: 2013 Boss 302 verus 2012 CTS-V



quikag
06-16-12, 11:28 AM
For your entertainment while you sip coffee this morning:
Contenders:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/quikag/photoboss1.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/quikag/boss2.jpg

Darnell
06-16-12, 12:46 PM
Awesome runs!

I can't tell you how happy I am to see these videos. A few weeks after I got my car I ran a friend in a 2012 GT with factory 3.73s, intake, exhaust, tune which should him close to a Boss in terms of power (I think he trapped 114ish) Anyway like in your runs the Mustang pulled initially, but when I stopped his pull and started to come back he got on his brakes.

quikag
06-16-12, 01:12 PM
K&N drop in filter on 302 and Airaid cold air intake on V. No tune or anything else on either car.
Honestly, I was really surprised with how strong my buddy's 302 ran. He's 5.0L NA with 444hp running against a 6.2L supercharged with 556hp and probably another 20hp with the CAI. The CAI picks up some good power on the V. So, for the 120+hp difference the Boss really held it's own up into triple digits.
Plus, the Boss sounds completely bada**. He has the discs or whatever dropped out of the side exhaust.

DangFoo
06-16-12, 04:16 PM
I might have to do the CAI on my V; you can hear that Supercharger working - nice! Good runs and I like both cars.

Ste_V_e
06-16-12, 09:41 PM
Get ready for the dislikes on the video. I just posted this on the ford forums and they don't take kindly to losing in the almighty 5low.0

I loved the video. Just imagine you started in gear and took off at the same time. Also driving with 1 hand and filming, I think your the boss in this scenario.

M5eater
06-16-12, 10:26 PM
Boss put up a good fight. That's crazy it pulled a couple of lengths on you before reeling him in.

I acutally went crazy for a second because I thought it was a 2013 GT500 for some reason.

thebigjimsho
06-17-12, 01:42 AM
The Boss is set up to be a good drag racer. Good power off the line but not too much. It makes great power up top, too.

baabootoo
06-17-12, 03:05 AM
That Mustang sounded like the Bullit one too!

Ste_V_e
06-17-12, 09:52 AM
lol I posted this in the boss 302 forum and it has a 106 views with no replies so far. The fanboys are mourning.

thebigjimsho
06-17-12, 05:28 PM
Why should they be mourning? They're probably saying "Well, duh..."

buddyg
06-17-12, 09:13 PM
Nice kill!

xstang
06-17-12, 11:52 PM
Why should they be mourning? They're probably saying "Well, duh..."

Exactly..

seriously.. Hp to weight is roughly 10 hp for every 100 lbs..

Weight advantage 650-700 lbs...
Cts-v +120..

= boss still down 50 to 60 hp..

Seems like a no brainer

Again the cts v was modded vs a stock boss.. The magazines all have the cts-v 117-119 in the magazines vs 114-115 for the boss stock before the extra 25 hp from the cai added by the cts-v.. Again, you have to be niave to think the outcome would be different.

This is my slow DD car. I have a big stick NA car for my big battles...

WA 2 FST
06-17-12, 11:56 PM
Are you guys running from a 20-30mph roll? The V isn't in 1st when you guys punch it, is it? If so, that is impressive that the Boss has such a gearing (torque multiplication) advantage on the bottom-end to pull out a length+ like it does. Top-end... yes, its a no-brainer... V wins. I am impressed the Boss was that close.

xstang
06-18-12, 12:04 AM
Are you guys running from a 20-30mph roll? The V isn't in 1st when you guys punch it, is it? If so, that is impressive that the Boss has such a gearing (torque multiplication) advantage on the bottom-end to pull out a length+ like it does. Top-end... yes, its a no-brainer... V wins. I am impressed the Boss was that close.

No, most of our runs were 55+ punches.... I didn't want to shut it down early like the ZL1 video that's been floating around.. If the Boss driver won't stay in, I think the stock cts-v and the stock boss are a 50-50 race up to 100. Providing you both hook, I don't think you will pull on until the top of third beginning of 4th on the Boss... The Boss would Probably shoot out 2-3 cars on a stck Cts-V, then it depends if the Boss driver will stay in it long enough for you to come back. This was a CTS-V with a 20-25hp CAI..

Ste_V_e
06-18-12, 01:08 AM
Oh god not one of these racers, Excuses for days. You lost end of story. Mod your car come back and get spanked again once the V pulley and tunes for $1k which is good for 100hp. Like IMV films said "the 100mph rule. You start at 5 you go to 105." on a track of course.

mannyz
06-18-12, 05:13 AM
at 50 mph....I guarantee you there is no way a stock boss will pull on me like that in a manual V. I'm right in the sweet spot and thats where my car pulls the hardest. If you know your car and can drive it, it's pretty good coming off a roll race in secong gear. Remember, there is no waiting for the car to respond.

Ste_V_e
06-18-12, 06:00 AM
at 50 mph....I guarantee you there is no way a stock boss will pull on me like that in a manual V. I'm right in the sweet spot and thats where my car pulls the hardest. If you know your car and can drive it, it's pretty good coming off a roll race in secong gear. Remember, there is no waiting for the car to respond.


+1 with 3.73 gears in the manual a 50 roll would be perfect. The op was just letting the auto kick down while the 5low.0 got the jump.

Maxniman
06-18-12, 08:58 AM
Why should they be mourning? They're probably saying "Well, duh..."

I agree

xstang
06-18-12, 09:10 AM
Oh god not one of these racers, Excuses for days. You lost end of story. Mod your car come back and get spanked again once the V pulley and tunes for $1k which is good for 100hp. Like IMV films said "the 100mph rule. You start at 5 you go to 105." on a track of course.

Are you serious? I'm not making excuses, it's the truth. I never thought I was going to win this race. We wanted to see how bad I was going to be pulled. I didn't go into this race with the expectations of winning.

On another note, I own a NA car that will pull a pullied CTS-V by bus lengths and probably spank a KB equipped V as well. I'm not that heartbroken that my stock DD Boss lost to a car that has 120 more horsepower than me. It's not rocket science... HP to weight wins races.. That's not an excuse, it's physics. This is hilarious.. LOL@ This "get spanked again once the V pulley and tunes for $1k which is good for 100hp"

The CTS-V stock for stock is faster than a BOSS 302...

M5eater
06-18-12, 09:25 AM
Are you serious? I'm not making excuses, it's the truth. I never thought I was going to win this race. We wanted to see how bad I was going to be pulled. I didn't go into this race with the expectations of winning.

On another note, I own a NA car that will pull a pullied CTS-V by bus lengths and probably spank a KB equipped V as well. I'm not that hearbroken that my stock DD Boss lost to a car that has 120 more horsepower than me. It's not rocket science... HP to weight wins races.. That's not an excuse, it's physics. This is hilarious.. LOL@ This "get spanked again once the V pulley and tunes for $1k which is good for 100hp"

The CTS-V stock for stock is faster than a BOSS 302...

Everyone knows the 12 year olds from the adults here. No need to fan any fires.

As I stated before, that was fantastic you pulled on the jump like that. Even if the A6 were in the right gear and didn't have to loose that .25 seconds kicking down, I bet it would have resulted in a similar situation.

*golf clap* for the Boss. It wasen't even really a slaughter after he started pulling, a loss certinally, but not by as much as I was expecting.


for the boss stock before the extra 25 hp from the cai added by the cts-v
I don't know about all that now.

xstang
06-18-12, 10:07 AM
Everyone knows the 12 year olds from the adults here. No need to fan any fires.

As I stated before, that was fantastic you pulled on the jump like that. Even if the A6 were in the right gear and didn't have to loose that .25 seconds kicking down, I bet it would have resulted in a similar situation.

*golf clap* for the Boss. It wasen't even really a slaughter after he started pulling, a loss certinally, but not by as much as I was expecting.


I don't know about all that now.

Exactly!! People just crack me up.... I mess around with cars for fun and just run them for grins. I don't cherry pick races. If someone wants to run me, I will even if I know the odds are way against me. Quikag wanted to see how he stacked up against a new Boss and wanted to see the car. We swapped cars and drove around. I'm very impressed with the top end of the V... Reminds me of my old 03Cobra. The Boss is solid until 100 or so, then it doesn't have the HP to keep up the steam. I do think headers, CAI, and tune would wake it up, but I'm not ready to void the warranty on my DD just yet. I 've never been able to keep a car stock, so we will see how that goes.. lol!

The 20-25 Hp from the CAI was hear say, I haven't looked it up... Sounds like 15-20 might be more in line with what people are seeing. (I don't know) Either way, I'm sure it still helped. The Boss with full bolt-ons should be a 121-123 car in the right conditions. Not bad for a 5.0 NA 3600lb car IMO.

Chrispy
06-18-12, 11:02 AM
Nice vids but take it to the track :)

I was at the track Friday night (TMP)

There was a beautiful yellow Boss 302 and a Black Stage 3 Roush Mustang (supercharged)

Boss was 13.1 at 110-112mph consistently and the Roush was 12.9-13.3 at 108-110mph. (Traction was poor and DA was over 1500feet)

My six speed manual Wagon ran a best ET of 12.4 and best MPH of 118.45mph on a 2.07 sixty. (Airaid only on stock PS2s)

A manual CTS V should easily beat a Boss 302 from a roll.

BTW - I think the Boss 302s are gorgeous cars and one of the best Ford has ever built so don't take my post as flaming...

WA 2 FST
06-18-12, 11:29 AM
No, most of our runs were 55+ punches.... I didn't want to shut it down early like the ZL1 video that's been floating around.. If the Boss driver won't stay in, I think the stock cts-v and the stock boss are a 50-50 race up to 100. Providing you both hook, I don't think you will pull on until the top of third beginning of 4th on the Boss... The Boss would Probably shoot out 2-3 cars on a stck Cts-V, then it depends if the Boss driver will stay in it long enough for you to come back. This was a CTS-V with a 20-25hp CAI..

Ok, thanks for the info. I just couldn't tell how fast you guys were going when you nailed it. At that speed, let's be honest, you definitely have the gearing/TQ multiplication advantage over the A6 CTS-V. I think from a rolling start in 1st gear (20-25mph), the V pulls away. This isn't meant as disrespect at all... I'm applying physics as well. We'll never know, since this is not how the races were set up. I'm curious where in Big D you found that airstrip (or wherever) to run (not asking you to post publicly, of course). I've owned a slew of late-model Mustangs, and cut my teeth in drag racing building a 10-sec 5.0 car back in the mid, late -90s... so I'm not a hater.

xstang
06-18-12, 11:56 AM
Ok, thanks for the info. I just couldn't tell how fast you guys were going when you nailed it. At that speed, let's be honest, you definitely have the gearing/TQ multiplication advantage over the A6 CTS-V. I think from a rolling start in 1st gear (20-25mph), the V pulls away. This isn't meant as disrespect at all... I'm applying physics as well. We'll never know, since this is not how the races were set up. I'm curious where in Big D you found that airstrip (or wherever) to run (not asking you to post publicly, of course). I've owned a slew of late-model Mustangs, and cut my teeth in drag racing building a 10-sec 5.0 car back in the mid, late -90s... so I'm not a hater.

Were you ever on the c6 forums (your name looks familiar)? I have a low 10sec (high 9's if I'm lucky C6 454CID A6 3200 stall). I'm a Chevy guy at heart, but I liked the Boss for a daily driver. I just thought the Boss would be a fun DD. It's the best NA motor Ford has built since I've been old enough to drive (I'm 39).

I really don't think it would be wise to discuss the location on the forums.

Xaqtly
06-18-12, 12:14 PM
Out of curiosity, why choose the Boss for a DD? The Boss is Ford's purpose built track car, it's probably the worst mustang to daily drive in terms of NVH. I mean for the specific purpose of daily driving a car, it makes more sense to just go with a normal GT I would think.

xstang
06-18-12, 12:34 PM
Out of curiosity, why choose the Boss for a DD? The Boss is Ford's purpose built track car, it's probably the worst mustang to daily drive in terms of NVH. I mean for the specific purpose of daily driving a car, it makes more sense to just go with a normal GT I would think.

Because it's a great package out of the box. I don't need to add an exhaust for sound etc. I drive 18 miles roundtrip each day, so it's plenty comfortable for a daily driver. It's rare and a great motor if I decide I want to add more power later. GT's are fairly common, so the appeal wasn't there for me to be honest. I agree though, bang for buck it's hard to beat the GT.

Thats like asking the CTS-V DD guys why they didn't buy the CTS.. Same thing..

M5eater
06-18-12, 12:40 PM
Out of curiosity, why choose the Boss for a DD? The Boss is Ford's purpose built track car, it's probably the worst mustang to daily drive in terms of NVH. I mean for the specific purpose of daily driving a car, it makes more sense to just go with a normal GT I would think.

For a DD, I'd choose a Boss over a GT500 or a GT too.

A GT is too common, And a GT500 (as per the edmunds review which hit the nail on the head) is a handful. a Boss though. It sings all the right notes just so, at least for someone that wants something he can DD but not be seen in the same light as 30 year old women.

Xaqtly
06-18-12, 01:13 PM
Thats like asking the CTS-V DD guys why they didn't buy the CTS.. Same thing..

Ohhhh, no no no. I mentioned NVH specifically, because the boss has the harshest ride and is the loudest out of all the mustangs. It's not about the power. See, I drove a Subaru STi as a DD for a year and while it was a great track car, handled very well, was relatively light and nimble and was a lot of fun to drive, it was not a good daily driver car. It would be a good daily driver car if you drove to work on a race track. The Boss is the same thing, it's a track car. That's why the GT is a better DD car, not from a performance perspective but from a comfort and NVH perspective.

The CTS-V is not a track car, it's a GT car. It's fantastic as a daily driver, specifically because it's quiet and it's comfortable, two things the Boss is not. The Boss has a very stiff suspension and a live axle, it's just not a great cruising car. It's much better at being a track car. That's why I was wondering why you would want a Boss as a daily driver. Not because it's not a great performance car, it is - but because what makes it a great performance car are the compromises you have to make in the NVH and ride quality departments.

I like the Boss, and I would get one as a track car but not a daily driver. If I had to drive a Mustang on a daily basis I'd get a GT or a GT500. That's why I was asking, because strictly in terms of driving the car every day on standard roads, the Boss seems like it would be the worst in that regard.


For a DD, I'd choose a Boss over a GT500 or a GT too.

A GT is too common, And a GT500 (as per the edmunds review which hit the nail on the head) is a handful. a Boss though. It sings all the right notes just so, at least for someone that wants something he can DD but not be seen in the same light as 30 year old women.

Oh, so it's about image and what you think other people think of you? OK, I guess I'm just not that insecure about it. I really do not give a single crap about what other people think of what I drive, so I've never based a car purchase on how I think other people will perceive me. Or on how common or uncommon the car is. Those seem like bad reasons to buy a car, lol. I was just asking about the DD thing because as I said, I've owned and daily driven a car that is basically a street legal track car, and while I loved the car in the right context, it was not a very good daily driver.

M5eater
06-18-12, 01:46 PM
Oh, so it's about image and what you think other people think of you? OK, I guess I'm just not that insecure about it. I really do not give a single crap about what other people think of what I drive, so I've never based a car purchase on how I think other people will perceive me. Those seem like bad reasons to buy a car, lol
Perception and fullment in one's self is at least a protion of car purchasing. Otherwise Bently and Rolls would have been out of the business long ago. My reference to sings the correct tunes was to the effect that the car handle's better and sounds better than the GT. My acceptable level of comfort and what I want in a car is different than yours. That doesn't make it a bad reason to purchase a car.


I like the Boss, and I would get one as a track car but not a daily driver. If I had to drive a Mustang on a daily basis I'd get a GT or a GT500. That's why I was asking, because strictly in terms of driving the car every day on standard roads, the Boss seems like it would be the worst in that regard.


By your own admittion you drove a STI for a year that was a horrible DD, so... you DD horrible DD's but other people can't?

Trapspeed
06-18-12, 01:49 PM
Any American car that will run like that off the showroom floor- Chevy, Ford, you name it- gets my respect. Good looking car, too!

quikag
06-18-12, 01:53 PM
The Boss may not be a very good daily driver from your subjective criteria, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't rather DD a Boss than a Mustang GT or GT500. It's that simple. You seem to blanket your opinion and priorities with what everyone should think. That's ridiculous and you know it.

I'd personally rather DD a Boss than Mustang GT. It would be more fun. Who gives a crap if the NVH isn't as good as a GT.

Based on your priorities, you should DD an old Lincoln Town Car or Cadillac DeVille, Xaqtly.

xstang
06-18-12, 02:07 PM
For a DD, I'd choose a Boss over a GT500 or a GT too.

A GT is too common, And a GT500 (as per the edmunds review which hit the nail on the head) is a handful. a Boss though. It sings all the right notes just so, at least for someone that wants something he can DD but not be seen in the same light as 30 year old women.

I already have a Vette, and I'm happily married...

If you get a chance to drive a Boss with the discs removed, the sound is worth buying the car. Out of all the cars I've owned, it's by far the most exhilarating from a sound standpoint. It sounds like a Nascar "in car" cam. no Joke!

Here are the other cars, so you can see I have a little experience with cars.
2000 Supercharged Mustang GT 111 trap speed
2003 03 Cobra 126 trap speed
2003 Evo 112 trap speed
2005 Corvette H/C LS2.. 125 trap speed
2008 454 CID C6 Ls3 138-144?????? trap speed (before the motor swap 11.0 at 124)
2013 Boss ???

xstang
06-18-12, 02:24 PM
Ohhhh, no no no. I mentioned NVH specifically, because the boss has the harshest ride and is the loudest out of all the mustangs. It's not about the power. See, I drove a Subaru STi as a DD for a year and while it was a great track car, handled very well, was relatively light and nimble and was a lot of fun to drive, it was not a good daily driver car. It would be a good daily driver car if you drove to work on a race track. The Boss is the same thing, it's a track car. That's why the GT is a better DD car, not from a performance perspective but from a comfort and NVH perspective.

The CTS-V is not a track car, it's a GT car. It's fantastic as a daily driver, specifically because it's quiet and it's comfortable, two things the Boss is not. The Boss has a very stiff suspension and a live axle, it's just not a great cruising car. It's much better at being a track car. That's why I was wondering why you would want a Boss as a daily driver. Not because it's not a great performance car, it is - but because what makes it a great performance car are the compromises you have to make in the NVH and ride quality departments.

I like the Boss, and I would get one as a track car but not a daily driver. If I had to drive a Mustang on a daily basis I'd get a GT or a GT500. That's why I was asking, because strictly in terms of driving the car every day on standard roads, the Boss seems like it would be the worst in that regard.



Oh, so it's about image and what you think other people think of you? OK, I guess I'm just not that insecure about it. I really do not give a single crap about what other people think of what I drive, so I've never based a car purchase on how I think other people will perceive me. Or on how common or uncommon the car is. Those seem like bad reasons to buy a car, lol. I was just asking about the DD thing because as I said, I've owned and daily driven a car that is basically a street legal track car, and while I loved the car in the right context, it was not a very good daily driver.

Have you driven a Boss? If not, maybe Quikag will chime in to share his insight on the Boss as a DD since. For me, it's a total blast and isn't uncomfortable in the least bit. Considering my 18 total miles each day, it wasn't even in the decision process.

It's by far the most fun car (straight from the factory) I've driven from a handling, sound and performance standpoint. I love driving cars that are totally connected to the road/ stiffer suspension. My C6's are second, but neither can compare in regards to the overall experience (sound, revs, handling).

Xaqtly
06-18-12, 03:07 PM
Perception and fullment in one's self is at least a protion of car purchasing.

Well you can just speak for yourself on that one. Perception is not at all a part of any car purchase I make.


My reference to sings the correct tunes was to the effect that the car handle's better and sounds better than the GT.

Yeah, I never said it didn't. My point was about noise, vibration and harshness, and enduring it while daily driving it. Come on, at least read what I'm saying if you're going to respond to it.


PBy your own admittion you drove a STI for a year that was a horrible DD, so... you DD horrible DD's but other people can't?

It was not a good DD, which is why I'm not driving it any more. Were you not aware that I'm driving a CTS-V now? lol. That was the reason I got a CTS-V for a daily driver, because the STi was not a good DD for the same reasons I wouldn't DD a Boss. Not because it's not a fun car to drive, but because on a 60 mile round trip commute you are only using a tiny percentage of the car's potential, and you're putting up with the compromises necessary to make a car into a good track car. Hence my mention of NVH.

Also, I never said "other people can't" drive whatever they want. Don't put words in my mouth, it's obnoxious.


The Boss may not be a very good daily driver from your subjective criteria, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't rather DD a Boss than a Mustang GT or GT500. It's that simple. You seem to blanket your opinion and priorities with what everyone should think. That's ridiculous and you know it.

I didn't say other people wouldn't rather DD a Boss. Where did you get the idea I said that? Also, I did state my opinion based on my experiences, but I did NOT tell anybody what they should think. It would be ridiculous to say something like that, which is why I didn't say anything like that. You, like M5eater, need to pay closer attention to what I'm actually saying, as opposed to what you think I'm saying. And stop being so defensive about it.


Have you driven a Boss? If not, maybe Quikag will chime in to share his insight on the Boss as a DD since. For me, it's a total blast and isn't uncomfortable in the least bit. Considering my 18 total miles each day, it wasn't even in the decision process.

I drive a lot more than that per day, maybe that has something to do with it. But I haven't driven a Boss on a daily basis either, so I can't say whether it's better or worse than my STi was. I do know it's a lot stiffer and harsher than a GT though, and that's really where I was coming from, as somebody who has driven a more harsh and stiff car on a daily basis.


It's by far the most fun car (straight from the factory) I've driven from a handling, sound and performance standpoint. I love driving cars that are totally connected to the road/ stiffer suspension. My C6's are second, but neither can compare in regards to the overall experience (sound, revs, handling).

Yeah, I like the Boss. I also like cars that handle well, that can take corners, are well balanced, there's nothing wrong with that. But after a while, driving that kind of car every day in a commuting situation, you know on straight freeways with speed traps and traffic, became more of a chore than a joy. The STi, like the Boss, was the kind of car that felt at home in turns, on a track or even just on on-ramps. But if all you do is drive it 60 miles on mostly straight freeway, where you can't have any fun with it because of speed traps and traffic...

Let's just say if I had a nice twisty back road to commute on I might not have sold my STi. But for an average commute like mine, the CTS-V is way better. And if I had only Mustangs to choose from I'd still want to buy the Boss because I think it's the best all around performing model, but I'd run into the same problem I had with the STi, namely that I wouldn't be able to push it on the freeway, and as a daily driver it wouldn't make any sense to me. But that's why I was asking.

M5eater
06-18-12, 03:25 PM
You, like M5eater, need to pay closer attention to what I'm actually saying, as opposed to what you think I'm saying. And stop being so defensive about it.


What are you saying, exactly? Because it's pretty confusing right now. Like most conversations with you, we're at the point where you're taking everything in some negative way and comming off like a know-it-all.

So, are you saying;

That the 302 is a more hardcore stang?
Agreed.

That because of that it's a worse DD?
That's a matter of opinion I believe. Is a GT softer, absolutely. Do people's wants differ from yours? Absolutely.

quikag
06-18-12, 03:52 PM
What are you saying, exactly. Because it's pretty confusing right now. Like most conversations with you, we're at the point where you're taking everything in some negative way and comming off like a know-it-all.

So, are you saying;

That the 302 is a more hardcore stang?
Agreed.

That because of that it's a worse DD?
That's a matter of opinion I believe. Is a GT softer, absolutely. Do people's wants differ from yours? Absolutely.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Chrispy
06-18-12, 04:33 PM
This debate is kind of pointless...different strokes for different folks.

The Boss 302 is comfortable and sounds awesome. It's also rarer and faster than a 5.0 GT.

I'd pick it over a GT500 and GT as well.

I know guys that commute 100miles a day in a cramped Lotus or a GT3 Porsche. They love every second of their drive. It's about what gives you happiness behind the wheel, not what anyone else thinks.

WA 2 FST
06-18-12, 04:36 PM
Were you ever on the c6 forums (your name looks familiar)? I have a low 10sec (high 9's if I'm lucky C6 454CID A6 3200 stall). I'm a Chevy guy at heart, but I liked the Boss for a daily driver. I just thought the Boss would be a fun DD. It's the best NA motor Ford has built since I've been old enough to drive (I'm 39).

I really don't think it would be wise to discuss the location on the forums.

Yes, I'm on the C6/C5 forum, Z06 forum, etc. I just don't post a lot anymore. My LPE TT Z06 has run a best of 11.2 @ 140mph through the traps (obviously spinning, and off power, til 200-300' or so). It's an absolute screamer from a roll, and has perfect street manners.

Don't worry... I didn't ask you to disclose the locale of the runs. :) Good luck to you!

Xaqtly
06-19-12, 01:48 PM
What are you saying, exactly? Because it's pretty confusing right now. Like most conversations with you, we're at the point where you're taking everything in some negative way and comming off like a know-it-all.

And all of that is because you have a tendency to jump on me without actually reading what I'm saying. Go read my first post again. Read it two or three times if you need to. Did I say people can't drive what they want? Did I say everybody has to think like me? Did I say my opinion is the only one that matters? I think you'll find that I didn't say any of that, and yet you responded to me as though I had. Whose fault is that? When you stop reacting to things I haven't said, I think you'll find that our conversations will go smoother.


That the 302 is a more hardcore stang?
Agreed.

Yes, I did say that a number of times.


That because of that it's a worse DD?
That's a matter of opinion I believe. Is a GT softer, absolutely.

Yes, that's something else I mentioned a number of times. Glad to see you're on board with the basic facts. And yes, whether it's a better or worse DD is a matter of opinion, which is why I never positioned it as anything other than my opinion. My opinion which has some basis in experience, as I pointed out. Seriously, go back and read what I said again. You'll find that I never told anybody what to think.


Do people's wants differ from yours? Absolutely.

Yes, and I never said anything contrary to that. Unless of course you'd like to show me where I did. See what I mean about you jumping on things I say without reading or understanding them? Maybe as a rule of thumb from now on you should read everything I say three times before responding. It will help to avoid another conversation in which you misinterpret what I say, and respond to things I'm not saying.

And I'm not kidding about this, you need to go back to the first post I made in this thread and read it again, and again until you realize that I said none of the things you're accusing me of saying. If you want an example of why this is a problem, here it is:


By your own admittion you drove a STI for a year that was a horrible DD, so... you DD horrible DD's but other people can't?

All I can assume is that at this point you've gone into some kind of defensive knee-jerk nerd rage and you've decided it's not really necessary to actually read what I'm saying, since it's easier to just take shots at me based on... well, nothing at all. If you had simply taken the time to actually read and understand my posts, you wouldn't have felt a need to accuse me of hypocrisy and of telling people what they can and can't do.

My posts aren't the problem here, your over the top reactions to them are. Tone it down and have an adult conversation like the rest of us.

xstang
06-21-12, 02:55 PM
I have to be honest, the cts-v would be my first choice if I could swing that and my Vette. That said the Boss was a great option. The cts-v seems srong at speed, but seems a tad floaty in the highway dips.. The rise and fall effect. The thing I dont like about the Boss is the tranny. I'm having to learn how to drive again. The car will give you a neutral lockout if the second to third gear shift isnt perfect in higher rpms. That said, they are both great options..

cadillaxe
06-23-12, 09:19 AM
a few years ago i was in Jax in my '04 GTO, which still has an LS1 engine in it. Two kids in a cts-v sedan (before i had any idea what was under their hood) messed with me, and when i punched it, all i heard was their tires bark and see them handing my a$$ to me. with these sporty coupes, more people know what they can do, but i bet plenty caddy's still surprise unsuspecting hotrodders.

hopefully later this year i'll be sending the goat to a good new home and welcoming a raven black V coupe. then a call to hennessey to send the gofast parts...

xstang
06-23-12, 11:02 PM
a few years ago i was in Jax in my '04 GTO, which still has an LS1 engine in it. Two kids in a cts-v sedan (before i had any idea what was under their hood) messed with me, and when i punched it, all i heard was their tires bark and see them handing my a$$ to me. with these sporty coupes, more people know what they can do, but i bet plenty caddy's still surprise unsuspecting hotrodders.

hopefully later this year i'll be sending the goat to a good new home and welcoming a raven black V coupe. then a call to hennessey to send the gofast parts...

I wasn't surprised at all because I had a heavy 03 Cobra (roots blower) and two LS engines. It was just a matter of how much - lol!. The Boss hangs fine up to 100, then it's lights out! I think it would have been a little closer without the CAI, but I have no doubt the V would have yanked me on the top end. I'd like to do an offroad midpipe to equal out the CAI, then race and run them again from a dig to 100.. (I figured out launch control - You have to leave autotrac on or you light the tires up on the street)

cadillaxe
06-24-12, 09:35 AM
I wasn't surprised at all because I had a heavy 03 Cobra (roots blower) and two LS engines. It was just a matter of how much - lol!. The Boss hangs fine up to 100, then it's lights out! I think it would have been a little closer without the CAI, but I have no doubt the V would have yanked me on the top end. I'd like to do an offroad midpipe to equal out the CAI, then race and run them again from a dig to 100.. (I figured out launch control - You have to leave autotrac on or you light the tires up on the street)

pretty humbling, as it's just not natural to see a caddy badge on the car destroying the muscle car you're driving. I guess that was probably how the guy on the crotch rocket felt as i screamed by him hanging sideways off my souped up sportster around the curve on the clover that day.

Most-wanted
06-30-12, 02:23 PM
Some of the replies are so funny. Too bad the V can't even think about keeping up with the Ford on a road course for which it was built. The only fan bois I see are the caddy guys here. Wanna do straight line racing let's see how the V does against the Shelby. LOL. Face it, the Caddy is an overpriced grocery getter in which GM has misrepresented. Without a diff cooler the car does not perform as advertised.

mannyz
06-30-12, 03:31 PM
Have you even driven it at the track? It's not THAT far off in lap times considering the type of car it is and the comforts it provides. Give credit where its due, but to say the CTS-V has been misrepresented....you're pulling shit out of your ass. That's like saying Jessica Biel is not attractive. Boss is a great car as well.

Most-wanted
06-30-12, 04:00 PM
My ctsv failed on the road course due to a diff cooling problem. So yes GM has misrepped the car in my opinion. It s a highly recognized problem yet GM wont address it. The car on the Nurburgring has a factory installed diff cooler which is not available state side. GM knows this is a huge problem and thats why the ZL1 with the same powertain has the exact diff cooler factory installed. So nothing is coming out of my ass. They promote it as a great track day car yet it can not go more than 10 minutes without flashing lights telling you to slow down. No my problem wasnt fliud level, etc. It was right where it should be. No problems though, I sold the car with only 3K miles. I dont have time to keep taking a car to the dealer for problems after a HPDE event. I love the CTSV. I think its an awesome daily driver. Looks amazing, sounds amazing, and everything else. But it is NOT a track car. Not even close.... Can you make it a track car, sure. You can make anything a track car with the right amount of money. Just my opinion. Ive had two CTSV's, loved them both. Getting rid of the last one was a very difficult decision. But I want to do track days and cant justify 4 new rotors and a service visit after every event. If you drive the car hard and on a fast pace the car fatigues. Its just too heavy and doesnt have enough cooling.

shchow
06-30-12, 04:37 PM
For anyone to think that a 4300lb 4 door sedan is a track car would be silly.
The CTS-V was never marketed as a track car.
It is a performance sedan that is capable on a track.
Anyone who bought the Caddy as a track car is delusional.
There are plenty of much less expensive and smaller and more nimble and lighter vehicles to choose from than the CTS-V.

EricVonHa
06-30-12, 05:07 PM
This thread really turned into crap.

Nice videos. The V is an animal. Never ceases to amaze me that GM has created a car (and drivetrain) that can be sooo docile in stop and go traffic. And, then still kick the snot out of most sports cars on the road.

Quickag, say hi to the rest of the ZTP crowd for me..

quikag
06-30-12, 05:46 PM
Will do, Eric.

Most-Wanted, please go somewhere else. Your incessant whining is grating the nerves of everyone else. Buying a V and thinking it can do hard track sessions with zero mods is delusional at best and downright stupid and dangerous at worst. Heck, my ZR1 is marginal for very hard track sessions when the ambient temp is around 100F or above. I've gotten the coolant warning before under those conditions. Will I cry like a baby and sell it because my $100k+ Vette gave me a warning on the track. Nope because as a street car it will always have limitations.

cadillaxe
06-30-12, 06:04 PM
yeah, Jessica Biel, mmmm...:2thumbs: wait, what was the original question?

part of the reason i'm about 95% sure on the caddy over other cars is the balanced feature set. i don't expect to grip curves quite like my old 911 turbo, be as cheap as a pre-recall pinto, or get the mileage of some exhaust-by-folgers skeeter eater car. However, it does still have a ton of power, i could still fit 4 comfortably while riding in recaro seats with a huge collection of metal on the tunes, and a guitar or gun case in the trunk. It may not be best at any one category, but it gets A- is in all subjects to me. I'd be buying it for what it is, not judging it for what it's not.

If i REALLY need to go fast and handle well, there's really nothing that will touch one of the current garage residents anyway. (umm, to clarify, i meant the bike. why would i keep the model in the garage?)

DangFoo
06-30-12, 07:43 PM
Will do, Eric.

Most-Wanted, please go somewhere else. Your incessant whining is grating the nerves of everyone else. Buying a V and thinking it can do hard track sessions with zero mods is delusional at best and downright stupid and dangerous at worst. Heck, my ZR1 is marginal for very hard track sessions when the ambient temp is around 100F or above. I've gotten the coolant warning before under those conditions. Will I cry like a baby and sell it because my $100k+ Vette gave me a warning on the track. Nope because as a street car it will always have limitations.

Well said!

thebigjimsho
07-01-12, 12:47 AM
Some of the replies are so funny. Too bad the V can't even think about keeping up with the Ford on a road course for which it was built. The only fan bois I see are the caddy guys here. Wanna do straight line racing let's see how the V does against the Shelby. LOL. Face it, the Caddy is an overpriced grocery getter in which GM has misrepresented. Without a diff cooler the car does not perform as advertised.

You're a joke. Have fun in whatever car you have next. My V will still rip up the road courses...

M5eater
07-01-12, 10:49 AM
You're a joke. Have fun in whatever car you have next. My V will still rip up the road courses...

His way about it is the worst way possible, but some of his points are valid. The CTS-V is not a ready track car, it's close, but close doesn't cut it in super sedan world.. There's the diff cooler, and if you search around, there are a few people that have starved the TR-6060 of oil/overheated it on high-G turns at some road courses doing 100+MPH. The stock cooling circuit for the 6MT (and the 6L90E) is probably slightly inadequate, as is likely the oil cooling circuit. Without a temperature probe I couldn't say for sure. However I know 6 quarts with a 556HP engine and a water/air oil cooler designed for a 430hp engine sounds like a bad idea. It's an even worse idea with a synthetic blend motor oil they're use (which imo, is more evidence to suggest they don't expect people to track these)

Going through brakes is a fact of life of any 4000lb+ car..at least they continue to stop the car, BMW is not so well known for their stopping prowess under hard track conditions. However, other cars of this class *are* track ready out of the box sans brake pad changes and fluid flushes. The CTS-V simply is not. The V probably gets off easier than most since a $2k oil cooler could made it ready, but it's the fact that GM doesn't even make this available to us that jerks me the wrong way.

I'm not sure whether Cadillac has mislead it's customers in believing that it's track ready, but I do know that when I started reading that people were over-heating their diff's, that the overseas car's got these coolers and that it wasn't available to us at all, I know that I felt mis-lead.

V locity
07-01-12, 10:58 AM
Nice Kill! Next time, let's see it with a cup of starbucks in your hand & some classical music on the radio. LOL...

cadillaxe
07-02-12, 07:54 AM
His way about it is the worst way possible, but some of his points are valid. The CTS-V is not a ready track car, it's close, but close doesn't cut it in super sedan world.. There's the diff cooler, and if you search around, there are a few people that have starved the TR-6060 of oil/overheated it on high-G turns at some road courses doing 100+MPH. The stock cooling circuit for the 6MT (and the 6L90E) is probably slightly inadequate, as is likely the oil cooling circuit. Without a temperature probe I couldn't say for sure. However I know 6 quarts with a 556HP engine and a water/air oil cooler designed for a 430hp engine sounds like a bad idea. It's an even worse idea with a synthetic blend motor oil they're use (which imo, is more evidence to suggest they don't expect people to track these)

Going through brakes is a fact of life of any 4000lb+ car..at least they continue to stop the car, BMW is not so well known for their stopping prowess under hard track conditions. However, other cars of this class *are* track ready out of the box sans brake pad changes and fluid flushes. The CTS-V simply is not. The V probably gets off easier than most since a $2k oil cooler could made it ready, but it's the fact that GM doesn't even make this available to us that jerks me the wrong way.

I'm not sure whether Cadillac has mislead it's customers in believing that it's track ready, but I do know that when I started reading that people were over-heating their diff's, that the overseas car's got these coolers and that it wasn't available to us at all, I know that I felt mis-lead.

anybody know if that diff cooler, or even the option is available on '13's or will be on '14's?

M5eater
07-02-12, 03:21 PM
anybody know if that diff cooler, or even the option is available on '13's or will be on '14's?
It's not, and it won't. The bottom line is GM doesn't feel we drive the car hard enough on a regular basis to warrant it. But they will sell you $800 channeled rotors...

quikag
07-02-12, 04:23 PM
M5Eater, you must have missed my post earlier about my buddy's wife who has a Panamera Turbo which blew a coolant line while tracking the car at around 50% at a local dealership track day. Luckily, her dealership was there hosting the event and had her car flatbedded to the dealership for repairs under warranty. My same buddy owns a 2010 E63 (yes, he's miffed his wife's car is faster than his) and he's tracked his car once and doesn't do it anymore. Want to know why? He got an engine oil temperature warning towards the end of a fairly hard 15 minute track session.

I guess you think the M5's, PT's, E63's of the world are bulletproof on the track right off the showroom floor. However, you would be wrong.

M5eater
07-02-12, 07:01 PM
M5Eater, you must have missed my post earlier about my buddy's wife who has a Panamera Turbo which blew a coolant line while tracking the car at around 50% at a local dealership track day. Luckily, her dealership was there hosting the event and had her car flatbedded to the dealership for repairs under warranty. My same buddy owns a 2010 E63 (yes, he's miffed his wife's car is faster than his) and he's tracked his car once and doesn't do it anymore. Want to know why? He got an engine oil temperature warning towards the end of a fairly hard 15 minute track session.

I guess you think the M5's, PT's, E63's of the world are bulletproof on the track right off the showroom floor. However, you would be wrong.
Tracking a car is going to break it. My problem is that this is such an obvious problem that GM's acknowledged but hasn't addressed because they thing we're all a bunch of old women who drive 5 under the limit.

M5eater
07-02-12, 07:02 PM
M5Eater, you must have missed my post earlier about my buddy's wife who has a Panamera Turbo which blew a coolant line while tracking the car at around 50% at a local dealership track day. Luckily, her dealership was there hosting the event and had her car flatbedded to the dealership for repairs under warranty. My same buddy owns a 2010 E63 (yes, he's miffed his wife's car is faster than his) and he's tracked his car once and doesn't do it anymore. Want to know why? He got an engine oil temperature warning towards the end of a fairly hard 15 minute track session.

I guess you think the M5's, PT's, E63's of the world are bulletproof on the track right off the showroom floor. However, you would be wrong.
Tracking a car is going to break it, that's not my problem. My problem is that this is a known, documented and addressed concern overseas and it's not even touched on here in N/A where the CTS-V sells most. They know about this, they fixed it, we're just not good enough to have it or even the option to buy it for some reason. That's what bothers me.

cadillaxe
07-02-12, 08:41 PM
It's not, and it won't. The bottom line is GM doesn't feel we drive the car hard enough on a regular basis to warrant it. But they will sell you $800 channeled rotors...

bummer.

Most-wanted
07-07-12, 12:54 AM
Public forum, my opinion. Dont like it, I dont care. My points are valid and are from personal on track experiences. Not you, nor anyone will tell me to leave a public forum. Your pathetic at best.... I didnt whine, I stated facts. I didnt buy it as an all out race car, I have others for that job. But that fact remains the CTSV cannot handle HPDE's in stock form. It needs a diff cooler plain and simple. I am scratching my head wondering why this simple fact bothers you so much. Oh well, think about this when you go to bed tonight:) " I dont care what you think about me... I dont think about you at all"... Night night...




Will do, Eric.

Most-Wanted, please go somewhere else. Your incessant whining is grating the nerves of everyone else. Buying a V and thinking it can do hard track sessions with zero mods is delusional at best and downright stupid and dangerous at worst. Heck, my ZR1 is marginal for very hard track sessions when the ambient temp is around 100F or above. I've gotten the coolant warning before under those conditions. Will I cry like a baby and sell it because my $100k+ Vette gave me a warning on the track. Nope because as a street car it will always have limitations.

Most-wanted
07-07-12, 12:58 AM
You're a joke. Have fun in whatever car you have next. My V will still rip up the road courses...

Blah blah blah... Thanks, I am. Its 8X the car the V was at 1/2 the cost:) And Im sure it does:) LOL.... Have a good night....

thebigjimsho
07-07-12, 03:58 PM
Again, I've done plenty of HPDEs, autocrosses, spirited driving and a few passes on the strip. Nothing broke, nothing stopped the car and it popped up the diff hot warning twice at the end of long runs.

Sorry for you. Hooray for me.

thebigjimsho
07-07-12, 04:02 PM
Tracking a car is going to break it. My problem is that this is such an obvious problem that GM's acknowledged but hasn't addressed because they thing we're all a bunch of old women who drive 5 under the limit.Tracking a car will test its durabiliry and will wear down parts quicker than normal. However, the V(in both '04 and '09 form) has been amazingly sturdy at the track. And most of my track days seem to be halfway across the country.

My '04 has been to Putnam Park, Grattan, VIR, Summit Point(Shenandoah), NHIS...

My '09 has been to Summit Point, Waterford Hills, VIR...

Some of these tracks for multiple dates. I've always driven home afterward with my track tires and stuffs inside...

Vwagon2012
07-08-12, 03:43 PM
My ctsv failed on the road course due to a diff cooling problem. So yes GM has misrepped the car in my opinion. It s a highly recognized problem yet GM wont address it. The car on the Nurburgring has a factory installed diff cooler which is not available state side. GM knows this is a huge problem and thats why the ZL1 with the same powertain has the exact diff cooler factory installed. So nothing is coming out of my ass. They promote it as a great track day car yet it can not go more than 10 minutes without flashing lights telling you to slow down. No my problem wasnt fliud level, etc. It was right where it should be. No problems though, I sold the car with only 3K miles. I dont have time to keep taking a car to the dealer for problems after a HPDE event. I love the CTSV. I think its an awesome daily driver. Looks amazing, sounds amazing, and everything else. But it is NOT a track car. Not even close.... Can you make it a track car, sure. You can make anything a track car with the right amount of money. Just my opinion. Ive had two CTSV's, loved them both. Getting rid of the last one was a very difficult decision. But I want to do track days and cant justify 4 new rotors and a service visit after every event. If you drive the car hard and on a fast pace the car fatigues. Its just too heavy and doesnt have enough cooling. Spend the 30k you save on the V and buy a track car!