: 2002 6.0 Vs 2008 6.2. What happened?



Rockey
03-19-12, 03:50 PM
Here is the story. My wifes trany blew up in the 02' Escalade last week. I found someone interested in buying it as-is so we sold it. We went out and looked at an 08' today and I was really excited at first because I knew the 07' + had 400+ hp compared to her 350 hp 6.0. I was a kinda surprised when I test drove it. It took quite a bit of pedal travel to get it moving compared to her 02' 6.0. I thought there was something wrong with that one so I took another that the dealer had sitting there out for a test drive and it was the same way. Throttle response was less than stellar and acceleration seemed subpar. Now I do daily drive an 09 CTSV that is modified but I drove her 02' enough to make a fair comparison. Is this normal? We really like the newer generation other than this issue. Is my butt dyno way off or is this common?

Buff
03-19-12, 04:13 PM
I have not driven a first gen but I find the response to be good on mine. I think
you butt dyno is little off because of your ct-v.

K9Caddy
03-19-12, 04:19 PM
My 2009 RIPS when I put down the hammer! Just a tune, B&B exhaust and K&N CAI. I can even catch a 4 wheel scratch when she downshifts sometimes....

Rockey
03-19-12, 04:20 PM
Could be. I'll go test drive a third one at a different dealer just to be sure. Thanks

bstiffmanofsteel
03-19-12, 05:10 PM
You are correct. My 2002 Was much explosive than my 07. And the seats aren't as comfy!

hcvone
03-19-12, 06:10 PM
Had a 2002, 2003 and 2005, everyone was slower than my 2007's and newer, six speed trans and 50 more hp on the 2007's and up, no comparison in performance, seats much more comfee in the 2002-2006's for SURE

Playdrv4me
03-19-12, 06:58 PM
You are not crazy. Search the old threads here and you'll see I brought this up also when we got our first '07. The problem with the 2007+ Escalades ('07 and '08 at the very least) is that the drive by wire throttle control is less aggressive than the old one. So it isn't that there is power lacking, but rather the way the power is applied from the throttle input. There are various products to correct this, one of the most novel is one called a SprintBooster that is essentially a "black box" that installs between your throttle connector (near the pedal) and the electrical cable to the throttle. It is adjustable to different amounts of aggressiveness, and essentially all it does is trick the throttle control into thinking that the throttle starts out pressed further down than it actually is. Stupidly simple of course, but everything I've seen is that they do work well. Mercedes vehicles have this problem worse than just about any other, especially compared to my BMWs.

The guy that mentioned the seats are less comfortable is also somewhat correct. I'm not sure that the seat comfort itself is better or worse, but the material of the leather itself was better, and more aromatic in the 2002-2006 model.

Rockey
03-19-12, 07:28 PM
Ah, yes I think you are 100% right on. We (CTSV owners) have the same limitiations from the ECM programming with respect to the drive by wire. See http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-performance-mods/254599-found-some-cool-tables-limited-torque.html In addition the engineers thought it would be more prudent to have 25% throttle input equate to 7% throttle opening. This can be easily tuned by a good tuner.

hcvone - this is not an argument which one is faster at WOT. I am sure the newer generation is faster at WOT. The problem is I drive 95% of the time at anything less than WOT and the throttle response is much better in that range with the 2nd generation Escalade.

BlownEscalade
03-20-12, 02:52 AM
As for comfort +1 on the older ones being more comfortable. I have a 06 and 11 and love the seats on the 06 more. Overall though, no comparison 11 all the way

hcvone
03-20-12, 07:08 AM
Ah, yes I think you are 100% right on. We (CTSV owners) have the same limitiations from the ECM programming with respect to the drive by wire. See http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2009-cadillac-cts-v-performance-mods/254599-found-some-cool-tables-limited-torque.html In addition the engineers thought it would be more prudent to have 25% throttle input equate to 7% throttle opening. This can be easily tuned by a good tuner.

hcvone - this is not an argument which one is faster at WOT. I am sure the newer generation is faster at WOT. The problem is I drive 95% of the time at anything less than WOT and the throttle response is much better in that range with the 2nd generation Escalade.

I drive both older and newer models every week and never felt better throttle response from the older models, but my cars and trucks are tuned for the way I want them to perform, if you're trying to tell me that drive by wire is not as responsive as the old throttle cable that is just not true, or todays race cars would not be using it. Now maybe it is not set correctly, I have driven BMW's that lack throttle response until you really get into the throttle, but again I could tune that out of the car very easily, and on the Escalade's we have seen it was more a tune up issue and we could restore the good throttle response afterwards.

Rockey
03-20-12, 08:05 AM
I drive both older and newer models every week and never felt better throttle response from the older models, but my cars and trucks are tuned for the way I want them to perform, if you're trying to tell me that drive by wire is not as responsive as the old throttle cable that is just not true, or todays race cars would not be using it. Now maybe it is not set correctly, I have driven BMW's that lack throttle response until you really get into the throttle, but again I could tune that out of the car very easily, and on the Escalade's we have seen it was more a tune up issue and we could restore the good throttle response afterwards.

I'm not comparing a modified vehicle to a stock one. Lets keep it apples to apples. A bone stock 02' 6.0 vs a bone stock 08' 6.2. Just comparing tip in throttle response. Compare tipping into the throttle (25%-50%) while normal cruising compared to the other then the 6.0 will accelerate better. Go ahead and try it - bone stock vehicles. The drive by wire will need to be tuned in order to have equal throttle response because it has been limited by the programming (torque tables, throttle blade position)

hcvone
03-20-12, 12:10 PM
I'm not comparing a modified vehicle to a stock one. Lets keep it apples to apples. A bone stock 02' 6.0 vs a bone stock 08' 6.2. Just comparing tip in throttle response. Compare tipping into the throttle (25%-50%) while normal cruising compared to the other then the 6.0 will accelerate better. Go ahead and try it - bone stock vehicles. The drive by wire will need to be tuned in order to have equal throttle response because it has been limited by the programming (torque tables, throttle blade position)

I am driving an 03' today with 25k miles on it, then drove a stock 10' at my local Chevy dealership while picking up parts, both are stock and the 10' had much better throttle response. You better check because I am pretty sure that all Escalade since 2002 have been drive by wire throttle, I am trying to confirm that now. ;)

----------

My Caddy service manager says all Escalade's from 2002 - 2012 are all drive by wire throttle, so there must be another reason. :)

Playdrv4me
03-20-12, 01:43 PM
I don't know what to tell you Carl, it IS different. There have been more than a few threads on this subject and the throttle mapping (for various reasons, including to protect the transmission) for these Escalade is just not as aggressive. Keep in mind I'm talking about the ones which I've had experience with, which is 2007 and 2008. For all I know 2009+ was fixed. However, you're not the only person on this forum who has owned or driven a dozen Escalades and I have to imagine that this is one of the reasons SprintBooster exists for this application in the first place. Note that it does *NOT* exist for 2002-2006 Escalades: http://www.sprintboostersales.com/sprint-booster.cfm?make=Cadillac

You ARE correct that the older Escalade was also throttle by wire, and I don't think I ever said it wasn't in my post. However, when this first came up after we got our first one, I *do* remember ASKING if my '03 and '06s were cabled throttle because it felt so much different.

K9Caddy
03-20-12, 02:04 PM
Has anyone used this "sprintbooster"? I've never heard of it and it looks like a gimmick to me...

Playdrv4me
03-20-12, 02:11 PM
Has anyone used this "sprintbooster"? I've never heard of it and it looks like a gimmick to me...

If you take some time to do a simple Google search you'll find reviews plastered all over the place such as here: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/352564-Sprint-Booster-review

People who understand what the product does generally give it a glowing review. Idiots who think that it's supposed to somehow make the car FASTER bash it without understanding what its purpose is. I was introduced to it during my ownership of a Crossfire SRT6 (essentially an SLK32 AMG with a roof) after being extremely disappointed with the Mercedes throttle tip in. It is a very popular upgrade at the Crossfire board.

However, the validity of the SprintBooster is not at issue here, the discussion relates to the throttle mapping from the factory. I'm sure this sort of thing could be just as easily corrected with a Predator programmer, or any of the other numerous electronic gizmos that talk to the ECU.

K9Caddy
03-20-12, 02:27 PM
Yeah, I can do a "simple" google search and get online reviews, but the validity of them is a toss up! I've been modifying my vehicles for many years and been on many different forums, and I've never heard of this before. Hence, the reason I am having mixed thoughts on this.

IMO, for the cost of that device, you might as well get a tune or a Diablosport and be done with it. That device just makes no sense to me...

hcvone
03-20-12, 02:36 PM
I don't know what to tell you Carl, it IS different. There have been more than a few threads on this subject and the throttle mapping (for various reasons, including to protect the transmission) for these Escalade is just not as aggressive. Keep in mind I'm talking about the ones which I've had experience with, which is 2007 and 2008. For all I know 2009+ was fixed. However, you're not the only person on this forum who has owned or driven a dozen Escalades and I have to imagine that this is one of the reasons SprintBooster exists for this application in the first place. Note that it does *NOT* exist for 2002-2006 Escalades: http://www.sprintboostersales.com/sprint-booster.cfm?make=Cadillac

You ARE correct that the older Escalade was also throttle by wire, and I don't think I ever said it wasn't in my post. However, when this first came up after we got our first one, I *do* remember ASKING if my '03 and '06s were cabled throttle because it felt so much different.

I believe you, I just have not seen it on any of my trucks, and you are correct I personally know several people that have had or have as many Escalade's as me, we service many of them, I read about problems on the Forum, but many of the people are the same using regular gas in a 400 plus hp engine, so there could be some of the problem in performance, there are Tech II Tool adjustments for throttle sensors too. Many companies make products like this, what it does it lies to the computer about the position of the gas pedal, BMW's have a real problem with this. Note they do not list any CHEVY'S before 2006 too, I am sure they started with 2007 Escalade because of the model change. They sell all kinds of things that do nothing, check out a JC Whitney catalog some time. You are just not describing how my Escalade's perform, I am talking stock right off the dealers lot, well in my case after I use up the tank of regular fuel they are kind enough to give me. :)

Playdrv4me
03-20-12, 02:59 PM
Yeah, I can do a "simple" google search and get online reviews, but the validity of them is a toss up! I've been modifying my vehicles for many years and been on many different forums, and I've never heard of this before. Hence, the reason I am having mixed thoughts on this.

IMO, for the cost of that device, you might as well get a tune or a Diablosport and be done with it. That device just makes no sense to me...

Yes, of course, as I mentioned before, if those power programmers have a similar function then by all means that is another way to handle the problem.

And I think Carl and I are on the same page now. Also, I think different people respond differently to the way the throttle behaves. I think that is why this issue DOES come up every so often, but isn't constantly discussed, and when it DOES come up, most jump in immediately and say their Escalades are plenty quick.

I know for a fact that in addition to the others who have mentioned this in their own threads that myself, my brother and Jesda have all noticed the same thing on the 'Lades I've had. It was most dramatic when you get out of the 'Lade and then get into a car with a cabled throttle and a decent amount of power, like Jesda's old 2001 STS or my old 2000 Expedition 5.4L. I always remember that my first few presses on the throttle of those cars after driving around the Escalade for even a little while, would almost jerk me back in the seat because the throttle response was much more immediate.

A little bit ago I got to thinking about all the reasons that GM would benefit from this design and why it got more pronounced after 2007 and then it hit me. 2007 is the year that the 5/100 power train warranty came into effect. By easing the throttle input, there's reduced wear and tear on EVERY part of the driveline, from the engine itself, down to the transmission, axles, transfer case and differentials. All of the key parts covered by the 5/100 warranty. It also helps to generate a perception of better fuel economy, and maybe even ACTUAL fuel economy.

And again, I am not endorsing the Sprint Booster. I merely bring it up because I think this problem of throttle "feel" has become more and more prevalent as electronic throttles become more common, and I think a lot of times people were just told "you're imagining it, push the pedal harder", when it is in fact taking the enjoyment away for some of us.

hcvone
03-20-12, 03:18 PM
Remember one thing as well, GM does not set these trucks up for performance, they are set up to run middle of the road performance, and for most people that is fine, of course we are not most people, and everyone here uses their truck just a little different, you also have to take into account the length of gas pedal travel compared to another truck or car, just because it's the same model doesn't mean the travel lenght is the same, did you ever notice that different shoes can make you push the gas pedal in a different place giving you a quicker take off

Playdrv4me
03-20-12, 03:27 PM
Remember one thing as well, GM does not set these trucks up for performance, they are set up to run middle of the road performance, and for most people that is fine, of course we are not most people, and everyone here uses their truck just a little different, you also have to take into account the length of gas pedal travel compared to another truck or car, just because it's the same model doesn't mean the travel lenght is the same, did you ever notice that different shoes can make you push the gas pedal in a different place giving you a quicker take off

That's probably the biggest irony of the situation. The reason that I DON'T have power programming tools or any of that on my truck is because I don't rush around everywhere with my foot buried in the throttle. I spend more of my time in the "easy" part at the beginning of the pedal travel taking it slow, so the lack of acceleration is, in fact, more pronounced for me as it requires more effort than I like to give to get it really moving.

Yes, I've noticed the shoe thing.

hcvone
03-20-12, 04:22 PM
That's probably the biggest irony of the situation. The reason that I DON'T have power programming tools or any of that on my truck is because I don't rush around everywhere with my foot buried in the throttle. I spend more of my time in the "easy" part at the beginning of the pedal travel taking it slow, so the lack of acceleration is, in fact, more pronounced for me as it requires more effort than I like to give to get it really moving.

Yes, I've noticed the shoe thing.

But remember one thing, you don't have to have your foot on the floor to make the programmer useful, with shift control and some code resetting can pay for itself, plus it's smoother thru the full rpm range, low end too. I find if I want good gas mileage I put the seat all the way back and then I can barely press the gas. ;) I just put a 5000 gallon gas tank in at my ny home, them snowmobiles are thrusty. :)

Playdrv4me
03-20-12, 06:55 PM
I just had occasion to witness the severity of this phenomenon *AGAIN* today. I went and test drove a 2001 E38 Sport a few hours ago, and after driving around my "sluggish" Merc and Cadillac, I got in the BMW and almost plowed into the car behind me as I was backing out. There's more to it than just the amount of pedal travel before engagement, I also noticed that the pedal in the BMW required almost no effort to push. When I got back in the SL and my muscle memory kicked in, the car almost didn't move after having been in that BMW. And keep in mind BMWs are one of the bigger offenders of this problem (also electronic throttle), so that is saying a lot.

This is, of course, picking nits over an otherwise excellent vehicle. But it's something that is a real issue. I think the Escalade has an easier throttle than the Merc, but the BMW blew both of them away in this respect. Amazingly, this is even considering the Merc is about 318hp and similar torque specs, while the BMW is just 282. I'm sure there's gearing differences etc, but at the end of the day I was flying in the BMW and had to catch myself speeding several times during the test drive. It was a nice feeling.

hcvone
03-21-12, 07:20 AM
I just had occasion to witness the severity of this phenomenon *AGAIN* today. I went and test drove a 2001 E38 Sport a few hours ago, and after driving around my "sluggish" Merc and Cadillac, I got in the BMW and almost plowed into the car behind me as I was backing out. There's more to it than just the amount of pedal travel before engagement, I also noticed that the pedal in the BMW required almost no effort to push. When I got back in the SL and my muscle memory kicked in, the car almost didn't move after having been in that BMW. And keep in mind BMWs are one of the bigger offenders of this problem (also electronic throttle), so that is saying a lot.

This is, of course, picking nits over an otherwise excellent vehicle. But it's something that is a real issue. I think the Escalade has an easier throttle than the Merc, but the BMW blew both of them away in this respect. Amazingly, this is even considering the Merc is about 318hp and similar torque specs, while the BMW is just 282. I'm sure there's gearing differences etc, but at the end of the day I was flying in the BMW and had to catch myself speeding several times during the test drive. It was a nice feeling.

Lube your gas pedal, you will not believe how easy it will be, there is a lot of dust in that area around the gas pedal, one of my guys does the door hinges and all items like that, as you said the first time I stepped on the gas I thought the pedal that broke because it was so easy to push, and it sure was not like that an hour ago when i got there, they are always doing things to my cars/trucks and I don't know until later, parts on then parts off, it's like wax on and wax off.