: Surprised this has never been posted here... Cars.com "American Made Index"...



Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 01:22 AM
Or... if it has, I've never seen it... Anyway, I was watching TV and a commercial for the local Toyota dealer (Eddy's) came up. I caught a quick snippet which said something to the effect of "TUNDRA... WITH MORE DOMESTIC PARTS CONTENT THAN ANY OTHER PICKUP TRUCK!". I thought to myself "The f*** you say?!"

So I decided to look into it and came across the following Cars.com article. Some surprising results here...

Fortunately, on this forum this discussion isn't much of an issue anymore, but for a lot of people, the perception of American made completely skews their purchasing decision. We all know of course that the Accord, Camry and others have been *built* here for the longest time, but, according to this list, ALL of the supposed Domestic pickup trucks for example fail in their actual domestic parts content level compared to their foreign branded counterpart. And it would seem from the article, that this is partly due to the fact that they know the average consumer just views the vehicle as "American" and thus they can get away with more international parts sourcing.

Of course, someone will always pose the argument "YEAH BUT ALL THE PROFITS GO TO JAPAN!". Given the global nature of today's economy, even that is a fairly weak position. More amusingly, today's announcement of a NHTSA investigation into the power window switch fires on Camrys which share the SAME part with Trailblazers and some other GM vehicles, only serve to make this more clear. Unfortunately, this also explains why so many Toyota vehicles have also gone down the shitter in materials quality, to the point where the domestics ARE in many cases a better buy...

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611&referer=&aff=national

brandondeleo
06-19-12, 01:48 AM
Now that's cool. Good find, dude!

cadi509
06-19-12, 01:56 AM
I've never heard any of the tundra owners complain about their truck most are very happy with them

brandondeleo
06-19-12, 02:01 AM
My grandpa has an '05 Tundra (quad cab, nice dark red color-matches their Avalon XLS of the same year), and it's a PHENOMENAL truck. Absolutely freaking awesome. It's heavily used and regularly tows very heavy loads very long distances. It's in perfect condition and has never needed a major repair, and it's at around 120k miles.

Jesda
06-19-12, 04:32 AM
I prefer the geographical tundra to the automobile.

http://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/images/terrain_alpine_tundra.jpg

Submariner409
06-19-12, 10:08 AM
I can find 2002 STS original parts - on the car right now - from at least 6 countries.

Lots of plastic and electrical in my '65 Chevelle was from Mexico and Canada.......

The Raven
06-19-12, 10:20 AM
Fortunately, on this forum this discussion isn't much of an issue anymore, but for a lot of people, the perception of American made completely skews their purchasing decision. We all know of course that the Accord, Camry and others have been *built* here for the longest time, but, according to this list, ALL of the supposed Domestic pickup trucks for example fail in their actual domestic parts content level compared to their foreign branded counterpart. And it would seem from the article, that this is partly due to the fact that they know the average consumer just views the vehicle as "American" and thus they can get away with more international parts sourcing.

Of course, someone will always pose the argument "YEAH BUT ALL THE PROFITS GO TO JAPAN!". Given the global nature of today's economy, even that is a fairly weak position. More amusingly, today's announcement of a NHTSA investigation into the power window switch fires on Camrys which share the SAME part with Trailblazers and some other GM vehicles, only serve to make this more clear. Unfortunately, this also explains why so many Toyota vehicles have also gone down the shitter in materials quality, to the point where the domestics ARE in many cases a better buy...

Wow...all kinds of wrong in here.

So it doesn't matter that the company that designs and builds the vehicles is based on foreign soil?

Here's one fact that should get people thinking - GM's R&D facilities ALONE pump more money into the US economy yearly than all of the Japanese automakers facilities on US soil COMBINED (that's inlucding R&D, Marketing, Production...everything). When you actually take into account ALL of GM (and this is the much smaller, post-bankruptcy GM), you can include all the money from all the import makers combined and you aren't even in the ballpark of GM ALONE...remember there's also that OTHER domestic automaker, that little-known brand with the blue oval...oh what's that name again? Anyway, it was a pretty big company last I checked.

I don't understand where this "parts content" argument comes from. Sure it's a point, but it's pretty insignificant when you look at the big picture. If anything, it's about supporting the companies that supply automakers, not the automakers themselves.

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 12:51 PM
Wow...all kinds of wrong in here.

So it doesn't matter that the company that designs and builds the vehicles is based on foreign soil?

Here's one fact that should get people thinking - GM's R&D facilities ALONE pump more money into the US economy yearly than all of the Japanese automakers facilities on US soil COMBINED (that's inlucding R&D, Marketing, Production...everything). When you actually take into account ALL of GM (and this is the much smaller, post-bankruptcy GM), you can include all the money from all the import makers combined and you aren't even in the ballpark of GM ALONE...remember there's also that OTHER domestic automaker, that little-known brand with the blue oval...oh what's that name again? Anyway, it was a pretty big company last I checked.

I don't understand where this "parts content" argument comes from. Sure it's a point, but it's pretty insignificant when you look at the big picture. If anything, it's about supporting the companies that supply automakers, not the automakers themselves.

*eyeroll* here we go again.

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 12:56 PM
That's what I said when I saw the thread title. Lulz

The Raven
06-19-12, 12:59 PM
*eyeroll* here we go again.

It's funny, that's exactly what I thought when I saw the title of this thread, and *eyeroll* is exactly what I did after reading the first post. This forum is like a repeating time loop in which the same arguments keep coming up, getting beat to death, then going silent for a few months before returning anew.

orconn
06-19-12, 01:04 PM
Yup, that's what it is!

brandondeleo
06-19-12, 01:42 PM
Welcome to CF. :lol:

Even I was here, got pissed off, disappeared for a little while, and came back. :histeric:

ltdltc
06-19-12, 02:35 PM
These lists are 100% bullshit. The Cadillac DTS had about 90% domestic manufactured content. More then the Camry which is 80%.

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 02:55 PM
It's funny, that's exactly what I thought when I saw the title of this thread, and *eyeroll* is exactly what I did after reading the first post. This forum is like a repeating time loop in which the same arguments keep coming up, getting beat to death, then going silent for a few months before returning anew.

Find another one?

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 02:58 PM
These lists are 100% bullshit. The Cadillac DTS had about 90% domestic manufactured content. More then the Camry which is 80%.

They factor in total sales numbers. Obviously these are just the top selling vehicles. On that scale the Camry vastly outsells the DTS.

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 03:21 PM
Wow...all kinds of wrong in here.

So it doesn't matter that the company that designs and builds the vehicles is based on foreign soil?

Here's one fact that should get people thinking - GM's R&D facilities ALONE pump more money into the US economy yearly than all of the Japanese automakers facilities on US soil COMBINED (that's inlucding R&D, Marketing, Production...everything). When you actually take into account ALL of GM (and this is the much smaller, post-bankruptcy GM), you can include all the money from all the import makers combined and you aren't even in the ballpark of GM ALONE...remember there's also that OTHER domestic automaker, that little-known brand with the blue oval...oh what's that name again? Anyway, it was a pretty big company last I checked.

I don't understand where this "parts content" argument comes from. Sure it's a point, but it's pretty insignificant when you look at the big picture. If anything, it's about supporting the companies that supply automakers, not the automakers themselves.

The reason this entire argument holds ZERO water is that it's become painfully clear that ALL of these companies are increasingly using the SAME suppliers. Cadillac uses ALPS, Ferrari uses Delphi (now a Chinese company anyway), Toyota sources window switches from the same suppliers as GM. And what, there was no R&D involved in developing those shared parts? What?

So what it really comes down to is that if we took these matters to a logical extreme, and said GM no longer produced cars in the US, and Toyota, MB etc produced the MAJORITY of their cars here, you would still choose the domestic manufacturer entirely on the 1950s thinking that you are "supporting the home team", when in fact, the jobs that are created and maintained by those other global firms are precisely the kinds of jobs lacking in the economy. Not Unionized, protected workers, but blue collar jobs available to ANY potential worker.

In other words, you are saying that you value "GM" the "corporation" more as an icon of Americana, than you do the jobs of those workers who are producing these imported brand products in the U.S.

Here's the deal. This is not the "same old discussion" about which cars are better. That horse has been beaten to death and frankly, I think most here are fairly level-headed when it comes to silly brand loyalties or nationalism type reasons for purchasing cars. We tend to purchase the vehicles we think are the best. GM vehicles are frequently on THAT list anyway. That is not the issue at stake.

The issue comes when a purchase decision by some average Joe is made entirely for the sake of nationalism rather than on the merits of the product itself, and said Joe ends up driving home a POS Avenger instead of the Camry that might have been a better choice for him on the merits of the vehicle itself. This list makes it clear that when comparing some of the most purchased vehicles in this country, more American DNA is actually a part of some of these vehicles, and not just CORPORATE DNA, but the actual sweat of American workers that need those jobs, than some of the very domestic vehicles they compete with. THAT is why this particular angle is different.

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 03:36 PM
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9655/derp.jpg

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 03:42 PM
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9655/derp.jpg

cool story, bro.

Like most of your posts, and I surmise most of your very existence, it contributes nothing of importance. And I'd LOVE to hear your argument.

Oh wait, Oh wait. I know how it goes... "Noob".

truckinman
06-19-12, 03:48 PM
Well, I'm not real surprised. A buddy of mine use to haul, on a daily basis, Dana axles to the Toyota plant in KY. I'm guessing those were for their trucks. Seeing as how none of their cars use a solid/live axle configuration.

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 03:53 PM
Well, I'm not real surprised. A buddy of mine use to haul, on a daily basis, Dana axles to the Toyota plant in KY. I'm guessing those were for their trucks. Seeing as how none of their cars use a solid/live axle configuration.

But hey, Dana didn't do any development or R&D work on those axles, right? They just popped into existence from the axle widget store warehouse that just happens to be in the U.S.

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 03:55 PM
cool story, bro.

Like most of your posts, and I surmise most of your very existence, it contributes nothing of importance. And I'd LOVE to hear your argument.

Oh wait, Oh wait. I know how it goes... "Noob".

My input on this topic? You took the words out of my mouth. Post #8.

Noob.

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 03:59 PM
My input on this topic? You took the words out of my mouth. Post #8.

Noob.

In other words, the justification of my above point.

Cool.

93DevilleUSMC
06-19-12, 04:00 PM
Buy and drive the brand you enjoy, regardless of where it is made. The end.

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 04:03 PM
In other words, the justification of my above point.

Cool.

Not sure that's much justification. Post #8 has your name on it.

You pwned your own thread.

Noob.

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 04:10 PM
Well yeah. You're just catching on now?

Again,

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9655/derp.jpg

Catching on to the utter lack of value you bring to ANY discussion? I think most of this community caught up with that LONG ago. Most just choose to ignore it. I'm just re-iterating it for anyone who has to scroll through pages of internet memes in order to actually read the input of those who have something worthwhile to contribute.

By all means carry on.

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 04:12 PM
Catching on to the utter lack of value you bring to ANY discussion? I think most of this community caught up with that LONG ago. Most just choose to ignore it. I'm just re-iterating it for anyone who has to scroll through pages of internet memes in order to actually read the input of those who have something worthwhile to contribute.

How can you have something worthwhile to contribute to a worthless topic?

That's always been the underlying point.

Noob.

Jesda
06-19-12, 04:13 PM
If you give a shit about America, you'll buy the BEST, regardless of manufacturer nationality.

Why? Because it forces domestic manufacturers to improve, compete, and become more efficient. You think Toyota's Kaizen philosophy was inspired by Detroit? Heck no. W.E. Deming tried to sell the notion of "continuous improvement" to Americans but only found a receptive audience in war-torn Japan.

Americans told him to piss off while the Japanese literally declared him a sacred treasure. He and other process/management experts are the reason why Japan experienced such dramatic growth after World War II. [Japan's baffling economic policies, unfortunately, have stunted growth.]


The only US auto brand to receive a Malcolm Baldrige quality award was Cadillac in 1990.




I happen love many domestic cars, but it isn't because they're domestic.

Jesda
06-19-12, 04:14 PM
How can you have something worthwhile to contribute to a worthless topic?

That's always been the underlying point.

Noob.

You're in over your head. Go be a moron somewhere else.

Playdrv4me
06-19-12, 04:14 PM
How can you have something worthwhile to contribute to a worthless topic?

That's always been the underlying point.

Noob.

How can anyone who isn't capable of contributing value to well... anything, have the ability to determine what is and isn't worthwhile?

WE SEEM TO HAVE ARRIVED AT AN IMPASSE.

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 04:19 PM
Somewhere else? You guys are the only idiots that ask for it. This thread's topic and content are proof. He just keeps biting.

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 04:23 PM
How can anyone who isn't capable of contributing value to well... anything, have the ability to determine what is and isn't worthwhile?


I wouldn't know since I just made that determination. Why don't you tell us? You created this masterpiece thread.

Noob.

orconn
06-19-12, 04:24 PM
"Can we just get along!"

brandondeleo
06-19-12, 04:24 PM
The fact that the words 'derp' and 'noob' were used in the first place discredits both of you. Buy what you love, enjoy it, and shut the hell up.

brandondeleo
06-19-12, 04:25 PM
"Can we just get along!"
http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/funny-celebrity-pictures-i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

Jesda
06-19-12, 04:53 PM
Somewhere else? You guys are the only idiots that ask for it. This thread's topic and content are proof. He just keeps biting.

The grown-ups are having a debate about global business and the auto industry.

If this offends or bores you, find a knitting forum and keep your blather to yourself.

gary88
06-19-12, 04:54 PM
I think this was supposed to be put somewhere.

http://i.imgur.com/YdsJH.gif

drewsdeville
06-19-12, 04:56 PM
The grown-ups are having a debate about global business and the auto industry.


They are somewhere, but not here.

The Raven
06-19-12, 04:58 PM
The reason this entire argument holds ZERO water is that it's become painfully clear that ALL of these companies are increasingly using the SAME suppliers. Cadillac uses ALPS, Ferrari uses Delphi (now a Chinese company anyway), Toyota sources window switches from the same suppliers as GM. And what, there was no R&D involved in developing those shared parts? What?

So what it really comes down to is that if we took these matters to a logical extreme, and said GM no longer produced cars in the US, and Toyota, MB etc produced the MAJORITY of their cars here, you would still choose the domestic manufacturer entirely on the 1950s thinking that you are "supporting the home team", when in fact, the jobs that are created and maintained by those other global firms are precisely the kinds of jobs lacking in the economy. Not Unionized, protected workers, but blue collar jobs available to ANY potential worker.

In other words, you are saying that you value "GM" the "corporation" more as an icon of Americana, than you do the jobs of those workers who are producing these imported brand products in the U.S.

Here's the deal. This is not the "same old discussion" about which cars are better. That horse has been beaten to death and frankly, I think most here are fairly level-headed when it comes to silly brand loyalties or nationalism type reasons for purchasing cars. We tend to purchase the vehicles we think are the best. GM vehicles are frequently on THAT list anyway. That is not the issue at stake.

The issue comes when a purchase decision by some average Joe is made entirely for the sake of nationalism rather than on the merits of the product itself, and said Joe ends up driving home a POS Avenger instead of the Camry that might have been a better choice for him on the merits of the vehicle itself. This list makes it clear that when comparing some of the most purchased vehicles in this country, more American DNA is actually a part of some of these vehicles, and not just CORPORATE DNA, but the actual sweat of American workers that need those jobs, than some of the very domestic vehicles they compete with. THAT is why this particular angle is different.


Let's take a look at what I actually said...


GM's R&D facilities ALONE pump more money into the US economy yearly than all of the Japanese automakers facilities on US soil COMBINED (that's inlucding R&D, Marketing, Production...everything).

The money I was talking about includes jobs, includes supporting suppliers, includes EVERYTHING on US SOIL. So, that means that regardless of the fact that Toyota/Honda/Nissan may buy more parts from US suppliers than domestic automakers, the money they have spent pales...no wait that doesn't cut it...amounts to a single bacteria in the drop in the bucket of what domestic manufacturers spend here. People just don't realize the sheer size of these companies.

This is not an argument and never has been. American automakers are still american, and japanese automakers are still japanese.

I don't assert that you need to buy an american car if you live in america. I simply take issue with those who attempt to justify their import purchase with this whole "parts content" argument. If you prefer an import vehicle on it's own merits, great. Just don't try to bullshit me by telling me that it's superior to american cars and that you are somehow smarter by owning it. This has become far less of an issue in the last two years however, since domestic automakers are now surpassing imports in quality and cost of ownership. Plus, they are making more exciting vehicles. People are talking about new Chevys and Fords now, not Toyotas and Hondas.

Jesda
06-19-12, 05:03 PM
Let's take a look at what I actually said...

The money I was talking about includes jobs, includes supporting suppliers, includes EVERYTHING on US SOIL. So, that means that regardless of the fact that Toyota/Honda/Nissan may buy more parts from US suppliers than domestic automakers, the money they have spent pales...no wait that doesn't cut it...amounts to a single bacteria in the drop in the bucket of what domestic manufacturers spend here. People just don't realize the sheer size of these companies.

This is not an argument and never has been. American automakers are still american, and japanese automakers are still japanese.

I don't assert that you need to buy an american car if you live in america. I simply take issue with those who attempt to justify their import purchase with this whole "parts content" argument. If you prefer an import vehicle on it's own merits, great. Just don't try to bullshit me by telling me that it's superior to american cars and that you are somehow smarter by owning it. This has become far less of an issue in the last two years however, since domestic automakers are now surpassing imports in quality and cost of ownership. Plus, they are making more exciting vehicles. People are talking about new Chevys and Fords now, not Toyotas and Hondas.

Now we're back on topic.

You make a valid point, yes, that there's more to it than parts content and corporate headquarters. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have an extensive reach in North America that goes beyond US/Canadian/Mexican supplier networks.


However, on a more philosophical [consumer] level, there's no reason to use any of this information to heavily influence a purchase. If two competing vehicles, foreign vs domestic, are otherwise equal, then yes, buying domestic does make a positive contribution on a macroeconomic level. Otherwise, consumer choices should be based primarily on quality, value, and design.

That said, the impact on GDP between a Malibu or Camry is quite similar.

Submariner409
06-19-12, 06:21 PM
^^^ Yeah, that.............

22 posts in this thread could be thrown in the circular file and change the overall intent and opinion not one iota. If the thread swings back to name-calling and "I'm better than you", it's gonzo.

93DevilleUSMC
06-19-12, 07:02 PM
The next ******* who shoves The Flag in my face over car brand national origin is going to get a boot in his. Same goes for the idiots whp rag the Camaro for being built in Canada.

talismandave
06-19-12, 08:03 PM
....well that's ten minutes of my life I will never get back...