: ATS-V wishlist??



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bruff1977
01-20-12, 06:22 PM
Since there isn't an ATS-V thread group yet, it made sense to ask here... And I know it'll eventually focus on the powertrain... :-) So what would you like? Let's try to discuss everything.

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Rand49er brought up a few good points which should very well make it to production. Wider wheels/tires, mesh grille and an overall MORE agressive appearance. Personally, I would welcome functional fender vents or a tasteful vented hood. 19" wheels with sticky summer rubber and six piston front/four piston rear Brembos.

Lord Cadillac
01-22-12, 08:05 PM
Since there isn't an ATS-V thread group yet, it made sense to ask here... And I know it'll eventually focus on the powertrain... :-) So what would you like? Let's try to discuss everything.

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Rand49er brought up a few good points which should very well make it to production. Wider wheels/tires, mesh grille and an overall MORE agressive appearance. Personally, I would welcome functional fender vents or a tasteful vented hood. 19" wheels with sticky summer rubber and six piston front/four piston rear Brembos.

What more is there? Rear spoiler. Maybe ground effects (or whatever they call them nowadays) as an option. Definitely a more aggressive hood. Four exhaust pipes out the back (two on each side). Unique colors might be nice.

JimmyH
01-22-12, 08:39 PM
Superior handling.

thebigjimsho
01-22-12, 10:38 PM
Tracy.

rand49er
01-22-12, 11:57 PM
Certainly more than just a higher-performance motor. Definitely a mesh grill, more rubber, 420 hp or more, availablity of white as an exterior color, ...

I can think of more (HUD, hand ebrake, form-fitting seats, etc), but I'd settle for the first list.

0AT E03
01-23-12, 09:59 AM
HUD is on the base ATS. GM is putting HUD in everything now. I'd expect the Mesh Grill, 4 Pipes, Better Seats, and of course a Body Kit.

M5eater
01-23-12, 10:13 AM
19"s maxium, I'm tired of everything rolling on 20's because it's cool. Functionally from a performance car perspective, it doesn't make sense.

Unique colors was a good idea, mono-color matched or sueded headliners would be my thing to have.

a DCT would be a wet-dream, but it won't happen.

I'd also like some kind of acutal performance parts program, nothing fancy, forged rims, exhaust, diff cooler, *maybe* engine power uppers or something of the like. The germans are all over that, Cadillac should be too instead of the late to the party performance rotors and no-show diff cooler. This will acutally be a legitimate concern, because if they're shoving an all-new 1-off powertrain in there, they need to bump-start the aftermarket for us.

WillK
01-23-12, 03:50 PM
I don't think I'd be releasing any kind of secret if I mentioned GM is a global company and we have some Germans of our own.

M5eater
01-23-12, 04:08 PM
yes, the question though is are our germans better than their germans? :D

JimmyH
01-23-12, 05:03 PM
Certainly more than just a higher-performance motor. Definitely a mesh grill, more rubber, 420 hp or more, availablity of white as an exterior color, ...

I can think of more (HUD, hand ebrake, form-fitting seats, etc), but I'd settle for the first list.

I am sure it will get all that. But I would like to revise that to electronic parking brake like the V2. Hand brake levers take up very valuable console space.





19"s maxium, I'm tired of everything rolling on 20's because it's cool.

+1000

I would like to see 18" wheels. fwiw, the ATS on display had 18" wheels with VERY low profile tires. It was stated here somewhere that the Alpha was designed around smaller wheels. I wouldn't be surprised if the ATS-V rolls on 18s.

I too am tired of sedans rolling on SUV wheels.

thebigjimsho
01-23-12, 05:22 PM
After a couple of years, I will admit the electric e-brake is the pimp. I will trade my old handle for the little button any day. Having a hill holder is very helpful...

JimmyH
01-23-12, 05:35 PM
I just want the console space back.

0AT E03
01-23-12, 05:44 PM
I don't think I'd be releasing any kind of secret if I mentioned GM is a global company and we have some Germans of our own.

No one, and I mean no one, likes GME. I deal with them daily, the most infuriating people possible (and I work for Germans).

rand49er
01-23-12, 10:58 PM
I just want the console space back.For more beverages?

M5eater
01-23-12, 11:13 PM
No one, and I mean no one, likes GME. I deal with them daily, the most infuriating people possible (and I work for Germans).
GME doesn't even like GME.. If GME had it's way they would have branched off to re-form opel a LONG time ago.

WillK
01-24-12, 09:54 PM
yes, the question though is are our germans better than their germans? :D

Well... they're Germans. They have a way of doing things, and that way is very rigid. They do some things well, and you can take their word for it if you don't believe it. That's my experience with Germans in the past, and I haven't seen that there's a great deal of difference in that regard from one German engineering organization vs another. For that matter, the Japanese are that way to a slightly lesser degree - but it can vary more from one corporate entity to another.

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No one, and I mean no one, likes GME. I deal with them daily, the most infuriating people possible (and I work for Germans).

I'm new to the whole thing here, heck a year ago I was among the masses that was unfamiliar with the V series, so correct me if I'm wrong - but I get the sense that the autobahn is a lot of what's behind the existance of the V series.

0AT E03
01-24-12, 10:32 PM
I'm new to the whole thing here, heck a year ago I was among the masses that was unfamiliar with the V series, so correct me if I'm wrong - but I get the sense that the autobahn is a lot of what's behind the existence of the V series.

I'd say the V-Series exists to combat the brand cachet of M or AMG both. M originally was about homologation of a motorsports model and then about bringing motorsports tech to the street. AMG was basically an aftermarket tuner that Daimler snapped up. I wouldn't say either (and thus the V-series) are directly a result of the autobahn. Regardless of country people always have wanted to go faster. Japan even is getting into the game with the Lexus F line and I think Infiniti has some sort of line on the G3x series for sports enthusiasts.

Ergo, it's all about Marketing.

JimmyH
01-24-12, 11:14 PM
For more beverages?

Believe it or not, I have managed to get power cords tangled up on the hand brake while driving.

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I'd say the V-Series exists to combat the brand cachet of M or AMG both. M originally was about homologation of a motorsports model and then about bringing motorsports tech to the street. AMG was basically an aftermarket tuner that Daimler snapped up. I wouldn't say either (and thus the V-series) are directly a result of the autobahn. Regardless of country people always have wanted to go faster. Japan even is getting into the game with the Lexus F line and I think Infiniti has some sort of line on the G3x series for sports enthusiasts.

Ergo, it's all about Marketing.

It really is about marketing to the masses. But for those of us who fell in love with the original V (first gen CTS-V) the V means much more. To us, it's kind of an exclusive band of brothers. Or at least it was.

M5eater
01-24-12, 11:49 PM
It really is about marketing to the masses. But for those of us who fell in love with the original V (first gen CTS-V) the V means much more. To us, it's kind of an exclusive band of brothers. Or at least it was.
If it were between the self-masterbatory threads and replies on M5board or the V2 section on CF.. I'll take CF all day.

Aside from that, the community difference I would say is overstated after looking at both forums for a bit longer. The V1 crowd might be a bit more laid back or communicative, certinally less ego and more vette owner esque and maybe they know a few people around here personally. V2 people are a bit younger, typically come from other cars and are mostly starting new relationships here, but I still see 'groups' of people that know each other personally or arrange Get togethers.

Bottom line,
V1 people bought a V because it was a Cadillac with a Vette motor, it was almost a niche car.
V2 people bought a V because it was a 4door sedan that could beat an M5 or E63, and it had an automatic, which opened it up to younger people that might not have manual experience or prefer the idea of a paddle shift transmission. It was a car that forced people to start taking Cadillac seriously.

The difference is the V1 sold ~ 10.5K units, the V2 will might triple that, it's natural that you get more 'passing through till the lease is up or the next hot thing is out' when you have a higher volume car. Give it a few more years, and I bet you'll start to see the V2 community more closely resemble the V1 community as the fad-buyers move on and only people that *really* loved the car stay behind.

thebigjimsho
01-25-12, 12:55 AM
The V1 borders on cult car. It started a new game, a super sedan from America that many could afford. Like the original SHO. Guys who bought them tend to really love them. Not like the use them, abuse them, buy a different color and do it all over again like the buyers in V2.

Like the old SHO, the V1 was an M5 beater. It was standard only and it was good enough to make people leave their favorite marques to get one...

Lord Cadillac
01-25-12, 01:00 PM
Let's get back on topic with the ATS-V wish list - unless we have nothing further to add...

WillK
01-25-12, 01:05 PM
Well, glad to have started a conversation, but it seems that I was thinking from a different perspective.

There's a lot more difference than engine between a car with a top speed of 165 MPH and 200 MPH.

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Let's get back on topic with the ATS-V wish list - unless we have nothing further to add...

Actually, now that you mention it, I'd be interested in hearing it from a perspective of things that folks have liked about previous V series they want to be sure that they see in the ATS-V.

M5eater
01-25-12, 01:38 PM
Actually, now that you mention it, I'd be interested in hearing it from a perspective of things that folks have liked about previous V series they want to be sure that they see in the ATS-V.

The ATS has the potential to be a cult-car that the 1st gen is/was, but I can also easily see it being a mix of people like with the V2. Espically since the M3 Sedan will not come in F3 flavor, and that leaves the B8 RS4(if audi even imports it over here..which is always in question), C63 or (presumably) the ATS-V

JimmyH
01-25-12, 01:53 PM
Let's get back on topic with the ATS-V wish list - unless we have nothing further to add...

I think discussion about V ownership is relevant. At least, my hopes that the ATS-V is more of a back-to-basics sport sedan like the first generation CTS-V. The second gen V is an amazing machine, no doubt. But it lacks some of the purity of the V1.

Which is my point. I hope they don't go overboard with the ATS-V just to say GM has their own M3. If I want an M3, I will buy an M3. I don't want a BMW. I want a V.

M5eater
01-25-12, 02:35 PM
I think discussion about V ownership is relevant. At least, my hopes that the ATS-V is more of a back-to-basics sport sedan like the first generation CTS-V. The second gen V is an amazing machine, no doubt. But it lacks some of the purity of the V1.


what you talking about willis? The V2 has another button for the soft/firm setting on the suspension over the V1, and variable steering, that's it. The E60/F10 M5 and E63 AMG have 20 different acyonyms just to describe the different eletronic nannies keeping you on the road, nevermind the adjustable shift firmness, throttle response, diff lockup , engine output control, ect.. that the F10 Has. The V2 is practicallythe village idiot of the midsized super sedan market, and the ATS will likely have no more than the V2 has right now. Aside from the third magneride setting presumably, and *fingers crossed* for launch control or something similar. That's what Cadillac's targeting as mentioned previously (or in another thread) back to basics and grappling onto the purest drivers car that BMW's forgotten how to build. Plus, it makes things cheaper too when you're not paying for 5 different sensors per wheel and the software, control modules and wiring to go with it.

rand49er
01-25-12, 03:13 PM
... I hope they don't go overboard with the ATS-V just to say GM has their own M3. If I want an M3, I will buy an M3. I don't want a BMW. I want a V.This IS a good point. We don't want a clone.

And, personally, I don't want a car that's too refined. That's sort of the way I see the V2, at least from what I recall of OldRoadDawg's auto trans V2 for the two miles I drove it. It's hard to define because I WANT luxury, but I don't want it overly refined.

As far as straying off the topic a bit, it's the last seven years of V1 ownership experience that forms many of these wish-list items for me, thus as far as the discussion of V1 and V2 cars goes, it's pertinent. The V1 community has really changed from guys who got a cat-back were the trailblazers to guys who have a stroker motor with a 10" rearend are almost invoke a yawn.

M5eater
01-25-12, 03:25 PM
The V1 community has really changed from guys who got a cat-back were the trailblazers to guys who have a stroker motor with a 10" rearend are almost invoke a yawn.

That's sort of a given for any LS powered car. There's so much aftermarket you can go crazy without blowing up the savings account. Personally the only thing you're loosing is braggin rights on an internet forum, which I couldnt care less about; you're not running into 427 CTS-V's on the street everywhere you look. However, the ATS-V will break the trend without an LS powered engine, which then comes more expensive aftermarket and limited power increases, which doesn't make for a good trade-off IMO. I'd rather *not* hand over a $30K check to Dinan for an extra .7L and 130HP.

Lord Cadillac
01-25-12, 05:33 PM
I'd rather *not* hand over a $30K check to Dinan for an extra .7L and 130HP.

You don't. You hand over a few hundred dollars to <insert vendor here>. If the ATS-V has a twin turbo V6, it'll be easy and inexpensive to modify - just like a TT Supra or 335i.

As for keeping the discussion on topic - V-Series talk is fine. I felt it was going to go away from even that. In any event, just take my request to stay on topic as a reminder to do so. No big deal.

M5eater
01-25-12, 06:46 PM
You don't. You hand over a few hundred dollars to <insert vendor here>. If the ATS-V has a twin turbo V6, it'll be easy and inexpensive to modify - just like a TT Supra or 335i.
I was going for some dramatic effect there, if aftermarket is similar to what I came from (a B5 S4) then I would be mostly happy. The problem is those cars have depreciated into nothing and an ATS-V would be a 60K vehicle with (presumably) a 1-off engine.

Lord Cadillac
01-25-12, 06:53 PM
I was going for some dramatic effect there, if aftermarket is similar to what I came from (a B5 S4) then I would be mostly happy. The problem is those cars have depreciated into nothing and an ATS-V would be a 60K vehicle with (presumably) a 1-off engine.

I love the B5 S4. In fact, I'd like to own one some day. I think it's a great sleeper and easily modified. As for the ATS-V engine being "one off" - do you mean you think it'll only be available in one vehicle? Because it's going to be in the third generation non-V CTS, the XTS (as soon as it's ready), the fourth generation Escalade and other GM vehicles such as the Camaro and Corvette. The LF3 is going to have a huge aftermarket. I'm all ready for it. (http://lf3performance.com/) :p (it might be down for a few minutes. I need to update the software)

0AT E03
01-25-12, 07:48 PM
I don't think there will be much aftermarket on the LF3. The LNF had some following (that's the Sky Solstice Turbo) but nothing like an LS series engine.

Lord Cadillac
01-25-12, 08:46 PM
I don't think there will be much aftermarket on the LF3. The LNF had some following (that's the Sky Solstice Turbo) but nothing like an LS series engine.

That may be the case but I'm leaning toward a good aftermarket for any engine that can be used in a performance Camaro, V-Series Cadillac and possible Corvette.

Look at the aftermarket for the 335i. It's not an M3 - it's just a 3-Series with twin turbo.

M5eater
01-25-12, 08:55 PM
That may be the case but I'm leaning toward a good aftermarket for any engine that can be used in a performance Camaro, V-Series Cadillac and possible Corvette.
I agree. I was indeed leaning toward it being in a single car. If it's going to be in a vette or camaro, I don't think there's any question anymore that this engine will have a long life of widely avaliable aftermarket.


I don't think there will be much aftermarket on the LF3. The LNF had some following (that's the Sky Solstice Turbo) but nothing like an LS series engine.
There are two problems that happened there;
1) volume; the twin-scroll was only in the GXP and they made <3K of those...
2) brand image.

If Mr. Cadillac is correct, we're easily talking about a 100K+ unit engine here.

I love the B5 S4. In fact, I'd like to own one some day
It's a fantastic Vehicle, and anyone into sports sedans should own one at some point, and the old owners are dumping their K04 Stage 3 cars everywhere these days. You can pickup one for under $12K pretty easily.

Lord Cadillac
01-25-12, 09:47 PM
I have a friend who owns a dealership who also owes me money looking out for a B5 S4 for me. :)

Since both the next Camaro and CTS will be on the same Alpha platform as the ATS, there can be the same engine options available across the board.

That and several other GM models will get the LF3 engine, including the XTS, Escalade group (along with Chevy and GMC) and probably the Enclave, Traverse and Cadillac version of that crossover SUV.

0AT E03
01-25-12, 10:12 PM
That may be the case but I'm leaning toward a good aftermarket for any engine that can be used in a performance Camaro, V-Series Cadillac and possible Corvette.

Look at the aftermarket for the 335i. It's not an M3 - it's just a 3-Series with twin turbo.

It's not going in the Corvette, or the Camaro not even the Alpha Camaro as it will be too close in HP to the V8. Now the LTG Turbo might be seen in the Alpha Camaro instead of a V6. So you'd have it in the CTS (uplevel engine) and XTS (uplevel engine) not exactly performance burning cars. I sure hope they don't use the LF3 in the ATS-V it will hobble the aftermarket who will focus on the new LT1 V8, the uplevel version of that (you know it exists), and the LTG Turbo (which will be in tons of cars as the "hot" engine)

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I have a friend who owns a dealership who also owes me money looking out for a B5 S4 for me. :)

Since both the next Camaro and CTS will be on the same Alpha platform as the ATS, there can be the same engine options available across the board.

That and several other GM models will get the LF3 engine, including the XTS, Escalade group (along with Chevy and GMC) and probably the Enclave, Traverse and Cadillac version of that crossover SUV.

LF3 won't package in a FWD application (sans the Lacrosse, XTS and Impala), not enough room. You might see it in the trucks, but GM doesn't buy into Turbo's like Ford does. The V8 is too protected in the truck group, I'd expect the LFX to be in the Trucks.

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There are two problems that happened there;
1) volume; the twin-scroll was only in the GXP and they made <3K of those...
2) brand image.

If Mr. Cadillac is correct, we're easily talking about a 100K+ unit engine here.

Disagree, this is a low-volume engine. You'll be lucky to see 100k units across all lines. The total volume of the new CTS is rumored to be 50k, much lower than the current car. GM sees most current CTS owners moving to the ATS. So you'll see maybe 10k-20k LF3's assuming it takes off, remember it doesn't package with AWD. If ATS-V gets the engine it could very well be the "volume leader."

M5eater
01-25-12, 10:21 PM
You'll be lucky to see 100k units across all lines.
I was referring to across all lines. In any case, all it takes is demand, volume is typically just a helper. The B5 S4, Dodge Neon SRT-4, Evo , WRX STi's of their respective generations and similar other vehicles with *huge* followings all have sub 20K production numbers(the neon has < 21K technically).


So you'd have it in the CTS (uplevel engine) and XTS (uplevel engine) not exactly performance burning cars
There are plenty of people that modify the 5 series, e-class and A6 when F/I motors are available.

rand49er
01-25-12, 10:57 PM
Is the LF3 really rated at about 380 hp? That's not enough. It needs another 10% or more ... preferably more.

Lord Cadillac
01-25-12, 11:02 PM
The LF3 has over 400 horsepower. That's all I know so far.

If the turbo engine I've been hearing about for the Alpha Camaro is the "four" and not the "six", I'll be disappointed. I think there's plenty of room for a "fast" Camaro and a "very fast" Camaro. Same goes for the CTS.

0AT E03
01-26-12, 09:57 AM
The LF3 has over 400 horsepower. That's all I know so far.

If the turbo engine I've been hearing about for the Alpha Camaro is the "four" and not the "six", I'll be disappointed. I think there's plenty of room for a "fast" Camaro and a "very fast" Camaro. Same goes for the CTS.

We'll probably see a 300 HP Turbo 4, a 450-475 HP V8 and of course, eventually, a supercharged V8 making about 600 HP. No need to have a Turbo 6 making 20-50 HP less than the V8. The CTS doesn't need a regular V8. You'll go from a turbo 6 to a supercharged 8. Basically the LF3 and the new LT1 play in the same sandbox. Right? If you know the LT1 is in a car line, you can pretty much assume it won't have an LF3 and vice versa. The engines are just too close.

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I was referring to across all lines. In any case, all it takes is demand, volume is typically just a helper. The B5 S4, Dodge Neon SRT-4, Evo , WRX STi's of their respective generations and similar other vehicles with *huge* followings all have sub 20K production numbers(the neon has < 21K technically).


There are plenty of people that modify the 5 series, e-class and A6 when F/I motors are available.

Totally differnet cars, with 4-pots, but the LTG will have support like those cars for sure. The latter statement I don't know how much I agree with.

rand49er
01-26-12, 10:25 AM
I'm lost. So, where does that leave us for the ATS-V? Is there or is there not a TT3.6?

0AT E03
01-26-12, 11:11 AM
I'm lost. So, where does that leave us for the ATS-V? Is there or is there not a TT3.6?

I'm confused as to whether the LF3 is a 3.0TT or a 3.6TT. The ATS surely either gets the LF3 or the LT1 (which is a V8).

rand49er
01-26-12, 03:28 PM
I'll PM Jason.

Vrocks
01-26-12, 03:47 PM
- Small block V8 offered with the 7 speed manual and/or the 8 speed auto.

- If they forego using the small block V8, I'd love to see the 2.0T 4 put together with another 2.0T 4, for a 4.0L TT DOHC V8 with 500HP.

thebigjimsho
01-27-12, 09:34 AM
- Small block V8 offered with the 7 speed manual and/or the 8 speed auto.

- If they forego using the small block V8, I'd love to see the 2.0T 4 put together with another 2.0T 4, for a 4.0L TT DOHC V8 with 500HP.

Our own little 750iL...

al pettee
01-28-12, 07:11 PM
Supercharged, 6.2L pushrod V8 from the CTS-V, 6-speed manual, AWD.

thebigjimsho
01-29-12, 07:49 PM
No AWD. Ever.

0AT E03
01-29-12, 07:53 PM
No AWD. Ever.

:werd:

GM-4-LIFE
01-30-12, 03:32 PM
I want a 650 HP+ ATS-V. Heck, Ford already has 650 HP and 600 TQ in their 2013 GT500 coming in May and for less than $60K. GM has a lot of work to do on the ATS-V and next gen CTS-V in order to compete in the HP wars.

GM has the formula down with chassis refinement and handling and curb weight of the ATS, but they just need to dial up the power and I am ready to snatch one up! Of course, make mine an ATS-V COUPE!

JimmyH
01-30-12, 05:39 PM
I think you might see a 650 hp 3rd gen CTS-V. I would not expect that kind of power on the ATS-V though. Not if Cadillac are sticking to their credo of competing head to head with BMW.

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Besides which, I have heard stories that these 600+ hp cars are tricky to insure.

rand49er
01-30-12, 11:44 PM
650 hp in a 3400 lb car? That's a dream. Could it happen? Well, we didn't believe we'd see 400 hp in an '04 CTS-V, so who knows.

Personally, if we get a 3.6 TT with 440-450 hp and a warranty, I'd be thrilled.

M5eater
01-31-12, 12:01 AM
I think you might see a 650 hp 3rd gen CTS-V. I would not expect that kind of power on the ATS-V though. Not if Cadillac are sticking to their credo of competing head to head with BMW.[COLOR="Silver"]

Emissions regulation and rising fuel costs are probably going to choak the HP wars here shortly. I would be astonished if the next CTS used an engine that made more than 5% more than what the current one does. Since it's on an alpha platform (presumably) I'm betting it'll be a car that uses weight reduction and more efficient transmission choices to make it faster, me personally, I'm hoping there's some ceramic brake option of some sort. The Corvette guy's have had their fun with being exlusive, and every german super sedan has had them for a while now. I know in the real world they don't make sense, but neither does a 556hp sedan either.

A near 4000-4100lb CTS-V with DCT, ceramic brakes and F/I Gen V sounds like a winner to me, but I'd settle for any 3 of those.

Besides which, I have heard stories that these 600+ hp cars are tricky to insure.

Just ask a viper owner.

JimmyH
01-31-12, 12:33 AM
I am most interested in fuel economy these days. My next car has to be 30 mpg highway. Considering I am eeking out 24 with my Camaro, I am hopeful the ATS-V will be able to do it.

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The rumor mills are all pointing to 380 hp. If they can keep under 3700 lbs, I would be quite satisfied with that.

M5eater
01-31-12, 08:44 AM
[/COLOR]
The rumor mills are all pointing to 380 hp. If they can keep under 3700 lbs, I would be quite satisfied with that.
I hope not, an E60 Sedan with that wonderful V8 sometimes weighs under that much, and then you're talking about a V with 60HP more than the lower-spec'd V6, so it would need to be the lotus elise of the ATS line to make up for that, which would be hard to do seeing as you'll be able to spec magneride on the base ATS. An ATS-V needs 100Hp over the next lowest model, that's how these car's have worked for decades. That means 420+.

Lord Cadillac
01-31-12, 10:19 AM
Emissions regulations and rising fuel costs aren't the only things that are going to choke the horsepower wars. Cars are just getting too fast. And they're getting into the hands of irresponsible people. Eventually cars are going to have to slow down. I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point in the not too distant future, we're all racing cars not much faster than Toyota Corollas. We'll eventually get used to it and the cars doing 14 second quarter miles will feel fast again. 10 second cars all over the street is, honestly, ridiculous.

thebigjimsho
01-31-12, 03:37 PM
Right. 0-60 times for plebeian family sedans trump sports cars from 20 years ago. Consumption, not emmissions, will affect things. Even still, I think performance remains a priority for the US

GM-4-LIFE
01-31-12, 04:32 PM
I don't think the HP wars will end anytime soon. They are just getting started!

0AT E03
01-31-12, 04:54 PM
The US like many countries where space is plentiful crave speed.

If you see anything here in the US it will be the trend to raise speeds in the country and drop them in the city.

Super low speeds in Europe have never kept HP down. Consumption keeps HP from being in everyones hands, but there will always be places of cheap fuel and open spaces which shall demand high HP cars.

WillK
01-31-12, 05:10 PM
Quite frankly, I think fuel economy is probably forcing the use of technologies used to acheive performance to achieve economy. CAFE basicly outlaws affordability, so the time when twin turbos were used for performance are turned into the times where twin turbos are used for fuel efficiency.

JimmyH
01-31-12, 07:05 PM
I can't see the hp wars going much farther. I mean 650 hp? That's crazy. In 10 years, high school kids will be buying 650 hp Mustangs. That's crazy. Where does it stop? 850 hp Corvettes? I am still surprised by the new GT500. The best performance tires on the market are not going to put 650 hp on the ground, and I don't see it coming from the factory with DRs.

thebigjimsho
01-31-12, 07:17 PM
I dunno, electronics and aerodynamics have really helped. I can see that working hand in hand with added efficiency...

Lord Cadillac
01-31-12, 07:38 PM
I can't see the hp wars going much farther. I mean 650 hp? That's crazy. In 10 years, high school kids will be buying 650 hp Mustangs. That's crazy. Where does it stop? 850 hp Corvettes? I am still surprised by the new GT500. The best performance tires on the market are not going to put 650 hp on the ground, and I don't see it coming from the factory with DRs.

That's exactly it, Jimmy. Plus, kids are getting dumber and cars are getting faster. When you can get a regular car with $500 in modifications to do 12 second quarter miles, you know it's getting a little too easy to go too fast. I love fast cars as much as the next guy but how many 10 second Camaros and Mustangs are going to be on the road, driven by 20 somethings, in a few years? All it's going to take is a few EXTREMELY high speed accidents that get people killed to start seriously opening eyes.

Times are REALLY changing. A CTS-V/Camaro SS pulls up next to an M5/Mustang GT 5.0 in the street and within a few seconds they're doing over 170 miles per hour - and that's the kind of speed you need to determine who wins. It's not like it used to be. This is all going to stop very soon. Enjoy it while it lasts...

JimmyH
01-31-12, 07:48 PM
That's what I have been saying. There is no regulation on modified cars. If done poorly, some of these cars are very unsafe. Youtube is showing the world what $5k of mods can do to an already crazy fast car. I bet the government does step in eventually and starts monitoring the situation. I am not sure how they will do it, but I bet they come up with something. When there is nothing else to stop my loved ones from getting killed by reckless drivers in cars too fast for them to handle, I am all for it.

Then again, just the other day, I saw some fool in an suv try to change lanes too quickly, at too high a speed. It looked liked stability control saved his ass, but it just as easily might not have if the roads were moist. So it's not just the high hp cars. It seems as time goes on, folks get more and more reckless.

Lord Cadillac
01-31-12, 08:01 PM
Whether you're going 170 or 120, the thrill and adrenaline feel the same while racing. I seriously doubt we're having any more fun in 2012 than guys were having in the 1950s. Cars don't have to go 200mph to be enjoyable. Kids in Honda Civics have just as much fun. The problem is that there are cars that go faster - much faster - and that's what I see coming to an end...

M5eater
01-31-12, 09:27 PM
Whether you're going 170 or 120, the thrill and adrenaline feel the same while racing. I seriously doubt we're having any more fun in 2012 than guys were having in the 1950s. Cars don't have to go 200mph to be enjoyable. Kids in Honda Civics have just as much fun. The problem is that there are cars that go faster - much faster - and that's what I see coming to an end...
Civics are limited to 108 or 112 though.. so are most other ordinary cars. I really don't see anything changing, it was more dangerous to go 60MPH in those 50s or 60s cars than it is doing 100 in today's cars. yes cars are much faster, but they're also MUCH safer. The average compact has 10 airbags and HSS everywhere.

Lord Cadillac
02-01-12, 12:06 AM
I really don't see anything changing, it was more dangerous to go 60MPH in those 50s or 60s cars than it is doing 100 in today's cars. yes cars are much faster, but they're also MUCH safer.

I used to use that argument all the time but then one day I figured something out. Yes, cars are MUCH safer than they used to be. We SHOULD be able to drive 100mph all over the place because cars don't handle like boats anymore. When I had my 335i with sport suspension, I felt like I was riding on rails. This was the time I started really questioning the speed limits - which in most cases ARE ridiculous.

But...

Think of how many people were actually on the road in the 50s. Compared to now... So while our cars handle much better, the roads are much more crowded. It just doesn't work.

HansK
02-01-12, 02:13 PM
My main desire for the V would be a convertible option. I am less concerned with the HP/torque ratings of the car. I know it will have more than I NEED (although we always want more). If they can keep the car in the low 60s, it could be a great alternative to the M3

Lord Cadillac
02-01-12, 03:26 PM
My main desire for the V would be a convertible option. I am less concerned with the HP/torque ratings of the car. I know it will have more than I NEED (although we always want more). If they can keep the car in the low 60s, it could be a great alternative to the M3

The BMW M3 starts at $60,100. Cadillac would be insane to start the first generation ATS-V higher than $58k. The car needs to prove itself first.

thebigjimsho
02-01-12, 03:30 PM
I used to use that argument all the time but then one day I figured something out. Yes, cars are MUCH safer than they used to be. We SHOULD be able to drive 100mph all over the place because cars don't handle like boats anymore. When I had my 335i with sport suspension, I felt like I was riding on rails. This was the time I started really questioning the speed limits - which in most cases ARE ridiculous.

But...

Think of how many people were actually on the road in the 50s. Compared to now... So while our cars handle much better, the roads are much more crowded. It just doesn't work.Then explain how fatal accidents have steadily declined as miles driven has steadily increased? Besides, it's hard to get into accidents at 15mph...

Lord Cadillac
02-01-12, 03:36 PM
Then explain how fatal accidents have steadily declined as miles driven has steadily increased? Besides, it's hard to get into accidents at 15mph...

I really can't explain that. All I know is when I was racing around and driving aggressively - I hated the speed limits and thought of the argument about cars handling better. I always try to play devil's advocate (even with my own ideas and opinions) and came to the conclusion that street racing isn't any safer today (safer cars) than it was years ago (less traffic).

HansK
02-01-12, 03:54 PM
The BMW M3 starts at $60,100. Cadillac would be insane to start the first generation ATS-V higher than $58k. The car needs to prove itself first.

I agree that the ATS-V should be lower in base price than the M3 but most of the cost with BMWs comes from the options. The M3 (with convertible option) quickly goes over $80,000 where the CTS-V only ranges from $63-75k. I expect the ATS-V to be lower in bottom end and top end price. From what I have seen in Cadillacs compared to BMW, the base will hopefully include better options than its competition. That's one of the things I always disliked with BMW pricing is that it seems almost deceptive to have a luxury car have so few options at the base price.

JimmyH
02-01-12, 04:01 PM
BMW sells their cars based on perception. Most 3-series buyers go with a 328 because they read about the 335, hear all the great things about it, but don't understand any of it. They walk into a BMW dealer to buy one of these "ultimate driving machines" and they don't care what's in it. It has a BMW badge on the hood and that's all that matters. That won't work for Cadillac. They don't have mouth-breathing journalists selling cars for them.

0AT E03
02-01-12, 04:55 PM
The BMW M3 starts at $60,100. Cadillac would be insane to start the first generation ATS-V higher than $58k. The car needs to prove itself first.

The next M3 won't start below $65k. The F30 328i and 335i command hefty increases over the old E90 versions.

HansK
02-01-12, 05:00 PM
BMW sells their cars based on perception. Most 3-series buyers go with a 328 because they read about the 335, hear all the great things about it, but don't understand any of it. They walk into a BMW dealer to buy one of these "ultimate driving machines" and they don't care what's in it. It has a BMW badge on the hood and that's all that matters. That won't work for Cadillac. They don't have mouth-breathing journalists selling cars for them.

and that's why I can't buy a 3 or 5 series. They can be great cars but the market is so flooded with low end models, I feel it takes away from what makes the car special.

----------


The next M3 won't start below $65k. The F30 328i and 335i command hefty increases over the old E90 versions.

Well IF a convertible option does come on the market for the V, I hope it doesn't go past the mid 70's because I don't see my budget going up too much more in the next few years. I could be convinced to work a little extra overtime though :D

Lord Cadillac
02-01-12, 05:36 PM
The next M3 won't start below $65k. The F30 328i and 335i command hefty increases over the old E90 versions.

As long as Cadillac doesn't have the ATS-V starting at more than the M3, I'll be happy. I don't want Cadillac pricing the ATS-V out of the market.

JimmyH
02-01-12, 08:16 PM
I want a $35k sport sedan that's mid 12-ish, superb handling, and they can keep the gadgets and give me a low rent interior. I wish someone would build one of those.

rand49er
02-01-12, 10:31 PM
The BMW M3 starts at $60,100. Cadillac would be insane to start the first generation ATS-V higher than $58k. The car needs to prove itself first.Anything over $60k, and I'll have a tough time justifying this to my wife. If I just have to have more than the base amenities (e.g. Recaros, etc) meaning an even higher sticker price, that will force me to consider a low-mileage, one-year-old ATS-V which by definition means I'll have to wait at least one year after introduction to get one.

0AT E03
02-02-12, 08:48 AM
I want a $35k sport sedan that's mid 12-ish, superb handling, and they can keep the gadgets and give me a low rent interior. I wish someone would build one of those.

You can get a Sport Coupe for about $10k less like the BRZ and that's probably the closest thing you'll get to what you want. 2700 lbs, 200 HP, RWD.

M5eater
02-02-12, 08:53 AM
As long as Cadillac doesn't have the ATS-V starting at more than the M3, I'll be happy. I don't want Cadillac pricing the ATS-V out of the market.

I don't think we have to worry about that at all. Their whole theme is back to basics and good driver cars. One of the perks of which, is that you can build (and sell) cars cheaply, aside from the fact that GM is quite literally 5.6 times bigge (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/19/gm-retakes-global-sales-crown-with-over-9m-units-shifted-in-2011/)r than BMW (https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressclub/p/us/pressDetail.html?outputChannelId=9&id=T0124217EN_US&left_menu_item=node__5309)group. I do not expect a comparably priced Cadillac for at least 10 years, because let's face it, Cadillac is one of the smallest brands in the world, which makes all of their good cars even more shocking, but you don't charge a premium for something like that.

0AT E03
02-02-12, 02:18 PM
I don't think we have to worry about that at all. Their whole theme is back to basics and good driver cars. One of the perks of which, is that you can build (and sell) cars cheaply, aside from the fact that GM is quite literally 5.6 times bigge (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/19/gm-retakes-global-sales-crown-with-over-9m-units-shifted-in-2011/)r than BMW (https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressclub/p/us/pressDetail.html?outputChannelId=9&id=T0124217EN_US&left_menu_item=node__5309)group. I do not expect a comparably priced Cadillac for at least 10 years, because let's face it, Cadillac is one of the smallest brands in the world, which makes all of their good cars even more shocking, but you don't charge a premium for something like that.

You'd think economies of scale count, but Cadillac isn't about charing with the lesser brands (outside of having to borrow the basis of the XTS platform and the Escalade). Cadillac has unique everything. The XTS while based on the LaCrosse (and upcoming Impala) has so many differences with them it's spawned a "sub-platform" called "Premium Global Epsilon." The SRX has a unique platform (Theta Epsilon shared with the 9-4X which never really was released), the CTS/STS used unique platforms. The next gen CTS, the ATS, and Omega are all unique to Cadillac. Basically Cadillac doesn't benefit the economies of scale as it rarely shares a car with a "massive volume platform." The XTS should have been the exception, but even then Cadillac pulled a "K-Body" where the K-Body was a reworked G-Body.

M5eater
02-02-12, 02:28 PM
You'd think economies of scale count, but Cadillac isn't about charing with the lesser brands (outside of having to borrow the basis of the XTS platform and the Escalade). Cadillac has unique everything. The XTS while based on the LaCrosse (and upcoming Impala) has so many differences with them it's spawned a "sub-platform" called "Premium Global Epsilon." The SRX has a unique platform (Theta Epsilon shared with the 9-4X which never really was released), the CTS/STS used unique platforms. The next gen CTS, the ATS, and Omega are all unique to Cadillac. Basically Cadillac doesn't benefit the economies of scale as it rarely shares a car with a "massive volume platform." The XTS should have been the exception, but even then Cadillac pulled a "K-Body" where the K-Body was a reworked G-Body.
True, true. Honestly I don't know why GM hasen't dumped Cadillac in favor of Buick as it's BMW/Audi/Merceds/Lexus competitor from a numbers perspective. Buick is already a global export sales leader, they're based on good global platforms at this point and it doesn't have the numerous failed relaunches that Cadillac does in Europe. Buick fits well into this whole 'luxury for everyone' theme that's going on. Cadillac fits better into a sports car brand attack dog that can truely take on the Germans. The only way you can do that though, is to attack hard, and a rebadged malibu with some leather bit's and re-worked fascia isn't going to cut it like it would for Buick's market.

or maybe it's because they're stuck from a supplier and financial/union perspective. Bob Lutz wanted to dump hummer right when he got back to GM but they really counldn't before the bankruptcy.

I suppose the most friendly explination is that their respective brand images fit well in that Buick can go head on at the entry-luxury market that Hyundai/Kia, Acura and the like occupy, and Cadillac can take on the more traditional sports sedan and luxury markets.

JimmyH
02-02-12, 06:52 PM
You can get a Sport Coupe for about $10k less like the BRZ and that's probably the closest thing you'll get to what you want. 2700 lbs, 200 HP, RWD.

I already have a sport coupe with close to superb handling (though not as close as I had hoped) in the Camaro. My next car I want to be back to 4-doors. I am waiting for more solid rumors of this Alpha Chevy sedan.

And I thought the SRX shares with the Equinox.

----------

I will admit to being intrigued by that Subaru though. I bet that thing will get 30 mpg highway even with a lead foot.

0AT E03
02-02-12, 08:18 PM
I already have a sport coupe with close to superb handling (though not as close as I had hoped) in the Camaro. My next car I want to be back to 4-doors. I am waiting for more solid rumors of this Alpha Chevy sedan.

And I thought the SRX shares with the Equinox.

----------

I will admit to being intrigued by that Subaru though. I bet that thing will get 30 mpg highway even with a lead foot.

The Equinox is a Theta which in GM's world means one of three things the Korean designed C100 Platform (of which the Windstorm and global Chevrolet Captiva are a part of), the US\Europe modification of the C100 Platform (Saturn VUE\Opel Antara), and the GMT17X Twins (Equinox and Terrain).

So while those 3 "sub-platforms" are all related to each other and commonly referred to as Theta (even though they have little part overlap), the SRX is on a "merged" platform which takes parts of the GMNA Theta (GMT 17X) and Global Epsilon (Buick LaCrosse) and SLAMS them together to make "Theta-Epsilon" or TE.

Confusing? You can bet on it. The Global "Theta" cars are going to transition to a Global Delta based CUV platform called D2UX, while the SRX remains on TE and transitions to T2XX (that's Gen 2 TE). So the Equinox and Terrain will further diverge from the SRX in the next generation.

And on the Subie, I'm seriously looking at it versus something like an ATS-V or 4-series due to cost. Plus I think I can easily reuse my Aftermarket Stereo that's in my GTO...

thebigjimsho
02-06-12, 09:03 AM
BMW sells their cars based on perception. Most 3-series buyers go with a 328 because they read about the 335, hear all the great things about it, but don't understand any of it. They walk into a BMW dealer to buy one of these "ultimate driving machines" and they don't care what's in it. It has a BMW badge on the hood and that's all that matters. That won't work for Cadillac. They don't have mouth-breathing journalists selling cars for them.

So why did you ditch your V and settle for a CTS? Your wrong rant on the car rags is old...

JimmyH
02-06-12, 02:01 PM
It's the same old song. But the song is still true.

thebigjimsho
02-11-12, 10:04 PM
Negative.

bruff1977
02-15-12, 09:30 PM
Your thoughts on CUE being standard for the V? Configurable? Or V-Specific? What specifications?

Personally, if there is to be a third, 'V setting' if you will, I would like to see various track info (maps, conditions, etc.) available for download. Monticello, MSR, VIR, hell Laguna Seca. A sort of real time telemetry with OnStar/GPS.

JimmyH
02-16-12, 12:13 AM
You have to believe CUE will be standard on the V. Typically the V-series cars come with all the features from the premium tier of their pedestrian counterparts.

thebigjimsho
02-16-12, 01:49 PM
Your thoughts on CUE being standard for the V? Configurable? Or V-Specific? What specifications?

Personally, if there is to be a third, 'V setting' if you will, I would like to see various track info (maps, conditions, etc.) available for download. Monticello, MSR, VIR, hell Laguna Seca. A sort of real time telemetry with OnStar/GPS.

Being Linux based, I imagine there would be an "app" for that pretty quickly...

JimmyH
02-16-12, 02:39 PM
Just because Linux is opensource, does not mean CUE will be.

thebigjimsho
02-16-12, 02:58 PM
Eh, whatever. If Cadillac let little back doors open to watch DVDs in the V1 and such, it'll be done...

M5eater
02-16-12, 03:00 PM
Just because Linux is opensource, does not mean CUE will be.

It has to be to a point.. it's apart of the GNU license to use Linux.

JimmyH
02-16-12, 03:55 PM
I suppose. Plenty of folks here have talked about hacking the radios. No one has ever done it. Jesse came the closest. Even with open source, who wants to hack a radio that's going to cost $3k to replace if it's screwed up?

M5eater
02-16-12, 04:11 PM
I suppose. Plenty of folks here have talked about hacking the radios. No one has ever done it. Jesse came the closest. Even with open source, who wants to hack a radio that's going to cost $3k to replace if it's screwed up?
The way CUE works, it wouldn't cost $3K. You'd just reload the software. These infotainment centers are basically full-blown computers with OS's on a HDD. Technically you should be able to wipe and re-load the regular CTS's Nav infotainment, it's just windows mobile after all. I'm surprised I haven't heard of someone saying they've had to have it done yet to be honest.

JimmyH
02-16-12, 06:57 PM
I meant if you screw up the hardware. Computer hackers blow out their motherboards all the time.

M5eater
02-16-12, 07:53 PM
I meant if you screw up the hardware. Computer hackers blow out their motherboards all the time.
Overclocking destroys mainboards, software changes though, you're safe there. I've never heard of screwing up an operating system enough that it's caused hardware failure on anything.

JimmyH
02-17-12, 01:58 PM
Oh, you need to check out the hacking boards. They hack EVERYTHING. It's not just overclocking. The bios, the chipset, everything. But then, if they fry a $200 mobo, no big deal. Just buy another one. BIOS changes are the main thing that destroys a mobo. Doesn't destroy it, per se, but if the mobo won't respond, it might as well be.

I am sure it would be extremely difficult to brick a car head unit, I'm just saying anything is possible.

M5eater
02-19-12, 09:51 AM
Oh, you need to check out the hacking boards. They hack EVERYTHING. It's not just overclocking. The bios, the chipset, everything. But then, if they fry a $200 mobo, no big deal. Just buy another one. BIOS changes are the main thing that destroys a mobo. Doesn't destroy it, per se, but if the mobo won't respond, it might as well be.

I am sure it would be extremely difficult to brick a car head unit, I'm just saying anything is possible.

DUDE.. you're talking to one of the rare super-geek super car-nut hybrids in existence here. I'm fully aware of what the dark side of computer modifying entails. I've done everything from SMP 604pin Xeon's with pin mods on a PC-DL to messing with the M17X R2 I'm typing on now. The computer I'm typing on now has a hacked Bios and is overclocked.

I understand that it's possible, but the people that typically make these changes have the $3K GM equipment to do it, given that CUE has built-in expandability, and given that the GNU license requires GM to divulge their source code, I don't think it'll take very long for people to come out with their own apps that are mostly safe to use, with the exception that they'd be a bit buggy.

JimmyH
02-19-12, 01:28 PM
DUDE...:D all I am saying is I am not going to be the one to start messing around with a factory radio. Fate suggests I will F it up.

----------

Also, I am one of the super-rare super geeks who built and welded his own computer chassis :D but I don't mess with overclocking or mobo mods

M5eater
02-19-12, 02:19 PM
Oh, yes, I hear you there. Not a chance I'm going to play guinea pig. I can't afford to throw away stuff like that if I have to try blind-reflash anything.

bruff1977
02-22-12, 11:32 AM
I'll take a mircofiber/suede headliner also...

CaddyShack CTS4
02-23-12, 12:38 PM
I'm probably going to get shit for this.. but an option for AWD. Definately 450 +- hp..

Some nice exterior / interior mix of colors would be nice. Car companies have great colors for the luxury line, but the performance gets carbon fibre, or all bland black. Although I haven't seen it in person the ATS with the black exterior, red interior looked nice for sportyness. But the beige interior with the wood trim I saw online looked amazing. Please, just don't limit the interior colors.. I was looking at the jeep grand cherokee the other day and the SRT-8 only comes in like 1 or 2 interior colors to make it "sporty". Blehhh

JimmyH
02-23-12, 03:54 PM
Sports cars like the GTR, 911 etc have very good AWD systems. But they are also $$$$$. At the ATS-V price point, I wouldn't want awd. Speaking of the Jeep SRT8, from what I read, the only reason it is possible at that price point is highly oppressive torque management.

CaddyShack CTS4
02-23-12, 04:12 PM
Sports cars like the GTR, 911 etc have very good AWD systems. But they are also $$$$$. At the ATS-V price point, I wouldn't want awd. Speaking of the Jeep SRT8, from what I read, the only reason it is possible at that price point is highly oppressive torque management.

When I was writing about the jeep srt8 I wasn't talking about them obviously having an awd system. Instead, I was talking about the interior color schemes are limited. You can't get the overland-type of interiors. I think the colors are black and gray..

bruff1977
03-08-12, 12:49 PM
Factory matte colors are the rage now... (Veloster Turbo, Citroen DS4 Racing, M3 Frozen Gray, etc.) And I really like the look. Should Cadillac jump on the bandwagon too? What colors would you like to see get the matte treatment for the ATS-V?

CaddyShack CTS4
03-09-12, 04:16 AM
Probably matte black? I haven't seen many matte colors on many new cars tbh so I'm not sure how that'd look. Didn't the cts-v get a matte black treatment on the coupe. Or was that just that justin beiber car, LOL? Just wondering but does that matte black paint job feel different if you touch the car metal? Is it like a spray can, weird feel, or is it normal sleek feel that a standard 'shiny' paint job has.

rand49er
03-09-12, 12:39 PM
Ain't my cup of tea.

Sure could save a bundle on car wax, though.

JimmyH
03-11-12, 03:01 PM
I used to think matte looked really hot. Now it just seems too cliche to me. Maybe on a Corvette or Porsche, something that is supposed to look fast. But not on a Cadillac.

concorso
03-11-12, 08:18 PM
Factory matte colors are the rage now... (Veloster Turbo, Citroen DS4 Racing, M3 Frozen Gray, etc.) And I really like the look. Should Cadillac jump on the bandwagon too? What colors would you like to see get the matte treatment for the ATS-V?As a special option at least, yes.

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I used to think matte looked really hot. Now it just seems too cliche to me. Maybe on a Corvette or Porsche, something that is supposed to look fast. But not on a Cadillac.Personally, I think it looks great on certain vehicles and horrible on others. If the vehicle has very sharp edges, very defined lines, then I like the look.

JimmyH
03-12-12, 06:29 PM
:word:

HansK
03-13-12, 12:45 PM
I could go for a matte black for sure. Lambo has a nice looking matte blue, but unless they came out with a whole line I see them just having something like a black edition that would be matte.

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I used to think matte looked really hot. Now it just seems too cliche to me. Maybe on a Corvette or Porsche, something that is supposed to look fast. But not on a Cadillac.

I think it depends on the cadillac, if we are talking your DTS style...then hell no. But I think it could work on CTS/ATS V series.

JimmyH
03-13-12, 08:28 PM
There are quite a few matte CTS-V out there. There are pictures in the V forum. I don't really care for it.

concorso
03-22-12, 12:27 PM
Id like to add an optional alcantara interior and a track computer to the wishlist.

Kluch
03-23-12, 11:15 PM
I could go for a matte black for sure. Lambo has a nice looking matte blue, but unless they came out with a whole line I see them just having something like a black edition that would be matte.

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I think it depends on the cadillac, if we are talking your DTS style...then hell no. But I think it could work on CTS/ATS V series.

Absolutely it depends on the cadillac. I'd like to see a rally yellow option for the V, maybe even orange like the hot lava offered for a limited time in 08 for the CTS.

rand49er
03-24-12, 02:28 PM
Saw a convertible the other day around here with the top down. Looked so cool. (We've had a highly unusually warm week for it being the third week in March.)

A convertible ATS-V. Hm-m ... I wonder ..........

concorso
03-24-12, 02:32 PM
Instead of a convertible ATS, Id prefer to see a built-from-the-ground-up small roadster/convertible like the Solstice or Boxster. A car that would compete with the Z4 or SLK.

Kluch
03-24-12, 08:32 PM
Instead of a convertible ATS, Id prefer to see a built-from-the-ground-up small roadster/convertible like the Solstice or Boxster. A car that would compete with the Z4 or SLK.

The NEEEEWWWW Allante-V. You heard it here first...

concorso
03-25-12, 10:12 PM
The Alante was a rebadged Chevy, and that name is forever ruined in my opinion. Eldorado wouldnt be a good name either. Eldorado should be a big 2 door.

marktanner
03-26-12, 01:13 AM
The Allante is not at all related to a Chevy. It was built on the V-body platform, which was a shortened version of the platform used for the Eldorado and Riviera. It only used Cadillac engines, too. It was also built by Pininfarina in Italy, and was famous for being transported by a 747. It was not considered to be a success, though.

I think you are thinking of the XLR, which was built on the Corvette platform, though it didn't share a lot of parts with that car, either. For instance, the XLR had a Northstar engine, and the XLR-V had a supercharged Northstar, both with an automatic only. It only came with an electric folding hardtop, something never available in the Corvette. It had it's own body, interior, and suspension, too. Calling it a re-badged Corvette is pretty far off the mark, IMO. It also was not considered to be a success, which is why it was dropped and hasn't been replaced.

The original Eldorado was first produced in 1953 as a convertible only and remained so through 1955. From '56 through 1960, there were multiple body styles, with the convertible being the Biarritz. From 1961 through '66, it was a convertible only again, the very top of the line except for the limousine. In 1967, it became the front drive personal luxury coupe built on the Toronado platform, though it was offered in a convertible off and on for the rest of it's production (remember the 1976 Eldo convertible, supposedly the last convertible to be made!). Thus, the idea of using Eldorado as a name for a convertible isn't so far fetched, though it's not the name most people would associate with a Cadillac convertible anymore.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the ATS-V, except that if they ever do decide to make the ATS as a convertible, I suppose a V version would be appropriate, since Mercedes, BMW and Audi all have high performance four seat convertibles.

JimmyH
03-26-12, 01:42 PM
The Allante has a pretty sizable cult following. The guys who still have them love them. Might not be a great car to most of us, but I respect the guys who keep them and take care of them. It is indeed a car with a great story.

As for the XLR, I have been in them, and at least the V, is one helluva car. It moves.

----------

There is supposedly a 2nd generation XLR in the works. Those who have seen the proposed specifications say it's going to be a phenomenal machine that will make the first gen look like kid stuff.

HansK
03-26-12, 03:48 PM
There is supposedly a 2nd generation XLR in the works. Those who have seen the proposed specifications say it's going to be a phenomenal machine that will make the first gen look like kid stuff.

I would love to see that. I would love a convertible but I worry about leg room in smaller 3 series size cars.

Kluch
03-31-12, 12:06 AM
I think for what it was the XLR was way too expensive the first time around. If they want to take business away from european roadsters they have to drop the price. Value luxury/performance is the niche cadillac must carve.

JimmyH
03-31-12, 10:49 AM
The XLR-V was indeed way overrpriced. But they are a steal now on the second hand market.

rand49er
03-31-12, 02:31 PM
The XLR-V was indeed way overrpriced. But they are a steal now on the second hand market.Got three all over 200 miles from me and all north of $50k. What were they new ... like $100k?

JimmyH
03-31-12, 06:34 PM
Something like that. Gizmo picked his up for less than $30k. I have seen a few other people post they got theirs around that price.

thebigjimsho
03-31-12, 06:52 PM
It was $100G on the nose. Crazy overpriced, like the STS-V...

concorso
04-11-12, 11:25 AM
I find it hard to say it was overpriced, when it was significantly cheaper then its class leader, the SL. IMO, it was under spec'd, under qualified. I think the price point was where it needed to be. To me it doesnt feel any more expensive inside then the 2nd gen CTS and derivatives. It didnt feel special.

thebigjimsho
04-12-12, 08:24 AM
You crazy.

GreaseMonkey
04-12-12, 09:19 AM
So.....back on topic.

If I were to get an ATS-V, it would probably be a daily driver. That being said I would like to see 20/30 for fuel economy. I would be fine with a twin turbo V6. 6 speed manual with launch control, oil, trans, and diff cooler. I'd also like to see the 5 stability/traction control settings that the Corvette ZR1 and Camaro ZL1 have. CUE would also be a must have.

lunarx
04-17-12, 11:30 PM
Light Weight, Manual Trans, Smooth High Revving 470HP NA V8, Gigantic Brakes.
Anything less and they should not even bother with a V model.
I'm sure a V6TT would sell just fine (probably better) without a V badge on it.

bruff1977
04-21-12, 01:07 PM
Would the cooling package (at least for the transmission and differential) be preferred as standard equipment (think ZL1) or as an option for buyers who would track their vehicle on a regular basis? I would like to drive my ATS-V on a track, but it wouldn't be a dedicated track car. So I'm thinking manufacture these components to be track capable at least.

lunarx
05-01-12, 10:27 PM
^ I agree with that.
The car should have availability of factory designed trans/diff/brake cooling for track use.
It should be standard on a V, considering the price premium.
If they are going to claim Nurburgring development then the car should be equipped to be able to run at least 3 consecutive 'ring laps without overheating it's fluids.
Time wise, that is a good benchmark to assure survival of a typical track session.

concorso
05-02-12, 10:54 AM
I dont think all the coolers need to be standard. I think they should be part of a track package that includes Recaro's, track tires, a stiffer MRC setup, maybe stiffer sway bars, a brake upgrade if the standard ATS-V wont get the brake upgrade that was promised for the 2G CTS-V, more aggressive gearing, maybe even some Aero tweaks over the standard V, a more aggressive exhaust and intake for a slight power bump, and maybe some interior detailing. They could call it the MPG package...Milford Proving Grounds ;)

----------


You crazy.Very.

rand49er
05-02-12, 12:20 PM
... They could call it the MPG package...Milford Proving Grounds ;) ...Outstanding!



This whole conversation is talking about different versions (models?) of the ATS-V. I'm wondering if GM would even embark on such a thing. The more you guys talk about it, the more I like the idea.

thebigjimsho
05-02-12, 01:02 PM
The lack of a diff cooler on the V is very frustrating. Especially since the ZL1 gets it. If its a warm day and you're really going at it, you will not be able to complete your sessions before overheating the diff...

lunarx
05-02-12, 03:35 PM
The V is supposed to be the Track Package & it should have it all.

Since the ATS is a lower priced car (even within Cadillac), these features can be included in an ATS-V and still keep it affordable, compared to past V models and the cars it competes with.

JimmyH
05-02-12, 05:18 PM
I would rather they spend the money making the car lighter. Get the V down to 3200 lbs, and you wouldn't need coolers, since the drivetrain wouldn't be as taxed.

rand49er
05-07-12, 04:58 PM
I've already PM'd someone about this (I couldn't stand to sit on it any longer, it had been a whole three hours), but a little birdie said something about NA V8 in the V.

Mind you, I know it's a rumor (isn't what they call it when you've heard it about fifth hand?), but I just love this speculation stuff.

lunarx
05-07-12, 06:49 PM
^ Nice rumor.
If you hear any more like it keep us posted.

Jock itch
05-07-12, 09:55 PM
I've already PM'd someone about this (I couldn't stand to sit on it any longer, it had been a whole three hours), but a little birdie said something about NA V8 in the V.

Mind you, I know it's a rumor (isn't what they call it when you've heard it about fifth hand?), but I just love this speculation stuff.

As a prospective buyer, this rumor makes me happy. No V8, no sale for me. I'm holding off my purchase until these rumors are verified by GM.

bruff1977
05-07-12, 09:57 PM
^^Right... That is an awesome rumor. I'm all for it coming to fruition. Sooo... Pricing has been released for the non-V ATS, and the 3.6 starts at $42090. Here's to the ATS-V starting under $50k... even with that rumored V-8...

rand49er
05-07-12, 10:40 PM
^ Nice rumor.
If you hear any more like it keep us posted.Will do, Ernie.

I'm seriously considering that if this is true, I'll throw a maggie on it as soon as a kit becomes available. That's how much I love my current setup.

bruff1977
05-26-12, 12:32 PM
The (even more extreme) weight loss has validity. Maybe a few (if not all) of the development engineers for the ATS should have some input for the V... I wonder if they met the limits of weight loss without using exotic materials...

thebigjimsho
05-26-12, 12:51 PM
Funny, I remember talking to one of the engineers at the Cadillac Driving Labs in Nov '08 at Monticello.

In asking of future improvements to the CTS-V, the engineer didn't think a bump in the 556hp was gonna happen. He did think the next improvements would be weight reduction.

Since the next CTS is the stretched Alpha, I guess he was telling the truth...

rand49er
05-31-12, 07:32 AM
A Gen 3 CTS-v in a stretched Alpha could weigh, what ... ~3,700 lbs? Wouldn't need all of that 556 hp then.

Or would you?

thebigjimsho
06-03-12, 12:07 PM
I would guess more than that. But if it could come in around 4,000, that would still be a big improvement...

V-Love
06-04-12, 01:53 AM
This car needs a naturally aspirated V-8 making at least 450hp. They should give us some room to play with beefed up internals. It needs to be, hands down, lighter and faster than the M3 and V1. It should be a real track package. Best when it looks like a sleeper on the outside. They should add all the technical wizardry that's available, especially in the audio/video department. Optional ridiculous interior features like a mini-fridge or crazy leather choices(animal types), fur somewhere(not pimpy). Not blingy but more wild than the exterior. I definitely would like a new option that I don't know I need yet.Interiors should be completely customizable. Its a luxury brand....get luxurious.

M5eater
06-04-12, 08:51 AM
A Gen 3 CTS-v in a stretched Alpha could weigh, what ... ~3,700 lbs? Wouldn't need all of that 556 hp then.

Or would you?

all of the next gen super sedans still troll around with 4200-4300lb curb weights. a v8 with a lot of low end torque in a car that's ahead 200-300lbs off the competition will go a long way.

curvedinfinity
06-07-12, 04:10 PM
I think GM is heading in a fantastic direction with the ATS, so I have no doubt the ATS-V will be awesome. As an '11 CTS-V owner, chances are high I'll grab an ATS-V next. I'm ambivalent about motor choice as long as it has around 450 hp or more.

My one wish list request is a very sophisticated rear differential, incorporating torque vectoring. -- I'm not asking for AWD with torque vectoring, I'm asking for RWD with torque vectoring.

rand49er
06-13-12, 10:49 AM
Will do, Ernie.

I'm seriously considering that if this is true, I'll throw a maggie on it as soon as a kit becomes available. That's how much I love my current setup.Here's an article about the 2014 CTS with another prediction that the motor will be a TTV6:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-cts-2014.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter



S (http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-cts-2014.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)orry, Ernie.

CadzillaTN
06-13-12, 10:53 AM
Its it too late to ask them to redesign it?

Maybe just paint a backbone on it?

TheCaptain
06-13-12, 03:08 PM
I was going to point out the article that rand49er did, but he beat me.

TTV6 is looking to be most likely!

rand49er
06-14-12, 12:38 AM
I was going to point out the article that rand49er did, but he beat me.

TTV6 is looking to be most likely!By the wording of their statement, they could just be reiterating previously stated predictions. Didn't seem like anything new or profound.

FreddyG
06-19-12, 04:57 PM
Since this is a wish list, here goes:

V8 power (preferably an LS7, but Very cost prohibitive, but after all, this is a wish list :) I'd settle for an LS3 though)
DCT trans with launch control (BMW or Porsche PDK style, but easier to engage) or an already mentioned 8 speed automatic.
Carbon black (like on the Centennial Vette or 45th Camaro) or Diamond white color.
19" wheels (I somewhat agree on 18's, but they'd have to fit over the 6 piston CTS-V front brakes :))
Panorama roof
Good seats to hold you in while cornering. They don't have to be Recaro's, at least adjustable bolsters would be nice.
CTS-V mesh style grilles would look Great too.

I can probably think of more stuff, but that's good for now! C'mon Caddie, just build it!

JimmyH
06-19-12, 05:45 PM
^you just built a $65000 ATS-V.

concorso
06-20-12, 10:50 AM
^you just built a $65000 ATS-V.With the LS7 and DCT, yes. With a well tuned slushbox and the LS3 replacement, thats mid-high 50's.

concorso
06-20-12, 10:54 AM
I dont want a twin turbo V6. It must be the V8. BMW is going back to their bread'n'butter with the new M3 afaik, I6 with 2 or 3 turbos. I want the ATS-V to use GM's best performance lump, the new V8. 450 hp is a must.

lunarx
06-20-12, 02:02 PM
With the LS7 and DCT, yes. With a well tuned slushbox and the LS3 replacement, thats mid-high 50's.


I dont want a twin turbo V6. It must be the V8. BMW is going back to their bread'n'butter with the new M3 afaik, I6 with 2 or 3 turbos. I want the ATS-V to use GM's best performance lump, the new V8. 450 hp is a must.

Who here would not be the first at their dealer to line up for a LS7 DCT at $65K?
That's totally worth it and think how much you could save not having to mod it (heavily).

I'm glad to see more of you agreeing that it's not even up for debate, if the ATS-V isn't a V8 its a non-car.
It's not enough to flatter the competetition with a 2nd best effort, people in this market want to buy the best a manufacturer can build.

rand49er
06-21-12, 10:15 AM
... It must be the V8. BMW is going back to their bread'n'butter with the new M3 afaik, I6 with 2 or 3 turbos. I want the ATS-V to use GM's best performance lump, the new V8. 450 hp is a must.I don't follow BMW and can't speak knowledgeably about what they're doing, but this car simply has to compete.

GM: You better be listening.

M5eater
06-21-12, 01:27 PM
I don't follow BMW and can't speak knowledgeably about what they're doing, but this car simply has to compete.

GM: You better be listening.

it's not just the M3, the B8 rs4 is confirmed to be using the rs5 4.2L V8 with 450hp

FreddyG
06-21-12, 02:20 PM
^you just built a $65000 ATS-V.

You're probably right, but it'd be Nice (and might even be worth every penny)`!

Cadillac probably wouldn't want to build something that would perform better than a CTS-V.

JimmyH
06-21-12, 02:38 PM
It would most definitely be nice, except for the DSG part. I don't trust direct shift transmissions. And I prefer manual anyway.

But an LS7 powered ATS-V? :drool: helltotheyes

thebigjimsho
06-21-12, 10:51 PM
There is hypocrisy here.

People want a DCT type trans, but why? Because its the best of an automatic and a manual. You choose gears, it does it fast. But its not the purists route.

But then it has to have a V8. Why? If a TTV6 gets as good power and better mpg, then that should be the choice.

Don't give me latest tech in one argument and then traditional think in the other.


If you want a V8, you better be demanding a true manual transmission, PERIOD.

lunarx
06-22-12, 12:10 AM
There is hypocrisy here.

People want a DCT type trans, but why? Because its the best of an automatic and a manual. You choose gears, it does it fast. But its not the purists route.

But then it has to have a V8. Why? If a TTV6 gets as good power and better mpg, then that should be the choice.

Don't give me latest tech in one argument and then traditional think in the other.


If you want a V8, you better be demanding a true manual transmission, PERIOD.

I'm perfectly happy with a manual and I'm fairly certian GM plans to offer manual, as an option, since they don't have a DCT.
Although they could easily buy the same DCT that Nissan does.
If they did offer a DCT, I can't find a valid reason to object, although I might not want to pay the extra money for it.

I'm not concerned with gas mileage, so I don't see a TT V-6 as a better option than a LS V8.
Although people claim turbos make the same power as V8's they don't offer the same driving dynamics or reliability.
A TT V6 is not a car I want to drive, but to some it will probably be fine.

Honestly, the only thing I like about GM is the LS V8.
If they loose that, I would loose interest.

rand49er
06-22-12, 10:27 AM
...Honestly, the only thing I like about GM is the LS V8.
If they loose that, I would loose interest.GM is so-o tight-lipped about this with rumors on both sides, it seems to be almost a toss up right now between the TTV6 and a V8 ... which, if you're reading this GM, must make you happy as pigs in s--t.

Frankly, I could go either way, but the power has to put the ATS-V ahead of the competition.

M5eater
06-22-12, 10:35 AM
If you want a V8, you better be demanding a true manual transmission, PERIOD.

I would be shocked if they didn't offer a 6MT and a DCT together.

BMW designed a special transmission for a Market in which they likely expect to sell <10K units, and the 6060 is so prolifically used in LS-V8's it wouldn't cost them anything in development $$$.


A DCT is unrealistic anyway, I expect a 6L80E with tap shift, but GM does not have a history of out-sourcing major components like this for special circumstances. They had to put a lot of their projects on hold during the restructure, their 8 speed autos included, so I'm sure a DCT isn't even a glimmar in an engineer's eye just yet except maybe for a future C7.

I'm not concerned with gas mileage, so I don't see a TT V-6 as a better option than a LS V8.

The goverment's concerned, which mean's GM's concerned. That's all that matters.

atssponge
06-22-12, 02:50 PM
First wish: They would hurry up an produce this car. I will be at the dealer and buy it off the truck. For the love of God, build this car right now!

Now then, a clutch. Plain and simple. I want one. The hell with autos and DCTs. More to tune or break. This is a fantasy, but no drive by wire. I hate the delay and the numbness. A steering shaft, again no bywire. This should be a no brainer, but Bluetooth stock without the need for some audio package. Twin turbos or a V8 would be fine. For you auto (and drag) fans, I would hope for a 6L90e not an 80e. The Z06 rear dif at a minmum. ZL1 diff even better. A sunroof would be good too.

P.S. First post. Glad to be here.

M5eater
06-22-12, 03:14 PM
I would hope for a 6L90e not an 80e.
a 90E isn't necessary here, a 80E is more than capable of handling 450HP. Iirc they don't start breaking until you past 500whp infact.

JimmyH
06-22-12, 05:55 PM
Direct shift gearboxes are immature. Just look at the spectacular problems with the VW GTI and Nissan GT-R. no thanks.

M5eater
06-22-12, 06:23 PM
Direct shift gearboxes are immature. Just look at the spectacular problems with the VW GTI and Nissan GT-R. no thanks.
DCT is a dual clutch transmission
DSG is a direct shift gear box.

JimmyH
06-22-12, 06:30 PM
they are the same thing. Just different names. All direct shift transmissions have dual clutches. That is how they are able to directly shift from one gear to the next with no time lapse between shifts.

Personally, I don't see the point. With conventional planetary-gearset automatics now being able to pre-stage upshifts, who cares if your shift time is 0.05 or 0.00 secs?

JimmyH
06-22-12, 06:32 PM
And while I am sure the more expensive Nissan and Audi units are not quite as bad, the VW DSG is horrible in extreme heat or stop-and-go driving. And utterly intolerable if it's both. It's like being in a car with someone who is just learning how to drive stick.

M5eater
06-22-12, 08:47 PM
they are the same thing. Just different names. All direct shift transmissions have dual clutches. That is how they are able to directly shift from one gear to the next with no time lapse between shifts.

Personally, I don't see the point. With conventional planetary-gearset automatics now being able to pre-stage upshifts, who cares if your shift time is 0.05 or 0.00 secs?
Don't tell BMW that :P
they're able to pre-stage when in WOT throttle situations like straight-line acceleration. There is no pre-staging while modulating throttle on a road course. It's a big difference, but DCT's and DSG's still have some problems anticipating which gear is going to be selected and can take even longer than the slush box, and the DCT would add another 100-150lbs over a 6L80E.

JimmyH
06-22-12, 09:59 PM
that's a very good point. these DCT and DSG typically have the next upshift ready. Downshifts are not instantaneous.

thebigjimsho
06-23-12, 01:03 AM
I would be shocked if they didn't offer a 6MT and a DCT together.

BMW designed a special transmission for a Market in which they likely expect to sell <10K units, and the 6060 is so prolifically used in LS-V8's it wouldn't cost them anything in development $$$.

A DCT is unrealistic anyway, I expect a 6L80E with tap shift, but GM does not have a history of out-sourcing major components like this for special circumstances. They had to put a lot of their projects on hold during the restructure, their 8 speed autos included, so I'm sure a DCT isn't even a glimmar in an engineer's eye just yet except maybe for a future C7.


I'm strictly talking consistency with an argument on this forum. If you demand a V8 in the purist form, then don't yap about wanting a DTC or DSG...

atssponge
06-25-12, 02:42 PM
a 90E isn't necessary here, a 80E is more than capable of handling 450HP. Iirc they don't start breaking until you past 500whp infact.

Wish list is not a necessary list. Why wouldn't we want more head room with little weight penalty? And 450 WHP is nothing these days. I sure as ship don't want a tranny on the high end of its max torque. Guys are burning up the 80 all the time. People will predictably follow stupid with this car and then complain why did GM make them so weak. It is all moot for me as I will NOT buy this car as an auto or DCT.

M5eater
06-25-12, 03:09 PM
Wish list is not a necessary list. Why wouldn't we want more head room with little weight penalty? And 450 WHP is nothing these days. I sure as ship don't want a tranny on the high end of its max torque. Guys are burning up the 80 all the time. People will predictably follow stupid with this car and then complain why did GM make them so weak. It is all moot for me as I will NOT buy this car as an auto or DCT.

I wish the ATS-V had a Porsche PDK 7 speed or audi-stronic, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Similiarly, a 6L90E probably isn't going to happen for the simple purpose of vastly over-engineering the car. This won't be a 4300lb 551ft/lb vehicle. It's going to make a lot less power, and it's going to have to move a lot less mass.
Also,
The ATS will not have 450whp.
Second, The 6L80E is in every 469HP, 4300lb STS-V
Third, The 6L80E is in lots of pickup trucks/SUV's with LS2-sized power plants and they do just fine, including every LS3 corvette and LS3 powered , 2 ton G8 GXP.


a 6L80E in a 3700-3800lb 450hp ATS is going to leave plenty of breathing room.
I'm just saying, that realisticly, it makes sense that they'd use a 6L80E in this situation. Considering we're close to launch time for the ATS and all the powertrains have 6-speeds, we're going to get this trans (and not the new 8speeds) in this car.

concorso
06-26-12, 12:20 PM
Don't tell BMW that :P
they're able to pre-stage when in WOT throttle situations like straight-line acceleration. There is no pre-staging while modulating throttle on a road course. It's a big difference, but DCT's and DSG's still have some problems anticipating which gear is going to be selected and can take even longer than the slush box, and the DCT would add another 100-150lbs over a 6L80E.The DCT would add 100-150 lbs in weight over a 6L80? Meaning that a DCT would be about 250-300 lbs heavier then the 6060?

concorso
06-26-12, 12:22 PM
First wish: They would hurry up an produce this car. I will be at the dealer and buy it off the truck. For the love of God, build this car right now!Welcome. I agree. Build the damn car allready! :) The more I read about it the more I want it desperately. I hate to say it, tho, but V8 is deal breaker for me. No V8 (or 6M, but we know it will get this) Ill probably move backwards to an E9xM.

tpellenb
06-27-12, 11:10 PM
Welcome. I agree. Build the damn car allready! :) The more I read about it the more I want it desperately. I hate to say it, tho, but V8 is deal breaker for me. No V8 (or 6M, but we know it will get this) Ill probably move backwards to an E9xM.

I would be very happy with a twin turbo V6 ATS-V provided it made the power. Love what forced induction does to smaller displacements. Besides, I see the cannibalizing of CTS-V sales as motivation to not fit the ATS with a V8.

Maybe there is nothing In the rumor mill but I'm surprised you guys haven't mentioned a supercharged V6. They supercharged the CTS 3.6 V6 and put it into the Ciel to the tune of 380hp(?). I feel like achieving 420 is just a matter of tuning.

lunarx
06-28-12, 12:18 AM
I would be very happy with a twin turbo V6 ATS-V provided it made the power. Love what forced induction does to smaller displacements. Besides, I see the cannibalizing of CTS-V sales as motivation to not fit the ATS with a V8.

Maybe there is nothing In the rumor mill but I'm surprised you guys haven't mentioned a supercharged V6. They supercharged the CTS 3.6 V6 and put it into the Ciel to the tune of 380hp(?). I feel like achieving 420 is just a matter of tuning.

You would not want a supercharged V6.
That's even worse than a twin turbo V6.
There are more heat soak and parasitic loss issues with superchargers.

I like that Cadillac is building a lightweight performance car.
However, I'm embarassed for them for admitting that they needed BMW to set the bar for them.
Now it's as if they feel happy to limit their performance to BMW levels, when they are finally in a position to beat them.

I'm open to all cars in this segment but I would really respect Cadillac for putting the legendary LS in the ATS-V.
It's the best performance engine they have and it belongs in their best sedan chassis.
Nobody else could touch that combination.
A buzzy TT V6 is not going to put Cadillac in the lead, it just assures they will remain 2nd to their competition.

JimmyH
06-28-12, 12:22 AM
Unfortunately, forced induction is the order of the day. It seems like the manufacturers are doing it to satisfy the greenies. They can say "look; engines are getting smaller."

lunarx
06-28-12, 01:09 AM
Unfortunately, forced induction is the order of the day. It seems like the manufacturers are doing it to satisfy the greenies. They can say "look; engines are getting smaller."

TT LS V8 sounds good then.
I'll settle for 5.5L

concorso
06-28-12, 09:00 PM
Unfortunately, forced induction is the order of the day. It seems like the manufacturers are doing it to satisfy the greenies. They can say "look; engines are getting smaller."Jaguar just announced they are dropping the 5L V8 from the XJ, replacing it with Supercharged V6.
When the greenies start buying these cars, then their opinions should matter. Until then, I want a V8. The Camaro will get a V8 when it gets this platform. The ATS-V must have a V8. If not the V, then the superV. If not a Super V, then the uberSuper V. If not V8, then I might skip the TTV6 altogether. Ill stick with the 2.0T, new turbo plus supporting mods. The TTV6 ATS-V would have to have som much unique parts from the rest of the lineup to even get me interested.

rand49er
06-28-12, 09:35 PM
More talk about a TTV6 and a V8:

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/06/caddy-considering-ats-coupe-v-series-variants-and-more/

JimmyH
06-28-12, 09:58 PM
I don't understand why all these sources keep saying a V8 would add weight. I can't imagine a twin turbo V6 weighing significantly less than an ohv V8.

thebigjimsho
06-29-12, 12:36 PM
I don't understand why all these sources keep saying a V8 would add weight. I can't imagine a twin turbo V6 weighing significantly less than an ohv V8.

The LS motor is lighter than many DOHC V6 already, nevermind the addition of boost adders...

M5eater
06-29-12, 12:52 PM
I don't understand it either. The B8 RS4 and RS5 must not exist in their eyes.

Fuel economy? The 1st gen CTS with an LS6/LS2 was putting out better MPG than the M3/C63/RS4 do today!

The biggest problem a V8 ATS faces is ignorance.

JimmyH
06-29-12, 02:07 PM
I got better fuel economy with my 05V than I did with my 09 CTS4.

lunarx
06-29-12, 02:18 PM
.....The biggest problem a V8 ATS faces is ignorance.

Quote of the day!

What is so "new tech" about Turbo engines?
There is a long list of suposed "new tech" turbo cars from the past that became obsolete when the LS (and other good NA engines) got developed.
Aside from the GTR, what turbo car, in stock form, ever beat an LS for less than 2 x the cost?

JimmyH
06-29-12, 02:30 PM
The GT-R is a cheater. Take aways its DSG and five-gear 1/4 miles, and the CTS-V would blow it away.

thebigjimsho
07-01-12, 01:28 AM
Come on, I loved my LS6 and its excellent fuel economy. But that was very much gearing. City mpg was down. A turbo 6 putting out 400hp could potentially get near 30mpg.

rand49er
07-01-12, 09:37 AM
I don't understand why all these sources keep saying a V8 would add weight. I can't imagine a twin turbo V6 weighing significantly less than an ohv V8.Lot of discussion of this issue over on gminsidenews. Placement of V8 vs TTV6 and it affects weight distribution also discussed.

Bottomline is weight would not be adversely affected with a V8, or at least it would be measured in ounces not pounds.

The fact is, the image of high tech (TTV6) vs old-school (OHV V8) may drive this with the marketing types at Cadillac/GM.

JimmyH
07-01-12, 02:39 PM
sad but true

rand49er
07-01-12, 11:15 PM
They really, really, really should do both. I mean do some such luxury platinum version with the TTV6 to appeal to the hoity toity crowd PLUS do a more ballzy, track-ready, bad-boy version with the V8.

Yeah, yeah ... I'm dreaming again.

atssponge
07-02-12, 02:50 PM
I wish the ATS-V had a Porsche PDK 7 speed or audi-stronic, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Similiarly, a 6L90E probably isn't going to happen for the simple purpose of vastly over-engineering the car. This won't be a 4300lb 551ft/lb vehicle. It's going to make a lot less power, and it's going to have to move a lot less mass.
Also,
The ATS will not have 450whp.
Second, The 6L80E is in every 469HP, 4300lb STS-V
Third, The 6L80E is in lots of pickup trucks/SUV's with LS2-sized power plants and they do just fine, including every LS3 corvette and LS3 powered , 2 ton G8 GXP.


a 6L80E in a 3700-3800lb 450hp ATS is going to leave plenty of breathing room.
I'm just saying, that realisticly, it makes sense that they'd use a 6L80E in this situation. Considering we're close to launch time for the ATS and all the powertrains have 6-speeds, we're going to get this trans (and not the new 8speeds) in this car.

No sure why you are trying to prove your point. I own a 6L80 L76 3900LB car and I can tell you it is very easy to bump up to the torque rating on it. Sure this car will be lighter, but not 1000lb lighter. ~3200 is still pretty heavy. Not to mention the granny OEM TM settings to keep all autos in one piece. I will use a third peddle or no V for me. You can have your PDK as I rather heel toe and match gears rather then count paddle blips (abrupt weight transfer is not for me).

concorso
07-03-12, 12:33 PM
No sure why you are trying to prove your point. I own a 6L80 L76 3900LB car and I can tell you it is very easy to bump up to the torque rating on it. Sure this car will be lighter, but not 1000lb lighter. ~3200 is still pretty heavy. Not to mention the granny OEM TM settings to keep all autos in one piece. I will use a third peddle or no V for me. You can have your PDK as I rather heel toe and match gears rather then count paddle blips (abrupt weight transfer is not for me).IF a DCT were to happen, it wouldnt replace the manual. It would replace either the auto, or both auto and manual.

CIWS
08-01-12, 08:57 AM
I wish it were cheaper.

lunarx
08-01-12, 12:10 PM
Am I off base saying the ATS is the worst looking car in recent Cadillac history?
Too tall, narrow and boxy.
If it didn't have a V8, I'd be embarrassed to be seen in it.
With its lack of visual appeal, its going to need a mean sounding V8 exhaust note and some real serious power to get any respect.

GM had a Turbo V6 in the 89-90 Grand Prix. Some people thought it was cool but only because there was no V8 available that would fit in that car.

thebigjimsho
08-01-12, 12:31 PM
I think it looks great.

lunarx
08-01-12, 12:42 PM
It needs a wide body treatment.
The interior is great though.
The silly headlights can be fixed with tint.

JimmyH
08-01-12, 01:29 PM
It's another one of those cars for whom pictures do not do it justice. You have to see it in person to appreciate it.

Like the CTS-V, I am sure the ATS-V will have a more aggressive stance.

lunarx
08-01-12, 02:46 PM
The current TV commercial is spectacular, so at least it is being marketed properly.

concorso
08-02-12, 05:20 PM
Am I off base saying the ATS is the worst looking car in recent Cadillac history?
Too tall, narrow and boxy.Yes, I think you are 'off base'. You own a 1st gen, like myself. That is the very epitome of tall, narrow, and boxy. Im not in love with the ATS yet, tho I havent seen one in person. Some of the styling is a little to blingy for my tastes. Tinted headlights, grill, and the V treatment should look fantastic, tho. The ATS looks good enough that as long as it drives like everyone whos driven it, says it does, then Im sold. Im absolutley in love with the interior. For comparison purposes, I love the exterior of the new 3er, but seriously dislike the interior. IMO, the new 3er is a 5 of 5 on the outside, and a 2 of 5 on the inside. The ATS is a 4 of 5 on the outside and a 5 of 5 on the inside. I want one badly.

bruff1977
08-06-12, 02:57 PM
So the Performance and Premium line ATS have 18" x 8" up front and 18" x 9" out back... The V should increase tire/wheel diameter and width by an inch front and back.

I like the dark grille with the chrome surround (2 piece). That would be nice for the V treatment also, or at least as an accessory.

HansK
08-06-12, 03:52 PM
Am I off base saying the ATS is the worst looking car in recent Cadillac history?
Too tall, narrow and boxy.
If it didn't have a V8, I'd be embarrassed to be seen in it.
With its lack of visual appeal, its going to need a mean sounding V8 exhaust note and some real serious power to get any respect.

GM had a Turbo V6 in the 89-90 Grand Prix. Some people thought it was cool but only because there was no V8 available that would fit in that car.

If by recent history you mean "since the ATS and XTS came out" then sure that's understandable. If you're talking about history that goes back to your current vehicle, then you're pretty close to alone on that one I bet.

lunarx
08-06-12, 05:03 PM
If by recent history you mean "since the ATS and XTS came out" then sure that's understandable. If you're talking about history that goes back to your current vehicle, then you're pretty close to alone on that one I bet.

The CTS-1, CTS-2, STS, XLR, DTS were all very nice looking cars, from first sight.
CTS-1 was actually good looking enough that the CTS-2 was a bit underwhelming untill people warmed up to it more (exterior excluded of course).
CTS-1 was a very good seller and its the original V that was a huge part of building this forum.
Clean examples of all the above cars still catch my eye today.

I think the ATS looks "nice", but too "plain Jane", (although the interior is outstanding).
However, since its the "entry level" Cadillac, that's probably intentional, so it does not up-stage the higher end models.
I just hope they flare the fenders for the V version and put a real engine in it, then it would be good.

Having just saw an XTS in person yesterday, I now say that the XTS is the worst looking Cadillac in recent history.
That car had no visual apeal at all and for $60K it will be a very tough sell.

JimmyH
08-07-12, 06:09 PM
Having just saw an XTS in person yesterday, I now say that the XTS is the worst looking Cadillac in recent history.
That car had no visual apeal at all and for $60K it will be a very tough sell.

Time will tell, but as for now, they can't keep them on the lot. I am betting the ATS is going to be the same way. We will just have to wait and see how long the booming sales last.

SS1LE02
08-17-12, 07:03 PM
Am I off base saying the ATS is the worst looking car in recent Cadillac history?
Too tall, narrow and boxy.
If it didn't have a V8, I'd be embarrassed to be seen in it.
With its lack of visual appeal, its going to need a mean sounding V8 exhaust note and some real serious power to get any respect.


you're high, right?

lunarx
08-17-12, 07:50 PM
you're high, right?

I'd have to be high to get excited about its looks.
I think it's very plain looking (not necessarily bad looking).
I could accept the plain apperance of the ATS, if it gets a real engine.
Otherwise, it just comes off as a lower price alternative to the class leading cars (from other manufacturers).

By recent history I meant CTS-1, CTS-2, STS, XLR, even DTS which all looked better.
I'm not going back any further than that, for obvious reasons.
ATS is at least better looking than the XTS (now that I saw an XTS in person).
Funny because the XTS looked great in pictures.

I don't get why GM is all secretive about what the V is getting.
Just tell us already so we can get in line for one or move on.

HansK
08-17-12, 09:08 PM
I can't fathom how the ATS is more boring looking than the STS. Hell, the design of the ATS is built off the design of your 05-V. It's the progression from that, getting more bold not more bland.

You sir confuse the hell out of me.

JimmyH
08-17-12, 09:52 PM
I don't get why GM is all secretive about what the V is getting.
Just tell us already so we can get in line for one or move on.

because they don't know yet

EnvoyBu
08-18-12, 01:13 AM
because they don't know yet

Oh they know alright. You can bet the barn it'll be the 3.6TT too...

JimmyH
08-18-12, 01:06 PM
The ATS-V is a year away. I highly doubt they have finalized the design yet.

EnvoyBu
08-19-12, 05:26 AM
The ATS-V is a year away. I highly doubt they have finalized the design yet.

The motor has been chosen though.

JimmyH
08-19-12, 01:32 PM
I would bet an 11th hour change is not out of the question.

EnvoyBu
08-19-12, 06:17 PM
I would bet an 11th hour change is not out of the question.

Interesting...

Jinx
08-20-12, 01:26 PM
No shortage of opinion here. I'll add mine.

If ATS-V is announced with a GenV V8 and manual transmission within the next nine months, I'll buy one.

GM, are you paying attention?
V8, sale. No V8, no sale.

It's that simple.

I know what you're thinking: "he says that now, but wait until he sees the specs on this TTV6." No. Stop that.
V8, sale. No V8, no sale. The V8 is the only engine I trust you not to screw up. Performance is guaranteed. Aftermarket is guaranteed. Respect from the cognoscenti is guaranteed.

I know what you're thinking: "German sedan buyers demand high-tech powerplants and do not see the smallblock V8 as such." No. Stop that.
V8, sale. No V8, no sale. Look, the German-entranced won't like your V6 either. They have V8s and I6s; a V6 is plebeian by comparison.

I know what you're thinking: "A TTV6 can deliver better city fuel economy; it's the engine we need above the NAV6." No. Stop that.
V8, sale. No V8, no sale. TTV6 is mainstream thinking; ATS-V is the tip of the sword, not a CAFE achiever. It must be the best you can do, and if Corvette's V8 isn't the best you can do, GM is far more lost than I thought and excuse me while I dump my stock...

I know what you're thinking: "A TTV6 is where the market is headed, and where Cadillac needs to be. The V8 is nothing but a stopgap." No. Stop that.
V8, sale. No V8, no sale. The V8 is GM's heritage. The V8 is GM's identity. Quit being embarassed by the thing that not only defines you but has rescued your reputation. Not just GM's, Cadillac's. Be honest. CTS-V and its smallblock V8 was the best ink you ever had and made you legit again. Not leveraging that market strength is equal parts arrogance and insanity.

I know what you're thinking. "The ATS-V needs to differentiate itself from the next Camaro." No. Stop that.
V8, sale. No V8, no sale. You don't differentiate yourself by coming up short. The next Camaro is a two-door with no luxury trimmings; it's a different market anyway. It's not like V8 fans will just buy a Camaro if there's no V8 ATS-V.

I know what you're thinking. "Some buyers actively state a preference for a TTV6, including some rabid performance fanatics." No. Stop that.
V8, sale. No V8, no sale. Bird in the hand.

I know what you're thinking. "But the TTV6 really is going to be great. We swear." No. Stop that.
V8, sale. No V8, no sale. I've read your press releases before. Sorry, I don't trust you, not enough to buy an image-performance car with your new TTV6 from you. Not in the wake of the 2.8L TTV6 and the blown Northstar.


Build a TTV6. Make it the star of the new CTS lineup. Sell it in volume, if you can. Make it great. Drop it into the ATS-V when it's a real proven thing, and when buyers demand the engine you've built, not just what they think you could build.

Thanks for listening. I hope you take it to heart.

.Jinx

lunarx
08-20-12, 02:40 PM
^Nice Post!

I know what you're thinking....
GM needs to put a V8 in the ATS-V.

If you think otherwise,
No. Stop That.

thebigjimsho
08-20-12, 03:24 PM
I've now owned 2 V8 Vs. For the ATS-V, I'd accept a TTV6. To claim they're clueless if they don't make it a V8 is ignoring the amazing work they've done on all the V series cars, to date.

Cadillac has my utmost trust to kill it again with this V...

JimmyH
08-20-12, 04:15 PM
Once again, I'd prefer a V8. But I would accept a turbo V6, as long as there is no lag.

EnvoyBu
08-20-12, 05:25 PM
TTV6 hooked up to an 8 speed automatic or 7 speed manual...

JimmyH
08-20-12, 05:25 PM
I am still trying to imagine driving a 7 speed manual.

lunarx
08-20-12, 07:28 PM
If you had torque, you would not need a 7 (or 8) speed.
They would just gear 5 & up for highway cruising anyways.
Only Gears 1-4 are for acceleration or track use.
(Maybey 5 briefly on a real fast track.)

I think the current transmissions are fine, until they can deliver a dual clutch.

In fact the current V8 is fine too ; )

thebigjimsho
08-21-12, 01:03 AM
If you had torque, you would not need a 7 (or 8) speed.
They would just gear 5 & up for highway cruising anyways.
Only Gears 1-4 are for acceleration or track use.
(Maybey 5 briefly on a real fast track.)

I think the current transmissions are fine, until they can deliver a dual clutch.

In fact the current V8 is fine too ; )

Um, 5th gear in my V is very much needed. And you need 6th to hit 191...

lunarx
08-21-12, 04:46 AM
With a 7th gear you could hit 220 :o
Looks like we need a TT V8.

lunarx
08-21-12, 04:50 AM
For the TTV6 supporters, wouldn't you want reverse flow heads, like the M5?
That system seems to work real well based on HP/L.

concorso
09-10-12, 07:07 PM
So, lets assume the V gets the V6TT...who will be the 1st to drop in the small block? An LS7 perhaps? Lingenfelter? Hennessey? Cadillac better do something absolutely spectacular with the V6TT (450 hp, no turbo lag, retuned Magnaride, warrantied factory performance support) otherwise I might just buy a 2nd hand ATS 2.0L with Magnaride, and send it to a tuner for a V8 swap. They had better work extensively on the V6TT exhuast note as well. The M3 will sound great, you can bet on that.

JimmyH
09-10-12, 07:15 PM
I think it's safe to assume if GM doesn't go V8 with the V, someone will drop one in. I would like to see SLP work their magic. They seem to have the best bang for the buck.

JimmyH
09-10-12, 07:18 PM
besides, unless GM goes bankrupt again, there will be a 3rd gen CTS-V. And while this is solely my prediction, I am going with 3600 lbs and 560 hp LSA for the CTS-V3.
i might as well make my prediction for the ATS-V as well. 3400 lbs (more extensive use of composites than the ATS) with a 400-450 hp V6.

bruff1977
09-10-12, 08:58 PM
I think it's safe to assume if GM doesn't go V8 with the V, someone will drop one in. I would like to see SLP work their magic. They seem to have the best bang for the buck.

The Hennessey VR1200 got me a little imaginative about what they could do with the Alpha chassis. Reputation nonwithstanding...

M5eater
09-10-12, 10:40 PM
For the TTV6 supporters, wouldn't you want reverse flow heads, like the M5?
That system seems to work real well based on HP/L.

I would have mixed feelings on the subject,

On the one hand it would be an overall better design for a stock engine.

On the other hand;
it's fugly
it's hard as crap fit larger turbos on
it over complicates the design
The exhaust goes straight over the trans-tunnel as opposed to the sides/ meaning the clutch flywheel are heated up faster,


I'd take side-mounted turbos over scorpion style tyvm.

concorso
09-15-12, 11:27 AM
besides, unless GM goes bankrupt again, there will be a 3rd gen CTS-V. And while this is solely my prediction, I am going with 3600 lbs and 560 hp LSA for the CTS-V3.
i might as well make my prediction for the ATS-V as well. 3400 lbs (more extensive use of composites than the ATS) with a 400-450 hp V6.400 would be a big FAIL. 450 is a must.

concorso
09-15-12, 11:30 AM
I think it's safe to assume if GM doesn't go V8 with the V, someone will drop one in. I would like to see SLP work their magic. They seem to have the best bang for the buck.I want an LS7 and a D3 widebody kit. A set of BBS CK's too...:)

JimmyH
09-15-12, 01:34 PM
I would love to see an LS7 put in the ATS-V. Widebody? :ack:

thebigjimsho
09-17-12, 08:56 PM
I think it's safe to assume if GM doesn't go V8 with the V, someone will drop one in. I would like to see SLP work their magic. They seem to have the best bang for the buck.

lol wut.

M5eater
09-17-12, 08:59 PM
400 would be a big FAIL. 450 is a must.
450 will likely be necesarry given the F30 isn't vastly heavier than the ATS. I believe a 335i F30 curbed <3600 in C&D's review, and we can expect the F30 m3 will curb very near that given that it's also getting a I6.

Dr. Design
09-17-12, 09:43 PM
We think that this car would offer more of a balanced approach rather than brute power and straight line acceleration. Dont get me wrong, having a burly V8 in a lightweight chassis will go a long way. But having plenty of power on hand with a dialed in chassis would please the masses one would think.

We have enough LS's and LS Race Engines sitting around our warehouse, I wouldn't put it out of the question that you might see a D3 ATS powered by something with at least 8 cylinders.... After looking in the engine bay, we have a few ideas of what can and cannot be done.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

M5eater
09-17-12, 10:24 PM
America has always been about speed.

Hot raw nasty speed.


That's not to say I disagree with you, clearly Alpha is designed to be a drivers car, but I don't believe GM will opt for that over winning in straight-line acceleration. Half of car rags dedicate 1/4-1/2 of the car's specifications list to straight line figures.

lunarx
09-17-12, 11:03 PM
If balance is the desired result, thats more reason to dump the TT V6 and go NA V8.

Dr. Design
09-18-12, 02:11 PM
I am sure there will be plenty hot raw nasty speed when they roll this car out. They seemed to be VERY focused on what they were trying to accomplish with the ATS platform. Personally, I think that as long as the car beats the target market car in all categories, then they should have some satisfaction.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


America has always been about speed.

Hot raw nasty speed.


That's not to say I disagree with you, clearly Alpha is designed to be a drivers car, but I don't believe GM will opt for that over winning in straight-line acceleration. Half of car rags dedicate 1/4-1/2 of the car's specifications list to straight line figures.

Dr. Design
09-18-12, 02:14 PM
Well reading between the lines and speaking to one of the drivers from the Indy series. The TTV6 that they are using in INDY is VERY balanced. If we were to do a built V6, we can make just as much power as we could with a built V8. Although I would say a V8 would be a kick in the pants given this vehicles weight.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


If balance is the desired result, thats more reason to dump the TT V6 and go NA V8.

blacaddy
09-28-12, 12:24 PM
ATS-V= ~3300lbs vehicle weight....~450hp+ V-8, naturally aspirated with ~375+lb-ft torque>>trying for around 7 lbs. per hp....choice of manual or auto.....choice of rear or all-wheel drive (get the power to the pavement ala Porsche Carerra4)... ATS-V specific performance exhaust...ATS-V specific gauges with tachometer oriented design...How about some new colors such as a real red, a dark red, dark blue and maybe a non tint white.......Kiss principle in play here with the engine choice>>>current LSA V-8's have proven it, ask the bimmer/merc guys with their "On the tech edge" motors as they are watching the taillights of a CTS-V getting smaller(usually).....And as a final wish>>>Tinman are you with me?>>>ATS-V Shooting Brake

M5eater
09-28-12, 12:31 PM
ATS-V= ~3300lbs vehicle weight....~450hp+ V-8, naturally aspirated with ~375+lb-ft torque>>trying for around 7 lbs. per hp....choice of manual or auto.....choice of rear or all-wheel drive (get the power to the pavement ala Porsche Carerra4)... ATS-V specific performance exhaust...ATS-V specific gauges with tachometer oriented design...How about some new colors such as a real red, a dark red, dark blue and maybe a non tint white.......Kiss principle in play here with the engine choice>>>current LSA V-8's have proven it, ask the bimmer/merc guys with their "On the tech edge" motors as they are watching the taillights of a CTS-V getting smaller(usually).....And as a final wish>>>Tinman are you with me?>>>ATS-V Shooting Brake

Audi Does AWD 4 doors, they have for nearly 30 years. They loose to the M3. Every. Time.

You know why the panamera turbo S does well? (I'm assuming you meant panamera, since the Carerra is a coupe)
because it starts @ $175K.

blacaddy
09-28-12, 02:02 PM
Didn't mean to give the impression I am a big Porsche fan>>> just using carerra4 as an example of a 400+hp all-wheel drive system and not the body style>>>could have used Bentley or Bugatti as examples I suppose....... not sure the drive system is what makes the WhaleAmera cost $175K>>>maybe$75K for a name and a left hand key and $100K for the engineering/car?....

Remember we are wishing so we can wish for a 4wheel drive system that provides the fastest off the line times coupled with handling in the rarified league dominated by the CTS-V ....Good statement with the "Hot Raw Nasty Speed" M5eater >>>I like that<<<It will be fun to see what Cadillac comes up with >>>CTS-V proves they are more than capable.

JimmyH
09-29-12, 03:41 PM
Big power+AWD=lots of potential drivetrain problems. Porsche and Audi circumvent this with expensive hardware. Chrysler does it with oppressive torque management. Take your pick. Unless you will be happy with an $80k ATS-V.

Jinx
10-01-12, 01:11 PM
3300 lbs? with AWD? and a V8? The RWD car is already over 3500lbs with the V6; Camaro tells us the V8 will add another 80lbs or so. What's AWD going to add? What other strengthening will we need? I see a 400lb chasm between reality and this wishlist.

JimmyH
10-01-12, 03:47 PM
The base ATS is about 3300lbs. If they make even more extensive use of lightweight materials, they could feasibly offset the additional 300lbs or so that the V would add to that. At least some of it. I would say somewhere between 3400-3500 lbs if they throw some more magnesium and carbon fiber around.

I am betting folks would line up to buy a 3400 lbs, 450 hp, $60k ATS-V.

JimmyH
10-01-12, 03:47 PM
The base ATS is about 3300lbs. If they make even more extensive use of lightweight materials, they could feasibly offset the additional 300lbs or so that the V would add to that. At least some of it. I would say somewhere between 3400-3500 lbs if they throw some more magnesium and carbon fiber around.

I am betting folks would line up to buy a 3400 lbs, 450 hp, $60k ATS-V.

lunarx
10-01-12, 05:33 PM
AWD??
I doubt that is under consideration.
They said they were targeting the M3 not the RS4.
Besides AWD completely squashes the lightweight intent.

For the engine, they just need to decide if they want to beat the M3 on Gas Mileage or Acceleration.

Yes, a 3400lb 450HP $60K V8 Manual ATS-V would get me in line.

JimmyH
10-01-12, 06:16 PM
yeah, no way they put awd on the V.