just looks difficult ....look at all the mettal couplings I could probably remove both intakes in 10 minutes with a screwdriver look how easy to remove the intercoolers this is exactly how a true performance car should be man. ;). If you can control ur self keep it stock this car would last forever :D
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/SRTEE/cefc1e4b.jpg

ecorpuz12
06-29-12, 08:25 AM
i too, am a little apprehensive with all the computer controlled doodads that are in the newer BMWs. all that tech is awesome but i'm still not so sure about the longevity of the system.

i had a 535i loaner a few months ago and i came away impressed with the vehicle as a whole...impeccable fit and finish (as usual), capable engine, and good road manners. i actually like the rather austere dash/center console. and the idrive system has been improved. one thing that totally blows though is the stupid autostop feature...glad you can disable it (but you have to do it every time you get in the car). i think a moderately tuned 550i will drive just as compelling as the M version for 20k cheaper.

M5eater
06-29-12, 08:28 AM
Sry but i totaly disagree it just looks difficult ....look at all the mettal couplings I could probably remove both intakes in 10 minutes with a screwdriver look how easy to remove the intercoolers this is exactly how a true performance car should be man. . If you can control ur self keep it stock this car would last forever
yeahhh.. I don't know that there buddy.

Those 'couplings' you're reffering to are held on by those stupid 1-time use only clips (that require a special tool to use if you want to buy new ones to remain OEM) So for everyone you remove, you need to replace with worm clamps, fuel line clamps or replace them(they're $1.5-$5 a PIECE).

And those are water to air intercoolers. Everytime you remove those you'll need to drain coolant, refill and purge the system.

I'm unsure which side the plugs are on too, but on a LS, they're easily acessable on the exhaust side. I believe in the S63 they're directly overhead in the middle of the combustion chamber, which looks like you'll need to remove the air ducting, the P/S pump and eletric water pump in order to access.

Nothing about that engine looks easy. Except maybe changing air filters, and there are two of them. It might be easy compared to a W12 A8 or Mid-engined V12 Ferrari, but compared to A CTS-V? Not even close. Acutally I take that back, the Ferrari might be easier in some respects.

I've worked on a TT V6 S4 before. NOTHING is easy, and that powertrain had a lot more bay space than the S63TU in the M5 does.

Half the time I worked on that car was spent doing powertrain removals because there was simply no other way to access certian items.



That's the problem. If I could keep the car for 10-15 years, then I could maybe just barely swallow the $100K. Getting a new one every 4 years would add up to way too much money over time for me...

I guess another approach is to look at it as a "once in a lifetime" kind of thing where you buy it only once, keep it and enjoy it for 4 years, and then go back to a more cost-effective car.

For a once in a lifetime purchase, I'd rather spend $100K on something else to be honest. Like a light used ZR1, 911, or GT-R.

visualguy
06-29-12, 12:48 PM
For a once in a lifetime purchase, I'd rather spend $100K on something else to be honest. Like a light used ZR1, 911, or GT-R.

I thought about that, but I like the combination of luxury, space, and sportiness offered by cars like the M5 or CTS-V. The cars you mentioned are too tilted toward sport and too lacking in other areas for what I'm looking for right now.

SoCal_V
06-29-12, 01:08 PM
Good point, but the M5 is a lot more complex than the CTS-V.

Agreed, and it's that complexity (read: technology & engineering) that gives the new M5 more HP and useable torque at lower RPM, WITH significantly better fuel efficiency.

Not many people who can truly afford $100k cars that are concerned with working on the vehicle themselves...their time is more valuable than $75/hr labor rate. Pay an expert to do it and keep on drivin'...

visualguy
06-29-12, 02:24 PM
Not many people who can truly afford $100k cars that are concerned with working on the vehicle themselves...their time is more valuable than $75/hr labor rate. Pay an expert to do it and keep on drivin'...

Absolutely, but the problem is finding an expert who can do a good job working on the M5. The more complex and the more rare the car is, the more challenging it becomes to get it maintained and repaired properly.

visualguy
06-29-12, 02:33 PM
Agreed, and it's that complexity (read: technology & engineering) that gives the new M5 more HP and useable torque at lower RPM, WITH significantly better fuel efficiency.

The fuel efficiency of the new M5 is indeed pretty amazing considering its power. It completely obliterates the CTS-V on that front. The CTS-V consumes over 50% more gas for the same distance. You can go over 300 miles on the M5 with the same amount of gas that will give you only 200 miles on the CTS-V. The advanced technologies used in the S63TU certainly deliver impressive results on this front.

CIWS
06-29-12, 02:36 PM
Neighbor just purchased an M5, paid 115k, and I got some seat time in it this past weekend... It is fast, but what a let down on the steering feel and overall driving experience.... Too artificial and not natural...

My V with an intake, pulley and tune, ~1k - is faster than his M5 and is much more enjoyable to drive... Those were his comments BTW...

Cool, does your friend have connections with BMW USA, seeing how they are not importing the F10 M5 here yet ?

SoCal_V
06-29-12, 03:24 PM
Absolutely, but the problem is finding an expert who can do a good job working on the M5. The more complex and the more rare the car is, the more challenging it becomes to get it maintained and repaired properly.

How is that a problem unless one lives in the middle of nowhere? A car like this will receive its maintenance in a BMW dealership service center during its warranty period (4yrs) and then it's up to the next buyer to have capable hands working on it.

This isn't a $25k Chevy...it's a $100k specialized car that requires specialized service, which IMO isn't an issue for a car of that caliber.

DangFoo
06-29-12, 03:28 PM
Why is it when some decide to leave the forum they choose to go down in flames instead just saying bye and leaving with respect?

I agree with this comment 100%. Might be selling my V after very short time of ownership and it has nothing to do with the car not being excellent; more a personal choice to shift my priorities in life [move to another neighborhood and some of the homes here are a joke for prices and what you don't get for your money].

NOBODY (aside from the 1% club) wants to read bi***ing and whining about how you can't wait to unload the V when your new Maserati or Bimmer arrives. Show some respect and tip your hat at the hospitality, then kindly get the F out. I would love to meet some of these drama queens in real life; as I'd like to believe that they're actually not such DBs in person.

pdetti
06-29-12, 03:31 PM
The extra coin for the BMW is for a more exotic engine, trans and more upscale materials.

But when a blown LS motor and Tremec trans are this good, and when Caddy can make an attractive interior with lesser materials, then I'd say they're doing just fine.

Again, my V is rock solid, built right and has A1 quality. #4 baby!

I don't even know how you can say that. Have you ever owned a higher end BMW? The V is so far from rock solid. Mine creaks all over the place. Everything is the utmost cheapest plastic available. It creaks when it downshifts, it creaks around corners and over bumps, it even creaks when hard breaking. The only thing good about the car is the engine and brakes. It doesn't handle nearly as well as my 550i MSport did. Yes the cars were both the same $75k and the V is a second quicker to 60, but the difference in quality is astounding.

visualguy
06-29-12, 04:11 PM
How is that a problem unless one lives in the middle of nowhere? A car like this will receive its maintenance in a BMW dealership service center during its warranty period (4yrs) and then it's up to the next buyer to have capable hands working on it.

This isn't a $25k Chevy...it's a $100k specialized car that requires specialized service, which IMO isn't an issue for a car of that caliber.

It's fine if you have a good dealership service department near you with competent technicians who are trained on the M5.

My experience with dealership service departments over the years has been pretty bad, even ignoring the high costs (which don't matter during the warranty period). Things like screwing up the repair multiple times, fixing one thing while breaking another (like damaging hoses and just leaving them there damaged), ignoring obvious problems, repeatedly misdiagnosing and going on wild goose chases with unnecessary repairs, leaving rags in the engine compartment, scratching the car, and the list goes on. I can't imagine trusting any of those places with an M5 quite frankly.

Bullet Tooth
06-29-12, 04:23 PM
I don't even know how you can say that. Have you ever owned a higher end BMW? The V is so far from rock solid. Mine creaks all over the place. Everything is the utmost cheapest plastic available. It creaks when it downshifts, it creaks around corners and over bumps, it even creaks when hard breaking. The only thing good about the car is the engine and brakes. It doesn't handle nearly as well as my 550i MSport did. Yes the cars were both the same $75k and the V is a second quicker to 60, but the difference in quality is astounding.

Please don't patronize others. From your response, I truly wonder whether you have owned a "higher end BMW". I have, but never will again. I owned both a 545 and a 745 and had unbelievable amounts of electronic and fluid retention problems with both cars. Yes, I received very friendly service, but in light of the number of trips made to the dealership, they probably considered me to be the customer of the year. Never again.

Before you ask, I have also owned multiple MB's. S500, S550, G55, E55 and a couple of entry level MB's in the early 1990's. I had much better luck mechanically and electronically with the MB's than I ever did with the BMW's. My last car was an E55 that I ran to 125K. It was the best car I have ever owned but, after buying the V, I wouldn't go back (at least right now). I seriously considered the new CLS63 before I bought the V after driving it. (Full disclosure, I am considering selling the V and getting a sports car, as I can use my diesel pickup as a daily driver.)

I have no complaints or qualms with the interior quality or the "creaks" in the V, as I don't have any. I have around 6K on the car now and have observed none of the clicking, grinding or creaking complained of by others. I also don't see a marked difference in the quality of the "fit and finish" of the V compared with the others I have owned. It is my own humble opinion that the fit and finish argument is a by-product of the perceived status of owning the MB's and BMW's. Maybe my tune will change as I own the car through the years, but so far, I just haven't had the issues. If you truly want to see fit and finish problems, spend a few months driving an exotic.

Sorry if I sound like a dick, but I don't think you should question what cars others have owned. There is always someone that has cooler cars than you have. By the way, your 550 handled better than a V? Seriously?

visualguy
06-29-12, 04:47 PM
Bullet Tooth - I don't know about older 5-series BMWs, but the current F10 interior is MUCH better than that of the CTS-V - not even in the same ballpark. Dashboard, instrument panel, steering wheel, seats, door panels and handles, nav screen; eveything is in a different league. Also, the feeling of spaciousness you get in the front seats of the F10 is just awesome compared to the somewhat cramped feel of the CTS-V. I like the CTS-V overall for its power and handling, but the current 5-series is very tempting.

larry arizona
06-29-12, 05:14 PM
Do all you BMW fans think that you are going to convince V owners on a Cadillac forum that BMW's are somehow made better and have better engineering? Its pointless. Forums are a fraternity of sorts that promote brothers that think alike with some varying opinions within certain parameters, in otherwords we generally love our V's. Go have fun in your own BMW frat and leave it alone. If you have had a bad experience with your V with creaks and clicks etc and horrible dealer service and all of your BMW's are so solid and the BMW dealership is outstanding, then you are entitled to go buy your BMW and be happy and continue to drink the BMW I am better than you koolaide. Fact is that the majority of V owners here have outstanding cars without issues or bad dealer experience. Its a very vocal minority that complains and a degree of trolling on a caddy forum with BMW slappies. It is what it is, its a free country (well at least most of the countries represented on this forum) and you are free to your opinions and car choices. Go buy your fave and attach to your respective forums and be done with it. Just stupid to that you are going to win a BMW vs Caddy arguement here.

JFJr
06-29-12, 07:25 PM
Do all you BMW fans think that you are going to convince V owners on a Cadillac forum that BMW's are somehow made better and have better engineering? Its pointless.Yeah, you're right. You that unequivocally have the the BMW bias, get lost; you're behind the times and in denial. The current "V" competes with AMG, M cars costing a lot, lot more, whether you like or acknowledge it, or not. None of us care about your prejudices. Stroke yourselves elsewhere. Let's go to the track and the street, no more posturing, let's see what you have.

Jud

larry arizona
06-29-12, 07:43 PM
How come we dont see a bunch of Benz slappies on this forum knocking the V? Are they more respectful of the V's performance? Are BMW owners the more sensitive of the 3 German OEMs? Personally the MB63's have better exterior styling and actually look tough. Even Audi's look better.

CIWS
06-29-12, 07:56 PM
How come we dont see a bunch of Benz slappies on this forum knocking the V? Are they more respectful of the V's performance? Are BMW owners the more sensitive of the 3 German OEMs? Personally the MB63's have better exterior styling and actually look tough. Even Audi's look better.

Perhaps because on GM's part they have manufactured the V1 and V2 to go after BMUU's M5 directly. For whatever reason, right or wrong, they are seen as the direct competitor. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Bullet Tooth
06-29-12, 11:09 PM
Bullet Tooth - I don't know about older 5-series BMWs, but the current F10 interior is MUCH better than that of the CTS-V - not even in the same ballpark. Dashboard, instrument panel, steering wheel, seats, door panels and handles, nav screen; eveything is in a different league. Also, the feeling of spaciousness you get in the front seats of the F10 is just awesome compared to the somewhat cramped feel of the CTS-V. I like the CTS-V overall for its power and handling, but the current 5-series is very tempting.

I guess I just disagree with you. Having last owned a 745 (it was about 6 years ago or so) I disliked the dashboard, electronics and the user interface was terrible. I got used to it, but the interface was never intuitive. Maybe they have improved those issues but they certainly needed to. It was unnecessarily complicated, almost for the sole sake of being complicated. I can't comment on the seats (the dynamic seats in the E55 were unbelievable) but I have come to really appreciate the Recaros. I liked the seats in the v better than in the 745. I have been fortunate to own the cars that I have and made a somewhat informed decision about my latest purchase. Again it was my opinion that led me here. I'm not trying to bash anyone for liking or disliking BMWs. If you held a gun to my head I would have to admit that I am still an amg guy at heart.

At the end of the day, my post was really to point out that no one should patronize anyone else about not owning "high end" cars for the sake of comparison. It simply doesn't matter, because previously owning another brand of car does not mean that everyone shares the same beliefs about that car or brand. I'll quit bitching now. Not trying to attack other car guys.

thebigjimsho
06-30-12, 11:32 PM
I don't even know how you can say that. Have you ever owned a higher end BMW? The V is so far from rock solid. Mine creaks all over the place. Everything is the utmost cheapest plastic available. It creaks when it downshifts, it creaks around corners and over bumps, it even creaks when hard breaking. The only thing good about the car is the engine and brakes. It doesn't handle nearly as well as my 550i MSport did. Yes the cars were both the same $75k and the V is a second quicker to 60, but the difference in quality is astounding.Mine is dead quiet. Mine has no issues. It will run circles around your 550i sport. Sorry you got a lemon. But you're on an island...

thebigjimsho
06-30-12, 11:38 PM
Bullet Tooth - I don't know about older 5-series BMWs, but the current F10 interior is MUCH better than that of the CTS-V - not even in the same ballpark. Dashboard, instrument panel, steering wheel, seats, door panels and handles, nav screen; eveything is in a different league. Also, the feeling of spaciousness you get in the front seats of the F10 is just awesome compared to the somewhat cramped feel of the CTS-V. I like the CTS-V overall for its power and handling, but the current 5-series is very tempting.

For only $30G more.

CIWS
07-01-12, 09:56 AM
For only $30G more.

More like 5-10K more depending upon options. But there are options available in the BMUU that are not available for the V, like Head's Up Display, Side view cameras, AWD, etc. They are different vehicles made to a different clientele.




Mine is dead quiet. Mine has no issues. It will run circles around your 550i sport. Sorry you got a lemon. But you're on an island...

To each their own Jim. Remember your path my friend.

thebigjimsho
07-01-12, 09:40 PM
Indeed.

pdetti
07-03-12, 07:37 AM
Please don't patronize others. From your response, I truly wonder whether you have owned a "higher end BMW". I have, but never will again. I owned both a 545 and a 745 and had unbelievable amounts of electronic and fluid retention problems with both cars. Yes, I received very friendly service, but in light of the number of trips made to the dealership, they probably considered me to be the customer of the year. Never again.

Before you ask, I have also owned multiple MB's. S500, S550, G55, E55 and a couple of entry level MB's in the early 1990's. I had much better luck mechanically and electronically with the MB's than I ever did with the BMW's. My last car was an E55 that I ran to 125K. It was the best car I have ever owned but, after buying the V, I wouldn't go back (at least right now). I seriously considered the new CLS63 before I bought the V after driving it. (Full disclosure, I am considering selling the V and getting a sports car, as I can use my diesel pickup as a daily driver.)

I have no complaints or qualms with the interior quality or the "creaks" in the V, as I don't have any. I have around 6K on the car now and have observed none of the clicking, grinding or creaking complained of by others. I also don't see a marked difference in the quality of the "fit and finish" of the V compared with the others I have owned. It is my own humble opinion that the fit and finish argument is a by-product of the perceived status of owning the MB's and BMW's. Maybe my tune will change as I own the car through the years, but so far, I just haven't had the issues. If you truly want to see fit and finish problems, spend a few months driving an exotic.

Sorry if I sound like a dick, but I don't think you should question what cars others have owned. There is always someone that has cooler cars than you have. By the way, your 550 handled better than a V? Seriously?

Look, I was talking mainly about interior fit and finish and quality of materials. And yes my 09 550 was so much nicer in that way. Just push your hand or leg up against the center console in the V, creak. Grab the door pull and squeeze it, creak. Don't dare touch the instrument panel cover, it may come off, after it creaks of course. The sunroof creaks around every corner. It is laughable to think the CTS has the same quality interior as a 5 series BMW. No where near the quality of my Audi either and that is an suv.

You say you have no creaks and I read another reply that said the same. Why is it then that every CTS loaner I get creaks in the same exact way as mine? Do you have a 2012? Is it just an issue of certain years? I am seriously asking here because every one I have been in creaks. It is the subpar cheap plastic all hitting together. If your car seriously makes no creaking sounds I would live to know how or why so I can complain and find a resolution. Can you seriously push on the side of your console next to the shifter and it doesn't creak?

For the record, I had almost no issues with my 09 550 and our dealer here is awesome. So I guess all experiences are not alike. I agree about the iDrive being a pain and yes there are things I did not love about the BMW. My post was not to try and convince anyone to buy a BMW. I own this V and bought it for a reason after driving everything. Driving the new 5 series let me down and the M wasn't out yet. But I just don't see how the interiors are remotely comparable quality wise, not style wise, to each his own on style. Thanks.

pdetti
07-03-12, 07:44 AM
Mine is dead quiet. Mine has no issues. It will run circles around your 550i sport. Sorry you got a lemon. But you're on an island...

So if you push your hand or leg up against the center console in the V, it doesn't creak? Grab the door pull and squeeze it, no sound? Touch the instrument panel cover and it doesn't move like it is about to come off? My sunroof creaks around every non flat corner too. Yours is honestly dead Lexus quiet? I am sorry I just don't buy it but I sure would love for it to be true so I could go complain about it and get it fixed!

And FYI, I said right in my post the V was a second quicker than my 550. Performance is why I bought the V, I had just hoped it would have more luxury level materials that didn't creak like cheap plastic.

pdetti
07-03-12, 10:08 AM
Sorry if I sound like a dick, but I don't think you should question what cars others have owned. There is always someone that has cooler cars than you have. By the way, your 550 handled better than a V? Seriously?

In response to the handling comment... I am sure on a track the V would do better than my 550. No doubt, as it beat the previous M5. But for spirited driving around town, my 09 550 had much less body roll and connected you to the road so much better. Perhaps some of that is because the interior was dead quiet and not shifting around and creaking like everything in the V does. The 550 MSport was confidence inspiring. It snaked corners with precision. The V can do it but it is much more uneasy and sloppy feeling. Just my opinion. Now, the new 5 series MSport I drove before buying the V was awful. Very luxurious and high end interior but handled like a grandpa mobile. They ruined it in my opinion. For an MSport it was not sporty at all. I also don't love the way they look. I guess I just wish they gave us more settings of the magnetic ride control like my Corvette had. It would be nice to be able to really soften it up and go super stiff for all out driving. The difference currently is just not enough and it rolls a bit too much for me.

My $3400 Recarro seats also creak in the back. And this is after they replaced the tracks to keep it from shifting around laterally. Again, BMW Multi Contour Sport Seats they are not. Sorry.

RippyPartsDept
07-03-12, 11:00 AM
have you brought any of these concerns to the attention of your dealer?

pdetti
07-03-12, 03:47 PM
have you brought any of these concerns to the attention of your dealer?

Yes I have, but every one I have driven seems to creak and squeak in the same manner so can they really do anything about it?

RippyPartsDept
07-03-12, 04:28 PM
well yes there are things they can do about it

have you let them try?

pdetti
07-03-12, 05:24 PM
well yes there are things they can do about it

have you let them try?

Trust me they are not forthcoming with trying to do anythng. I did mention it again, and since they marked up a bunch of panels and the leather on my seat when they replaced the tracks it has to go back in again for all that to be fixed now.

Can you enlighten me as to what kinds of things they can try? Thanks!

RippyPartsDept
07-03-12, 05:31 PM
well that kind of answer is out of my area of expertise but a new car should not be creaking and squeaking

it sounds like you've got a dealer who isn't quite up to the Cadillac standards ... give them a chance to make it right then head up the food chain to customer service

visualguy
07-03-12, 06:30 PM
Just as an example - the door pulls squeak because of poor design - there's nothing the dealer can do about this. Mine has been doing it since it was new when the interior is warm. The door pull in the sedan is built in two layers sandwiched together with glue. It should be one piece to avoid squeaking.

thebigjimsho
07-03-12, 10:30 PM
So if you push your hand or leg up against the center console in the V, it doesn't creak? Grab the door pull and squeeze it, no sound? Touch the instrument panel cover and it doesn't move like it is about to come off? My sunroof creaks around every non flat corner too. Yours is honestly dead Lexus quiet? I am sorry I just don't buy it but I sure would love for it to be true so I could go complain about it and get it fixed!

And FYI, I said right in my post the V was a second quicker than my 550. Performance is why I bought the V, I had just hoped it would have more luxury level materials that didn't creak like cheap plastic.No creaking center console, no creaking door handle, my moonroof is DEAD QUIET. The only creak I get is if I push on the piano black trim, which I don't do. I'm not lying, anyone is welcome to meet up and ride along.

CIWS
07-04-12, 10:52 AM
If you want to dog on BMUU, then dog on mine a bit. 09 X6 50i. In the shop on Monday for a recall (turbo control board), while there they see crankcase pressure's a little high and replace two control valves to normalize it, also see a couple of slightly cracking hoses, replaced them. Updated the vehicle to the latest flash and then reloaded my Dinan stage 2 software. Mileage is at 40,590. No failures mind you but certainly some wear. (of course I don't drive it like a granny either) :D

concorso
07-04-12, 11:01 AM
well that kind of answer is out of my area of expertise but a new car should not be creaking and squeaking

it sounds like you've got a dealer who isn't quite up to the Cadillac standards ... give them a chance to make it right then head up the food chain to customer serviceTherein lies a major problem. After GM cut tonnes of dealers, the ability to simply go to a different dealer just doesnt exist for alot of owners. It is the big reason why I havent bought a V yet. My dealer is garbage, and when something breaks in the V, itll have to sit because I wouldnt let this dealer diagnose in my car, forget letting them work on it. GM STILL hasnt gained the neccessary control or influence over their dealers.

larry arizona
07-04-12, 11:23 AM
Pdetti,

I pushed my leg up against the center stack and had a brief creak but after that dead quiet no matter how hard I pushed on it. Center console no creak at all. Door pull where leather wrap attaches to handle does creak is you squeeze the sh!t of it, but normal use its quiet. Moon roof is dead quiet. My nav screen squealed a bit as it popped up the other day but the interior was probably 150F after sitting in a parking lot on a 100 degree day. Materials do expand and contract, just a fact of materials. I just dont get the bashing on this interior. Its beautiful.

concorso
07-04-12, 01:16 PM
I just had a chance to try my friends V. I tried to induce squeaking at all the places listed here, and the sunroof was the only creaker.

JFJr
07-04-12, 06:34 PM
You guys that have the automatics, you have too much time on your hands. If you really have to drive, you won't worry about the noises, or your perception of them. Actually drive the car, and give us your impressions.

Jud

CIWS
07-04-12, 07:54 PM
You guys that have the automatics, you have too much time on your hands. If you really have to drive, you won't worry about the noises, or your perception of them. Actually drive the car, and give us your impressions.

Jud

Or we take no pleasure in sitting in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic with a stick.

JFJr
07-04-12, 08:13 PM
Or we take no pleasure in sitting in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic with a stick.I live in big traffic; no problem.

Jud

Rich Browne
07-04-12, 09:29 PM
F
Or we take no pleasure in sitting in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic with a stick.

I'm in traffic hell as well. My V's manual is excellent and has made transformed the driving experience. It's just a blast to drive the damn thing - bumper to bumper or door to door. Don't knock it til you have spent some real seat time - nothin' cooler than a passenger sayin' "it's a stick? Really? In a Caddilac, damn"

CIWS
07-04-12, 09:43 PM
F

I'm in traffic hell as well. My V's manual is excellent and has made transformed the driving experience. It's just a blast to drive the damn thing - bumper to bumper or door to door. Don't knock it til you have spent some real seat time - nothin' cooler than a passenger sayin' "it's a stick? Really? In a Caddilac, damn"

Thanks mate, but I owned a 05 CTS-V and it only came in a stick.

Rich Browne
07-04-12, 09:55 PM
Thanks mate, but I owned a 05 CTS-V and it only came in a stick.

An 05 had a different transmission and shifter than the '12's. I understand they are quite different.

SoonerSpeedFreak
07-04-12, 10:31 PM
Another manuel VS. auto hijack! LOL.
I have had many sports cars. All manuels. But this is a 4 door Cadillac, in most case's, so not a sport's car. Yes it's an amazing car. Bargin. Major HP and speed. Fun. Cool. But a race car or sport's car it is not. Not to say you can't race it. You would think you guys have a Bugatti, indy car, or something. I am a stick fanatick. But the truth is they are both good and fun. Is the stick funner to drive than the manuel? HELL YES. Mine is an auto and I have driven both. I bought an auto because I wanted to. It's a freaking luxury car that happens to be pretty amazing in HP, speed, and handling. If I wanted another sports car it dam sure wouldn't have been a 4 door Cadillac! Hands down the stick is funner to drive. BUT. The auto is faster. Periode. Thats what they drove at the rings. Yes in the video Heinricy state's " that's what he was more comfortable driving at the ring's" even though he is a true race car driver. And Cadillac had the stick there as well. And is the auto more "city" driving friendly? HELL YES.
To each there own. Thats why they make both. Both have the strengths and weekness.
Back to the M5. It is bad ass. An amazing look at future inovations to come. It looks amazing. Per Car and Driver they still prefer the V on the track. Is it worth $25k more? Thats up to who ever buy's one. BMW is an amazing car and company. They are in a different class than Cadillac. Cadillac is closing the gap though. Performance and looks are there and to some better. Still need to work on fit. finish, and interior.
The next V will have more power. Guranteed. And the big key is weight loss. Cadillac is following the exact steps that have made the Corvetts get better and better every year for the past 10 years.

M5eater
07-04-12, 10:44 PM
double post..

M5eater
07-04-12, 10:45 PM
I live in big traffic; no problem.

Jud
yeah, I don't know. sitting in bumper to bumper for 30 minutes waiting to go through the down-town tunnel TWICE every day may change your mind.

The V2's clutch isn't exactly light, I can't say I let it spoil the rest of the car for me, but I wouldn't say it's 'no problem'. It sucks. The fact that there's enough torque to just roll it out helps, but in 100 degree weather eventually it gets the clutch hot, and your leg get's tired, and it's just not fun anymore.

DangFoo
07-04-12, 11:37 PM
No creaking center console, no creaking door handle, my moonroof is DEAD QUIET. The only creak I get is if I push on the piano black trim, which I don't do. I'm not lying, anyone is welcome to meet up and ride along.

Not even the mandatory moonroof creak ... come on man, that's just wrong. My moonroof cricks and cracks are character marks for my car.

Good on ya. :)

CIWS
07-05-12, 07:51 AM
An 05 had a different transmission and shifter than the '12's. I understand they are quite different.


Hahah OMG, now your even trying to nit pick the difference between manual transmissions. Hahah

pdetti
07-05-12, 03:20 PM
No creaking center console, no creaking door handle, my moonroof is DEAD QUIET. The only creak I get is if I push on the piano black trim, which I don't do. I'm not lying, anyone is welcome to meet up and ride along.

Where are you? I honestly would love nothing more than to find a V that didn't creak all over the place every time I hit a hard corner. The entire dash creaks. Roof creaks around any turn that isn't level. It isn't that I sit there and push my leg up against the console all day but the fact that when you do it creaks is why it all creaks when I hard brake or corner hard. It just ruins it for me. The car is otherwise very solid. Rides decent, handles good, obviously super fast, it is pretty amazing how much of a luxury car it feels like when you drive it all the while being faster than most Corvettes! If it didn't make all these cheapo creaky sounds that lessen the overall luxury feel, it really would seem much closer to the German level. The materials used in German luxury cars do not creak and squeak and move around. They just don't.

I am in upstate NY, if anyone is close with a V that doesn't have creaky plastic interior please let me know. I would love to witness it! Thanks everyone.

JFJr
07-05-12, 05:50 PM
Yes, fuel consumption needs to be lowered to be more comparable with the German competition.I wasn't aware that the German competition was particularly stingy on gas. Can you quote us the EPA figures for the AMG, M and V cars in the same weight and horsepower class? Does any car guy really care about that comparison?

Jud

larry arizona
07-05-12, 05:58 PM
JFjr,

I agree. The MPG is a non factor for most. If you can afford a $70K+ car AND can take a loss on a trade AND then go buy a $105k M5 I doubt MPG has much influence on what you are buying.

larry arizona
07-05-12, 06:04 PM
JFjr,

I agree. The MPG is a non factor for most. If you can afford a $70K+ car AND can take a loss on a trade AND then go buy a $105k M5 I doubt MPG has much influence on what you are buying. At 15K miles per year and IF the M5 gets even 5MPG average better than the V (probably not) but at $4 a gallon of gas you are looking at $1000 difference in fuel costs per year. If you are worried about that then a performance car may not be what you want anyways.

SoCal_V
07-05-12, 06:33 PM
JFjr,

I agree. The MPG is a non factor for most. If you can afford a $70K+ car AND can take a loss on a trade AND then go buy a $105k M5 I doubt MPG has much influence on what you are buying. At 15K miles per year and IF the M5 gets even 5MPG average better than the V (probably not) but at $4 a gallon of gas you are looking at $1000 difference in fuel costs per year. If you are worried about that then a performance car may not be what you want anyways.

The cost savings isn't as much of factor for me as usable driving range/mileage. >200mi per tank is unacceptable.

Larger tank would be nice...but why not save some coin and have a larger tank AND improved efficiency? Why waste the gas? It's not that we can't afford the low MPG....it's the principle of it. And having to stop every 200mi.

If given the choice between improved efficiency/better engineering design VS stone age efficiency, who and why would anyone ever choose the stone age option?

visualguy
07-05-12, 06:44 PM
The difference in fuel consumption between the CTS-V and M5 is very significant.

The CTS-V is 15.6 l/100km combined.
The M5 is 9.9 l/100km combined.

That's 58% higher for the CTS-V!

Beyond that, the M5 fuel tank is larger than that of the CTS-V. The M5 is 21.1 gal and the CTS-V is 18 gal.

Even if you don't care about the fuel consumption and cost, there's the problem of range. The M5 will require a lot fewer visits to the gas station.

larry arizona
07-05-12, 07:38 PM
City driving I get 270 miles per tank, Highway 350 miles . Its not that bad

pdetti
07-05-12, 07:46 PM
City driving I get 270 miles per tank, Highway 350 miles . Its not that bad

Do you drive around in 6th all the time? lol. If you even remotely "drive" a V you get 12mpg if that. That is no 270 per tank. I get around 210 usually I think for city.

shchow
07-05-12, 07:50 PM
The E60 M5 had an 18 gallon tank and I was getting 185-200 mile range.
CTS-V also has an 18 gallon tank and I get around 205-210 mile range.

Nobody would call the NA V10 in the E60 "stone age", yet it has worse efficiency than the pushrod Caddy.
When I look at a car, the fuel efficiency is not even on the radar.
And everybody that I know personally who look at these cars do not care what the mpg is...

thebigjimsho
07-05-12, 08:11 PM
Hahah OMG, now your even trying to nit pick the difference between manual transmissions. Hahah

Actually, C, they are a bit different. The stock shifter is excellent and the clutch take up is about as good. The mountains of torque make it much harder to stall and much easier to roll...

thebigjimsho
07-05-12, 08:12 PM
Do you drive around in 6th all the time? lol. If you even remotely "drive" a V you get 12mpg if that. That is no 270 per tank. I get around 210 usually I think for city.

On long highway drives at around 75-80, I get about 325 miles per tank.

thebigjimsho
07-05-12, 08:14 PM
Where are you? I honestly would love nothing more than to find a V that didn't creak all over the place every time I hit a hard corner. The entire dash creaks. Roof creaks around any turn that isn't level. It isn't that I sit there and push my leg up against the console all day but the fact that when you do it creaks is why it all creaks when I hard brake or corner hard. It just ruins it for me. The car is otherwise very solid. Rides decent, handles good, obviously super fast, it is pretty amazing how much of a luxury car it feels like when you drive it all the while being faster than most Corvettes! If it didn't make all these cheapo creaky sounds that lessen the overall luxury feel, it really would seem much closer to the German level. The materials used in German luxury cars do not creak and squeak and move around. They just don't.

I am in upstate NY, if anyone is close with a V that doesn't have creaky plastic interior please let me know. I would love to witness it! Thanks everyone.

Where exactly in upstate NY? My V often finds its way into NY state...

CIWS
07-05-12, 08:36 PM
Actually, C, they are a bit different. The stock shifter is excellent and the clutch take up is about as good. The mountains of torque make it much harder to stall and much easier to roll...

But no matter how good of a clutch, shifter etc one may have it's still a manual transmission that you have to push in a clutch and move a shifter - haha

That comment actually made my morning and put a smile on my face early on.

Break an arm or a leg and you're SOL.

thebigjimsho
07-05-12, 08:49 PM
And you still need to steer with at least one hand and constantly hit the brake and gas with the right foot. The focus is on how busy driving a manual in traffic is. But half of your body is already busy. So what if the other half is? It's a mental issue, not physical...

CIWS
07-05-12, 08:57 PM
I remember trying to drive the V only using one leg. That didn't last very long, and as a person who owns only one vehicle I realized I may get stuck with a stick. Besides now I love autos with paddle shifters, and as we're slowly seeing in the industry the higher end cars are abandoning the manual for dual clutch autos. The F10 M5 only gets it in the first year of production and then it's gone.

JFJr
07-05-12, 09:28 PM
On long highway drives at around 75-80, I get about 325 miles per tank.Yeah, when I hit that at 73 - 79 mph, I start looking for gas. It's doable if you're not boy racer on the highway.

Jud

larry arizona
07-05-12, 09:40 PM
pdetti, Trust me I "Drive" my V. But never drive like a big enough douchebag to get only 12MPG in a 6M. Time and a place for spirited driving, but I have enough respect and restraint to not piss everyone thats driving around me.

visualguy
07-05-12, 10:12 PM
I remember trying to drive the V only using one leg. That didn't last very long, and as a person who owns only one vehicle I realized I may get stuck with a stick. Besides now I love autos with paddle shifters, and as we're slowly seeing in the industry the higher end cars are abandoning the manual for dual clutch autos. The F10 M5 only gets it in the first year of production and then it's gone.

I broke both arms a couple of years ago in a bike accident. I had to drive my wife's auto for a while before healing enough to drive my manual again.

The F10 M5 will continue to have a manual option. BMW said they would be dropping the manual in the next model of the M5, but that's probably around 5 years in the future, and they may change their minds multiple times by then... If not, hopefully the CTS-V will be a good alternative by then. If all else fails, I guess a Porsche will remain an option, albeit not the same type of car.

CIWS
07-06-12, 05:58 AM
The F10 M5 will continue to have a manual option. BMW said they would be dropping the manual in the next model of the M5, but that's probably around 5 years in the future, and they may change their minds multiple times by then... If not, hopefully the CTS-V will be a good alternative by then. If all else fails, I guess a Porsche will remain an option, albeit not the same type of car.

Yep, my bad, I read "next model year" and just confirmed next generation. So the manual guys are safe for one more generation. :)

pdetti
07-06-12, 11:28 AM
Where exactly in upstate NY? My V often finds its way into NY state...

Capital Region.

pdetti
07-06-12, 11:31 AM
pdetti, Trust me I "Drive" my V. But never drive like a big enough douchebag to get only 12MPG in a 6M. Time and a place for spirited driving, but I have enough respect and restraint to not piss everyone thats driving around me.

Larry, I am not talking about driving like an idiot teenager either. Mine is Auto and it gets between 10.6 and 13.5 in the city. Unless a bunch of miles are at 50+ I never get more than that.

JFJr
07-06-12, 05:54 PM
Hey, car guys love high performance cars. The new M5 is interesting, and I would like to drive one. It may be too expensive, full of gadgetry, over-engineered, complex and hyped, but just because it's not my cup of tea doesn't mean it's a bad car. Without it we wouldn't have the best high performance American sedan, ever. But wait until we experience the V3! The games have really started.

Jud

thebigjimsho
07-06-12, 06:26 PM
Capital Region.Good, that means I can take Rte 2 if I ever get out your way...

buddyg
07-06-12, 07:02 PM
I completely agree with you.

visualguy
07-06-12, 11:23 PM
But wait until we experience the V3! The games have really started.


Where is GM going to get an engine that can compete with BMW's S63TU?

JFJr
07-06-12, 11:46 PM
Where is GM going to get an engine that can compete with BMW's S63TU?You are saying it's just about an engine; what about the suspension and suppose the V3 loses a few hundred pounds in weight? It may not have piped in engine noise from the stereo, but that only matters to the ladies anyway.

Jud

visualguy
07-07-12, 03:43 AM
You are saying it's just about an engine; what about the suspension and suppose the V3 loses a few hundred pounds in weight?

No, what I'm saying is that it's about getting everything right, including the engine. The V3 can't just have good power, suspension, steering, and brakes to be competitive with the M5. Cadillac will also need to get the fuel economy right, the interior right, etc. It's a complete package.

RippyPartsDept
07-07-12, 09:44 AM
I just realized that this is like comparing clementines and tangerines

they're kind of similar and compete with each other a little bit, but in reality they're not that similar

going with the citrus analogy they might look similar but they taste different
any given person might like the taste of one over the other
it's totally subjective
some people might be indifferent, like both equally, or not like either at all

there is no point in trying to convince someone that since you like the taste of one over the other that it makes that one better

larry arizona
07-07-12, 04:59 PM
Rippy,

I totally agree. I mentioned several pages ago that coming onto a V form and trying to convince us an M is better is pointless.

CIWS
07-08-12, 10:02 AM
Rippy,

I totally agree. I mentioned several pages ago that coming onto a V form and trying to convince us an M is better is pointless.

Considering this thread was started by a V owner, your argument is moot. The OP didn't post this to convince you or anyone else of anything, they simply posted a video of a performance comparison of the two models put online by R&T in which they said they preferred driving the Cadillac. Everything after that is simply silly humans and their egos arguing for the sake of it.

Ste_V_e
08-01-12, 01:03 AM
Considering this thread was started by a V owner, your argument is moot. The OP didn't post this to convince you or anyone else of anything, they simply posted a video of a performance comparison of the two models put online by R&T in which they said they preferred driving the Cadillac. Everything after that is simply silly humans and their egos arguing for the sake of it.


+1 I like both cars, but You know which 1 I choose :]

sandalet
12-21-13, 06:50 PM
got news for BMW?

RaVeNous
12-23-13, 10:32 AM
I like the new M5 - the M6 is even more pretty. They are very nice clean and understated cars. I don't like the prices, and I don't prefer the types of people who typical drive them. They just do't fit me personally, and I've looked at getting into an M3, M5, 335ix a couple of times and they have lost out to other cars which had more personality at a much better price.

I'm fine with a $100,000 car being faster than my car. I'm fine with Benz, BMW, and Audi making crazy fast cars, it just means better things for other automakers will be on the way.

Its because of the V2 that cars, especially sport sedans, are well below 4 seconds 0-60 and have 600hp+.