: From Production to Delivery



Crusin
05-12-12, 11:06 PM
As I eagerly await the ATS, I am curious about things like ...

1. When is production expected to start (or has it)?
2. How long does it usually take after production begins before dealers start to receive inventory? For example, are cars shipped as they are producted or stored at the plant until a certain date?
3. Is it likely that Cadillac will allow us to drive away in an ATS as soon as dealers receive inventory or will we have to wait for a "Release Date"?
4. When during the production process do car manufacturers usually release full details about options and packages? For example, are full details released once production begins or withheld until closer to dealer delivery?
5. Are brochures with full details about options and packages usually available before dealer delivery?
6. Are there any new hints from Cadillac about when the ATS will be available?

imak92
05-13-12, 02:22 PM
I was told by my dealer in Dubai
That I can preorder by next month
And inventory might arrive by November or October

But I'm pretty sure people in America get It much faster

rand49er
05-13-12, 02:58 PM
A lot of the production plants shut down simultaneously for a couple of weeks in July for "change over" and most employees including salary positions take a forced vacation.

I was told by one of the Cadillac dealers around here (LaFontaine in Highland, MI) that the first models would start arriving in early August. I was also told that these first models would be equipped with the 2.5L motor and that the other motors (first the 3.6L then later the 2.0T) would start showing up within the next several months. IMHO, that 2.0T will rekindle a surge of sales in November/December/whenever like crazy. Can't wait for the rags to come with their takes on it.

As far as literature goes, I'd suspect that dealers, sensing the demand for this new car will be robust, are chomping at the bit to have anything that will help facilitate making sales, so will be hounding the heck out of GM's marketing people for brochures. Sales personnel also have to be schooled on new models by corporate so as to be as fully informed as possible in order to talk to customers. Anyway, my guess is that ATS brochures would be available in late July at the earliest allowing GM to make any last-minute revisions as necessary.

thebigjimsho
05-13-12, 03:14 PM
Champing at the bit.

rand49er
05-13-12, 10:46 PM
Chumping.

spind
05-13-12, 11:12 PM
Chomping, chumping, champing?
You decide.

http://dictionary.com/browse/chomping.

rand49er
05-15-12, 09:39 PM
Chimping? JulieBoombotz

Crusin
05-15-12, 11:27 PM
So is the best guess that production might start in late July or early August?

rand49er
05-16-12, 10:50 AM
Somewhere right in there. I should ask my brother in law. He's a senior project engineer at the GM Tech Center. He's not directly involved in the ATS, but he may know.

Crusin
05-16-12, 03:47 PM
Finally, some answers ... todays Detroit News announced GM's plan to hire 600 workers for the Lansing plant to build the ATS. The article says that production will begin in July and the ATS will hit dealer lots in August.

Dtroit News article - http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120516/AUTO0103/205160321/GM-making-600-new-hires-Lansing-plant-build-Cadillac-ATS?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE%7Cs

ddawson
05-17-12, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the valuable information.

Crusin
05-23-12, 07:55 PM
I just found this link which has pricing with options for the different models - http://autos.aol.com/cars-Cadillac-ATS-2013/overview/

I would like to know what wheels are available for each model.

Pie R Squared
05-24-12, 10:33 AM
I don't think that autos.aol link is correct as I don't see an option for the heads up display unless I am missing it.

georgewerr
05-24-12, 12:05 PM
I don't think that autos.aol link is correct as I don't see an option for the heads up display unless I am missing it.

Might be standerd

thebigjimsho
05-24-12, 02:17 PM
What a nard.

Pie R Squared
05-24-12, 05:10 PM
www.cars.com has a good site for building the ATS with pricing. If you order a 3.6L Premium model (1SU) Heads Up Display (HUD) is included as part of the (1SU) package, on the 3.6L Perfomance model (1SR) you have to order Y66 Driver Assist Package and Y19 Cold weather package to get Heads Up Display.

Crusin
05-25-12, 09:41 PM
LaFontaine Automotive Group answered my questions on their familydealblog.com website. Here are their answers:

1. When is production expected to start (or has it)?

ATS Production starting up at any time. Mid June cars will start coming out.

2. How long does it usually take after production begins before dealers start to receive inventory? For example, are cars shipped as they are producted or stored at the plant until a certain date?

6 Weeks.

3. Is it likely that Cadillac will allow a customer to drive away in an ATS as soon as dealers receive inventory or will we have to wait for a “Release Date”?

Once the cars hit the lot, they can be sold. Customer orders will get filled before dealer orders. Once the cars hit the lots, they can be sold.

4. When during the production process do car manufacturers usually release full details about options and packages? For example, are full details released once production begins or withheld until closer to dealer delivery?

16 different models – 2.5L, 2.0L Turbo, 3.6L Rear Wheel Drive & All Wheel Drive. Here are Cadillac ATS Specs, scroll to bottom of the post.

5. Are brochures with full details about options and packages usually available before dealer delivery?

2013 full line brochures were ordered last week, XTS & ATS brochures should be here the end of June.

6. Are there any new hints from Cadillac about when the ATS will be available?

Our (LaFontaine Buick GMC Cadillac) first order was placed on Tuesday and we should see them in the beginning of August.

Best way to get your ATS is to visit LaFontaine Cadillac, speak with one of our ATS Product Specialists and order you dream vehicle with a small deposit.

bruff1977
05-26-12, 09:28 AM
There's one Package option error (hopefully GM catches it). The Driver Assist and the Driver Awareness package. Driver Awareness is only available with the manual, and doesn't have the adaptive cruise, side blind zone alert, collision prep, and the rear cross traffic alert. I'm guessing the collision prep and the adaptive cruise are can only be had due to the fact it needs an auto to function properly. But the blind zone and rear cross alerts should be part of 'Driver Awareness' right? I know the cars.com build page is preliminary, but I didn't see it available for manuals through GM's order guide either. Am I overlooking anything?

investor74
05-26-12, 12:18 PM
I'm not sure the Cars.com ATS pricing is accurate. For example, they show a delete savings of over $1,000 on the 2.0T if you get the manual. Has this been confirmed? Sometimes the auto or manual are no-cost choices like in the Regal.

rand49er
05-26-12, 06:14 PM
Why didn't LaFontaine post its answers on this forum?I'd very much like that. Most dealers have someone trolling in the various forums, don't they? You almost have to nowadays.

Ilovecars
06-03-12, 09:09 PM
I saw a red ATS getting a car wash on woodward in Birmingham, MI today. Getting close!

Crusin
06-05-12, 12:46 PM
I asked Cadillac to respond to questions similar to the ones at the start of this thread. Specifically, I was hopng Cadillac would tell us more about when production would begin and product information would be available. Cadillac's timeframes are quite different from the ones suggested by the LaFontaine Automotive Group. The response I received today from Cadillac and LaFontine's earlier answers are shown below.

1. When is production expected to start (or has it) on the ATS?

LaFontaine -ATS Production starting up at any time. Mid June cars will start coming out. (LaFontaine's earlier response to question - "How long does it usually take after production begins before dealers start to receive inventory?") 6 weeks.

Cadillac - At this time, the 2013 ATS is scheduled to begin production in the mid to late summer of 2012. It typically takes about 8 to 12 weeks for the vehicles to start arriving at dealerships once production begins.

2. When will full details about options and packages be released?

LaFontaine - 16 different models 2.5L, 2.0L Turbo, 3.6L Rear Wheel Drive & All Wheel Drive. Here are Cadillac ATS Specs, scroll to bottom of the post.

Cadillac - See answer below.

3. When will brochures with full details about options and packages be available?

LaFontaine - 2013 full line brochures were ordered last week, XTS & ATS brochures should be here the end of June.

Cadillac - Please keep in mind that production dates are subject to change and because the vehicle has not started production information such as brochure availability and when the website will be updated is not currently available and should be released closer to the start of production.

thebigjimsho
06-06-12, 04:53 PM
Cadillac has almost always been dead-on-balls accurate with their estimations on release dates of new models. It's been mentioned numerous times on these forums(from those with experience in waiting for new models) that when Cadillac said late summer/early fall for the ATS and June/July for the XTS, that's what you'd get.

Cadillac has never waivered on this for these cars. When the first V was to be released, we were told Jan of '04. For the V2, it was Nov '08. Both were accurate.

Stop listening to someone who just wants your business and will give optimistic estimates. Listen to Cadillac.

EnvoyBu
06-07-12, 01:49 AM
Well, I three of them in a pack today. Getting close...

ral1960
06-08-12, 12:18 AM
I saw an ATS drinking a Pina Colada at Trader Vic's.

GreaseMonkey
06-08-12, 11:06 AM
Saw one parked in the lot today at work.

End of July is SORP (Start of Regular Production).

blkcaddy
06-08-12, 02:23 PM
Did you take any pics of it? If yes can you post them?

GreaseMonkey
06-08-12, 02:45 PM
Did you take any pics of it? If yes can you post them?

I didn't get pics, sorry. I'm excited for the car, but I already see them at least a few times a week. I see at least 2-3 XTSs every day now, so the excitement of new cars goes away quickly.

Crusin
06-08-12, 05:23 PM
Where are all these cars coming from that everyone is seeing? Are these test or limited production cars?

Crusin
06-08-12, 05:24 PM
Where did you hear about regular production starting at the end of July?

rand49er
06-08-12, 06:56 PM
Where are all these cars coming from that everyone is seeing? Are these test or limited production cars?Pre-production vehicles.




Where did you hear about regular production starting at the end of July?I was told by a GM employee who works at the GM Proving Ground who happened to be at LaFontaine Cadillac when they invited a portion of the public (not sure exactly how they came with their mailing list, maybe recent buyers or current owners) when they showed off an XTS and an ATS in their showroom that the first models equipped with the 2.5 motor would start showing up at dealers in early August. The rest is just extrapolated.

GreaseMonkey
06-11-12, 08:05 AM
Where did you hear about regular production starting at the end of July?

I have inside knowledge.

EnvoyBu
06-11-12, 08:25 AM
I have inside knowledge.

I read on another thread that you work at a dealer. Is that correct? Also, if you do, which dealer are you at?

GreaseMonkey
06-11-12, 08:38 AM
I read on another thread that you work at a dealer. Is that correct? Also, if you do, which dealer are you at?

I work for GM at the tech center in Warren, MI.

rand49er
06-11-12, 10:03 AM
I work for GM at the tech center in Warren, MI.That qualifies.

Crusin
06-11-12, 01:43 PM
Thanks for helping us out with some insider info GreaseMonkey. I wish Cadillac would be more specific about giving actual dates when things are going to happen but I'm sure they have their reasons. Afterall, they been doing this for awhile.

GreaseMonkey
06-11-12, 01:54 PM
Thanks for helping us out with some insider info GreaseMonkey. I wish Cadillac would be more specific about giving actual dates when things are going to happen but I'm sure they have their reasons. Afterall, they been doing this for awhile.

The main reason is that the dates aren't set in stone. Nothing is perfect, so things may change here and there depending on if there is an issue or whatever else. I see them change from time to time, so if hard dates were given to customers, people would raise their expectations and get upset when things get delayed a week.

Crusin
06-12-12, 11:42 AM
ATS Production Training Video - writer for the Detroit Free Press shown training for production of the ATS. The clip mentions that "600 workers will be joining in the next few weeks as the ATS gets ready for production".

http://www.freep.com/videonetwork/1641108932001/Training-for-new-Cadillac-ATS-production

rand49er
06-13-12, 09:41 AM
ATS Production Training Video - writer for the Detroit Free Press shown training for production of the ATS. The clip mentions that "600 workers will be joining in the next few weeks as the ATS gets ready for production".

http://www.freep.com/videonetwork/1641108932001/Training-for-new-Cadillac-ATS-productionThey certainly didn't do this kind of training back in the summers of '68 and '69 when I worked on the assembly line during college.

Crusin
06-15-12, 03:15 AM
Cadillac has added a "Build Your Own" button for the ATS - http://www.cadillac.com/ats-compact-car.html

Let the games begin!

bmw2caddy
06-20-12, 11:02 AM
Does Cadillac offer Multiple Security Deposits program like BMW does to reduce the money factor?

Crusin
06-25-12, 01:16 PM
The College Driver (the New School of Car Review) website reports "Production of the four-cylinder engines that will power the 2013 Chevrolet Malibu and 2013 Cadillac ATS has started at General Motors' Tonawanda Engine plant."

http://www.thecollegedriver.com/posts/1730-Malibu-and-ATS-Production-Starts-at-GM-s-Tonawanda-Engine-Plant

Crusin
07-03-12, 05:52 PM
Just for fun I thought I would try to get an update from Cadillac. Here is an excerpt from the reply ...

"ATS start of production is mid-late summer 2012. Brochures are not yet available. Keep in mind that inventory will normally take 8-10 weeks to reach dealerships once production is under way."

How revealing!

2004ctsv
07-04-12, 02:59 PM
Just for fun I thought I would try to get an update from Cadillac. Here is an excerpt from the reply ...

"ATS start of production is mid-late summer 2012. Brochures are not yet available. Keep in mind that inventory will normally take 8-10 weeks to reach dealerships once production is under way."

How revealing!

I got a very similar reply. I asked when the AWD 2.0 will be available. They didn't know.
Better info on this site than at the dealer.

'12CTSman
07-08-12, 09:45 PM
The bread-and-butter model (Standard 2.5 L) will be released first. From what I have been told the 2.0 Turbo will require premium gas. The 3.6 will be 321 HP in the ATS. The term "pocket rocket" is being used to describe the ATS with 0-60 at 5.3 seconds. I just hope it has more interior room than the BMW 3 Series. A loaded 3.6 Premium AWD will be close, or a little higher, to a comparable CTS 3.6 Premium AWD, but the ATS will have all the new safety features like adaptive cruise, etc. So, you're looking at close to $54K!!! Bummer. I was sad to hear the Bose 10-speaker system will be the top audio unit. I was hoping for the Studio Surround system with 14 speakers like in the XTS.

Ilovecars
07-08-12, 10:58 PM
I found a nice detailed stat page online.

http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/2013-cadillac-ats-specifications/

rand49er
07-09-12, 09:45 PM
I found a nice detailed stat page online.

http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/2013-cadillac-ats-specifications/Interesting. Is this credible? If so, reasonably thorough.

TimCTSV
07-11-12, 06:54 PM
From what I've learned by emailing GM, all three engines will be available at the launch date. They said the 2.0 will not be delayed until the fall. Get ready. As a Saab owner, I look forward to a GM turbo in a car that weighs less than 3500.

bmw2caddy
07-11-12, 08:19 PM
Waiting for a firm release date is tough…..looking forward to some firm info on when we'll be able to get our hands on this car.

Crusin
07-11-12, 10:47 PM
Has anyone heard where they are in the production cycle? Have they actually started building these cars?

bmw2caddy
07-11-12, 11:32 PM
I read something about late August.

ddawson
07-12-12, 09:41 AM
I read they are going to start building on 23 July.

thebigjimsho
07-12-12, 01:53 PM
I read they are going to start building on 23 July.

Doubt it. They've been saying early Fall since forever, it seems. Late August production with cars trickling out in late Sept/early Oct sounds right...

Crusin
07-21-12, 12:50 PM
the Build button for the ATS is no longer on the Cadillac website ...

rage2021
07-22-12, 07:49 PM
Anyone else feel like there's still a lack of info on the car? I mean I thought they originally said it would be released summer..and we still don't have a definite release date/detailed pricing..I would like to start seeing it on the road and hearing some reviews.

Crusin
07-23-12, 03:59 PM
The Build Your Own button is back and this time it has pricing ... http://www.cadillac.com/ats-luxury-sport-sedan.html

ddawson
07-23-12, 07:15 PM
Thank you very, very much.

rage2021
07-23-12, 08:34 PM
woohoo! a day after i said there's no reviews/pricing it all comes out! loool.

rage2021
07-23-12, 08:42 PM
hmm kinda pricey for the 2.0L luxury, tacks on an extra $5k for

CUE (Cadillac User Experience) Information and Media Control System
Driver and front passenger 8-way power seat adjusters
Memory Package
Grille, Midnight Chrome accented
Rear Park Assist
Rearview backup camera
17" x 8" polished aluminum wheel


does that seem reasonable? the weird thing is for only 2k more you can get the 3.6 L with all the above options already included.

The Tony Show
07-23-12, 10:53 PM
Taking away the cost of the turbo and necessary hardware eats up some of the equipment costs. Chances are the HF 3.6L actually costs less to build.

thebigjimsho
07-25-12, 11:58 PM
Anyone else feel like there's still a lack of info on the car? I mean I thought they originally said it would be released summer..and we still don't have a definite release date/detailed pricing..I would like to start seeing it on the road and hearing some reviews.Who is "they"? I'm guessing some internet site. Cadillac has always said summer for XTS, fall for ATS...

DG2
07-26-12, 06:44 AM
hmm kinda pricey for the 2.0L luxury, tacks on an extra $5k for

CUE (Cadillac User Experience) Information and Media Control System
Driver and front passenger 8-way power seat adjusters
Memory Package
Grille, Midnight Chrome accented
Rear Park Assist
Rearview backup camera
17" x 8" polished aluminum wheel

does that seem reasonable? the weird thing is for only 2k more you can get the 3.6 L with all the above options already included.

Go for the 3.6L. For only $2k more it's worth every penny

thebigjimsho
07-26-12, 09:07 AM
No way. The 2.0T will be much better with just a simple tune. Possibly provided by GM themselves with full warranty...

concorso
07-26-12, 10:26 AM
Which ATS will be the 1st into the 12's in the 1/4mile? 2.5L/2.0T/3.6L or the ATS-V? Any predictions? My pick is the 2.0T... :)

Crusin
07-26-12, 03:49 PM
Several articles today about the start of ATS production. First car is supposed to be finished by 10:30 a.m. today. Cars expected in dealer lots in mid-to-late August. This article has good pics of the assembly line ... http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1078017_2013-cadillac-ats-production-starts-deliveries-in-august

It's surprising to me how they kept the start of production so hush-hush.

ddawson
07-26-12, 05:03 PM
Approximately how many cars can be assembled in a 24 hour period?

Crusin
07-28-12, 12:31 PM
I just found that you can download the ATS brochure from the Cadillac website http://www.cadillac.com/content/dam/Cadillac/Global/master/nscwebsite/en/home/Help_Center/Download_Brochure/01_images/2013_Cadillac_ATS_Catalog_7-24.pdf. I printed the ATS Features and Options page - unfortuneately the black background and white text is virtually unreadable in my Economy Quality printing mode. Hopefully, a brochure will be mailed to those who have registered for ATS updates.

Crusin
08-16-12, 09:15 PM
Has anyone heard if any dealers have taken delivery of the ATS?

AtlantaGuy00
08-16-12, 09:21 PM
My dealer says that they will receive a shipment the 4th week of Aug., and since we have 3 dealers in Atlanta I'm hoping to find one that matches just what I want.

ddawson
08-17-12, 09:54 AM
I just found that you can download the ATS brochure from the Cadillac website http://www.cadillac.com/content/dam/Cadillac/Global/master/nscwebsite/en/home/Help_Center/Download_Brochure/01_images/2013_Cadillac_ATS_Catalog_7-24.pdf. I printed the ATS Features and Options page - unfortuneately the black background and white text is virtually unreadable in my Economy Quality printing mode. Hopefully, a brochure will be mailed to those who have registered for ATS updates.
Thanks, this is just what I'm looking for.

buttfish77
08-19-12, 07:40 PM
Just stopped by a local Cadillac dealer in the San Diego area. They said that the earliest they'd have anything to look at would be late September. I'm guessing the "anything" means a base 2.5 or something. Which dealers are going to be the first to get some inventory? Detroit area?

AtlantaGuy00
08-19-12, 08:26 PM
From what I understand late Sept. is the target date for delivery on the 2.0T models. The other models should be arriving in about a week, at least in Atlanta. I've had two Atlanta dealers give me the same target date being the end of Aug., except for the turbos.

buttfish77
08-19-12, 09:10 PM
Must vary a lot region by region then, although I should think that southern-Cal is a market GM needs to make a good impression in.

frankc5r
08-19-12, 10:24 PM
Thanks, this is just what I'm looking for.
This link from my post in the general section is the ATS order guide with WAY MORE info than the brochure.

http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2013&regionID=1&divisionID=5&type=0&vehicleID=12622&section=oi_def&page=1&butID=3

frank

frankc5r
08-19-12, 10:27 PM
From what I understand late Sept. is the target date for delivery on the 2.0T models. The other models should be arriving in about a week, at least in Atlanta. I've had two Atlanta dealers give me the same target date being the end of Aug., except for the turbos.

Same here in SE Michigan. The ATS plant is the Grand River plant in Lansing, about 70 mi from me. Plan to visit asap. Cars expected shortly.

AtlantaGuy00
08-22-12, 06:26 PM
I'm waiting.... I'm getting impatient too. I hope when they finally do arrive that they have one that I want. I'd hate to have to wait for another delivery. That also makes me ask the question: how frequently will dealers be getting new ATS' in stock if they don't have what I want? (which is not a 2.0T BTW). Will shipments arrive weekly/monthly?

RippyPartsDept
08-22-12, 06:28 PM
Well, where are they?

pittsburgh
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-ats-picture-forum/267993-opulent-blue-ebony-ats-spotted-pittsburgh.html#post3064287

thebigjimsho
08-22-12, 06:56 PM
A GM car. It's got MI plates in Pittsburgh. Not for public sale.

RippyPartsDept
08-22-12, 07:44 PM
Shhhhh

rage2021
08-22-12, 08:28 PM
anyone know if you have to order a specefic package for the vertical LED headlights? i would assume most people would want that look I hope it comes standard...

EnvoyBu
08-22-12, 08:52 PM
anyone know if you have to order a specefic package for the vertical LED headlights? i would assume most people would want that look I hope it comes standard...

Only standard on Performance and Premium Collections.

rage2021
08-22-12, 10:16 PM
Only standard on Performance and Premium Collections.

well that sux now i got to get minimum performance package, wish they jsut added it seperately as an option of anything

investor74
08-22-12, 11:25 PM
well that sux now i got to get minimum performance package, wish they jsut added it seperately as an option of anything

Don't worry about the LEDs. Get whatever package you want. There will be plenty of aftermarket LED kits for the ATS available soon.

rage2021
08-23-12, 12:10 AM
Don't worry about the LEDs. Get whatever package you want. There will be plenty of aftermarket LED kits for the ATS available soon.

really? ok cool hopefully they look as good as the oem ones and arnt a hassle to get/install.

blkcaddy
08-23-12, 01:42 AM
Why should you have to spend more money on something they should have just done standard? And by "more" money I mean at least 10k dollars to get the full led headlight/fog light. Mercedes offers led fog lights standard even if you buy the base model! Different mentality that gm will never adopt. BMW fighter.....lol!!!!! Let's be realistic! The ats will never out sell the BMW 3 series....and I don't even like the BMW 3 series!

EnvoyBu
08-23-12, 03:04 AM
Why should you have to spend more money on something they should have just done standard? And by "more" money I mean at least 10k dollars to get the full led headlight/fog light. Mercedes offers led fog lights standard even if you buy the base model! Different mentality that gm will never adopt. BMW fighter.....lol!!!!! Let's be realistic!

Your joking, right?

rage2021
08-23-12, 09:21 AM
I actually agree, Cadillac dropped the ball a bit on that one..I mean they should have just included it as standard, its a low cost item to them I would think and provides the extra visual appeal that average consumer would like..

Atswatcher
08-23-12, 11:58 AM
The no fog on base line is fine, not every one will like the fog style, if you really want it, pay a little more. Don't force everyone to get it just because you think it is cool.

JimmyH
08-23-12, 01:37 PM
LED lights :ack:

rage2021
08-23-12, 02:44 PM
The no fog on base line is fine, not every one will like the fog style, if you really want it, pay a little more. Don't force everyone to get it just because you think it is cool.

then don't force people to pay more who DO think its cool. lol. and its not a 'bit' more by my estimation. standard vs premium is what, another ~ $7k?

thebigjimsho
08-23-12, 04:33 PM
Why should you have to spend more money on something they should have just done standard? And by "more" money I mean at least 10k dollars to get the full led headlight/fog light. Mercedes offers led fog lights standard even if you buy the base model! Different mentality that gm will never adopt. BMW fighter.....lol!!!!! Let's be realistic! The ats will never out sell the BMW 3 series....and I don't even like the BMW 3 series!

You've never been realistic, except in your own mind...

blkcaddy
08-24-12, 07:15 PM
I'm never wrong!

blkcaddy
08-24-12, 07:16 PM
Im never wrong!

JimmyH
08-24-12, 07:34 PM
no need to repeat yourself