: DIY Northstar Head Gasket / Crankcase Leak Repair



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bill buttermore
05-14-12, 08:09 PM
Well, I had some time to clean up the bearings and have a good look and I did not really like what I saw - they are all showing wear. The mains and the rods. So, I will be replacing all. And, though I may not need them, I don't feel like taking even a small chance on the bolts, so will be changing those, too. What the heck - it's only another $320.

Faded Crest
05-14-12, 11:10 PM
Bill Check your inbox.... I sent you a PM.

bill buttermore
05-15-12, 12:01 AM
Documenting progress

Marked the crank sensors, removed, bagged and labeled them. Removed oil pan.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001k-1.jpg

Then removed the oil strainer, twenty big bolts, and the little 10mm bolts to remove the wiper

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002k-1.jpg

Removed the oil manifold. then, using a dull screwdriver on the pry points provided, gently pried the case apart

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003k-1.jpg

Undid the rod bolts and carefully pushed out the pistons and rods. Kept the bearing caps aligned and the bearings where they were in case they were good enough to re-use. Lifted out the crank and put it in a new garbage bag to keep it clean.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000004l.jpg

All the other internal engine parts are stored in new plastic tubs with lids to keep them together and clean.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006j.jpg

This old case seal was really flattened. Notice no extra bead of sealant around, just gasket shellac used to hold the silicone bead in the groove.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005j.jpg

Sprayed the block down with kerosene, put it in the sun to dry, and ate lunch. The block is now in the capable hands of Midwest Cylinder Head in Nevada, Ia. They will make that right side right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007j.jpg

I was goin' pretty quickly this morning; didn't stop to closely examine the bearings. When I did later in the day I found scuffing, dirt impregnation, scratches, and other stuff you don't want to see on your bearings. Here a just a couple of pix. The full set are in my photobucket Northstar album (over 300 pix now) open to the public here:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/

Main bearing top shells

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008j.jpg

#8 rod bearing

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000024a.jpg

Time now to order parts, and start cleaning and organizing to build it back up.

Faded Crest
05-15-12, 12:07 AM
Everything looks so familiar. :D Wow, you weren't kidding... That #8 bearing looks rough!

rodnok01
05-15-12, 12:07 PM
Mains look good at least, yea that #8 is looking pretty rough.

bill buttermore
05-15-12, 01:09 PM
Unbelievable! Less than 24 hr turnaround on the block surface. Midwest Cylinder Head does such beautiful work - it's a shame this has to go inside an engine where it will never be seen. While they had it set up, they checked the flatness of the left bank as well - it was within .001 (!) of perfectly flat. My straightedge is not long enough to do the complete diagonal on the cylinder heads, just the area within the big bolts. And, even though they look okay, I think I'll go ahead and take the heads over to MCH and have them check/surface the heads as needed. $64 worth of insurance. Then, there will be no question about the sealing surfaces.

I ordered the right side 0.020" laser-cut steel shim this morning from Innovative Machine Supply out of Missouri. Should be here Thursday - $42 With that applied to the block, it will be as new re flatness and geometry.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000026a.jpg

vincentm
05-15-12, 02:59 PM
Nice!

eyewonder
05-15-12, 09:56 PM
We'll see how we feel about an encore performance when this job is done. And, I guess I'm not even done buying specialty tools yet. Need some special tool for spreading sealant for the rear main supposedly.....I'm thinking: how about the popsicle stick in my mouth?



Bill,

The procedure is written up in this thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/117232-case-halves-reseal-fwd-rtv-sealant.html and a graphic of the tools are shown.

Here are some pictures that might help. The first one is the seal itself:
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r582/eyewonder300/Cadillac%20STS/Rear%20Main%20Seal/P1010105.jpg

Next pic is of the two piece tool used to spread the sealant in the inner bore of the case, after its reassembled. The blue disc centers on the crank, is held in place by two bolts. Its purpose is to keep the other piece centered. The black tool is fully inserted as far as it will go. Then sealant is gooped in, and the black plastic piece is pulled out, hopefully leaving a uniform coat of sealant, ready to bond to the seal.
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r582/eyewonder300/Cadillac%20STS/Rear%20Main%20Seal/P1010108.jpg

This shot shows how it would be inserted around the blue disc (after it has been secured to the crank), and into the block.
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r582/eyewonder300/Cadillac%20STS/Rear%20Main%20Seal/P1010109.jpg

And now we see the inner part of the seal installation tool. This uses the crank to hold alignment, and bolts to hold it in place. This is shown separately for clarity.

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r582/eyewonder300/Cadillac%20STS/Rear%20Main%20Seal/P1010110.jpg

After the goop is applied to the bore, the blue inner disc is removed, and the seal is loaded onto the installation tool. The two black screws secure the inner portion of the tool to the crank, and then the big hex coupling nut is turned to force in the seal. At least that's the theory - I have not actually done that myself -- yet. so make sure you read up, and understand what is actually needed.

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r582/eyewonder300/Cadillac%20STS/Rear%20Main%20Seal/P1010107.jpg


Cheers,
Steve

----------


And, while we're at it, does anyone have a new connecting rod bolt that they can measure with a good set of electronic calipers? Reaspn I ask is, if mine have not inelastically stretched, I may consider re-using them, too - GASP!

Bill,

It turns out that I have 8 new con rod bolts that were not torqued (a very sad story, that) that I measured, and 8 from the trash that came from the 170K mile engine. My 8 new, untorqued ones measure from 2.077" to 2.085". The old, used ones measured from 2.080" to 2.101".

With only that data, I would not be comfortable saying any specific bolt was OK/NOT OK. Also, the old bolts did not show any visible (to me) signs of being stretched, or distorted.

Cheers,
Steve

bill buttermore
05-15-12, 10:41 PM
Thank you for helping me to understand the rear seal process with that excellent "slide show", Steve. The seal installation tool I bought has three rather than two bolts, and I have not tried to take it apart to understand how it operates yet. How much does the goop spreader sell for? I will be watching your thread carefully to see how you get it done. And....thanks for measuring those rod bolts - I agree, with so much variance on the length of a new one, it would be hard to know when a bolt was stretched. Well....it seemed like a good idea at the time.....

I must admit, a wicked thought has occurred to me. I have been toying with the idea of replacing the lip seal that was on the rear of my crank with another lip seal instead of the new press-on style. My case leak made it look like my rear seal was leaking, but when I tested it the other night, found it dry - at least with no oil in the pan and the engine not running. Thing is, if my original lip seal lasted for 14 years, I would be happy replacing it with the same - and no fancy tooling required. And, more cheap thoughts, I have seen conversion sets for older N*s for sale on e-bay for $40-some, instead of the $104 for Fel-Pro, then another $50 for a GM rear seal. I was wondering if a conversion gasket set for say a 95 model would get me in trouble. I need to make a decision soon, as I need to get my gaskets on order so I don't end up waiting on parts.

I saw in your thread your ARP 93mm tapered ring compressor. Saw how to use it on youtube. Was so impressed that I ordered one. Now I can strip my rings, clean the pistons up right and hopefully re-install the pistons quickly and safely.

Steve...sent you a PM

eyewonder
05-15-12, 11:32 PM
Bill,

Only having any - limited - experience with the 2000, make sure that your year engine uses the same type seal as I expect to use, and needs the same tools.

And on the subject of gaskets, I just ordered the current GM rear main seal, based on the comments from Jake & Chris @ Rippy - they think the Fel-Pro are not as good as genuine GM. And with current procedure for oil pan to NOT use the silicone seal, just the RTV sealant, that seems to be too many duplicate/non-used seals. I am wondering if it would have been better - and cheaper - to just order the gaskets one-at-a-time from Chris. BTW, he gives Cadillac Forum members a discount, so he deserves consideration for your business.

And last gasket question for you - did I understand correctly that you will be getting some sort of .020" shim to compensate for the cleaned up block? Would that be in addition to the regular head gasket? Perhaps I read too fast, and didn't catch everything. Or maybe I should just put down that crack-pipe!

Cheers,
Steve

Faded Crest
05-15-12, 11:39 PM
Are you sure the 2000+ seals and the 1999 and older are compatible? I know I'm certainly not planning to buy any more high dollar seal tools. I assumed the tool I have worked with the seal I got, but if not, I'm finding the seal that will work with it.

bill buttermore
05-16-12, 12:06 AM
...

And last gasket question for you - did I understand correctly that you will be getting some sort of .020" shim to compensate for the cleaned up block? Would that be in addition to the regular head gasket? Perhaps I read too fast, and didn't catch everything. Or maybe I should just put down that crack-pipe!

Cheers,
Steve Yep. You know our FSM says the block cannot be machined - if it is out of "flatness" by more than .004 to toss it and buy a new block. That might have cost a bit more than the $140 I will spend to restore this one. I have used shims before on overhead cam engines like Mercedes where the timing can be affected by too much machining on the head and/or block. The shim can provide a means of bringing things back to where they should be. In this case, I requested if the shop could not just skim the high spots, to go ahead and take a full .020 knowing that I could replace the deck to original height with a shim. They found variance of .014 on that surface, so went ahead and cut down a full .020. When I re-assemble, I will spray the bottom of the steel shim with copper gasket spray and apply it to the block. Head gasket goes on next and then the head. If I had thought that the cylinder head on that side would have needed more than a few thousandths to clean up, I would have done the head first, then had the shop remove the difference so that with the shim installed, the geometry would have been as new.

89falcon
05-16-12, 01:52 PM
Yep. You know our FSM says the block cannot be machined - if it is out of "flatness" by more than .004 to toss it and buy a new block. That might have cost a bit more than the $140 I will spend to restore this one. I have used shims before on overhead cam engines like Mercedes where the timing can be affected by too much machining on the head and/or block. The shim can provide a means of bringing things back to where they should be. In this case, I requested if the shop could not just skim the high spots, to go ahead and take a full .020 knowing that I could replace the deck to original height with a shim. They found variance of .014 on that surface, so went ahead and cut down a full .020. When I re-assemble, I will spray the bottom of the steel shim with copper gasket spray and apply it to the block. Head gasket goes on next and then the head. If I had thought that the cylinder head on that side would have needed more than a few thousandths to clean up, I would have done the head first, then had the shop remove the difference so that with the shim installed, the geometry would have been as new.

Why not just get a thicker MLS head gasket?.......

bill buttermore
05-16-12, 04:04 PM
Why not just get a thicker MLS head gasket?.......The only MLS gaskets I knew about for the N* were $150/ea and I didn't know what thickness those were. The steel shim plus the graphite gasket is <$70, and brings the engine back to original tolerances, so I guess the answer would be....to choose the least expensive repair that did not compromise quality. If the engine needs head gaskets again, normal graphite at $20/ea will work fine as the shim is re-useable. Seemed like a good choice.

89falcon
05-16-12, 04:14 PM
The only MLS gaskets I knew about for the N* were $150/ea and I didn't know what thickness those were. The steel shim plus the graphite gasket is <$70, and brings the engine back to original tolerances, so I guess the answer would be....to choose the least expensive repair that did not compromise quality. If the engine needs head gaskets again, normal graphite at $20/ea will work fine as the shim is re-useable. Seemed like a good choice.

The stock MLS thickness ones are about $150 each.....but IIRC, they do customs for a little more.

While the steel shims are re-usable....isn't it the point of the whole exercise to NOT have to re-use them? There has been some speculation that the head gaskets themselves may be part of the problem....kind of a chicken and egg thing.....did the threads fail...causing the gasket to go...or did the gasket start going, causing coolant to leak into....and corrode the threads?

You've already spent WAY more than I'd want to spend....so I'm not being critical of the choice....I just see the head gasket, and related components to be THE weak link on the engine, so if I were going to spend a little extra anywhere, that would be the place!

bill buttermore
05-16-12, 04:36 PM
The stock MLS thickness ones are about $150 each.....but IIRC, they do customs for a little more.

While the steel shims are re-usable....isn't it the point of the whole exercise to NOT have to re-use them? There has been some speculation that the head gaskets themselves may be part of the problem....kind of a chicken and egg thing.....did the threads fail...causing the gasket to go...or did the gasket start going, causing coolant to leak into....and corrode the threads?

You've already spent WAY more than I'd want to spend....so I'm not being critical of the choice....I just see the head gasket, and related components to be THE weak link on the engine, so if I were going to spend a little extra anywhere, that would be the place! Yeah, you gotta wonder about why they fail in the first place. Seems to me like the HG gets cut on that sharp edge of the open water jacket - but the consensus seems to be that the bolts pull. I dunno - my bolts and threads looked okay, but that rear block was .014 low in the middle. Was it the torch or something else? Anyway, studded engines don't seem to have repeat failures with graphite gaskets, and $280 more, like you say, is $280 more than I wanna spend right now.

rodnok01
05-16-12, 09:36 PM
I'd be curious if anyone has put a torque gauge on their failed held bolts prior to removal(tighten them not loosen). Also has anyone seen if frt vs rear fails more often, possibly rear head gets hotter due to location and design problems cause block issues and people just are not catching them and new gaskets and studs cure the problem.
looking good Bill so far and i could see using the old style seal esp since they do last along time anyways and the design and materials has prob improved some too.

bill buttermore
05-16-12, 10:30 PM
I'd be curious if anyone has put a torque gauge on their failed held bolts prior to removal(tighten them not loosen). Also has anyone seen if frt vs rear fails more often, possibly rear head gets hotter due to location and design problems cause block issues and people just are not catching them and new gaskets and studs cure the problem.
looking good Bill so far and i could see using the old style seal esp since they do last along time anyways and the design and materials has prob improved some too.I don't know if a torque wrench would have given me useable information. When I undid my head bolts, almost all of them came undone with a distinct double snap. My guess is that over time, the bolts freeze in place and it takes a lot more torque to undo them than it would take to produce the same stretch in a new oiled bolt in clean threads. I think I have read that the rear bank fails more frequently - the reason given is that it is exposed to more heat stress.

89falcon
05-16-12, 11:19 PM
I don't know if a torque wrench would have given me useable information. When I undid my head bolts, almost all of them came undone with a distinct double snap. My guess is that over time, the bolts freeze in place and it takes a lot more torque to undo them than it would take to produce the same stretch in a new oiled bolt in clean threads. I think I have read that the rear bank fails more frequently - the reason given is that it is exposed to more heat stress.

The factory bolts come with a coating that lubricates during torquing, and is a thread locker. If the bolt does NOT rerelease with a "snap" then the tread lock failed....due to coolant impregnation.

bill buttermore
05-16-12, 11:22 PM
The factory bolts come with a coating that lubricates during torquing, and is a thread locker. If the bolt does NOT rerelease with a "snap" then the tread lock failed....due to coolant impregnation. Ahhh...good to know.

bill buttermore
05-17-12, 02:14 PM
Can't spend all my time in the garage - had some other "valve maintenance" to take care of this AM

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5914/im000002l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/im000002l.jpg/)

Parts are starting to come in. Got these King bearings for $160 on Ebay

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5188/im000003l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/im000003l.jpg/)

bill buttermore
05-17-12, 06:11 PM
UPS delivered the shim today - hey, is that a crease across the package? Maybe they just bent the outer box......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/Untitled-7.jpg

Nope, looks like they got the inner, too

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002m.jpg

Oh crap! This is one ruined shim. Apparently CNC laser-cut precision is no match for UPS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003m.jpg

vincentm
05-17-12, 06:21 PM
UPS is pronounced OOPS for a reason, they're idiots. Sucks to see that man, hope it all turns out well

rodnok01
05-17-12, 06:23 PM
I hate getting flat stuff shipped by anyone...half the time it gets damaged. Ask them to put a piece of plywood in the next box. Your cat looks like he's saying...get your crap off my table...

89falcon
05-17-12, 08:07 PM
UPS delivered the shim today - hey, is that a crease across the package? Maybe they just bent the outer box......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/Untitled-7.jpg

Nope, looks like they got the inner, too

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002m.jpg

Oh crap! This is one ruined shim. Apparently CNC laser-cut precision is no match for UPS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003m.jpg

Ouch! No chance of beating it flat? Maybe put it between two flat surfaces in a press?

The box doesn't appear to say "do not bend".......:nono:

bill buttermore
05-17-12, 08:33 PM
Ouch! No chance of beating it flat? Maybe put it between two flat surfaces in a press?

The box doesn't appear to say "do not bend".......:nono: I called Scott at Innomach, e-mailed the pix. He agrees I need a new one and will be sending it out tomorrow. Trying to bend it back flat is asking for HG failure. After all this work.....ain't goin' there.

Faded Crest
05-18-12, 02:09 AM
UPS SUCKS!!!!!!

That's all... :D

bill buttermore
05-18-12, 02:45 PM
Removing piston rings one at a time. Cleaning and marking each with which ring and which side is up. Cleaning the piston grooves and reinstalling the rings.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000012f.jpg

Got about half done now and thought it would be a good idea to check the ring end gap - a quick measure of combined cylinder and ring wear.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011g.jpg

Allowable gap on top ring is .016, on second - .020, and on the oil rings .030. The compression rings are close to the allowable limit, the oil rings are well below .030.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000010f.jpg

I may do new rings, maybe not. The engine was not burning any oil or showing any indication of loss of compression.

matt<3's_cadillacs
05-18-12, 02:50 PM
i have a question for anyone who has delt with it , the boot that covers the steering intermediate shaft , how can i work around or remove this to get to the diconnecting pin so i can drop the engine?

bill buttermore
05-18-12, 05:06 PM
i have a question for anyone who has delt with it , the boot that covers the steering intermediate shaft , how can i work around or remove this to get to the diconnecting pin so i can drop the engine?If you look earlier in this thread, you will find a description of how to do this with pictures. Page 2. Here's the link:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/257508-diy-northstar-head-gasket-crankcase-leak-2.html

eyewonder
05-18-12, 10:16 PM
i have a question for anyone who has delt with it , the boot that covers the steering intermediate shaft , how can i work around or remove this to get to the diconnecting pin so i can drop the engine?

Most report an easy time lifting/moving the boot to get at the pinch-bolt - I, however, had to resort to cutters, saws, etc to get the old boot off, then order a new one. I have not re-installed the engine/cradle, so I don't know just how this will work out for me.

Cheers,
Steve

bill buttermore
05-19-12, 12:31 AM
Observed that there really isn't room to surface the head if it needs it with the intake valves in place. They can't be more than a few thousandths out of the way. So......I'm gonna strip the heads before they go for flatness checking at Midwest Cylinder Head and any needed surfacing. 64 valve keepers to keep track of... yipes!

And, I gotta say. This is a beautifully-made cylinder head. I've worked on Toyota, Lexus, and Mercedes among others and they don't show any better quality than what I am working on tonight. Kinda nice to think USA can still do it when they try. This is one classy engine.

bill buttermore
05-19-12, 10:47 AM
There are a lot of ways to keep all the parts safe, organized, and clean. I like to mark the parts before removing them, then store them in new plastic bags that are also labeled.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001n.jpg

Spent about an hour cleaning this head yesterday with kerosene and a pan. I'll need to make a fixture for my valve spring compressor that fits the N*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002n.jpg

Marked and wrapped each cam in bubblewrap, then into the tub

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003n.jpg

Faded Crest
05-20-12, 01:05 AM
I wish I was as organized as you Bill. :D Or I should say my wife wishes I was as organized as you. :rolleyes:

bill buttermore
05-20-12, 08:57 AM
I wish I was as organized as you Bill. :D Or I should say my wife wishes I was as organized as you. :rolleyes:All is not as it seems. There is a reason you don't see many wide shots of my teensy little garage. Let's just say it's a little cluttered. :rolleyes: Were it not for the plastic tubs stacked all over the place, there would be absolutely no hope of finding all the parts!

I used to use egg cartons for lifters, but if they fall, or get kicked, the parts may not find their way back to their original homes. I'll probably have to buy another tub today to isolate the parts for the heads - that makes a total of 5 tubs plus a full trunk in the Caddy so far. If I had really been thinking, I would have bought all the same size and type so that when I am done, I could stack and store them empty in a space smaller than half my garage.

bill buttermore
05-21-12, 01:11 AM
Got both heads stripped. Just have to clean one up before I take them over for checking/surfacing at MCH tomorrow. All the exhaust valves sealing surfaces are pretty rough. I may take a couple over to the shop and see how much they want to grind 'em. Intakes looked great. All cam lobes, journals and saddles looked great. Not much wiggle on the guides. Here's a typical exhaust valve:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/Untitled-9.jpg

There was only one lifter that had started to erode. Think I should replace it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/Untitled-8.jpg

The valve stem seals still feel resilient, but it would be real easy to change them out - about $40 from Rock Auto.

Faded Crest
05-21-12, 11:27 AM
I didn't know you were doing such a complete job. I didn't tear my heads down at all, just removed the cams. Bill, I grabbed several extra lifter followers at the junkyard because a few of mine looked like yours. If you want a better one PM me and I'll send you one.

bill buttermore
05-21-12, 02:13 PM
I didn't know you were doing such a complete job. I didn't tear my heads down at all, just removed the cams. Bill, I grabbed several extra lifter followers at the junkyard because a few of mine looked like yours. If you want a better one PM me and I'll send you one.The heads measured just a scoch over .002 on the back end when I laid my straightedge on em. The shop offered to surface them for $32/ea, and I just could not pass that up. But, the intake valves were really close to the head surface, and I figured it would be cheaper for me to pull the valves than the shop. Thanks for the offer on the lifter. Sent PM

bill buttermore
05-21-12, 09:53 PM
Cleaned the heads with kerosene, then took them to the speedy wash and got myself wet. Thought I was ready for the shop.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006l.jpg

Called the shop to see if they needed the cam caps. The manager said I needed to install the cams and torque them to spec with no valves in place. If the cams spin by hand, the head is not warped and they do not need the caps. So, back on the bench. Happily, the parts were easy to find. Set the cams in place...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011h.jpg

Added a bit of cam lube to each bearing surface, and torqued down the caps. Used a 3/8" drive torque wrench to 9 ft-lb. All four cams spun easily by hand. So, off to the shop tomorrow morning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000012g.jpg

rodnok01
05-21-12, 10:11 PM
I think you should change the thread title to "Total teardown and rebuild" or "S*** what the hell did I get into?!" You're making me want to pick a couple N*'s up to have for parts before I get one needing gaskets.

bill buttermore
05-21-12, 10:28 PM
I think you should change the thread title to "Total teardown and rebuild" or "S*** what the hell did I get into?!" You're making me want to pick a couple N*'s up to have for parts before I get one needing gaskets.I think you're right! If I replace the valve stem seals and exhaust valves, I'll have a rebuild. I didn't really intend to go this far. But, I am really thankful to have passed this way before with other engines. Seems this job needs three things - money - experience - and patience. No, wait, four things: money - experience - patience - and money. Not done yet by any means, but even at this point, I am comfortable to say this is not a job for the first-time DIY guy or even a casual mechanic.

You also have a great idea re the N* for spares. Great to find a low-miles engine in a wrecked car and pull the whole thing for spares. Would make a lot of sense for the guy planning to do more than one of these.

rodnok01
05-21-12, 11:10 PM
Yea your engine would have given inexperienced mechanic absolute fits and probably would have not lasted if they got it together. I wouldn't recommend a N* for a first timer engine teardown and rebuild that's for sure. I've slapped many a SBC together with crappy parts and and so so bearings and they lasted for a long time, not so sure it would work with these engines. It's just about the same skill level as auto trans rebuild at the point you're at. What kind of adapter did you use for spring compressor, I saw one somewhere that was a piece of tubing with sides cutout for access basically. Another site I saw a homemade real seal installer made of alum plates and PVC from what it looked like. I picked up a valve grinder years ago and forgot I had it until I saw your valves..LOL

bill buttermore
05-22-12, 01:39 AM
... What kind of adapter did you use for spring compressor... I used a 3/4" copper "T" fitting - cut off the side branch. It was just the right length and a little smaller in diameter than the spring retainer. I used a "C" type compressor with an adjustable fork on top. There is plenty of space between the fingers of the fork to go straight down to the top of the valve. I just dragged a magnet down a long thin screwdriver and used it to lift out the keepers. How I'm gonna install 'em? Maybe cut a big notch out of the bottom end of the T, and coax them in with grease. Or, if I thought I could find one that actually worked, buy a keeper installer. It's gonna be a nightmare, I'm afraid, putting them back in.

Submariner409
05-22-12, 10:46 AM
Either reface or replace the exhaust valves - that pitting is too much to lap out: you would wind up with sunken valve faces and probably ruin the valve seat inserts in the heads. The valves have been removed: replace all valve stem seals.

My advice would be to replace the exhaust valves: If the faces are as eroded as they look, properly refacing the valves will change the effective valve stem length - the valve will be deeper in the head seat - and thus change the hydraulic lash requirement by 4 or more thousandths.

FWIW, that exhaust valve erosion is exactly what the old tetraethyl lead in gasoline prevented - thus the new requirements for hardened valve seats and faces.

bill buttermore
05-22-12, 10:55 AM
Either reface or replace the exhaust valves - that pitting is too much to lap out. The valves have been removed: replace all valve stem seals.Yep. More good advice, (as usual). Sent the order to RockAuto this morning for the seals, and 16 exhaust valves. The shop is gonna remove the stem seals for me when they check/surface the heads. The seats are still okay. I'll lap the new ones in.

Has anyone used the smaller Lisle tool for installation of valve keepers? If it works ok on the N*, I may have to have one.

Costs to Date:

Rod Bearings...........................110
Rod bolts.................................99
Block surface...........................90
.020 shim.................................53
Head surface............................68
Exhaust valves........................151
Valve stem seals.......................38
Lifter.......................................13

Main Bearings...........................49
Head Gaskets...........................36
Intake Gaskets..........................31
Valve Cover Gaskets...................43
Tmg Cvr Gasket Set....................28
Water Pump Gaskets...................31
Camshaft Seal............................14
Manifold Plate............................60
Exhaust Manifold Gaskets.............13
Exhaust Pipe Gasket.....................4
AC Receiver/Dryer.......................13
AC Orifice Tube............................1
Shipping minus 5% discount............3

Studs........................................315
Rear Seal tool.............................150
93mm Ring Compressor...................60
Stud tool kit rental/shipping............62
Torch rental.................................60
Rear Lip Seal................................18
Drill & Tap supplies........................35
Threadlocker.................................25
Tool modifications..........................20
Parts containers............................42

Refrigerant....................................30
Oil & filter......................................20
Coolant.........................................20
Gray RTV.......................................18

Total........................................$1833

Here's the valve spring compressor and adapter I used:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001o.jpg

vincentm
05-22-12, 01:26 PM
Bill, have you thought of servicing the transaxle now that you have it out?

bill buttermore
05-22-12, 02:05 PM
Bill, have you thought of servicing the transaxle now that you have it out?I had thought about it earlier, but I must admit, I am not thinking about it now. I'm not sure I want to think about spending any more money at the moment. My investment already exceeds market value, not counting labor, and this was never meant to be a restoration project.

rodnok01
05-22-12, 04:19 PM
I have not. I'm not sure I want to think about spending any more money at the moment. My investment already exceeds market value, not counting labor, and this was never meant to be a restoration project.

Your gonna have to keep it for quite awhile to get your money back outta it, seems like you've almost ran across a worse case senario unfortunately.

bill buttermore
05-22-12, 06:13 PM
Can't believe the turnaround I am getting at Midwest Cylinder Head. The head whose gasket was leaking only needed .003 removed to clean up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005m.jpg

The Left side, however, needed .007 shaved. This tells me I need to get a longer straightedge for these bigger heads.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003o.jpg

Pretty, aren't they?

----------


Your gonna have to keep it for quite awhile to get your money back outta it, seems like you've almost ran across a worse case senario unfortunately.Actually, I figure it's not nearly as bad as it might have been. The heads were not warped, the cams were in good shape, the chain tensioners were not worn. The pistons, rings, and rods were all good. Valve guides were okay. The big extra costs on this job came from me not checking the length of the studs before I loctited 'em - that was about $200 all tolled - and the purchase/rent of specialty tools - another $200. If a fellow were able to just replace the head gaskets without any shop work, and you already had the tooling, you might get away with $1000 out-of pocket. I've spent less than $200 on shop work, but I know I will have perfectly flat sealing surfaces. I don't doubt that this engine would have run smoothly on the old exhaust valves, but not at peak efficiency - they were surely leaking. If I hadn't pulled the valves to look (and spent another $200 to replace them and the seals) I wouldn't have ended up with as good an engine. I shouldn't have whined about spending the money. It's all good.

RippyPartsDept
05-22-12, 06:17 PM
just think of all the money in labor that you've saved being able to do it yourself

bill buttermore
05-22-12, 06:26 PM
just think of all the money in labor that you've saved being able to do it yourself That's for sure. So far - let's figure I have spent 3 hours a day on average working on this project. That's probably an underestimate....but say 3hrs x 40 days = 120 hours. Now, you have to consider that I am nowhere near as fast as a mechanic in a Cadillac garage - not even half-fast, in fact. ;) Say it takes me three times as long to get something done. So, we have the equivalent (to date) of about 40 hours of shop time. Well, heck, you can see why people sell the car for $1000.

RippyPartsDept
05-22-12, 06:36 PM
the book time is ridiculous on this job... something towards 30 hours i think
our guy takes two days to do it so we charge about 16 hours of labor
at normal shop rate that's about $1600 ... plus the approximately $1000 in parts makes it about $2600

i think they usually verbally quote at $2800 when someone asks...

as far as I know that's about the lowest price for one of these jobs at a dealership

...

that said, you're doing a much more thorough job than we would ... which is another reason to DIY - to make sure everything you want done is done
i'm not saying that we cut corners - if you bring your car in to us for a head gasket/bolt issue we're going to fix it
but at that price we're not going to do all this extra thorough work that you're doing to yours to make sure everything is perfect

bill buttermore
05-22-12, 07:42 PM
...i think they usually verbally quote at $2800 when someone asks....
Chris, would that have been the quote at your dealership to do the head gaskets and to split the crankcase to seal the leak? My crankcase seal was definitely leaking.

RippyPartsDept
05-22-12, 09:56 PM
I don't know off the top of my head but it would be more. I can check tomorrow. You save a lot of labor doing them together since the R&R of the cradle is shared between the jobs.

I don't remember how badly your case leak was but a lot of people reseal when they probably don't need to.

In your case with a DIY situation there's really no reason not to though.

bill buttermore
05-23-12, 01:23 PM
Before I lose them, let me record here some of the measurements I made while drilling and tapping the block:

Drill size - 17/32
Drill collar set so that hole extends (full width) 68mm below deck (surface of engine block)
Tap size - 5/8" x 11 three flute plug tap
Tap marked so that last full thread is formed no deeper than 50mm below deck
Alignment bolts for original holes (11mm x 1.5) extend 52mm below deck
Alignment bolts for new holes (5/8" x 11) extend 32mm below deck


Today I purchased a KD tool that is supposed to work to install the keepers on smaller valves. It is supposed to work on stems down to 4.5mm, the N* is 5.9mm. Problem is, it won't get here for at least a week. Here is the link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/390391664573?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

bill buttermore
05-23-12, 05:49 PM
Spent a couple of hours working on the bolts and holes for the main bearings. Cleaned off the oil, wire brushed the threads -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006m.jpg

Then ran a 10 x 1.5 die down the threads by hand and wire brushed again. Takes a while to do 20 like that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008m.jpg

Thought about running a 10 x 1.5 bottoming tap down the holes in the block, but didn't want to remove even a little bit of metal. So, I cleaned the holes with brake parts cleaner and compressed air, then ran a cleaned, chased bolt down each hole. Back and forth - more hole cleaning and blowing until I could run any bolt down any hole past where it needs to go just using fingers. Don't want any surprises when I go to torque in the main bearing plate. Main bearings, crank and pistons are next.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007m.jpg

bill buttermore
05-24-12, 02:01 PM
So, the plan is to install the crank and pistons with the new main bearing top halves, then dis-assemble back down to the block for the re-sealing work leaving the crank in place. Working in the most critical part of the engine, everything needs to be kept as clean as possible. I like to use coffee filters instead of "lint-free" rags, because I have never been able to find "lint-free" rags.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001q.jpg

I blew out all the oil passages on the crank with compressed air, wiped each journal with a new filter, inserted the new main bearing top halves into the block, lubricated them with clean 10-30 oil, and gently placed the crank in.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003p.jpg

I don't like any dust to fall on these critical parts, so I keep everything covered with newspaper when I am not working on them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002q.jpg

I wanted the block upright to install the pistons, but could not do that without temporarily installing the bottom half of the crankcase. I installed the manifold and used big washers with the bearing bolts to take up the space of the scraper, whose presence would have blocked access to the rod bolts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000004q.jpg

I had not intended to measure bearing clearance, but after installing the #1 piston, the rod moved very easily side to side on the journal. Think I'll go get some plastigage. I will plan to use the old connecting rod bolts for the plastigage work, then do the final install with the new bolts. Well, all but #1, where I did use new bolts thinking I would not be measuring clearance.

bill buttermore
05-24-12, 04:57 PM
#2 rod bearing measured 0.0015 clearance with plastigage. Gee, these journals are in great shape. The rods easily move back and forth with so little clearance. I think I'll check just one bearing on each shared journal. If the other three are okay, I will probably leave #1 alone.

Faded Crest
05-24-12, 05:05 PM
^^^ I agree. It sounds like you are in real good shape.

bill buttermore
05-24-12, 11:44 PM
Saw Steve's ARP tapered ring compressor - had to have one. Pistons go in so easy, it is hard to believe. I wish I had known about these tools years ago. $60, but it costs a lot more when an oil control ring pops out as you're tapping in the piston with a conventional ring compressor. Ask me how I know...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006n.jpg

There was just a teensy little bit more clearance on the #3 rod bearing, but it felt about the same as #1, so I don't think I will disturb those only-torqued-once bolts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009k.jpg

Installed the four pistons I had ready to go. The next four will take a lot longer - I still have to clean the pistons and grooves on those.

Faded Crest
05-24-12, 11:58 PM
Got a good used lifter coming your way Bill. Much better than that one you had pictured. Don't worry, I have already picked out my 32... This really is an extra. :thumbsup: Oh, and it's wrapped in newspaper just the way you like it. :lol:

I wonder if it causes excessive cam lobe wear when they get worn down on the surface like yours was. I had a couple like that and they are definitely rough feeling when you run your finger over them.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/102_0909.jpg

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 01:34 AM
Got a good used lifter coming your way Bill. Much better than that one you had pictured. Don't worry, I have already picked out my 32... This really is an extra. :thumbsup: Oh, and it's wrapped in newspaper just the way you like it. :lol:

I wonder if it causes excessive cam lobe wear when they get worn down on the surface like yours was. I had a couple like that and they are definitely rough feeling when you run your finger over them.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/102_0909.jpg

Sweet! Thank you so much, Marc. With any luck, my valves, lifter, and keeper tool will all arrive on the same day! Hopefully by then, I'll have the bottom end done!

I think you must be right about the rough surface scrubbing down the cam lobes. If so, replacing any lifters that are starting to go should prolong cam life. I like the additive package in Rotella oil for anti-scuffing. But with the new bearings, I don't want to use 15W-40. I use it in most of my other high mileage cars, though. I'll have to see if I can find Rotella in 10w-30.

Faded Crest
05-25-12, 01:46 AM
^^^ They do offer 10w30 Rotella. I just saw some at Car Quest the other day. :thumbsup:

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 01:49 AM
^^^ They do offer 10w30 Rotella. I just saw some at Car Quest the other day. :thumbsup: Excellent!

RippyPartsDept
05-25-12, 09:56 AM
yeah, i've been doing my last few oil changes with rotella 10w30

Faded Crest
05-25-12, 10:52 AM
Bill, where did you get the ring compressor sleeve tool? Gotta have one of those!

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 11:25 AM
Bill, where did you get the ring compressor sleeve tool? Gotta have one of those!I found it on ebay, but I can not find it currently listed. The vendor is performance-r-us out of Miami. Here is the saved page:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150484444534?item=150484444534&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

This listing looks current, but it's $5 more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-00mm-ARP-Tapered-Ring-Compressors-/330726174677?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item4d00d0efd5&vxp=mtr

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 12:46 PM
Suffered a little setback today. Dropped a piston/rod on the concrete floor of my itty bitty garage and put a nice dent in the top edge. (Sigh!) I thought I might be able to file out the dent, but after thinking about it and how much time and money I have invested in this engine, I have determined that I will just replace the rod and piston. For all I know, there could be a crack that I can't see that will cause the piston to disintegrate catastrophically, or some distortion to the rod that would cause premature wear. Does anyone know what year piston/rod are the same? Will a piston and rod from a 1996 VIN 9 engine interchange with my 1998 VIN Y?

Submariner409
05-25-12, 01:25 PM
Bill, If the "dent' is a flattened space on the edge of the piston crown (1/4" - 3/8" max flattened length) you can probably get away with a bit of judicious fine filing, BUT roll a compression ring around in that section of the top ring groove - ANY binding and the piston is toast.

The new Cadillac replacement pistons have a redesign skirt and anti-scuff coating.

IF...........and it's a big IF - you can find a good used piston/rod, try to get the same numbered cylinder as the damaged one - the running stresses will have been the same.................



Bill, where did you get the ring compressor sleeve tool? Gotta have one of those!

Try the Performance Automotive Warehouse site/catalog. Their goodies catalog is as big as a NYC telephone book................so big that you need surfing time..........

www.pawinc.com (http://www.pawinc.com)

ternstes
05-25-12, 01:32 PM
I would think all pistons are the same 93-99 model years. I can give you a piston and rod out of a 99 VIN 9 engine if you like.

Faded Crest
05-25-12, 01:53 PM
Bill you have had some kind of luck! I applaud your tenacity and the way you keep positive in spite of all the setbacks.

You might want to contact 89falcon... He has a whole set of pistons leftover from a job. Real nice guy and I know he'd be glad to help you out if he can.

89falcon
05-25-12, 02:16 PM
Bill you have had some kind of luck! I applaud your tenacity and the way you keep positive in spite of all the setbacks.

You might want to contact 89falcon... He has a whole set of pistons leftover from a job. Real nice guy and I know he'd be glad to help you out if he can.

Nope....I have 7 good pistons and 8 good rods....some dumba$$ (me) wasn't careful when he was removing the pistons, and dropped one on the concrete floor....breaking a piece off one of the skirts......ouch! That's one of the reasons I didn't build it as a spare after I swapped in the salvage motor...plus my kids have so destroyed my trusty old friend that I won't be replacing the motor again.

so that's an open offer for you or anyone else......97 STS: 8 rods, 7 pistons, 2 good exhaust cams (good for the 9 AND the Y), two heads of questionable condition (200K miles...) probably around 25 good lifters....8 injectors...plus pretty much every other engine part except block and valve covers. Also have a 97 Y tranny......plus both headlights, and some front suspension pieces...and a complete 97 SLS PCM......just haven't been able to bring myself to just throw it away. Free to anyone here on the forum.....you just cover the shipping......as is where is. No warranties! :thumbsup:

If anyone is in Colorado, they can make it easy....just come pick pretty much ALL of it up....my wife would be VERY appreciative!

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 03:07 PM
I would think all pistons are the same 93-99 model years. I can give you a piston and rod out of a 99 VIN 9 engine if you like.Wow! Thanks - that would be great. I'll send you a PM.

Faded Crest
05-25-12, 03:13 PM
^^^ Howdy Roger! He just needs to replace the one piston, so sounds like it would be just what he needs.[COLOR="Silver"]

----------

Didn't even see your post, Ternstes... Well just like when I thought I needed another crankshaft, the good folks on the forum are lining up to help! :D

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 04:01 PM
The support from this community is just incredible! :bows: The smartest thing I have done on this job was to start this thread, and get to know you all. Earlier this morning, I had asked Chris from Rippy to check compatibility of a rod and piston that was available on ebay. He just confirmed that the part numbers for the rod and piston are the same on a 96 seville VIN 9 and my 98 Deville VIN Y. Thanks Chris! I bought that one just now for $33! So, I will hopefully not need Ternstes or 89 Falcon to go to any trouble on my behalf.

Ternstes, please disregard PM.

Here is the piston and rod that I dropped after filing out the worst of it - dent is at 6 O'Clock:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/IM000004r.jpg

The dent on the edge of the crown is a lot bigger than 3/8"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/IM000001r.jpg

The side clearance on the top ring is unchanged at about .002" The ring slides freely.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/IM000008o.jpg

You can see the mark on the rod where the piston skirt hit. My electronic calipers do not show that the skirt bent out. It seems to measure the same from skirt to skirt as the other pistons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/IM000002r.jpg

I don't see any cracks, but who knows? When the replacement arrives, will compare its weight to the average of mine before installing. Don't want to create a problem.

Again, thanks to all of you for coming so quickly to my aid. What a great forum!

----------


...some dumba$$ (me) wasn't careful when he was removing the pistons, and dropped one on the concrete floor.... Can't imagine how that could happen. :rolleyes:

Submariner409
05-25-12, 05:22 PM
Replace the piston.

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 05:44 PM
Replace the piston. Thanks for the advice. Replacement is on the way.:)

vincentm
05-25-12, 05:47 PM
Nope....I have 7 good pistons and 8 good rods....some dumba$$ (me) wasn't careful when he was removing the pistons, and dropped one on the concrete floor....breaking a piece off one of the skirts......ouch! That's one of the reasons I didn't build it as a spare after I swapped in the salvage motor...plus my kids have so destroyed my trusty old friend that I won't be replacing the motor again.

so that's an open offer for you or anyone else......97 STS: 8 rods, 7 pistons, 2 good exhaust cams (good for the 9 AND the Y), two heads of questionable condition (200K miles...) probably around 25 good lifters....8 injectors...plus pretty much every other engine part except block and valve covers. Also have a 97 Y tranny......plus both headlights, and some front suspension pieces...and a complete 97 SLS PCM......just haven't been able to bring myself to just throw it away. Free to anyone here on the forum.....you just cover the shipping......as is where is. No warranties! :thumbsup:

If anyone is in Colorado, they can make it easy....just come pick pretty much ALL of it up....my wife would be VERY appreciative!


I'll take a powder coated thermostat housing :thumbsup:...just saying

JoeTahoe
05-25-12, 06:29 PM
Boy Bill you shure have had a time With this rebuild, I will give you alot of credit most people would be at the end of their rope by now. But keep your head up!!!

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 07:52 PM
Boy Bill you shure have had a time With this rebuild, I will give you alot of credit most people would be at the end of their rope by now. But keep your head up!!! I'm still havin' fun learning about this engine. We have a daily driver, and a truck, so there is no pressure to get this done in a hurry. And a good thing too! I've only really had three setbacks, as I see it, and they were all my fault. Loctiting before measuring, cracking the trans dowel housing, and dropping a piston. I'm gonna look at it this way - three mistakes / 40 days. And two of them were educational - not likely to happen again. The next time I do this, it won't likely take as long, or cost as much, and I won't be likely to make the same mistakes. I'll hang that piston up on the rafter in my garage to remind me to be a little more careful. It's all good.

89falcon
05-25-12, 08:20 PM
I'll take a powder coated thermostat housing :thumbsup:...just saying

Leaving town for 4 days, let me see what I can do when I get back....:)

vincentm
05-25-12, 09:28 PM
Leaving town for 4 days, let me see what I can do when I get back....:)

Sweet, thanks Roger!

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 10:39 PM
Thought I would document piston cleaning. I use my wire brush wheel very gently to remove carbon from the outside of the piston. I use a 24 tooth per inch hacksaw blade to carefully remove carbon from the grooves without scratching the base or side of the groove. The pile of carbon below came from those three grooves.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001s.jpg

The low tension rings are easy to remove by hand without damage. I mark the top ring up side with one dot, the second ring carries it's own mark on the up side and is grooved on the bottom side, the oil rings carbon dots are removed with a new straightedge razor blade. Oil ring top sides are marked with 3 and 4 dots and the expander goes in techron to soak. The expander is then carefully brushed with a brass bristle toothbrush.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003r.jpg

Oh yeah, while you are taking great care not to put the slightest scratch into the grooves or the surface of the piston, you might also want to make sure you don't drop the piston and connecting rod onto the concrete floor. Just sayin'......

Faded Crest
05-25-12, 10:46 PM
You make me feel like I'm cutting corners, Bill... :)

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 11:09 PM
You make me feel like I'm cutting corners, Bill... :)I would never have pulled them if I hadn't had to take the block over to be surfaced. I would have been happy just cleaning the tops. All the rings were free when I removed them - they would have been fine for a long time. But, once they were out, I couldn't hardly put them back in without cleaning them, could I?

BTW, 16 new exhaust valves came today, so I suppose I can start lapping them in. No rest for the wicked.

Faded Crest
05-25-12, 11:11 PM
LOL, well one bruised piston doesn't seem to be stopping your progress. BTW, lifter went out today by US mail, so be on the lookout.

bill buttermore
05-25-12, 11:15 PM
LOL, well one bruised piston doesn't seem to be stopping your progress. BTW, lifter went out today by US mail, so be on the lookout.Thanks, Marc. I'll try not to drop it when it arrives.

bill buttermore
05-26-12, 11:32 PM
Woot! :banana: My KD valve tool (KD 419101) came in the mail this afternoon six days earlier than expected! Bought it on ebay here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KD-Tools-Valve-Keeper-Remover-Installer-4-5mm-7-5mm-419101-/390391664573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae5280fbd

As of now, it shows there are only 8 left. For those of you who have struggled as I have with small valves recessed into lifter bores, re-installing those little keepers with a conventional-style valve spring compressor is a nightmare. I cannot believe how easily this simple tool installs those little monsters. Click on the image below to watch a video showing how it works:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar%20videos/th_Valvetool.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar%20videos/?action=view&current=Valvetool.mp4)

Faded Crest
05-26-12, 11:58 PM
Incredible. Now I need one of those, too!

rodnok01
05-27-12, 07:26 PM
Great vid Bill, I would have not believed it unless I saw it. Are you sure it ain't against the law being that easy :thepan:
Def gonna pick on of those up.

I WANNA-V
05-28-12, 06:28 PM
Awesome videos Mr Buttermore. Keep up the good work!

JoeTahoe
05-28-12, 06:56 PM
thats a very nice cheap tool, Alot quicker than the way i have been doing them

bill buttermore
05-29-12, 12:26 PM
I installed two springs in the wrong positions, and needed to remove the springs to correct the mistake. I used the new tool by pulling out the installer, and simply pushing down on the retainer with the valve supported from below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009l.jpg

The valve stem pushes into the core of the tool where a strong magnet captures one or both of the keepers. It is just as easy to remove a valve as it is to install one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007p.jpg

I remembered that when I removed the cylinder heads from the engine, I placed one of the heads on the bench with the sealing surface down. When I picked it back up, I noticed two of the intake valves were open. It is possible that enough force could have been applied to bend one or two of those valves. So, as I re-assemble the heads, I am checking each intake valve to make sure they spin flat and true in their seats by applying the valve lapping handle and spinning the valve before attaching the spring and retainer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003s.jpg

The new tool is so fast that my coffee did not have time to get cold by the time I had installed all the valves in this head.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001t.jpg

I will wait to install the camshafts until the heads are installed on the block. This will minimize the possibility of any damage to the valves during handling. If I had thought of it, I would have removed the cams before removing the heads for the same reason.

bill buttermore
05-29-12, 11:14 PM
This is gettin' a little spooky. I ran out of parts this afternoon about 3PM, and figured I would just have to wait for the replacement piston and rod before I could continue engine assembly work. It arrived about 7PM this evening, just after the lifter from Marc was delivered.

Thank you, Marc!

So, it looks like we will be finishing up the bottom end before too much longer.

Defective parts on left - replacement parts on right:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000013f.jpg

Faded Crest
05-29-12, 11:39 PM
You're very welcome! Glad things are falling into place for you. You're on a roll!... But I must say, your old piston is prettier. :rolleyes:

bill buttermore
05-29-12, 11:47 PM
...But I must say, your old piston is prettier. :rolleyes:Well, at least no one dropped that one on the floor! Anyway, wait 'til you see it tomorrow....

tateos
05-30-12, 11:00 PM
Lot's of nice pics and a fine video Bill - good job so far!

Richard Moore

bill buttermore
05-31-12, 02:14 AM
Lot's of nice pics and a fine video Bill - good job so far!

Richard Moore Thanks, Richard. Now we're gettin' to the fun part.

Cleaned up the "new" piston, but used the rings from the "old" piston. Checked the weight of piston and rod to make double sure I was dealing with the same parts. Old piston and rod weighed 1208 grams....New piston and rod weighed 1206 grams - close enough for me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal105.jpg

Here are a few pix to document piston installation. Clean bearing bores - wipe new bearings with coffee filter - engage tang, then push other side in and down. Make sure shell is seated squarely and all the way down. Set ring gaps per FSM, oil rings and cylinder wall with motor oil.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal108.jpg

Spin crankshaft so journal is down out of the way of the rod being installed - spray the journal with cheap oil to remove any dust particles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal110.jpg

On the first few pistons, I used a rag around the big end of the rod, then a plastic protector, but a rubber band would work better - the larger stuff gets stuck on the counterweights. Drop the rod through the compressor, feed it into the top of the bore - make sure the piston is straight - then push in gently with your thumbs...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal112.jpg

Make sure the arrow on the piston head is pointing to the front of the engine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal113.jpg

I slowly turn the engine over (to prevent the big end of the rod from banging around) then use a piece of heavy solid copper ground wire to help guide the rod in place while pushing the piston up with the other hand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal114.jpg

With the bearing not quite engaged, I add clean motor oil, then gently push the rod onto the journal, apply the cap and torque the bolts to spec. I did re-use the bolts for #4. They had stretched one tenth of a millimeter from sixty some mm original length. The old bolts were a different style head and were not comparable in length to the new bolts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal115.jpg

And now, the moment I had been a bit anxious about....the reseal.....I found 9.5 oz of ultimate grey RTV silicone in a pressurized tube for $19 - seemed like a good idea...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal103.jpg

I thought the consistency was a little lighter than the regular tubes as if the propellant had bubbled up in the sealant. It took a little while to figure out how to get the size bead I wanted. The top bead in the photo was my first attempt. There was plenty of sealant in the tube - way more than I needed. I could have practiced for a foot or so.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal118.jpg

The new bottom halves of the main bearings were installed - sealing surfaces cleaned and all fasteners oiled and laid out prior to applying any sealant. Right before installing the lower case half, I poured some motor oil onto the main journals, set the case on the pins and tapped the crankcase half in place gently with a rubber mallet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal120.jpg

Next, the Victor Reinz manifold was prepared with a bead of sealant around the outer edge. In preliminary dry-fitting, I learned (as the prominently displayed note that came with the manifold note warned) that one or both locating pins might have to be removed from the plate to match perfectly with the crankcase. I needed to remove them both.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal121.jpg

You don't really need the pins, I just lined it up, set it down and installed the bolts. As I went along, I used thin screwdrivers to make sure the oil drainback holes as well as the bolt holes for the oil pan were clear of sealant.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal122.jpg

Finally, the scraper is laid on, and the twenty big bolts installed. I should have another photo here, but did not want to give the sealant any more time than it already had to set up. Torqued the bolts to spec then torqued the outer eight bolts on the crankcase. It must have been 15 minutes from the time I placed the first bead until I got the last bolts torqued. Hope it doesn't leak.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal123.jpg

The pressure is off once the crankcase bolts are snug. You can take your time with the pan. Same procedure.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/caseseal124.jpg

Next up - cylinder heads...

bill buttermore
05-31-12, 10:48 AM
Just an observation before I forget. I had carefully cleaned the threads and bolts for the main bearings and made note that when initially undoing them, I had heard a double snap on almost every bolt. There was a suggestion that the original bolts had dry threadlock and that the sound was from the bond breaking. But.....when I undid the main bearing bolts for the re-seal - the same ones I had cleaned and oiled and tightened to spec to install pistons, they all came undone with the same double snap sound. I know there was no threadlock on those bolts. Just sayin' - must be just the way they come undone.

ternstes
05-31-12, 11:34 AM
Nice job, bill! Did you use the permatex ultra grey for the oil pan seal as well?

I do not believe there is any factory threadlocker on the main bearing bolts.

bill buttermore
05-31-12, 01:39 PM
Nice job, bill! Did you use the permatex ultra grey for the oil pan seal as well?

I do not believe there is any factory threadlocker on the main bearing bolts.

Yeah, I used it for the pan, too. Couldn't be any oilier than the manifold plate. Had plenty left. Kinda wish I had used regular tubes. The only problem with that is that it would have taken a lot longer to apply it.

There isn't any threadlocker on my main bearing bolts now, either.

bill buttermore
05-31-12, 03:39 PM
Here's how we started off today - things goin' well - gonna' get those heads installed.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000027b.jpg

now we'll need to unwrap that shim and coat it with the copper spray.....when what to our bloodshot eyes should appear....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000030a.jpg

but a shim that won't shim either now or next year....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000033a.jpg

Yeah, well the cylinder head would have lasted about 5 minutes without any coolant to two of the cylinders, not to mention that the holes for #5 and #7 bores don't line up. I only looked to see if the shim was bent when it arrived - who'd a thought it would be mis-cut? Another lesson for me. Check your parts carefully when they arrive. If I had, I wouldn't be looking at a three or maybe five day vacation from this job.

I suppose I could try to find some other tasks to do while I wait for shim #3, like flushing the coolant from the heater core and radiator - replacing the sway bar end links and frame bushings, and cleaning up the cam covers and other (still grimy) parts. Ah well....

rodnok01
05-31-12, 08:32 PM
Ain't that a b***h. That would have sucked if you didn't catch it. Looking good so far, you need a photgrapher to keep up with you :)
I've had parts I forgot to check that looked fine until they wouldn't bolt up, what's a few mm's diff, bahh.

Faded Crest
06-01-12, 01:47 AM
Bummer. :(

Faded Crest
06-01-12, 11:06 AM
Bill, did you de-glaze the cylinder walls with something like a tree brush before re-installing the pistons? Or is that not recommended?

89falcon
06-01-12, 11:41 AM
Here's how we started off today - things goin' well - gonna' get those heads installed.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000027b.jpg

now we'll need to unwrap that shim and coat it with the copper spray.....when what to our bloodshot eyes should appear....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000030a.jpg

but a shim that won't shim either now or next year....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000033a.jpg

Yeah, well the cylinder head would have lasted about 5 minutes without any coolant to two of the cylinders, not to mention that the holes for #5 and #7 bores don't line up. I only looked to see if the shim was bent when it arrived - who'd a thought it would be mis-cut? Another lesson for me. Check your parts carefully when they arrive. If I had, I wouldn't be looking at a three or maybe five day vacation from this job.

I suppose I could try to find some other tasks to do while I wait for shim #3, like flushing the coolant from the heater core and radiator - replacing the sway bar end links and frame bushings, and cleaning up the cam covers and other (still grimy) parts. Ah well....

Call COMETIC.......get a MLS gasket in the thickness you need.....done by people who make gaskets every day... you've spent WAY too much time to have one jacked up part ruin the whole thing!

bill buttermore
06-01-12, 12:23 PM
Bill, did you de-glaze the cylinder walls with something like a tree brush before re-installing the pistons? Or is that not recommended?I know the cylinders look glazed in the pix, but that's because I oiled them pretty heavily before installing the pistons. The factory crosshatching was still quite apparent (and presumably effective) in providing oil for the rings, and remember, I measured ring end gap to be acceptable and re-used the same rings in the same cylinders, so there should be no ring seat-in issues.

----------


Call COMETIC.......get a MLS gasket in the thickness you need.....done by people who make gaskets every day... you've spent WAY too much time to have one jacked up part ruin the whole thing!Can't argue with the "spent too much" part - but this mis-cut mistake is the only error this manufacturer has made, the bent one (which was perfectly cut) was UPS' fault. No way I will install anything but a perfect shim on that block. That .020 shim when they get it right and delivered to me flat will bring that side within .004" of perfect. And, let's not forget - it's paid for. I have no reason to believe the shim and a Fel-Pro graphite HG won't do a good job. For a Cometic special MLS, I'm probably looking at another $200. I can find something else to do for a few days while I wait.

89falcon
06-01-12, 03:02 PM
I know the cylinders look glazed in the pix, but that's because I oiled them pretty heavily before installing the pistons. The factory crosshatching was still quite apparent (and presumably effective) in providing oil for the rings, and remember, I measured ring end gap to be acceptable and re-used the same rings in the same cylinders, so there should be no ring seat-in issues.

----------

Can't argue with the "spent too much" part - but this mis-cut mistake is the only error this manufacturer has made, the bent one (which was perfectly cut) was UPS' fault. No way I will install anything but a perfect shim on that block. That .020 shim when they get it right and delivered to me flat will bring that side within .004" of perfect. And, let's not forget - it's paid for. I have no reason to believe the shim and a Fel-Pro graphite HG won't do a good job. For a Cometic special MLS, I'm probably looking at another $200. I can find something else to do for a few days while I wait.

Honestly, I'd be very concerned about the non-gasket side of the shim.....if you're just spraying it with copper spray.....weakest link....if it will hold on one side, it will hold on the other.....so why not get a thicker shim and not even bother with the gasket......

bill buttermore
06-01-12, 03:15 PM
Honestly, I'd be very concerned about the non-gasket side of the shim.....if you're just spraying it with copper spray.....weakest link....if it will hold on one side, it will hold on the other.....so why not get a thicker shim and not even bother with the gasket......As I understand it, the gasket and the shim serve different purposes. All the shim has to do is extend the height of the deck up a little bit. I'm only adding the shim to maintain valve timing accuracy. I have used shims before and the makers all recommend (require) that a gasket spray be used to ensure a good seal between the shim and the block. I don't doubt that will be okay. The gasket itself has to do a lot more - fire rings crush around the cylinder bores to seal, graphite provides a seal under great pressure but allows some movement and more that I haven't learned about yet. The MLS gasket uses a flexible coating on steel to provide a seal between the steel and aluminum of both the block and head - seems similar to gasket spray on a shim to me.

I did take your advice and called Cometic. The price for sizes other than standard is only about $12 per gasket over the standard MLS gasket price of $129. The normal thickness of a standard crushed gasket on this engine is .066. On the right side, I am down .004 on the head and .020 on the block, needing to make up .024. They can sell me an .089 MLS gasket which will bring me within .001 of new spec for about $140 plus shipping. If I were to do the other side with a Cometic MLS gasket, the first oversize available is .003 under, the next .002 over. For both, about $300 with shipping and about a week turnaround. When I described my plan for using regular gaskets with a shim, the guy did not advise against or have an opinion of why it might be a bad idea. Maybe he was not familiar with shims?

I like the idea of the MLS gaskets, but I already have purchased the shim for $50, and the gaskets for another $50. If there is a reason to believe that the shim will fail, then it may be worth another $300 to go Cometic. Thing is, I have not had a bad experience with shims in the past (knock wood!), and don't know what is different in this case.

bill buttermore
06-01-12, 04:29 PM
I have some questions about the rear seal. Does anyone know what the outside of the new-style GM cartridge seal looks like? Any pix? I am wondering if the GM seal's outer diameter, where it mates to the aluminum block is some sort of resilient material like the old lip seals, or if it is metal with a seal coat?

I wanted to replace the high quality GM lip seal that had not failed on mine with the same type of seal because I have not purchased and would like to avoid purchasing the $75 goop spreader that is needed for the new GM seal. However, I cannot find a source for that old high quality 12mm thick lip seal. All I can find now are the thinner 9mm lip seals that were made for the earlier N* engines. That brings us to the Fel-Pro cartridge seal. I know those are not recommended but I bought one to see how they were made. They have a coated metal inside diameter made to press and seal onto the crankshaft, and the outer diameter is a rubbery material similar to the lip seal that was OE for this '98. I don't know whether the Fel-Pro seal is meant to use the sealant around the outer edge, but it kinda' looks like it is just a press in. I do have the heavy press capable of pressing in the new GM seal. I have set it up on the crank, and it would seem that it could be used to press in any type of seal.

The Fel-Pro seal comes with no instructions for installation. If anyone knows what they recommend, that would be helpful, too.

Faded Crest
06-01-12, 05:20 PM
Look what Bill had sent to me today... Thanks Bill! Very nice gesture. Between this and the greasy old extra lifter I sent you I think I got the better deal! :D Only problem is my wife claimed it as soon as I opened the box! :doh:

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/102_0927.jpg

eyewonder
06-01-12, 05:24 PM
Bill,

I had both the newest GM rear seal, and one from a Victor gasket set. I choose to use the GM seal, based on comments from Jake, & Chris @ Rippy, their opinion being that the GM was more reliable/robust, etc. Before I installed the GM, the only difference appeared to be the outer diameter of the inner steel sleeve(?) that bonded to the crankshaft. The GM version fit the seal installation tool as expected - the Victor did not. Both appeared to have a non-metalic surface that made contact with the Aluminum block - that was where the RTV was applied.

I still have the Victor seal at home, as well as the original seal I pulled out. I will check after work, and if there is any new info, I will post back.

Cheers,
Steve

tateos
06-01-12, 05:55 PM
Bill - if your original rear main seal was a lip seal and did not leak, that, as far as I know, is previously unheard of. I might be exaggerating a little...but not by much. Older half case seals do not all leak, and when they do, not always enough to be a concern, but I thought just about all of the old style rear seals eventually leaked, some very badly. I would never go through what you have done, and not replace the rear seal with the new cartridge style seal. You mentioned that the Fel-Pro rear seal is not recommended; I recall reading something from Jake awhile back about Fel-Pro, but they have always been my first choice for gaskets, and I didn't know that it was now accepted fact that the Fel-Pro rear seal is NG

Richard Moore

bill buttermore
06-01-12, 06:23 PM
That Fel-Pro cartridge seal is a big seller according to Rock Auto. I couldn't speak to how often they fail. Jake, I believe, is the one who said they were no good. But one must presume they are better than a lip seal. As I cannot find a new OEM-quality lip seal similar to the one that was in mine, and as I already have have the installation tool, all I really need to know is whether I have to buy the additional sealant spreader and special GM sealant to install the Fel-Pro seal. Fel-Pro seems to be no help at all re customer service or even information on their products (?)

If I have to have the special spreader tool and sealant for the Fel-Pro seal, I will return the Fel-Pro seal, and the 9mm National lip seal I purchased from RockAuto, and install a genuine GM seal. I kinda find it hard to imagine that everyone who installs a Fel-Pro seal uses the sealant spreader.
----------


Look what Bill had sent to me today... Thanks Bill! Very nice gesture. Between this and the greasy old extra lifter I sent you I think I got the better deal! :D Only problem is my wife claimed it as soon as I opened the box! :doh: You are most welcome, sir.

bill buttermore
06-02-12, 08:54 AM
My daughter has solved the problem of what I will be doing until shim #3 arrives. I will be repairing the brakes and AC on her Volvo.

ternstes
06-02-12, 09:11 AM
I have used the fel-pro seal on the two engines I have completed thus far. My friend's 97 STS has been running for a year with no oil leaks. He had the old lip seal that was leaking quite a lot. I would not have a problem using a fel-pro seal again... For what it's worth. I repaired a 2000 STS and swapped out the gm seal for another fel-pro while I was in there.

ternstes
06-02-12, 09:17 AM
I did not use the sealant spreader either on either repair. What is the purpose of putting a sealant ring behind the rear main seal? The only leak points are the case splits and the crankshaft flange which is sealed by the rear main seal.

bill buttermore
06-02-12, 10:19 AM
I did not use the sealant spreader either on either repair. What is the purpose of putting a sealant ring behind the rear main seal? The only leak points are the case splits and the crankshaft flange which is sealed by the rear main seal.Thanks for the feedback.

bill buttermore
06-03-12, 09:20 PM
Questions for Ternstes or others who have pressed in the Fel-Pro cartridge rear main seal.

I have a different seal tool than pictured in threads I have seen on this site and elsewhere and I am wondering whether the mating surface of my J-42842 tool is the same as the J-45930.

This is the Fel-Pro seal, BS40670:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000039.jpg

This is the tool I bought to press in the rear seal, J-42842:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000017b.jpg

My question is whether the distance between the part of the tool that bears on the rubber coated outer diameter of the seal and the part of the tool that bears on the sealant coated metal center ring is identical on the tool you all have and the tool I have. On my tool, the recess in the face of the tool is about 2.4mm lower than the raised ring:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000052.jpg

When you place the Fel-Pro seal on the face of the tool, the raised ring on the tool contacts the outer part of the seal that will be pressed into the engine block. The recessed area presses the center part of the seal onto the crank. I'm guessing this is how it would look when set up to install (the pilot is already attached to the crank):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000040.jpg

What has me concerned is how well (or poorly) the seal fits this tool. When I place the seal onto the face of the tool as shown above and push both the outside and the center sections down so they contact the tool, this is what the seal looks like:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000041.jpg

It doesn't look like a good fit to me. Do I have this backwards, or am I doing something wrong? The other thing that has me concerned is the pilot part of the tool. The larger diameter of the pilot closest to the crank looks like it will smear off all the sealant before it gets to the crank. I figure I only have one chance to get this right or I have to buy yet another (seal removal) tool.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002-1.jpg

rodnok01
06-03-12, 11:18 PM
Don't know if this'll help ya or not but had alot of info
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/117232-case-halves-reseal-fwd-rtv-sealant.html

Faded Crest
06-03-12, 11:55 PM
Half way down post #5 in this thread tool J-42842 is mentioned. It is said that J-42842 is for earlier style seals, which I have to assume means 1996+ since tool #J 38817-A is the very early seal install tool ('93-early '96).

And I know you saw this on your listing when you bought the seal, which is the same one I bought...


Tool Number: J-42842
Tool Name: REAR CRANKSHAFT OIL SEAL INSTALLER
Applications: 98 1/2 INTRIGUE

3.5L and 4.0L/4.6L (1996.5 & LATER) The rear seal is press fit to both the engine block and crankshaft. Fit of inner/outer seal bodies is critical and any misalignment can result in leakage. J 42842 is a 2 piece tool that mounts to the crankshaft and forces on both inner and outer seal bodies. Place the new seal on the inner body of J 42842 then mount to crankshaft. Turn the forcing screw on the tool to press the seal until it bottoms on the block. NOTICE: This tool applies to the 1996.5 and later 4.0L/4.6L which uses a different style seal than earlier engines.

----------

And this is interesting, too. It shows tool J-42842 installing a seal in a 2001 Seville...

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/JHoop/2010-03-27_070846_1.pdf

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 12:21 AM
Don't know if this'll help ya or not but had alot of info
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/117232-case-halves-reseal-fwd-rtv-sealant.html Thanks. That did help. I had read that thread earlier, but had not remembered that the seal is mounted to the pilot. It seems when I tried that with the Fel-Pro seal, it did not want to fit over the crank end of the pilot part of the tool. I'll go out to the garage and try again.....

----------

Half way down post #5 in this thread tool J-42842 is mentioned. It is said that J-42842 is for earlier style seals, which I have to assume means 1996+ since tool #J 38817-A is the very early seal install tool ('93-early '96).

And I know you saw this on your listing when you bought the seal, which is the same one I bought...


----------

And this is interesting, too. It shows tool J-42842 installing a seal in a 2001 Seville...

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/JHoop/2010-03-27_070846_1.pdf

Thanks, Marc. That is the first description I had seen for how the 42842 tool is used. I bookmarked it. Notice - no sealant on the OD, but engine oil! Cowabunga! Every tool and seal seems to have its own procedure. This is a little confusing.

Sure enough...the crank end of the pilot fits right into the center part of the Fel-Pro seal. But it appears that the three little screws will end up pressing the seal most of the way in. That doesn't seem right. And while we're on the subject - the rubber seal turns really tightly against the metal sleeve. Seems like it wouldn't hurt to put the tiniest bit of oil on the outside of the ID. Not where the sealant touches the crank, but just where the rubber runs against the metal.

I may just have to buy a genuine GM seal to see what, if any differences there are. I'll bet the inner shoulder is set deeper on the OEM seal. Re oil or sealant, seems like we could use some rtv silicone instead of oil to lubricate and simultaneously seal the OD of the seal that presses into the block. If a fellow just wiped that OD with a thin coating of rtv silicone, most of it would end up scraped off when the seal was pressed in. With just the slightest bit of care, I don't think there would be any chance of blocking the drain hole.

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 01:03 AM
Here you go... The official info and part number for the seal that works with the tool you have...



Cadillac and Oldsmobile: 1996-99 models with 4.0L and 4.6L engine, VIN C, Y, 9 Subject: A new rear main seal with a metal flange has been released to replace the original rubber lip seal. The new seal, P/N 12556107 must be installed with a new tool, Kent Moore J42842. If the old Kent Moore installation tool is used to install the new-type seal, the seal will be damaged and probably leak. The bulletin includes illustrations of the old and new seals and tools. Bulletin 00-06-01-005

I also read in another forum that the correct seal is green.



I have resealed the LLC in doing so the rear seal falls out so I bought a new one, the old one doesn't appear to be bad but for the low price of a new seal one was ordered. Today I went to install it and they are quite different. The new seal is on the right with the green ring(see Picture) it is GM part # 12556107. The green ring is a metal band, the old one is all rubber.

Did I get the right part? I thought at first this was some sort of protective cover for shipping but it doesn't come off.

This is for a 97 Northstar if you have replaced your seal with one of these or know why they went to this OEM replacement please pass it on.

Thank you,
Julio
Yes, you did get the right one. This is the new style seal for that year. By the way, do not attempt to install it without the correct tool, or you will be in for
a world of hurt. There is a special tool that you "must" use for this seal. The seal is pressed onto the crankshaft. Special tool number is J42842.
The changeup occured in the 96 year I believe, and we have used this new seal in pretty much every Northstar that we work on. The only change since, has come in 2003. Now the seal is a blue color, and there is a different "special" installer for that particular seal. I do not know what the difference is between the older green colored seal and the new blue colored seal. Perhaps Bill could comment on that.

----------

I'm thinking this might be the exact seal that matches the tool based on the cross reference number and the fact that it's green...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKF-37775-Seal-Crankshaft-/110887114706?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d16317d2&vxp=mtr#ht_987wt_952

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 01:45 AM
^^^^^Aha! Suspicions (maybe) confirmed. Maybe the color-coding is the key to it all? The tool we have, 42842, must be for the first generation of new seals - maybe all of those were green. That ebay link shows fitment from 98-02 on the deville 4.6 N*. And, perhaps the Fel-Pro (blue) is designed to work with the newer tool. I think Steve has the newer tool. I wonder if Ternstes does too? He has successfully installed the Fel-Pro seals.

Could this be more complicated? Here's a funny note - just a couple of days ago, in a moment of weakness, I ordered a sealant spreader tool. Now, it looks as though I won't need it. And, that it is not designed to work with the press I have anyway. Sheesh!

Great research, Marc. Sure glad I have you guys to help me out on this stuff. :) Did you notice there are only two of those cheap (?) $31 seals available?

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 02:07 AM
^^^ Yes, I did notice that there were just 2 left... LOL. I'm going to run over tomorrow to see what color my new one is... But if memory serves, I think it's blue... And it is GM as I got it from Chris at Rippy.

I believe Ternstes does have the newer installer like Steve. I saw his Kent Moore tool part # in his '97 Seville thread. And I think you are right about the green seals being the first design of the newer seal ('96.5+)

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 02:28 AM
Looks like the blue seal fits the new tool, and as you identified, the green seal fits our older press. We probably could not get a seal from GM anyway - I'll bet they have replaced the green ones with the blue ones. I've been doing a little research on skf37775. A lot of people sell 'em for less than $30. Apparently it is used for a bunch of applications besides the N* and there are plenty of 'em out there. And, it looks like we don't need the sealant spreader. Good on us! Let's see - return the Fel-Pro = $18, return the 9mm National = $15, sell the spreader ~$50, I'll have enough $ to buy 4 green seals.

Did you notice on your ebay link for the green seal, you can do a photo magnify? I saw no shoulder at all - that makes sense - the seal needs to slip onto the pilot end so that the heavy press can do the work, not those little screws.

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 02:31 AM
Cool... Glad we figured that out. Here's more confirmation. Have a look at post #26 by AJ...

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/118095-rear-main-seal-2.html

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 02:46 AM
Now our mission is to find the lowest price for an SKF37775 delivered to our door. Although, I may be willing to pay $1 more to receive one before I forget where I put the rest of the engine parts.

ternstes
06-04-12, 07:14 AM
Bill, I can loan you my rear main seal installer tool. Mine looks different from yours. The outer edge of the installer tool should contact the edge around the rear main seal area. This is to ensure the seal is pressed on to the correct depth on the flange.

ternstes
06-04-12, 07:19 AM
I think the difference in installer tools occurs with the 04 or 05 Northstar. It has been a while since I looked into the tool differences, but the installer tool for our year range is j-45930.

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 10:26 AM
Ternstes, thanks for the generous loan offer, and thanks for confirming that the tool mating surfaces are different. That tells me that I should not attempt to install the Fel-Pro blue-center seal with my press. But, before I take you up on your offer, I want to see if I can make the J-42824 tool work. I think you must have the newer tool. It appears that GM changed the seal design and the tool design as the years went on. The most recent tool and seal for the Cadillac N* seems to be the one you and Steve have - J-45930 or J-45930-A with the bigger bolts. Those tools work with the cartridge seals with blue colored IDs that are available everywhere. The older J-42824 tool should work on any N* with the smaller flex-plate bolts and a 12mm seal depth. We just need to find the correct seal for that tool. We think that seal is SKF 37775, with a green colored ID.

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 11:36 AM
It's crazy that this information is so difficult to gather. :hmm:

Here is the SKF37775 seal for $19.52...

http://www.jbr17llc.com/skf-37775.html[COLOR="Silver"]

Here it is for $19.30...

http://www.esells.com/ecitemlist11.asp?CO=AP&CMD=RET&txtItemID=SKF-37775

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 12:05 PM
It's crazy that this information is so difficult to gather. :hmm:

Here is the SKF37775 seal for $19.52...

http://www.jbr17llc.com/skf-37775.html[COLOR="Silver"]


Here it is for $19.30...

http://www.esells.com/ecitemlist11.asp?CO=AP&CMD=RET&txtItemID=SKF-37775


Hmmm....looks like we better jump on the e-bay items before they are gone. I have spoken with both of the vendors you linked above - Neither has SKF 37775 in stock. Both will send you an SKF 37507 instead which their computers tell them is the new number for the "same" seal. But we know it is not the same seal. According to one vendor who called SKF for me, SKF no longer makes nor has any stock of 37775. That number is superceded by 37507. You can take a look at SKF 37507 on ebay - blue center. Our only hope appears to be old stock. I just hope we don't run into the same problem on the ebay products. If so, we will have some pretty fancy doorstops. Option 2 would be to machine our press faces to fit the new style seals.

Edit: It also occurred to me that we may be able to use our presses with a simple shim to install the new Fel-Pro seal. I think all we need is something like a big washer that fits on the center piece of the seal.

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 12:32 PM
Well before I saw your edit, I got spooked into grabbing one of the green seals on ebay. :ohnoes: If you try to make some kind of adapter I would be curious how well it works. Without having examined the tool and the blue seals during this discussion I am not real clear on what you mean.

eyewonder
06-04-12, 12:42 PM
I have the J-45930-A (the outer part of the two-part seal) tool, and have used it to install a GM seal in a 2000 N*.

The seal that came with the Victor Reinz gasket set would NOT sit in the installer as you would expect, but the GM did.

Here are two drawings of the tool, based on my best caliper measurements. Look at the drawing, and your seal, to visualize how the tool presses in the seal.

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 01:10 PM
I have the J-45930-A (the outer part of the two-part seal) tool, and have used it to install a GM seal in a 2000 N*.

The seal that came with the Victor Reinz gasket set would NOT sit in the installer as you would expect, but the GM did.

Here are two drawings of the tool, based on my best caliper measurements. Look at the drawing, and your seal, to visualize how the tool presses in the seal.Thanks, Steve. I have printed both your drawings. I will store them with the tool. As Marc did, I purchased the other remaining old style green seal. With any luck, these will work with our presses for the current job. To gain further benefit from the tool, we will probably need to modify or adapt them according to your drawings. Thank you very much for taking time to do this.

Marc, I called the NJ vendor on ebay and had him look in the box to make sure the seal was green - it was.

----------


Well before I saw your edit, I got spooked into grabbing one of the green seals on ebay. :ohnoes: If you try to make some kind of adapter I would be curious how well it works. Without having examined the tool and the blue seals during this discussion I am not real clear on what you mean.I will hold on to the Fel-Pro blue seal; when the green seal arrives, I will be able to compare. With that and Steve's drawings, we should be able to figure out how to make our presses work with the new style seals.

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 01:22 PM
^^^ Good thinking. Maybe we got the last two on earth. LOL. That is a big relief. Hope there is a way to make an adapter or like you said, we got some fancy doorstops... Or I could send you mine and you would have a couple of expensive bookends.

There might be a way to make an adapter. You got to figure that even if there was, Kent Moore would rather just sell all the dealerships new tools for the new style (blue) seals.

----------


I have the J-45930-A (the outer part of the two-part seal) tool, and have used it to install a GM seal in a 2000 N*.

The seal that came with the Victor Reinz gasket set would NOT sit in the installer as you would expect, but the GM did.

Makes me wonder if your seal with work with our tool. What color is it?[COLOR="Silver"]

eyewonder
06-04-12, 01:53 PM
Makes me wonder if your seal with work with our tool. What color is it?[COLOR="Silver"]

I'll check on the color of the Victor seal after work, and then post.

Cheers,
Steve

----------

I'll check on the color of the Victor seal after work, and then post.

I make the assumption that what we see as colored on the inside of the metal portion of the cartridge seal is just some form of sealant used to ensure that oil does not migrate between the crank, and the seal. If that's the case, the color -MAY- just be the color of the sealant used, and not really indicative of anything more.

And of course, this would not be the first time 'I was mis-informed'.

Cheers,
Steve

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 02:01 PM
In my research last night, I found a thread that came out around the time that GM introduced the newest seal. AJ (a Cadillac super-mechanic) said the new ones were blue while the old ones were green so a distinction could be made between them.

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 02:24 PM
I just made some measurements with my HF electronic caliper and I don't understand how my press is gonna work. Here's why. The outside diameter of the pilot for the press measures about 3.795". The ID of the Fel-Pro seal measures 3.767. The outside diameter of the crank measures 3.777. So, to load the seal onto the pilot would require stretching the seal ID nearly .030". Then, to seal onto the crank, it needs to shrink back .010. Can that be right?

Steve, while you are checking other things, could you please measure the outside diameter of the pilot of your press?

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 02:51 PM
I came over to where I am working on the car and have the tool (J42842). The brand new blue GM seal appears to match my tool just fine!... Unless I am missing something. :hmm:

eyewonder
06-04-12, 03:15 PM
I just checked the Victor-Reinz seal, that I did not use. It has a blue-green coating on the inside. The original seal that I took out looks to be the same color, and dimensions.

I measured the Victor seal, drew it up, and put it on the following drawing so that you can see why I did not like it.

The cartridge seals (including the Victor I did not use) are two parts, with some axial movement allowed between them. Which means that BOTH the inner metal & outer rubber portion have to be pressed onto the crank . Both must be supported/pushed in equally. Which would NOT have occured with the tool I have.

Look close at right side of the drawing, where I show how the seal is NOT nesting into the steps, like it should. If I had used that combination, ALL the force would be pushing ONLY the inner sleeve, most likely damaging the seal. Which would be a bummer.

Cheers,
Steve

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 04:06 PM
Here are a couple pics of the blue GM seal... P/N 12568025 on Kent Moore tool #J42842. It appears that it lines up perfectly. The cut of this tool will allow the blue inner part to be pressed in at the same time as the outside rubber body of the seal. So Steve, it sounds like this tool would fit your Victor seal. Boy, never was my signature quote more apropos.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/IMG00234-20120604-1538.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/thejumpsuitman/IMG00235-20120604-1539.jpg

eyewonder
06-04-12, 04:11 PM
Your numbers are not that far from mine. The inner pilot on the J45930 tool has a very small step. The seal is dropped onto the inner pilot, and the step keeps it from going too far back. As far as I can see, the only purpose of the inner part of the seal tool is to keep the seal concentric with the crank, so that the outer part doesn't get the seal started in crooked.

Here is another pdf with dimensions.

Cheers,
Steve

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 04:27 PM
Steve, I talked to Bill on the phone and it seems his tool is not made correctly or it has an incorrect pilot as there are some differences in the measurements between his and mine in spite of the fact that the tool # is the same. I'm sure he will follow up with a more detailed explanation.

Thankfully I was able to cancel my ebay order for the new green seal before it shipped. Guess I should have checked my own tool fit first.

eyewonder
06-04-12, 04:31 PM
Wow, nothing like a LOT of possibilities for confusion here. It looks like either of the seals, new-blue-GM, or older blue-green, would go in the same engine.

Looking at the pictures of your tool, I see that there is a relatively narrow ring that actually presses against the rubber portion, forcing it into the aluminum bore of the block. BUT, I don't see anything that stops the seal from being pushed further into the bore (deeper that flush).

Looking at the tool I have, the step that drives the rubber portion of the seal is recessed from the main body. That outer portion comes up flush against the block, preventing the seal from going flush with the block - it is even out a small amount. Which sorta makes sense, as you would not want to drive the seal too deep into the block, possibly distorting it.

BTW, I can't check the color of my seal, as the flywheel is now mounted, but I do recall the GM seal being a different color, and blue sounds good.

Cheers,
Steve

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 04:42 PM
Perhaps the step that assures the correct depth is the biggest difference between the tools. I suppose I will have to stop and check a couple times to make sure it doesn't sink too deep.

Can you imagine the frustration in trying of find a seal that fits an incorrectly made too not even knowing something was made wrong? :banghead: Good thing mine was the same # so we could compare.

----------

Bill, here is a link to the thread about my side project that has kept me away from the head gasket job for a while...

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/258438-ever-heard-kind-failure.html

And here is the other story I was telling you about my "parts car"...

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/261363-thinking-about-fixing-car-1999-eldorado.html

Now you know why I have been on hiatus. :lol:

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 05:38 PM
Yeah, after talking with Marc on the phone and comparing our "identical" tools, I believe I have found my problem. My pilot needs to be turned to eliminate the shoulder that you see in the photo posted on p. 25. Steve, if you have time, could you please check the diameter of your pilot right where it bolts to the crank? I will probably want to have the shop match that diameter. Whew! Not easy - not cheap!

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 05:41 PM
I keep thinking about that tool of yours, Bill... I bet I know what happened. A dealership probably had a number of Kent Moore RMS tools that looked similar and a couple of them got left apart and paired up incorrectly when the stuff got auctioned off. So there's probably some other poor guy out there with the opposite problem that you have.

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 05:44 PM
^^^^^Well, at least mine can be turned down to the correct size - the other guy would have a bigger problem.

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 06:59 PM
Your numbers are not that far from mine. The inner pilot on the J45930 tool has a very small step. The seal is dropped onto the inner pilot, and the step keeps it from going too far back. As far as I can see, the only purpose of the inner part of the seal tool is to keep the seal concentric with the crank, so that the outer part doesn't get the seal started in crooked.

Here is another pdf with dimensions.

Cheers,
Steve

Thanks, Steve. Sure enough, for some weird reason, my pilot is just the opposite of yours - 3.76 on the inside and 3.79 next to the crank where the seal is supposed to fit. Go figure. My figures scrawled beside the pilot are: 3.777 crank OD, 3.795 pilot OD , 3.767 seal ID

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001a-1.jpg

Faded Crest
06-04-12, 07:32 PM
That's crazy. Your ridge steps down to a smaller size as you go down the pilot while mine steps up to a larger size. Now I understand what you were telling me on the phone about there being no stop for the seal. It's almost as if it was made backwards.

bill buttermore
06-04-12, 11:42 PM
That's crazy. Your ridge steps down to a smaller size as you go down the pilot while mine steps up to a larger size. Now I understand what you were telling me on the phone about there being no stop for the seal. It's almost as if it was made backwards.Exactly. That's why I wondered if I had installed it backwards, but that is the only way it can attach to the crank. At first I thought I could just have a machinist turn the crank end of the pilot to the same diameter as the rest of it, then I realized that without that larger diameter on the pilot, the press will be sloppy and maybe difficult to center. This upset me a bit until I thought of a solution. I could have the shop cut two o-ring grooves in the part of the pilot that the press rides on. I only need to increase the diameter .030, so the right choice of o-rings should snug up the tool and make it functional. I will call the vendor tomorrow and explain my concerns, even though I am way past the 15 -day return period.

Edit: I just realized, an easier way might be to have just the first 11mm of the pilot's crank end turned down to 3.760. That would leave a ring about 5mm wide of the larger 3.795 diameter to stop the seal and to help center the press on the pilot. The seals are 12mm thick and the chamfer on the end of the crank is about 2mm, so the seal should load up okay.

Faded Crest
06-05-12, 01:46 AM
^^^ That should work. :thumbsup: Are they going to charge you much to do that? I would ask the ebay seller to give you a partial refund to pay for the machining. The tool is no good the way it is and it. Technically you could still file a dispute to get your money back, regardless of their own policy. Not that you would, but it would be within your rights as a protected ebay buyer with a legitimate beef. I think it's worth a shot.

bill buttermore
06-05-12, 10:33 PM
The vendor that sold me the seal tool on e-bay, Smitty's Corner Store out of Pennsylvania, was cooperative and willing to stand behind his sale. He offered to give me a full refund, or work with me in any way that would solve the problem. I took the pilot to the machine shop this afternoon and got an estimate of $30 to turn down the crank end far enough to install a seal. As soon as I informed Smitty, my PayPal account was refunded $30. Can't ask for better customer service. Wish all vendors acted like Smitty. He gets a big thumb's up from me! :thumbsup:

Meanwhile, I finished the brakes and AC on the daughter's Volvo, and shim #3 arrived in apparently good condition. That figures as the engine is now off the stand and blocked up on the floor for seal installation. Shop says maybe I will have the pilot for the seal tool back tomorrow.

rodnok01
06-05-12, 11:14 PM
Wow, great service from that ebay seller... I'll repeat it, a NOOB would be SOL on your build not being able to catch all the issues.

Faded Crest
06-06-12, 01:05 AM
That would have been a real tough nut to crack without the comparison. I guess you would have just had to carry the block to the dealership and let them sock it to you. Glad it worked out. I figured the seller would help.

bill buttermore
06-06-12, 01:27 AM
That would have been a real tough nut to crack without the comparison. I guess you would have just had to carry the block to the dealership and let them sock it to you. Glad it worked out. I figured the seller would help.You are right. Thanks for providing that comparison, Marc!

Faded Crest
06-06-12, 01:35 AM
Least I could do since I detoured you from the one you were going to buy... :hide:

bill buttermore
06-06-12, 05:33 PM
Finally moving in the right direction again. Got the pilot back from Jim Howe's shop. $37.50 to make this doorstop functional. They do nice work.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002b-2.jpg

The moment of truth......Yes! the seal slips right on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003-1.jpg

Sits just about flush with the face

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005-2.jpg

I had e-mailed Fel-Pro asking what they recommended for installation of their seal BS40670 The reply was to coat the outer edge of the seal with Loctite 518, and press it in as others have described here. Permatex' equivalent product is 51813

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006-2.jpg

I cleaned oil off of everything, seal inner and outer from handling, crank and block cavity, and the seal pilot and press. I loaded the seal onto the pilot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009-3.jpg

Then screwed the pilot to the crankshaft

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000010-2.jpg

Took some of the anaerobic sealant and smeared it onto the outer edge of the seal

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011-3.jpg

Slipped the press over the pilot, installed the big bolt and washer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000012-1.jpg

And turned it right in with a 24mm socket and short handle

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000014-1.jpg

Just cranked it until I felt an obvious increase in resistance which put the press about here

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000015-2.jpg

Removed the tool and voila! Cleaned up the excess sealant with a finger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000016-2.jpg

The outer seal body is a little recessed while the inner metal sleeve sits flush or slightly out from the block. Looks like there will be plenty of room for the flex plate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000017-2.jpg

After all the fiddling around, it probably took 5 minutes to install the seal. I'm thinking the next time this will go a little more quickly. I paid $7.50 more than I was reimbursed for the machine work, but saved $15 on the tool in the first place. So - $7.50 ahead - yipee! Now, finally - the cylinder heads....

eyewonder
06-06-12, 08:58 PM
Bill,

I have a theory ...

The tool that I have used will press the seal into the block/around the crank until the tool's largest diameter contacts the block. That is how the depth of the seal is established. Looking at the profile of the tool, it shows that the metal inner sleeve of the seal should be outside the block surface. And it is, on my engine.

Looking at your installed seal, it also is outside the block surface, just like mine. But looking at your press tool (not the pilot) it had appeared to me that the inner drive ridge (which contacts the rubber seal) would drive the seal too deep, before the outer diameter of the tool got stopped by hitting the block. That is, IF the outer tool was supposed to be stopped by hitting the block. My assumption at this point is that your tool does not get stopped by hitting the block, but that the reverse step on the pilot is actually what stops the outer part of the seal, and thus establishes the seal depth in the block.

So, there you have my THEORY on how your tool works.

Cheers,
Steve

bill buttermore
06-06-12, 09:32 PM
Now that the rear main seal is installed, it's back up on the stand. Studs are installed with just a thin layer of residual oil - no threadlock - no sealer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001c-1.jpg

Carefully cleaned the deck with brake parts cleaner, cleaned the studs, and the threads. Didn't want any crud falling down on the sealing surfaces

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002c-2.jpg

Shim #3, cut properly and shipped flat, cleaned both sides then the block side sprayed with Permatex copper gasket spray

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003a-1.jpg

Shim teased into place on block, carefully tapped flat around all the studs and alignment pegs, then the top surface cleaned again with brake parts cleaner. Now we are ready for the head gasket

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006a-2.jpg

Head gasket dropped in place

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007a-3.jpg

cylinder head sealing surface cleaned with brake parts cleaner, all lint and particles removed, air blown to remove any loose debris as the head must be tapped into place on the studs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008a-2.jpg

Head tapped carefully into place. Stud threads brushed and vacuumed to remove any debris

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009a-2.jpg

Heavy washers go sharp edge down. Washers and nuts get a drop or two of 70 weight oil.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000010a-2.jpg

FSM shows tightening sequence, I numbered the studs with a marker directly on head so as not to lose track, Stud directions provide torque specs. three passes -30-65-75 ft-lb. I added two preliminary tightenings 5ft-lb and tap, tap, tap, then 15 ft-lb, and tap, tap, tap

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011a-2.jpg

Used a thin-wall 3/8" drive 18mm six-point deep socket for the nuts. Just barely fit in the tight quarters. The three little 6mm bolts on the front of the head only get 106 in-lb. My center bolt stopped smoothly gaining torque at about 95 in-lb so I stopped there. One done - one to go

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000012a-2.jpg

----------


Bill,

I have a theory ...

The tool that I have used will press the seal into the block/around the crank until the tool's largest diameter contacts the block. That is how the depth of the seal is established. Looking at the profile of the tool, it shows that the metal inner sleeve of the seal should be outside the block surface. And it is, on my engine.

Looking at your installed seal, it also is outside the block surface, just like mine. But looking at your press tool (not the pilot) it had appeared to me that the inner drive ridge (which contacts the rubber seal) would drive the seal too deep, before the outer diameter of the tool got stopped by hitting the block. That is, IF the outer tool was supposed to be stopped by hitting the block. My assumption at this point is that your tool does not get stopped by hitting the block, but that the reverse step on the pilot is actually what stops the outer part of the seal, and thus establishes the seal depth in the block.

So, there you have my THEORY on how your tool works.

Cheers,
SteveSounds good to me. I don't have a theory at all. :) But now that you have caused me to consider it, I think it is the outer rubber coated ring bottoming against the base of the bore that stops the tool. It is pressed by the raised ridge on my tool. There is a little resilience there as the outer bottoms, so the center metal sleeve gets pressed in a little farther than I thought it would be. The instructions just said to stop when you feel the seal hit bottom, and that's what I did. Sounds vague, but it is not that hard in practice. I did use a smaller lever arm, which would reduce the likelihood of over-pressing and maybe distorting the seal. The whole process was much easier than I imagined and I was pleased with the result. Now, let's hope it doesn't leak!

tateos
06-06-12, 09:56 PM
A few comments:

The installer tool I sold to Steve came with 2 sets of 3 installer bolts of different sizes - I think the earlier design was a little smaller than the later design.

The seal that came in my Fel-Pro gasket kit was green, and seemed to work perfectly with the tool that Steve now has - both purchased at the same time...about 4 years ago.

I didn't apply RTV inside the cavity - I recall that my reasoning was that I didn't need to, since didn't tear my block down - only removed the heads and oilpan. I seem to recall that I thought that there would be a good reason to apply sealer if the crankcase halfs were separated.

Richard Moore

bill buttermore
06-06-12, 11:11 PM
^^^^^ I know for a while, the recommendation was to install the seal by oiling the outer diameter, I guess to make it slide in more easily. But the next generation used the sealant, presumably to add another barrier to leakage and maybe to prevent the outer from wanting to spin (?) I thought Fel-Pro's suggestion was a good one as the 518 sealant acts as a lube for installation and as a seal when it sets up.

I think Marc and I have determined that the green center was the first generation cartridge seal. My tool and Marc's are first generation presses for the cartridge seal. You have proven that the newer press works with the older (green center) seal. I have shown that the older press works with the newer (Fel-Pro) blue seal. More than one way to skin this cat.

bill buttermore
06-07-12, 08:57 PM
Left cylinder head installed. Just like the right but without the shim.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002d-2.jpg

Starting to look like a V8 again...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001d-2.jpg

rodnok01
06-07-12, 09:53 PM
looking good... bet it felt good to get those suckers back on and bolted down.

bill buttermore
06-07-12, 10:03 PM
looking good... bet it felt good to get those suckers back on and bolted down.Yes it did. Still have a long way to go, but it is good to have come far enough along to have finally fixed the original problem of leaking head gaskets.

bill buttermore
06-08-12, 04:03 PM
I got out my pre-lubricator - a small (new) garden sprayer half full of new 5w-30 oil. Punched an undersize hole in a plastic plug with a gasket hole punch and forced the wand through the hole in the plug. Inserted this into the output bore from the oil pump and...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002e-2.jpg

...pumped up the sprayer to provide a few psi of pressure.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003b-2.jpg

As oil started pouring onto the floor, I was reminded that I would need to install the oil filter adapter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001e-2.jpg

While I was in the neighborhood, I installed the crank sensors.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006b-2.jpg

A little more oil under pressure and it began to flow out the passages that lead to the tensioner and the cylinder heads.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000004b.jpg

Now I felt comfortable to spin the crank a few times as I figured the crank journals were well lubricated

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005b-2.jpg

Blew out the oil passages from the block to the heads

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007b-2.jpg

Removed the plugs (T-30) from the oil passages in the heads. Blew out the passages and looked down the bores. Don't want stuff plugging up the lifters.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008b-2.jpg

Installing lifters. Helps to have everything labeled. Of course, you have to find where you put the bags....Cleaned each lifter with a coffee filter then oiled the valve stem mating surface and bottom skirt of each lifter with 70 weight oil

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009b-2.jpg

I am planning to try to pump the lifters back up (at least partway) by immersing in oil and pumping the lifter. Have any of you tried this, or maybe know a better way?

MRneatfreak-
06-09-12, 01:05 AM
Yes I have tried pumping up the the hydraulic lifters before on both a 350 diesel and an old 170cu inch straight six. Not sure if it was successful as I don't recall ever having any problems afterwards. I think the main dilemma is not to have them operating dry when things start moving again after a period of sitting and maybe upside down. I think the problem with this theory of pumping them up is that they all are not supposed to have "pressure" in them all at the same time as they would be in different stages of compression and empty through the use of normal engine operation.

I guess I would just lubricate them well but don't pump'em full of fluid? But what do I know. I am at build zero under my belt on the N star.

bill buttermore
06-09-12, 01:50 AM
^^^^^^ I noticed that some of the lifters had leaked out a good bit of oil. I think you are probably right that those were stored upside down. I made no effort to keep them upright, just placed them in plastic bags and stored those in a plastic tub. Maybe next time, I'll make an effort to keep them right-side-up. I think the ones that have lost oil and gotten "soft" will tap on start-up until enough oil can get into them under pressure to firm them back up. I have had rebuilt engines take as long as 30 minutes for the lifters to quiet down. I would like to avoid that. I submerged one of the soft ones in oil (upside down) and pressed down repeatedly on the lifter where the valve stem contacts. With each depression, a bubble or two would escape from the hole in the oil ring. After 3 or 4 minutes, the lifter had gotten a little more firm, and no more bubbles came out.

I don't want to pump the lifters up until there is no pre-load, but I don't think that will be a problem as I am unable to get them to be anywhere near as firm as the ones that did not leak any oil while stored. And pre-load should not be a problem for any but the one lifter I replaced as they all went back where they had been. And for the new exhaust valves, I expect those will all be sitting farther down in the head owing to no wear on the valve face - that should mean that those lifters will be starting out a little loose.

I will do what I know how to make sure everything is well lubricated before start-up. I usually try to manually operate the oil pump until I see oil make it to the lifters, then when the engine is installed, I will probably spin it a bit with the starter while the ignition and fuel pump are disabled and the plugs are pulled.

Edit: I was just wondering if storing lifters on their side with the little hole upright might minimize leakage?

bill buttermore
06-09-12, 05:58 PM
Turns out there were only about 8 of 32 lifters that had leaked down. I filled a small cereal bowl with 5w-30 oil and submerged the lifter face down in the oil. Pumped the lifter with my finger until bubbles stopped coming out of the little hole. The lifter is still soft at this point but it least it has some oil and should not take as long to pump up when the engine is fired up. With the lifters installed, I set the cams in place. I put a big cable tie down the #1 cylinder to make absolutely sure #1 piston was at true top dead center.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007c-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008c-2.jpg

This is an interference engine, so I did not want to install the cams until I was sure the valves would not strike anything. The pin on the front end of each cam should be at 12:00 when piston #1 is at TDC, but in some cases, I retarded the cams from that position somewhat, to make them lay flatter in the bearing saddles to facilitate installation of the bearing caps. I took notice of the cam lobes and took a peek down the plug holes to make sure the piston was out of the way so there would not be any unpleasant surprises when the cam was rotated back to 12:00. I used 70-weight motor oil on the cam bearings and torqued the first several cap bolts using the angle torque of 30 degrees following 44 inch-pounds. I noticed on the torque wrench that the final torque was consistently 7.5 ft-lb (90 inch-pounds), so I just torqued them all to 45 in-lb then to 7.5 ft-lb.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000004c-2.jpg

I installed the oil gallery plugs with Permatex thread sealant

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001f-1.jpg

I don't remember an o-ring or gasket on the spindle for the intermediate sprocket. I hope it doesn't need one!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005c-2.jpg

Next the intermediate gear set is installed so the marks line up with #1 at TDC

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006c-2.jpg

For now, the cam sprocket bolts are just finger-tight

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003c-2.jpg

Maybe get some more done after dinner.

bill buttermore
06-10-12, 01:42 AM
Note: Left refers to the Left side of the engine viewed from the driver's side. So, for all these views from the passenger's side of the engine, you will see all the Left side stuff on the Right side of the photos.

The Factory Service Manual kinda falls short on installing the chains. It pictures the wrong tensioner, omits installation of the R side tensioner guide, and fails to mention which side of the chains needs to be kept tight to get the alignment right. The FSM also suggests you install the plugs on the heads before you have checked to make sure the timing is correct. That makes no sense. It is really important to have marked the chains, tensioners, guides and sprockets clearly and carefully and maybe even redundantly when tearing the engine down. It paid off big-time for me tonight.

Primary chain tensioner installed but retracted and held with pin. Primary chain guide installed. Intermediate sprocket bolt installed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001g-2.jpg

Oil pump drive bushing goes on the crank

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003d-2.jpg

FSM was helpful for installing the oil pump. Keep upward pressure on pump while tightening bolts - interesting - also showed bottom left, bottom right, top left tightening sequence. You have to peek behind the pump now to make sure you are at TDC on the crank. Installed oil pump with no o-ring even though the intake port appears to have an o-ring groove.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005d-2.jpg

Left guides and chain is first on. Just undid the bolts on the cam sprockets to ease installation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006d-1.jpg

Right chain goes on last.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007d-2.jpg

Then all the tensioners. Took me two tries to get it right because I wasn't sure which side of the chain needed to be taut with the cams in proper position. This image shows that you want the top side of the Right chain and the bottom side of the Left chain taut before releasing the tensioner pins.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008d-2.jpg

After releasing the tensioners, and spinning 14 revolutions, we were right back where we should be.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009c-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000010c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011c-1.jpg

Poured about a gallon of cheap oil in the pan through the front opening beside the oil pump. I will use it to try to prime the oil gallery.

vincentm
06-10-12, 02:32 AM
Beautiful work, beautiful photos. Thanks for sharing this experience with us. Overall, given that you've had a few set backs throughout this endeavour. Would you do it again?

bill buttermore
06-10-12, 10:00 AM
Beautiful work, beautiful photos. Thanks for sharing this experience with us. Overall, given that you've had a few set backs throughout this endeavour. Would you do it again?Thank you for the kind words. And sure, I'd do another one, but not right away. I think it will probably take a good while to find another candidate in as good condition. And, I have a honey-do list a mile long that has been largely ignored during this process. I don't think I have had any setbacks that were not caused by my own ignorance or carelessness. Anyway, it was meant to be a learning experience, and it has certainly been a memorable one. I have greatly benefited from the expertise and advice on this wonderful forum. It would have been more difficult, more expensive, and not nearly as much fun without the help I have received here. So, thanks to you all. :cheers:

Speaking of expertise....can anyone confirm that neither the intermediate shaft nor the oil pump are installed with an o-ring or gasket?

eyewonder
06-10-12, 10:11 AM
Speaking of expertise....can anyone confirm that neither the intermediate shaft nor the oil pump are installed with an o-ring or gasket?

Bill, I used the FSM for my reassembly, and it did not mention O-rings for either pump or intermediate shaft. So mine engine did not get any O-rings in those locations.

Cheers,
Steve

bill buttermore
06-10-12, 10:35 AM
^^^^Thanks for the confirmation, Steve. I'm using a FSM also, and I won't say that I don't trust it, but I know they are not always perfect. :rolleyes:

Submariner409
06-10-12, 03:59 PM
Look at it this way: The "tight" side of the chain "pulls" the cam/intermediate sprocket in order to do work. The non-effort side of the chain is the tensioner/slack side.

Did you pack the oil pump gerotor with petroleum jelly to insure initial pump prime ?

bill buttermore
06-10-12, 06:05 PM
Look at it this way: The "tight" side of the chain "pulls" the cam/intermediate sprocket in order to do work. The non-effort side of the chain is the tensioner/slack side.Yeah, it did become obvious when I had it all back together and in-time. But, in the confusion of the moment, it wasn't all that obvious with three chains all hanging slack. I suppose if I had just looked at the intermediate sprocket and thought about which way the chains would be pulled, I could have figured it out....but I didn't.


Did you pack the oil pump gerotor with petroleum jelly to insure initial pump prime ?I have never been comfortable doing that. Don't know why....guess I just didn't like the idea of pumping the grease (I know, it dissolves in the oil) into the filter. I have always tried to prime the oiling system with oil by cranking by hand or with a powerful drill. Most times, it works. Sometimes not.

I will have a chance to reconsider this however, as I will be removing the oil pump to install the oil pump inlet tube O-ring that came in the front cover gasket set. I am pretty sure there was no o-ring when I removed the pump, but what if it fell into the pan under the baffle? Anyway, Fel-Pro provided one, and I intend to install it. May help in the hand priming operation, too. Hard to see, but it is the first item listed Quantity 1) Oil Pump Inlet Tube. Unless they mean the one in the pan, but I don't think so, as that strainer tube has its own seal as part of the manifold plate, and the o-ring provided looks like it will fit the pump groove.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000016b-2.jpg

I bought these to do the rear wheel bearings on a Subaru Outback. They sure make changing a cover seal a lot easier.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000012c-1.jpg

Out with the old

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000013c-1.jpg

In with the new

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000019-3.jpg

eyewonder
06-10-12, 06:40 PM
I will have a chance to reconsider this however, as I will be removing the oil pump to install the oil pump inlet tube O-ring that came in the front cover gasket set.

Bill,

As best I remember, there were no grooves in the oil pump, or the block that would accept an O-ring. Just nicely machined flat surfaces that in effect sealed the pump housing to the block when the pump housing was cinched up.

The oil pump inlet tube is what we attach to the oil manifold distribution plate, and the one main stud that holds the pickup in place.

At least that's what I hope, as I don't want to have to pull it out again.

Cheers,
Steve

bill buttermore
06-10-12, 07:38 PM
Bill,

As best I remember, there were no grooves in the oil pump, or the block that would accept an O-ring. Just nicely machined flat surfaces that in effect sealed the pump housing to the block when the pump housing was cinched up.

The oil pump inlet tube is what we attach to the oil manifold distribution plate, and the one main stud that holds the pickup in place.

At least that's what I hope, as I don't want to have to pull it out again.

Cheers,
SteveI'm sure mine has an o-ring groove. Well, it has a groove - and I will soon find whether the Fel-Pro ring fits it. Perhaps this is a design change that occurred between my older '98 and your 2000 model. And, if I had to bet on it, I would say that when I removed mine, there was no o-ring installed, and it had been running just fine. If yours has no groove, no worries. And even if it does, it is still probably okay. I have seen some manufacturers mate metal to metal surfaces with no gaskets before - perhaps this is one of those cases.

bill buttermore
06-10-12, 08:58 PM
The o-ring in the Fel-Pro front cover gasket set is NOT for the oil pump. It is too big in diameter and thickness.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000020-3.jpg

So what is that groove around the oil intake port on the pump? I think I figured it out by disassembling the pump. I believe it is a liquid seal made using oil under pressure. Cool - huh? Look at the other side of the oil pump casting

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000022-1.jpg

The chamber on the right side in the image above is filled with oil under pressure - that little groove that connects to the chamber at 2 o-clock and 5 oclock would carry oil under pressure around the pump body effectively sealing it. a small drilled passage about 7 o-clock extends to the groove around the intake and seals that with oil as well.

Sorry if I got anyone (Steve) concerned, but it was neat to figure out the probable what and why of that groove.

eyewonder
06-10-12, 10:06 PM
Bill,

Its better to check before it goes in the car. I'm done for the day (updates to my thread in a half-hour, or so), but I WILL be checking my pump, tomorrow.

Cheers,
Steve

bill buttermore
06-11-12, 12:47 AM
^^^^Steve, please don't take out your oil pump on my account. There is no reason to believe your pump isn't just fine without an o-ring as mine will be when I prime it and re-install it.

bill buttermore
06-11-12, 09:16 PM
Decided to prime the oil pump with 70-weight oil, filled it about 2/3 full inside....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000027-2.jpg

Then poured a little more in both ports

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000028-1.jpg

Since I had the pump out anyway, it was easy to hook up my pressure oiler again....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000026-2.jpg

but this time the heads were installed with the cams so the flow would make it to all the lifters.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000024-2.jpg

I removed the galley plugs one at a time until oil flowed out pretty steadily

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000025-2.jpg

I then installed the primed oil pump. I think everything got a pretty good oil bath. Torqued the cam sprocket bolts to 90 ft-lb and realized I could install the cam covers. But I hadn't cleaned them and the front one was unbelievably dirty. I spent some time removing the paint from the front cover which had bubbled and peeled and was generally looking pretty tacky. Inspired by some others I brushed, sanded, and otherwise prepared the surface for paint. Then I got tired and just decided to paint it black - figured it would match the rear (that no-one sees) that way. New valve cover gaskets, seals and grommets.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000029-1.jpg

And here we are:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000032-1.jpg

Now I am pondering what to do with the front cover. I installed the seal to what I thought was flush with the outside of the cover. Then I read the FSM and saw where the seal had to be no more than .30" from the inside flats of the cover. When I laid a straightedge on the cover and applied the depth gauge I found the seal was not truly perpendicular but varied by about .015 from side to side, and at the "high" point it was just under .3" I can't see what would be in the way and don't know what that spec is for? And now I'm not real sure if a .015 variance is okay or not. I bought a new seal for it, but I don't know whether to install or not.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000019-3.jpg

bill buttermore
06-12-12, 01:20 PM
Need a little help. Does anyone know how far the water pump pulley should be pressed onto the cam? FSM says the special tool will set it to the correct depth. Yeah, well, my special tool is a loaner pulley puller from Advance Auto parts, so no help there.

Faded Crest
06-12-12, 01:31 PM
Does your cam have a nice stain leftover from where it was on before?... Or why not just wait until the very end of the project to install that pulley? That way you can line it up with your eye to the water pump itself. That's what I did when I replaced the cam on that project car I was telling you about.

bill buttermore
06-12-12, 02:07 PM
Does your cam have a nice stain leftover from where it was on before?... Or why not just wait until the very end of the project to install that pulley? That way you can line it up with your eye to the water pump itself. That's what I did when I replaced the cam on that project car I was telling you about.Thanks, Marc for the good ideas. There is a stain now that you mention it. Was gonna sand it off, but settled for just cleaning it smooth. I can still see it. I like your second suggestion too. That is really a good idea to make sure it is in good alignment with the pump.

eyewonder
06-12-12, 02:39 PM
Bill,

From reading the FSM, it sounded like the pulley was pulled onto the shaft so that it was flush. That way you could screw in the plastic cover button. I made my own puller (I actually resisted buying another tool!) and then put in the plastic cover. It looked just like I remember the original.

I do not yet have the water crossover installed , so I can not verify the alignment. But that sounds like a very good thing for me to check, seeing as how I shredded the belt on the one short WOT blast I did before taking on the project.

Cheers,
Steve

bill buttermore
06-12-12, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, Steve. Since I have already rented the tool, I'll install it flush, then check the alignment when I install the crossover and WP. If it isn't straight, I can always rent the tool again - after all, it's not like it's costing me any money.

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 12:47 AM
I installed a bunch of little parts, knock sensor, bolts, studs, plastic covers for the chain guide bolts, cam sensor, then applied some special lube for the cam lobes and flat lifters and installed the little lip seal for the water pump drive. Went to install the front cover and found to my dismay that the gasket did not fit. I had ordered the wrong front cover set when everything was dirty - I did not see this little part number stamping. I rubbed a little thread sealant over it so it would show up in the picture. If you have this stamping, you want the Fel-Pro kit that ends in 8 not 2. A $32 mistake. I could hardly hear the sound of that $32 drop in the bucket full of costs for this job.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001h-2.jpg

When I was picking up the correct gasket set, I also was able to rent this crank pulley installer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/Untitled-11.jpg

The kit came with another front seal, so I installed it not quite flush with the cover. That should give me the minimum clearance of .3" cited in the FSM. The installer kit pushed the balancer in to about 1/4" from flush with the end of the crank. I installed a 40mm 14mm x 1.5 bolt and hit it with my impact wrench - that pushed the pulley back so that it is now sitting about .057" above flush. Does this seem correct to you all? I hope that is as far as it is supposed to be. I want that oil pump to work!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005e-1.jpg

Have to admit, I'm getting a little nervous that all will go well. Not much left to do before this goes back on the cradle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002h-2.jpg

Faded Crest
06-13-12, 01:11 AM
I don't know why you are nervous... You have been more thorough than most. :thumbsup: BTW, did you get a new main pulley bolt? Or are you re-using the old one?

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 01:51 AM
I don't know why you are nervous... You have been more thorough than most. :thumbsup: BTW, did you get a new main pulley bolt? Or are you re-using the old one?I spoke with a Cadillac dealer who said they re-use 'em. And I did buy a bolt that I used to bring the pulley hopefully to where it should be with my impact wrench so as not to unduly stretch the original. I'll see how it feels when I'm pulling it through that big final angle - what is it - 150 degrees? If it feels like it is going thin on me, I'll buy a new one from a dealer. But, if it feels strong up to the end, I'll be good to go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008e-1.jpg

Had another question. I just released the chain tensioners, made no effort to push the tensioners tight to "help" them. When I rotate the engine, I'm hearing some clicking from (I think) the tensioners, maybe the guides? Is all of this normal?

iflipcars
06-13-12, 02:18 AM
Bill, I'm new to your thread and jumped to the end...so maybe im missing something. The pics you show have the valve covers and front timing cover already installed,and yet you mention just releasing your chain tensioners....Are the pics after that or did u take them off again or what?

Anyways, whenever I replace a timing belt/chain on any motor I rotate the crap out of it and check the timing marks a few times before I seal it up. I would investigate that ticking sound for sure, doesn't sound right to me.

BTW, i just updated my HG repair thread. Finished my repair about 2months ago (bit lazy updating here is all)

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 02:47 AM
Bill, I'm new to your thread and jumped to the end...so maybe im missing something. The pics you show have the valve covers and front timing cover already installed,and yet you mention just releasing your chain tensioners....Are the pics after that or did u take them off again or what?
The pix are after that. This is a pretty complete thread, you just need to go back a couple of pages to see the timing work.

Anyways, whenever I replace a timing belt/chain on any motor I rotate the crap out of it and check the timing marks a few times before I seal it up. I would investigate that ticking sound for sure, doesn't sound right to me. Yeah, I rotated it a bit more than 40 revolutions to check timing and more than that to prime with oil under low pressure. The ticking sounds are coming from the chain gear, I'm pretty sure. I could have used my finger to "help" the tensioners tighten the chains, but no-one ever said to do such a thing, and I am hoping once it fires up, it will clatter, then hopefully quiet down as they click tighter


BTW, i just updated my HG repair thread. Finished my repair about 2months ago (bit lazy updating here is all)just read it. Congratulations!

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 11:29 AM
Back in April, at post #79 in this thread, I listed the parts I had removed from the cradle to the engine stand. This is gonna come in handy pretty soon.

Updated order of dis-assembly: (from cradle removal to engine stand)

Coils and wires
Left PCV pipe
Surge coolant line
Right PCV pipe
Brake booster vacuum hose
Front (L) EGR pipe
Rear (R) EGR pipe
Wire harness from R bank
Ground from R bank
Right bank O2 sensor clip
Right coolant pipes (bracket between cylinders 1 & 3)
Harness bracket from water pump
Coolant pipe to thermostat housing
Throttle body
Transmission switch
Transmission cooling line (L) front - mounts pointing to 9:30
Wiring harness out from L side between dipstick and block
Water pump belt guard
EGR valve
Intake Manifold
Power steering pump and line clips
Starter, starter wiring and wiring to knock sensor
Coolant crossover
Y-pipe
Steering rack heat shield
R-side front rubber mount
R-side engine - trans bracket
Bottom trans - engine plate
L-side engine - trans brace (slot to front)
L-side rubber mount
L-exhaust manifold
Flywheel cover
Flex plate bolts (4)
Bell housing to engine bolts (4)

And... from Page 9, post #128, May 3......

Before I lose track of it, here is the list of engine parts removed (more or less) in order once the engine was on the stand.

Idler pulley for accessory belt
Tensioner assembly for acc belt
Front motor mount bracket (L head)
R exhaust manifold
Spark plugs
Lifting ring
Damper pulley
Front cover
Water pump pulley
L cam cover
R cam cover
Oil pump
R Secondary chain tensioner
L secondary chain tensioner
Access plugs (4) for chain guides
Cam sprockets
Lower secondary chain guides
Secondary chains
Upper secondary chain guides
Primary chain tensioner
R Front trans bracket
Flex plate (again)
Primary chain guide
Auxiliary sprocket bolt
Oil pump drive sleeve
Auxiliary sprocket, crank sprocket, and primary chain

Wondering how far that crank pulley goes on when it is properly torqued - could I have taken a pic? Yep....P25 of the photobucket N* album

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000007d.jpg

Compare to where I am now

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003e-2.jpg

hmmmm....seems like I might be there. Too bad I didn't think to measure it....ah well

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 07:54 PM
Got the items on the bottom half of the list installed. Hooked it up with the lifting ring on the rear of the right head and the dog-bone bolt on the front of the left head. Removed the engine stand mount and installed the flex plate. That let me jam the flex plate through one of the three smaller holes with the same big phillip's head I used to break the HB bolt loose. Only issue with tightening is the jam point is the bottom lug on the crankcase instead of the heavier block you can bear against when un-doing. Still unsure of whether I had pressed the HB on far enough, I installed the grade 8 bolt I purchased locally and tightened til the deflecting beam was buried on my torque wrench. I undid the bolt with the impact wrench and measured the offset. It was .057" - same as when I started. I figured it was bottomed out. So I set up my cheater bar, fulcrum, and blocked the motor and did up the crank bolt. 37 ft-lb + 150 degrees. Had to stand on the cheater at about 3-feet out to get'r done. Felt no stretching or weakening as it reached the 150 mark, so we're gonna call it good to go.

Now I've gotta clean up my work table so I can open the door and drop it back onto the cradle. Can't believe I'm getting close to getting done.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009d-1.jpg

tateos
06-13-12, 09:40 PM
Does your cam have a nice stain leftover from where it was on before?... Or why not just wait until the very end of the project to install that pulley? That way you can line it up with your eye to the water pump itself. That's what I did when I replaced the cam on that project car I was telling you about.

Yeah - that!

tateos
06-13-12, 09:56 PM
Bill:

The most important thing with the crank bolt is that it has bottomed out on the oil pump drive - that's inside. The part you see on the outside is not critical, as long as there is some tension. I think I used the square drive on 1 of the cams to (indirectly) prevent the crankshaft from turning when tightening the bolt. That bolt was REALLY hard to break loose - yes, had to use a cheater bar on a 24" breaker bar to get it to break loose, and when it did, WOW what a snap - I thought something broke!!!! Installation following directions, including first using an installer similar to what you used, was so easy that I thought I did it wrong, loosened it, and then re-installed - felt the same. Never had any problems with oil pressure, so I must have done it right.

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 11:15 PM
I can guarantee you there is some tension on that bolt. I'm estimating about 600 ft-lb of torque was applied to install it. And I did press the pulley in twice with no further movement, so hopefully the hub of the pulley is pressing hard against that oil pump drive bushing. If not, this engine won't last very long.

I always get antsy toward the end of rebuilds. Thinking about all the different ways that one forgotten fastener can spell disaster. So much has to be right for it to work well, so little wrong to fail miserably.

bill buttermore
06-13-12, 11:16 PM
Double post deleted

eyewonder
06-14-12, 09:20 AM
Bill:

The most important thing with the crank bolt is that it has bottomed out on the oil pump drive - that's inside. The part you see on the outside is not critical, as long as there is some tension.

Richard,

I'm not following how the crank bolt can actually contact the oil pump drive. It looks like it is just threaded into the crankshaft nose, and when tightened, pulls the crank pulley toward the flywheel end, which forces the oil pump drive sleeve in the same direction, which then jams the flywheel end of the drive collar against the crankshaft. That heavy compression force between the crankshaft & the pulley is what locks the drive collar to the crankshaft so that it doesn't need a keyway to hold it in position.

Bill,

You were talking about some clearance dimension (.3" ? or something) you were looking for when initially installing the crank pulley, so I looked at the FSM for my 2000 & couldn't find anything. The procedure was to install the pulley using the specified J 41998-B tool, oil the threads of the bolt, initially torque to 37 lbs-ft, then an additional 150 degrees. No mention was made of dimensions. Perhaps something different with your year?

But more importantly for you, with the most recent sequence of pictures, it showed the crank WITHOUT the bolt, and the caption of 'Where I am now". Did you do the final torque angle tightening, and then remove the bolt for measurement or pictures?

If that is the case, will you again torque the crank bolt to specification? I have not installed my pulley yet, so I don't have a feel for how much of a 'press fit' there is between the crankshaft & pulley, but I don't think its enough to hold the required amount of tension on the drive collar, at least for long term. Without the crank bolt keeping tension on the pulley (and in effect the drive collar) it seems likely that it would loosen up over time, and then you would loose your oil pump.

If any experience builders have comments or corrections, please chime in.

Cheers,
Steve

ternstes
06-14-12, 09:31 AM
The oil pump is sandwiched between the crankshaft collar and the pulley and is driven by the friction contact between these surfaces. That is the reason for the high torque value on the crank pulley bolt. I would tend to think that as long as you are pressing the pulley back onto the shaft squarely, that tightening the bolt down to spec puts the pulley in the right position. I may be underthinking it, but the amount of force from the torque on the bolt should be greater than the friction of pressing the pulley on the crankshaft. Therefore, with the bolt tightened to spec, the pulley should be in the correct position with enough friction on the oil pump to drive it.

bill buttermore
06-14-12, 11:53 AM
Steve, The .3" spec was referring to the distance between the engine side of the front oil seal and the inside of the front cover. By my measurements, if you install the seal flush with the outer surface, that pushes the seal a little farther in than it is supposed to be. I have no idea why that .3 spec exists. I couldn't see anything on the inside of the cover that would hit the seal if it were sitting at, say .25". Anyway, I removed and installed another new seal, pressing it in just a little bit above flush to the outside cover give me the .3" Now I suppose the crank pulley will rub against the outside of the seal and ruin everything. (Paranoia setting in)

Steve and Richard, My concern re the oil pump drive was that the crank pulley was installed far enough in to press the drive bushing firmly against the crank. My pulley (HB) required a lot of force to move either way. It was tough to pull and tough to press in. When I first pressed it in with the rented tool (not the GM tool) the tool seemed to bottom out, but when I removed the tool, the pulley was still sitting out a quarter inch or so from the end of the crank. I knew that at that distance, the oil pump drive bushing would not be engaged much less pressed tight. I used a new 14mm x 1.5 x 40 mm long grade 8 bolt with two hardened washers and my impact wrench to bring the pulley up to where you see in the picture I posted. Because my pulley pressed on with such difficulty, I couldn't be sure when I was up against the drive bushing. And, because an angle torque measurement is used for the final tightening, you wouldn't really know if you were where you needed to be, if it required more than 37 ft-lb to move the pulley inward - which I am pretty sure mine did.

The old photo I took when I first removed the crank bolt appeared to pretty much match with the distance I achieved by using my impact wrench to finish pressing in the HB. The measured distance from the outside of the HB to the face of the crank was .058". After installing the flex plate and locking it, I inserted the new bolt again and torqued it with my deflecting beam wrench to better than 150 ft-lb. When I removed the bolt, it had not moved the pulley any closer to the end of the crank - it still measured .057". At that point, I felt pretty sure I had engaged the pump drive bushing, so I installed the factory bolt and did it up 37 ft-lb + 150 degrees by setting up a fulcrum, blocking the engine and standing on my cheater.

tateos
06-14-12, 09:31 PM
Yeah - that's what I'm saying - I did not feel that bolt was very hard to tighten! I first bottomed the damper and then followed the instructions (whatever it was - xx foot pounds + 120 degrees, I think?) - then loosened it then re-did the procedure. I didn't measure the final torque, but it didn't feel like more than the cam bolts, and they're what? Something like 90 lbs, if memory serves? Whatever I did, it worked, and has continued to be fine 4+ years later.

bill buttermore
06-14-12, 10:20 PM
... Whatever I did, it worked, and has continued to be fine 4+ years later. I will be happy to have done as good a job as you, Richard.

tateos
06-15-12, 02:16 PM
I didn't do that good of a job, Bill - not even close to what you've done! In addition to the required thread repair, the only "extras" I can remember doing while the engine and cradle were out of the car were to de-carbon the combustion chambers and piston crowns, replaced the oil pan gasket, front and rear seal, and all other gaskets and seals that were uncovered (whether they needed it or not), and replaced the oil pressure sending switch (in kind of a tight spot, prone to leaking and only cost $3-4). Also, I replaced the original steering rack that had suffered from morning sickness for years. What didn't I do? Never disassembled the crank case halves, so never touched the bearings, rods, rings, pistons or crank. Never even removed the oil pump. Did not disassemble the heads, so cams, valves, and valve seals were replaced as removed. Did not do any preemptive work on the trans - did not replace the cam or crank position or O2 sensors.

So, you've done a MUCH better job than I did, but if you meant to convey that you will be happy of your engine starts right up when you're done and runs well with no problems for 4+ more years, than yes, I hope you achieve that result, too, and I think you will...and more!

Faded Crest
06-15-12, 03:14 PM
Richard, to me you make a case for not going as deep as the three of us have unless you need to.

Seeing Bill's and Steve's projects coming together at the last stages makes me want to get back on mine... But I'm still sitting around waiting for my ARP ring compressor sleeve. :annoyed: Wonder if they are back ordered.

tateos
06-15-12, 03:59 PM
In the past, I have always used something like this:

http://www.wonderbart.com/images/09/april/piston_ring_compressor_03618.jpg

but the new ones surely do look pretty slick!

Faded Crest
06-15-12, 04:25 PM
Yeah, I ordered the ARP sleeve when I saw Steve's and Bill's but I'm really starting to wonder where it is. I guess I need to contact the company.

bill buttermore
06-15-12, 06:29 PM
...if you meant to convey that you will be happy of your engine starts right up when you're done and runs well with no problems for 4+ more years, than yes, I hope you achieve that result, too, and I think you will...and more! Yeah, that! But we all know that doesn't happen unless you have done a good job.

bill buttermore
06-15-12, 09:30 PM
Installed the exhaust crossunder pipe loosely, cleaned the garage and cleared my work table so I could fold it flat in order to open the door.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009e-1.jpg



When I removed the engine from the cradle, it did not come easily and I cracked one of the dowel pockets on the bell-housing when the engine suddenly came free. I did not want to fight the installation in the same way,. The problem was the drive shafts that kept the transmission from angling up as much as it needed to. According to my measurements, I needed 8-1/2" below the center of the crankshaft to provide an easy straight-in installation for the engine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008f-1.jpg

The solution was to pull the passenger side drive axle. I undid the axle nut, removed the tie rod end, sway bar link, caliper bracket and rotor...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005f-2.jpg

...then found I could not get my ball-joint tool in on the joint because of a shield that was bolted under the hub assembly. With the strut out of the car, it was really easy to twist it around so I could get the impact wrench on the three hub bolts. Once the hub was out, the strut and knuckle could be tilted and twisted to pull the axle out of the big hole. Ball joint did not have to be split - yay!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003f-2.jpg

This allowed me to jack and block the trans at an angle that let me easily float the engine in place.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001i-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002i-2.jpg

Set the cradle blocks to accommodate the legs on the hoist

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011d.jpg

This hookup let the motor hang at approximately the correct angle

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000013d-1.jpg

had to lower the Left side of the trans

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000014c-1.jpg

It went together pretty easily. Put the big bolts in, then with it still on the hoist, began to install the mounts. First was the right side engine to trans bracket...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000017c-1.jpg

...then the heat shield, then the right side motor mount.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000021a-1.jpg

I used blue loctite on the flex-plate to converter bolts and torqued them to 35 ft-lb. The flywheel cover and bottom trans to oil pan plate went on next.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000018b-2.jpg

I had positioned the engine on the cradle with the front (left) motor mount installed. After the right side mount was in, I had to undo all four engine bolts on the left side mount, and remove the oil pressure sender to permit installation of the left exhaust manifold. I think I removed and installed the little brace from the trans to the Left mount stud at least three times, to allow the installation of other parts. Of all the mounts, brackets and braces, it is the last one to install.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000019a-2.jpg

I ended up with four empty plastic tubs and (remarkably) no lost or extra fasteners.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000024a-1.jpg

Next up is the starter, water crossover, and the 4267 parts in the trunk

iflipcars
06-15-12, 10:09 PM
Awesome pics Bill !! As you probably know, my project was also a 98 deville. I now know the bracket my car was missing....its in your last 2 pics. The tube like bracket that u had to remove several times !! Someone along the way before I bought the car must have thought that bracket was not needed, lol, cuz it wasn't on the car....now im wondering if I should hunt one down or not.

bill buttermore
06-15-12, 10:12 PM
Awesome pics Bill !! As you probably know, my project was also a 98 deville. I now know the bracket my car was missing....its in your last 2 pics. The tube like bracket that u had to remove several times !! Someone along the way before I bought the car must have thought that bracket was not needed, lol, cuz it wasn't on the car....now im wondering if I should hunt one down or not. You might try your nearest pick n pull yard. All you need is a 15mm socket with a 6" extension for the front and a 15mm box wrench for the back.

rodnok01
06-15-12, 11:09 PM
What no more red loctite :peeking:

Remember when it was a couple boxes full of parts to take an engine out and put back in...

Looking good Bill, won't be long now.

bill buttermore
06-16-12, 12:01 AM
What no more red loctite :peeking: hahaha - I have about $20 worth remaining of that stuff sitting in my toolbox - don't know if I'll ever find a use for it.


Remember when it was a couple boxes full of parts to take an engine out and put back in... Yeah...in fact, the last Camry I did was just that - a couple of boxes - okay, they were big boxes that contained a lot of little boxes - but still......


Looking good Bill, won't be long now.I dunno - could be another week at the rate I'm goin....

I want to flush out all the old Dex - I was gonna ask...does anyone know which heater hose feeds the core and which returns? I want to reverse flush it while it is easy to access.

rodnok01
06-16-12, 10:26 AM
Looks like bottom hose is inlet according to flow diagram someone has posted here that I saved. then cold exits top and goes to surge tank and back to WP hose inlet(the line with the T in it).

bill buttermore
06-16-12, 11:26 AM
^^^^Thank you very much for that information!

bill buttermore
06-16-12, 09:41 PM
Put the right wheel assembly back together, de-rusted the rotor

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000032a-1.jpg

Took this opportunity to replace the end links - they were pretty loose. Used my pickle fork and a tie-rod tool to push the taper back out. Used a 15/16 open end on the other side - that worked better - didn't want to slip like the taper on the fork.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000030a-1.jpg

These mevo brand links from RockAuto were way heavier than the ones that were on it. And these have grease fittings. Best of all - they're cheap.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000031a-1.jpg

Figured it was time to re-install the wiring harness. This is one of the most time consuming parts of engine work for me. Seems to take forever to figure out where everything should be routed. Unless I am missing something, (probably am) the engine electrical section of the FSM is not very specific on where everything goes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000028a.jpg

Installed the starter, then got the harness started on the left side and over the trans. Then figured it was time for the coolant crossover. Let me be the most recent person to say - what a pain! I can hardly imagine what it is like to change this in the car. It was miserable to work on when I had pretty much full access. It's those two lower left bolts that get ya'. I carefully cleaned the sealing surfaces and wire brushed the bolts, then coated all the threads with thread sealant. Installed all the bolts, hung the gaskets on the bolts, then carefully coaxed it into position. Well, that is how I did it. I won't tell how many tries.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000035a.jpg

That let me install the water pump belt. Looks straight in real life, even though it looks from the photo that the cam pulley might need to go in a bit - but it's already flush with the end of the shaft, and at least up to and probably encroaching on the stain from previous oxidation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000034a.jpg

Noticed that three cylinders were holding pressure as the sun warmed the trapped air. I'm takin' that as a good sign.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000033-1.jpg

Maybe get some more done tomorrow...

Faded Crest
06-16-12, 09:59 PM
Wow Bill, you are like a machine! LOL. What will you do with yourself when this is over?

I just did the end links on my Eldorado a couple weeks ago. Cheapy Harbor Freight ball joint tool was invaluable. Well worth the $20.

bill buttermore
06-16-12, 10:44 PM
... What will you do with yourself when this is over? Get the Vanagon camper ready to sell, get the boat ready to sell, paint the house, record some learning files for the quartet, clean the shop downstairs, clean the garage, install the wife's gas kiln, design and build that window I've been wanting to do, install valve stem seals in the truck, rustproof the caddy, look for another N* needing a little love....(not necessarily in that order....)

Faded Crest
06-17-12, 09:11 AM
LOL. I don't see "Find another Northstar project" on that list.

rodnok01
06-17-12, 09:20 AM
How about take a long cruise in the Caddy :cloud9:

Submariner409
06-17-12, 10:24 AM
Bill, Your most recent pictures - how old is the tensioner pulley on the water pump drive ??? The pulley/bearing alone can be replaced - $23 at NAPA or RockAuto.

Mine went at 56,000 - heard the clicking and swapped it out..........and you can change the pulley alone with the tensioner arm still on the engine.

bill buttermore
06-17-12, 11:23 AM
LOL. I don't see "Find another Northstar project" on that list.Read it again, Marc!

bill buttermore
06-17-12, 11:24 AM
How about take a long cruise in the Caddy :cloud9:Iowa to Pennsylvania long enough?


Bill, Your most recent pictures - how old is the tensioner pulley on the water pump drive ??? The pulley/bearing alone can be replaced - $23 at NAPA or RockAuto.

Mine went at 56,000 - heard the clicking and swapped it out..........and you can change the pulley alone with the tensioner arm still on the engine. Got no idea how old it is, but the bearing looked and felt pretty good. Good to know re the change-out. I'll check O'Reilly later this AM.

I lied. There were nowhere near 4000 parts in the trunk.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000037a.jpg

By the time I removed these little treasures...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000038a.jpg

There were not that many engine parts remaining....Started today by cleaning up and rust-painting that nasty coolant pipe

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000036a.jpg

When I found the little bracket in a bag, it became clear how this goes together

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000041a.jpg

Anti-seize on the threads, and in with the EGR pipe

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000039a.jpg

I coulda' sworn I bought a new gasket for this....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000040a.jpg

Time for breakfast

bill buttermore
06-17-12, 06:50 PM
And then, while we were eating breakfast, the Northstar Fairy came and finished assembling my engine!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000056.jpg

Details later.

Faded Crest
06-17-12, 07:57 PM
Read it again, Marc!

:lol: Did I miss it, or did you add it?

bill buttermore
06-17-12, 08:59 PM
About that EGR pipe. Had to come back off. Coolant pipes go on first. I really should have used a gear clamp under here. I'm sure I will regret not having done so one day.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000042a.jpg

When fitting the coolant pipes, the bracket between #1 and #3 cylinder goes on first. The bolt into the head is installed...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000045a.jpg

...then the bolt into the brace below. Then the lower end of the brace on the trans can be tightened.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000046a.jpg

The electrical connector and clip for the steering rack go on. Then the heat shield.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000049a.jpg

The crossunder pipe was left loose on the right side until the Y-pipe was fitted. Used graphite and oil on the exhaust bolts and on both sides of the metal ball joint after wire brushing them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000058.jpg

After the Y-pipe is installed, the crossunder brace can be tightened and the grounds added to the stud.
I had to go back to my own video on p4 of this thread to see how the wiring harness fitted up - glad I made it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000048a.jpg

Removed the tape from the intake ports and cleaned residual adhesive with brake parts cleaner.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000051a.jpg

Installed new gaskets on intake...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000052a.jpg

...and torqued it down center to ends 89 in-lb. One of the four studs made a popping sound and lost some torque. I pulled it but found no thread damage - on re-installation it just didn't want to go much over 50 in-lb so I let it be. If it leaks, I have it's address. It wasn't leaking when I took it apart and a couple of the bolts were only finger tight, so I'm not too concerned.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000053.jpg

Took way too long to figure out how the harness fit around the coils and plug wires. Went to photobucket N* album to see, but it is such a jumble.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000054.jpg

Installed the AC compressor and the alternator. I had removed them before pulling the cradle, but I think they'll go in okay, and it's a lot easier to do anything now than when it is back in the engine bay.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000055.jpg

Gotta get a throttle body gasket - I may put the cradle back in before going any further.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000057.jpg

Now where were we...Ah, yes...and then the Northstar Fairy came and said, "time for dinner!"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000056.jpg

All in all - a good day's work.

bill buttermore
06-17-12, 09:03 PM
:lol: Did I miss it, or did you add it?Nah- you missed it - it was in there from the start. That's why things cannot be in any particular order. As you are more aware than most, you need to be ready to jump on a good deal whenever it appears.

rodnok01
06-17-12, 09:42 PM
Wish that fairy would visit around here... I only get visited by the do it your $^&#Dself fairy :ripped:

You can tell you've done this type of work before the hard way, without planning and pics. Going together nicely it looks.
:rockon:

bill buttermore
06-18-12, 07:09 PM
I will have all the Dex long gone from this engine before refilling it with Prestone and firing it up. Easy to do the heater core with the engine out. Reverse flushed it through the top hose. No sludge or crud came out, just a bit of dirt from the bottom of the bucket.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002j-2.jpg

Ran the water until it was clean flowing in both directions. The heater core has a pretty small capacity.
Made a hole in a plug for my air hose and gently pushed out the water. Now the heater core is clean and empty.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003g-2.jpg

Decided to change the tensioner pulley - it was making a little noise. The new pulley is steel - seems better quality than the plastic it replaced. Since all the pulleys were in place, I installed the serpentine belt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000004g-2.jpg

Slid the dolly and plywood under the cradle and got it centered a couple inches to the left of the crank pulley. The weight is really too much for these casters. I have to turn each caster the direction I wish to go, or I ain't goin' nowhere.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005g-2.jpg

Here we are, lined up to go back in.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000008g-1.jpg

Now all we need is the hoist.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009f-1.jpg

But to get the hoist out the door, the door has to slide around the inside side wall of the garage where my collapsible workbench is installed. So, gotta clear the bench and drop it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000010e-1.jpg

As I am doing this alone, I rigged up a come-along to pull the cradle into position. See the exhaust flange? It should not be this way to install the cradle.....more later

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011e-1.jpg

This angled position helps get the ABS pump wiggled around the water pump housing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000012e-1.jpg

The next hour or so was spent trying to drop the body and line up the cradle. It was giving me fits until I realized the problem. I had not dropped the exhaust and the Y-pipe was hung up on the studs on the catalytic converter. After I dropped the exhaust on the car, the cradle was free to position.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000015d-1.jpg

Back home again - just like old times...only the six cradle bolts and struts are in so far

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000013e-1.jpg

Probably a couple three more days to hook everything back up

bill buttermore
06-19-12, 01:03 AM
Gentlemen: What is the best way to disable the fuel pump and ignition without preventing the starter circuit from functioning? In the near future, I will be wanting to spin the engine without plugs to prime the oil system before I install the plugs and try to fire it up for real.

I WANNA-V
06-19-12, 08:24 AM
Pull the fuel pump fuse and disconnect the coil pack primarys?

bill buttermore
06-19-12, 10:19 AM
Thanks for the reply. Pulling the primaries won't harm the ICM? Is there a relay or fuse for ignition that will still allow the starter to spin?


In other news......Hooray! I have completed the most difficult part of this job. I got the pinch bolt installed. :banana: I could not manage the steering coupling and the struts yesterday, so just did the struts. For future reference, this can be accomplished with the cradle bolted all the way up. I removed the caliper bracket and hung it on the spring above, removed the rotor, installed the ignition key to unlock the column with steering wheel and road wheels in straight ahead position. Lay on back with feet to rear and using left hand lifted boot and grasped flex joint on column. Joint can be turned with hand above the post on the rack until it mates. Although it will start, it may not want to slide down the post. That's because there is tension in the joint with the cradle all the way up. I used a long, heavy screwdriver to press the flex joint down and toward the rear. This relieved the tension sufficiently to allow the joint to slide right down. Man, I feel like I've won the lottery. And it took less than an hour. Woot! Drilling and tapping the cylinder block is cake compared to this.

Faded Crest
06-19-12, 11:46 AM
Gentlemen: What is the best way to disable the fuel pump and ignition without preventing the starter circuit from functioning? In the near future, I will be wanting to spin the engine without plugs to prime the oil system before I install the plugs and try to fire it up for real.

You could also just pull the line going to the fuel filter. It doesn't pump much fuel at all when you crank it.

I WANNA-V
06-19-12, 08:19 PM
No there will be no damage to icm or pcm although you will set codes that can be cleared. Fuel pump fuse or even the relay is easy to pull and no raw gas to worry about.

bill buttermore
06-20-12, 12:22 AM
Thank you, gentlemen for the good advice.

Getting closer....today I did the grunt work under the car: installed the nuts for the engine mounts, tightened all the cradle bolts. Spent more time than you can imagine trying to re-seal the boot onto the rack. When I took it apart there was a thick piece of foam rubber tape wrapped around the bottom of the boot sealing out the elements. I had to tear that to lift the boot. Today I shopped around for something similar and the best I could come up with was a roll of 3M rubber splice tape. Eventually, I got that to seal around the bottom of the boot. Problem is, I'm sure it is not oil resistant. Well, there shouldn't be much oil - at least for a while. With the steering connected and sealed, I figured I could undo the big steel bar across the front bumper supports. I marked the bar and stored it just in case I might need it again....Kinda' nice to get rid of that demolition derby look.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000002k-2.jpg

Mounted and connected the brake line flex hoses to the metal lines in the wheelwells and bled both front brakes. Connected the exhaust at the flange with a new gasket and re-routed and connected the rear oxygen sensor. Then I remembered that one of the captive bolts on the shield for the oxygen sensor had broken when I was removing it. After way too much time trying to find something to work, I gave up, and drilled and tapped a new hole beside the old one. Should have done that in the first place. While I had the LF rotor off doing the pinch bolt, I de-rusted it. My plan of covering it with a plastic bag to keep the moisture off kinda backfired. Instead, it caught and held the rain in a puddle in the bottom of the bag against the rotor and provided 100 humidity for maximum rustage. Well, it's all cleaned up now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005h-2.jpg

Gotta remember to torque this axle nut. The wet stuff you see on the cradle mounts is rustproofing oil. I hit them with the needle scaler to remove the rust that had formed on a few of them, then coated them before installing the cradle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000003h-2.jpg

Gotta love that clean oil pan peekin' out from under that cradle. The rest of the work should be from the top down. We'll see how much we can get done tomorrow before the predicted rains come.

bill buttermore
06-20-12, 07:17 PM
Have a lot of pix documenting engine build-up that I will post later, but right now I need some help. Does anyone know where this cable goes? I marked the small end (10mm head bolt) "T" and the big end (15mm head bolt) is a little greasy. It looks to me like something that maybe should have gone under the intake manifold because it has some deteriorated paper on it like other cables did from under there. I hope not, but......??????

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000031b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000032b.jpg

Here is a photo of the area under the intake when I took it apart two months ago

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000027.jpg

rodnok01
06-20-12, 08:27 PM
That would be the coil pack ground wire, goes under left back(lowest center of engine) coil pack bolt and dives over VC, cannot tell where it hooks to. Think it hooks to bolt in center of your last pic on the sticking out above the 02 sensor

tateos
06-20-12, 08:29 PM
Bill - been a few years, but I think maybe you can ignore the red shrink tubing cue...i don't know why, but I want to say maybe it connects the coil pack frame to Ground? Let's see how senile I am...

Also, what did you use to seal the threads on the flex plate to crankshaft output flange?

Richard Moore

rodnok01
06-20-12, 08:35 PM
In your dress engine video you can just see the end when you swing around and shoot the lr corner of the engine, right abovt the coolant tube bracket looks like

bill buttermore
06-20-12, 09:07 PM
Halleluia! Thank you so much. Thought I was gonna go crazy! Was working my way through over 600 pix and beginning to lose faith.

Richard, I used blue threadlocker on the flex-plate to crank bolts, as well as on the bolts from the flex-plate to the torque converter.

bill buttermore
06-20-12, 10:09 PM
Okay....so now the question is: how can I roll the engine forward a couple of inches to give me room to access that bolt? Do I need to remove the nuts from the L side trans mount and the R rear mount? I have the bolt loosened from underneath with an ungodly combination of extensions and joints, but I don't think I dare pull it completely out for fear I won't be able to get it started back in the hole through the coolant lines bracket and ground lug.

Option 2: cut a slot in the lug and slip it between the bracket and the head over the bolt.

Option 3: buy a negative battery cable that's a few feet long and run that to the cylinder head somewhere convenient. Do you think it makes any difference where a ground is located? Could it have an effect on other stuff like the knock sensor?

rodnok01
06-20-12, 10:44 PM
2 or 3, I doubt it will make any difference as long as it is grounded. Personally I would just reroute the cable, find another ground point, think there is on by the trans anyways.

bill buttermore
06-20-12, 11:11 PM
Started today by installing the heater hoses and A/C lines. Had to unbolt the oil filter adapter to provide access to attach the lines to the compressor.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001l-1.jpg

Put the battery on charge in hopes of needing it later in the day. Flushed the radiator and attached the condenser to the rad.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009g-1.jpg

Installed them both together

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000011f-1.jpg

Then the airbag sensor and the fans

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000015e-1.jpg

Bought an A/C seal kit

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000016d-1.jpg

Installed new rings and joined the lines to the condenser

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000017d-1.jpg

Then the transmission lines

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000018c-1.jpg

Washer fluid reservoir

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000019b-1.jpg

Then started building up the electrical center. The captive nut was spinning in its molded plastic housing, so I cut the plastic away from the nut so I could get a wrench on it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000022b-1.jpg

Bolted terminals (carefully) to PCM, then installed in box

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000025b.jpg

Fuel lines, throttle body,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000027b-1.jpg

Electrical center finished

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000024b.jpg

Evaporative emission

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000028b.jpg

Radiator hoses

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000030b.jpg

Not sure I have the cables routed according to GM, but they will work. Need only to install the receiver/dryer and the coolant surge tank and I will be ready to add coolant. And then I found this in the trunk.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000031b.jpg

Rodnock and Tateos inform me that it is the coil ground wire. I had seen my symbol for ground on one of the coolant brackets when I was installing them, but had no idea what ground it was. I figured "ahhh.. how hard can it be to install a ground wire when the cradle is back in?" That mistake is gonna cost me some time.

Still, if things go okay, we may have it running tomorrow. Cross fingers.

bill buttermore
06-20-12, 11:16 PM
2 or 3, I doubt it will make any difference as long as it is grounded. Personally I would just reroute the cable, find another ground point, think there is on by the trans anyways.

Thanks. Maybe I'll try #2, that way I won't have to take the time to go to the store. Glad that bolt isn't all the way out! The crookedy assemblage of tooling would have made it very difficult to get that bolt started again.

Faded Crest
06-20-12, 11:31 PM
I remember that ground strap. Ugh! LOL. I'm sure you'll get it quickly. At least it will seem quick to all of us reading the posts. :D

tateos
06-21-12, 06:04 PM
I asked because you mentioned recently that you have a lot of thread locker left, and there's lots of oil and full crankcase pressure behind those crankshaft flange bolts. I guess thread locker should be fine - it's important to seal the threads - I used red RTV, which is what seemed to be on the threads when I removed them. I re-used the bolts (I think the manual said to replace them) and tightened using the torque angle gauge. I did not use any threadlocker on the flexplate to torque converter bolt threads - probably not a bad idea, though




Halleluia! Thank you so much. Thought I was gonna go crazy! Was working my way through over 600 pix and beginning to lose faith.

Richard, I used blue threadlocker on the flex-plate to crank bolts, as well as on the bolts from the flex-plate to the torque converter.

bill buttermore
06-21-12, 09:18 PM
I asked because you mentioned recently that you have a lot of thread locker left, and there's lots of oil and full crankcase pressure behind those crankshaft flange bolts. I guess thread locker should be fine - it's important to seal the threads - I used red RTV, which is what seemed to be on the threads when I removed them. I re-used the bolts (I think the manual said to replace them) and tightened using the torque angle gauge. I did not use any threadlocker on the flexplate to torque converter bolt threads - probably not a bad idea, thoughI had no idea there was full oil pressure behind those bolts or I would have been more careful sealing them! Hope I did a good job. We'll know soon enough.

Today we started by installing the new AC dryer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000001m-1.jpg

Cut a slot in the lug of the coil ground

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000009h-1.jpg

Slipped it behind the bolt and tightened it up.

Filled the engine with Prestone through the top radiator hose 'til coolant flowed out the surge tank overflow

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000005j-1.jpg

Then filled the radiator and buttoned it up

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000006i-1.jpg

Spun the engine a few times with the plugs out to prime the oiling system then installed the plugs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000010g-1.jpg

And fired it up. Click on image below for video

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar%20videos/th_VID00006.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar%20videos/?action=view&current=VID00006.mp4)

Ran out of parts here

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000013g.jpg

And I thought things had returned to normal....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/billbuttermore/Northstar/IM000016e.jpg

...until I took it for a ride and it found it won't shift out of first gear! Adjusted shift linkage, checked trans electrical connections, tried again - still only low gear. Must have missed something somewhere. This car shifted like butter before I tore it apart. After a couple of rides around the block the lifters (?) maybe seem to be quieting down - I'd like to get it out on the highway, but I have this shifting problem. Any ideas? :bang2:

rodnok01
06-21-12, 09:39 PM
Did you try 3 and 2 not just drive?

check out post #5
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/168320-1999-deville-transmission-problems-p1527-code.html

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/237392-97-seville-sts-tranny-issues.html

Inspect the wiring for poor electrical connections at the transmission 20-way connector. Inspect the wiring for poor electrical connections at the 5-way TFP Val. Position Sw. connector.