: Cadillac ATS-V vs. BMW M3 - Motor Trend



JD03Cobra
02-08-12, 03:39 PM
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1204_cadillac_ats_v_bmw_m3/

"With a 3.0-liter twin-turbo V-6 whispered to be in GM's pipeline, it seems a natural choice for the ATS-V. The other school of thought, given GM's history, is a small-block V-8, possibly the direct-injected 5.5-liter rumored for the 2014 Corvette. Either way, expect comparable output to the M3."

Lord Cadillac
02-08-12, 06:14 PM
Thank you for posting up the article. Boy are there some silly comments...

0AT E03
02-08-12, 07:02 PM
I firmly believe MotorTrend is wrong on the 5.5L displacement. They've been told many times that the 5.5L is a race only displacement yet they still insist the next gen SBC will be 5.5L.

rand49er
02-08-12, 08:30 PM
Jason, how does this square with your cousin testing a 3.6TT?

MT's fixation on the 5.5L V8 sounds like it might be just as misguided as it's prediction of the 3.0L being the V powerplant.

JD03Cobra
02-08-12, 09:38 PM
Jason, how does this square with your cousin testing a 3.6TT?

MT's fixation on the 5.5L V8 sounds like it might be just as misguided as it's prediction of the 3.0L being the V powerplant.

He's testing the 3.6 TT...I wouldn't put too much into anything Motor Trend writes but it's sure fun to see how these two cars will eventually battle it out. If BMW goes with the V8 it certainly makes things interesting. Maybe the 5.5L is on deck as a backup plan :rolleyes:

rand49er
02-08-12, 10:11 PM
But, as LS2 MN6 mentions, the 5.5L is "race only."

For sure, GM isn't testing/considering just one motor, though they may be leaning toward something, it may well come down to one-upping the competition or at least matching them.

Don't know how the rest of you guys feel, but this speculating/wishing/hoping is downright fun. We haven't yet reached the pitch of when the V2 motor was being discussed, but maybe it'll come.

0AT E03
02-09-12, 07:06 PM
I would imagine the V is a MY2016 program and they honestly don't need to make any real decisions until just before they build "mules" in Q4, things can change.

The new V8 is still a 6.2L. That's common knowledge with everyone but the idiots at MT.

M5eater
02-09-12, 07:13 PM
The new BMW style is growing on me. That F30 rendering I'm sorry to say is better than the ATS rendering MT has up.

0AT E03
02-09-12, 09:10 PM
The new BMW style is growing on me. That F30 rendering I'm sorry to say is better than the ATS rendering MT has up.

I read about a guy having sat in both, and now driven a 3.6L (Auto) ATS and a 2.0T (Manual) ATS, and says the BMW interior is nicer, and that the ATS automatic transmission tuning (which isn't final yet, according to him) sucks...

He plans on to driving a 328i manual and a later PPV LTG ATS to make an honest judgement.

M5eater
02-09-12, 09:20 PM
I read about a guy having sat in both, and now driven a 3.6L (Auto) ATS and a 2.0T (Manual) ATS, and says the BMW interior is nicer, and that the ATS automatic transmission tuning (which isn't final yet, according to him) sucks...

He plans on to driving a 328i manual and a later PPV LTG ATS to make an honest judgement.
The ZF 8 speeds are very good transmissions, and the optional sport ZF8 speed in the 335i is almost DCT like in it's shift quick-ness. Honestly, my next car will have to be a manual or DCT, preferably the latter. Half the reason I wasn't bothered with the 6L90E is because it's so simple that some of it's short-falls can be tuned out. That won't suffice for me next time. Worse, there's no way around the fact that a conventional auto ATS-V will be at a noticeable disadvantage when it competes with the fine-tuned DCT's from BMW, Audi, Lexus and Mercedes in their next generation compacts. The only one from that list that will offer a manual will be the M3, and the latter will have very much improved transmissions by comparison in both shift quality and number of gears.

For the regular ATS I'm not sure it will matter a lot, infact it will help it in the aftermarket since as previously, the GM auto's are easier to tune and build power with. Or it might not matter at all if you figure the 'hot' tuner will be a FE3 manual 2.0T.

JimmyH
02-10-12, 03:54 PM
That article reads like they pieced it together from blog articles.

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All this talk of exotic transmissions has me thinking I will never again own a car beyond its powertrain warranty.

thebigjimsho
02-11-12, 09:14 PM
Manuals, bitch.

M5eater
02-11-12, 09:19 PM
Manuals, bitch.
Want to trade cars?

I'll even throw in the midnight sapele...

seems fair to me.

thebigjimsho
02-11-12, 09:21 PM
As tempting as that sounds(DAMMIT I want that midnight sapele), the TR6060 is DAMN good...

JimmyH
02-12-12, 09:26 PM
It is when they give you a decent clutch to operate it with.

thebigjimsho
02-13-12, 10:16 AM
Indeed.

concorso
02-13-12, 04:05 PM
I love Motortrend. Just when I think life is hindering me from staying up to date with the auto industry, I realize that a major publication is constantly out-to-lunch. Seriously, how long will MT continue to quote the rumors about the race 5.5L as fact, even tho GM has allready said theyre wrong. To answer my own question with another question, how long until the new small block comes out?

JimmyH
02-13-12, 08:12 PM
New generations of the small block usually coincide with generations of the Corvette.

M5eater
02-13-12, 08:22 PM
New generations of the small block usually coincide with generations of the Corvette.
Which brings us to a good question;
I wonder how well the LS motors will age.
The original SBC and carbureted motors have lasted because of their simplicity and huge aftermarket for all cars up to the 90s.

The LS is more complex, but less complex than what a D/I Gen V will be.

Do you think that it'll simply evaporate into history; a victim of the world's increasingly disposable consumerism, or will it evolve, gracefully, and eventually replace the old carb'd motors for the sake of fuel efficiency and power output?

I think in 20 years, no one will care to put on in anything. Either they'll go for a good-ole carb'd motor, or fork over for a GenV or whatever iteration has the best fuel economy and highest specific output.

JimmyH
02-13-12, 08:42 PM
I don't think anyone knows, not even the manufacturers. Only one thing seems certain; the face of the automotive landscape is changing, as it always does.

rand49er
02-13-12, 09:07 PM
... in 20 years ...I'll still be here ... posting pithy nothings, and tbjs will be up to 100k poasts.

0AT E03
02-13-12, 10:19 PM
The LS Series (Gen III and Gen IV) will be around for a while, as the Aftermarket (including GM Performance Parts) is steering people with "classic" cars to use these engines. The original LT (Gen II) has some following still.

The next gen SBC is again an LT (called LT1 no relation to the 90's LT) and it has the features everyone thinks it will have. I have a harder time seeing GM moving to the aftermarket with this one as a lot more vehicle integration is required. The LS motors are still drop n swap type motors unlike the new LFX V6, LCV 2.5L I4 or LTG 2.0L Turbo4 which are highly integrated engines.

The new LT (Gen V) will be like this, and the "depth" of this engine family will be small, cars will be: Corvette including Z06, ATS-V is a maybe, CTS-V, Alpha Camaro, and that's about it... The VF Commodore (aka Zeta II or Z2SC) is more than likely sticking with the LS series based motor until 2016, at which point it will probably get the base LT (or a derivative of that). The K2XX trucks and SUV's will get versions of this engine and that honestly will be the only volume.

Let's face it the days of 10-15 different car models using a "hi-po" V8 are over.

For the record the LS (Gen IV only) was in the following cars:

Corvette including Z06 & ZR1
Zeta Camaro including ZL1
GTO/Monaro
G8 GXP
CTS-V 1st Gen
CTS-V 2nd Gen
TBSS
Saab 9-7X Aero
SSR

Technically the LS4 is an LS (even in design) so we can count the

Grand Prix GXP
Impala SS
Monte Carlo SS
LaCrosse Super

For a total of 13 (not including trims, but including generations)

JimmyH
02-13-12, 10:43 PM
I don't understand why they reuse LSx and LTx so much. Why not use some different codes?

rand49er
02-13-12, 10:56 PM
Yeah, that LT thing confused me at first until I realized there was no way they were going to use an optispark in a new, 580 hp Camaro.

0AT E03
02-14-12, 07:03 AM
I don't understand why they reuse LSx and LTx so much. Why not use some different codes?

GM's RPO codes are broken into sections. All engines begin with an L and have to be within a certain range of the alphabet.

concorso
02-14-12, 09:48 PM
The LS Series (Gen III and Gen IV) will be around for a while, as the Aftermarket (including GM Performance Parts) is steering people with "classic" cars to use these engines. The original LT (Gen II) has some following still.

The next gen SBC is again an LT (called LT1 no relation to the 90's LT) and it has the features everyone thinks it will have. I have a harder time seeing GM moving to the aftermarket with this one as a lot more vehicle integration is required. The LS motors are still drop n swap type motors unlike the new LFX V6, LCV 2.5L I4 or LTG 2.0L Turbo4 which are highly integrated engines.

The new LT (Gen V) will be like this, and the "depth" of this engine family will be small, cars will be: Corvette including Z06, ATS-V is a maybe, CTS-V, Alpha Camaro, and that's about it... The VF Commodore (aka Zeta II or Z2SC) is more than likely sticking with the LS series based motor until 2016, at which point it will probably get the base LT (or a derivative of that). The K2XX trucks and SUV's will get versions of this engine and that honestly will be the only volume.

Let's face it the days of 10-15 different car models using a "hi-po" V8 are over.

For the record the LS (Gen IV only) was in the following cars:

Corvette including Z06 & ZR1
Zeta Camaro including ZL1
GTO/Monaro
G8 GXP
CTS-V 1st Gen
CTS-V 2nd Gen
TBSS
Saab 9-7X Aero
SSR

Technically the LS4 is an LS (even in design) so we can count the

Grand Prix GXP
Impala SS
Monte Carlo SS
LaCrosse Super

For a total of 13 (not including trims, but including generations)Thats also just in America. The G8 for example was sold as a Vauxxy and a Holden, maybe even an Opel. Half the fun cars in Aussieland use LS engines. :)

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I don't understand why they reuse LSx and LTx so much. Why not use some different codes?Wasnt the LS6 designation both a C5 Z06 and a C2 Vette engine?

NHRATA01
02-15-12, 12:43 PM
No. But it was an available engine in the '70 Chevelle SS, a 454 BBC. There was also an LS5 variant shared with the C3 Vette. However the Vette never got the LS6 though an even more powerful 454 dubbed LS7 was supposed to be an option but only made it in some prototypes. It was one of the rare few years in Chevy history that something outside of a Corvette had the highest rated engine in the division.

EDIT: Correction so after some research, there were <200 1971 Corvettes sold with the LS6 454 (with 425hp vs the 450 in the '70 Chevelle).