: '12 LSA making some power



quikag
05-13-12, 11:58 AM
I'm reading more and more how the '12 LSA is putting down some power. I think some of the changes made for the ZL1 trickled over to the V unpublished.

Good article:

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/ghtp_1204_6_2_liter_lsa_engine_zl1_in_sheeps_cloth ing/viewall.html

baabootoo
05-13-12, 09:16 PM
Wow, very interesting. It's also in Opulent Blue, which I want to trade my 2009 sedan in for.

TriTexan
05-13-12, 11:21 PM
I have a brand new 2012 auto wagon - wouldn't mind putting it on the dyno to see if this was a one-off factory special or if the 2012's really ARE putting more power to the wheels. Anyone here in the Houston area want to offer up their dyno for a quick test?

bbang
05-13-12, 11:47 PM
I had heard that the 2012 V's had 580 hp.I cannot remember were I heard it. I remember them saying that cadillac was keeping it under wraps and 2012 owners were the testing arena....They wanted it to contend with the new M5.. A friend drove my 2012 auto- vagon and he said WOW!!. He has an 09 coupe manual. very interesting to say the least. Anybody have dyno numbers on a stock 2012 ??? let us know.

TriTexan
05-13-12, 11:58 PM
I had heard that the 2012 V's had 580 hp.I cannot remember were I heard it. I remember them saying that cadillac was keeping it under wraps and 2012 owners were the testing arena....They wanted it to contend with the new M5.. A friend drove my 2012 auto- vagon and he said WOW!!. He has an 09 coupe manual. very interesting to say the least. Anybody have dyno numbers on a stock 2012 ??? let us know.

bbang - if you've got a 2012 wagon as well, maybe we can get both of ours on a dyno soon and post the results. I would say if BOTH of our cars test out as well as the one that started this thread, then maybe we are onto something. If I can find someone to dyno mine here in Houston I'll do it and share the data, but I don't know if it's worth me shelling out cash just to find out - I'll do that when it's time for my first round of mods in a few months. But I sure would like to know now.

I thought the ZL1 was getting it's extra power from an updated intake and a few other bits - it looks like our 2012's are identical to previous years, so where's the extra power coming from?

SoCalCTSV
05-14-12, 12:22 AM
It's a mystery!

TriTexan
05-14-12, 12:36 AM
...and I thought several places have already dyno'd a 2012 CTS-V. I saw a wagon tested that was by Insideline that did 492hp and 502 tq at the wheels (manual). Still, that would indicate that the engine is making more than 556 hp. If you use the standard 15% powertrain loss (which of course is an estimate) then 492 at the wheels comes out to 578 at the crank - pretty close to the claimed 580 of the ZL1.

I guess I have to get mine checked out - would love to know what kind of baseline I am working from.

thebigjimsho
05-14-12, 01:37 AM
I had heard that the 2012 V's had 580 hp.I cannot remember were I heard it. I remember them saying that cadillac was keeping it under wraps and 2012 owners were the testing arena....They wanted it to contend with the new M5.. A friend drove my 2012 auto- vagon and he said WOW!!. He has an 09 coupe manual. very interesting to say the least. Anybody have dyno numbers on a stock 2012 ??? let us know.

There is no '09 coupe...

Macvicar24
05-14-12, 01:54 AM
It mainly comes from the ZL1 having electric assisted steering. No power steering pump to rob the power.

Junkie414
05-14-12, 02:03 AM
My blue 2012 feels slower stock then my 09 did. Haven't put it on a dyno yet, I highly doubt I will until its pretty heavily modded.

GM-4-LIFE
05-14-12, 02:40 AM
I have an '11 V Coupe with auto trans (built 2/11) and mine put down 470 RWHP (Dynojet) bone stock with 400 miles on the engine. I am sure it puts down way more with the W4M full cold air intake, Borla catback exhaust and W4M tune now that I have over 14K miles. GM has always under-rated their vehicles.

Rock1
05-14-12, 09:07 AM
My 11 A6 sedan put down 490.88/475.45 bone stock.

GM-4-LIFE
05-14-12, 12:03 PM
My 11 A6 sedan put down 490.88/475.45 bone stock.

How many miles were on the engine when you had it dyno tested? Was it on a Dynojet?

Xaqtly
05-14-12, 01:12 PM
How many miles were on the engine when you had it dyno tested? Was it on a Dynojet?

Yeah that's what I was wondering too. The type of dyno makes a HUGE difference since some read much, much higher than others. 490 on a dynojet could easily be 450 on a mustang dyno.

B T Williams
05-14-12, 03:16 PM
Not all brands of dynos, and even the same brand of dynos, report similar horsepower and torque ratings. For the same car, some dynos report higher numbers than others and vice versa.

The April GM High Tech Magazine Dynojet 224X test of a 2012 CTS-V waggon reported rear wheel power output of 525 HP / 521 Lb Ft Tq, very high numbers for advertised crank power output of 556 HP / 551 Lb Ft Tq.

The May GM High Tech Magazine Dynojet 224X test of a 2012 Corvette LS3 Grand Sport reported rear wheel power output of 415 HP / 409 Lb Ft Tq, also very high numbers for advertised crank power output of 436 HP / 428 Lb Ft Tq.

Therefore, the high rear wheel power output reported by the April GM High Tech Magazine Dynojet 224X test for the 2012 CTS-V waggon does not, in and of themselves, provide sufficient evidence of an increase in power output for 2012 CTS-V LSA engines.

Regarding the higher 580 HP / 556 Lb Ft Tq crank power output of 2012 Camaro ZL1 LSA engines, the May GM High Tech Magazine article on that car describes a number of power enhancing differences not found in CTS-V LSA engines.

In light of the power output war now being waged by BMW with their 2012 M5 and Mercedes with their 2012 E63 AMG, it is highly unlikely that Cadillac would choose to remain silent about any power output increase for their 2012 CTS-V.

Xaqtly
05-14-12, 04:04 PM
Yeah, we need some comparative testing. So GM High Tech needs to get a '12 Vagon, an '11 Vagon, and a ZL1 on on the same dyno on the same day, back to back, to see what's up.

GM-4-LIFE
05-14-12, 05:55 PM
Yes, that would help, but it looks like the '11 and '12 numbers seem to be consistently higher than older Vs.

jessrayo
05-14-12, 08:07 PM
The April GM High Tech Magazine Dynojet 224X test of a 2012 CTS-V waggon reported rear wheel power output of 525 HP / 521 Lb Ft Tq, very high numbers for advertised crank power output of 556 HP / 551 Lb Ft Tq.

Therefore, the high rear wheel power output reported by the April GM High Tech Magazine Dynojet 224X test for the 2012 CTS-V waggon does not, in and of themselves, provide sufficient evidence of an increase in power output for 2012 CTS-V LSA engines.



The point that the shop owner made about this car being a "freak" was because he dynos every single car he modifies and saves the records for before and after results. If my memory is correct, ADM had a history of about 50 LSA motors all run on that dyno and none of them had been close to this one stock. My 2011 dynoed at 500 RWHP stock and he said it was very strong. The numbers he is using for comparison in that article are based on the averages run on the exact same dyno. Unless the dyno has somehow got out of calibration over the years and is now "optimistic" his analysis is legitimate. The newer cars are making more power.

As far as I know the Nissan GT-R is the only car to change the power rating every year the car is produced. I just don't think Cadillac feels it has made enough changes to the engine package to justify giving out a different power number. I sometime wonder if anyone even knows for sure why some of the newer cars are stronger, maybe the tolerances are tighter in the blower, who knows....

quikag
05-14-12, 10:28 PM
How many V's does Caddy sell each year? IF there was a change to the power output due to the tighter tolerances/sealing on the blower or whatever tweaks GM has made to the LSA that added some horsepower it may not be important enough for GM to SAE recertify the engine and pay the money that entails. That is my guess if the newer LSA's are a little stronger.

baabootoo
05-15-12, 12:24 AM
We can also use the real world dyno; 1/4 mile trap speeds. Like was said, too many variables on too many dynos. If STOCK 2012 Wagons can consistently get 120+ trap speed, then I'll listen.

M5eater
05-16-12, 02:05 PM
Yes, that would help, but it looks like the '11 and '12 numbers seem to be consistently higher than older Vs.
my 2011's 422whp disagrees. As mentioned previously, there's simply not enough evidence to support any conclusions that 12s come juiced up.

There are more changes than a blower revision to the ZL1, the intake and exhaust systems flow much more freely, those two parts alone likely cover most of the gains. I simply don't understand how people can attribuite a < 24hp change in a similar (but not identical) engine as proof that their own 12 MY vehicle is more powerful when there's clear data that 09-11 dynos flucuate 100HP between themselves ! Some intake companies claim higher gains that what we're talking about here and it's generally known that most of those are utter BS.

Even a back-to back comparison on the same day/dyno isn't enough IMO. You need a 10+ unit sample size between the MY vehicles, and they all need to be in roughly the same condition mileage and mantiance wise. Anything less will skew results when we're talking about such small differences like this.

as also mentioned, i can not fathom in light of the HP wars that GM would miss an opportunity to flaunt that their now 5 year old car still has a few tricks up their sleeve. Espically in light of the GT500 pimp-slapping the ZL1.


How many V's does Caddy sell each year? IF there was a change to the power output due to the tighter tolerances/sealing on the blower or whatever tweaks GM has made to the LSA that added some horsepower it may not be important enough for GM to SAE recertify the engine and pay the money that entails. That is my guess if the newer LSA's are a little stronger.

they sell more LSA's than BMW, Mercedes and Audi sell RS, M or C63 cars combined, and they do 95% of that in North America Alone. let me put it to you this way. How many Vagons has GM sold? 500? 800?

In a recent Car and Driver comparison with the E63 wagon, they were quoted as complaining that they had to wait so long to do the comparison because there had been until that time, no E63 Wagons in N/A. The one they reviews was the first one imported.

GM-4-LIFE
05-16-12, 03:01 PM
There are more than just a handful of factory freaks out there. My 2011 V was WAY more powerful than my 2010 V and my 2009 V. At least 40 RWHP more on my V Coupe over my two V Sedans and all cars were tested on the same dyno and in the exact same conditions.

quikag
05-16-12, 03:56 PM
If the numbers are SAE certified, I'm starting to wonder how much of this variation is attributable to the computer pulling timing and making other adjustments for different conditions? I know the car will protect itself and the car backing power down due to higher IAT's or some other condition seems more plausible than having such a wide variation in power output between stock LSA engines that are all supposed to be an SAE rated 556hp.

I have a healthy stock '10 ZR1 and I still think my '12 CTS-V pulls very hard, so even though I haven't dynoed (and may not dyno) the V, it seems sufficiently powered for my daily commute. :D

peso611
05-16-12, 04:27 PM
I have a stock 12 Wagon in the DFW area if anyone wants to offer a Dyno to compare numbers.

Rock1
05-16-12, 08:09 PM
How many miles were on the engine when you had it dyno tested? Was it on a Dynojet?

10k on her when I dyno'd it and yes it was a dynojet

GM-4-LIFE
05-16-12, 08:13 PM
SAE or STD corrected? I forgot to ask this as well.

Rock1
05-16-12, 08:17 PM
STD also there was a Coupe there that had 11k on the odo he put down 446 at the wheels.

GM-4-LIFE
05-16-12, 08:31 PM
Do you know what your SAE numbers are? STD numbers show much higher than SAE numbers. SAE numbers would show a real indication of what your car is putting down in numbers that are better understood by all of us. SAE corrected, my 2011 A6 V Coupe put down almost 461 RWHP and 462 RWTQ. STD would show much higher numbers. Go by SAE corrected numbers, NOT STD numbers.

Here is my dyno sheet showing my bone stock numbers with 400 miles on the engine in SAE correction:

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg388/DRVTWIN/2011CTS-VSTOCK.jpg

TriTexan
05-16-12, 11:19 PM
some other condition seems more plausible than having such a wide variation in power output between stock LSA engines that are all supposed to be an SAE rated 556hp.

That's a very interesting point actually. What I mean by that is that we're having all this discussion about standardizing and normalizing the test conditions to get accurate comparisons. But the fact that we have such wide variations might mean that in the real world that's what we get - in some conditions we get way LESS power, in some we get MORE. In many respects, I don't care what power my engine puts out under a specified lab test if I will never see those conditions in driving where I live. In Houston we have 100-120 days per year where the high temp is well over 100 degrees. Due to computer decisions, am I going to lose 100hp because I live in a hot climate? Are other engines putting out MORE power in real driving because they can better handle the environmental variations?