: I don't understand why this car exists!



Playdrv4me
06-03-12, 06:08 AM
Hyundai and Kia have been on a roll of late. Kicking a$$ and taking names in nearly every conceivable market segment of importance for several years in a row now. Even as far back as 2000 I was impressed with the performance and overall quality of my Mom's 2000 Elantra GLS for what the car was. This was also the first year of the ten year powertrain warranty. Hyundai also treated us fairly well over the years, replacing a blown transmission for my Mom on the lackluster brand new Excel she purchased in 1993 just a few days or miles (can't remember which) outside of the defacto 3/36 limited warranty at the time. I must also commend my Mom on actually handling that situation aggressively enough to not let them weasel out of the repair.

Which is why it is unusual for me to generally question the company's decisions. However, I absolutely do NOT understand why they have chosen to renew the Azera's position in their lineup when they already have such fantastic models within the Sonata, Genesis and arguably, the Equus (though it has yet to prove itself in any meaningful way).

At one point at the end of the last Azera's lifecycle, I believe Hyundai sold a grand total of ZERO of them in the U.S. for an entire year, and just a few globally. I figured the nameplate would be retired and life would go on... Not so. Not only has Hyundai chosen to continue the Azera, they have substantially renewed it and thrown in a host of standard high tech features including navigation, HID headlights, a coolbox and various other toys. This would be all well and good, if the Genesis didn't already offer many of these features and more. A fully loaded Sonata by comparison, isn't much smaller, and ALSO checks off many of these boxes. As far as I'm concerned, either the Azera or the Genesis need to be discontinued. There just isn't enough room for so many jack of all trade vehicles in one market. If you want the Azera to compete head to head with the Avalon, then dump the Genesis. After all, the Equus now fills the top dog role with the V8.

Given all of that, Hyundai is like that one girl in a bunch whose intentions you can almost never read by body language alone. So, taken from a different light, if anything is to be gleamed by the revamp of the Azera, it is perhaps that Hyundai is not feeling the butterflies with the Equus. Discontinuing the Equus would in turn bring some balance to the line-up again. The problem with that assessment is that if Hyundai is known for anything, it's generally a stubborn refusal to give up on something once they've introduced it. On the Kia side of the building (and yes, Chad, I realize Kia is a separate entity :)), the Borrego was an exception to this, and the Equus might turn out to be as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iHTGCGLcZQ

Jesda
06-03-12, 08:12 AM
Yeah I dont get it. Its like a factory coachbuilt version of a standard car.

brandondeleo
06-03-12, 08:35 AM
I HATE Hyundai's styling. It's hideous.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-03-12, 09:53 AM
Hyundai's styling tries to be too much at one time. They need to clean it up a bit and go conservative.

thebigjimsho
06-03-12, 10:11 AM
No they don't. I like the Sonata. It's a sharp, well done family sedan. The Azera is a nice step up with some pretty swanky features. It's not of the sporty, serious pretense that the Genesis is.

The Azera may eat into some Genesis sales, but I think they're both excellent cars and both aim at different buyers.

Jesda
06-03-12, 02:43 PM
Kia's styling is sharp. Hyundais look like insectified Toyotas except the for Genesis, which looks pretty nice all around.

----------



The Azera may eat into some Genesis sales, but I think they're both excellent cars and both aim at different buyers.

So a car that sells 2 units will eat into a car that sells 3.

thebigjimsho
06-03-12, 02:52 PM
And you think pooping dogs look good.

Jesda
06-03-12, 02:58 PM
And you think pooping dogs look good.

If that's what it's down to, I'll take a dog over a cicada.

Stingroo
06-03-12, 03:26 PM
Boring, all of these.

glover
06-03-12, 03:37 PM
Hyundai can kiss my ass their powertrain warranty is a joke n they dont stand behind it

gary88
06-03-12, 03:45 PM
Pokemon import yuppie mobiles.

orconn
06-03-12, 05:57 PM
"Pokemon" or "Kraut" yuppie mobiles it's all the same to me! It's just a matter of how much you want to spend on your "upward mobility!"

Stingroo
06-03-12, 06:41 PM
^ Says the man who owns two Cadillacs.

Mmmmmmkay.

thebigjimsho
06-03-12, 06:42 PM
If that's what it's down to, I'll take a dog over a cicada.

You are a fool and a scholarless person.

orconn
06-03-12, 06:53 PM
^ Says the man who owns two Cadillacs.

Mmmmmmkay.

Never said I had any taste, or aspirations to move up in the world!

CadillacLuke24
06-03-12, 07:34 PM
CF at its finest.

Carry on.

Jesda
06-03-12, 08:00 PM
You are a fool and a scholarless person.

You smell like taxi cab.

Stingroo
06-03-12, 09:12 PM
You smell like taxi cab.

Curry is good, bro.

thebigjimsho
06-03-12, 10:50 PM
You smell like taxi cab.Not only is your retort of bad form, it is of bad taste. Folly is what you seek. Folly is what you will find.

Stingroo
06-03-12, 11:05 PM
Curry is good taste.


...I thought I just explained that?

thebigjimsho
06-03-12, 11:25 PM
Go eat it.

Stingroo
06-04-12, 12:25 AM
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g4/zoe_9/obamam-lol-y-u-mad-tho.jpg

thebigjimsho
06-04-12, 12:29 AM
Nice. Got the beast out?

vincentm
06-04-12, 03:50 AM
Pokemon import yuppie mobiles.

:yeah:

brandondeleo
06-04-12, 04:42 AM
"Pokemon" or "Kraut" yuppie mobiles it's all the same to me! It's just a matter of how much you want to spend on your "upward mobility!"
:lol: You went there.

Jesda
06-04-12, 06:22 AM
Not only is your retort of bad form, it is of bad taste. Folly is what you seek. Folly is what you will find.

This base, crude dialogue is beneath me and so is your automotive taste, Mr SHO!

brandondeleo
06-04-12, 09:55 AM
Fo sho man.

thebigjimsho
06-04-12, 11:45 AM
All of my cars have character and integrity.

Except for my Town Cars. They are whores.

hueterm
06-04-12, 12:22 PM
I think the Azera is perfectly positioned. If anything, they need to ditch the entry level/V6 Genesis.

~$25K = Sonata
~$35K = Azera
$45K+ = Genesis
$55K+ = Equus

BTW, I saw my second Equus here a few days ago -- WITH -- the import winged hood ornament. Wanted to get a pic, but couldn't... Boo.

Stingroo
06-04-12, 12:24 PM
I have yet to see an Equus, except for the one I sat in at the Jacksonville Auto Show.

I had more fun making the Hyundai guy mad by talking down the car than actually sitting in it.

It was just a car to me. No character. Nice, sure, but soulless.

brandondeleo
06-04-12, 12:35 PM
I've seen a couple of Equuses in Ellensburg. There's one that lives near the university. It's black and chromed out with a hood ornament. I do like them, they just don't see them lasting too long.

talismandave
06-04-12, 12:37 PM
I have yet to see an Equus, except for the one I sat in at the Jacksonville Auto Show.

I had more fun making the Hyundai guy mad by talking down the car than actually sitting in it.

It was just a car to me. No character. Nice, sure, but soulless.
Oh, you're that guy!:bigroll:
Actually I agree on the soulless thing, but...if you are spending money on a soulless new car anyway, it's good bang for buck!:yup:

Stingroo
06-04-12, 12:39 PM
Yep, I was that guy, because the booth dude was a dick.

:)

thebigjimsho
06-04-12, 12:55 PM
You think everyone is a dick.

Stingroo
06-04-12, 01:19 PM
Not so, good sir.

brandondeleo
06-04-12, 01:26 PM
Everyone's a dick when they're being a dick.

thebigjimsho
06-04-12, 03:18 PM
You'd like to think so...

Stingroo
06-04-12, 03:34 PM
'Tis true.

Jesda
06-04-12, 04:52 PM
In 2005 a presenter at the St Louis Auto Show at some point asked the audience [perhaps rhetorically], "A Charger with four doors is still a Charger, isn't it?"

I yelled "NO!" and walked away.

I stand by it. Poor lady...




Anyway, the only Equus I've seen in the flesh is the one Ian and I test drove at the Phoenix Auto Show. Very nice car! Even if it wasn't the great deal that it is, it would still be one heck of a luxury sedan. I thought the interior seemed a bit nicer in several areas than the LS460, but people say the LS is a little smoother and softer.

cadillac kevin
06-04-12, 05:05 PM
I've seen 3 equus in MO. 2 in STL and one in columbia.

Jesda, that bit about the charger reminds me of when my dad and myself went to the auto show in 04 or 05 when the magnum first came out. The person on stage was touting it as a full size wagon, to which my dad asked him "can it hold a 4x8 piece of plywood?" The guy said no, to which my dad replied "then its not a full size" and walked away.

talismandave
06-04-12, 05:23 PM
A co-worker has a new Sonata with black metallic paint and black and tan leather interior. Very nice looking car. I suppose I probably have seen an Equus or two. Madison is pretty big and has a very big dealership. I haven't noticed them, probably just thought they were BMW or Mercedes, or the like. Which...I guess is Hyundai's intent.

orconn
06-04-12, 05:57 PM
The one I saw could have been mistaken for several other cars .... if it hadn't been for the Scrooge McDuck hood ornament! Actually, the guy driving it kind of looked like old Scrooge too!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-05-12, 12:34 AM
I still think the Equus is the most appealing car in it's class. The S-Class is goofy looking, the 7 Series is ugly, the XJ is great looking but significantly more expensive than the Equus, the LS is bland and the A8 like the XJ is great looking but significantly more $$. I compared all the cars at the Minneapolis Auto Show in March and I thought by far the Equus had the best interior.

Jesda
06-05-12, 11:39 AM
The S-class has one "killer app" -- Distronic.

If I lived in LA or any other city with hellacious traffic, I'd get one [used obviously] so I could sit in gridlock traffic without using my feet.

brandondeleo
06-05-12, 11:25 PM
Hey, the Charger (even if it's not a pure-named Charger) is still a pretty cool car.

The fact that we have a 2009 R/T gives me no bias whatsoever.

Playdrv4me
06-05-12, 11:53 PM
I think that's Distronic Plus that allows the crawling speeds. Equus probably has distance cruise control otherwise, hell even the Grand Cherokee has it now.

orconn
06-06-12, 12:02 AM
It will be next week and the Focus will have it, the Foci already park themselves!

truckinman
06-06-12, 06:47 PM
I think the biggest thing the Equuses have going for them is the name on the trunk. Hyundai. I'm saying nothing bad about the brand one bit. Hyundai is really an amazing car company anymore. Nice styling. Reliable. Fairly up scale interiors in even their lower end cars. But when people buy a car like the Equus, they aren't entirely looking for those things I just mentioned. They are looking for prestige. They want to tell people they've bought a Mercedes or an audi or a BMW. They don't want to tell their golf buddies that they just bought a Hyundai. There is no prestige in ownership of a Korean car company which to the auto illiterate, has a reputation for making dirt cheap cars that are made out of tin foil. They don't want to have to tell people it's LIKE a Mercedes S class or it's LIKE a BMW 7-series. They want to be able to tell people it IS an s-class or a 7 series.

Some say that's why the VW Phaeton had such a short life was bc they gave it the VW name instead of making a whole new name such as Mercedes did with the Maybach. I mean here is a world class leader in automotive luxury and prestige, yet they still felt the Maybach was so great it deserved it's own brand so to speak. Now I'm sure that's probably not exactly what went down with Mercedes and Maybach. Probably much more science so To speak, in why they made a new brand out of it, but you get my point. I'm not saying ALL people who buy an S class or 7 Series do it just for the prestigious factor, but a lot do. .

ryannel2003
06-06-12, 06:59 PM
I actually think the Azera is perfectly positioned in Hyundai's line-up. It's the LaCrosse, Maxima, Taurus competitor without buying a full blown luxury car (Read: Genesis). I can safely say that I like all the current Hyndai's and a few years ago when people said they were going to be a force to reckon with quite frankly I didn't buy it. It's obvious that Hyundai/Kia really have their stuff together as far as building cars that people like. I can't tell you how many Sonatas, Elantras, Optimas, Soul's I see in this area of only 30k people. The only thing I can say I don't like about Hyundai's is they stick the crappiest plastic inside where most people wouldn't even look and it ages quickly. Door sills, door pockets, sides of console all have really cheap looking plastic that scratches easily and looks horrible after a few months of ownership.

Playdrv4me
06-06-12, 11:24 PM
I actually think the Azera is perfectly positioned in Hyundai's line-up. It's the LaCrosse, Maxima, Taurus competitor without buying a full blown luxury car (Read: Genesis). I can safely say that I like all the current Hyndai's and a few years ago when people said they were going to be a force to reckon with quite frankly I didn't buy it. It's obvious that Hyundai/Kia really have their stuff together as far as building cars that people like. I can't tell you how many Sonatas, Elantras, Optimas, Soul's I see in this area of only 30k people. The only thing I can say I don't like about Hyundai's is they stick the crappiest plastic inside where most people wouldn't even look and it ages quickly. Door sills, door pockets, sides of console all have really cheap looking plastic that scratches easily and looks horrible after a few months of ownership.

That's the problem. The Genesis is *not* a "full blown luxury car" anymore than the Avalon is with the same features and overall size. The only thing that raises public perception of the Genesis to being close to that level is the V8 engine option. Something that is also offered by the Equus. Hyundai is not at a point yet where it can offer so many vehicles that straddle the line so close to each other, it just creates confusion.

brandondeleo
06-06-12, 11:29 PM
Avalon <3

ryannel2003
06-06-12, 11:29 PM
The Genesis isn't a full blown luxury car but the XTS, ES350, etc is? Bullshit. I consider the Genesis a full blown luxury car because it offers up good looks, performance, interior design and comfort and as an overall car I think it's great. A few of the Genesis models I've driven had almost all the features of the 535i my mom drove but for $25k less. The Avalon doesn't offer V8 power or RWD but mainly it doesn't look good. The Genesis is a very simple, elegant luxury vehicle in my book much the way the Seville STS was for me. The only flaw in Hyundai's plan for world dominance is that they don't offer a separate luxury brand.

brandondeleo
06-06-12, 11:32 PM
The Genesis isn't a full blown luxury car but the XTS is?

Bullshit.
http://www.intarnet.us/graphics/cats/oh_snap2.jpg

Stingroo
06-06-12, 11:48 PM
Avalon <3

You don't have a soul.

Playdrv4me
06-06-12, 11:51 PM
The Genesis isn't a full blown luxury car but the XTS, ES350, etc is? Bullshit. I consider the Genesis a full blown luxury car because it offers up good looks, performance, interior design and comfort and as an overall car I think it's great. A few of the Genesis models I've driven had almost all the features of the 535i my mom drove but for $25k less. The Avalon doesn't offer V8 power or RWD but mainly it doesn't look good. The Genesis is a very simple, elegant luxury vehicle in my book much the way the Seville STS was for me. The only flaw in Hyundai's plan for world dominance is that they don't offer a separate luxury brand.

Those cars come from luxury brands, so the perception is already there regardless of the content. Hyundai is one manufacturer trying to straddle many different classes, from sub-compacts to S-Class level luxury sedans. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but then you don't need the Genesis AND the Equus. Or the Azera, which has many identical features to the Genesis, and the Genesis. One of these does not belong in the picture. My opinion is that of all of them, the Azera is the least necessary, since the Genesis is able to cover everything from the base Avalon range with its standard V6, to the near Equus range with the fully loaded 5.0L model. But to have them both is just silly. Especially when the Sonata is already so good and packs so much feature content. Leaving aside the fantastic Kia Optima altogether.

ryannel2003
06-07-12, 12:01 AM
The Hyundai line-up with the Azera and Genesis is very similar to what Lincoln was doing 10 years ago with the Continental and Town Car. Both offer very similar features at similar prices (in case of the Azera vs. base model V6 Genesis) but one is FWD and one is RWD. I also think Hyundai is overlapping simply because there are so few base model Genesis V6's being sold. When I worked at Hyundai we usually stocked the Genesis sedans with at least the technology package which bumps the car up to near $40k, while the Azera is fully loaded at $33k I believe. I'd rather have a top of the line Azera vs. a base model Genesis. Hyundai seems to be doing well with the new model at least, but then again you really can't go any lower than the previous generation though it was certainly a good car.

Stingroo
06-07-12, 12:04 AM
The Hyundai line-up with the Azera and Genesis is very similar to what Lincoln was doing 10 years ago


Does anybody really want to do anything that Lincoln is or was doing ever?

hueterm
06-07-12, 12:08 AM
Those cars come from luxury brands, so the perception is already there regardless of the content. Hyundai is one manufacturer trying to straddle many different classes, from sub-compacts to S-Class level luxury sedans. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but then you don't need the Genesis AND the Equus. Or the Azera, which has many identical features to the Genesis, and the Genesis. One of these does not belong in the picture. My opinion is that of all of them, the Azera is the least necessary, since the Genesis is able to cover everything from the base Avalon range with its standard V6, to the near Equus range with the fully loaded 5.0L model. But to have them both is just silly. Especially when the Sonata is already so good and packs so much feature content. Leaving aside the fantastic Kia Optima altogether.

Then why does Lexus have an ES (Azera), GS (Genesis), and LS (Equus)?

ryannel2003
06-07-12, 12:11 AM
At one point Lincoln was doing better than Cadillac (1st Gen Navigator>1st Gen Escalade, LS>Catera), but I was mention more of the line-up position than the actual focus of the brands. Lincoln is in deep trouble and I don't think Ford is going to keep them around for more than a decade if they can't find a hit.

hueterm
06-07-12, 12:19 AM
Those cars come from luxury brands, so the perception is already there regardless of the content. Hyundai is one manufacturer trying to straddle many different classes, from sub-compacts to S-Class level luxury sedans. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but then you don't need the Genesis AND the Equus. Or the Azera, which has many identical features to the Genesis, and the Genesis. One of these does not belong in the picture. My opinion is that of all of them, the Azera is the least necessary, since the Genesis is able to cover everything from the base Avalon range with its standard V6, to the near Equus range with the fully loaded 5.0L model. But to have them both is just silly. Especially when the Sonata is already so good and packs so much feature content. Leaving aside the fantastic Kia Optima altogether.

I wouldn't buy a Sonata, nor a base Genesis. I would look at an Azera, however -- if I were in the market for new low-mid 30s.

orconn
06-07-12, 12:35 AM
Hyundai isn't alone in the world in having a automobile line that ranges from low cost economy cars to luxury level and price models. Mercedes-Benz has been doing just this, reasonably successfully, around the world for well over sixty years! Mercedes range from the plebeian 140 diesel taxis that are ubiquitous in the third world to the mighty S series cars again found around the world. This full range of cars bears the Mercedes-Benz name and logo and outside the U.S. are sold at various price levels according to what the market will bear.

truckinman
06-07-12, 01:34 AM
It's all a matter of opinion on what a "luxury" car is. I mean to some one who's use to Cobalts and civics and ions, stepping into a chevy impala LTZ with heated leather and dual zone climate control could be considered a luxury car. But to someone use to a loaded Avalon limited, then it might take getting into a LS460 or something like that b4 they consider it luxury. As I said, it's really all a matter of opinion.

77CDV
06-07-12, 01:59 AM
Does anybody really want to do anything that Lincoln is or was doing ever?

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Lincoln-Conti-Mark-III.jpg

http://www.leftcoastclassics.com/1963-lincoln-continental-convertible/1963-lincoln-continental-convertible-008.jpg

http://watchandshare.com/lincolnpix/lincoln-div/slides/1938%20Lincoln%20K-Series%20V-12%20Touring%20Coupe%20by%20Judkins%20Black%20Frt% 20Qtr.jpg

http://www.cars-on-line.com/34800/48linc34873-1.jpg


Now hush. :)

talismandave
06-07-12, 02:07 AM
93096

Playdrv4me
06-07-12, 02:13 AM
Then why does Lexus have an ES (Azera), GS (Genesis), and LS (Equus)?

That's 3, and it means that in that lineup there would still be no Sonata. Thus it still proves my point.

We could also look at Toyota... which only has TWO models in those categories, the Camry and Avalon. Or Ford, who has Fusion and Taurus. Sure, both of those mainstreamers have luxury brands as well, but Hyundai is not a luxury brand... yet. Having so many vehicles under ONE single emblem only creates confusion. Worse yet, you have Kia which generally has a matching model to all the Hyundai models with the exception of the Equus. They'll have the K7 soon, which only muddies the waters even further.

If Hyundai generally thinks it is ready to compete with the Lexuses and Mercs of the world, that's fine. Create a separate brand to market the higher end cars in, and keep the mainline car lineups simplified *OR* split these duties between Hyundai and Kia rather than having so much duplication.

Consumer choice is a good thing, but there's also such a thing as an overwhelming number of choices. The previous Azera's lackluster sales (and loss of sales to the Genesis) bear this out. It's not like Hyundai is going to be able to keep ALL of these updated at identical intervals, so the Azera situation will just happen again with the next oldest model.

Stingroo
06-07-12, 02:20 AM
Perhaps Hyundai is making Hyundai the "luxury" marque, and Kia the common one?

Food for thought.

talismandave
06-07-12, 02:27 AM
I think they think Lux and sport.

Jesda
06-07-12, 02:45 AM
Hyundai is nipping at Acura and Infiniti with the Genesis Coupe.

thebigjimsho
06-07-12, 12:47 PM
Then why does Lexus have an ES (Azera), GS (Genesis), and LS (Equus)?

Exactly.

And when you sit in each, its obvious the mission statement. The Genesis is a sports sedan that gives you the space and features of the Germans and Japanese for less. The Azera makes no sports pretense. It's a big, comfortable luxury loaded sedan that people may spring for over a more pedestrian Sonata.

The materials, stereo, appearance, panache all were apparent when sitting inside.

It's very different than the Genesis.

thebigjimsho
06-07-12, 12:49 PM
That's 3, and it means that in that lineup there would still be no Sonata. Thus it still proves my point.

We could also look at Toyota... which only has TWO models in those categories, the Camry and Avalon. Or Ford, who has Fusion and Taurus. Sure, both of those mainstreamers have luxury brands as well, but Hyundai is not a luxury brand... yet. Having so many vehicles under ONE single emblem only creates confusion. Worse yet, you have Kia which generally has a matching model to all the Hyundai models with the exception of the Equus. They'll have the K7 soon, which only muddies the waters even further.

If Hyundai generally thinks it is ready to compete with the Lexuses and Mercs of the world, that's fine. Create a separate brand to market the higher end cars in, and keep the mainline car lineups simplified *OR* split these duties between Hyundai and Kia rather than having so much duplication.

Consumer choice is a good thing, but there's also such a thing as an overwhelming number of choices. The previous Azera's lackluster sales (and loss of sales to the Genesis) bear this out. It's not like Hyundai is going to be able to keep ALL of these updated at identical intervals, so the Azera situation will just happen again with the next oldest model.

You are assuming the buying public is not going to know the difference between a Sonata, Azera, and a Genesis. They will.

And Lexus' Sonata? That's the Camry.

orconn
06-07-12, 01:21 PM
http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Lincoln-Conti-Mark-III.jpg

http://www.leftcoastclassics.com/1963-lincoln-continental-convertible/1963-lincoln-continental-convertible-008.jpg

http://watchandshare.com/lincolnpix/lincoln-div/slides/1938%20Lincoln%20K-Series%20V-12%20Touring%20Coupe%20by%20Judkins%20Black%20Frt% 20Qtr.jpg

http://www.cars-on-line.com/34800/48linc34873-1.jpg


Now hush. :)

Let's not forget the Continental Mark II, one of the finest American post WWII cars! Not only looked great, but was built to the finest standards of its' day. Please send one my way!

93115

brandondeleo
06-07-12, 02:20 PM
Waitwaitwait... Equus? I thought we were talking about the XG350!

http://www.distrocars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/2006-Hyundai-XG350-Front-Side.jpg

M5eater
06-07-12, 04:40 PM
I don't see a problem with this assuming the azera is to hyundai what the avalon is to toyota. There *is* lexus afterall.

Playdrv4me
06-07-12, 06:53 PM
I don't see a problem with this assuming the azera is to hyundai what the avalon is to toyota. There *is* lexus afterall.

*sigh*... That is precisely my point. Hyundai doesn't *have* a "Lexus". If they did, the Genesis and Equus could live there, whilst the Sonata and Avalon remain in the primary Hyundai line-up. There is too many cars under one milquetoast brand aiming in too many different directions. It ultimately creates more confusion for the consumer, and in my opinion, less revenue for the company having to build and support so many different models.

You can not tell me that you couldn't convince an Azera buyer to purchase a base V6 Genesis instead and be just as satisfied, if not realistically more satisfied. Thus, just because the Azera might be different, doesn't mean it's *needed*. A little bit of "answering a question nobody asked", if you will.

drewsdeville
06-07-12, 07:34 PM
You can not tell me that you couldn't convince an Azera buyer to purchase a base V6 Genesis instead and be just as satisfied, if not realistically more satisfied. Thus, just because the Azera might be different, doesn't mean it's *needed*. A little bit of "answering a question nobody asked", if you will.

I was waiting for some sort of comment like this. Contrary to what many (some very closed minded) on this board feel, there is a need for BOTH fwd and rwd luxury cars. You personally may not be able to justify it, but that doesn't matter. Just like rwd fans, there are MANY who actually seek out and prefer FWD models over other configurations.

So no, you cannot necessarily convince an Azera customer to opt for the Genesis. Drive configuration is a large and very important difference that even Joe Schmoe can recognize. We shouldn't be talking about the difference between a few accessories and a badge.

Apples and oranges.

Why shouldn't the Azera fill this important role? Something needs to (no, the Sonata family sedan can't do it. THAT would create confusion). Else, like others have mentioned, Hyundai will no longer be competitive with the successful large FWD luxury sedans offered by most other brands. The Azera serves a large market that both the Sonata and Genesis aren't fit to fill. Hyundai would be foolish to kill it.

As far as your all-encompassing badging game, I think your problem here is you aren't thinking outside the box. It always has to be traditional and standardized for you - which is exactly what Kia/Hyundai doesn't want. Hyundai has done a great job of building it's name as a whole, and doesn't need a seperate premium name brand to sell their cars - the Hyundai name's reputation is obviously healthy enough that it just needs to offer a wide range of models to interest the customer. Other brands NEED that premium name to distinguish themselves from their mediocre parents (Toyota, Nissan, and Chevrolet, for example), but Hyundai can do it on it's own.

To me, this is LESS confusing. Want a Hyundai because you read good reviews about them and you like the brand's styling cues? Go to the Hyundai dealer and choose any type of car you like. Want FWD luxury? It's right there. Economy? Other side of the lot. Sports? On your left. Premium luxury? On your right. A Hyundai is a Hyundai, and they offer it all.

That also leads into the fact that the single strong name has the benefit of being self supporting. Premium brand names always develop a reputation for lower reliability and higher cost of ownership than their parents. And rightfully so - it's natural for a more complex machine to fail more often. However, the Equus, Genesis, and Azera will happily thrive under the Hyundai name's umbrella, untainted, even though the cost of ownership is probably comparable to their competitors.

As fast as Hyundai is exploding in all markets it's involved with, it's hard to criticize their marketing strategy. They're obviously doing something right.

hueterm
06-07-12, 07:46 PM
I can't believe I agree with Drew.... ;-/

truckinman
06-07-12, 08:19 PM
I was waiting for some sort of comment like this. Contrary to what many (some very closed minded) on this board feel, there is a need for BOTH fwd and rwd luxury cars. You personally may not be able to justify it, but that doesn't matter. Just like rwd fans, there are MANY who actually seek out and prefer FWD models over other configurations.

So no, you cannot necessarily convince an Azera customer to opt for the Genesis. Drive configuration is a large and very important difference that even Joe Schmoe can recognize. We shouldn't be talking about the difference between a few accessories and a badge.

Apples and oranges.

Why shouldn't the Azera fill this important role? Something needs to (no, the Sonata family sedan can't do it. The luxury car has to be it's own model, regardless of brand). Else, like others have mentioned, Hyundai will no longer be competitive with the successful large FWD luxury sedans offered by most other brands. The Azera serves a large market that both the Sonata and Genesis aren't fit to fill. Hyundai would be foolish to kill it.

As far as the all-encompassing badging game, I think your problem here is you aren't thinking outside the box. It always has to be traditional and standardized for you - which is exactly what Kia/Hyundai doesn't want. Hyundai has done a great job of building it's name as a whole, and doesn't need a seperate premium name brand to sell their cars - the Hyundai name's reputation is obviously healthy enough that it just needs to offer a wide range of models to interest the customer. Other brands NEED that premium name to distinguish themselves from their mediocre parents (Toyota, Nissan, and Chevrolet, for example).

As fast as Hyundai is exploding in all markets, it's hard to criticize their marketing techniques. They're obviously doing something right.

All very good points! Especially the front drive comment. I know for my step dad, that's all he will buy is front wheel drive. In fact that's the main reason he didn't buy a Lexus LS430 when he was looking a couple years ago. He went with a fully loaded Toyota Avalon limited with all the bells n whistles including AC seats and ACC. He could have bought another ES like he had b4, but he loved how much roomier the av was than a new ES. It's got pretty much the same if not more room than the LS but was front wheel drive. So he went with the Avalon.

My point, to go along with yours, is as different really as an Avalon is to an LS, the drive configuration was the determining factor

gary88
06-07-12, 09:38 PM
tl;dr

Smiling Jack
06-07-12, 10:25 PM
To paraphrase the character, Pasquenal, from Michner's "Centenial,"

We understand only what we want to understand. I, for instance, do not understand why this thread exists.

Smiling Jack
06-07-12, 10:30 PM
To paraphrase the character, Pasquenal, from Michner's "Centenial,"

We understand only what we want to understand. I, for instance, do not understand why this thread exists.

ryannel2003
06-07-12, 10:33 PM
Not to start a war but after owning a RWD car for almost 2 months I can't see myself ever buying another FWD car again, unless it was a Seville STS. That's the only exception, though I do understand if you live in snowy areas. But alas, I live in NC and it only snows 1/2 here maybe every couple of years .

Playdrv4me
06-07-12, 11:31 PM
I was waiting for some sort of comment like this.

You waited in vane. This discussion has not one damn thing to do with RWD vs. FWD, nor have I mentioned a single time that the drive wheels make a difference. This is particularly surprising, coming from someone who typically believes most consumers don't even *know* or *care* which wheels are driving their vehicle. The bottom line is feature content, space, and reliability. From that standpoint, an Azera buyer could easily be convinced to purchase a Genesis. Outside of enthusiasts, there are far less people who genuinely care what wheels drive the car.


To me, this is LESS confusing. Want a Hyundai because you read good reviews about them and you like the brand's styling cues? Go to the Hyundai dealer and choose any type of car you like. Want FWD luxury? It's right there. Economy? Other side of the lot. Sports? On your left. Premium luxury? On your right. A Hyundai is a Hyundai, and they offer it all.

Yeah, I don't buy this. If that were the case, luxury brands wouldn't exist at all, and we wouldn't be on this very forum discussing this topic. For better worse, consumers are used to a separation of brands. Be it for cachet that comes from a luxury marque, a perceived expectation of technology, or of a given level of service. The VW Phaeton, a car which I genuinely liked and always have, was a great example of making something that was in some ways BETTER than the competition (reliability aside, but that doesn't stop Audi buyers) that still didn't sell on marque and poor service alone.

Anyway, let's pivot this discussion for a moment... Frankly, for all of the Hyundai cheerleading going on here, what I'm hearing and what surprises me is that no one seems to believe Hyundai could actually pull off their own true luxury marque. Toyota, Nissan and Honda did it, so why not Hyundai? Mazda obviously screwed up their attempt before it ever got off the ground, fair enough. But Hyundai is a much more established player now. If the Genesis and the Equus and possibly one other model were moved, Hyundai would have a sufficient number of models to justify the new line and THEN the main line would be perfectly balanced with the Azera assuming the Avalon's position at Toyota. Genesis and Equus would assume the "GS" and "LS" positions at Hyundai's luxury brand.

For all I know this is probably what they're preparing us for.

Playdrv4me
06-07-12, 11:32 PM
To paraphrase the character, Pasquenal, from Michner's "Centenial,"

We understand only what we want to understand. I, for instance, do not understand why this thread exists.

Then go visit another forum?

ben.gators
06-07-12, 11:44 PM
There was a study demonstrating that 80% of BMW drivers think their car is FWD! And remember, those are BMW drivers, who drive a high performance car. I really don't think that being FWD or RWD is an important parameter for the people that are in the market to buy some boring car like Avalon, Azera, or Lexus, if we assume that they even know the difference between FWD and RWD car!

Playdrv4me
06-07-12, 11:49 PM
There was a study demonstrating that 80% of BMW drivers think their car is FWD! And remember, those are BMW drivers, who drive a high performance car. I really don't think that being FWD or RWD is an important parameter for the people that are in the market to buy some boring car like Avalon, Azera, or Lexus, if we assume that they even know the difference between FWD and RWD car!

My point precisely. I'm not sure why this thread was ever taken down that road to begin with. It's silly.

truckinman
06-07-12, 11:49 PM
There was a study demonstrating that 80% of BMW drivers think their car is FWD! And remember, those are BMW drivers, who drive a high performance car. I really don't think that being FWD or RWD is a deal barker for the people that are in market to buy some boring car like Avalon, Azera, or Lexus, if we assume that they even know the difference between FWD and RWD car!

If they didn't know their BMW was RWD, they probably weren't buying them bc they have a passion to drive....they probably just wanted to be able to say they bought a BMW.

gary88
06-07-12, 11:56 PM
There was a study demonstrating that 80% of BMW drivers think their car is FWD! And remember, those are BMW drivers, who drive a high performance car. I really don't think that being FWD or RWD is an important parameter for the people that are in the market to buy some boring car like Avalon, Azera, or Lexus, if we assume that they even know the difference between FWD and RWD car!

That was 80% of a group of 1-series owners.

ben.gators
06-08-12, 12:05 AM
If they didn't know their BMW was RWD, they probably weren't buying them bc they have a passion to drive....they probably just wanted to be able to say they bought a BMW.

Thank you! This is the main point. BMW drivers are assumed and supposed to be the people who are passionate about high performance motoring. But just about 20% of them are truly passionate about their cars, the remaining just wanted to buy a BMW or just wanted to say "I drive a BMW". Now think about (entry level) luxury cars. Who buy luxury cars and how many of them care or know about FWD vs RWD?

drewsdeville
06-08-12, 01:13 AM
Yeah, I don't buy this. If that were the case, luxury brands wouldn't exist at allr.

So, because low volume and mildly profitable "luxury" re-brands like Acura and Infinity merely exist, Hyundai's non-traditional approach is an automatic failure right? Those brands should be made an example of in the luxury scene (oh wait, they aren't, by anyone successful)! I can't believe that Hyundai won't mimic their winning formula!



Don't like the Asian based references? Talk to GM and Ford about their successful experiences in unnecessary rebranding.



Creating luxury rebrands to solve Hyundai's "confusion problems". All coming from a previous Navigator and Town Car (panther) owner. Surprise Surprise. Anyone else see any correlation here?




Why contest Hyundai's spectacular success? What are you trying to accomplish? Go buy yourself a Mercury Grand Marquis or Buick Park Ave and bask in your rebranded luxury "success" that Hyundai will never be.





Noob.

Stingroo
06-08-12, 01:20 AM
http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/public/9FY15iaIHvgVU1aPdUpqGk03p0OixetjuHyLO6frCEEapgX9Pz Y49vMHUm_r7ErGLShfmFAxxE2EJ3oR_j5fiL9iuWdfFxjB2LBs _NZi09I22s0LeCMeq8R8JUbGR1X4rZlgF0ituqsX

Dat Infinity.

Playdrv4me
06-08-12, 04:51 AM
I can't believe I agree with Drew.... ;-/

That is incredibly demoralizing.

Playdrv4me
06-08-12, 04:52 AM
duplicate

Jesda
06-08-12, 05:44 AM
Folks, did you forget that the global economy is circling the drain? Brands die, markets shrink. It happened during the depression. It's happening now. And it happens to ALL product categories, not just automobiles. Niche brands tend to disappear in favor of broader, value-oriented brands as the public transitions from fine goods to durable goods. Ultra-discount stores like Aldi are expanding to wealthy suburbs while high-end grocers contend with a dwindling customer base.

It's not some brilliant single-brand strategy by Hyundai. It's simply a product of the times. Launching a luxury brand or non-luxury sub-brand in this environment is expensive and risky. Even Scion has abandoned its funky image in favor of a more conventional identity. "Genesis" was intended to be a premium brand, thus the reason two very different cars bear the model name.

When prosperity returns, so will market segmentation -- Acura arrived in 1986 followed by Saturn, Lexus, and Infiniti in 1990. Mazda nearly launched a luxury brand before spreading itself too thin in the early 90s. Global sales volume at this point isn't large enough to justify additional auto brands, at least not in the US and EU.

That is all. There's nothing more to it.

As for Mercedes-Benz, they treat each market differently. In North America and most of Asia, MB is a highly regarded premium brand (thus the reason they bought Chrysler in 1998, to build cheaper high-volume cars). In other markets like Germany, MB has a wider spread of products.






http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/public/9FY15iaIHvgVU1aPdUpqGk03p0OixetjuHyLO6frCEEapgX9Pz Y49vMHUm_r7ErGLShfmFAxxE2EJ3oR_j5fiL9iuWdfFxjB2LBs _NZi09I22s0LeCMeq8R8JUbGR1X4rZlgF0ituqsX

Dat Infinity.

Awww yeahhhhh

Jesda
06-08-12, 05:53 AM
Don't like the Asian based references? Talk to GM and Ford about their successful experiences in unnecessary rebranding.


The Sloan model was BRILLIANT when GM owned 50% of the US market. But as GM failed to adjust its product mix for changing conditions, its overall share of North America declined, negating the need and purpose for several brands. GM didn't crowd itself out, its competent overseas competitors did.

People often talk about giants like Wal-Mart but often forget that KROGER is the SECOND LARGEST RETAILER in the United States, larger than Target, Home Depot, Costco, Lowes, Sears, Best Buy, or Walgreen's. You don't see CNBC specials on Kroger or protests against Kroger when they open up a new store in a small town because they carry more than two dozen grocery, convenience store, jewelry, and drug store brands in their portfolio. They stay under the radar.


Kroger's brand strategy is regional as well as hierarchical. You've shopped at Kroger even if you think you haven't.




And you are all a bunch of noobs.

RightTurn
06-08-12, 11:14 AM
p00p. :coffee:

gdwriter
06-08-12, 02:50 PM
People often talk about giants like Wal-Mart but often forget that KROGER is the SECOND LARGEST RETAILER in the United States, larger than Target, Home Depot, Costco, Lowes, Sears, Best Buy, or Walgreen's.

Kroger's brand strategy is regional as well as hierarchical. You've shopped at Kroger even if you think you haven't.No kidding (http://www.thekrogerco.com/). I understand margins are slim in the grocery business, but you gotta eat.

Stingroo
06-08-12, 03:14 PM
Wow. They own a lot.

RippyPartsDept
06-08-12, 05:05 PM
i've actually never shopped at a kroger ... really

RightTurn
06-08-12, 05:22 PM
Hmmmm...

RippyPartsDept
06-08-12, 05:58 PM
NO I WiLL NOT CHANGE MY AVATAR TO TBJS's AVATAR ... PLEASE STOP ASKING!

Jesda
06-08-12, 06:16 PM
Tbjs crew! :d

M5eater
06-08-12, 07:30 PM
what the Jim sho is going on here?

Stingroo
06-08-12, 07:37 PM
thebigroosho checking in.

brandondeleo
06-08-12, 07:49 PM
Kroger owns Fred Meyer, if I'm not mistaken, and that's the most prominent store in this region, even more common than Wal Mart. It's like a smaller and more expensive Wal Mart. Generally a little bit nicer quality, though. Growing up in LA, all I ever saw was Fred Meyer Jewelers, so when I came up here and saw the Fred Meyer superstore thing I'm like IT HAS A STORE? :lol:

Stingroo
06-08-12, 07:56 PM
Tbjs crew! :d

Fo lyfe, yo!

CadillacLuke24
06-08-12, 08:10 PM
What happun to TBJS?

Playdrv4me
06-08-12, 09:12 PM
Kroger owns Fred Meyer, if I'm not mistaken, and that's the most prominent store in this region, even more common than Wal Mart. It's like a smaller and more expensive Wal Mart. Generally a little bit nicer quality, though. Growing up in LA, all I ever saw was Fred Meyer Jewelers, so when I came up here and saw the Fred Meyer superstore thing I'm like IT HAS A STORE? :lol:

We have Dillon's... which is owned by Kroger... which has a Fred Meyer Jewelers in it.

It really is pretty awesome how as people started to shop at Kroger branded stores less and less, Kroger was like "EFF U" and just bought up all the competitive stores the customers went to.

orconn
06-08-12, 09:34 PM
We have a local giant Kroger store that has just been renovated and greatly expanded. When I first moved to Virginia in the mid nineties the supermarkets were really sad compared to the ones in California. Not only were they smaller, but they were dirty, smelled, had third quality produce and meat and generally were only shop-able because there was no alternative. It was because of this situation that I became a confirmed Costco shopper; the quality of the food at Costco was so far superior to that offered by "Giant" "Food Lion" or even "Safeway" in Virginia that I was willing to put up with the waste that came about because of the quantities you had to buy.

Today the super market situation has improved significantly (although for produce and meat, not to mention canned goods and personal products Costco still is way preferable. Kroger has out competed what was a leading family owned super market chain here in Central Virginia and has pretty much taken over the higher end market here. A far cry from when my family used to shop at Kroger in Cambridge, Ohio in the 1960"s!

Jesda
06-08-12, 10:09 PM
St Louis is one market Kroger hasn't returned to after leaving in the late 80s. They had a brand of stores in Illinois that they sold to St Louis-based Schnucks in the 90s(?). Aldi, Wal-Mart, and Trader Joe's are the only global/national grocers that have any presence here.

OReilly Auto Parts started in Springfield MO in 1957 but didn't make it down the highway to St Louis until 5-6 years ago. They opened stores in every market surrounding STL.

When Panera bought St Louis Bread Company, they retained the STL Breadco name just for this area. When I go out of town, I still refer to Panera as Breadco. The highway near my apartment has been an interstate for a quarter century but people still refer to it as US 40. Some of the signage still says US40 without displaying I-64. And no matter who plasters their brand on local sports and concert venues, people only refer to them by their original names.

Retail in this town is fickle. People strongly favor local brands and like it to stay that way. I guess in that regard, St Louisans are like Oldsmobile customers. Most Olds loyalists ditched GM when they phased out the brand. A W-body by any other name (Regal) wouldn't do.

RightTurn
06-08-12, 10:50 PM
What happun to TBJS?

He abandoned me and the kids. :alchi: Bastard.

thebigjimsho
06-09-12, 03:38 AM
wut.

CadillacLuke24
06-09-12, 04:33 AM
CF as usual.

Carry on. :D

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-09-12, 08:37 AM
I don't think we have any Kroger stores up here, but I may be wrong.

brandondeleo
06-09-12, 08:42 AM
Kroger owns:

Baker's (Nebraska)
City Market (Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico)
Dillons (Kansas, Missouri)
Dillons Marketplace
Food 4 Less (Southern California; Las Vegas, Nevada; Portland, Oregon; Chicago, Illinois; NW Indiana, and they have a former location in Allentown, Pennsylvania and Tahlequah, Oklahoma)
Foods Co. (Northern California)
Fred Meyer (Alaska, Idaho, Oregon, Washington)
Fred Meyer Marketplace
Fred Meyer Northwest Best
Fred Meyer Jewelers (Illinois, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Utah, Washington, Nebraska, Oregon, Colorado, Texas, Idaho, Arizona)
Barclay Jewelers
Fox's Jewelers
Littman Jewelers
Fry's Food and Drug (Arizona)
Fry's Marketplace
Fry's Mercado
Fry's Signature
Gerbes (Missouri)
JayC Food Stores (Indiana)
King Soopers (Colorado, Wyoming)
King Soopers Fresh Fare
King Soopers Marketplace
Kroger Food and Drug (Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Texas, Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana)
Kroger Fresh Fare
Kroger Marketplace
Kroger Signature
Kwik Shop (Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska)
Loaf 'N Jug (Colorado, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Wyoming)
Owen's Market (Indiana)
Pay Less Food Markets (Indiana)
Quality Food Centers (Oregon, Washington)
QFC Fresh Fare
Quik Stop (California, Nevada)
Ralphs (California)
Ralphs Fresh Fare
Ralphs Marketplace
Scott's Food & Pharmacy (Indiana)
Smith's Express (Utah)
Smith's Food and Drug (Arizona, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming)
Smith's Fresh Fare
Smith's Marketplace
Tom Thumb Food Stores (Alabama, Florida)
Turkey Hill Minit Markets (Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana)

talismandave
06-09-12, 08:49 AM
I wonder what Wis. did ti piss them off. I don't recognize any of those names from around here.

brandondeleo
06-09-12, 08:54 AM
Hyundai -> grocery stores.

CF.

thebigjimsho
06-09-12, 09:34 AM
Kroger can keep their dirty mitts out of New England.

Although, I do like Turkey Hill. I have this one in PA I usually hit after track days at Summit Point or when I'm on I-81...

drewsdeville
06-09-12, 01:30 PM
I wonder what Wis. did ti piss them off. I don't recognize any of those names from around here.

Roundys happened. They've driven everyone but the strongest away and manage to force most newcomers out within 5-10 years.

CadillacLuke24
06-09-12, 04:08 PM
Kroger is awesome. They give 1, and now 2 dollar discounts on gas when u buy groceries. I've never seen a City Market or King Soopers here, but Smith's is in Gillette.

talismandave
06-09-12, 09:34 PM
Roundys happened. They've driven everyone but the strongest away and manage to force most newcomers out within 5-10 years.
Yeah our Copps stores (Roundys) also has fuel rewards. I get about 20-30 cents per gallon off at each fill, but I only fill about once a month.

Stingroo
06-09-12, 09:47 PM
Winn Dixie does something similar to that. You get 5c off per gallon for every $50 you spend, or something like that.

talismandave
06-09-12, 11:50 PM
I think that's what my deal is too. I just drive so little I build up a lot.
Once I get the 74 on the road that will change.
I will have to be careful though, 20 gallon limit...26 gallon tank!:bonkers:

gdwriter
06-10-12, 03:04 AM
I have a Safeway Club card to save .03 off a gallon of gas, but I buy most of my groceries at Trader Joe's or Target. For fresh produce and meat, I buy from Roth's (http://roths.com/), a small, local chain. Jesda and Ian can vouch for the quality of their steaks.

talismandave
06-10-12, 09:41 AM
I am with Orconn on the Costco quality. If you get their American Express card you get 3% off gas purchases. The prices are not the cheapest, but whatever you buy is always good quality.

exterminate
06-11-12, 09:12 PM
Purchasing a vehicle is very subjective for most people. They do it based on feel rather than logic. Also, aesthetics is always subjective.