: Ats configuration is up!



Ilovecars
06-14-12, 11:52 PM
http://www.cadillac.com/ats-luxury-sport-sedan/build-your-own.html?x-zipcode=12804

I wish now I knew the release date!

investor74
06-15-12, 12:02 AM
Now that I looked at the 360's of the ATS interiors, I realize that I will not be happy with any other car. Can't decide which one, each is gorgeous in its own way.

blkcaddy
06-15-12, 12:19 PM
Just did the "build your own" for the ats and two things I don't understand about American car companies!? First why did they take off the second tailpipe on the 2.5L ATS? It no longer looks asymmetrical. They could have left it even if it was just a dummy exhaust! Or go super cheap and remove both and hide it behind bumper like some cars do! Case in point the new 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5L comes standard with dual exhaust! Just so everyone knows the Altima is not a luxury car....but they put it anyways! GM if your listening do you see why all these foreign auto makers out sell you by far? Now do you get why your stocks are plummeting and the US government is losing money for bailing you out? You step over dollars to pick up quarters! I thought the ATS was "attention to every detail"? Think you guys forgot one!

blkcaddy
06-15-12, 12:32 PM
That won't be a "complete" deal breaker for me that the 2.5 won't come with dual exhaust for whatever stupid reason gm has! But if they don't offer every wheel option for the 2.5 Luxury it will be a "complete" deal breaker! I didn't see them offering the 18" wheels that we see in all the pictures for the 2.5 Luxury! Only those ugly 5 spoke 17" and the multi spoke 18"! Those don't look sporty at all! For 40,000 dollars.....GM you need to keep that dual exhaust and allow the customer to pick their wheel package! It should not matter on engine size!!!! Some people want a bigger motor and that's fine....but most of us don't "need" it! GM change your mentality before it's too late!

blkcaddy
06-15-12, 12:37 PM
I sold my second car in anticipation of getting the new ats! If I have to settle on your set options for a 40,000 dollars car I doubt I will be buying one now! May have to start looking at mercedes or BMW and I really didn't want too! The ats would of complimented my escalade so nicely too!!!!

JimmyH
06-15-12, 02:53 PM
Just did the "build your own" for the ats and two things I don't understand about American car companies!? First why did they take off the second tailpipe on the 2.5L ATS? It no longer looks asymmetrical. They could have left it even if it was just a dummy exhaust! Or go super cheap and remove both and hide it behind bumper like some cars do! Case in point the new 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5L comes standard with dual exhaust! Just so everyone knows the Altima is not a luxury car....but they put it anyways! GM if your listening do you see why all these foreign auto makers out sell you by far? Now do you get why your stocks are plummeting and the US government is losing money for bailing you out? You step over dollars to pick up quarters! I thought the ATS was "attention to every detail"? Think you guys forgot one!



single tailpipe, oh noes

http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/d/476958-1/2012-Mercedes-C250-Coupe-Rear-View.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID_DI_NOISSES_P MT

http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/assets_c/2010/08/2011-BMW-328i-rear-thumb-607x403-18109.jpg

JimmyH
06-15-12, 02:56 PM
If the foreign automakers are outselling GM, maybe it's because the foreign automakers don't have to pay people $35/hour to stand there and push a pedal. Or give them free medical coverage that makes my healthcare plan look like it's from Bolivia.

blkcaddy
06-15-12, 03:26 PM
Single tailpipe looks better to the side instead of middle of the car like it's a center piece! Why do you think BMW and Mercedes put it to the side! Because they thought about every detail! Hey I love the ATS.....BMW Mercedes and Lexus just do it better....right now! But it's those little things that will have buyers go else where! You will see!

TheCaptain
06-15-12, 03:29 PM
I'm not seeing the complete options on interior colour/trim choice. Or maybe its not up yet/ not available.

Damn wood... *shake fist*

It is good to see the Premium gets the 12" Reconfigurable Performance Display!

JimmyH
06-15-12, 03:29 PM
Single tailpipe looks better to the side instead of middle of the car like it's a center piece! Why do you think BMW and Mercedes put it to the side! Because they thought about every detail! Hey I love the ATS.....BMW Mercedes and Lexus just do it better....right now! But it's those little things that will have buyers go else where! You will see!

if you say so

EnvoyBu
06-15-12, 10:04 PM
I'm not seeing the complete options on interior colour/trim choice. Or maybe its not up yet/ not available.

Damn wood... *shake fist*

It is good to see the Premium gets the 12" Reconfigurable Performance Display!

No ATS model (except maybe the V) will get the 12" screen. All will come with standard gauges, and I think that's just stupid.

rand49er
06-15-12, 11:13 PM
Seems silly to have dual exhaust pipes for an I-4.

Makes much more sense when you have two banks of cylinders, e.g. V-6, V-8, etc.

2004ctsv
06-16-12, 09:38 AM
Seems silly to have dual exhaust pipes for an I-4.

Makes much more sense when you have two banks of cylinders, e.g. V-6, V-8, etc.

Gee, I wanted a fart pipe so I can be like those great Honda racers
Fake duals will make or break sales of the ATS versus the German cars

TheCaptain
06-16-12, 10:44 AM
No ATS model (except maybe the V) will get the 12" screen. All will come with standard gauges, and I think that's just stupid.

Then how come it comes up in the configurator in the premium trim? It's not 100% correct yet?

thebigjimsho
06-16-12, 11:09 AM
Single tailpipe looks better to the side instead of middle of the car like it's a center piece! Why do you think BMW and Mercedes put it to the side! Because they thought about every detail! Hey I love the ATS.....BMW Mercedes and Lexus just do it better....right now! But it's those little things that will have buyers go else where! You will see!

Look at who has their panties in a bunch now. What a worthless rant. And you already sold your car in anticipation?

I'm laughing so hard right now, I can't even stand it...

lulz

blkcaddy
06-16-12, 11:48 AM
Look at who has their panties in a bunch now. What a worthless rant. And you already sold your car in anticipation?

I'm laughing so hard right now, I can't even stand it...

lulz

Yeah they're the ones your wife left at my house! Oh and your CTS-V is quick! Could use a wash though!!!

Why did you stop laughing?

bmcleod
06-16-12, 02:43 PM
No ATS model (except maybe the V) will get the 12" screen. All will come with standard gauges, and I think that's just stupid.

I don't see any mention of the "instrument display", only the CUE & HU displays
UA3 Color Information Display (CID) w/8" Touch Screen INC INC
UV6 Head-Up Display INC INC

But the CUE app mentions the 12" reconfigurable screen being only on the XTS, too bad.

bmcleod
06-16-12, 02:56 PM
I don't see any mention of the "instrument display", only the CUE & HU displays
UA3 Color Information Display (CID) w/8" Touch Screen INC INC
UV6 Head-Up Display INC INC

But the CUE app mentions the 12" reconfigurable screen being only on the XTS, too bad.

Oops, took those copies from cars.com not Cadillac, don't see any mention on Caddy either.

rand49er
06-16-12, 03:08 PM
Yeah they're the ones your wife left at my house! Oh and your CTS-V is quick! Could use a wash though!!!

Why did you stop laughing?You have to admit ... your earlier statement wasn't going to earn you any pals around here not to mention it was completely void of originality.

JimmyH
06-16-12, 04:08 PM
Most dual exhausts aren't even true dual exhausts.

thebigjimsho
06-17-12, 01:25 AM
That won't be a "complete" deal breaker for me that the 2.5 won't come with dual exhaust for whatever stupid reason gm has! But if they don't offer every wheel option for the 2.5 Luxury it will be a "complete" deal breaker! I didn't see them offering the 18" wheels that we see in all the pictures for the 2.5 Luxury! Only those ugly 5 spoke 17" and the multi spoke 18"! Those don't look sporty at all! For 40,000 dollars.....GM you need to keep that dual exhaust and allow the customer to pick their wheel package! It should not matter on engine size!!!! Some people want a bigger motor and that's fine....but most of us don't "need" it! GM change your mentality before it's too late!

Why do you need sporty wheels? There is no use for them except to rob you of mpg...

What a poser...

blkcaddy
06-17-12, 02:20 AM
Aesthetics!!!! I just want the car to look good and perform good. Going from 17" to 18" wheels won't change the mpg over one inch. Bigjim you're use to looking at things that are only one inch so you know what i mean! Don't care about pointless 0-60 times. 200 hp is plenty and 70 hp will not make much difference on 0-60 times. Times may differ by 1 sec maybe 1.5. For you bigjim that extra 350 lbs you're carrying around I can see why you may need those extra ponies! I get it!

JimmyH
06-17-12, 03:18 PM
Larger wheels most certainly will lower your mpg. Bigger wheels have a higher moment of inertia which will require more energy to change the state of inertia. That means more energy is required to get them going and to slow them down. Will it lower your mpg significantly? Hard to say. I get about an extra mpg with my 18s compared to the 20s.

Ilovecars
06-17-12, 04:29 PM
I noticed on the configurator stated that the magnetic ride suspension and a limited slip are only available on the 2.0T and 3.6 RWD
models. I am disappointed about the MRC (I live in MI and want the AWD), but I hope that it will be available. Also, it may be a dumb question, but is there any point to having a limited slip with AWD?

JimmyH
06-17-12, 04:46 PM
I don't understand why they wouldn't have LSD with awd. If you are on a patch of ice without LSD you run the risk of losing control when one front and one rear wheel are spinning wildly.

thebigjimsho
06-17-12, 04:51 PM
I don't understand why they wouldn't have LSD with awd. If you are on a patch of ice without LSD you run the risk of losing control when one front and one rear wheel are spinning wildly.

Well, for that, I'd say Stabilitrak controlling power and brakes on icy conditions should be enough...

bmcleod
06-17-12, 06:27 PM
The LSD seemed to make sense to me in that I'd expect the differential(s) to be different with AWD. What made less sense were that premium cooling, magnetic ride control, & performance suspension are only available with RWD. That's taking a big hit to get AWD.

JimmyH
06-17-12, 07:44 PM
Judging by how many people in the cts forum don't much care for the firm ride I would suspect most people are not going to want the perf suspension.

bmcleod
06-17-12, 08:24 PM
Judging by how many people in the cts forum don't much care for the firm ride I would suspect most people are not going to want the perf suspension.

That's a good point, but between that and the mag ride control it seems like you're giving up a lot of road handling. I drive curvy foothill and mountain roads all the time and it seems like that's where those features would pay off. Maybe the AWD can make up for it.

JimmyH
06-17-12, 08:30 PM
Most of us who would want the perf suspension are not going to want awd. I know I would rather have rwd. I already made the mistake of a cts4. Did not like. Not even a little.

Ilovecars
06-17-12, 09:57 PM
I think limiting the available configurations is a mistake. People want different things (just read this forum). To say your after the 3 series throat and then only offer certain things on certain models is a mistake. Want a turbo 6 awd stick 3 series in sedan or coupe? No problem. Audi? No problem. Cadillac, stick with this, V6 with that, MRC with this, etc... Not good IMHO.

bmcleod
06-17-12, 10:29 PM
Most of us who would want the perf suspension are not going to want awd. I know I would rather have rwd. I already made the mistake of a cts4. Did not like. Not even a little.

Yeah, I've read the threads, I know most are interested in performance. The main reason I'm looking at a new car is for AWD, I don't want to put on chains, but would also like good mountain road handling. It would seem mag control and or perf suspension would be part of this formula, maybe I'm wrong.

JimmyH
06-18-12, 05:49 PM
If they get feedback, and the demand is there, they might offer it later on. Look at the CTS. They stopped offering a manual halfway through the 2nd gen, because people weren't buying them.

EnvoyBu
06-18-12, 11:55 PM
I drove the ATS yesterday. It's one nice ride!

TheCaptain
06-19-12, 11:40 PM
Well, for that, I'd say Stabilitrak controlling power and brakes on icy conditions should be enough...

Not a chance. Stabilitrack is good, but nothing beats a LSD. Especially paired with AWD and Cadillac's torque vectoring AWD! A lot of vehicles get sold with TC in place of a LSD (a la Camaro 3.6L Auto) and are a joke in the winter.

Garymonnecka
06-20-12, 01:08 AM
I think limiting the available configurations is a mistake. People want different things (just read this forum). To say your after the 3 series throat and then only offer certain things on certain models is a mistake. Want a turbo 6 awd stick 3 series in sedan or coupe? No problem. Audi? No problem. Cadillac, stick with this, V6 with that, MRC with this, etc... Not good IMHO.

Well considering you can't get a stick in anything but an a4/5 with all wheel drive..... Audi is limiting their stick offerings, and Mercedes barely has any cars available with a stick, let alone a stick+awd. Most automakers are taking away manuals paired with all wheel drive. Not a big deal. Besides, this forum is not a good representation of what the buying public actually wants. Most people are not enthusiasts.

concorso
06-20-12, 09:30 AM
Single tailpipe looks better to the side instead of middle of the car like it's a center piece! Why do you think BMW and Mercedes put it to the side! Because they thought about every detail! Hey I love the ATS.....BMW Mercedes and Lexus just do it better....right now! But it's those little things that will have buyers go else where! You will see!I thought your initial complaints were silly and childish. Now youre just getting ridiculous. A dual exhuast would add unneccessary weight on a car that GM spent millions making as light as possible. A single exhuast looks bad, imo, whether its to the side or a little more to the center like the ATS. At least the ATS is a little unique in its placement.

concorso
06-20-12, 09:34 AM
Larger wheels most certainly will lower your mpg. Bigger wheels have a higher moment of inertia which will require more energy to change the state of inertia. That means more energy is required to get them going and to slow them down. Will it lower your mpg significantly? Hard to say. I get about an extra mpg with my 18s compared to the 20s.But BMW and MERCEDES do it! Or at least I think they do! I havent checked, but I expect it to be that way because theyre german and this is a pooey cadiilac.

concorso
06-20-12, 09:37 AM
Yeah, I've read the threads, I know most are interested in performance. The main reason I'm looking at a new car is for AWD, I don't want to put on chains, but would also like good mountain road handling. It would seem mag control and or perf suspension would be part of this formula, maybe I'm wrong.Just keep letting Cadillac know this is what you want. They read this, most definitely.

concorso
06-20-12, 09:40 AM
Not a chance. Stabilitrack is good, but nothing beats a LSD. Especially paired with AWD and Cadillac's torque vectoring AWD! A lot of vehicles get sold with TC in place of a LSD (a la Camaro 3.6L Auto) and are a joke in the winter.I drove 4 Canadian winters with an 03 CTS with TC/Stabilitrak and an open diff with either Blizzaks. More difficult, yes, but a joke? Not at all. Driver mod is always important.

blkcaddy
06-20-12, 11:37 AM
I thought your initial complaints were silly and childish. Now youre just getting ridiculous. A dual exhuast would add unneccessary weight on a car that GM spent millions making as light as possible. A single exhuast looks bad, imo, whether its to the side or a little more to the center like the ATS. At least the ATS is a little unique in its placement.

Exactly! You read my mind. Cadillac (GM) spent millions to build a BMW 3 series competitor but skimps on the details! They could have kept the extra pipe coming out back! Might have added 5 lbs! Wow! Doesn't need to be run all the way from the engine! They could have kept it a single pipe and designed something like the CTS coupe. Oh well I understand the 2.5L is the water down version of the ats. It's expected from American car companies to skimp. The one they "expect" to be volume seller will be well over 40,000! I doubt for that price people will buy these over the BMW! Buyers will go with what's proven and established! I'm not saying it won't sell well but it won't steal many BMW, Mercedes or Lexus faithful.

Chuck C
06-20-12, 01:25 PM
I hope they equip the ATS with an 8-speed automatic in subsequent years.

bmw2caddy
06-20-12, 02:16 PM
Exactly! You read my mind. Cadillac (GM) spent millions to build a BMW 3 series competitor but skimps on the details! They could have kept the extra pipe coming out back! Might have added 5 lbs! Wow! Doesn't need to be run all the way from the engine! They could have kept it a single pipe and designed something like the CTS coupe. Oh well I understand the 2.5L is the water down version of the ats. It's expected from American car companies to skimp. The one they "expect" to be volume seller will be well over 40,000! I doubt for that price people will buy these over the BMW! Buyers will go with what's proven and established! I'm not saying it won't sell well but it won't steal many BMW, Mercedes or Lexus faithful.

I'm thinking about getting out of my 135 convertible and into the ATS instead of a 3 series. But I could be in the minority. Ive had 3 BMW cars and love driving them. But did get excited about the ATS when I heard about it.

HansK
06-20-12, 03:12 PM
Exactly! You read my mind. Cadillac (GM) spent millions to build a BMW 3 series competitor but skimps on the details! They could have kept the extra pipe coming out back! Might have added 5 lbs! Wow! Doesn't need to be run all the way from the engine! They could have kept it a single pipe and designed something like the CTS coupe. Oh well I understand the 2.5L is the water down version of the ats. It's expected from American car companies to skimp. The one they "expect" to be volume seller will be well over 40,000! I doubt for that price people will buy these over the BMW! Buyers will go with what's proven and established! I'm not saying it won't sell well but it won't steal many BMW, Mercedes or Lexus faithful.

So the same people that would consider a 328i would probably be the ones considering the 2.5 ATS. They both have a single exhaust. I think this all comes down to you wanting something that isn't important to most people. If you want your car to look faster than it is, go order a new bumper and a hacked off pipe. Maybe they'll throw in some neon underglow to help your car look really fast.

JimmyH
06-20-12, 04:41 PM
Not a chance. Stabilitrack is good, but nothing beats a LSD. Especially paired with AWD and Cadillac's torque vectoring AWD! A lot of vehicles get sold with TC in place of a LSD (a la Camaro 3.6L Auto) and are a joke in the winter.


I drove 4 Canadian winters with an 03 CTS with TC/Stabilitrak and an open diff with either Blizzaks. More difficult, yes, but a joke? Not at all. Driver mod is always important.

I did okay with my Camaro LT auto. You had to respect the gas pedal, but thanks to stabilitrak, I never got sideways. Even in one particularly bad ice storm. All I could do was idle in that. Any application of gas pedal resulted in slippage. But I never lost control. LSD would have been nice. Not sure why they held off the LSD. My only guess is so they could offer a spare tire. All the other Camaros have LSD. But I suppose the V6 auto is about 3/4 of Camaro sales.

I also did okay last winter with my SS. Same tires for both, the BFGoodrich Radial TA. I would say the LT and SS were about the same in the snow. I don't think I would want my wife driving it in the snow, but I did fine.

blkcaddy
06-20-12, 06:04 PM
They should maintain the style throughout the different trim levels! Cutting minor things here and there is called skimping! Leaving the dual exhaust looks better! Don't care about it looking fast!

blkcaddy
06-20-12, 06:08 PM
So the same people that would consider a 328i would probably be the ones considering the 2.5 ATS. They both have a single exhaust. I think this all comes down to you wanting something that isn't important to most people. If you want your car to look faster than it is, go order a new bumper and a hacked off pipe. Maybe they'll throw in some neon underglow to help your car look really fast.

You just don't know what looks good. Everyone has there own taste but if you think it looks better with one exhaust than two then I don't know what to tell you!

2004ctsv
06-20-12, 10:29 PM
They don't want dual exhaust. They want two tips ala G37 and 328i from one muffler. What a waste

rand49er
06-21-12, 09:06 AM
... It's expected from American car companies to skimp. ...This kind of statement shows a bias and completely undermines your credibility.

blkcaddy
06-21-12, 10:47 AM
I'm not biased! Its just the truth. I drive a Cadillac escalade.....and it has been excellent! The drivetrain on my escalade is excellent.....I love the SUV! But.....there is some exterior and interior things they skimped on no doubt! The German and Japanese go above and beyond on their engineering and design. It's a mentality that needs to used by American car companies. Or else those other car companies will continue to outsell! The Cadillac ATS is a rookie in this segment.....so it will take time to get the respect it deserves! It's got to be earned by it's customers! Rookie of the year would be a start!

HansK
06-21-12, 11:19 AM
You just don't know what looks good. Everyone has there own taste but if you think it looks better with one exhaust than two then I don't know what to tell you!

At what point did I say it looked good? Never...
I wouldn't buy the 2.5. Once again, you're asking for useless additions that only add to aesthetics. The people who buy slower versions of cars either don't care about its speed(and therefore if it looks fast) or they modify it to look fast. It's just a damn muffler tip, I can't imagine that being a deal breaker on a car. It's easily changed if it means that much to you, but it won't mean much to 90% of the buyers.

JimmyH
06-21-12, 01:18 PM
To anyone who doesn't like the ATS:

There is a very, very simple solution....

TheCaptain
06-21-12, 03:24 PM
I drove 4 Canadian winters with an 03 CTS with TC/Stabilitrak and an open diff with either Blizzaks. More difficult, yes, but a joke? Not at all. Driver mod is always important.
Unfortunately, most of the driving public are short on the driver mod!

thebigjimsho
06-21-12, 09:46 PM
They should maintain the style throughout the different trim levels! Cutting minor things here and there is called skimping! Leaving the dual exhaust looks better! Don't care about it looking fast!

It's not skimping. They have to have different bumpers and different exhaust configurations. It's Cadillac showing to the enthusiasts who buy the 2.0T and 3.6 that you are a cheap weasel and only care about getting an entry level car to say you have one.

Buy a 2.0T and zip it.

blkcaddy
06-22-12, 12:40 AM
Jimbo it's about time you and your CTS ride off into the sunset! Your comments are so predictable!

rustybear3
06-22-12, 06:45 AM
If the foreign automakers are outselling GM, maybe it's because the foreign automakers don't have to pay people $35/hour to stand there and push a pedal. Or give them free medical coverage that makes my healthcare plan look like it's from Bolivia.

Typical load of hogwash from someone who's probably way overpaid for what they do for a living as opposed to some hard working Americans who actually "make" something for a living. Free medical coverage is only available for the hot shot American managers and executives and CEO's who do little but push papers! American auto workers pay dearly for their Insurance, Pal! Foreign auto makers paid a little less to their workers than Union contracts; $25 average versus $28 for American workers. The big difference being they put their money into their cars rather than give their Management obscene bonuses, trips, company stock, and inflated salaries! Quite frankly, we be better off if Foreign investers would buy American auto companies; better cars, better treatment of employees and better value for the consumer...

JimmyH
06-22-12, 05:19 PM
whatever you say

McShibbs
06-22-12, 10:00 PM
This car is going to be impossible to resist once I'm finished with school. RWD 2.0T Performance or RWD 2.0T Premium for me please.

Silver preferably with the black interior. First mods will be wheels(for summer use/stockers will be winter wheels), tires, and window tint. :D

thebigjimsho
06-22-12, 11:59 PM
Jimbo it's about time you and your CTS ride off into the sunset! Your comments are so predictable!

Better to be predictable than hysterical or incoherent.

blkcaddy
06-23-12, 12:37 AM
Right on

Jesda
06-23-12, 01:08 AM
If the foreign automakers are outselling GM, maybe it's because the foreign automakers don't have to pay people $35/hour to stand there and push a pedal. Or give them free medical coverage that makes my healthcare plan look like it's from Bolivia.

German labor (labour? lol) is overbearingly expensive. It's part of why Opel is struggling.

2004ctsv
06-24-12, 10:07 AM
German labor (labour? lol) is overbearingly expensive. It's part of why Opel is struggling.

Is it also why Germany has such a high level of exports relative to their economy overall?
Quality workers for quality products are paid quality wages.

Wonder why ATS like everyone else is gunning for the 3 series?

thebigjimsho
06-24-12, 10:19 AM
Probably because they see BMW drifting away from the Ultimate Driving Machine personality. Now, the 3 series is still an excellent driver's car, minus the vague electric steering.

But if the ATS could trump that car in handling, it would be a monster feather in Cadillac's cap and could really eat into the Germans' and Japanese small sports sedan sales...

2004ctsv
06-24-12, 12:20 PM
Probably because they see BMW drifting away from the Ultimate Driving Machine personality. Now, the 3 series is still an excellent driver's car, minus the vague electric steering.

But if the ATS could trump that car in handling, it would be a monster feather in Cadillac's cap and could really eat into the Germans' and Japanese small sports sedan sales...

Jimbo - I agree. BMW has had design brainfarts like others. But the quality of the work force can't be denied. Although I am biased.
I'll wait for the 2.0T AWD to decide between that and a 3 series xDrive. Winter here in the burgh almost makes AWD a necessity.
For value, the target pricing has to be G37. Best bag for the buck in the small lux arena.

Jesda
06-24-12, 11:19 PM
Is it also why Germany has such a high level of exports relative to their economy overall?
Quality workers for quality products are paid quality wages.

Wonder why ATS like everyone else is gunning for the 3 series?

Consistency and focus in design and engineering, which BMW has somewhat lost.


Monetary compensation has less to do with productivity and output quality than popularly believed. Job importance and variety rank higher. Money has a rapidly diminishing effect on quality.

2004ctsv
06-25-12, 11:07 PM
Consistency and focus in design and engineering, which BMW has somewhat lost.

Monetary compensation has less to do with productivity and output quality than popularly believed. Job importance and variety rank higher. Money has a rapidly diminishing effect on quality.

Thats what we tell people when we don't want to pay them more.
In 40 years in management of engineering and research, I never had a person leave for more recognition but several have gone for more money. Hell, I've done it myself.

Renumeration is multidimensional as it should be. But money talks and bullshit walks.

JimmyH
06-25-12, 11:12 PM
More money might keep a good employee from going elsewhere. But more money will NEVER make an employee work harder or better. It will certainly not make a bad employee into a good one.

concorso
06-26-12, 11:30 AM
There are a large group of factors that keep employees efficient and content. It seems to change based on the industry and the company, as well. In my few short years tho, Ive found that an employees contentness and efficiency has alot to do with how management treats its employees, what the work enviroment is like, are monetary AND verbal rewards given for good work, is help and education offered for advancement, etc. As long as wages are competetive, money generally isnt the issue. Once pay is close, the rest of the issues seem to be more important. Again, only a few shorts years of experience.

Jesda
06-26-12, 12:41 PM
In the 80s and 90s, American assembly workers at Japanese transplants paid lower wages while employees reported higher satisfaction levels. Why?

1. The Japanese broke down the wall between management and labor. Assembly workers were encouraged to offer suggestions for improvement (which were taken under serious considerations), attend meetings with management on how to improve processes, and had the power to stop the line if significant defects were noticed. Job importance increased and so did output quality.

2. Assembly workers were moved from station to station routinely to familiarize the entire plant with the build process from beginning to end. [Job variety.]


By the way, many of these ideas were created by American management experts who, after being laughed off by US firms, took their ideas to post-war Japan. W.E. Deming, an American from Iowa, is a national hero over there.

Jesda
06-26-12, 12:43 PM
Thats what we tell people when we don't want to pay them more.
In 40 years in management of engineering and research, I never had a person leave for more recognition but several have gone for more money. Hell, I've done it myself.

Renumeration is multidimensional as it should be. But money talks and bullshit walks.

Job importance is not the same as title or recognition, which can often be shallow. It's a sense of value derived from depth of involvement.

2004ctsv
06-29-12, 10:26 AM
Job importance is not the same as title or recognition, which can often be shallow. It's a sense of value derived from depth of involvement.

How sweet

DG2
07-03-12, 10:10 PM
More money might keep a good employee from going elsewhere. But more money will NEVER make an employee work harder or better. It will certainly not make a bad employee into a good one.

Well...... Those Germans are the highest paid auto workers in the world. I think the money and the quality of the product are no coincidence. Nice to have both recognition and live
Of job but for most workers it's $$ that counts.

rand49er
07-03-12, 10:59 PM
.... I think the money and the quality of the product are no coincidence. ...I'm not sure Consumer Reports agrees with you on the German quality thing.

However, it's a fact that CR is really only a bunch of toaster experts after all. :D

DG2
07-04-12, 09:14 AM
I'm not sure Consumer Reports agrees with you on the German quality thing.

However, it's a fact that CR is really only a bunch of toaster experts after all. :D

Lol, I hear you about CR. they have an aweful record of American car reviews in my opinion

Pains me to say this but you got to admire those darn Germans. They are union workers and labor and management gets along beautifully. Also, the German people "buy German" ! A quality more Americans need to do - "buying American" most of the time. If we did that our economy would be booming like never before.

Jesda
07-04-12, 09:45 AM
Well...... Those Germans are the highest paid auto workers in the world. I think the money and the quality of the product are no coincidence.

Other automakers have long ago matched or exceeded their quality standards at a lower cost. The correlation you're observing was maybe true 20 or 30 years ago.

There's a reason why MB's quality took a nosedive in the mid 90s, and it wasn't because of the Daimler-Chrysler merger which came soon afterward. The Japanese encroached on their territory in the world's most profitable auto market (US+Canada) by producing higher quality luxury goods at a lower cost, undercutting the Germans and forcing them to find new competitive advantages.

Unfortunately, MB's first response to competition was to compromise on parts quality while increasing production speeds, resulting in cars (like the infamous W210) with poor build quality, poorly implemented technology, and high ownership costs.



Quality will always cost more, but it no longer costs what the Germans were charging. VW has supported its massive growth by building production facilities nearer its customers, like the new plant in Tennessee. Production costs have come down significantly, allowing VW to slash prices and gain market share. VW is currently the world's #1 automaker by global volume.

DG2
07-04-12, 11:13 AM
But German quality is still the benchmark. Look at how hard Cadillac is working to produce a car better then the BMW.

I am still shocked how big VW has become. They seem to be the only manufacture who had great success acquiring other brands. Opel aside it never worked well for GM or Ford.

2004ctsv
07-04-12, 01:57 PM
German cars are selling well all over the world.
What irritates me is the dumbing down of their cars to the US.
Their most sophisticated cars stay in the Fatherland.

Old fart alert. Just a quick story that you may want to skip.
In 1990, I was on a business trip to Bavaria and traveling south from Wolnzach to Munchen on the autobahn.
Tooling along at a sane 210 kph, as I rounded a bend I saw that traffic was at a stop and I was closing in fast.
I aimed for the grass and stood on the brakes in a panic stop. The brakes hammered back at my foot and the car came to a smooth stop.
I had heard of antilock brakes but didn't have them in my car at home.
The next year I bought a Buick Roadmaster station wagon and opted for antilock brakes.
Luxury option in US was standard on rental quality Opels.

Quality is giving the customer what he needs.

JimmyH
07-04-12, 03:26 PM
Cadillac is trying to beat German driving dynamics. Not quality. BMW doesn't seem to have class leading quality. They have class leading chassis dynamics.

DG2
07-04-12, 08:25 PM
Cadillac is trying to beat German driving dynamics. Not quality. BMW doesn't seem to have class leading quality. They have class leading chassis dynamics.

Driving dynamics, fit -finish, engine performance and overall feeling that you just purchased a "special car". Call it what you like I say it's quality and I think just about every auto enthusiast would agree, Germany makes a quality auto.

Now, that's not to say Cadillac does not. Thankfully the Cadillacs today and GM products are all world class and in many ways better then the Germans.

rand49er
07-06-12, 08:18 AM
Driving dynamics, fit -finish, engine performance and overall feeling that you just purchased a "special car". Call it what you like I say it's quality and I think just about every auto enthusiast would agree, Germany makes a quality auto.

Now, that's not to say Cadillac does not. Thankfully the Cadillacs today and GM products are all world class and in many ways better then the Germans.I agree with Jimmy. Quality and consistency are nearly synonymous, not necessarily features or design. The Germans lag in producing vehicles that spend comparatively less time in the shop or fewer trips there than other brands.

JimmyH
07-06-12, 11:34 AM
Hey I have owned cars from nearly all the major manufacturers. They have all spent more than their fair share of time getting fixed at the dealer.

I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as a reliable automobile.

ral1960
07-06-12, 08:14 PM
I make a distinction between a car that has broken accessories and one that leaves me stranded. I put up with having to hold a penny on the wiper switch on my 74 Fleetwood, but after timing chain breakage, water pump failure, and radiator explosion in one month, it was soon replaced.

Those surveys of number of defects/repairs in new cars rarely take into account the severity of the problem. THanks to the Japanese, they're all better than they used to be.

DG2
07-06-12, 08:48 PM
I make a distinction between a car that has broken accessories and one that leaves me stranded. I put up with having to hold a penny on the wiper switch on my 74 Fleetwood, but after timing chain breakage, water pump failure, and radiator explosion in one month, it was soon replaced.

Those surveys of number of defects/repairs in new cars rarely take into account the severity of the problem. THanks to the Japanese, they're all better than they used to be.

I think you mean "Thanks to the Americans for teaching the Japanese how to make quality cars in mass. ". The Japanese are copy cats as are the Chinese. Innovation has come from the USA and Germany by and large.

rustybear3
09-29-12, 09:44 AM
There are a large group of factors that keep employees efficient and content. It seems to change based on the industry and the company, as well. In my few short years tho, Ive found that an employees contentness and efficiency has alot to do with how management treats its employees, what the work enviroment is like, are monetary AND verbal rewards given for good work, is help and education offered for advancement, etc. As long as wages are competetive, money generally isnt the issue. Once pay is close, the rest of the issues seem to be more important. Again, only a few shorts years of experience.


Amen! You are point on!